Sometimes We’re Just an Option

So here’s the scenario:middle finger to tyranny

A woman goes on three dates with a man. She has sex with him on the 3rd date. The holidays come around and he goes quiet for a while. She decided to give him the benefit of the doubt and believe him when he said they’d get together after the holidays. So the holidays end and they go out again. (It’s not clear to me how this date came about and who contacted whom first. When info like that is left out of the story, I’m always a little suspicious. But suffice to say they went out again. The day after their 4th date she sent the guy a text saying she had a good time and how it was nice to see him. He never replied and she never heard from him again.

The woman clears up a few points:

The “contacting over the holidays” was mutual but limited, i.e. she sent him a text that didn’t require a response, days go by, he sends her one that says his phone has been dead, she responds. Days go by, texts sent again – but only very few and no conversation was initiated on either part because they were both busy.

As for his intentions: it was quite clear they were both very interested in the beginning. He definitely pursued her, contacted her, discussed how much he liked her. Then disappeared. I think that’s the point: the dudes that show clear signals of interest, do the contacting, etc, so you feel like you’re on the same page. I agree that having a conversation is probably a good thing, but they also met online – which inofitself allows the assumption that you’re looking for a relationship.

My question is this: Where are these “clear” signs of interest? If she had to initiate the text exchanges over the holidays and if he was taking days to respond to her texts, how is that a “clear sign of interest?” To me, that’s a sign that the guy is moderately, if that, interested. Which is sort of typical for those early stages of dating, no? You’re speaking as though when all men do this – initiate contact, express interest – that they should somehow be held to that for an indefinite amount of time. What’s that saying about a woman’s right to change her mind?

As for how meeting someone online allows someone to assume that the person they’re dating is looking for a relationship…that’s a pretty slippery slope. Online dating also “allows” one to assume that the person they met is who they say they are…and how often does that not happen? Especially now. Maybe it’s me, but I assume that any guy I meet online ISN’T looking for a relationship until he tells me he is.

This is a scenario that, I think, constantly get misconstrued. I don’t think the guy’s lack of response had anything to do with the fact that she expressed her interest. I think he had to do with the fact that, from the beginning, she was just an option. And a man is allowed to decide for himself whether he wishes to pursue said option or not. Could he have been playing a game? Absolutely. But I think it’s really dangerous for women to assume that any time this happens, a man is “playing a game.” Sometimes they are. Other times they’re just making a decision that is right for them. Just like we do.

It seems like men get villianized unfairly for this. While I don’t like the fact that he fell off the face of the earth after he slept with her and find it disrespectful, the whole men/conflict thing has been beaten to a bloody stump around these parts. Everybody is allowed to decide whether or not they wish to pursue something with someone. Everybody is allowed to date with their own motivations or agendas. Where they become bad people is when they’re disingenuous about said intentions. Meaning they lie. If your friend made it clear what she was looking for upfront, before she slept with him, and he said he was seeking the same thing and really liked her and that he saw a future with her beyond a few dates, well he’s a not so nice person. But if that conversation never occurred, then the woman in this scenario proceeded at her own risk.  Here’s a good rule of thumb: If you question whether a man’s intentions are sincere, it’s best to proceed slowly. Either something about their behavior is tripping your internal triggers OR you’re carrying with you remnants of disappointments past and you won’t be able to give the guy a fair shake.

Sometimes it’s not that men are scared off by hearing or experiencing a woman expressing interest. Sometimes, believe it or not, they’re showing mercy by disappearing. Once a woman states her intentions, a man with a conscience is quite likely to pull back. If a man knows he’ll never be able to return her interest/courtesy/honesty on a comparable or respectful level, he can’t in good conscience proceed. The goal is to do this before he does too much to encourage the woman to believe otherwise. There is thing as a good man in a bad situation. What keeps him a decent man is that he sees the potential for hurt feelings and removes himself from the situation, instead of stringing you along for his own amusement. It’s actually smart for a woman to tell a man that she’s enjoying getting to know him. It will weed out a lot (but not all) of the men who aren’t on the same page.

If someone is interested in you, taking the initiative is not going to throw things in to chaos. Could he have been scared off by her revelation? Only if he wasn’t interested in getting to know her better and was just looking for sex. Or if he had been juggling options, she was just one of them, and he chose someone else. This whole “they’re a game player” thing is kind of overwrought in my opinion. If a woman can pursue just sex, or can require time to “figure out how she feels”  before she has sex, so can a man. Sure, men might not need time to determine if they’re ready for sex. But they do need time to determine if they wish to pursue something on an ongoing basis.

Sometimes I think the real hurdle for women is that they find it hard to believe that men have their own set of needs and their own comfort zones. Men don’t want to waste their time, either. And while they might not have  a problem with having sex with someone they’re unsure about, they do not want to become obligated to someone that they do not truly enjoy and with whom they feel comfortable.

There was another blog post recently where the woman went out on two dates with a guy, but decided by date 2 that he wasn’t relationship material. So she decided to have sex with him because, while she didn’t see him as Mr. Right, he fit the bill for Mr. Right Now. Perfectly acceptable. Four or Five days later after their 2nd date (and the sex) he sent her a text asking her where she’d been and what she was up to the next night (Friday.) She said she had plans early in the night, she said, but would be around after 8:30. He never responded. She wondered what was up and why he disappeared. Well, he was treating her as an option. Just like she had treated him like an option by deciding he wasn’t relationship material. We females are not the only ones who can do that, you know :)

I don’t think the man in the original scenario was playing a game or scared off by how the woman told him she enjoyed his company. I think he just wasn’t all that interested in the first place.  He rode it out, so to speak, and made a decision. He just didn’t tell your friend. Does that make him a bad person? Well, he’s not the most polite or courteous, that’s for sure. But again, the blow off or Fade Out is not exclusive to men. Men and women use that approach.

The real inconsistency here is how common it is for women to argue their right to take similar approaches to dating that they believe men take. Yet when that gets turned around on them, they’re thrown off their game and revert to behavior that is more commonly attributed to women – over analyzing, over thinking and assuming that games are being played.

Figuring out if you’re interested is not playing a game. That’s an integral part of the dating process.

 

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44 Responses to “Sometimes We’re Just an Option”

  1. nikki04 Says:

    First, I’d like to point out that there is being played with, as in a game, and there is The Dating Game. The idea that we have to wait so many days for a phone call, that we have to play hard-to-get on some level, etc. Dirty Knickers is laying them out pretty well: http://dirty-knickers.blogspot.com/2011/01/cant-read-my-poker-faceor-can-you.html.

    It’s the idea that, if you don’t play That Game, people sometimes assume you’re “too attached” and thus can scare them off. They don’t listen to what you do or say, or even their own feelings. It goes from fun and casual – to weird and complicated, just because you’ve put someone out of their comfort zone.

    Now. That’s not to say doing this isn’t a good litmus test for another person. Absolutely it is. I’m just saying I would prefer people take a look at The Dating Rules and decide they can ditch them.

    Honesty leads to a bigger issue. I don’t agree that we should just allow for the Blow Off. Sure, it’s a good way to show you’re not interested, and I fully agree with the points here about it. However, I don’t think it’s a good way to be dating. Why not be more upfront and honest? Why not send the “hey let’s be friends” text? What’s wrong with expecting honesty? In addition, I think 90% of the time, when women complain about The Blow Off, it’s because it is in SUCH conflict with the previous experiences. If the dude wasn’t completely interested in things, i.e. ok with you as an “option”, his actions should show that. And sometimes I don’t doubt that they do – and the end of those things? We don’t overanalyze. We know. BUT. It’s the AWESOME dates, with chemistry and goodnight kisses and “text me when you get home” and “can’t wait to take you out again” dates followed by the disappearing act that get us pissed off.

    Why be so misleading in your behavior? I think we ALL need to be held more accountable to how our actions and our words affect other people. PERIOD.

    In general, despite this, I agree with Moxie here, and I explain further in these two posts: http://womenarefrommars.wordpress.com/2011/01/11/want-to-grow-some-balls-try-a-lil-honesty/ and http://womenarefrommars.wordpress.com/2011/01/13/the-blow-off-part-two-deal-with-it/

    The final point I’d like to make is this he’s-not-that-into-you thing. While it’s not fully expressed here, the idea is still present that he’s just really not interested, so be done with it. Yes, of course, sometimes that’s the issue. But sometimes it’s not. And yet, we allow men to use that excuse any time they get cold feet, or are insecure, or make decisions about you (e.g. you’re too attached) without being honest and asking you, etc etc. I’m over letting them ALL off the hook with “he’s-not-that-into-you.”

    Why is this a problem for me? Well, one, it says there’s something wrong with the girl. You’re interested. He’s not. Therefore, whether you articulate it or not, it’s something you did/are/said/etc. I think it’s detrimental for women to have that message ALL the time – because of subtle “it’s not him, it’s you” part when maybe it’s NOT you – it IS him. His insecurities, his fear, his issues.

    Further, it immediately negates any discussion about the dude – even if it IS his issue. It also puts full authority over what happens with the man. It’s no longer a mutual experience. It allows him to “just not be interested” – no matter how that affects the woman. If he’s been acting interested, whether that’s genuine or not, it can really hurt when he disappears. I think women deserve a better explanation – and that men should take a closer look at how they behave. Saying he was just never interested doesn’t allow for that.

    That is not to say “well you should hang on to him and change his mind because it’s not you, you’re awesome” – I think the bottom line is still let him go, he’s not worth your time, no matter the reason for his disappearing. But my problem is the MESSAGE it sends: letting dudes off the hook for being honest with their behavior ahead of time, and with owning their reasons for bailing. Which MAY OR MAY NOT be his level of interest. I think, more often than not, it’s more complicated than that.

    Finally (seriously, right), I’d just like to say that I wholeheartedly agree that communication is key to relationships. Expressing how you feel and what you think and want are absolutely necessary – and also a good way to see how the other person feels. However. In the early part of dating? Who wants to have that kind of conversation? Who is even ready for that? If the other person is behaving as interested as you are, pursuing, setting up dates, calling, saying the right things, than you SHOULD be able to take that as how they feel. We’re adults. YES communication is important, but so are actions. They should be enough, especially early on. PS? If you have that conversation? My bet is the other person may not be honest – people hate being put on the spot, if they’ve been misleading you already.

    My ten thousand cents!

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    • Blah Blah Blah Says:

      Jesus. You are exhausting! Not sure if you are ready to be dating with such sensitivity & over analyzing everything. I was here once and wound up spinning myself into a hole in the ground.

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    • andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      It’s the AWESOME dates, with chemistry and goodnight kisses and “text me when you get home” and “can’t wait to take you out again” dates followed by the disappearing act that get us pissed off.

      Okay, but that’s not what happened in the original scenario. In the scenario from the post, the guy pretty much told the woman with his actions that he was moderately interested. She was the one to continue to initiate things. The guy took her out one last time, maybe to see if he was interested, maybe for a final sexual go round, and he was done. But had she just sat back and left him alone, she wouldn’t feel as disgruntled. Maybe he would have contacted her again, maybe he wouldn’t. Better to have been pumped and dumped once than twice.

      And seriously…if a guy is that ga ga over a woman then falls off the face of the earth, she shouldn’t be worrying what she did. She should be grateful that she dodged a bullet. That’s not healthy behavior.

      Sometimes people are in the moment and say things. Then they gain perspective and feelings change. It happens.

      While it’s not fully expressed here, the idea is still present that he’s just really not interested, so be done with it. Yes, of course, sometimes that’s the issue. But sometimes it’s not. And yet, we allow men to use that excuse any time they get cold feet, or are insecure, or make decisions about you (e.g. you’re too attached) without being honest and asking you, etc etc. I’m over letting them ALL off the hook with “he’s-not-that-into-you.”

      And that cuts both ways. Women use the HJNTIY excuse ALLLLL THE TIME to avoid looking closer at their own behavior. Sometimes he’s not in to you because you’re a huge pain in the ass. And let’s not act like men are the only ones who pull The Fade, as they’re not. This is what I’m talking about. You’re assigning all these bad qualities to men as if women aren’t equally guilty of them.

      Well, one, it says there’s something wrong with the girl. You’re interested. He’s not. Therefore, whether you articulate it or not, it’s something you did/are/said/etc.

      No it doesn’t. That’s your interpretation and that says more about you than anything else. That’s the opposite of what the authors of the book stated as the real definition of HJNTIY. The whole point of that saying was to explain to women that it’s not personal and not to take a guy’s lack of effort or interest personally.

      I think the bottom line is still let him go, he’s not worth your time, no matter the reason for his disappearing. But my problem is the MESSAGE it sends: letting dudes off the hook for being honest with their behavior ahead of time, and with owning their reasons for bailing.

      Okay. But if a woman consistently finds herself on the receiving end of The Fade, then guess what? She’s the one that needs to do a little introspection. If the issue is owning their reasons, then how about owning the reasons why someone might be constantly blown off? I hear A LOT about how men need to be more honest and accountable…but NOTHING about how women should do the same.

      However. In the early part of dating? Who wants to have that kind of conversation?

      But a man, after the same amount of time, should be expected to offer full disclosure to a woman that he doesn’t want to see again?? “I don’t want to tell you that I’m not looking for something casual, but you should tell me why you’re never going to see me again.” Seriously?

      If the other person is behaving as interested as you are, pursuing, setting up dates, calling, saying the right things, than you SHOULD be able to take that as how they feel.

      And herein lies the problem. Projecting how you feel about someone on to them and assuming you’re on the same page. It’s like when women talk about that magical “connection” or “chemistry” they felt on a date. Just because you felt it doesn’t mean they felt it too. Unless a guy tells you he’s looking for something more than casual, assume that he isn’t. The man might very well like the woman, and enjoy her…and he could be having the same experience with another woman and decide he likes her more. Them’s the breaks. Forget about what’s fair. If fairness was the real issue then you wouldn’t have women bitching about being asked to pay their share of the tab on the first date.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “herein lies the problem. Projecting how you feel about someone on to them and assuming you’re on the same page.” There’s also misinterpretation. When a man does/says X, a woman needs to understand why rather than assuming it’s for the same reason a woman would do/say X.

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  2. Anonymous Says:

    I met both of my long term relationships online and they both followed a similar pattern of how the interest was expressed.

    You have a first date. They set up a second date fairly quickly. On the second date they set up a third date fairly quickly. They are very very clear that they want to see you again. They do not want you to feel like they are ambiguous about things so you’ll peruse other options. (Some men do this to get laid quickly as well but the next part is what separates relationship men and non relationship men)

    Very quickly. I’m talking 2-3 weeks minimum they initiate the lets not date other people talk and if you agree they are happy to call you their girlfriend and you both fall into a rhythm of seeing each other at least once a week or more if schedules permit.

    The trouble is when these women are doing that initial dance for months and months and somehow feel scared for asking for anything more so things stay nice and vague which work out for the guy. If things are vague and he is found out to be dating other people then the girl can’t really say but I thought we were progressing towards something. The girl just ends up feeling angry and mislead but trapped because she didn’t ask for a commitment and the guy wasn’t offering one and that’s where things get messy.

    If the guy isn’t bringing up commitment and the girl brings it up and gets a bunch of wishy washy I’m too busy, I’m too this I’m too that excuses then walk. Don’t wonder what you could or said differently or if you came on too strong. You can’t come on too strong to someone who is smitten but you can for someone who is just looking for something easy and uncomplicated at the time.

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  3. Paula Says:

    I think Moxie’s analysis of this is pretty dead on, but one helpful piece of information would be how long the first three dates took.

    If the first three, culminating in sex, took a couple of weeks, and then there were several weeks (over the holidays) before date 4, then I think what happened was bad sex. If the guy is interested enough to have several dates in short order, and then got what he wants without a commitment required, if the sex was good, then theoretically he would be back for more, at least up to the point where she demanded a commitment he wasn’t willing to give.

    But if the first three dates took place over a month or more, and then date 4 took it into 2 months or more, then it was probably either that he was not that interested, or he was seeing other women and opted elsewhere.

    What can be maddening is when a guy says he really likes you (not “acts like” which obviously can be misinterpreted) but is lying because he thinks it will get him laid, or he’s simply too cowardly to admit ambivalence. It seems like that could have been going on here.

    Another pet peeve is when busy doesn’t mean busy, but means I’m not interested enough to make time for you. That gives us busy people a bad name. I went dark over the holidays because my mom was in the hospital and that was family time. But I’m sure some of the people I stopped talking to online interpreted it as a lack of interest, because the excuse is so commonly misused that way.

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  4. saywhat Says:

    “Where they become bad people is when they’re disingenuous about said intentions. Meaning they lie.If your friend made it clear what she was looking for upfront, before she slept with him, and he said he was seeking the same thing and really liked her and that he saw a future with her beyond a few dates, well he’s a not so nice person.But if that conversation never occurred, then the woman in this scenario proceeded at her own risk.”- Moxie

    This is a grey area. What’s happens inbetween this time could have a major impact on the feelings for both parties. Maturity also plays a role. It’s easy these days for people to flip a switch with their feelings basing it on stupidity such as who texted or reached out to who first. Stating you are interested could be said in a varity of ways. Every man or women is not going to come out with, “Im interested and see a future” and it’s hard to tell if it’s geniune even after a couple of months. Most of the time women operate off emotions and tend to be more understanding about things, espicially when it’s new, so depending on how it’s said in conjunction with what else is going on in eachothers lives at the time, will effect our decision making, however, to be sure, pace does play a role and women need to persue carefully regardless how the man makes them feel.

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  5. myrnagrace@aol.com Says:

    “I assume that any guy I meet online ISN’T looking for a relationship until he tells me he is.” – Moxie

    Hey Moxie,
    I hate that you ALWAYS make sense when writing about other peoples’ situations. I think you are perhaps right about your above statement. I would LOVE to think otherwise, but sigh… I’m experiencing that right now. I don’t want to rock any boats with someone that I met online & started seeing about 6 months ago – I want to see him exclusively but of course he hasn’t asked ME to see ME exclusively. I’m guessing that he’s still dating around. Yes, he totally TOOK CARE OF ME at Christmas time but I know this doesn’t mean JACK! I’m getting to the point to ask him about US because I’m sick of not knowing.

    Thank you for the above comment, Moxie. I will go back into online dating with this “new” perspective in mind.

    Love you & your column ALWAYS!
    M. Grace

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    • chuckrock Says:

      why do you have to wait for him to ask you to be exclusive? nothing should stop you from asking that question.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “I want to see him exclusively but of course he hasn’t asked ME to see ME exclusively” If he hasn’t gotten there without prompting in six months of dating, he never will. If he were interested in something serious, he wouldn’t want the risk of losing you to some other guy you were dating.

      “I’m getting to the point to ask him about US because I’m sick of not knowing.” If you have to ask, you already know the answer. That’s why you didn’t ask months ago: you enjoy him “taking care of you” (i.e. spending money on you, probably in return for sex) and don’t want it to end.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

    • Paula Says:

      >>“I assume that any guy I meet online ISN’T looking for a relationship until he tells me he is.” – Moxie

      You don’t even have to qualify that as online…you should be fairly assuming that everyone you meet, male or female, isn’t looking for a relationship until they tell you they are….because that means they’re looking for a relationship with you.

      Some are not looking for a relationship, but will end up in one in a heartbeat if they meet the right person. Some are looking for a relationship, but aren’t going to compromise what they’re looking for to have a relationship with just anyone who comes along. And some are so desperately looking for a relationship that they’ll interpret any positive interaction as a signal the other person wants one, when they should be assuming the contrary (see above.)

      Online dating provides some additional opportunities to clarify what you’re looking for by selecting certain categories, but the combination of people who lie to get what they want, and those who don’t know what they want in the abstract, needing a specific person to react to, means that you’re no better off having the definition, really.

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  6. Bill Says:

    Millionaire Matchmaker Number 1 advice for women. “no sex before monogamy” – Patti

    My favorite part. “The real inconsistency here is how common it is for women to argue their right to take similar approaches to dating that they believe men take. Yet when that gets turned around on them, they’re thrown off their game and revert to behavior that is more commonly attributed to women – over analyzing, over thinking and assuming that games are being played.”

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  7. Cricri Says:

    That just means one thing, people sleep with each other way sooner than they should. It doesn’t matter that those 4 dates happened over several months ( or maybe it does as in “not that interested), they don’t know each other. If people are too busy to make time for dates and communicate mainly through texts in the early stages, then don’t be surprised with the results.

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  8. saywhat Says:

    Also,the comment about how women should not assume the man is game playing- but women don’t know as men don’t. It is a bit abrasive and agreed they should not assume, but more often than not women are usually the proactive ones taking the lead to find out ‘what’s up’ if it is not just to be for the simple fact we are trying to figure out our own feelings about the man. I’m not saying men don’t but I believe women tend to be pretty damn good soul searchers when we want to be. We have the ability to spell out our every thought and feeling each and every day. Men, eh, it’s few and far between. If you find a good one you are lucky. They might do this but while they are going thru the motions in the beginning deciding if they like the women they aren’t going to make it a point to communicate so openly with every thought and feeling. After they have decided they really like the women, they might, but even then men just don’t make it a habit of clearing the path trail so to speak for us with how they are thinking and feeling. They don’t talk out their every emotion or thought. So it’s usually left up to the women to keep faith, be understanding, use her smarts and the same time, if they don’t have a verbally expressive man, also, help guide him to express himself so that she can protect herself, while ALSO keeping in mind, not to move to quickly until she is sure. That is a lot to juggle on a women. Where women struggle with this when emotions begin to supersede intellect and women just become a loose cannon. Sorry it’s true but I get it.

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    • Bill Says:

      But the question is why do so many women make bad choices and pick the kind of men that won’t give them what they want?

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “[Men] aren’t going to make it a point to communicate so openly with every thought and feeling.” That’s because if women knew most of what was going through our heads, we’d die virgins. There’s a reason we keep it to ourselves–even if we are romantically interested.

      “If you find a good [communicator] you are lucky.” Good communicators are created by not punishing men for being honest, not luck.

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      • Paula Says:

        If there was a way to punish men — anyone really — more harshly for lying, then that’s what most of us would do. (I suppose there are a few delusional people who would rather hear lies than face the truth, but hopefully they are few and far between.)

        The trouble is, it’s often difficult to even know about a lie, much less punish it. Obviously there’s an incentive to not get caught, and often it’s about a feeling or emotion present (or not) inside someone’s head that cannot be disproved. So we’re left with punishing behavior that, even when honest, is somewhere between morally reprehensible and dicey.

        Either you think lying is morally wrong, or you don’t. Let’s hope the vast majority do anyway, and the rest eventually have karma biting them in the ass.

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      • Bill Says:

        Technically men are rewarded for lying.

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      • Bill Says:

        Paula there are many men who have honestly said Paula I liked you a lot and I want to date you. The problem is women are so picky that they dont want the guy that would love to date them because they feel like they have standards thus they rather get treated like crap but there girlfriends are impressed!

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      • Paula Says:

        Bill…if you believe Vox, there’s no guy who has honestly wanted to date me. (Hint: don’t believe Vox.)

        I don’t believe, however, that I’ve ever been in a situation where I’ve ditched the nice guy for the bad boy. Part of it is probably my personality, in that I tend to be the best friend, Midwestern farm girl, sidekick type who doesn’t attract that many bad boys (perhaps I need some tattoos or piercings).

        But the other part which is more relevant is that honesty, values, ethics, whatever you want to call it, are very important to me, and when a guy with those qualities shows interest, I’m not going to reject him before trying to make it work.

        If my girlfriends are so hot for my guy, then they should be dating him — I’m not worried about him impressing anyone but me.

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    • Vox Says:

      Actually I agree with bill — I’m quite sure there are PLENTY of men who want to date you Paula. I just think you don’t believe they are good enough for you because they don’t match the ideal man you have in your head. So you sleep with men who DO match the ideas in your head, but they just view you as an easy lay, nothing more. That’s why you think they owe you something, because they don’t treat you in the manner you feel you deserve after sex. Meanwhile, they weren’t treating you very well prior to sex either.

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  9. pistola Says:

    Another intriguing post with great comments.

    “Why not be more upfront and honest? Why not send the “hey let’s be friends” text? What’s wrong with expecting honesty?”

    Well, I’d say that saying “let’s be friends” when blowing off someone you barely know is way dishonest. Way more dishonest than letting it go. No one is a friend after four dates AND a rejection. Let’s be realistic about that.

    I’d say that we can WISH for honesty, but EXPECTING it sets us up for failure and disappointment. The world is rife with those who do not intend to have relationships, and that’s just the way it is. I’m sort of a fan of dealing with the way the world really works rather than the way I think it should work, and adjusting my choices accordingly, if that makes sense.

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  10. Eve Says:

    let’s be friends = please let me off the hook for behaving like a shit

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  11. jean Says:

    I post a comment before ,how come I didn’t see it in here????

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  12. kinlah Says:

    I think it comes down to this. When it comes to sex allot of people have a very immature attitude towards it. They walk into the situations with a fragment of a thought and when things don’t go accordingly someone else is always to blame…hmph?
    I hope I am not coming of as being judgmental but I think the O.P. gave in way too early and instead of getting what she wanted (or getting what she believed she deserved)…she ended up being allot more confused and disappointed.
    Sex really isn’t the problem. It was her intent or assumption of what it might mean to him that got her into her current situation. If you are that emotionally attached to your groin, you are going to have to be allot more selective as too whom you give it too and why. That’s why giving up the noo-nooch isn’t always a good idea (at least not as early)….we sometimes assume that the next person will hold it with as much importance and value as we do….if we value it at all.
    I personally have seen so many women get played in these scenarios, only to lose out in the end. They seem to think the dating world is like a fast food restaurant but they want a five star meal result. Give me a break.
    Honestly, to me this means that these ladies forgot the art of studying/ researching and getting to know the individual before anything more should happen…or better yet work on themselves, learning to work on their self-value, self-esteem and being a person with a great amount of quality characteristics. So when approached you would know who is worth your time and who isn’t.

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    • Bill Says:

      Women get hurt because they want to turn sex into a relationship they played themselves.

      Millionaire Matchmaker Number 1 advice for women. “no sex before monogamy” – Patti

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  13. jean Says:

    Am I an option?

    What do you think if my boyfriend said he is going back with his ex because he has to sponsor his son with her to come to the States, by the way his son is 17 years old, he had never raise him, my boyfriend ex girlfriend left him , and went back to French, when she was 4 months pregnant.

    I don’t know is this his excuse to me or not, because before this, I asked him about his pictures with a little boy ( 3 years old) on his lap, you said last year that picture is your nephew, but I felt that picture is your son, finally he said yes, and than he told me he want to sponsor his son to the States.
    By the way this happen after he went back from French, his excused to me he went to visit his brother that is sick , I never now he has a son.

    The next day he called me, he has to bring his ex to the States also, because his ex doesn’t allow her son to live with him without her, my boy friend said, he has to do it because his son behaving badly, he doesn’t want to go to school, he is afraid he will become a criminal. I went out with my boyfriend for 1 year, do you think he is saying the truth?.I said to him why you lied to me, you said you didn’t have children, and I said how can you do this to me I thought you love me, he said we just friend, he want a freedom.One day before this happen, he talk to me, if a wedding in your native country how many people you have to invite?, I answer well sometimes they don’t have a big party, we can just go on the cruise, and I said if in the future we are married or become living together as common low partner, we should do a prenup, because I don’t want, his experience with his ex happen to us, his ex run away with all his money. Than the next day he called me, he want to sponsor his ex and his son. He still want to contact me as a friend, I said to him no, so I am Nc for almost 3 weeks now. I am really hurt and broken heart. Thanks for your help.

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  14. Vox Says:

    Honesty leads to a bigger issue. I don’t agree that we should just allow for the Blow Off. Sure, it’s a good way to show you’re not interested, and I fully agree with the points here about it. However, I don’t think it’s a good way to be dating. Why not be more upfront and honest? Why not send the “hey let’s be friends” text? What’s wrong with expecting honesty?

    I imagine that if I received total honesty from men rather than the Blow Off, here is what I probably would have heard over the last year:

    * I thought you were good enough for a shag so long as I didn’t have to work for it.

    * You looked hot in pictures, but in person I thought you were fugly.

    * You are a B list woman; an A lister just accepted my dinner invitation so you are history.

    * I thought you were “meh” and I can do better.

    * You are boring.

    * I like your personality but I feel zero chemistry.

    * Your ass looks fat in those jeans.

    I’ll pass on the honesty and “let’s be friends” fakery. If you aren’t interested, I really don’t need to know the specifics. Sometimes people just don’t connect, and really, knowing that is enough.

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    • Paula Says:

      All those sound like first-date, pre-sex, way before early-stage relationship excuses — snap judgment reactions. If you’ve had four dates and slept together at least once, then you’ve spent at least 10-15 hours together. That should be enough time to expect a little more than The Fade. It’s too soon to assume you’re in a relationship leading to a long-term commitment, but at least some kind of acknowledgment would be the decent non-cowardly honest thing to do.

      As we’ve discussed here, the Fade is often the kindest thing to do, but only after one or two dates, and not after sex, regardless of when that happened.

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      • Vox Says:

        If you feel you should receive certain consideration after having sex, you would do better to tighten up your sexual standards rather than expecting men to behave in the manner you desire.

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      • Paula Says:

        Vox, you’ve made it tiresomely clear what you think of my sexual standards, but I’m not talking about casual sex or hookups, but situations where a woman has been led to believe that she is either in a relationship or progressing towards a relationship, by the man’s explicit words.

        There are a lot of people with considerably less relaxed sexual standards than mine that follow the 3-date rule –that’s why it’s called the 3-date rule — including, apparently, the OP. (Only the OP Greg of a few days ago has had to deal with the 10-date rule.)

        And it’s not a male/female thing. There have been situations where I have decided after either a few dates or sex that it just wasn’t happening, even though I liked the guy at first. Even though it would have been easier to pull the Fade, I think it’s a cowardly thing to do.

        If your actions have caused someone to believe in your continued interest, then you need to take responsibility for that, not blame the other person for trusting you too soon. You can blame the victim all you want, but that’s just an excuse to be a douchebag.

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      • Vox Says:

        No, it isn’t a male-female thing and it isn’t just about you… at the end of the day you can NOT control the actions of other people, and that includes after having sex with them.

        This: If your actions have caused someone to believe in your continued interest, then you need to take responsibility for that, not blame the other person for trusting you too soon.

        is ridiculous. Nobody has to take responsibility for hurting you. Nobody cares. They don’t care enough to wonder about their actions and how they have affected you. You mean nothing to them. The actual sex has little to do with it – you mean very little to these guys prior to fucking them too.

        And by “you” I really mean “us” because I have been there too. The difference is, I don’t whine about people not living up to my personal standards of politeness and decency. I focus on controlling my own behavior and judgment, and accept the fact that I can’t change theirs.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “you need to take responsibility for that, not blame the other person for trusting you too soon.” Sorry, but I am only responsible for what I tell people; I cannot be responsible for the lies they tell themselves.

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      • Paula Says:

        >>Sorry, but I am only responsible for what I tell people; I cannot be responsible for the lies they tell themselves.

        We are in 100% agreement about that, CR — but you’ve made it clear you don’t lie to get laid. What I’m talking about are the people who do. We don’t have a lot of details about the OP’s situation, but to the extent he *said* he liked her, then I think it was wrong to do the Fade after sex. If he didn’t say a word, and she was just assuming it because she wanted to think he liked her, then that’s her responsibility.

        Don’t lie. Even when it’s the easiest thing to do. Even when you think a white lie is the kindest thing to do. It’s a pretty basic moral principle that of course I can’t force anyone to adhere to, but I’m not going to stop thinking it’s wrong even if everyone else does it.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “What I’m talking about are the people who [lie to get laid]” Yes, those people should be responsible for their words; however, they’re most likely lying because they don’t take responsibility for the results, so that doesn’t help their victims any.

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      • Paula Says:

        Again, if one person here reads this and goes “yeah, she probably thinks I’m a douchebag, because I did lie,” maybe it doesn’t help the victim, but it might help prevent future victims.

        Most of us figure out that we have to grow up sometime. Or the assbite from karma becomes a festering wound…

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  15. Paula Says:

    You’re right, Vox, some people just don’t have personal standards of politeness and decency, so it’s no wonder they don’t recognize them or consider them important.

    It helps to recognize when you’re engaging in a battle of wits with the unarmed.

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  16. andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    If your actions have caused someone to believe in your continued interest, then you need to take responsibility for that, not blame the other person for trusting you too soon. You can blame the victim all you want, but that’s just an excuse to be a douchebag. – Paula

    You can’t force someone to be accountable for their behavior. Either they care or they don’t. Trying to force feed them accountability rarely works. In theory, people “should” take responsibility for being insensitive or self-serving. But most people don’t, whether it be out of arrogance or shame. I think that’s a high expectation to place on someone, unfortunately. I think the people who do practice introspection and self-awareness and can acknowledge their mistakes AND apologize for them are rare. It’s the belief that this is the “typical” way of behaving is why so many people get frustrated in these situations. It’s not typical. It’s sadly atypical.

    Nobody has to take responsibility for hurting you. Nobody cares. They don’t care enough to wonder about their actions and how they have affected you. You mean nothing to them. The actual sex has little to do with it – you mean very little to these guys prior to fucking them too.

    I don’t agree that “nobody” cares. Plenty of people do know that they’ve hurt someone or been disingenuous, and they feel like shit for it. I don’t agree that everybody is some soulless douchebag. And it does tend to create this idea amongst those who think this way that it’s perfectly okay to be an asshole.

    Just because someone might believe they’re not responsible for someone else’s feelings doesn’t mean they can take it a step further and INTENTIONALLY DO OR SAY THINGS that they know will end up hurting someone. Usually those people are damaged or broken in their own way, or pissed off at themselves for being duped, and so they’ve decided that they’re going to continue the cycle of abuse so they can relieve their own pain.

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    • Vox Says:

      I wouldn’t use the term “souless douchebag.” But to expect some guy you met on Match and hung out with a couple of times to care about you is unrealistic.

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      • Paula Says:

        >>But to expect some guy you met on Match and hung out with a couple of times to care about you is unrealistic.

        Regardless of what the majority of men do, I’d hate to be so emotionally closed off that I couldn’t trust the one who does care about me, when, as Saj says, doing it right is hanging on to the one who knows how to treat people appropriately.

        And to think that doling out or withholding sex has anything to do with that discernment process is delusional — the douchebags will just find the next person to abuse, while the good guys who slept with someone they truly like (like Greg of the recent post) will be so confused that they’ll move on too.

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    • Paula Says:

      Of course you can’t force someone to be accountable for their behavior. But on a blog where we talk about how to handle dating dilemmas better and play “spot the douchebag” on an almost-daily basis, it seems appropriate to call out immature and cruel behavior for what it is.

      Most of this blog’s readership will have to deal with rejecting someone in the future, considering that most of us here are single or not in relationships that will last the rest of our lives. If one person here does it better next time, and in the process becomes one of the apparently rare people who isn’t so insensitive or self-serving, then this isn’t just a frivolous dating blog that people read for entertainment, but something that actually helps people.

      I do have high expectations of the people I date — i.e., the people who have the potential to become a life partner. Honesty is non-negotiable. I have much lower expectations of the people I sleep with, which is why Vox’s comment above, although designed to wound, really doesn’t apply. For better or worse, I’ve almost always been able to spot the difference — maybe I have enough introspection and self-awareness to protect myself. Or maybe that’s why I’m now single.

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  17. Saj Says:

    - I think the people who do practice introspection and self-awareness and can acknowledge their mistakes AND apologize for them are rare.-

    When you run into a man like that hold on to him with both hands. Every struggle, fight or rough time becomes so much easier because your with someone with empathy and an understanding on how to be a considerate human being. I’m tired of men and women who are completely self absorbed considering themselves catches when they have no idea how to treat other people with care.

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  18. sarah Says:

    Youre making him a priority while he is making you an option. No shame in it, but sex too soon typically leads to women getting attached too quickly and for the wrong reasons. Or maybe he didnt think the sex was good, and since it was only a few dates, he didnt want to stick around because he had no investment

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