Originally posted January, 2009 – 35 comments
Name: Stacey | | Location: New York , NY |Question: Hi Moxie,
I need your advice. I met this guy at a party about six weeks ago and was smitten by his charm, his looks. At the end of our conversation he offered me his phone number and told me to call him some time. I did call, two weeks later, right before Christmas. He told me he was planning on going to Germany for the holidays and through New Year’s but he could see me the night before he left. We met up and had a wonderful date- we had drinks and then I had been planning on going to a friend’s party and he insisted on coming along, not wanting the date to end. I felt amazing chemistry towards him and our good night kiss outside my apartment was very passionate. He was away for two weeks and called me two days after he returned. I happened to be moving to a new apartment that weekend and he offered to help me move. He was great-carried everything heavy, was very patient. My family was helping me too- and he was very nice to them, and we all had dinner together. After the move, he has been calling me daily, emailing, he said he wanted to meet more of my friends, and we had another great date. He wanted to make the relationship more physical, but I told him that I wasn’t ready for that yet as we had only had several dates. He told me that he had just gotten out of a four year relationship in October, that he had ended because the spark had been lost, and that he was willing to wait. I was worried that another relationship might be a little soon for him but I have been really looking forward to things progressing. Yesterday, I receive this email from a woman whose name I didn’t recognize:
“I’m sorry, this is not my normal style at all, as well as it has never been my style to read other people’s e-mails. I just think you deserve this warning as I wish I had have it myself. You are right now flirting with my “boyfriend”, who, as he told me 2 days ago, is in a committed relationship with me. I live in Germany where I met him last May. We had an affair since he was still together with his old girlfriend. He told me how we would fit so much better to each other. How he was bored by her since she is “stupid”. Yet, when he returned he tried to keep the old relationship going but invited me regardless to NY. Being rather naive I didn’t see it as a flaw of character but more as pity with his old girlfriend and a sign of a good heart. After all he is charming and one would believe him a lot. We started going out officially in November. He promised me that all mess that had happened before is finally over and that from that time on he will be with me. We saw each other since then. In fact he returned from Germany 1 1/2 weeks ago, sending me his vacation schedule so we could plan our next meeting and telling me how much he misses me. I booked a flight for March. Yet some of his reactions made me suspicious as he didn’t react when I send him the flight dates. I went through a lot with him and became very sensitive to his behavior. Since he had given me a password for his computer which, as he told me freely, he uses as well for other accounts I took a step that I never thought I would take and looked in his e-mail account. And as you can imagine it shocked me, seeing what he wrote to you about half an hour after he had told me that we are in a committed relationship that my fears are just due to distance and that they will stay until we are finally together. Today he called me again and just a little later he wrote another e-mail to you. Things are over for me, I already forgave him far to much. You should of course decide yourself what you want to do. Maybe you are better off with him who knows. Just be careful and don’t be blinded by his charm. Again I’m sorry for bothering you.” I was shocked, and forwarded the message to his account without any comment. He called me last night but I didn’t pick up. What is your advice? |Age: 24
At the very least, you owe him the opportunity to explain himself. You have NO idea who’s telling the truth here. Given that this woman took it upon herself to hack into his email account for no other reason than..well, I still can’t glean what her reason is…there’s a good possibility she’s just really young and doesn’t have much relationship experience. There’s really nothing else I can say here other than to trust your own instincts, as they rarely will fail you. You just have to pay close attention to them and not let your own “stuff” get in the way of how you interpret them.
Make note of something……….she never mentions this guy by name. In a situation like this, where someone is supposedly talking about someone with whom the have a personal or intimate relationship, they’d refer to them by their first name. We’ll be sponsoring a Statement Analysis class with LifeLabsNY in April. If you live in NYC, I highly recommend you take this course. You’ll learn some great tips for deciphering and detecting deception in others.
If I’m reading her e-mail right, he was with his 4 year girlfriend until this past October. From May to October he was in some form of a “relationship” with Germany girl. But how many times did he actually see this girl? What is UP with these women who get so attached to guy whom they barely see???? He and Germany Girl “officially” started dating in November while he was still here in NYC. He saw her again in December. Right around the time he met you. And then when she sent him her flight schedule, around this time, suddenly he wasn’t as responsive? Is this all correct? Okay. This might shock a few of you but..,…..give this guy a chance. Here’s why.
This girl was not his girlfriend. That may be what she thought, but that doesn’t mean that’s what he said. You don’t know how proactive he was in inviting her to NYC to see him. He may have said in passing “you should come to NYC” and she took that and ran with it. You know what she’s telling you. That’s it. She blows her whole argument by admitting to breaking into his e-mail account. She immediately becomes suspect and less than rational. Yes, it appears he may have cheated on his girlfriend. But again, this woman’s letter doesn’t say that she and he actually crossed that physical line. Given that she lives in a whole other continent, it’s totally possible that they only struck up some kind of e-mail relationship after flirting in person. Wouldn’t be the first guy in a committed relationship to flirt via e-mail as a way to deal with an unsatisfying relationship, would he? Something is up with her letter. I think she wants you to think they’re more serious than they are or more than he’s ever admitted to her to being.
Sounds to me like once he met you, he lost interest in this girl in Germany. He either struck up some kind of flirty relationship with her via e-mail after meeting her in May, then maybe finally consummated things in November after he broke up with his NYC girlfriend, and she’s the one who thinks they are boyfriend and girlfriend when they possibly aren’t. Sure, maybe he’s letting her think whatever she wants. But this guy never took her seriously. THAT’S why she’s contacting you. She’s angry. At him and at herself. This isn’t about her wanting to “warn” you. That’s a crock. That’s an excuse women tell themselves to justify their actions and avoid asking themself why they got attached when the guy never gave them a reason to get attached to begin with. She was someone to hang out with when he was over there. She was the excuse he needed to finally get out of his relationship. Shame on her for thinking she’d be any different from his last girlfriend.
You have no idea if he ever cheated on her or his last girlfriend. You just have the accusations of a woman who hacked into someone’s e-mail account after being willing to hang around waiting for some guy in America to leave his girlfriend. She’s hardly what I’d call a solid character witness.
Hear him out. Maybe he is a cheat. In which case, you know what you have to do. But maybe he’s not.
EDITED TO ADD FEBRUARY 2011
I’ve said numerous times how much I dislike the whole contacting the other woman or girlfriend thing. The real problem I have with Germany Girl’s letter is that she expresses no remorse for engaging a man she knew was in a relationship. Listen, I’ve done it. I’ve also always been put out to pasture once the guy broke up with his girlfriend. And as much as I wanted to contact the girlfriend and tell her what this guy did and said about her, I didn’t. Mainly because my indignation was disingenuous. I had no problem with the guy’s lack of integrity when he was screwing me. So now I’m going to act all righteous and offended? Uh, no. Even if you didn’t know he had a girlfriend and found out after you and he had hooked up, it’s just not your place to play judge and jury. It’s not. There’s always some kind of collateral damage involved with these scenarios. Why cause the unsuspecting girlfriend or ex-girlfriend possible pain? She probably already knows her relationship is over, or is about to be. No need to make it worse. Nor is there a need to dredge up history post-break up, thereby opening up old wounds. Leave the woman alone, let her heal, accept the fact that you either were duped or ignored the warning signs and move on.
I know some women will say they want to know their man is or was cheating. But how many of us would believe some random stranger contacting us out of the blue? Would you really believe someone you don’t know over your partner? And do you want to risk being accused of lying and that possible fall out? Think about the big picture before you make this decision.
I’ve been on both sides of this. I met a guy online who said he was in an open relationship. We did nothing but trade emails. In fact, I told him upfront – and put it in writing – that I had no interest in him other than to write about his experiences with open relationships. I never even gave him my full name. Just first name and email. I received not one but two phone calls to my personal phone number from his girlfriend telling me they were not in an open relationship. (How she got the number I have no idea.) Maybe they were, maybe they weren’t. Either way, the fact that the woman went to some lengths to get in touch with me scared me enough to blow this guy off. Someone who would do this, make this kind of effort, is pissed off or really, really desperate to hold on to their relationship. Only fear, a need for revenge or anger could fuel such behavior.
If a woman is driven to that, then there’s a really good chance that the man is so messed up and so emotionally abusive that he’s not worth the time.
YOUR THOUGHTS?
DATING/RELATIONSHIP/SX RELATED QUESTIONS NEEDED FOR ADVICE COLUMN!-YOUR FEEDBACK WANTED!
Get feedback from dozens of people across the country. It’s free and anonymous. http://www.moxieinthecity.net/ask-email.php
very short comment. This happened to me twice. Wives calling and saying I’m dating their husband. It can be quite ‘surprising’.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Meh at best he’s a monkey brancher and at worst he is a liar/cheater. The character of the woman sending the letter shouldn’t be taken into too much consideration.
However I’ve had it happen to me where not one but two girls warned my husband when we first got together that I was just a user and a manipulator and to be careful. That really pissed me off. It’s fine I didn’t get along with these girls but for them to try to c block me based on little to no evidence was just obnoxious so I’m glad he decided to see for himself.
Like or Dislike:
0 
1
I think just the fact that he knows someone, in another country, gave her access to his email, and will eventually find out that she contacted you and is most likely to do it again, would turn me off. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who knows people with that much propensity towards drama.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
I had a man’s wife contact me and ask me if I knew where her husband was. She got my number off his cell phone bill. I was glad she contacted me — though in this case she wasn’t trying to warn me away, just trying to pick up the pieces. I had no clue this man was married or a psychopathic manipulator – quite literally. Sometimes it can be good to be given a heads up.
I just find that women are often left to fend for themselves, in the workplace (no female mentors) or in social situations. Maybe there isn’t always negative intent.
Like or Dislike:
4 
0
He told me that he had just gotten out of a four year relationship in October, that he had ended because the spark had been lost…
I would have blown the guy off at this point, period. Personally I am interested in being in a long-term relationship, and as we know that original “spark” fades as a relationship evolves into something which may become permanent. This guy enjoys the high of dating someone new – nothing wrong with that I suppose, but it doesn’t fit in with what I want.
Getting a “he’s cheating” email shortly after hearing the lost-spark statement would totally fit in with my profile of this guy. Cheaters certainly do love the high of newness. (Though not everyone who craves something new cheats. “Serial monogamists” come to mind as an exception.) I don’t know whether I would have taken that email as gospel, but certainly the facts presented are enough for me to decide “this guy is not worth my time” and I’d move on.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
Am I the only one who thought the fact that he was pushing to meet all of her friends and family after 1-2 dates was a bit off? Like he was trying to rush into something (instant relationship??) with the OP? It’s possible that the guy is either really flaky, doing the monkey branch thing, very needy for a relationship, or likes drama (so he gives his g-friends access to passwords so he can “make” them break up with him (when they get suspicious and start to cyberstalk him???) or tries to pit women against each other over him…).
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Yuck. Way too much low-rent drama. You’re 24 — don’t get caught up in that. There’s got to be something better out there.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Something similar happened to my sister years ago, she was dating a guy for 4 years, got a call from the ‘other girlfriend’. My sister actually ended up going to her house and was shown birthday cards and other things he had given this other girl. That same year, he had even given both of them the exact same valentines day card!
I guess the other girl’s character/story is in question, but I’m sorry, where there’s smoke there’s a fire.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
I did the contacting with my ex-husband. I suspected he was cheating on me (again, for the third time), and went through his e-mail. I learned that he was not only cheating on me, but that he was also cheating on the girl that he was cheating with. In other words, he hadn’t mentioned to her (Kate) that he was married, and while he was ostensibly dating her exclusively, he was also pursuing a relationship with another woman.
It was a twisted mess. I read Kate’s e-mails to him, and I could see that he was doing exactly the same things to her that he’d done to me. I sent her an e-mail, and just said, “Your suspicions about him are accurate, he is not a good guy, this is what he did to me, and he’s doing it to you, as well.”
She ended up being one of my best allies and emotional supports during the divorce. I remember being tempted to go back to him, and talking to her by IM, and having her remind me what a bad guy he really was. I am grateful for her. In fact, we remain facebook friends, to this day, and I’m extremely happy that she’s now married to a really decent guy who treats her like a queen.
Sometimes, there really is sisterhood between women. I don’t see us as competitors. If a guy is a bad guy, I want to know.
Like or Dislike:
6 
0
FWIW, I understand that e-mail hacking is a criminal offense. If I’d known this at the time, I might not have done it, but I have no regrets. I was in the process of getting my ducks in a row to divorce him anyway once I realized he was a serial offender.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
It’s not necessarily a criminal offense. It depends on several circumstances (not limited to) your relationship with the person, the computer (for instance was it passworded, did the person give you the password, etc), what you did, how you did it, and your jurisdiction.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Something I’ll never understand: woman has an affair with a married man (or one in a committed relationship) and knows it. Man leaves wife/girlfriend for the new woman. He then has an affair on her and she’s “surprised”.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
@ Joe
I think this is because a lot of women think they can change men and they continue to believe it. They want to be the one woman that turns it all around. I think, too, a lot of men explain it away to the woman they are cheating with that it was all the wife’s fault, she was cold, mean, not affectionate, something was missing in the marriage, etc. And if you really fall for that (and who knows, sometimes it may be true) you might be blind, or just really want to believe the guy is cheating on his wife with you for ‘legitimate’ reasons. But, hey, you are the one woman after all, and you are giving him all he needs so why would he cheat? Just my theory.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
So you prescribe to once a cheater always a cheater? are people not able to learn from their mistakes?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Uh in Joe’s example the guy cheated twice in a row on two different women. That’s not learning.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
i was explaining the ‘surprise’. you are only not surprised if you arent expecting him to be faithful.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
I was dating someone. when i found out (through pix of the two of them on someone else’s FB page), i kndly let her know (via email on FB) what her lover boy had been up to. She never responded, and as far as I know they are still together. I am glad I let her know. Was not a jealousy thing. Was a head’s up….you are with a lying cheating douche bag thing,and do with the information what you will. I offered her concrete proof. But when one is in love/ thinks they are in love, they make all sorts of excuses. As for the poster, if the Germany girl offers some valid proof, I think she should heed the girl’s letter. If she plays it off, it is because it is easier to say “the lady is trouble” than the guy I am dating is pond scum.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
Or maybe she and the guy weren’t exclusive, and instead of being hurt because he technically didn’t do anything wrong, she laughed off your email because you came off like a stalker?
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
Or maybe she suspected or knew he cheated and was willing to accept that. I hate to admit it but that was me seven years ago.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
“Someone who would do this, make this kind of effort, is pissed off or really, really desperate to hold on to their relationship. Only fear, a need for revenge or anger could fuel such behavior.
If a woman is driven to that, then there’s a really good chance that the man is so messed up and so emotionally abusive that he’s not worth the time.”
Your conclusion as to the man’s state of being has no foundation.
Sometimes some people are just crazy and invent relationships that never existed or didn’t reach the level they wanted. People who behave this way are obviously very unhappy with their lives and are looking for someone else to blame for this unhappiness. Perhaps Moxie should start a course in how to MOVE ON. I see a big market out there, but then again, these people might be to ignorant to know they need this class.
Like or Dislike:
0 
1
Your conclusion as to the man’s state of being has no foundation.
Neither does yours, other than you have a penis and get in a snit any time someone suggests that a man be in the wrong. I said there’s a really good chance (which there is)that the guy is a manipulator. Not that he definitively was. There was no conclusion, just a theory. Maybe I should also start a class called Get That Chip Off Your Shoulder.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
There is a red flag that seems to have been ignored: who gives out their primary password in this day and age, especially after just getting out of a four-year relationship? Nobody. The consensus is his account was hacked, but if he gave out a password, that’s implied permissive use, no? I assume the emailer didn’t have a dragon tattoo, so we can assume she didn’t find anything she wasn’t intended to find via her elite haxxor skillz.
First observation: he most likely didn’t give out a password, but if he did, it was a password to a ghost account he has set up specifically for this set-piece.
What’s so funny about this whole setup is it doesn’t even take that much savvy to pull it off (think of Bill Paxon’s setup in ‘True Lies’ – this is pretty much a digital version of it). Doesn’t anyone find it odd, for example, that the guy was conveniently gone overseas for the holiday just after meeting someone new, and then his potential lover (who he hadn’t closed with yet) gets an email from a girl in the same random holiday location after she had resisted his attempt to get more physical?
I don’t know if this is what the suitor was pulling, but it’s straight out of How to Be a Player 101: Intermediate Edition. Assuming the suitor was playing Stacey (a better assumption than the paranoid fantasies about computer hacking, a holiday trip to Germany, an “I never do this” email from a scorned lover, etc), he succeeded insofar as she didn’t dismiss his behavior as that of a highly manipulative person, but instead asked Moxie for advice.
The suitor has demonstrated value by showing he is not only desired, but is the kind of man that provokes women into uncharacteristic behavior; he has created anticipation and subtle anxiety by taking off for two weeks; he has (intentionally or not) managed to get Stacey thinking about him enough to email Moxie back in ’09. He’s either a player, or he’s fumbling through an inadvertent genius phase. I suspect the former. The only thing that doesn’t fit is helping her move – no true player would do that, so he’s still trying to get past the chump phase of his game.
Advice to the Staceys of the world: learn Occam’s Razor, and remember it when your thinking begins to spin out of control. Also, protip: if you feel the need to look at your lover’s email, one of two things, possibly both, are true: you are paranoid and need help, and your lover is cheating on you. The thrill is gonebabygone.
Like or Dislike:
2 
1
The way I did it would have been criminal, if my ex had realized this and pressed charges. I’m quite clear on this fact.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Way, way, way too many red flags about this one. Starting with the psycho ex-girlfriend. If a man has a psycho ex (or exes), he either has a taste for crazy women…or he does things that drive normal women insane. Either way, it doesn’t bode well for you.
Like or Dislike:
1 
1