Do Men Just Want Part-Time Relationships?

Name: Lotus Blossum || Location: New York, NY |Question: For the third time in 6 months I’ve met a man online, gone out with him 2-4 times, had sex with him and then was told that his schedule constraints are going to make it hard for him to see me more consistently. Only one of them checked in on a daily or every other day basis to say hello and remind me that he was still interested, just busy. How do I know if I should stick it out and take him at his word or tell him I’m looking for someone with a less hectic schedule?
Thank you!  |Age: 39

As I said last week, there is a heavy percentage of people on these online dating sites who either aren’t capable of or interested in having one or two dates with someone or who are looking for something flexible and casual to compliment their busy lifestyle. With men, I think even if they have some down time, they’re still on those sites just looking for someone to serve as a fun and cool distraction than anything else, but are open to more should that develop.

Here’s what else I’ve noticed. The men I’ve taken a fancy to and liked were more likely to have this lifestyle/mentality, as opposed to the guys I was “eh” about. So it’s a Catch 22. The men we want to date are most often the men who are the most busy and unavailable time wise. (The emotionally unavailable guys are a whole other breed.)

I think this is a by product of our transition in to choosing Casual Dating over Traditional Dating. I don’t know if men are just no longer interested in having a full time relationship anymore or what.

As far as your situation goes, there is such a thing as being too busy. Sure, 80% of the time “too busy” means “not interested enough.” But sometimes people really are just busy. Mt friend J., a female, has a full time job and goes to business school at night. She has a handful of weddings coming up in the next few months, which means a looooot of showers, rehearsals, engagement parties, etc. As much as she might like someone, she finds herself getting caught up in plans or school or work and forgets to replies to text messages or emails and has to make plans 7-10 days in advance instead of 2 or 3.  It’s not that she doesn’t like the men that show interest. She does. She just happens to be in a very crazy faze in her life. It does happen.

Granted, more often than not it’s an excuse. But if one of these men is checking in and making effort, then there’s a really good chance he just doesn’t want you to forget him and genuinely does want to get together when things calm down. My suggestion is to keep your options open and see what happens. Keep the lines of communication open while pursuing other possibilities.

I don’t buy it. If you are attracted to men who are always too busy for a relationship then you yourself are not available but pin it on them anyway. – Saj


I’m going to disagree with this if only because she met all these men online. I think a lot of the guys on those sites, the more desirable ones, are the less available ones. They work, they’re in demand to some regard, etc. A lot of these men are not able to offer more than one night a week to a woman. And if they’re juggling women, then the time they have is even less. If there’s any screener, I’d say it’s their career or job. I’ve stopped replying to or engaging men who work in finance, law and the entertainment industry. I’ve had a few dates with a teacher and the experience has been polar opposite to what it was with the last two guys who worked in the entertainment industry. I’m sure the lawyers and financiers and studio execs and record producers provide a bit of cache. Let the other women fight for their time. The guys with the less “status-y” jobs have more time and are easier to get to know. – Moxie

On a different but still relevant note, an article came out posing the question of why “smart” men prefer or choose “less intelligent” women. One of the answers may or may not surprise you:

Here’s how it all started. Jennifer Wright at TheGloss.com recently asked CNBC financial reporter John Carney, and nine other “smart men,” why so many studies indicate that men prefer dating women who are less intelligent than they are. Carney chalked the phenomenon up to today’s “knowledge economy.” Less intelligent women have more leisure time because they aren’t financially rewarded for staying in school or working long hours, Carney reasoned, and they seek out a smart partner as a means of “economic advancement.” As Carney put it, “dumb chicks have both greater opportunities and greater incentives to try harder to date smart men than smart women do.” Carney says a hardworking hedge funder who Wright interviewed provided a similar explanation, asserting that successful men (like him, presumably) date less successful women not because they want “women to be dumb” but rather because they want “someone who prioritizes their life in a way that’s compatible with how you prioritize yours.” (Read The Full Article Here)

And a counter argument from CNBC’s Nicole Lapin:

CNBC’s Nicole Lapin doesn’t think Carney’s onto anything. Smart women have the same incentives as less intelligent women to date smart men, she contends: “First, if there is indeed more competition for [smart men] … we all know that we ‘Type A’ working women love a good fight. Second, smart women don’t shut their brains off on the weekend. (Shocker: Smart men don’t either.).” To prove her case, Lapin recalls being turned off by a guy on a recent date because he didn’t get an allusion to Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart’s “I know it when I see it” ruling on pornography in Jacobellis v. Ohio (1964). I mean, c’mon! How do you expect to win the girl without a firm understanding of legal precedent? Lapin goes on to dismiss the idea that men are interested in less intelligent women: “You guys think you want that, until you’re bored to tears and melt her plastic bits. Until you need to take her to a State dinner and she can’t smile her way out of it. Until you lose your Wall Street job and she still doesn’t understand what you do enough to help you through it, as a partner, an equal, much less stand by a poor guy.” (Read The Full Article Here)

YOUR THOUGHTS?

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53 Responses to “Do Men Just Want Part-Time Relationships?”

  1. Memoirs of a Single Dad Says:

    Rule #1 of my ‘Dating Rules for the Ladies’ blog post was to not have sex with a man on the first (few) dates. It’s widely known that a man knows within a few seconds of meeting if he wants to have sex with you or not just as a woman knows if she’d be interested in a relationship or not. However, it can take men a bit longer to decide if you’re relationship material or not. If you sleep with him too early, he’ll come to the conclusion that you’re too easy. Believe it or not, most men don’t want to be in a (long-term, monogamous) relationship with a woman that’s considered easy. At least not by the general populous.

    Also, there is no ‘rule’ that applies to all men just as there is no rule that applies to all women.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 16 Thumb down 18

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  2. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    If you sleep with him too early, he’ll come to the conclusion that you’re too easy.

    Sure. If he’s insecure.

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    • jesse Says:

      If the guy thinks you are really hot, or really a catch, it doesn’t matter when you sleep with him. He’s going to do everything to keep you.

      But if he thinks you are just o.k. or somewhat sexy, chances are that he’ll dump you right after sex. Unless the sex was great, then he’ll wait until he has a bellyful of sex, thenhe’ll still dump you.

      And of course unless the enchantment happens — thats when something you said or did make him start to realize that you have substance, afterwhich he begiins to see you as more than just o.k. and more than merely sexy.

      I think what the OP was getting at was that reaching this stage of “enchantment” is more likely for the man if the woman witholds sex for a while. A building desire has a way of sharpening a man’s focus on a woman (at the cost of everything else around him)

      If sex comes before the man has a sufficient level of interest in the woman, he’s ahead of the game — and as the saying goes, it’s best to get out while you’re ahead.

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    • Vox Says:

      I don’t insecurity has anything to do with it. Insecurity is a label we women pin on guys who reject us, much like the claims that men are “intimidated” by our brilliance.

      Having sex too quickly will not advance things into a relationship. Everyone I know who thinks that 3 is magic number to have sex ends up disappointed, because they believe sex after the third date is a path towards a relationship. It isn’t. Treating sex as a strategy move will lead to failure every time.

      As Jesse just said, if he is really into you, there is no such thing as too soon. And if he doesn’t view you as relationship material, having sex with him isn’t going to make him change his mind. How do you tell the difference? I have no idea. But what has worked for me is to only have sex when I feel the beginnings of an emotional bond being reciprocated, OR, if I honestly want to fuck the guy so badly I don’t care if I ever see the guy again.

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    • Aldonza Says:

      I don’t think it’s insecurity. I think even enlightened guys, when pressed and not punished for their opinion, will admit that they prefer women who show themselves to be selective about their sex partners. Some of it is hard-wired (primal fear of cuckholding), and some of it is wanting to feel “special” to be chosen. I feel sad that some of these guys are being written off as “insecure” because they don’t think exactly like you do.

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      • drivingmenutes Says:

        One person’s “primal fear of cuckholding” is another’s “insecure”. Anybody who has concerns about a woman’s sexual choices is “insecure” whether one believes it is primal or natural or whatever. Fear is fear.

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    • Kurt Says:

      If you think that men don’t care if a woman is “easy,” you are sorely mistaken. Men do care about this and have always cared about this information. Men are practically hard-wired to reject easy women as long-term partners.

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  3. Chianti_Z Says:

    Single dad…. I couldn’t agree with you more. There’s a double standard, and you guys are horrible. lol. I’ve told this to my female friends again and again. Sleep with him too soon, you lose. Has nothing to do with a guy being insecure. It has to do with him feeling that you treat sex as something special and its not something you do with everyone. Men want to feel special too. We women forget that.

    z.

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  4. Saj Says:

    I don’t buy it. If you are attracted to men who are always too busy for a relationship then you yourself are not available but pin it on them anyway.

    If someone is TOO busy then just don’t date or bone your friends. Casual dating and checking in is for guys who just want lots of sexual variety and not a deep intimate connection and for women who don’t know better..

    If you truly do want a relationship then don’t go for guys who are on the go go go even if they do tickle your fancy. You want a man to be with you and present right? Or do you want him gone enough so the idea of pining for him is more appealing then dealing with the reality of who he is. At least the smart men are going for women who can make time rather then the women who want men just as busy as they are. Why? If you are so damn bright and successful why do you need more money rather then just finding a guy who likes to cook.

    You answered you and other womens question of why nothing seems to work out because your spidey sense keeps pointing you to guys you KNOW will not give you a relationship either out of fear or low self esteem or god knows what else. It’s still chasing after status if you need a “smart man” (lets cut the bullshit smart man means man with degrees and more earning potential, not a guy who is fun to talk to about a variety of subjects) or a prize to be won.

    Oh no this guy didn’t get my obscure reference so I’m turned off. How is that different then a smelly hipster looking down on you for not knowing some shitty band. It’s the same person just in different tax brackets.

    Why not at least TRY to go longer then 4 date without sex. Why is that so much to ask for yourself if the same thing keeps happening but you aren’t changing your approach one iota. Bloody New York where everything is about avarice and competiton and people are just prizes to be won.

    At least in the small towns in the past what you saw within 10 miles is what you had to work with. No prince was waiting in another country to sweep you off your feet so you looked at what was there and available and worked with that. Now people won’t date if it takes an additional 10 minutes to commute or they don’t have the same amount of degrees. Heh I must be PMSing.

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    • ~R Says:

      Saj, if this is what PMSing looks like the world needs more of it.

      All these people are caught up in the rat race; and complaining about the it is part of the rat race.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      I don’t buy it. If you are attracted to men who are always too busy for a relationship then you yourself are not available but pin it on them anyway.

      I’m going to disagree with this if only because she met all these men online. I think a lot of the guys on those sites, the more desirable ones, are the less available ones. They work, they’re in demand to some regard, etc. A lot of these men are not able to offer more than one night a week to a woman. And if they’re juggling women, then the time they have is even less. If there’s any screener, I’d say it’s their career or job. I’ve stopped replying to or engaging men who work in finance, law and the entertainment industry. I’ve had a few dates with a teacher and the experience has been polar opposite to what it was with the last two guys who worked in the entertainment industry. I’m sure the lawyers and financiers and studio execs and record producers provide a bit of cache. Let the other women fight for their time. The guys with the less “status-y” jobs have more time and are easier to get to know.

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    • trojandoll Says:

      As someone who values smart men, I disagree that “smart’ means money. A teacher or an academic or even a guy who didn’t go to college but has a brain can all be smart guys and they can all have a low income. I think my husband is gorgeous, but I wouldn’t be with him if he didn’t have a brain. I can’t stand stupid people. My last boyfriend was not conventionally attractive, but again, he was smart. I make more money than both of them do. I couldn’t care less how much they make, but if they were dumb, you bet I’d care.

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      • Saj Says:

        I think it’s how these academic women are complaining how all the smart men don’t want to date them which is pretty insulting if you’re saying it’s not your fault you’re single it is men’s fault for pairing up with girls who are not me and leaving only the stupid ones left.

        Talking about IQ points and trivia is all nonsense. You don’t see the programmers, the IT guys or the engineers with smoking hot ladies if the men themselves aren’t also attractive. These women want the ivy league guys with the bucks and get angry when it doesn’t work out for all of them. It’s no different then the overachieving girl waving around her A + papers to convince to jock to date her rather then the cheerleaders. It seems stupid then and it seems stupid now.

        I think how these women use the term “smart” is not the same way you or I do but a PC way of saying no no no I’m not shallow and after status we just need stuff in COMMON. Bull crappy.

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  5. Vox Says:

    So three times in a row, the OP selected men by the same means, dated them roughly the same number of times, had sex with each of them and then heard the same “I’m too busy” story. Really, I can’t add anything more to what Saj said.

    I have to comment on this Nicole Lapin editorial, which I read in full. She met a man and had what she described as “fantastic, fun first date” but she blew him off over not getting her obscenity joke, because it proved he isn’t smart enough for her. I suspect she’ll be writing a “I’m still single but it isn’t my fault” rant in 10 years.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Seriously, right? I read that comment from her, and her ensuing rant and laughed. You’re not alone because you’re a smartypants. You’re alone because you’re insufferable. Learn the difference.

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  6. jesse Says:

    Yes, believe it or not, many men now want it all. We want to live like rock stars, or at least George Clooney, while we still have our health, money, looks and teeth. This is what they called being a Playboy fifty years ago. Only back then it was a strange notion mainstream society thought linked with being a cad, a loafer, unreliable, and morally repugnant. Only the decandent rich or the decrepit poor could pull it off. How times change!

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  7. Bill Says:

    Men/Women are both a like we make time for those who we feel “intense/excited/etc” and we do not have time for people who make us feel “ehhh”.

    The intelligence thing can be seen in many different ways. Who is more intelligent? The single women with a mba and a high power job who can not find a man at her level to have kids and etc with with. Or the women who gotten married who has two kids a good husband and etc. To me the high intelligent women on paper with the career seems less intelligent to me – less emotional intelligence she does not know how to relate to men to a point where she can have the kids, the family, and they marriage. We exist to procreate and create life together. We aren’t machines that is design to achieve and achieve. At the end of the day all the success you will have is meaningless if you do not have a family/kids/someone special to share it with. The business success may seem more intelligence but who actually cares….

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  8. trouble Says:

    My thought on all of this is that guys who aren’t willing to prioritize having a relationship are just looking to get laid (under the pretenses of having a loose relationship). I think that there are a lot of women out there who are willing to settle for the pretense of a relationship with a guy that’s highly in demand, because then they can delude themselves into the idea that they’ve caught some kind of prize or trophy. That guy is a status symbol, more than he is a person to them. There are plenty of guys out there that actually do want to have relationships, but maybe they aren’t as much of a status object.

    It’s a choice.

    As far as men wanting women who are less smart, I don’t think that’s it, at all. I think men want women who will make them a priority, and where the relationship isn’t a competition where the guy is going to be judged and discarded for not knowing the answer to some kind of legal trivial pursuit question.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “As far as men wanting women who are less smart, I don’t think that’s it, at all. I think men want women who will make them a priority,” Exactly. I would think women would look for the same as well; I certainly prioritize women I’m interested in. However, it’s very difficult for two people with challenging schedules to have a relationship. That’s not about intelligence; it’s about the demands of high-income, high-stress jobs. Men with such jobs will find it much easier to date, and therefore marry, women with lower-income, lower-stress jobs.

      “where the relationship isn’t a competition where the guy is going to be judged and discarded for not knowing the answer to some kind of legal trivial pursuit question.” I did happen to catch her reference (and I’m no lawyer), but I don’t know everything, nor do I feel the need to apologize for that. I’m looking for someone who complements my skills and knowledge, not competes with me. Ever heard of synergy?

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  9. KM Says:

    My gosh. You are all analyzing things way too much. Men like sex. Women like sex. Men like relationships. Women like relationships. Men don’t link sex and relationships the same way that women link sex and relationships. Sometimes that means that a man will hurt a woman’s feelings, because he’s being a bit selfish. But at the end of the day, these guys are our brothers, cousins, and friends. There *are* great guys out there. Stop wondering when to call him, or not, or when to sleep with him, or not. If he’s the right guy for you, it will work out. Be yourself. At the end of the day, that’s the one he’s going to fall in love with. Are you going to waste your time complaining that the wrong guy didn’t like you because you were too smart / not available enough / too trashy / not trashy enough? Who cares? The only one that matters is the one that will love you, just as you are.

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  10. Craig Says:

    You know what’s funny to me? Women are drawn to men they feel are the best providers: lawyers, doctors, finance professionals, etc. Well guess what ladies, we don’t get to enjoy a 9-5 work schedule. As a lawyer myself, I can tell you that you don’t get to have it both ways. If you want to date me and have access to my socioeconomic status, then the you have to put up with my work hours and relative lack of availability too. You see, in the real world people with high incomes are expected to work an awful lot for their money. If you don’t like it, then be sure to date someone who’s career has them home by 5 every night and never works weekends or travels for work.

    In the OP’s case, I doubt all these dudes are that busy. Most likely, they got what they came for and have moved on, with the “very busy” line being a lame way to blow her off. The possibility of being used is one of those risks we all have to take when we date. Nothing you can do about it. Just move on until you find someone who makes time for you.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      If you don’t like it, then be sure to date someone who’s career has them home by 5 every night and never works weekends or travels for work.

      Thankfully, there are more of us than there are of you in the workforce, which means more women are becoming less concerned about a man’s money making ability. Now y’all actually have to be available, interesting and good in the sack. :)

      But I agree that if a woman is looking for a partner who is around and available, requiring that a man work in a high paying career field probably isn’t wise.

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    • Capt. Jack Sparrow Says:

      As a lawyer too, I can relate and second Craig’s comment. A guy (or girl) who has a successful career isn’t usually on 9-5 hours.

      But listen up guys, we successful alpha males unfortunately don’t always realize that maintaining a successful long-term relationship takes a lot of time and effort as well … and the guys who say they don’t have “time” to put into their relationships really means they’re relying on their “status” as the magnet and glue that will keep their girl by their side. I speak from personal experience. But that’s a losing proposition, almost doomed to fail on one side or the other.

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    • Paula Says:

      <<with the “very busy” line being a lame way to<i blow her off.

      Maybe DMN thinks that’s a nicer way to end things than “I don’t want to sleep with you any more,” but it gives truly busy people a bad name. Because I agree with Capt. Jack: if you really want to be with someone, you’ll find a way.

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    • trouble Says:

      You know what’s funny to me? Women are drawn to men they feel are the best providers: lawyers, doctors, finance professionals, etc. Well guess what ladies, we don’t get to enjoy a 9-5 work schedule. As a lawyer myself, I can tell you that you don’t get to have it both ways. If you want to date me and have access to my socioeconomic status, then the you have to put up with my work hours and relative lack of availability too. You see, in the real world people with high incomes are expected to work an awful lot for their money. If you don’t like it, then be sure to date someone who’s career has them home by 5 every night and never works weekends or travels for work.

      I bet you managed to make time, at some point, for your fiance. I know that with my boyfriend, we are both busy, we travel for work, he’s also a full-time graduate student, but somehow we manage to see each other. It might be at lunch on a Tuesday, and spending the night after 9 p.m. on a Thursday, but we make it work. I don’t expect to see him every single night of the week, but we have settled into a groove that makes sure we both get enough face time. If need be, I leave work at 6 and help him rehab his house until 9 or 10 p.m. some nights, or I cook dinner while he studies. We have made “work” one of our activities that we do together.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “you managed to make time, at some point, for your fiance.” Note that Craig’s fiancée is a teacher, who works relatively short, flexible hours, which means she’s more likely to be available when he is than other, more “successful” women who put their careers first. And that apparently makes her “less intelligent” according to both sides Moxie quoted above.

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  11. Paula Says:

    I have encountered a number of men online who are there not because they’re losers who couldn’t get a date in real life, but are very busy, and content to let the women come to them (or make only a minimal amount of effort to set up dates). I have one of those kinds of jobs myself, and while I’m also online because I haven’t been meeting enough of the kind of people in real life that I want to, I go through phases where I can devote little time to online dating or doing the work to set up dates.

    I think I lost one guy this week where we’ve tried for a couple of weeks to schedule something, and things just couldn’t match up for us. He was pretty busy too, but I can see him wanting the kind of woman who was available whenever he was available, regardless of her intelligence. His first comment after reading my profile when writing to me: “You also sound cool…albeit busy. Not that I’m one to talk.” So even though our inability to get together was as much his fault as mine, it sounds like to me he already had it in his head that I was too busy to date him. Maybe I was.

    John Carney’s contribution was a snoozer…I’m sure he thought he was clever throwing in all those references to the “knowledge economy,” when all he was saying was that the dumb girls were actually pretty smart after all for figuring out that meeting a wealthy guy was one of the only ways they were going to get ahead financially. He may want to tie to the knowledge economy, but there have always been women who try to marry up and/or find a sugar daddy to support their desired lifestyle. The only thing that’s different now is that are some women who have succeeded without doing that.

    Nicole Lapin gives smart women a bad name. Too bad she’s not a lawyer, or she could hang out in the lawyer’s lounge at the Supreme Court to find lots of guys who would get her Justice Stewart reference.

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    • Paula Says:

      I found Matt Langer’s slide in TheGloss.com article the most interesting:

      >>I think some men (“some” meaning “the majority of”) derive their conceptions of “sexiness” from some combination of submissiveness/manufactured-and-or-plastic-and-or-some-sort-of-as-seen-on-TV-aesthetic/traditional-pre-Women’s-Lib-conceptions-of-A-Woman’s-Role. They’re guys who would think twice about pursuing a woman who is either 1) too busy being successful to be at home cooking him dinner or 2) too busy dressing like a professional to be shopping for the latest trends in revealing tube tops and butt-hugging jeans or 3) too busy climbing the ladder and kicking ass to be sensitive to his need to feel superior to her in every way. These men are rightly called “Bros” – but there are others!

      I know Vox doesn’t think are any guys who are intimidated by smart and/or successful women, but here’s one guy who thinks a majority of men are that way. I know personally I’m never going to be appealing to a “Bro,” for all three reasons (although I do like to cook and am good at it), so I don’t lose sleep over it — just move on. I think some geographic areas, professions and age groups are fairly saturated with them, however.

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      • Joe Says:

        I suspect that Matt Langer doesn’t see himself as “one of those men”; like Lapin, he denigrates his entire sex to make himself look good by comparison.

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        • Paula Says:

          You’re right, Joe…here’s the part I left out the first time:

          This study is one of those things that can easily seem like total bullshit, at least from the perspective of a Man Who Considers Himself Not A Bro. . . .

          So maybe what I’m saying is that it doesn’t seem irreconcilable that I should on the one hand feel as if the study is total bullshit but on the other assume that it’s probably pretty statistically accurate (at least according to the law of averages and my experience with most Men/Bros).

          But then again, most guys aren’t self-aware enough to see that they’re actually “one of those guys,” at least the ones who don’t post here… Same with women — I’m not just hatin’ on the guys. While he may be exaggerating on the numbers, and whether they’re a majority, I think he’s accurate in identifying a subcategory of men who do exist.

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  12. joe Says:

    I got the pornography joke refers to the Supreme Court decision so I guess I fit what the woman considers intelligent. However, if she drops a guy just for that, she is going to be too nit picky to be around with. I don’t go out and look for less intelligent women. I go for the one that feels right.

    Some intelligent women have high standards and think they are god’s gift to man. DING!

    Some intelligent women have busy travel schedules and they are away from NY a lot. Could do it if I was in my 20s or we have a history together but I am looking for a full-time girlfriend. Unfortunately, ding.

    Some intelligent women have consuming jobs and they could only fit you in at the last minute. The relationship will always come second. That could work if I didn’t have a tough job as well. Unfortunately, I do, so ding.

    As for the argument that a less intelligent woman wouldn’t do well at the big corporate dinners.
    My confidence comes from within so I could care less what the other senior executives think of my wife.

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  13. Capt. Jack Sparrow Says:

    Here’s the thing. If a guy sleeps with you, it usually means he wanted to sleep with you, not necessarily that he wanted a relationship with you. I think this is true for most guys. Maybe once he slept with you, he realized he wasn’t as into you as he thought while his hormones were raging (or, maybe, he realized that beforehand), and he fades. That fade is because he really didn’t really want a relationship with you to begin with, not because you slept with him too early. There could be other reasons, like the sx was bad, you displayed some red flags, he’s got emotional or commitment probs. Maybe he’s just a douche. In the end, if a guy wants a relationship with you, then he’ll make an effort to accomodate seeing you even if he’s busy.

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  14. sarah Says:

    If i am interested in someone no matter how busy I am, I MAKE time for them……get it? Sex too soon is a gamble. If it is mediocre the guy will bolt!

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 4

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      If you wait several dates/weeks to have sex and it’s mediocre, he’s probably going to bolt anyway.

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  15. pistola Says:

    Well…huh. As a pretty busy person myself, and someone who wouldn’t mind a part time relationship to start with, I’m not totally sure I see the problem here.

    Anyone with friends/a life/a job/creative outlets is gonna be busy. Especially by my age (40s). I’d be a lot more worried about a guy who seems to not have these things than one who does.

    the way I figure it, if you have a life–i.e., are an emotionally balanced person who someone would WANT to date–it’ll take some time to get to know you and see whether or not the relationship is going in a direction that would make both people want to invest more time. Most relationships won’t. A few will. Then you can talk about it at that point.

    I wouldn’t want to date someone who didn’t have a life…And as an unpartnered person, your life can really fill up with friends, activities etc. when you don’t date for a period of time, because hopefully you aren’t sitting at home eating Cheez Whiz and watching TV on your free nights. So I think busy is only a problem if it seems the person is not willing to adjust once the relationship has developed and seems like it’s going somewhere.

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  16. chuckrock Says:

    I am also an attorney so I definitely get the ‘sometimes i am too busy to date’ mentality. It happens, it is a part of the deal when you decide to do this for a living. While I got the porn reference I am sue there are many pop culture and movie references that I don’t get on a regular basis. Does this make me smart or dumb? I guess it depends on what is important to you.

    I find intelligence in women very attractive. It is one of the top things on my mental checklist when determining whether i am into a woman. I want someone who will be able to hold a conversation with me, otherwise i will get bored with her.

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  17. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    Wow, I was reading Saj’s comment at the top and for the first five paragraphs I was in complete agreement with her. So much so that I am wondering why she is allowed the make the same points that I’ve been making for say five years but, when I say it, I’m a bad guy, or “advocating” that people behave badly or make bad choices. Saj and I are right – women make bad choices and blame men for them. In particular, it is a choice to chase unavailable men and I agree with Saj 100% that most women who experience thisproblem that are deliberately sabotaging themselves for reasons known only to themselves..

    But, then I get to her 6th paragraph and everything goes horribly wrong. I can literally hear the screeching of the tires and smell the burning of rubber as her logic goes careening off the highway. What does “waiting for 4 or more dates for sex” have to do with anything. Why not wait 10 dates? That will ensure that he likes you? You can wait FOREVER to have sex with a guy not interested in a relationship and you are still not going to get a relationship with that guy. Here, I can prove it. I routinely wait 4 or 5 dates before I have sex with a woman. Not always, but routinely. And most people who read my comments here, at a minimum, think I’m emotionally unavailable and not relationship material. Are those women getting anything from me by “waiting” to sleep with me? Yes. They are getting 4 extra dates with no sex. How fun! But, still no relationship. Because I’m as free to leave after 5 dates as I was after 1 date. One has nothing to do with the other. This idea of withholding sex to get something “better” from a guy really only works if you really don’t like or care about sex that much (which is true of most of you, secretly, as I have previously proven here) You are right though that dumb ideas don’t work go over as well in NYC as in other places like Utah.

    As for the topic at hand, I don’t think men deliberately chose less “smart” women. I think men are willing to date less smart women, whereas women generally want to date “up” in terms of intelligence, wealth etc. So, the net effect is that all women – both the dumb ones and the smart ones are chasing after the same smart, rich guys – and the smart guys are dating the women who are more compatible generally without placing too much importance on thespecific indicia of wealth, status and intelligence. “Yeah, she’s cute, I’ll date her.” Etc. All else being equal, though, I think a guy generally would prefer the smart woman that understands Potter Stewart humor and also doesn’t make the guy wait 6 weeks on principle to have a little fun in bed (or, is at least smart enough to know it doesn’t matter). NYC is full of these women, by the way.

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    • Saj Says:

      You missed the logic that’s still there DMN. The waiting isn’t to make a guy like you it’s to prevent sleeping with guys who don’t like you. If the girl had been on 2 dates with these guys and that was it she wouldn’t be writing in and going what is up? Her pride and dignity would be more intact but now her feelings are hurt because she took a gamble and lost. My issue with this is why does she keep gambling with sex if it’s a 100% lose rate with busy guys she is attracted to.

      You are missing the point on how women’s minds work with this. Women offer sex as a gift thinking it will make a guy so appreciative that he will like her more when that isn’t true. Him connecting with her in other ways is what will make him into her or he is smitten right away but it’s tricky to tell him from the fakers. You lack an extreme amount of empathy or at least pretend to on this blog but can you at least understand that if a woman sleeps with 20 guys who dump her soon after that it’s really really painful for her? Sleeping with every guy who takes her out to dinner is just going to give her a one way ticket to jaded ville.

      Do women intentionally throw themselves into the fire? You bet they do. Do men lie to get there? You bet. But because some women are self destructive how does it make a guy who intentionally misleads people not a piece of shit? The two aren’t related unless your argument that it’s ok to lie to people if they fall for it or are emotionally broken enough to be a sucker.

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      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        As I said, making a guy “wait” for sex doesn’t screen out the liars, or the bad guys, or even the guys that don’t like you. Guys can wait you out. But, even posting as an empathy-lacking blog commenter, I don’t advocate lying (except as a way to spare feelings in a socially acceptable manner). I do, however, advocate that people (women in this case) acknowledge that there are “bad” people out there and accept responsibility for inviting them into their lives rather than wasting time and energy trying to make those “bad” people stop being bad. Similar to what you yourself said in your first five paragraphs while under the influence of PMS.

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        • Saj Says:

          I had a guy try to wait me out for 12 years. Sorta sucks to be him.

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        • D Says:

          DMN – how is a woman supposed to figure out whether a guy is bad news or not? You say she needs to ask herself why she’s attracted to bad guys, but then also say that bad guys can pretend to be good guys and will just wait her out anyway. You seem to be saying that a woman who’s been burned a few times should just assume her attraction mechanism is totally outnof whack and only date guys she’s not attracted to.

          I admit that if only want to sleep with a girl and perhaps have FWB situation, I’ll give it 3-4 dates, but not more. A girl who’s looking for a LT monogamous relationship would be wise to hold me at bay until we at least talk about what we want out dating. A few woman have taken that approach with me and it worked in the sense that they didn’t get too invested in me (which we know is a common result of sex for women) before realizing we were incompatible. On the flip side, I’ve seen women get very upset…

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          • DrivingMeNutes Says:

            And, at the end of the day, what women have done with you or me is only helpful to prove what women SHOULD NOT DO — not because we are bad guys but because there is no woman who has been truly successful (we can only cite to relationships that ultimately “failed” from the woman’s perspective.)

            As for your question, what is a woman to do? I think the problem is that the women suffering from this problem are delusional. They are not morally bad, they are suffering from mild mental illness. I’m being serious. So, the solution is probably out of my pay grade. But that doesn’t mean I have no accuerately identifiied the problem.

            These women need a solution that brings them down to earth. Not so they should choose less attractive men (although that is one way to look at it) but to have a realistic sense of their actual potential and chose men who match that. Shooting for the stars can work once in a while if you’re lucky – but most people won’t be lucky.

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          • Vox Says:

            My take on this, is that most men who will sleep with a women after +/-3 dates aren’t “bad” at all. Sure some are, and some aren’t.

            With the exception of being repelled by someone straight away, it takes most of us 2-4 dates to determine what we think of a person and whether we are interested in something more. Then difference between men and women though, is that men will decide they aren’t interested but have sex anyway, and women typically do not. The sex itself is a separate issue, even though we as women view them as being intertwined.

            I think we become blinded to the true level of attraction and chemistry that exists when we are dating a “prize” – a man who is really good looking, or has a great job, etc. When I reviewed the course of events, every single time I was the recipient of the 3-date blow off the signs were there all along that the guy wasn’t all that into me.

            It was about a year ago when I decided to be honest about the men I was after and start dating average men (because the fact is I’m pretty average myself). Since then, I have never been blown off. I can think of a couple of men I went out with +/- 3 times, then declined their sexual invitations, which resulted in them disappearing. It didn’t bother me in the slightest, because I turned them down because I wasn’t sexually attracted to them enough to sleep with them yet. I assume they were thinking one of two things: 1. that they were ready to bail anyway and figured they may as well try to get a little action, or 2. that if I wasn’t sexually into them by the third date, I never would be (most likely that’s true).

            I don’t think coming up with a set number of dates before sex will necessarily yield positive results, because then you start getting into game-playing territory. But we as women can have sex when we want and only when we want it. We can do it when we are really attracted to a man, for reasons beyond the superficial. And if we can admit we’re just attracted for superficial reasons, sleep with him for the sake of the sex and the sex alone. Then who cares whether you hear from the guy again.

            As for the “bad” guys of the world, such is life. There’s a lot of bad food in the supermarket but you don’t have to eat it. Sharpen up the old radar and choose wisely. Yes the occasional bad piece of fruit makes it into the shopping cart every now and again, but when I pull it out of the bag at home it’s reminder to inspect more closely next time.

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          • Paula Says:

            Vox, I know you and I rarely agree, but I had to say that I agree with this post 100%. I especially agree with this paragraph:

            I don’t think coming up with a set number of dates before sex will necessarily yield positive results, because then you start getting into game-playing territory. But we as women can have sex when we want and only when we want it. We can do it when we are really attracted to a man, for reasons beyond the superficial. And if we can admit we’re just attracted for superficial reasons, sleep with him for the sake of the sex and the sex alone. Then who cares whether you hear from the guy again.

            When I hear women like Saj say wait a certain number of dates, whether it’s 3, 4, or 10, if it’s not outright game playing designed to engineer a result that mostly backfires, it seems like a very artificial constraint — following someone else’s rules instead of your own. As DMN says, it’s no guarantee against getting hurt, and you may push away some guys whose only fault is that they got tired of waiting. And if it isn’t possible for you to sleep with someone for the sake of sex and sex alone, then don’t do it (ever, not just sometimes), but I can’t imagine a scenario where doing it for self-aware reasons instead of delusional ones wouldn’t be preferable. That’s just not what a smart girl should be doing…

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          • Bill Says:

            Shooting for the stars is okay till a certain age after that you have to be realistic. We all have a window of opportunity in life. I keep on seeing more women than men who are shooting for the stars when their prime is gone hoping to win the lotto. Realistically the fantasy prince opportunity has past you now if you don’t settle down and you are only hurting yourself.

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  18. Saj Says:

    I’ll also let you know that I think a week is the longest I’ve waited before pouncing on a guy for some fun who I was really into and the poor things probably had to deal with some blue balls so yah I can be a bitch and use guys for sexual enjoyment as well. However I was completely upfront about my intentions ahead of time and told them where my boundary was and unlike other girls I stuck to it. Funny how making them suffer seemed to work better then giving them everything they wanted right away though that was purely accidental. It’s a type of lust that grows stronger over time rather then the quick torch and lost interest and by them falling in love they obviously didn’t hold a ton of resentment over it.

    I know exactly how to be cruel but I don’t consider myself blameless or forced to do it by the stupidity of others or what I can gain. Being cruel is a choice.

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  19. Christy Says:

    ….and that’s why you’re single…

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  20. Saj Says:

    Warning still Pmsing bua ha ha ha ha

    I don’t think I’ve ever said wait a set number of dates just that if the OP keeps getting dumped after 2 dates make that 4 and see what happens. If the guy bails I think she’ll be hurt less. It’s about her feelings not manipulating his feelings.

    If sleeping with guys you don’t really know gets you what you want then that’s fine but if you are constantly doing the walk of shame and going how can I stop this because it’s really bumming me out then try being a bit smarter about things. One way is to observe the type of guys you are attracted to and if they keep letting you down get to know yourself and find out why these qualities pull you in like a magnet. Learn to smell when a guy is spitting game or bullshit or future forwarding at you to get what he wants. If you have a bad history of going after bad guys and can’t tell them from the good anymore then take some time to get to know them first. That takes me more then a week but others it may be sooner for their gut to say this guy is one of the good ones.

    I’ve never waited an arbitrary amount of dates myself to have sex more then waiting for trust, respect and genuine mutual affection to occur. If a guy wants to go to great lengths to fake that stuff for me then good luck to him because that’s an awful lot of work and I’d probably call BS way before then anyway.

    Women need to be more selfish and understand themselves. If getting pumped and dumped sucks then what is so hard about limiting that to just being dumped. I don’t know about anyone else but it takes a while having sex with someone until they know how to push all the right buttons and vice versa. Why try to fight against the tide of 90% of the guys using you and 10% who don’t instead of understanding your own feelings and motivations and even compulsions and that keep setting yourself up for failure again and again.

    Yeesh have all the sex you want ladies for all I care but you won’t convince me that being jaded and bummed out about the dating world after being used over and over and over isn’t correlated to gambling and losing over and over and over. Of course you may still be dumped or have your heart broken but if you hadn’t slept with the guy yet I think you would get over it quicker.

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