Name: Snowflake | | Location: Calgary , Alberta |Question: Long time reader since 2004
and I never ever thought I would be writing a question like this to you. Please bear in mind everyone I am trying to be as comprehensive and factual but my head is really not in the right place so if I make errors, I am sorry and will correct as it is pointed out.
My boyfriend of 5 years cheated on me. I found out by sheer accident. As I was getting ready to change for work Wednesday morning this week, I had to move his clothes away from my drawers and by accident lit up the screen on his blackberry where the messages from “her” were on screen. It clearly showed her intents or the flow of conversation between them. How much she wanted him, how good they are together, how that he should sneak away for a quick kiss etc etc, how she should be his girlfriend. She said he should tell everyone she was his (they worked together) I found out yesterday morning she has been (coincidentally) fired from his work for racism.
He says he never crossed the physical line even though he lied to me that he was working late and went to see her instead. I am inclined to believe him because I did the same to my ex-husband, I met a guy in person who I was chatting with online for 5 – 6 months and it was late at night and nothing physical happened either. We sat and talked (which is what my boyfriend said he did, he swears on his nephew’s grave he never touched her).
I am completely broken inside, hurt, devastated, I am barely keeping it together. I moved out yesterday (Thursday). It hurts to be near him, in the same home, it was home to me. I want to turn off the switch for my emotions because this pain is too much.
My boyfriend has had this happen to him by his ex of 8 years (ended in 2000) only difference is she crossed the physical line numerous times.
I am confused, hurt and lost as to what to do how to feel because I am still in love with him.
Nothing in our relationship changed, the sex is still hot (he was intimate with me Friday, Saturday before he saw her Sunday night after which he came to bed and cuddled with me). There was no signs that this was happening.
Any advise or kick in the arse is appreciated. |Age: 33
Okay. You and I have had an offline conversation about this. While his lie about his whereabouts is unacceptable, I think you need to give great thought to how you should proceed. 5 years is a long time. That’s a lot of emotion and energy invested in a life with someone else.
If you believe him that he did not cross a physical line, then I believe him. To be honest, I’d believe him anyway only because this woman sending him these texts sounds dangerous. If they’ve never crossed any physical lines, as he claims, then her messages border on delusional. Obviously the woman has some issues if she was let go from her work position for allegedly being racist. But then, who knows what the real story is there. That could have been a nifty little excuse to just get rid of her because she’s a professional liability. Either way, other people are recognizing that her behavior is a problem. So now you have a woman who appears to be less than together, shall we say, who’s pursuing your partner.
But here’s what is bothering me. I understand how, if you tap a phone or move it, the screen lights up. I believe that. But in order to read texts you have to either a) go to that screen or b) be really, really close to the already open screen to read them. So for whatever reason you decided to read that screen. Why? Where you sensing something? Did you already feel like strange things were afoot at the Circle K? I only point this out because I don’t buy this story that you just “happened” to see his text messages. When people gloss over or embellish or flat out lie about what they consider to be insignificant details, they do it for a reason, and it’s usually a guilty conscience. These little things are usually the threads that, when pulled, make the whole thing come apart.
For a second, let’s examine this from his angle. Possibly volatile woman and co-worker aggressively pursues him. While we’ve discussed the appeal of “crazy girl sex” that some men have, men aren’t totally stupid and driven by their hormones. They know trouble when they see it, especially trouble that can put their job security and relationship at risk. Is your partner the type of man who would risk both his job and you by sleeping with a woman who doesn’t appear to be familiar with the word “restraint?” Does that sound like his typical behavior to you? Maybe I’m giving him and all men too much credit. Totally possible. But there’s the enticing idea of having sex with a woman who’s bawdy and aggressive and one who’s flat out deluded and unpredictable and who doesn’t hide either well.
Here’s what I think might be happening. You said that you’ve committed the same act yourself when you were with your ex-husband. So maybe you’re equating this situation and assuming that your boyfriend must be in the same place emotionally that you were in when you did this? So know you’re assuming this was his way of dealing with a possibly struggling relationship because that’s maybe what was going through your mind?
The fact is, you’ve done this too. Did you want forgiveness for it? Or did you do it hoping to get caught? I think that’s where you need to start. First figure out why you did what you did all those years ago. Then tell your boyfriend that you’re afraid he did this for the same reason.Oh, and forgive yourself for what you did. That’s actually the first thing you need to do. Since you and your ex-husband are no longer together, it was obviously a symptom of something. But that doesn’t mean that the same thing is going on here with this current situation.
If everything else up until this point as been business as usual, no other signs of him detaching in some way, then I don’t think it’s wise to assume that this is the sign of a trend. Of course it does mean that your relationship needs some tending to in some regard. I think many other couples experiences similar blips. Only most of them don’t get caught. You could run away or you could rise to the challenge and end up strengthening your relationship.
I keep trying to reinforce this idea on people….no relationship is ever 100% smooth sailing. Ever. There’s always temptation, always a valley after several peaks. We’re human and we’re weak. All of us. Being in a relationship doesn’t make us impervious or immune to any of that stuff. We’re still exactly who we are before we got with that person.
Let me know how it goes and best of luck.
Snowflake – I am so sorry this happened to you. This is a really hard thing. And Mox is right – 5 years is a long time. So try to move slowly before doing anything final.
Whether he crossed the physical line or not, in my mind, is less important than what he gained from the connection he had with her and why he let it get as far as it did. Is he addicted to excitement? Is he susceptible to flattery and attention? Was he bored or stressed or something else that made him receptive to this situation? I’m NOT making excuses for him AT ALL. But what I am doing is encouraging you to figure out if this was a one-time thing or if he is a bad risk for the future. THAT determination is what I would use to make my decision as to whether to try to get past this or not.
I will give a (very) personal example of what I mean. My now-husband was married before. His wife was angry and miserable and there was no sex for years. A ‘close friend’ (definitely the crazy chick type) worked her way in and flattered him and got to him b/c he was vulnerable and they had an affair. (This was all before I knew him.) The affair became public (i.e. he got caught) and he & his wife separated ,then reconciled and then finally after 3 more years, finally divorced. I met him after all this had happened. When he told me about it, I really had to wonder “Do I want to be with someone who cheated?” But…when I really listened to him, his shame and agony over what he had done was SO DEEP, that I realized he was actually more affair-proof than someone who had never cheated and experienced the whole awful situation. And then many years later, a good friend of his was considering an affair and confided in him. And my husband told him how detrimental it was, and how, even if you never get caught, YOU will always know you did it and carry it with you forever, etc. And at that moment, I realized again that he had TRULY learned his lesson.
So to tie this in to your situation, I come back to ….. could this be a learning experience for him that would actually make him value fidelity MORE in the future, or is this part of an ongoing pattern? To me, that is the central question upon which you make your decision.
I hope my input is helpful. I wish you only the best.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I will give a (very) personal example of what I mean. My now-husband was married before. His wife was angry and miserable and there was no sex for years. A ‘close friend’ (definitely the crazy chick type) worked her way in and flattered him and got to him b/c he was vulnerable and they had an affair.
I’m sorry…. but did she trip and her mouth just fell on his cock? Vulnerable? Okay. But nobody works their way in to anything where there isn’t an opening. They had an affair because he chose to cheat. One time? It happens and I can buy the “he was vulnerable” reasoning. But an affair? Uh uh. That involves conscious choices.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I completely agree that it was a conscious choice. Perhaps I didn’t make that point strongly enough. That was why he felt so ashamed about it – his own behavior and his own choices. That was my whole point – that taking responsibility and owning what you did can lead to being less likely to do it again, not more likely.
But this isn’t about my situation, it is about hers. I was only trying to encourage her that he might come out of this as someone she would be able to trust again.
As an aside to you, Mox, you refer to yourself as ‘a handful’ but perhaps that is just another way of saying ‘a bitch.’ I have always tried to post respectfully and to add something that would help the poster. You didn’t have to come across so harshly in your reply.
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“I am confused, hurt and lost as to what to do how to feel because I am still in love with him.” It comes down to one thing: do you still trust him? If not, your relationship is already over and you just haven’t acknowledged it yet. If so, you forgive his (apparently minor) transgression and move on.
Shit happens. Five years is a lot to throw away, though I do have to point out that it’s a long time to date without getting married, if you two really do love each other. But that’s a topic for another day. In the grand scheme of things, one slip just doesn’t seem like that big a deal. Unless, deep down, you’re always going to be worried it’ll happen again.
However, if you do decide to forgive him, I do think it’s worth figuring out why he slipped so that the two of you can work together to figure out how to improve your relationship, in particular your communication. Healthy people in a healthy relationship talk through the problems they’re going through (and I bet you were, or at least he thought you were), not go running into the arms of another to “talk” about their relationship problems and then lie about where they’ve been.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Five years is a lot to throw away, though I do have to point out that it’s a long time to date without getting married,
I think marriage is no longer the primary end goal for most couples. I think that point is absolutely irrelevant.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Great advice Moxie
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I’m with CR here. I think the advice given is decent, buy color me unconvinced that Snow was not ‘flaking’ and snooping too. And the immediate emotional reaction tells the tale here largely. You’ve got little proof that nothing more than ‘crazy coworker’ came on to him. She could & might be suggesting things that never happened & only happened in her imagination. That she’s also recently been fired also tells us that she may be a ‘loose cannon’. So really, if you believe him cut him some slack. In 5 years, if this is the worst you’ve endured, it’s not much to complain about. If the ‘pain’s too much’ and you’re going to resent him for years for this? Drop him or get some therapy to try & cope with it all. (Yes, couples therapy, if so desired).
So Moxie’s good thoughts on projection here notwithstanding, if you can’t take it, you can’t take it. Cheers, ‘VJ’
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1. Snooping -
Honestly, I was not snooping. His berry (including mine – same model) does do that the buttons are touchy and the screen lit up to the messages vs his “home screen”. I did wake him up when I saw the first couple of lines and asked point blank who is “she”. His next words were we need to talk. He then said it himself, I am cheating on you.
2. Cheating -
Saturday via BBM (blackberry messenger) I asked him if no physical lines crossed why does he term it cheating. He said cheating by some is not specifically defined by just the physical.
I appreciate the advice given and it is the same as to what I have been told by my girlfriends. I have to ask myself if I can trust him again. And yes CR you are right. Trust is the foundation of every relationship, without it I will have nothing. There have been no signs of detachment. Yes I agree this person is probably a headcase which is why he did not just outright have an affair. I could not tell from the messages I read (I was still reading them in between the “fighting” that ensued after what he wrote back to her or if he did, all I saw were her messages)
I have a lot to think about, especially about my past, it did dawn on me over the weekend after our offline conversations that this is not only something he has to deal with but I have lessons in this for me. No I am not condoning or agreeing with what has happened. Yes there are problems in our relationship but we have always been able to talk about it.
I am not justifying his actions but he has been through a recently traumatic expericence, his nephew passed away suddenly at age 29 end of October. He has yet to deal with it and I have observed a downward spiral in his demeanor. I have been trying to be supportive as best as I can but until he seeks out help I cannot force anything.
CR – We have been “dating”/living together without getting married because we both chose to not do so. We have stated this mutually from day one. We believe very strongly that marrying someone does not mean commitment, especially in this day and age when divorce is so rampant. No marriage no kids, he is turning 39 in August.
I hope this clarifies a few things. Thank you everyone for your advice.
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Wow, so he used the words “I am cheating on you,” even though he said nothing physical happened? It seems like many guys would go to great lengths to have their behavior not be interpreted as cheating if no sexual boundaries are crossed. Yes, there’s emotional cheating that is not physically consummated (but just as devastating) but usually it’s the innocent partner claiming that’s why it should be considered cheating, not the one involved in it.
You’ve moved out, so now you’re not going to know if he continues to be in touch with her now that they’re no longer working together. It would be easier to trust him if you could get to the bottom of what’s going on…there’s a need she fills if he’s lying to you to go see her. Now that you’re not around, and she’s not at work any more, will he stop seeing her? Or will he continue, making specific plans to spend time with her since it’s now required, and easier to accomplish without you there.
He may be engaged in self-destructive behavior following his nephew’s death, but if this isn’t a wake-up call for him to stop, and/or get grief counseling/therapy to figure it all out, so that he doesn’t risk losing you too, then it’s probably a good idea to steer clear until you’re convinced that he’s hit rock bottom and is willing to make changes to get you back and resume his “normal” behavior.
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Paula, I do not see why I should be a guard dog. He knows he hurt me, he sees it, on me as well as the messages I have sent. He is painfully aware about how much I am hurt by this. If I cannot trust him (All I will ever have is his word right regardless if I am there or not) there is no point in this relationship going on. He knows he messed up. I cannot figure out the need(s) she filled. It could have been just an ego stroke it could be anything, only he can tell me. Poking the beast will not help me.
I had to move out for my own sanity. The consequences of his actions cannot be taken lightly, that is just my opinion. I do not want to throw away 5 years. I moved out to give MYSELF the space I need to heal from this and evaluate everything. I am sure he needs the same to.
Maybe I am mistaken but I do not think I should be there to play watchdog. That will only show me that I will never be able to trust him again. He knows he screwed up, if he so choses to run back to the delusional whatever she is that is his choice, I cannot force someone to stay with me. I love him. He loves me, we have said that to each other. I cannot control him, AND I REFUSE to do so. I want someone who wants me for me willingly.
He recognizes he needs to work on things stemming from his loss. He has said that time and time again. I am supportive because he is my best friend and not just my boyfriend/lover/partner in life. Which is why all of this is so hard on me.
All I have asked of him since then is for honesty not just to me but to himself. If he wants her, just tell me. Yes I want to fight for this but I will not force anyone to be with me when they are not willing.
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Snowflake, you are a very wise woman. IMO, you are handling this perfectly, doing what you know you must for your own sanity (which is top priority at this time). Space is always important in situations like this. You both need some perspective.
Come back when you have some and are in a place where you both can talk (may be a few months, may be a year, who knows). Allow yourself the time and space to grieve and feel the loss. Be emotional and ride those emotions. It will hurt – a lot. But don’t try to suppress anything. Do what you love, pick up some hobbies, be busy with life.
You will get through this, whatever the outcome. You seem a very strong and sensible woman, so even though this will be one of the hardest things you will ever deal with, I am confident that you are strong enough to do so. And remember, even when you feel weak, emotional, depressed, and anything but strong – you are strong. And will be getting stronger.
I admire you for the clarity you have right now, and I wish you luck during this extremely painful time.
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“I cannot figure out the need(s) she filled.” Have you considered asking him?
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I have asked but the first time I asked I was too emotionally driven and my message was lost. I will ask again once we have both have had time to think and process all of this. I refuse to guess because assuming makes me a fool. I will just wait til we are both ready to truly talk about all of this. The both of us have not had much sleep or food over the past 5 days. I know I have a plethora of questions but what is the point in my asking them now when I know I will not get true answers now.
Someone, I am not sure who, asked if he is the kind to jeapordize (sp) his job over some floozie. No he isn’t, this is completely out of character for him. I know because I talked to his sister, I reached out to one of his best friends and she shed alot of clarity on this for me, things I needed to consider, process and evaluate. Me, as his bestfriend, I want to smack him upside the head for doing this to his own life (risking work) because yes he could have gotten himself fired regardless of him being in a relationship with me/or anyone else or even if he were single. It is the nature of his job and the company policies.
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“I know I have a plethora of questions but what is the point in my asking them now when I know I will not get true answers now.” If you don’t trust him to tell the truth when asked a direct question, then see my comment above.
“I will just wait til we are both ready to truly talk about all of this.” The longer you wait, particularly since you’ve already physically departed the relationship, the less likely you are to get anything resolved.
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You are right on both counts.
I said true answers vs the truth because, I myself need to be clear in what I ask, as for if I want the answers I am looking for I need to say exactly what I need and not cloud it with raw emotion, that the point is lost. I know he is telling me the truth (after the confrontation/admittance). I say time (ie this week) because we have both not slept much or been able to function much except for going to work (I myself am slammed with work, I am in the middle of year end). We have hectic schedules and our work hours do not coincide during the week to have this serious of a talk.
I have asked that we take time this Friday/Saturday to have this conversation. He agreed that waiting til then was for the best of us and the outcome we are both jointly seeking.
We do talk daily CR, he is still my best friend and as I am his.
(He was actively attempting to seek counselling – through work health benefits for his loss before all of this happened.)
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I don’t think you need to be a guard dog…it’s just that with you gone, it will be easier for him to see her if he chooses, but he will have to choose since she’s no longer at work. If he doesn’t do that, even with more of an opportunity, then it’s more likely that it was aberrational behavior prompted by his nephew’s death, and evidence that he’s serious about working on the relationship with you. If he continues contact with her after you’re gone (and of course, all you have his word and whether you feel you can trust that, since you’re not around) then he may not be serious about getting to the bottom of why he’s doing this or about salvaging your relationship.
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I agree with Paula. I don’t think you need to be a guard dog. I have never lived with a man, but I think if you want to give your relationship a try you have to physically remain there, too. I know, easier said than done and I don’t know wtf I’m talking about. I do know this, however, the problem doesn’t go away just because you do – and even if you never get married again but you are living in a marriage-like situation, leaving the home when a big problem occurs will cause instability in your relationship, cause him to rethink being honest with you in the future for fear you’ll take off again. Just my 0.02.
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Paula/Dimplz – We both have never believed in the traditional sense of marriage. Commitment by two people in our opinions should not be just over a piece of paper given to us by the law. We have lived our 5 years as two separate individuals, best friends who have a connection to each other that is more than plutonic. He has his life, I have mine, we share our stories, we have shared beliefs, morals and values. We have shared interests.
“Evoke change before you become a slave to it.”
Something threw our relationship into a tailspin. Some serious thinking is required by the both of us. How am I or him able to get through to the bottom of things if we are constantly around each other? I left to find my perspective. I did not just take off and leave him. He is fully aware of this. I left the home because I was hurt beyond words (he found solace/a need or whatever it is in another woman). There has to be consequences to his actions. I cannot just behave as if it was nothing happened and everything is back to “normal”. He cheated, I am hurt, I need to heal, he has to respect that (which he does). Our relationship has never been and will never be a traditional one so please do not akin it to marriage. Living together does not make us married.
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So, if it’s not traditional, why do you consider it cheating? That’s what it would be if you were living like a married couple or married, but if your relationship isn’t traditional, then it isn’t cheating.
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We are not in an open relationship, we are committed to each other 100 percent. He cheated on me emotionally, which constitutes, lying, going to another woman to fill his needs instead of me, in this case emotionally.
Paula – You are implying I should be at home because he could go to this other woman. I was home and he still went, my presence did not change it, right?
Dimplz – I say not traditional because most marriages are religious based, our relationship is not, it is not based on religion or the law its a commitment we made to each other. We will never have kids. Marriage is a social union or legal contract between people that creates kinship – wiki.
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“Marriage is a social union or legal contract between people that creates kinship – wiki.” Right, this is why I said you were living like a married couple. I’m not basing this on religion or a legal union, but the expectation of fidelity and commitment to each other.
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If this is a self destructive move on his part (We all really have no idea at ths point on his motivations as he hasn’t really got down to the down and dirty of how everything escalated from beginning to end) that sometimes you NEED a watch dog in addition to therepy to get your head in a right place to repair a relationship.
However I also understand Snowflakes personal needs for space to sort herself out. In the end you need to take care of you right now and I would suggest therepy for both you and him and for you alone to help process your emotions.
Coming from someone where this happened and it didn’t cross a physical boundry (I was the one in the wrong) what we did is first I went to therepy to figure out why I was being self destructive (still a work in process) I made sure to prove that I wanted to fight hard for this relationship and would do anything necessary (if he wants to just sweep things under the rug without doing any hard work then this is likely to happen again or continue to happen with him taking more care not to get caught)
My husband demanded absolute honesty even if I slipped to tell him everything. This motivated me to weigh the pros and cons of slipping with comming clean and hurting him and that has helped the snow ball from even beginning to roll down the hill and to come to him if I’m struggling. Our relationship was fine so it wasn’t about lacking something rather then wanting to implode for whatever reason. In my case I need a watchdog and if left on my own during that time I would have continued to slip.
This only refers to things if the reason he engaged was do to emotional distress but if it was something else such as boredom, ego stroking or he’s vauge and dismissive when you want him to get to the nitty gritty then I don’t know how you can fix things. Instead of comming up with elaborate excuses on how she is a nutjub he needs to tell you his entire part in it and it has to feel right in your gut rather then just choosing to trust him or not. You need information from him and what your gut is telling you to trust rather then blind faith.
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Hey, I never said anything about marriage…two of my closest friends are in 15-year + and 30-year + relationships respectively which have never involved marriage. (One of them had an “un-wedding” several years ago, where the non-bride wore black and carried dead roses.) Do I doubt their commitment to each other? Not in the slightest. But there’s a reason that both of you consider this to be cheating — whatever happened with her, it’s not something that has been acceptable within the confines of your relationship, nor something you consider acceptable now that you know about it. And he knows that too, or he wouldn’t have called it cheating.
All I’m saying that when you were living with him, he had to lie to you when spending time with this woman outside of work, and he did get to see her at work. Now he doesn’t have to lie to you to see her, when you’re not around to observe his comings and goings, and she won’t be at work, so he will need to make specific plans to see her. If he doesn’t do that, then he will never have to see her, can ignore her emails, and can refocus on getting your relationship back to a healthy place. If he continues, then it’s his deliberate choice to do so, and whether it’s due to self-destructive behavior and/or a feeling that you’re no longer meeting his needs, then you should be taking that into account.
It’s the answer to the question Moxie poses in the title: did he stray or just slip?
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I was not implying you should stay — I support your decision to leave if it’s what you needed to clear your head (and you’re lucky that you have alternative housing options so that you can leave on short notice and are not stuck living with him when it’s too painful.)
My ex-husband and I split up at around the same amount of time together (6 years together, 4 1/2 years married) and had to keep living together for a month and a half afterwards. It was pretty awful, and I don’t recommend it.
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Snowflake – I agree with many of the commenters above. If you don’t believe in the institution of marriage in the traditional sense, but you equate a relationship with 100% commitment, then perhaps you should believe in marriage. Your ideals don’t align. FIVE years is an incredibly long time to be with someone without being married. I know it hurts like hell right now, but you are not enslaved to him. I’m wondering if you truly do not believe in marriage or if you were influenced by his beliefs and he convinvced you not to? If the latter is true, then you have no obligation to stay with him – you can move on and find someone who believes in the sanctity of marriage and the security that it brings.
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“the sanctity of marriage” That is religion speaking. If she’s not religious, “sanctity” is moot.
“and the security that it brings.” Hah! More than half of all marriages now end in divorce in less than five years, so any supposed “security” is all in your head.
I’m fine with them not marrying if that’s what works for them. However, it’s unusual enough that I incorrectly assumed otherwise. My fault, not hers.
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I did not believe in marriage before him. As I stated above I was previously married. That collapse in marriage was the reason why I had all my ideals change and when I met my boyfriend I was quite taken aback to have found someone who believed what I did.
CR – You are right, I am not religious, not even close. Spiritual yes, religious hell no! I agree with your statement on the sanctity of marriage. In this day and age, no piece of paper keeps two people together anymore. The divorce rate has quadrupled in the past decade or two.
Five years is a long time to be in a committed relationship. We do not believe in marriage we will never get married. It is not for us and will never be.
I was never “enslaved” to him, again if you re-read what I wrote, I clearly stated we are two individuals who share our separate lives we are not conjoined to the hip.
I am a bit taken a back by why some of the women responding are assuming I am looking for marriage or are equating my relationship to one of such. Or am I misreading things?
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As I stated below, I don’t see the difference between your relationship and other marriages because there are all types of marriages. I don’t assume you want to be married to him. I don’t assume any woman wants to be married. Frankly, I don’t care whether they want to be married or not.
You wrote in asking for feedback regarding an infidelity. People started talking about you living together and comparing it to a marriage and you got hung up on that. That’s not the issue. The issue is, whether or not you are two free-willing individuals who share a life (and I’m sorry, but all the people who I know who are married are NOT by any means joined at the hip, so you may want to rethink your definition of marriage) or two people who are married, the same thing holds true. If you want a relationship to work, in my opinion, you don’t leave. If anything, this will be one of many hardships you will endure, whether you are married or not. Two people who share a life share good and bad times, that’s just the way it is. The piece of paper means nothing. You don’t beg a piece of paper for forgiveness and cry on a piece of paper’s shoulder. You ask your partner for forgiveness, and you cry on your partner’s shoulder. I’m not telling you, stay or go. I am saying if you want to consider working it out then work it out, with him. Not alone. You may be individuals, but you are in a relationship with each other. I hope this makes sense.
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Snowflake – I agree with many of the commenters above. If you don’t believe in the institution of marriage in the traditional sense, but you equate a relationship with 100% commitment, then perhaps you should believe in marriage. Your ideals don’t align.
Disagree. You can believe in commitment and not believe in marriage.
Your ideals don’t align. FIVE years is an incredibly long time to be with someone without being married. I know it hurts like hell right now, but you are not enslaved to him.
Interesting choice of words there. So, if she were married to him she would be “enslaved?”
then you have no obligation to stay with him – you can move on and find someone who believes in the sanctity of marriage and the security that it brings.
Oh wow. Really? You think marriage provides a level fo security that just plain old commitment doesn’t? I’m a big believer in marriage, but I would hate to think that I was involved with someone who was staying with me because of some sort of religious guilt or fear of financial ruin. At least without marriage you’re less likely to get stuck in an unsatisfying relationship.
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I understood from the start that the OP wasn’t married. What I meant when I said, “even if you never get married again…” was with a future guy. You don’t have to be married to expect a certain level of commitment when you live together. That said, aside from them not saying vows, I don’t see any difference in their relationship and an actual marriage. I know people who are married and not living together, not married and living together, not religious, not traditional, go on separate vacations, so religion or law was not in my definition. Even if you aren’t “married married,” you might as well be, because the breakup and betrayal are just as painful. I’m not saying you should be married, I’m just saying that defining your relationship as other than marriage is moot because it doesn’t change the fact that it was still a betrayal and you both label it cheating.
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then you have no obligation to stay with him – you can move on and find someone who believes in the sanctity of marriage and the security that it brings.
Oh wow. Really? You think marriage provides a level fo security that just plain old commitment doesn’t?
Yes, I do. I’m not saying marriage and committment are not mutually exclusive – they certainly can be. However, marriage does afford many rights and provides the security that a long term committed relationship can not always provide. (And yes, unfortunately some same sex couples don’t have a choice.) Given snowflake’s need for 100% commitment, I wouldn’t be surprised if she was influenced by her boyfriend’s beliefs to opt for a relationship rather than a marriage certificate.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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CityGal – I am at a lost for words for what you just responded with and that is all I will say.
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CityGal, I think you need to stop. She has a mind of her own and can think for herself. She’s not in the minority if she doesn’t want to be married again. It’s not an instinct like being hungry. Jeez.
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I know this isn’t related to the cheating but as to the marriage thing this is what I heard.
You don’t need a piece of paper to stay together but those couples without one don’t. Meaning the rate of non married couples who stay together for the rest of their lives is very very low stats wise then the divorce rate so your chance of staying together for the long haul is LOWER then for the counterparts who got married.
You can blame it on religious guilt, finances or the fact that you believe in marriage for why those who make the choice tend to last longer then those who want the option of walking without much fuss. The OP can define her relationship however she wants I don’t care but for the general argument about marriage (and I don’t believe MOST people are against it) those who go the non traditional route tend to have a lower success rate despite the commentary about our society today as I see that as just an excuse to not throw yourself 100% into the relationship that will last your lifetimes. You can say things happen but we also have some control over these things and if both people are 100% gung ho then it’s more likely to work out.
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“the rate of non married couples who stay together for the rest of their lives is very very low stats wise then the divorce rate” Of course. Married couples started out as non-married couples. Naturally, most couples aren’t right for each other and will therefore split up before reaching the marriage stage even if that is an eventual goal, hurting the stats for those who don’t share that goal.
“I don’t believe MOST people are against [marriage]” Sorry, but just look at the stats: each successive generation has been less and less interested in marriage, and now the majority of those under 40, and an overwhelming majority of those under 30, believe it’s outdated and unnecessary and even potentially harmful in many cases.
In any event, it doesn’t really have any bearing on the issue the OP wrote in about, i.e. what to do about her man’s so-called “emotional cheating”. Whether he’s a boyfriend or a husband doesn’t change what happened or how she should respond to it.
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Yah this isn’t really on topic but to reply to your point.
I guess living in Seattle and now Utah I’ve never heard the anti marriage propaganda outside of the internet or dating blogs which of themselves are a select niche as well as those who are polled in such outlets.
The relationships I was referring to were the ones who had made proclamations of never getting married but sticking it out rather then just your normal long term relationship that doesn’t work out.
Probably due to the personality types involved that are either jaded to the idea or one person is in and one isn’t and that’s their compromise.
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Marriage doesn’t mean a thing if one person is determined to end the relationship. It just makes it more costly and time-consuming to do so. Been there done that, as have many.
In Snowflake’s case, the fact that her guy considers what happened to be infidelity, even though they’re not married, and even though there wasn’t something physical (taking his word for it, of course) is relatively remarkable and a helpful indication for the future of their relationship. There are some who would say it’s not infidelity if they’re not married. There are some who would say that it’s not infidelity if there wasn’t a physical consummation. He’s not giving himself that wiggle room, and recognizes his behavior is inconsistent with the commitment they had to each other (which no piece of paper or public ceremony can dictate).
I think the most important consideration is: what is he going to do now when he has to make a conscious effort to be with this other person, and when Snowflake isn’t around to see it when he does? He has the choice to avoid any contact, now that he’s come clean, and focus on rebuilding things with Snowflake, or to keep engaging in self-destructive behavior with someone who might be bringing the crazy. Snowflake, you’ve done what you need to do by moving out — the ball is in his court.
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Get rid of him. It will be hard, but be strong and do it.
You will never be able to trust him again no matter how hard you try to convince yourself that you can. It will always be in the back of your mind and will eat at your self esteem.
‘
You can find someone else who will be faithfull.
I’m sorry, but I’m not buying the whole it “It didn’t cross any physical boundaries.” thing. He said he cheated because he cheated, then realized he could get out of admitting he actually did anything physical so he took it. If it was only flirting he would have said that, not that he cheated.
Cheaters always try to get away with it by telling you only what they are forced to. Don’t buy their BS.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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So let me get this straight……he admitted he was cheating. then made up some mumbo jumbo that he crossed no physical lines. so which is it? Further, it is always easier to believe the “other bitch is crazy” than to believe that your dude is just a straight up selfish dickhead! He left you to see her. so he cuddled with you after seeing her……BFD……what does that even prove?! Also, the fact that he was cheated on in the past and that you cheated on someone in the past is totally irrelevant to the situation at hand.
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“…marriage does afford many rights and provides the security that a long term committed relationship can not always provide…”
Put another way: Moneymoneymoneymoneymoney. Those “rights” and that “security” are a one-way street, and they are the reason far more women initiate divorce than men. In a nutshell, a good explanation of why more and more men are choosing not to get married
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Regardless of what happened, it’s a sad story. Forgiveness is given not because it’s been earned or because it is deserved, but because it is a necessary component of living a just, empathetic, healthy life. If you can forgive him, then forgive him. If not, make a clean cut. If this is his only screw-up, I’d say forgive and work toward rebuilding a stronger relationship – obv, that’s up to you.
The question you have to ask yourself is how hard will you allow your heart to get? Erasing five years is cold-blooded – understandable, but cold-blooded. If you do it, remember it the next time you make a serious blunder in a relationship. The best place to start would be having a serious h2h with your fella about how serious he is about you. Good luck.
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A blunder is one thing. Sticking your dick in someone else’s hole is another. The OP seemed to justify his shitty behavior by saying his nephew had recently died. First of all, when my brother died, I had a boyfriend who I DID NOT cheat on just because of my brother’s death. Secondly, so is the OP saying that any time there is a stressful event in her man’s life, he has license to do shitty dishonest things to her. @ godsowncrunk “erasing 5 years is cold blooded”. Exactly, which is exactly what the boyfriend did when he decided to screw someone else and lie about it. He didn’t even have a crisis of conscience where he told her on his own. He only semi admitted it once he was backed into a corner. So, no i do not think she should stay, nor should she give him brownie points for honesty, nor should she make up excuses for him!!!!!
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I think you must be bitter about something that has happened to you in the past, because you clearly did not read what the OP has said. She has clearly indicated that she believes that nothing happened physically. Why the hell would you not believe her? It takes a small mind to only believe the worst in every situation.
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Umm…sarah, do you really have to be so crude? Especially since there’s no evidence he DID stick his dick in someone else’s hole? None of the other woman’s messages indicate that. He said to Snowflake that it was an emotional transgression, and she believes him. So you’re not just being crude, but cruel.
It’s more understandable (not excusable, but understandable) that he would turn to someone else for emotional support during a time when he was excessively in need of it. It doesn’t make it any less shitty for her, which is why she needs to assess what he does now that she’s moved out, but stop twisting the knife with facts that don’t exist as far as we’re concerned.
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I dont believe her, because i believe that she is buying into his BS. And, like I said, it is easier for her to believe him than what the text messages from the other women had to say. Excuses, excuse, sheesh. And I am speaking from personal opinion, of believing the dude over the other woman, and boy was that a mistake!!
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And just what is it that the text messages had to say?
How much she wanted him, how good they are together, how that he should sneak away for a quick kiss etc etc, how she should be his girlfriend.
Nothing about any physically reciprocated activity there, is there? We don’t even know that they’ve kissed — only that she thinks they should.
He could still be lying about that, but their relationship will most likely not be salvageable if he is.
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oops meant pesronal experience. anyway, good luck to her. she will definitely need it if she stays with someone who she clearly cannot trust.
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Well, Snowflake’s personal experience is that she had an emotional relationship with someone other than her ex-husband, so she knows that it is possible to do that without any physical transgression. And she at this point believes her boyfriend.
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Come on Paula…do you really believe that nothing physical happened? The evidence is that he said told her he cheated. Then when she asked what does that mean, he knew he had a way to lessen the blow by claiming it was only emotional.
Not to mention the fact that if this guy needed to “emotionally” cheat on his gf, their relationship must be horrible to begin with.
It really doesn’t matter what the OP believes. I don’t know a single person who was cheated on in a relationship that lasted that long that didn’t “believe” her bf unless she has concrete proof of the physical. A cheater will never fess up to an ounce more than what the proof accuses him of. Cheating is a selfish act. The selfishness doesn’t stop at the cheating. It continues into the fall out. All cheaters care about is having easier drama to deal with once they get caught. They’ll say anything to achieve those ends.
Let’s just look at the evidence…we have a girl who was throwing herself at this guy…we have a guy who is meeting her in private to “emotionally” cheat on her. So this guy didn’t have the backbone to stop himself from emotionally cheating, but he had the stones to turn this woman down as she threw herself at him sexually?
While we’re at it, I’ve got a used car to sell you.
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Sometimes when people are depressed they seek out knew people to talk to. It is often easier to be comfortable talking to someone who doesnt really know you than your partner. It could also be a way to escape from ‘reality’. Getting to know a new woman on a deep and intimate (i don’t mean physical here) could be the way he escaped.
I know this is possible because I did it. I never labeled it as cheating because it never got physical but I certainly was telling the woman things that I probably should have been discussing with my ex-gf. In my case, however, it was the ex that was making me depressed and the other woman continues to be my best friend – a year post relationship end with the ex.
Had the ex known about the conversations we had I am sure she would have been hurt. Also, I did sneak out to meet her for coffee and such occasionally. The closest we ever came to being physical was a hug and a kiss on the cheek hello and goodbye.
For me it was an outlet because I wasn’t having my emotional (and other) needs filled at home anymore and I couldn’t just end it with the ex at that point. (wish i had – would have saved me a lot f hurt later on).
I think those of you who jump to the conclusion that he definitely got physical with this woman, sans any evidence, are being blinded by your own shortsightedness. It is certainly possible and we should be willing to believe that the story that the OP is giving us is the truth.
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A lot depends on your cynicism and personal experience. I know in my own (former) marriage, that physical cheating was a line I was not prepared to cross, and I never did. I also know that when my marriage was going downhill, I was very emotionally vulnerable, and very susceptible to forming emotional attachments with other guys that would have been enough to arouse suspicion had my husband known about them. (He was looking for the physical ones, which he never found, because there weren’t any.)
If you’re insecure and vulnerable, you can get a lot from having someone show an interest in your life, flirting with you, being able to confide things in them you can’t tell your partner, bonding over things your partner doesn’t share, and being able to spend lots of time with them in a “safe” environment like work. Having all this frequently doesn’t require crossing major boundaries or giving that much back to the interested party (which would be another explanation for why she’s so aggressively throwing herself at him — she’s trying to push him over the line that he hasn’t yet crossed with her). If you don’t believe me, google “work spouse” — 23% of workers say they have one.
It’s a plausible explanation that her boyfriend grew close to his coworker during the time of excessive need following his nephew’s death, and then when the coworker got fired for racism (which had to have been laden with its own drama) she needed him around (as her work BFF) to comfort her and process everything. He knew he couldn’t just go to meet her during off hours, and couldn’t explain to Snowflake why his presence was needed so badly to help her deal with being fired, so he lied and went to meet her. I’m not saying it’s the actual explanation, but it’s not implausible, and if he doesn’t have a history of lying to suit his needs, then it may be a situation that spun out of control emotionally, but not physically.
I know there are people who walk through life believing everyone lies to suit their own self-interest. I don’t believe that’s accurate, and I have no desire to become one of them…either the liar or the cynic believing that everyone else is lying all the time. Maybe that’s why I buy new cars.
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All the reasons I’m hearing to support this guy “only” emotionally cheating describe a dysfunctional relationship that needed to end anyway.
What kind of relationship did these two have if he didn’t want to go to HER and talk to HER about how he was feeling?
If she feels betrayed…then why should she fight against that to salvage a relationship that was already on the rocks?
I believe strongly in manogamy (once an exclusive talk is had), and I would never say “I cheated on you.” to my gf if all I did was talk to another woman in secret. I have a crap load of married, engaged, and “serious” guy friends who constantly cheat on their gf’s. This sounds like something they would say.
For the most part, only women “emotionally” cheat. All of you women are buying this crap because it’s possible for them. But I’m telling you as a man…that if I was “emotionally cheating” (which I wouldn’t do, but if I went that far…) and a woman was THROWING herself at me sexually. I would not be able to resist. It’s either all or nothing with the resisting when a woman is throwing herself at you.
So call my cynical or jaded or whatever. But sometimes you just can’t take the chance that this guy is the 1 in 1000 that don’t fit the normal mold of how guys act. It’s not worth the emotional heartache for a relationship that wasn’t what it should have been.
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It’s called “projecting.” She is not you, and he is not your ex. You’re losing credibility. You seem to have very stringent standards, gathered by how you jumped on Moxie the other day for having one night stands. Must be nice to be perfect.
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