Poll – Who’s More Responsible If She Gets Hurt?

POLL QUESTION:

Man and woman date and begin a sexual relationship. After a several dates (more than 5) the woman says she wants their relationship to become exclusive since they are now sleeping together regularly. The man says he does not wish to have an exclusive relationship. She continues to sleep with him regardless.

Who is more responsible if the woman gets hurt or confused?

The man – He knew she had feelings for him and he was taking advantage of those feelings.

The woman – He told her where he stood and she compromised something that was important to her.

Both of them equally – It takes two to tango, buster.

Not Sure

Here’s my vote:

Not sure. As much as I believe that it’s unfair to expect for someone to be responsible for your feelings, I do believe that people should follow their conscience. We know when we’re doing something that could be construed as “wrong.” But on the other hand…we’ve heard so many men say that they do not understand why some women place such importance on sex? Are they just saying that to be callous or flip…or do they truly not have the ability to understand why women connect sex with safety and security and emotion? If that’s the case then how can they be at fault for taking a woman at her word that she’s okay with his decision not to be exclusive?

 

April 17 Post Poll - Who Is More Responsible for Her Hurt Feelings? Read Today's Post & Vote

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78 Responses to “Poll – Who’s More Responsible If She Gets Hurt?”

  1. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    “…we’ve heard so many men say that they do not understand why some women place such importance on sex? Are they just saying that to be callous or flip…or do they truly not have the ability to understand why women connect sex with safety and security and emotion?”

    I understand it perfectly. While it may be changing, women attach importance to sex because, historically, sex is the only way women have been able to exercise power. I’m sure many women can and do enjoy sex for its own sake but I have never met a woman that didn’t also use sex to gain some other advantage to themsevles.

    Relationship decisions are choices. It’s not something external that “happens” to you. And, the refusal to make a choice is also a choice. So, I think, in general, each is responsible for the consequences of their own bad relationship choices, especially when well informed as in your example.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 14 Thumb down 8

    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      I’m impressed that you have an opposable thumb, but perhaps you’d like to explain how you disagree.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 4

      • Joey Giraud Says:

        You’re revealing trade secrets, DMN, and it’s too much work for them to come up with a rationalization response.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 2 Thumb down 9

      • Angeline Says:

        DMN, I didn’t have time to click thumbs up or down on your comment before I saw the second comment (and cracked up), but I would have had a hard time picking one or the other. I agree with most of what you said, except this:
        but I have never met a woman that didn’t also use sex to gain some other advantage to themsevles.
        Good grief. There are some of us out here with a sense of honor and integrity. No golden vagina here. I would see that as no different than prostitution. Why taint something that should be fun, a delight! with an underhanded form of commerce? Yeesh, DMN.

        The rest of it I agree with. But that’s a deeply cynical and twisted thing to say about an entire gender.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

        • Angeline Says:

          I take that back – prostitution would be more honest.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          Maybe you misunderstand? I’m not talking about money in exchange for sex. I’m talking about having sex for any reason other than for the purpose of having sex. You may want to have a baby. You may want to have a relationship. You may want to be close to a man, or have a man sleep next to you. For that, women will have sex, in order to get something else. They may enjoy the sex too, but there in it mostly for some other reason. I don’t think it’s so crazy! But, okay.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

          • Angeline Says:

            No I think I get it, that the act of sex itself, whether in a marriage, or a relationship, or just FWB (I’ve done all of those) is really a transaction, and I, as a woman, was not really just there to have fun and get off, but gather some benefit to myself. I’ve seen too many jokes and sitcoms and movies (and my in-laws) play that scenario out, and found it hugely offensive. I consciously avoided ever being a part of that. I believe it to be dishonest and underhanded. Besides, why would I deny myself something that I love? Why would I turn something great into some mercenary battleground?

            In my 30 years of marriage, yes, one or the other of us occasionally had sex more to please the other partner, or to get the relaxation and sleep and mood lift, than purely “OhmyGodIwantitrightNOW”, but I wouldn’t call that a bad deal for either person. Certainly no one is trying to get something over on the other. And if you’re open to it, most of the time you can cajole or be cajoled into full-on wanting it anyway. We did that, and had a lot of fun with it.

            I don’t think that’s what you’re talking about though – there’s no ulterior motive there on either side. I want some new drapes, so I’ll fuck him so he’ll be in a good mood and say yes? That creeps me out. Money doesn’t have to change hands there for it to still clearly be a transaction.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

            • DrivingMeNutes Says:

              I was speaking more abstractly in my original comment but your point is taken. I don’t think every sexual act is a transaction. I think women, in general, use sex to achieve other goals (the reason they “attach” an emotional significance to it.) The same way a man may exert power through physical domination — doesn’t mean he’s literally mugging old ladies. Anyway, I will concede to you because you’re the only one here that appreciates my sense of humor.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

              • Angeline Says:

                I was so bothered by this I asked my boyfriend last night. He completely confirmed what you said, that every woman he’d been involved with has done this at some point or another. I am so appalled, I can’t even tell you. And I knew you didn’t mean every act, but that every woman you’d ever met had done so at some point or another.

                Yeesh. I knew it was a cliche, and those don’t come out of thin air. But I honestly didn’t think it was a universal thing.

                I’m gonna go play in some traffic now.

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

                • DrivingMeNutes Says:

                  Ha,well I guess your boyfriend doesn’t understand women either.

                  But, seriously, I still don’t think I’m communicating my point because I’m suprisied that it’s controversial, let alone appalling. I was only trying to explain WHY women attach special importance to the act of sex. I wasn’t denying that women do that. I see with my eyes and hear with my ears that women are emotional about sex. I wasn’t saying whether I thought it was “good” or “bad.” It just is. (Look at Joey Giraud’s comment under mine, he put it well.)

                  Angeline, before you go into traffic, just think of this. Put aside yourself and your modern happy life and values. Think of women say 100 years ago. If they didn’t demand ANYTHING in return for sex, they would have all of…. nothing. Do you disagree with that? And, if so, what do you say is a woman’s source of power? Men had physical dominance. Men had property rights. Men had political rights. What did women have? What do women have now that men haven’t “agreed” to give them?

                  Again, this is not a statement of what is morally right or wrong. I’m just saying what I observe in the world.

                  Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

                  • Angeline Says:

                    Haha! I guess I’ll stay out of the traffic. Funny you should put it that way, because that’s just how my bf (very gingerly) trod round it. I don’t disagree with that assessment at all, and I never meant to come across like I did – I just truly thought that we’d progressed some in the intervening 100-odd years. That women could freely own their enjoyment of sex, and simply want it, and go for it. To my mind, that’s one of the (few) benefits of the sexual liberation that came out of the 60’s. That by rejecting that transaction-based sex, I was doing my part to meet my lovers as a whole person.

                    I’m enjoying the hell out of the growing relationship with my guy, but he gets a huge kick out of the fact that we met because I simply wanted to get laid, and made it clear I was interested in him for that reason.

                    I made a conscious choice in my teens not to taint sex with transaction. I still don’t believe I’m the only one, but I’m willing to concede from your posts and my bf’s experiences that it is sadly more rare than I thought. My ex and I, who were together for almost 30 years, were children when we met, and he knew this about me (making that kind of commitment just in my head wouldn’t really have meant much). We came of age in the 70’s, and as idealistic kids, were marinated in both the strident feminists trying to make legitimate points about that unfair power balance, and the discomfort that, according to those same feminists, fixing it seemed to require making men smaller rather than raising women up. We both hated that. The marriage foundered on other rocks, but we probably stayed married a good 10 years longer than we should have, because the sex was fun. I’d like to believe that taking the underhanded potential out of the equation was part of that.

                    I don’t doubt that there are many, many women who trade sex in hopes of gaining all manner of emotional and financial benefits – I just thought we’d made a little more progress than is apparent. I honestly didn’t think it was still so nearly universal.

                    Paula made an excellent point below that women are still somewhat stigmatized for admitting to this kind of thinking or behavior. My bf and I discussed her post too, and *he* was surprised by that, to think that it still goes on (he’s doesn’t do the internet at all). Just think of all the heat that posts about ‘when to have that first sex’ garner, and the completely polarized advice given. We’re kinda damned if we do, damned if we don’t on that. I looked around at what dating had become after my divorce, and said fuck it, I’m not following any ‘rules’. It’s not how I’ve lived my life up to now, why should I follow something that feels false? Someone said it perfectly on another topic – a man who sleeps with you, and then holds it against you for sleeping with him “too soon”, is a douchebag. He’s likely going to have all sorts of other weird strictures as well.

                    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

    • Paula Says:

      Well, you haven’t met me, DMN, but there are a number of women out there that believe if you like sex for sex’s sake, you’re broken and emotionally defective, which can become a self-fulfilling prophecy if you hear and internalize it enough. My opposable thumb wasn’t opposing the overall sentiment of your message, and in fact I gave it a thumbs up, but I don’t agree with the entirety of your second paragraph.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

      • Joe Says:

        there are a number of women out there that believe if you like sex for sex’s sake, you’re broken and emotionally defective

        You’ve met my stbx wife too?

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  2. Saj Says:

    A woman who keeps up an ambiguous relationship even though it isn’t what she wants is just setting herself up for punishment and hopefully the school of hard knocks will teach her that this is a horrible strategy to get a relationship from someone not willing.

    A guy knowing he is hurting a woman but makes the choice to hurt her as long as he gets laid is a douche bag period. People take advantage of each other all the time but because it happens so much it doesn’t mean they get to be absolved of their actions for being overly selfish. They still get to be called jerks.

    It’s like taking advantage of your elderly kind grandmother giving you money that she can’t afford to give but you keep asking for more and more and then say well it’s her fault for giving me money. Yah but it’s also your fault for using her poor choices against her.

    For DMN you proved your point of not getting the emotional feelings of women with only attributing sex as a power play. What is the point of explaining something that you will never understand and have no desire to understand.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 3

    • Joey Giraud Says:

      DMN didn’t say sex was only a power play for women, he said sex was the only power play women had.

      How’s this, she wants exclusive, he says no. She, refusing to accept that her voodoo isn’t strong enough to control him, keeps trying, which means more sex. Eventually, unable to capture him, she gives up.

      Her pain and hurt is an ego bruised by the discovery of the limits of her power.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “it’s also your fault for using her poor choices against her” Sorry, but I am not my sister’s keeper. If I have been honest about my intentions (or lack thereof), but you still sleep with me and get hurt as a result, that’s entirely on you. I did my part; it’s time for you to pull up your big-girl pants and do the same. If you’re not getting what you want out of a relationship, all you have to do is leave.

      Or are you saying that women are too stupid/immature to take responsibility and be accountable for their own choices, so men need to protect women from themselves? Yeah, we had several thousand years of such chauvinistic bullshit and know exactly how it plays out; is that what you want to go back to?

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 4

      • Saj Says:

        If you are doing something you know is mean and they let you and you go well its all on them that is a serious character flaw. Im not talking about sex I’m talking about taking advantage of someone else for your gain in all instances. If you take pride in this rather then being oblivious it is yet another character flaw. If you don’t care about your character then carry on.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “something you know is mean” Take a step back. What is he doing that is “mean”? He was honest with her, and she made the adult decision to continue having sex–presumably because she values it enough for its own sake that she wants more even without a (possibly false) commitment of exclusivity. Who is he to deny her? That would be “mean”. So is sexistly assuming that she, due to the mere fact of being a woman, is not capable of taking care of her own emotions and needs to be protected from herself.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

          • Paula Says:

            Amen, CR.

            I had a very similar situation a long time ago, involving a FWB of about 18 months. He moved from my city to a city I traveled to 4 or 5 times a year, so I only saw him then, and kept in touch via occasional emails and phone calls. Neither one of us had asked for exclusivity, and neither one of us were in love with each other (to my knowledge — I know that I wasn’t).

            He started telling me stories about his crazy neighbor, and then ended up sleeping with her, which he told me about. I visited him shortly thereafter, and he wouldn’t sleep with me, which really annoyed me, since I had carved out part of my weekend to be with him, and didn’t want to waste it just being frustrated. When we talked about it later, he said that he thought I was in love with him (based on what his mother told him) and that he was protecting me from getting hurt because he wasn’t exclusive.

            Well, I wasn’t in love with him, and was not hurt that he was sleeping with his neighbor (I knew it wouldn’t last, and sure enough, it didn’t, more than a couple of weeks). What I was hurt about was that he would end a very satisfactory FWB situation based upon wrong assumptions about how I felt, rather than just talking to me about it. I didn’t need him to protect me from myself — I needed him to communicate honestly, and from there, I could make my own decisions.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

          • Saj Says:

            Come on you know better on what her intentions are. She is giving him what he wants to buy time in the hope that he’ll see what a wonderful giving person she is and fall for her. When he sees this transparent attempt and goes oh well sucks to be her that’s mean.

            It’s a dumb plan on her part but really should we always take advantage of dumb people?

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2

            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              “should we always take advantage of dumb people?” Personally, I try not to because of the bad karma, but most people (both men and women) will do so. Part of being an adult in our society is protecting yourself from predators. And part of building intimacy is establishing that your mate isn’t a predator and letting down your defenses.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

            • Paula Says:

              Come on Saj, it’s a hypothetical. So I don’t know what her intentions are, unless Moxie tells us that. I’m not going to assume anything. I pointed out a couple of examples of situations in which I’ve been personally involved where the motivation for exclusivity was not due to having feelings for the other person. Your life experience causes you to interpret it differently, which is fine.

              But to call the woman dumb? I don’t like what leads you to that assumption any more than I like the sexist and paternalistic assumptions that lead people to think that 1) because she’s a woman, she must be in love with him after they’ve slept together; 2) she’s using the sex as a power play to get him to commit; or 3) even though he’s been honest with her about how she feels, it’s still his job to protect her feelings by stopping having sex with her.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

              • Saj Says:

                Oh come on. Cut the PC crap. We all are dumb in different areas of our life. Some women are just very very dumb in protecting themselves emotionally while others are dumb financially and so on and so on.

                Very smart women with degrees ect ect who post here seem to have more issues with dating due to their own mistakes then some girls who never graduated high school.

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4

                • Paula Says:

                  There is definitely emotional intelligence, which exists separately from what we consider intelligence, and which is not dependent on education. I’ve never said otherwise, although “dumb” is not a term I like using in reference to anyone, even a hypothetical someone. Call that PC if you want, but we display intelligence in different ways, and to assume that anyone who doesn’t logically see things the way I see them is dumb would be pretty arrogant on my part.

                  You think it’s dumb for anyone to sleep with someone who is not committed to them — I get it. I think it’s dumb for anyone to base their sexual decisions on their emotional feelings for someone, or to force someone to tell you something in particular in order to get laid, and you probably understand that by now.

                  But despite all of your childhood and familial experiences, it sounds like you’ve been able to stand up and protect yourself without a man coming in to save the day, and that’s all we’re asking of this hypothetical woman Moxie’s talking about: to cut through the bullshit and make her own decisions.

                  Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

    • Paula Says:

      A adult woman of sound mental competency is not an elderly grandmother.

      The reason why taking money from some elderly grandmothers is wrong even though they say yes is because they may have diminished capacity and an unclear understanding of how much money she needs to live on. However, I borrowed money from my elderly grandmother when I was alive because she was sharp as a tack and had more money to spare than anyone else in the family — there was nothing to feel bad about in that situation.

      Also, the guy is not doing something he knows is mean, at least the way Moxie has set it up. She said that she wants to become exclusive because they are sleeping together regularly. You could assume, as some people have, that it’s because she has feelings for him. You could also assume that it’s because she wants to lessen her risk of acquiring an STI. Or you could assume that she wants him to be available more often for sex than he is if he’s also seeing other people — that he’s not available enough when *she’s* horny and wants to sleep with him, rather than vice versa.

      To assume any of those things when they are not what she has told him is sexist and paternalistic at best, and flat out wrong at worst. Part of wearing the big girl panties (or taking them off) is to accept responsibility or your actions and to communicate clearly with your sexual partner. If she hasn’t done that in a situation where he has, then she’s at fault.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

      • Paula Says:

        I meant when *she*, my grandmother, was alive…I’m still alive, but she is not. But when she was, there was no taking advantage of her, believe me.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

        • Saj Says:

          Also these guys would take advantage of anyone who let them. Instead of completely blaming every victim who fell for it these guys are scumbags plain and simple.

          Because I grew up with these lovely scumbags I learned not to take shit from anybody and to be overly protective of myself but my grandmother came from a very loving family and married a very loving husband and probably didn’t have much experience with lousy people trying to get one over on her and never had to develop these shields.

          This isn’t limited to age. Some people are naive and trustworthy no matter how old they are or their life experience men and women included. I’ve had men I wasn’t interested in try to buy me things in an obvious attempt to try to get me more interested. I knew it wouldn’t work and refused the gifts. Another woman might have taken advantage and I’d call her a bitch for doing that just the same as calling these guys character lacking scumbags.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

          • Paula Says:

            Sure, there are situations where one person, by taking advantage of another’s freely offered gift, is a scumbag. I had a situation recently, known to my friends as the Worst. Date. Ever., where a guy with a watch fetish bought me a watch before our first date, but couldn’t pay his share of the expensive meal at the restaurant he selected, because he gave me all the money he had until payday. I just couldn’t live with myself keeping the watch when I knew I wasn’t going to go out with him again, and that the date had deprived him of his last few dollars, even though he chose to buy me a watch and eat at that restaurant. But some of my friends I should have kept the watch, considering what the date cost me and because it was his choice to give it to me.

            But we’re assuming in Moxie’s hypothetical that the woman has feelings for the guy (which we shouldn’t assume, as there are other legitimate reasons for her to want exclusivity); that she can’t make the best decision for herself, which may be to have sex until she’s ready for a relationship with someone who feels the same way; and that she’s not capable of making better decisions when a guy is honest with her than when he makes a false promise of exclusivity, which would be the real scumbag move in the situation.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

            • dimplz Says:

              Wait, how do you know he bought the watch? Did you see a receipt? For all you know, he could have stolen or re-gifted it, right?

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

              • Paula Says:

                He told me he went to the mall after work to pick it out, and it was the brand, type and color that we’d talked about in advance that morning. I didn’t see the receipt (which as a gift, I typically wouldn’t) but I’m reasonably confident he bought it for me.

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

                • dimplz Says:

                  I’m sure you breathed a sigh of relief then after you dodged that bullet. A guy who spends all his money and then is not ready to go out with you despite planning in advance? I really admire your patience, girl.

                  Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

                  • Paula Says:

                    Well, I have a great story out of the deal….this guy also invited me to his car for a smoke (I don’t smoke), started to kiss and grope me in the middle of smoking his cigarette (ew!), and even after I had pulled away, said “do you want to see it?” while going for his belt buckle. Thankfully he listened to my horrified shriek “no!” before whipping it out. Add the loud country karaoke, the hour’s drive to meet him, and getting a speeding ticket on the way, and you have the Worst. Date. Ever. As one of my friends said, the effort to just whip it out was bad, but the watch fetish was special!

                    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

                  • dimplz Says:

                    He invited you to smoke a CIGARETTE in the car? Ew. Damn, at least offer a joint.

                    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

                    • Paula Says:

                      No kidding! No, he wanted to go out to smoke (I don’t smoke, which is on my profile, and I told him that), and I thought at first I would stay in the restaurant, but the blaring bad karaoke was getting to me. So I thought we’d stand outside while he smoked, but he wanted to do it in an enclosed car, making my clothes and hair smell like smoke. I thought he was just being rude and inconsiderate, but he had ulterior motives…

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      “What is the point of explaining something that you will never understand and have no desire to understand.”

      Well, if I’m failing to understand women, it’s certainly not for lack of trying. I’m a benevolent hobbyist – like a butterfly collector, observing your beauty and your every nuance. To me, your cries that “I’ll never understand women” may as well be the cries of some butterfly annoyed that she got caught in the net.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4

      • Saj Says:

        Haha, your attempts are the same as some robot going…I do not understand human female emotions……they are illogical….they are illogical…..shutting down……

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

  3. Jessa Says:

    This is my feeling. Why do we absolve ANYONE of actions, including sexual actions, and make excuses for selfish behavior? The thing is, for both men and women, a sexual relationship opens up a box of worms. People have a hard time being honest if they REALLY want something. The woman in this scenario clearly wants more and has expressed it. The guy in the scenario has rejected the relationship-but is accepting the sex. Two really opposing views here. Each is entitled. Is he TECHNICALLY responsible for hurt feelings? Not exactly-he’s taking what’s offered. But does he know that it has the potential to hurt her? Absolutely. So- any guy worth his salt should think about that. And ladies-you should remember that to a guy? Sometimes it is “just sex”.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

    • vox Says:

      So what you (and others) are saying is: the onus is on the man to say, “Stop offering sex to me, it will not make me change my mind about being in a reltionship with you.” And then he should never speak to you again. Do I have that Right?

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 5

      • Aldonza Says:

        No, but the point at which he knows she wants more, he is aware that the sex comes with strings. And if he doesn’t want strings, he shouldn’t engage.

        I see them as both culpable. She for just plain making irrational decisions about her relationship and him for inviting the inevitable drama that comes with expecting casual sex from a woman who has informed him that she isn’t casual anymore.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 4

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “he is aware that the sex comes with strings” No, actually, it didn’t. He told her she wasn’t getting an exclusive relationship, and she continued to have sex with him anyway.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

          • Aldonza Says:

            Then he deserves the inevitable drama.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

            • dimplz Says:

              I think rather she deserves what’s coming to her. If someone tells you not to touch something because it’s hot, what do you do? Touch it anyway? You’ve been warned – proceed with caution, or suffer the consequences.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

              • Aldonza Says:

                I already conceded that she does deserve what she gets. But both of them are acting irrationally. Him because he wants sex with no drama, and her because she wants a relationship and thinks sex will get it for her. Eventually something will happen, and there will be lots and lots of drama, hurt feelings, possibly with ancillary damage.

                So, she’s responsible if she gets hurt…and he’s responsible if he gets hurt.

                At the point where something casual becomes something more for either party and not the other, the right thing for *both* to do is let it go.

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

                • dimplz Says:

                  I think people are reading more into this than there is. He doesn’t want a relationship, but there is nothing indicating why he doesn’t want a relationship. He simply doesn’t. She wants a relationship, and there is no other explanation in addition to that other than she wants them to only sleep with each other. In a sense, there already is a relationship, just not exclusive or serious, two people “relating” to each other. Just because he doesn’t want a relationship doesn’t mean he doesn’t have feelings and she does. I just see no reason to demonize either party, which a lot of people on this thread are trying to do. If we were talking about one party going to see a movie the other didn’t, it wouldn’t seem like such a big deal, but because sex is thrown into it, it becomes a bigger deal. If people place that much importance on it, then they should place that much importance on their emotions and psychological responses to the consequences, which would include, having the discussion prior to having sex.

                  Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

                • Crotch Rocket Says:

                  “both of them are acting irrationally. Him because he wants sex with no drama” How is that irrational? Sex does not always cause drama; I have had many FWBs over the years and it was just another thing we did together when both single, no different from bowling.

                  That you are unable to separate sex and love does not mean others can’t. I’ll grant that more women than men are afflicted with this problem, but it’s hardly irrational for a man who isn’t to look for and enjoy having sex with a women who isn’t either. Now, in that light, consider what a woman is saying by continuing to have sex with a man who explicitly tells her he doesn’t want to be exclusive.

                  Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

                  • Aldonza Says:

                    I’m fully aware that plenty of women can separate sex from love (I may or may not be one of them.) And while it may not be irrational to want casual sex, it is irrational to expect the sex to remain casual and drama free after she admits her feelings.

                    Sex doesn’t cause drama. But sex with people you know are attached very frequently does.

                    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

                  • Paula Says:

                    I would understand this position better if the woman had admitted her feelings, but she hasn’t. All she said was that she wanted to be exclusive. Now Craig may be certain that means that she has feelings, but I’m not.

                    I had a FWB want to be exclusive before any feelings were developed, because of his concern about STDs. I said, that’s not a true FWB situation, but I will always play safe and will tell you if I’m sleeping with someone else, which I did. Another situation wasn’t exclusive, but that meant that he was never available when I had needs, but wanted me to be available when he did. I would have preferred exclusivity so that there was more room on his schedule, but decided to recruit backups rather than depending on him.

                    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

    • chuckrock Says:

      I think as long as he is honest with his intentions, ie. doesn’t want to be exclusive, the onus really falls back to her to discontinue the sex if she is going to be hurt if they aren’t exclusive.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  4. Common Sense Says:

    The onus is always on the person with the most experience to leave the other as-happy or happier than they met them. If the man’s done this 20 times, and the woman’s just trying out longer-term non-monogamous sex, it’s his job to take her feelings into account knowing she may not have the experience to do it for herself.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 16

    • Common Sense Says:

      People hate the idea that anyone’s responsible for another person’s feelings eh? I assume some of those thumbs down are guys who like imagining that when they date less experienced girls and leave them feeling shitty it’s none of their concern.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        My thumbs-down wasn’t because I disagreed with your premise, though I do; it was because you’re basing responsibility on some theoretical comparison of experience.

        I’ll grant you, if the woman in this story were sixteen, I could accept the guy taking some of the blame; that is why it’s illegal for adults to have sex with adolescents, who are still figuring this kind of stuff out. However, once you’re an adult, I expect you to take responsibility for your own choices.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

    • Paula Says:

      This assumes that each party knows about the others’ experience, when in fact under this scenario, they’ve probably employed a “don’t ask don’t tell” strategy: the woman because she doesn’t want to know that the guy has as much experience as he does and also wants to put on the bravado that she can handle it; and the guy so the woman won’t automatically decide he’s a player.

      This also rather creepily assumes that the guy is in some sort of quasi-parental role where he has to serve as her protector and guardian of her sexuality and emotional well-being. His responsibility begins and ends with being honest about his feelings, not in deciding what’s best for her over her statements and actions to the contrary.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

      • Common Sense Says:

        For posterity, to address your concerns:

        “on the person with the most experience,” male or female.

        If both people are experienced, or don’t know each other’s experience, then who cares.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  5. Paula Says:

    I think each of us have to be responsible for our own feelings. It’s not a man/woman thing or what certain genders typically experience after sex. It’s a treating other humans the way you want to be treated thing.

    If you don’t assume that because I’m a woman I feel a certain way, I won’t assume that because you’re a man, you feel a certain way. If I can’t trust the words that come out of your mouth more than my potentially stereotyped, cynical, societially-influenced views of how you should feel, then I shouldn’t be with you.

    After that, Maya Angelou says it best: “The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them.”

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0

    • Saj Says:

      Sure we are responsible for ourselves but I would like to think in a decent world we’d also take care into not hurting those around us more then possible and if we did feeling a bit of guilt for it. Sadly this isn’t the case for many people and also in a decent world I would love they wouldn’t get rewarded with sex for it.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

      • Paula Says:

        Again, that assumes that the woman isn’t also receiving some reward from it, whether it’s great sex, social validation, not being alone and horny on certain nights of the week, the guy’s company, or any other reason that doesn’t assume that she can’t manage her feelings once the guy has told her where he stands.

        It seems like the only reason anyone is assuming that she’s getting hurt is because she’s a woman…it’s not because she told the guy she’s in love with him. If the guy wants to be especially cautious beyond saying he doesn’t want an exclusive relationship, he could ask her why she does, and state why he doesn’t. That’s really the crux of the issue, not the exchange Moxie describes, and the kind of conversation that two people sleeping together should be having about it if they’re so worried about getting hurt or hurting someone else.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  6. Steve From the City Next Door Says:

    Perhaps if we look at a similar situation but has less emotion attached to it.

    I have been out of work for some time. I had a contract job and then potential to be hired on as an associate. The problem is that they don’t want to pay near what I want and the amount of vacation is not what I would like. Negotiation didn’t get me anywhere. Given the job market I basically had to take it. Now several months later I am really feeling taken advantage of. Am I at fault? them? Both? Neither, it is just the way it is?

    (this is actual a combination of a couple of peoples experience.)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

    • Aldonza Says:

      I think this would be akin to living in some remote place with a very limited number of women and settling for a woman who thinks she’s an 8, but in any city would be stretching to be a 4. You took what the market offered.

      It can’t always be the dot-com boomtimes where spelling “HTML” got you a job starting at $80K and dating is almost like being the only guy in a roomful of horny supermodels.

      It’s always relative.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  7. Kurt Says:

    How could this possibly be the man’s fault? If the woman continues to sleep with a man whom she knows doesn’t want to commit to her, then it is exclusively he fault if she gets hurt. Honestly, if a woman ends up in this situation it is probably because she is going for a man who is out of her league. I am sure that there are many single men in her dating league, but she is choosing to ignore them. She is also lowering her future dating value because she will almost certain emerge from this casual relationship as a more bitter and more jaded woman, which is very unattractive.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 8

  8. Trouble Says:

    Nobody can take advantage of you without your permission. She is 100% responsible. Only by owning our power over our choices can we make better ones.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

  9. Dimplz Says:

    It’s your job to take care of yourself. If someone gives you a heads up that’s wonderful, just because it’s considerate. I echo Trouble. People treat you as well or as bad as you allow them to.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

    • Angeline Says:

      Yes – this. The guy does the adult thing and comes clean, and he should be held responsible for her continuing to beat her head against a wall? She gets the honesty she says she wants, and has to be an adult too.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  10. Stacey Says:

    Assuming there was voluntary and knowing consent as to the arrangement, the responsibility is on the woman. It’s called “assumption of risk.”

    However, in certain instances, I would argue she may not be capable of voluntary and knowing consent and then the responsibility would then shift back to the man. Aside from the obvious examples of the woman being under a certain age, or mentally challenged, I would think the presumption of voluntariness could be waived if there is extremely unequal bargaining power in the relationship. If for instance the woman is clearly in love with the man, so her rational judgment is severely impeded, a parallel to being under the influence.

    Or, and I see the point Common Sense was making here, if she vis-a-vis the man is extremely inexperienced, the bargaining power cannot really be equal there either. Though the latter would be a hard line to draw, because exactly how much experience would she need to have before she would need to start taking responsibility for her actions?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “the woman is clearly in love with the man, so her rational judgment is severely impeded, a parallel to being under the influence.” Love as a mental disability? Good grief.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

      • Aldonza Says:

        Actually love shares a lot in common with the clinical diagnosis of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. The brain chemistry involved is even similar. I don’t offer that up as absolution of sins, but as an understanding of human behavior.

        Similarly it’s been proven that men lose their higher brain functions (rational thought) when looking at a very sexually appealing woman. Do you doubt evidence of that?

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “men lose their higher brain functions (rational thought) when looking at a very sexually appealing woman” I don’t doubt it–but I still don’t use it as an excuse for poor choices I’ve made. Ditto for poor choices I’ve made when drunk.

          What’s next, absolving men of rape because they’re not responsible for their actions when they see an attractive woman? If that’s how you think, there are several countries in the Middle East that would suit you; when you move, remember to pack a burqa so you’re not stoned to death on arrival for being a whore and tempting men to rape you because they can see your skin.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

          • Aldonza Says:

            You’ll notice i didn’t absolve her. Personally I think she’s being an idiot.

            Understanding why someone is behaving a certain way is useful, but people are still individually responsible for their actions, regardless of what their irrational brain is telling them.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

      • Stacey Says:

        Actually yes, there are many different types of “love” but the infatuation/crazy aboutyou/ can’t live without you early love can definitely make otherwise rational people do crazy things. I’m going to guess based on your answer that you’ve never experienced it.. But Men can definitely go “crazy” too in this stage, if the woman they”love” doesn’t want to see them anymore.

        For example, when I was in college,a guy who I told we should take a “break” from seeing each other,left my house, drank a bottle of vodka and decided to go driving . He ended up crashing and losing his license. Another time we were fighting, he had to get checked into our student health services center because he was having self destructive thoughts. This is obviously an extreme example but there has been another man, who when I’ve cut it off and told him not to contact me (admittedly harsh but necessary at the time), started to call my phone pretty much non stop for two days in a row (i had like a 100 missed calls), to the point where I had to call the phone company to try to block him but they told me all i could do was change my cell phone number,. Both these men are now in long term relationships (one is married, another living with a woman), so they are *relatively* rational men but when in love,people do crazy things.

        Therefore I definitely stand by my equation if one person is clearly in love with you, where they would agree to engage in behavior that is clearly and ultimately self destructive to their well being or self esteem, the person who is not in love with them back, has at least an ethical duty to not take advantage of them. If for no other reason than karma.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

  11. icara Says:

    I think she needs to own her choices. She knows where she stands with him, and is still choosing to sleep with him. She knows the terms. If she’s not okay with it, or can’t get okay with it, or isn’t okay with it after a certain period of time, then she should start choosing differently. Certainly she knows the risks of getting too emotionally involved with a guy who doesn’t reciprocate her feelings.

    He knows she has feelings for him, but he isn’t deceiving her, so I don’t think I can say he’s taking advantage of that situation just from the information presented. If he leads her on emotionally and implies that exclusivity is perpetually imminent (for example), that would be different.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  12. Craig Says:

    It’s the woman’s fault. The dude was honest and upfront. There was no deception, which is the only time it would be the man’s fault. Yet she made the choice to still stay and continue to sleep with him. A man is not responsible for saving a grown woman from herself. I don’t thing you can debate that unless you think women are weak, helpless creatures that need to be saved from themselves. I personally don’t subscribe to that theory.
    That said, I agree with Aldonza above when she says the guy deserves the inevitable drama that results. When a man chooses such a situation, he loses the right to complain about drama or that a woman is “crazy”. After all, the situation is one of his making.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  13. Bill Says:

    Realistically when a women have intense chemistry with a man in the beginning 99% is because he is the kind of man she would want to procreate she has no choice is how humans are designed. When women feel intense chemistry they always want to put out and have sex from experience not what they want to say. The men who have these women feeling high intense chemistry is going to take the easy vagina.

    Women behave way too much on there emotional happiness that emotional happiness always leads to having sex quickly with a man above your league and it always leaves you used.

    Note: this will happen frequently if you are a women who doing online dating. This will happen a lot a lot less if you are dealing with a man you met at church, work function, through personal friends, because there are consequences for sleeping with women who you consider easy ass and you do not want to have a relationship with.

    The internet is leading the way for women to find men they are intentsenly attracted to that they will sleep with and later figuring out he was only there for the sex.

    This happens because people especially women go online to find dates because they can not find what they truly desire in real life. Thus they figure online dating would lead them to finding that they desire which always leads to just fwb.

    Online Dating & Real Life dating is the same. Except in real life dating you have consequences to deal with thats why people don’t fuck around with people who are in there main social circle.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 6

  14. Memoirs of a Single Dad Says:

    I love the debates that your posts always generate! Fly-on-wall happy place!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  15. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    Regarding my comments and the discussion above, here’s an example from a comment on Moxie’s other post:

    Referring to anal sex, she writes: “I have always been turned on by thinking about, but the one time I did try with a guy I was seeing I really didnt enjoy it. And I was dissaponted because I always assumed I would really enjoy it, beasuse the thought had alwasys and still does turn me on. I think that I would try it again with someone I am in a commited relationship with.”

    So, to this woman, anal sex has some “fantasy” appeal to but, in practice she didn’t like it, presumably because having your anus ripped apart is, at best, uncomfortable and, at worst, horrifyingly painful. Yet, she can’t wait for that special day that she can experience this again “in a committed relationship.” I wonder what the correlation is between being “in a committed relationship” and enjoying an an otherwise unpleasant thing like anal sex?

    Do you think god (or nature) created women in such a way so that they would attach emotional importance to ANAL sex? Why would he do that? And, if not, what do you think is the source of the emotion that this woman attaches to it? I submit it’s the same source that causes women to attach emotion to vaginal sex. Feel free to consider it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

    • Vox Says:

      Bang a woman in the ass, even if she hates it, she will most likely end up more attached to you. You probably don’t get that, but then again you just don’t get women (when it comes to sex and emotions, anyway).

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4

      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        Yawn.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

      • Paula Says:

        DMN, you’re completely right about this one. I don’t see a single thing about anal sex that creates intimacy. Even if you believe the oxytocin bullcrap and think something magical results from a female orgasm that doesn’t happen with a male orgasm, there’s no biological imperative that creates warm fuzzy feelings from something that is likely to cause you more pain if not done correctly, isn’t going to make babies, and is almost impossible to perform face-to-face.

        Either it turns you on and you like it, or it doesn’t and you don’t. Or you’re scared of trying it and are attaching some sort of outsized significance to it that doesn’t match reality. In my experience, it’s been the guys who are all about pushing the boundaries of the sexual experience who desire it the most, which usually means they are mostly about what kind of freaky sex you’re willing to have with them, not about becoming more bonded and intimate in the emotional, not sexual sense of the word. The guys who care about you the most are less interested in doing something they fear might cause you pain or that you would consider disrespectful.

        You may say you’re only going to do it with people you trust or within the context of a committed relationship, but the relationship/trust has to be there first…yet another instance of people conflating correlation with causation. There isn’t a butt cherry button that instantly makes you oh so close when it gets pushed.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

  16. Mr Big Says:

    Or maybe she enjoyed the sex and possibly was having sex with multiple men but didn’t want to suffer the judgments of doing so and just rationalised that it was all the man’s fault and like all men he is just a big jerk and then allow her friends to agree and tell her what she wants to hear and so her friends must be right.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

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