How Important Is It That He Plan The First Date?

I recently had a Tweet exchange with  young woman on Twitter. She was annoyed that a man she had met sent her a message and said that he didn’t know what they should do for their date. He asked her to propose something. She said she wanted to reply back and propose he grow a pair and make a plan.

Here’s the thing. When men don’t ask for our help, we roll our eyes and say they’re arrogant or stubborn. But when they do, we quickly jump to the “be a man” defense.

We’ve talked about this whole attacking a man’s masculinity for not fulfilling our idea of what constitutes being a man.

Planning a date has nothing to do with being a man. Just like picking out  a cute outfit has nothing to do with being a woman. Going for the jugular and waging war on his manhood just makes us look like shrews.

I agree that it’s nice when the guy has a plan. It takes the onus off of us. It makes us feel, say it with me now, valued because it indicates that he’s trying to impress us. I get it. But with gender roles and dating in general in a constant state of flux and change, we all have to be a bit more bendy.

There are reasons why a man might ask us to help plan the date. Such as:

1. He doesn’t know us very well and doesn’t know what we’d like.

2. He’s afraid we’ll think whatever plan he does devise is “lame.”

3. He’s got a ton of stuff on his plate and genuinely doesn’t have 20 – 30 minutes to go through Yelp and find a good place.

4. He has no idea where you’ll be coming from, where you work or live, and doesn’t want to suggest someplace inconvenient.

And, yes…

5. He’s half-assing it because he’s not terribly interested.

If he’s not that interested, there will be many other signs indicating that this is the case. You’ll know. Don’t assume that because he doesn’t have a map and itinerary drawn up that he’s being lazy and just trying to get you drunk so he can sleep with you.

This is another one of those things, along with Texting vs. Calling and How Long He Should Wait to Have Sex, that is about nothing more than us wanting the man to prove to us how invested he is and that we’re special. We want to know that they consider us worth the effort. We want them to impress us. I realize that many of us have experienced some disappointments. I know how hard it is to get up the energy to be open minded or to look forward to another date. If that’s how you’re feeling, then you need to take a bit of a break, because you’re creating exit strategies before you ever even meet the guy. If you’re going in to the date with your guard up or you’re looking for something to go wrong, something will. You’re wasting your time and his. If you sit there and make a mental note of everything he says and does, marking things off and checking off boxes, you’re missing the fun!

None of this is about gender roles or feminism or respect. All of these things are about how we view ourselves and our unwillingness to take a risk.  We want to know exactly what we’re getting in to and if it will be worth the 90 minutes we spend getting ready and the $30 we spend on our pedicure.

It’s about not wanting to feel like a fool. So really, we’re coming at situations like this from the same place. Neither of us want to make a wrong move and end up looking silly or making a bad impression.

I think much of this desire for a “man with a plan” is that women use this as a way to gauge a man’s confidence and assertiveness. Maybe even his dominance. We don’t want a guy who’s too submissive. I understand that . But we should want a man who values our opinion or who isn’t afraid to ask us for help. That shouldn’t be held against him.

Another thing to consider is that, since many of our first dates come from meeting online, the first date is no longer what a first date used to be. Now you want to find a place that’s quiet, well lit…and has an accessible exit. We all have our favorite haunts. But is that really where we want to have our first date? A place where we know the staff, who maybe has seen us with other people, or maybe is too loud or rowdy? Let’s face it…people don’t just judge us on who we hang out with, but where. So if someone has two or three favorite pubs that they frequent after work or with co-workers, its unlikely they’ll want to meet you there. We want some privacy, right? (As a side note…if you live in NYC, check out The House on 17th & Irving Place. One of the best spots I’ve been to in a long time. Perfect if you’re going on a first date.) So, there’s a lot to consider. And it’s not always as easy as going through a listing of bars on some website.

Now, I do think it’s wise for a man to have an idea of what the first date should involve. But it shouldn’t be a requirement. Nor should it be one of those things we use to test a man’s mettle, so to speak. I don’t think it makes the woman too eager or too desperate if she makes suggestions or helps come up with what to do.

What do you think? Should a man be responsible for coming up with the first date plan? If so, why or why not?

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189 Responses to “How Important Is It That He Plan The First Date?”

  1. nathan Says:

    I tend to offer simple plans for first dates. I’m willing to do that. I also have no problem when a woman offers a first date idea. Nor does it matter to me, if we get drinks or dinner, whether I pay or she pays or we split the check.

    But sometimes, the whole thing feels like a job interview. Like I’m expected to “prove” I’m a “worthy” candidate by making all the first moves, paying for multiple dates, and taking all the risks in sharing details about my life.

    Women talk a lot about confidence. And I totally get why that’s sexy, and have had a much better dating life in the past three or four years, having buried some of my old fears, shyness, and hang ups.

    But confidence is different than control. And when a woman expects a man to do all the work on a date, or in the beginning of a relationship, that’s more about control than confidence. Confidence includes knowing when to listen, share the responsibility, or even let another lead. It’s really about the ability to be yourself, express who you are and what you think, and act when a situation calls for it.

  2. Elros Says:

    This is a great topic and I agree 100%. Women who want a big production for the first date are setting themselves up to be taken advantage by players, because they are the ones who put all the effort at making the best first impression because they have nothing else to back it up. It is sad that so many independent women set themselves up to be manipulated because they fall for the same tricks.
    One other thought- I usually ask if the woman as any suggestions because I would like to select a place that they would enjoy. Why can’t two people just go out and enjoy someplace nice? Why does it have to be this sick, high pressure game where people can’t be relaxed and sincere? I have many friends who are happily married, and the things that keep them together are completely different than “rules” like this one.

  3. Christina Says:

    I realize that I’m probably a lot less traditional than most women, but part of the fun of the first meet while dating was figuring out what to do. It was usually something we worked out together. Maybe one or both of us had an idea and we’d just talk it over.

    I look askance at guys who try to take charge of every detail upfront, or those who seem to have no mind of their own. Figuring this part out was for me, a good first indicator of how compatible we might be.

  4. VJ Says:

    Been there, done that. We’re talking about long ago & far away, but I often took 1st dates out to concerts. Jazz concerts, Blues concerts, even Symphony concerts. It was so often so under-whemingly successful, I eventually learned to take a ‘gal pal’ from work out on the date rather than bother trying to find someone to ‘enjoy’ the night life with me on a ‘real’ date. She actually appreciated it and learned something from it.

    However most of the rest of them did not understand or appreciate the music. Most were just pig ignorant about the art being expressed, even during museum openings/showings too. And sometimes happily & proudly so! I can also easily count on the fingers of one hand the number who actually seemed to enjoy the effort, and reciprocated in any way. I seldom got any 2nd dates for the trouble too.

    Hence our frustration with someone like the letter writer who comes into the scene with that whole entitled ‘what have you done for me lately’ chip on her shoulder. I can’t tell you how unattractive that is on anyone. Today first dates ought to be very informal ‘get to know you’ sorts of deals. Anything else is really likely to be wasted effort, time & especially money, especially in NYC & other large cities.

    So just another reminder & word of suggestion. Want more dates & more successful dates? Make it easier on each other with fewer lofty expectations. Coffee, drinks and not much else for a start. I can still see some of the bewildered expressions from some of my dates after some of the most exciting concerts I’d ever seen. If it was not old standard ‘rock & roll’ and Their particular type, they were done for. I was tired of dating 20 something kids all the time. They’re still ‘kids’ at 40 & 50 something. But some of them have actually educated their tastes somewhat. A decided minority to be certain, but those were my intended audience. The truly ‘smart’ and adventurous types. Not listening to the same old stuff year after year! Cheers & Good Luck, ‘VJ’

  5. Dimplz Says:

    This reminds me of a movie I have called “Kissing Jessica Stein.” It sounds like the woman is not open to dating right now, so she tries to find fault with anything. Here’s a scene that captures what I’m saying perfectly.

  6. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    Okay. I LOVED that movie. And this scene is fucking genius. Plus i t has Jon Hamm.

  7. LT Says:

    Yes, that is a great movie and isn’t the woman that plays Jessica, Jon Hamm’s live-in GF?? What a lucky woman – ha!!

  8. WO7 Says:

    I don’t ever let the woman plan the first date. Simply for the reason that when given the option, women always just “happen” to pick a place that costs way more than what I was hoping to spend on a FIRST date. Sorry ladies, I’m not becoming “Mr. Generous” (or Mr. Creative) with you until we make it to date 4. Dates 1-3 are too often a complete waste of money and time in online dating.

    I have spent a good deal of time compiling a list of places that are reasonably priced but have great date ambiance. So I’d rather go to one of those places then someplace that destroys my wallet for the same experience.

    When I let a woman pick, she always seems to want to go somewhere in the Meat Packing district ($15 drinks), or go to a well known restaurant ($30+ an entree). There are plenty of nice places with $8 drinks and ~$20 an entree. But yeah, I don’t take women out to dinner on a first date anyway.

    Now as for this woman…it is ridiculous that she cares that he hasn’t planned the whole date. This is another instance of unrepresentative rules women come up with to weed out men. They’re not going to find their one true love based on whether he plans the first date or not! They should concentrate on worrying about things that matter. Is he kind, funny, interesting? Is there a spark? Are you attracted to him? Basically, anything where the reason you’re weeding out a person is something that can be easily expressed on a piece of paper instead of by meeting them is a bad reason to weed someone out.

    And while I always pick the place, I will try to talk it out with the woman to figure out what neighborhood is convenient for both of us.

    • Ellie Says:

      All women are golddiggers, amirite????

      And, THAT’S why you’re single.

      • Curious in the Chi Says:

        I’m going to go out on a limb and say that he’s coming from the point of view of a guy who’s been burned one too many times by gold diggers. All he’s trying to do is protect himself, because he has outgrown the idea of “taking chances” on a first date. Myself? That’s exactly what I do. I can ask her what she wants to do, but if she says, “let’s do Tapas or Sushi” on our first date, I don’t want to put myself in the position of having to say, “Nah, baby, let’s go to X place that’s cheaper” because them I’m getting judged for “being cheap.”

      • WO7 Says:

        Ha, look at you thinking you made a funny.

        My post has nothing to do with gold diggers. A gold digger is someone that specifically dates a man for his money. She is “out for his money” and nothing else.

        I am pointing out, that when given the chance, women pick a “nice” place to go out on a date. And that these “nice” places rarely take into consideration the cost of paying for two people on a date, that the date may not result in a second date, and that the man may be going on 2 dates a week (minimum) if he is actively dating.

        What I do has nothing to do with protecting myself from gold diggers. It’s about protecting myself from wasting too much money on people I am just getting to know, and may not know longer than a few weeks.

        It’s very easy to protect yourself from gold diggers. They’re the ones asking you to take them to a Broadway show on the first date. They’re the ones asking you to take them on trips. They’re the ones somehow working their way into a store and trying to get you to buy them things.

        Safe to say, I have never been the sucker that is burned by one of these types.

        • Big Package Says:

          I agree with W07.

          I also never let a first date pick the restaurant because she might choose one that is out of my budget. Not that I want to spend $75 for a steak or $15 for a cosmopolitan, but there is a limit. Therefore, I set my budget at no more that $40 for dinner on a date.

          There are over 18 nice restaurants in NYC that I fall within this guidelines and I can get her an appetizer, entree and dessert for my price. All of them are decent restaurants with plenty to choose from on the menu. There’s simply no reason to spend more for dinner on a Saturday night.

        • Kvincent Says:

          I like a man to discuss with me the first date because I insist on going dutch. I make my own money and don’t need anyone paying my way. That and it seems more is expected if the man pays. I don’t like that feeling of obligation. Now if we’ve gone past 3 dates ….its nice if they pay but not all the time. Sometimes I like to treat. Not all women are gold diggers. Some actually have class and are self sufficient.

      • Steve Says:

        Well, a good chunk of the women out there ARE golddiggers. If this were not so, then why would any woman care what a man’s income is. Women love to whine about how they are continually objectified, but they never seem to realize that men are objectified all the time and ranked according to where they fit on the income yardstick, or according to how tall and good looking they are.

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      I have never, in my life, picked an expensive place to meet for a drink. If this “always” happens to you when the woman picks the place, then that’s all about you and what sort of women you’re drawn to. And sometimes I’ll bet the women who pick these places aren’t even doing it because they expect you to pay for their expensive night out. If you scoff at a couple rounds of $15 drinks, or shudder at the idea of spending more than $75 on a date, date in Brooklyn, not Manhattan.

      • D Says:

        $75 on two first dates per week adds up.

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          2 first dates per week for longer than a few months means something’s wrong. Stop dating the wrong women or figure out why they don’t go on 2nd dates with you and you’ll save some money.

          • D Says:

            Longer than a few months? I’m talking about one month. So it’s okay for a guy to drop $300 in a couple weeks on four dates? Of course it is – it’s not your money.

            On a first date I rarely spend more than the cost of a cup of coffee. If I really like her we’ll transition into dinner, but somewhere inexpensive.

            • chuckrock Says:

              I see the logic behind coffee on a first date entirely, D, I do. However, I have never had a coffee date go well enough for there to be a second date. I don’t know what it is and if it’s just coincidence or not.

              I had sworn off coffee dates recently when I had to do another one because the outdoor date we had planned got canceled and she suggested we just meet at starbucks. Turned out to be a dud, after a pretty good build up to it.

      • WO7 Says:

        Damn Moxie, what an incredibly ignorant response.

        Do you honestly think $15 is the going rate for a drink in Manhattan? Then you are exactly the clueless Manhattan woman who I’m talking about in my post.

        $15 a drink is Meat Packing, Hotel Bars, and some Rooftop Bars. All the normal places are $8-$10 a drink, and I can find plenty of places that are $6 a drink. Throw happy hour into the mix, and you can get down to $4 a drink. But I suppose you’re too good to be caught in a place with anything less than $15 drinks? If every place in Manhattan was the kind of place these $15 a drink places are, then we’d have one hell of a boring, homogeneous, gentrified, sack of shit city filled with vapid Sex in the City wannabees.

        I’d also like to point out that your post goes against one of the main points you are usually advocating in your other posts. That a woman should not expect too much on a first date. That a guy who’s never met a woman and has never gotten to know them doesn’t owe them anything. Yet here you are feeling entitled to a $75 date!

        And your Brooklyn diss (you have a long standing tradition of looking down on the boroughs) just proves you’re a classist snob. You should really work on not coming off this way. It’s extremely unattractive.

        Here’s the rub. Most single girls choose to go out with their female friends to these $15 a drink places because they’re hoping to meet someone who looks good and makes bank. If I’m going on a date with someone, they shouldn’t be out looking for other prospects, and we shouldn’t have to pay the premium to be surrounded by the beautiful and well to do when the entire point of the meeting is for us to have a chat and get to know one another.

        And I will reiterate what I’ve already said. I never said these women are doing it on purpose. I’m simply saying they’re doing it. To them, normal is a fancy rooftop, wine bar, or meat packing lounge. To them, normal is a fancy dinner place. These are the places they go out with their girl friends when they go out. So it’s obvious they are the first places that would come to mind when offered the option of picking the spot.

        It doesn’t “always” happen. But it happens enough that it’s better for me to just take control of where the date is going to be instead of roll the dice on whether the woman is going to suggest an expensive place or not.

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          $15 a drink is Meat Packing, Hotel Bars, and some Rooftop Bars.
          Go to any half way decent wine bar in Union Square, Midtown, the UWS or the UES and the cheapest glass of wine is $12-$13. Don’t talk to me like I’m some gold digging whore. Maybe these women “always” choose such refined places because they don’t want to have to deal with some rowdy, loud bar serving $6-$8 watered down drinks just so you can save $20.

          That a guy who’s never met a woman and has never gotten to know them doesn’t owe them anything. Yet here you are feeling entitled to a $75 date!

          It’s not about feeling entitled. It’s about wanting to go out with someone who doesn’t have an adding machine in his head ticking off how much he’s spending on his dates. My friend and I went out to a bar this weekend. He had no idea how expensive the place was. I didn’t think twice about contributing to that $120 bill. It was gracious of him to offer, and I was happy to pitch in. THAT’S WHAT WE’RE LOOKING FOR. Not a guy who grows resentful if we order a 2nd or 3rd drink. If you don’t like the idea of spending that much, then stop dating women in Manhattan, and stop going to places in Manhattan. If we’re all such snobs, stay home. You’ve been complaining about the same thing literally for years.
          Most single girls choose to go out with their female friends to these $15 a drink places because they’re hoping to meet someone who looks good and makes bank.

          If they’re paying for their own drinks, why does that bother you so much? You get what you pay for. And if those women can pull the hot i-banker, and they can pay their own way, then more power to them. If they work hard enough at a job that they can afford to do that, then that’s their right. And even if they don’t pay for those drinks, why is it their fault because they can find men willing to shell out that kind of money for them? Unless maybe you’ve been one of those suckers who thought he could win a girl’s attention by buying her things.

          • D Says:

            Unless maybe you’ve been one of those suckers who thought he could win a girl’s attention by buying her things.

            This perfectly sums up the cognitive dissonance that is the female mind.

            1. A guy should never try to win attention by buying things
            2. If you don’t pay, you’re a loser who doesn’t deserve a woman’s attention

            I always pay, but not because I’m intrinsically better than other men. I just know that women constantly, constantly, constantly judge men. The best a guy can do is remove things from consideration.

            So I pay the fucking bill even if she’s a crappy conversationalist and not that hot, because I don’t want to run the risk of her dissing me to other prospects.

          • WO7 Says:

            Holy shit, you are so off base in your response I don’t even know where to begin.

            Let’s dispel some of your gross exaggerations, assumptions, and ignorance.

            I don’t have an adding machine in my head when I’m out on a date. Just because I try to pick places that are smart, in order to spend my money wisely, doesn’t make me some Mr. Penny pincher scrooge sitting there tabulating the bill 24/7. The whole point of picking a smart place is so that you never even feel that way. Regardless, if I agree to go to a place, then I’m there to have a good time. I spend what I spend, and I don’t worry about.

            So despite not worrying about what I’m spending when I’m out…at the end of the month, it’s time to pay the bills, and I have to pay attention to what I’m spending. Otherwise I’m just some dumb idiot sinking myself into debt without a clue as to how he got there.

            “Any halfway decent wine bar…” no need to read further. If you have to go to a wine bar you’re a snob. Bottom line. And to correct your ignorance once again…I’ve been to plenty of nice wine bars where I can grab a decent bottle for $40. A bottle of wine is plenty of wine for a date.

            To further correct your ignorance, not all $6-$8 places serve watered down drinks or are rowdy and loud. God you sound like such a white gloved rich snob when you say stupid shit like that. I would never go to someplace crowded or loud for a date. How the hell am I going to talk to someone if it’s loud? How are we going to feel comfortable if it’s packed?

            I don’t see how trying to go to places that are less likely to result in a $75 bill at the end of the night is equivalent to having an adding machine in my head. That’s false.

            You are also making assumptions that I don’t have my fare share of going out with friends and easily dropping a few hundred without batting an eye. We’re talking about going on 1st and 2nd dates. In the online dating world, 1st and 2nd dates are the interview process. Why the hell am I going to spend premium money on the basic interview? That’s just stupid.

            Now you are bringing up people being resentful. Where did you pull that out of your ass? I can’t remember ever being resentful at a woman for ordering what she wanted on a date. Just because I’m on your damn site trying to give women an idea of things from a man’s perspective doesn’t make me some bitter old shrew.

            You seem to have completely missed the basic point I made. I do my best to be the one to make the plans and to choose places that are both good for romance, and reasonably priced for 1st and 2nd dates. What’s wrong with that? I have been to a million types of places and paid a million types of bills. I’ve had bar tabs with girls that went to $300. I have never complained or been resentful, but it’s SMART to try to keep those to a minimum. It seems you have a problem with a guy being smart with his money. So you discriminate against people in Brooklyn because they seem “poor”, but you’re happy with a guy who'[s a complete moron with his money and lives hand to mouth. Good luck with that.

            As for your “get out of Manhattan” rant. I’ve been to places in Brooklyn and Queens where drinks cost $15. It has nothing to do with the borough, there are a wide variety of places in every borough. You make it seem like there are no shit holes, average places, and places that are nice, but not super nice in Manhattan. How have you lived this long in Manhattan with this ridiculously false assumption? You really need to get out more and see what Manhattan has to offer, because to you, it’s only worth seeing/doing if it carries a high price tag.

            And you want to complain that I’m complaining about the same thing for years? Holy shit pot meet kettle. You run a damn dating blog! What the hell do you think you’ve been doing for years? Complaining about the same old shit.

            Once again, you completely missed the boat on what I was saying. I’m not complaining that women go out with their friends to nice places. I go out to nice places with my friends to. I’m simply pointing out that there is a different end goal when going out with your single friends and when meeting someone on a 1st or 2nd date. You’re paying a premium price for the chance to meet desirable people at those places. Why the hell would I pay that price when I’m not out to meet anyone?

            When a girl has demonstrated that she’s interested in me, and when I’m interested in her. I love to spend money, experience nice things, buy nice gifts, and come up with creative romantic events.

            But no girl who you’ve never met is worth that. If you feel she is, then you’re probably shooting out of your league and idolizing her.

            So we’re back to the main point you seem to have reneged on. A woman is not entitled to a bunch of hoop jumping and money spent from some guy who doesn’t know her. So there is no reason a 1st or 2nd date should be at the higher end of price scales in Manhattan.

            • Paula Says:

              I want to address the “wine bar equals snob” thing. Life’s too short to drink alcohol you don’t like. I don’t like beer. Never have, and most likely never will. That doesn’t make me a snob, just someone who doesn’t like the taste, and now has a wheat allergy which would make me unable to drink it even if I wanted to.

              I’m happy to pay my way if I need to, but part of having a successful first date is going somewhere where both people can order something they like and can afford. I like neighborhood dive bars as much or more as the next person, but if I can’t order a decent glass of wine (doesn’t have to be expensive — just drinkable), that’s one strike against him, just because I’m much more chatty and conversational after a glass or two. And if he picks someplace that has good wine, that’s something in his favor because it demonstrates we have compatible tastes and/or he wants to choose something I’ll enjoy.

              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                Exactly. I don’t drink beer, and alcohol gives me a headache the next morning. Since losing weight I’ve gotten rid of cocktails almost entirely and stick to wine. Wine bars are quiet and not too crowded. Especially in my neighborhood on a weekday night. And I go in to every date prepared to and expecting to pay my share. If I’m contributing then I have a say, too, as to where we meet.

                • chuckrock Says:

                  And I go in to every date prepared to and expecting to pay my share.
                  do the guys know this prior to the date? I think most men assume that they will be paying the whole bill on a first date and this do not know your expectations.

                  I don’t know of any pub that doesn’t also serve wine, but i do know wine bars that don’t serve beer – not saying that those by you don’t- just that i have experienced it. From my experience a pub is more conducive to those that want beer, cocktail, or wine.

                  • Paula Says:

                    Establishing in advance you’ll go dutch? How would it not be awkward to bring that up? I’ve gone out with around 15 different guys this year, and only a couple have paid for me: one worked in the banking industry and the other was a political consultant, so I’m pretty confident both could afford it just fine, but I still offered nonetheless. The rest, I paid my share, and on one disastrous date my friends and I call The. Worst. Date. Ever., I paid most of the bill when he picked the restaurant and reserved the (expensive) meal in advance, then couldn’t even afford his share.

                    Most pubs serve wine, but rarely is it any good (again, doesn’t have to be expensive, just drinkable). If he doesn’t drink wine, then we don’t have to go to a wine bar, just that he’ll score more points with me if we go somewhere that demonstrates we have common interests and/or he wants to make me happy.

                    • WO7 Says:

                      So what’s the alternative to establishing it in advance?

                      Society now expects women to at least offer to pay their way. But most of the time, if you’re a man, and you allow it, you just lost the battle before it started. So a man will always insist on paying to play it safe. Better to pay for the few women who actually want to pay their share then to lose the majority of women who still don’t.

                      You can get GOOD wine in MANY places other than wine bars.

                    • chuckrock Says:

                      Establishing in advance you’ll go dutch? How would it not be awkward to bring that up? Of course it would be awkward, but that was my point. Since it wasn’t discussed, the guy is usually thinking he is going to pay (your experiences aside -see below) and thus Moxie’s argument really doesn’t have any merit. She said :And I go in to every date prepared to and expecting to pay my share. If I’m contributing then I have a say, too, as to where we meet. The guy doesn’t know she intends and expects to pay part of the bill ahead of time, and thus the requirement of an expensive wine bar (show me a cheap one….please) will not come off well at all.

                      I think the low percentage of guys paying for you on a first date probably has more to do with your personality than anything. Perhaps you are more insistent about it than the average woman? I wouldn’t be able to say without experiencing it, but your percentage certainly has not been my experience in dating. If I have gone out on 20 first dates this past year + then I have paid 15 of those times. The only times i have not are on coffee date meets where I have arrived early and am already sitting with coffee when she gets there. Of the 15 that I have paid for only about 10 have offered and most of those were obvious half hearted attempts where i knew they expected me to say no.

                    • Paula Says:

                      I think why it happens so much for me, is that the dating site I use has my income range listed, I’m in a professional position, and am often if not usually going out with someone who makes less than I do. In that situation, I think it’s only right that I pay my way — really, the only argument against it is adherence to traditional gender roles. (Based upon your name change preferences, perhaps you’re going out with more traditional women, chuckrock? not trying to start that up again, but it may be less a personality thing than a values thing.)

                      I wouldn’t want to go out with someone who’s only paying because he thinks it’s a strike against him, because that demonstrates that he doesn’t get me at all. If he pays, I want it to be out of generosity and because he derives pleasure from my company, and knows that I’ll reciprocate next time.

                    • chuckrock Says:

                      is that the dating site I use has my income range listed,

                      I usually don’t answer that question. One of the traits I am looking for is for her to be non-materialistic – so I feel if she won’t get to know me not knowing what I make, then she isn’t for me anyway.

                      not trying to start that up again, but it may be less a personality thing than a values thing.

                      I am certainly willing to accept that as a possible alternative. But I would also think that throughout the course of getting to know the guy, whether it be in the lead up to the date or on the date itself, your personality somehow has shown what you values are making it more likely for your typical scenario to play out (this is a positive and a compliment by me, so please don’t look at it otherwise.)

                      that demonstrates that he doesn’t get me at all.

                      a little difficult to really get someone after 1 date, no?

                      and knows that I’ll reciprocate next time.

                      This makes an assumption that there will be and that he knows there will be a next time. I rarely leave a first date knowing for sure there will be a next time.

                      As for me dating traditional women, i guess there is probably some truth to that. I am probably attracted more to the women that hold similar values/morals as me. I tend to go for irish-catholic or italian girls and i suppose they are more likely to believe the things that I do, whether they are religious or not. (for the record i am not overtly religious despite my 14 years of catholic school growing up) so even though I don’t know what their values are yet while on a first date, the odds are in favor of them having more traditional values. Also, I think long island girls are a little bit more traditional than city girls in general (how’s that broad stereotype for you :) )

                      and in other news, because I have been dieing to get feedback on this, the girl i am dating just invited me out tonight to meet some of her friends. You all know what happened with the last girl that did that . This is date 7 though and not date 3. Unchartered territory for me, haha.

                    • Paula Says:

                      I’ve found that listing my income helps weed out guys who might be intimidated by it. Women don’t usually have the same gold-digger problem, at least not until much later in the relationship, so I’ve found it helps more than hurts. I understand why guys, especially those who make a lot, don’t want to put it down, though.

                      In terms of getting me, I think my profile and the number of questions I’ve answered make it pretty easy to get where I’m coming from on gender and equality issues, especially coupled with my career (which for obvious reasons I won’t talk about here, but my dates are going to at least know the basics). Plus, we’ve usually talked at least some prior to the first date, either by chatting, exchanging emails, or by phone.

                      My dating philosophy has been to go out with a pretty wide range of people — I figure a few hours of my time on a first date is generally worth it, even if it doesn’t work out. And if I have a great time, I’ll go out with them again, even if I’m not sure about chemistry. Only once I have I turned someone down for a second date, and that was the Worst. Date. Ever. where the guy was completely oblivious to the typical social cues re: lack of interest. So if there’s not a next time, it’s generally the guy’s call.

                    • WO7 Says:

                      Paula, it has nothing to do with chuckrock’s value set. It’s just the way dating works for men. I am definitely not traditional or conservative. In the last year I have dated women as young as 23, and as old as 36. I am 32. I can say that out of all the women I have dated in the last year, only one has offered to pay and meant it. I took her up on it, and never saw her again. So maybe me letting her pay caused that, or maybe she paid because she wasn’t into me.

                      Either way…the rest of them either never offered, or offered in a very fake way where it was obvious they were just doing it because they were supposed to, and that they expected me to pay.

                      The check paying goes down in 1 of two ways.

                      I start reaching for the check and pull out my wallet.
                      She says “How much is it?”
                      I say “Don’t worry about it, I’ve got it.”
                      a. She says “Are you sure?” <–this means she expects me to pay
                      I say "Yeah, no problem."
                      b.She says "No, I insist, I like to pay my fair share."
                      I say "Are you sure?"
                      She says "Yes."
                      Now I let her pay half.

                    • Susan Says:

                      W07, how do those two check-paying scenarios affect how you think about the woman and the date? Do you prefer one over the other? And what if she offered to pay the tip? Or said, “Thanks, next one’s on me”?

                    • Susan Says:

                      So chuckrock, what happened with meeting the gf’s friends???

                    • chuckrock Says:

                      Her friends canceled on her, so it was postponed until tonight. But now it is a dinner party at the friend’s house. So now I will likely be even more on the spot :)

                      OH, and she isn’t my gf…we are dating. It looks like it is going in that direction (and I would be happy if it did) but we aren’t there just yet.

                    • WO7 Says:

                      Hey Susan. Honestly, there isn’t a ton of effect from how it plays out. Just a minor one. Whether I had chemistry with the person and am attracted to them matters much more at this stage.

                      There was one girl I was dating, and somehow the dates always seemed to end up costing $100 because the dates would go long. She never reached for the check and never offered to contribute. By the 3rd date I was starting to find it noticeably irritating, but I doubt she had any idea I was thinking it.

                      The rest just effects how much additional respect I have for a woman.

                      If the woman gives a fake offer, I don’t think anything. That’s how it goes down with most of them.

                      If she gives me a sincere offer to pay I have more respect for her.

                      If she forces the issue to pay half I have the most respect for her, but then I get nervous that the reason they’re paying half is because they didn’t enjoy the date and won’t see me again.

                      If she insists on covering the tip after I politely decline her offer to pay half, that’s the situation that both garners a good amount of respect and doesn’t make me wonder if she had a crappy time on the date.

                    • Susan Says:

                      Thanks for elaborating WO7 (I can’t type that without smiling). These days I always offer to pay the tip. I find the whole “insisting” on splitting the tab thing so uncomfortable, maybe because I travel overseas a lot and have seen people become really — I mean really — offended by that. I like to offer, but if the guy says “no please, it’s my pleasure” or something along those lines, I’ll simply counter with, “thank you for such a nice dinner, and please let me pay the tip.” And they usually do, and then I think we’re both happy. Or at least comfortable. Did you see my post below about the time a guy asked me out and said “whatever you want to do,” so I planned it and then paid? What’s your take on that?

                    • Susan Says:

                      And chuckrock, yeah I realized as soon as I hit send that “gf” was probably overstating it……………! Good luck at the party!

                  • nathan Says:

                    I think this whole discussion shows one of the big problems with first dates. Too many place too much emphasis on something that should be about getting to know each other a little, and having a good time.

                    For every woman who is willing to pay her share, there are two expecting the man will pay – no matter how much the bill is. And too many men are sitting there trying to hard to impress or doing things in hopes of getting sex later.

                    You have women planning weddings and marriage in their heads, and men proposing after an hour in a woman’s presence.

                    Lots of foolishness put into meeting someone that odds are, you won’t see again. Or maybe won’t see more than once or twice again.

                  • Vox Says:

                    I’m a pretty hardcore wine snob – enough so that I don’t discuss wine with most people lest I sound like a pompous jackass. But I don’t mind drinking a glass of crap in a pub on a date. I’m there to meet the guy and see how it goes, not to savor sniff and slurp. I have to agree with the guys on this one. Stop focusing on the quality of the wine, and instead focus on the quality of the date. Or drink a club soda etc.

                • WO7 Says:

                  So then the only thing that matters is your preference then, right Moxie? Cause as chuckrock said, there are a good number of wine bars that don’t serve beer or liquor. So while you are drinking what you want, your date may not be. Compare this to going to a decent place that also serves decent wine. Most places that serve decent drinks serve decent wine.

                  As for the calories, if you mix your drink with soda water instead of sugary mixers, it could be that the liquor has less calories. Depends what kind of wine and liquor you’re drinking. So that argument doesn’t wash for me.

                  And back to my original point, you can get a decent glass of wine at a decent wine bar for $8. You can save even more money when you buy a bottle of it. A bottle is plenty of alcohol for 2 people on a first or second date.

                  You have a completely warped sense of what things cost in this city. Just because you insist on going to fancy spots doesn’t mean that everything costs what those spots cost. And if ALL the spots you go to cost $12-$13 a glass, then you’re going to the fancy spots.

                  The more you know…

                  • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                    I don’t insist on going anywhere, because he chooses the place. If the wine served is pricey, I offer to contribute my share. Simple.

                    I couldn’t care less what you think about me or my reasoning for not drinking alcohol. You missed the point of my comments entirely because you’re so desperate to prove that Manhattan women are all shallow snobs because you’ve been bamboozled a few times.

                    It’s not about how much is spent. It’s about wanting to be out with a guy who doesn’t have a chip on his shoulder.

                    • WO7 Says:

                      So then how do you make sure you go to wine places? What was the point of saying you don’t drink beer or liquor and need to go to a wine bar if you weren’t saying you insisted on a wine bar?

                      I didn’t miss the point. You were stating you had a preference for what to drink. I responded that you were ignoring that the guy may also have a preference. You also acted like a wine bar is the only proper place to drink wine. Completely false.

                      Manhattan women are all snobs? Never said it. You can keep trying to pigeon hole me there to try to make me look like the dick, but it’s not going to work.

                      I’m proving that YOU are a Manhattan snob. This is clear to most people reading your responses who aren’t also snobs themselves.

                      I said if a woman HAS to go to a wine bar, then she’s being snobby. I have certainly met enough Manhattan women to know it’s not true that all (or even most) women have to go to a wine bar. It’s just your warped personal perspective.

                      I have dated women from New Jersey, Long Island, Connecticut, Westchester County, Staten Island, the Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, and Manhattan. I know how to not weed people out for stupid reasons. Notice I am dating “below” what my location dictates. Yet here you are trying to convince me that I shouldn’t date “above” it.

                      Any Manhattan woman (you included) who feels the need to tell Brooklyn to stop dating in Manhattan needs to get a reality check and own the fact that she’s a snob.

                      And all this chip on the shoulder/adding machine bullshit? You’re projecting. Surely you’re smart enough to know the difference between writing out my full thoughts on a subject when I am sitting and analyzing it, and how I actually behave in a date.

                      How about I spell out my main point nice and slow for you one more time so you can actually GET it and stop making responses that are completely and utterly off base.

                      “When given the chance to pick a place to go out, women often choose a place that is more expensive then I would prefer. Often enough, that it makes more sense for me to pick the place, then to let them pick and risk arriving and being surprised with the prices. This is NOT because they’re a gold digger, this is NOT because they’re a snob, and this is NOT on purpose.”

                      Get it yet? Good.

                    • Saj Says:

                      Uh WO7 you are coming off as a dick and there is NO WAY IN HELL that you can hide this level of combativeness to people on a date no matter how pinched your smile is or how laid back you think you are coming off. Dude you got a chip on your shoulder and need to drink one of those drinks and relax the fuck out and stop being such a condescending prick.

                    • WO7 Says:

                      Hey Saj. Explain to me how my actions on an internet forum has any correlation to how I behave on a date?

                      It doesn’t, that’s how. So if your only point in this discussion is to pretend to know how I act on a date, then why don’t you do us all a favor and keep your fabricated hypothesis to yourself.

                      And if you scroll up and look at how many of Moxie’s rebuttals to me have a crap ton of more thumbs down then thumbs up, maybe you’d understand why I don’t have the patience to play nice with her right now.

                      And perhaps you’ll also see how your post also has more negative then positive thumbs. ;-)

                • Alan Says:


                  do you make it clear to your first date prospects prior to the meet and greet that you are expecting to split the tab? Some guys I’m sure will politely decline your pre-date suggestion. Some other guys will use the opening to jointly plan the date. I’m sure you have some experiences to share on this.

                  • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                    No. I don’t let them know I plan on paying my share unless I suggest the location or what we do, which is rare. When the tab comes I get my purse. If they say no, I say I’d like to contribute somehow and then offer to leave the tip.

                    My friend chose the bar we went to the other night. I don’t think he looked at the menu before hand. When the tab came, I put down my money, he said no, I insisted because I’m not letting someone spend $120. That’s a lot of money for wine and food.

                    • chuckrock Says:

                      Clarify something for me please, if you will. Your “friend” – was it a date? Because if you were just with a friend you should have been paying half no matter what….unless it was some occasion like your birthday.

                    • alan Says:

                      Thanks for addressing and I got it. But your example with your friend is a little different than an initial “meet and greet” with someone you have never met in person before.

                      The reason I asked is despite your offer at the first date, unless you make it clear up front it is dutch, the guy is conditioned to pick up the tab and that in my opinion gives him more rights than you as to the place of meeting.

                      However if you make it clear it’s dutch (regardless of his rejecting your offer), I think that gives you equal rights as to place of meeting and if you and your date cannot manage that little negotiation successfully there is no reason to meet at all.

              • WO7 Says:

                I said people who can ONLY go to wine bars are snobs. Moxie made it seem like a wine bar was the only option for a date.

                You can get wine at places other than a wine bar you know. And yes, drinkable wine, not swill. Anyone who thinks you HAVE to go to a wine bar to get a decent glass of wine is a snob.

                • chuckrock Says:

                  This has bugged me too. I bartended in a hole in wall Pub in Flushing for a couple of years. It was definitely not upscale at all, if anything it was the definition of a ‘dive’. We served all sorts of wine and the house wine was pretty darn drinkable. How much was it? $4 a glas….it’s probably $5 or $6 now since i worked there so log ago.

                  Don’t tell me you can’t get decent wine in most pubs in NYC, cause it just ain’t true.

              • Alan Says:


                do you make it clear to your first dating partner prior to your date that you would prefer a place that serves a decent glass of wine?

                • Paula Says:

                  It’s been my experience in dating recently that we plan the date together. One or both of us will pick a neighborhood or cuisine or type of establishment. Then the other person throws out 3 or 4 options. And then the other person chooses from among the options the other person selected.

                  Maybe that won’t work for someone like the OP who needs the guy to take charge and plan all of it, or a guy who’s so wishy-washy or sheltered he can’t come up with any good ideas. But generally, with the kind of guys I date, it’s turned out just fine, as I don’t suggest or select a place where I’m not going to be able to order something I like without breaking the bank (whoever’s bank it ends up being.)

                  Wine bars are admittedly one of my favorite places to go for dates, because they tend to be quieter, and tend to have things to eat that I can eat (meat and cheese, as opposed to fried, breaded stuff) without discussing my food allergies and dietary practices.

                  That’s not to say that other places don’t have good wine and food. But if going somewhere I really like is important to the guy in order to impress me, then a wine bar is it. Does that mean I won’t enjoy other places? Of course not. It’s only if he drags me somewhere he wants to go without checking to see whether I will be able to enjoy the food and drink there that it would really work against him.

                  • alan Says:

                    Paula thanks for answering but that of course was not my question. (ie how you get through the negotiation to determine your first date location.) That negotiation sounds a little exhausting to me.

                    I guess I am very glad I have never dated on line. I meet people the old fashion way. Engaging in person in places I like and if they are there I already know there is some commonality.

                    • Paula Says:

                      The answer is that I don’t have to be that specific, because that would probably come across as a little high maintenance. But if we plan the date together, then everyone’s food, drink, neighborhood and spending preferences can be met.

                      It usually is pretty easy to work it out, unless you’re with someone who can’t do the back and forth decision making thing, in which case, we probably will have trouble getting along.

                  • WO7 Says:

                    Ever tried a tapas bar? They usually serve good finger foods and good wine. It’s usually quiet, has a great date atmosphere, and doesn’t usually have the higher price tag a “wine bar” can sometimes have.

                    Most decent lounges serve good finger foods (not greasy bar foods), good wine, good cocktails, and that same vibe you seem to like at a wine bar.

                    Curious, are you from NYC? Because in NYC there are lots of places that have similar traits to the wine bar vibe you talk about. But when I’ve traveled elsewhere, you usually have to go to a wine bar to get that vibe, everything else feels like a sports bar or a dive. The wine bars outside of NYC are usually much more reasonably priced too.

              • chuckrock Says:

                and now has a wheat allergy which would make me unable to drink it even if I wanted to.

                Paula, are the beers that you can drink despite this allergy? I would guess not, but perhaps. I dated a girl (ok, one date) who had a gluten allergy and I researched and found one or two that she could. My good friend is now dating someone who has your allergy and I have seen her drink beer but I am sure she pays for it afterward. I think she does it just to fit in because one of our main hangouts is a brewery.

                • Paula Says:

                  Yes, there are now gluten free beers, but I don’t like beer. And having an allergy instead of celiac means I can eat wheat and suffer the consequences, but I usually regret it.

          • Charlie Says:

            “It’s not about feeling entitled. It’s about wanting to go out with someone who doesn’t have an adding machine in his head ticking off how much he’s spending on his dates.”

            There’s a flipside to this, while he shouldn’t be running cost calculations constantly you as the “guest” should be at least somewhat aware of the cost you are asking him to pay, and not assuming something is okay without asking.

            It’s not really limited to dates, this is pretty basic politeness when you are someone’s guest, and something both men and women screw up. I think you just see guys complaining about this more in a dating context as we are usually expected (depending on age/upbringing/location) to put in the bulk of the early monetary costs.

            • Mark Says:

              I think Charlie makes a very good point.

              Someplace there is a nice medium.

              Hate to say it, but this is an initial ‘let’s see if we click’ meetup. If there is more than a little difficulty in this, then it doesn’t bode well when more critical issues are addressed. You can always find any number of reasons not to meet someone, but there is only one reason why you want to meet them.

              So try to put things into perspective and enjoy things.

            • Dimplz Says:

              Since we started dating over a year ago, my boyfriend and I always discuss where we want to go. For the most part, we go wherever I want because he almost always defers to me, but I also don’t pick expensive places. In fact, the times when he chooses, it’s always a pricier place. Yesterday, we ate at Chick-Fil-A because of me. It was right there and we had to go back to the office to work so I didn’t want to waste time.

              He always insists on paying, stuffs the money in my purse or shirt if I try to pay, even if it’s for coffee. He’s a generous person in general, and to this day, I always say thanks, even though he’s always replied with, “You don’t have to thank me,” or “My pleasure.” There have been some rare occasions where he’s let me pay. He definitely makes more than I do and has more money because he lives with his parents, but that doesn’t mean I expect him to shell out more. We were at the store yesterday and he offered to buy me a featherbed. I say no to these things because I can afford it. You just have to find that person that suits you and appreciates what you can offer, and you also have to appreciate what they offer.

          • chuckrock Says:

            Wow, Moxy, you are so far off base I don’t know where to start. I will cosign everything WO7 has said. Further, I think you really need to rethink your attitude because out of all the things I have read from you since I started following this blog, this attitude stands out as the most drastic reason as to why you are likely single.

            A wine bar on a first date? crazy talk. There are plenty of pubs or restaurants with a bar which are better atmospheres for a date and about half the price. How about a $5 beer? You can find that throughout the city.

            Thank God I decided to move out of the city. Here in the ‘burbs of Suffolk County, drinks and appetizers at Chili’s or Applebees for a first date costs me around $40 bucks and is just as good of a place to meet someone. I find that women like when i suggest a place like that because they know what to expect, what type of people will be around and they are comfortable meeting up with someone they don’t know yet. and heck if it is going well it can move into dinner with ease.

          • DowntownAngel Says:

            I would also add to that, that if these women usually go to such places and find guys there, and WO7 considers it being over his budget, he’s clearly dating out of his league

            • Susan Says:

              Some of you who think it’s not necessary for a man to have a plan also have strong opinions about where you want to go. So no wonder you need to have a say in it. Me? I prefer the guy choose the location, but then it’s up to me to enjoy myself and tell him how much I love it. And I really do, no matter where we are, because what matters most to me is that he went out on a limb, made the plan, and offered me something. Samosas, paella, pub beer, hot dog, slice of pizza, flamenco show, baseball game, bowling — I could care less what it is. Frankly, the more whatever we do shows his passion and desire to share it with me, the better.

            • WO7 Says:

              Ha, I love when people try to pull out this bullshit “out of your league” low blow. 9 times out of 10 the person saying it is some ugly fat cow.

              Now let’s see if she actually responds to the facts instead of just spouting babble.

              I didn’t say I couldn’t afford to spend $15 a drink.

              I said that the reason these places cost so much, is that they’re meant to provide a way for the beautiful and/or wealthy to meet each other. Why the hell does either me or my date need to pay a premium to meet the beautiful and/or wealthy when we’re there to get to know each other?

              And I’m not some chump who needs to try to impress my dates with how much money I can spend on them. A woman has to prove SHE has worth to ME before I am going to spend significant money on her.

              Money spent on dates 1 or 2 without there ever being a date 3 is throw away money. Anyone who chooses to throw away more money then they have to is a moron, and probably rents in Manhattan with no savings or retirement to their name.

              • Paula Says:

                ugly fat cow

                Stop maligning cows. Or fat people (not all are ugly). Or ugly people (not all are fat). Or people who like wine. Or renters in Manhattan. Or anyone who disagrees with you.

                My dating experience is completely different than yours. That doesn’t make either of our experiences any more or less valid. I’ve gone out with plenty of guys your age or younger (in fact, more of them than ones my own age), and they’ve let me pay. It hasn’t to my knowledge ever impacted whether we go out again.

                Dating is a lot like gambling. Go into it approaching it as the cost of an evening’s entertainment, know in advance how much you’re willing to spend/lose, don’t go over that amount, and be happy when you win, knowing that it’s more likely you’ll lose. It’s much easier to live with the outcome either way when you approach it with that mindset.

                • WO7 Says:

                  Paula, my response was directed at DowntownAngel, who was trying to diss me by saying I was dating out of my league.

                  What the heck are you chiming in for? The post had nothing to do with you.

                  I do go into dating in a similar mindset to gambling. I try to choose a place that costs an amount I have no qualms tossing away, and I try to avoid going to places that are expensive enough that I’m annoyed if I tossed the money away on a dead end date.

                  I’m not saying your experience is invalid.

                  But the bottom line is, the most common scenario in the US, is for men to pay for 90% of the 1st and 2nd dates they go on. This is abundantly clear from every guy that has ever chimed in on this topic in Moxie’s blog. Your personal experience of paying more than you don’t doesn’t change what’s most common.

                  • Paula Says:

                    Um, because when you post here, your comments are fair game for anyone to respond to. Because you’ve been rude to Downtown Angel, Moxie, and everyone who disagrees with you. And because as someone who has struggled with weight issues over the years, I find it offensive for you to equate fat with ugly and use it as a way to insult women.

                    • WO7 Says:

                      I didn’t equate fat with ugly, you’re projecting.

                      I said they were fat AND ugly. Two undesirable traits to me. I was demonstrating how a person who threw out the “out of your league” insult was usually the type of person in a lower league by both looks AND weight.

                      I work hard to keep myself fit (eating right and exercise), and I have little sympathy for people who don’t make the sacrifices they need to make to take their health seriously. I love sweets, fatty foods, and big portions as much as anyone. But I exercise control over my cravings.

                      I’m sure I’ll get thumbs down for saying all this, but the number of people who actually have a genetic/biological reason keeping them from being fit is a minority. Too many people use it as a scape goat for their own lack of willpower.

                      And if you read critically, you’d see that I only become rude when someone is rude to me first. Perhaps I just make my rudeness a little more obvious. Oh well. I am not the sneaky type of person who tries to be cutting without it being obvious to everyone. If I want to cut you down, I make it clear.

                      Moxie often “disagrees” in a very attacking way. I don’t even know how you can use DowntownAngel as an example, because she was incredibly rude. That’s not “disagreeing” with me.

                    • Paula Says:

                      >>I work hard to keep myself fit (eating right and exercise), and I have little sympathy for people who don’t make the sacrifices they need to make to take their health seriously. I love sweets, fatty foods, and big portions as much as anyone. But I exercise control over my cravings.

                      I’m sure I’ll get thumbs down for saying all this, but the number of people who actually have a genetic/biological reason keeping them from being fit is a minority. Too many people use it as a scape goat for their own lack of willpower.

                      This is a whole ‘nother post, and one that’s not relevant to this blog. But read Gary Taubes (Good Calories Bad Calories, or Why We Get Fat) and get back to me. Because it’s not about “sacrifice,” or “willpower,” or “controlling cravings,” or even “exercise.” As much as everyone would like to make being fat a moral failing — I guess so they can make themselves feel better — both the oldest and the newest research on obesity are remarkably consistent that it’s really not about that at all.

                    • WO7 Says:

                      Paula, I read the summaries of the books you mentioned on I don’t see how it contradicts anything I am saying.

                      From the summary: “result from increased consumption of refined carbohydrates: sugar, white flour and white rice.”

                      Basically, the books are simply stating what they define as healthy eating, and that they believe it goes against popular knowledge.

                      This isn’t new news. The refined carbohydrate argument has been popular knowledge since the Atkins diet became popular. Awhile ago.

                      There are lots of diets out there. Some are more efficient then others, but they almost all work.

                      And the bottom line…burn more calories than you eat, and you will lose fat. Your books do not disprove that.

                    • Paula Says:

                      Actually, “burn more calories than you eat, and you will lose fat” is the single biggest fallacy disproved by Gary Taubes’ two books, so the summaries (or your comprehension of them) must have been inadequate. And the chapter in WWGF about “The Elusive Benefits of Exercise” pretty much contradicts what you were saying too. Read the books. Seriously.

                      As Taubes succinctly puts it:

                      Of all the reasons to question the idea that overeating causes obesity, the most obvious has always been the fact that undereating doesn’t cure it.

              • DrivingMeNutes Says:

                “Money spent on dates 1 or 2 without there ever being a date 3 is throw away money.”

                Why does that keep happening to you? As usual, I’m scratching my head. Women appreciate when you spend money on them. Ok, so? Rather than standing on principles, why don’t you try sucking it up and seeing if you’re more successful? What are you saving for anyway? The whole point of being rich is to get girls. Seems like you’re giving up the girls to save some money for some future day when you will be too old to enjoy it.

                I honestly can’t figure out why you guys seem to have so much trouble. I must be Brad Fucking Pitt.

                • WO7 Says:

                  Why does what keep happening to me? Having more experiences meeting woman online and not making it past date 3 then experiences where we make it to date 4 and beyond?

                  If you’re trying to convince me that when you date online, you have more than 50% of the women you meet lasting to the 4th date, then I call bullshit. That or you’re shooting way below your league to play it safe.

                  What am I saving for? The whole point of money is to get girls?

                  How sad is that mentality…

                  I have no problem meeting women.

                  Just because I’m on here bitching about the things about the dating game I don’t like, doesn’t mean I’m not having my fair share of women.

                  • DrivingMeNutes Says:

                    “That or you’re shooting way below your league to play it safe.”

                    This may be true. If I’m attracted to them though I don’t care what other people think. I’m just not obsesssed with physicality or money. Come to think of it, I’m not obsessed with anything. It’s called balance. I guess I am lucky that way.

                    I have no idea how you come off in real life. I will tell you, though, that every guy doesn’t thnk the way you do – about money or otherwise. Trust me, we’re not faking it. We don’t mind paying for women or making an effort becuase it results in success. I don’t think you even realize how different you are from many other guys in that respect (though, I don’t doubt there are many many guys lke you out there having come from the outerboroughs myself.) The things you and Chuckruck cite as “common sense” are foreign to me.

                    • WO7 Says:

                      Firstly, league is a concept unique to each individual. Someone in “your league” is someone on the same level as you. That level doesn’t have to be described by society, nor does it have to be defined by attractiveness and money. I’ve had women out of my league who were less attractive and made less money than me. They were out of my league because I wanted them more then they wanted me. Dating someone in your league means dating someone where you each want each other equally, and no one is putting the other on a pedestal without getting the same in return.

                      I agree with you that paying for a woman and making an effort results in success. And I employe both methods. However, I have found that taking women to bars that are $15 a drink on date one and two, has not been more successful for me then taking then to a nice bar that charges $8 a drink. The few times it has been, were with the type of women I don’t want to end up with anyway.

                      I am personally fine with paying for women on dates in the beginning. It feels good to give people a gift. It also makes you feel like a “man”, because that’s how society has conditioned me to feel.

                      However, I have to take reality into consideration. I have x amount of money to spend in a year. How much of that money should I be “gifting” to women I may see 1-3 times in my entire life? Every $ I spend there is a $ less I can spend on my family, true friends, and myself.

                      If you’re telling me that I’m not in the majority when I say that I have to pay attention to what disposable income I spend on dates, then I will say I don’t believe you. Other people may have more money than me, or they may put less into savings, but there is always a limit, and you either pay attention to it or go into bankruptcy.

                      Perhaps you make a lot more money than me. Perhaps for you, it’s difficult to find a restaurant or bar that puts a strain on your monthly income if you go there 8 times a month or more. But I bet there are restaurants that could. Would you be so nonchalant if women were suggesting those restaurants to you every time? Would you not try to take the reigns and make sure you were able to spend what you felt comfortable with spending? Especially if you knew that spending more money wasn’t going to result in more success?

                • chuckrock Says:

                  The whole point of being rich is to get girls.

                  It is? Wow, I guess I am wrong with thinking that the whole point of being rich was to live a more comfortable life and to have less money stresses in it. I would never even want a girl that I ‘got’ because i was rich (which I am not, btw). What a sad attitude you have.

  9. Paula Says:

    It seems like there are two different issues going on here.

    One is whether it’s rude or expressing ambivalence for the guy to leave it to her to plan the first date. But, as many women have said here, they prefer to have some say in where they’re going or like to plan it together. So there’s not a universal preference to have the guy take the lead on this, and as Moxie said, there are several reasons why he may be reluctant to, all of which should accord the guy the benefit of the doubt.

    The other thing which seems to be going on, is whether the guy’s personality is too passive for the OP. Some people equate manliness or base their attraction on a guy having a fairly confident and forceful personality, a take-charge kind of attitude, or subscribe to more traditional gender roles about the guy taking the lead on certain things. If that’s what’s going on here, that the guy wanting her to make plans is typical of his personality, then it may not work for her. That is, the guy asking her what she thinks doesn’t mean he’s unmanly, but a guy who always defers to her or wants her to initiate things may not fit her personal views of masculinity or keep her attraction stoked. That’s something you figure out on a date or two, rather than inferring it from one thing like “where should we go?”

    It’s a lot like the previous post: if he’s the “sweet” guy when she needs the “kinky” guy, or he’s a sub when she needs a dom, it may not work, but otherwise, don’t make too much out of a dating convention that may not be the same for everyone.

  10. Susan Says:

    I don’t care how much money he spends or how elaborate a plan he comes up with, I just want a guy to step it up and offer me *something* when he asks me out. “Would you like to take a walk in Central Park?” followed by a hot dog off a cart is a million times better than, “Why don’t you pick a place and send me the address.”

  11. D Nice Says:

    This is a hard one, because I can understand both sides of the debate. A man that makes it his mission to plan out the first date could be seen as controlling and archaic. A man with no plan for the first date could be seen as uninterested and flaky.
    I had a similar situation a couple of weeks ago. The lack of ideas for a date came up shortly after an event I’d already planned to attend(and invited him to) for the weekend fell through due to work. He was “:-(” that I couldn’t make it, even though it hadn’t been his idea to begin with! After several moments of conversation/frustration, I realized I simply wasn’t interested in him and this was just another reason not to see him.
    Maybe the woman who received the tweet is really not that interested in him to begin with and this is an excuse to write him off?

  12. L Says:

    In reality, this is so so unimportant. If the two people turn out to like each other and complement each other, what’s the difference? Why are so many women so focused on the man doing the planning for a first date? Isn’t a couple usually a unit, and eventually doesn’t the couple end up planning things as a couple?

    Still, I will always come up with some kind of plan, even if it’s only a suggestion. I’m just saying that I don’t understand why women are so focused on this as a potential dealbreaker. Women want to be equal, but they are not willing to help to plan a date. I see this as a societal issue where it is yet another example of something superficial that people use to measure someone’s worth. The “Sex in the City Mentality”, I call it. I guess I accept it, I just don’t understand it. So many more important things that factor in between two people.

    By the way, another legitimate reason for the man not having a plan? He is not from the neighborhood and is unfamiliar with the suitable bars/restaurants in the area. For example, I will often research it on the web and find a place or two, but it’s difficult to know whether the place is too noisy, or whether the woman would prefer not to go there because she might bump into someone that she doesn’t want to, or any number of other reasons.

    • DUVALIA Says:

      I’m sorry but a frist date doesn’t constitute a couple…it’s two people attempting to get to know one another and first impressions do go a long way regardless of all the nonsense that people say…also, since you’re getting to know someone and you’re not certain then you run it by that person prior to the date and not on the actual date….

      • WO7 Says:

        She didn’t say it constituted a couple. She said that since the ultimate goal is to become a couple, and a couple would plan things together, then why not just cut to the chase and do it the couple way from the beginning.

        My question for you, is why is the first impression all on the guy? Where in this is the woman trying to make a good first impression?

        Or are you just so self entitled that you believe a man has to jump through all these hoops to make a good “first impression”. While the woman sits back and decides if he’s good enough for her or not?

        • L Says:

          Exactly, WO7! That was exactly my point. Why is this (which is in reality a silly reason)being used to judge a guy? I never said that a first date meant that they were a couple already. And DUVALIA still hasn’t given me a good reason to put such a heavy emphasis on having the guy completely plan out the first date … to the point where it is a dealbreaker if he doesn’t. First impression of what? That because he didn’t completely plan a first date that he’s completely helpless as a man or as a planner? Just because our society places so much emphasis on this “entitlement”? You know what, the truly down to earth women won’t care. They’ll go out with him, and give him a fair shot. If he’s truly helpless in planning in general, the woman will find out soon enough, believe me. But to pass judgement just based on a first date … is a shame.

          • WO7 Says:

            Unfortunately, a lot of women put too much pressure on things that don’t matter. I am sure DUVALIA is a prime offender.

            It’s their loss. They’re the ones who are going to end up unhappy. They won’t know until it’s too late that the things that matter towards having a happy life with a partner are different then the things that make a man look good on paper.

  13. j Says:

    I was in my 30’s when I learned that us guys are expected to plan the date. I’m not stupid, no one told me.

    Found out the hard way when a lady I liked lost her grip over that.

    • D Says:

      Ditto. Women start talking with each other about the way dating & relationships should work in, oh, about 5th grade. When do guys talk to each other about it? After the first divorce.

  14. DUVALIA Says:

    I do believe that if a man wants to ask me out on a date, he should definitely plan it. If he doesn’t have time then don’t ask or simply be honest and say I’d like to get to know you but I’m afraid I’m not very good at planning dates. This gives me an option of whether I want to date him or not, and that would depend on how much I like him. However, asking me out and not having a plan that’s a huge turn off, after all I’m busy too, and I’m making time for you, so the least you can do is take some time and plan something.

    You see with women it’s not where you go, but that a man takes time out to plan something, based on what he thinks you might like, and if you fail, oh well, relationships involve a lot of risk and you cannot play the game if you’re always fearful.

    Also, men are always looking for the price, to engage in sex, if not on that night, but on another, so why should we make it so easy for them ans say, okay, you didn’t plan anything, but you want to take me out, and have sex with you,just because you’re a man and you’re great.

    I think that’s the problem now a day, we make it so easy for them, they don’t feel as though they have to work for anything, especially something so simple as planning a date.

    I mean how hard is it…why don’t they ask us what we like, take mental notes, for future reference, especially if they want to date you, and eventually sleep with you.

    • WO7 Says:

      How many times do we hear women on this forum use that excuse? I can’t count them all!

      “It’s the man asking me out on the date.”

      Of course it’s the man asking you out on a date. How many men do you ask out on dates? Yes, I’m sure you’ve asked a man or two out in your life. This is completely dwarfed by the number of men who have asked you out.

      Men asking women out is a leftover remnant of the “old ways” that has not yet died a proper death. Women have conveniently gotten rid of all the undesirable remnants through the feminist movement, but are hoping to hold onto all the nice ones. Men paying for dates, men asking them, men holding the door for them and doing other “chivalrous” things. Eventually things will even out, and dating, like other things, will become equal between women and men.

      • DowntownAngel Says:

        Yeah and when this happens women will grow penises, men will develop vaginas and we will all have exactly same level of testosterone. This has to be each doormat guy dream. I hear one can change his gender these days – if you’re unhappy with your gender role, why not do it and you’ll be asked out all the time then (well, may be).

        • WO7 Says:

          Gender role?

          Listen up people, DowntownAngel, leader and spokesperson for the feminist movement.

          The gender role has changed a lot in my brief lifetime, and even more so in the last 100 years.

          So which point in time is your favorite? Would you like to go back to the times when a woman’s ROLE was in the house cleaning my shit for me and cooking my dinner?

          Do you want to do my dishes DowntownAngel? How about you wash my dirty underwear? I’m down with that. Come over and I can put together a whole list of chores for you to do.

          Or perhaps you one of those spoiled little princesses brats who are happy that we got rid of a lot of the shit that was unfair to women, but also want to keep all of the shit that was unfair to men?

          • DowntownAngel Says:

            Women don’t do dishes, cleaning ladies do. So no, i don’t want to do you dishes or even my dishes for that matter. Household chorus is not about gender role as much as it is about one’s social status and income.

            • chuckrock Says:

              You sound like a snob. A big one.

            • WO7 Says:

              Ha, you have to be trolling. No one actually thinks this shit.

              • DowntownAngel Says:

                Trolling? How many people you know (in your social circle) who don’t have cleaning ladies in NYC? Sure, nobody really thinks that way… Your dishes example is a futile attempt to trivialize the issue that’s being discussed, so may be this is you who’s trolling

                • chuckrock Says:

                  I do not know one person who lives in NYC (or even that lives more specifically in Manhattan) who has a cleaning lady – except for my grandmother…and that is because she needs a walker to get around. (and i was born and raised in NYC – so i know lots of people there) is that enough people? Like i said, you sound like a snob.

                  • DowntownAngel Says:

                    Fine by me – as I said it is a matter of income and social status, sorry. No one I know scrubs their own toilet. My advice to you and WO7 then would be to stick to their league. Taking women accostomed to $15 cocktails to $7 happy hour places is a sure way to stay single. Pick a simple gal from Queens who’d enjoy such treatment and leave us, Manhattan snobs, to hunt for our type of guys.

                    • chuckrock Says:

                      Trust me, there is no way under any circumstances that I would be attracted to a snob like you come off as. You wouldn’t be good enough for me since being materialistic is a negative trait. It is you that are not in my league, not vice versa. When you grow up and learn that the things you are looking for will not lead to happiness and come back to planet earth…..then you will see the error of your ways.

                    • Vox Says:

                      I sure hope you aren’t over 40.

                    • WO7 Says:

                      Poor DowntownAngel. You have lived such a sheltered life. Sad that your parents were unable to provide you with a solid upbringing that includes an appreciation and respect for what money can buy you. Instead, all they provided you with was a disdain for people who don’t have as much money as you.

                      The most impressive people in the world are the ones who came up from humble beginnings to become wealthy through industriousness. Every single one of them has scrubbed their own toilet in their life, and although they may pay for it now, they wouldn’t bat an eye at cleaning it themselves if the cleaning person was unavailable.

                      No one respects people who inherited or married into wealth, and my guess is that’s your source.

                      The best part is, you’ll be regretting that maid once your rich and sophisticated husband starts fucking her on your bed. All because your attitude is unattractive and he finally realized he never loved you.

                    • Dimplz Says:

                      This exchange is hilarious.

      • Susan Says:

        Equal doesn’t mean the same. Men and woman are wired differently in their attitudes towards dating and will never approach it the same way, which has has nothing at all to do with feminism or outdated gender roles. Honestly, how many times have you really been into a woman who took the lead — called you first, asked you out, paid, etc.?

        • chuckrock Says:

          I would be very into that woman. Unfortunately, she doesn’t exist.

          • Susan Says:

            No, I’ve been that woman, and watched the guy lose interest really fast.

            • chuckrock Says:

              lose interest or never had interest? no matter what she does, if i am not interested – i’m not interested. BUT if one that i am interested in but perhaps too shy or unsure of making a move, doing that would definitely be a positive.

              • Susan Says:

                Well that points to a difference between how men and women date, which is exactly my point. If I’m not interested in a guy, I’m not going on a date with him. But I’ve found that if a man finds me reasonably attractive and I pursue him, he’ll go out with me, possibly sleep with me, sometimes more than once, but if he’s not interested, he’s just not interested. That’s why I prefer to let the guy do the asking, etc.

                • chuckrock Says:

                  I’m not sure how you got that from my post. If i am not interested – i am going to say no to a date….not go out and try and sleep with her.

                  The only reason why you prefer to let the guy do the asking, is because it is easier for you. Anything else you might say about it is an excuse.

                  • Susan Says:

                    I didn’t get that from your post, just from my experiences with men I’ve pursued. It’s actually easier for me to do the asking because that’s how I handle every other aspect of my life, and it’s been a struggle for me not to. But as I’ve said, it just doesn’t work out well for me — or for any of my female dating friends — to ask a guy out.

                  • Paula Says:

                    >>>If i am not interested – i am going to say no to a date….not go out and try and sleep with her.

                    chuckrock, you don’t speak for all mankind when you say this. Not even close. There are plenty of guys who are not interested who will go on dates thinking if they show a minimal level of interest, they might get laid. And it works often enough that it’s probably worth their investment of $50-$100 to pump and dump.

                    I’d prefer to let the guy do the asking because I know my age and body type don’t appeal to everyone, and I don’t want to waste time with someone who isn’t attracted to me. Even in what I would consider “my league,” not everyone is going to have sufficient initial attraction to want to get to know me further, which I recognize.

                    Guys are more likely to view attraction as an on/off switch, whereas I think more women are willing to take the chance that the attraction will build from aspects of a guy’s personality, such as his intelligence and wit.

                    • Susan Says:

                      Yeah Paula, I’ve been out with plenty of those guys, as have my friends, as I suspect so have you.

                    • chuckrock Says:

                      why would i want to get laid b someone i’m not interested in?

                      also, you are right. I’ve never known attraction to happen later in the game. I am either attracted or i am not. Now someone who i am attracted to can make that attraction grow with her personality and intelligence..but no amount of smarts and such will make a woman i am not attracted to become attractive to me.

                    • Susan Says:

                      The nuance here is in the word “interest.” I’m using it to mean physical attraction plus desire to date to get to know the other person. Are you saying you’ve never had sex with a woman you were attracted to but had no intention of dating to see if a relationship could develop? If such a woman approached you first and asked you out, wouldn’t you go with it for the possibility of sex? I don’t think there’s a single woman anywhere who hasn’t experienced that.

                    • Paula Says:

                      >>>why would i want to get laid b someone i’m not interested in?

                      That’s the eternal question of mankind, which many of your brethren have answered with: “because I just wanna get laid.”

                      >>>no amount of smarts and such will make a woman i am not attracted to become attractive to me

                      That’s where you and I are different. I actually dated someone for several years who I was not attracted to at first (it was a post-divorce rebound thing that started as a FWB situation, so I figured it just didn’t matter, especially because my strong attraction to my husband grew to be so painful when we stopped sleeping together). As I got to know him, and especially due to our high sexual compatibility, the attraction grew.

                      I suspect I’m not alone among women, who perhaps especially after being burned by excessive attraction without substance, choose someone safe who is a nice stable guy.

                    • chuckrock Says:

                      Are you saying you’ve never had sex with a woman you were attracted to but had no intention of dating to see if a relationship could develop? If such a woman approached you first and asked you out, wouldn’t you go with it for the possibility of sex?

                      These are very different questions. The first is yes, I have. I am using the word interested in to mean attracted to or someone whom I desire. I have slept with women who I find attractive but would never date, but all of those women felt the same about me. With all of them, it was something totally just physical….whether it was a fwb or just a friends with whom we had a lot of sexual tension and decided to explore a couple of times. None of them had any expectation of a relationship with me. (in full disclosure, one of them did develop feelings for me so I ended the physical thing)

                      The second question, is a clear no. I would never date someone solely to sleep with them. If she was asking me out on a date I would let her down gently and not go. I am not in the game of leading women on. If I was attracted to her and I was unsure asto whether I would be interested in a relationship then I would date her and test it out…which is basically what I do with any woman I go on a date with. But as soon as I realized that she wasn’t for me, I would end it.

                    • Susan Says:

                      Interesting….thanks for your honesty.

        • Charlie Says:

          She didn’t ask me out, but I briefly dated a woman who wanted to pay her share and took control of date #3 (which turned out awesome, by the way). Unfortunately it didn’t work out in a rather excessively aggravating way, but for those 3 dates it was AWESOME. In a heartbeat I’d date a gal like that again, minus the negative things she did at the end of course.

          • Charlie Says:

            Whoops, left out an important bit. Her contributing and later taking the lead for a date took a lot of the pressure off of me. Yes, it helped that I found her to be really attractive and fun, but I can’t understate how much it helped me open up to the possibilities once that extra bit of pressure was off on even date 1.

            • Angeline Says:

              Without getting into your personal business, what was it that didn’t work out? Did take charge turn into too aggressive and controlling? Or was it unrelated stuff?

              I think a lot of strong women are very hesitant to actually show that, even if they aren’t expecting a princessy first date slay the dragons extravaganza from the guy. It can be daunting to walk the line of being more aggressive than is traditional, and at the same time be braced for the guy to worry that ‘strong woman’ equals ‘Hear me roar’ down the road. We’re bucking a huge load of training and culture, maybe even more crap than there is tied to the decision of when to have sex. There are so many absolutely rigid, absolutely contradictory rules out there. Women worry about appearing “too” aggressive, without really having any idea what is “too” aggressive. Every man and woman is different, and in my experience, even from this relationship to the next one might be very different regarding take charge vs. going along with it.

              Of course, women could handle it better too, and realize there’s a difference between “strong” and “bitchy”.

              • Charlie Says:

                Unfortunately, I don’t really know. My best guess is I was a rebound attempt and she never really had any real romantic interest in me, basically she dated me because I was there. She did a terrible job of “cutting me loose” and things drug out for several months as a result. A lot of half truths and outright B.S. were said by her so I just really don’t know. It’s a shame as those ~5 months or so I wasted could have been really fun. But that was my fault for not cutting her out of my life sooner.

              • Susan Says:

                Yes absolutely. It really does depend a lot on the two people involved. I think most women struggle with maintaining that balance, especially when meeting someone new. After all, one man’s confident woman is another man’s bitch; one woman’s man with a pair is another’s control freak.

                Charlie, really appreciate hearing your perspective. I think it’s a lot easier to begin to test the waters of each other’s sensitivities around this stuff after a date or two. But I think for the initial contact/invitation, and on the first date, it works out better if the man takes the lead. At least that’s what I’ve experienced.

    • Joe Says:

      Wow, this sounds like your a prostitute setting a price.

  15. nathan Says:

    “I think that’s the problem now a day, we make it so easy for them, they don’t feel as though they have to work for anything, especially something so simple as planning a date.” Lmao. That’s sure as hell not been my experience much of the time.

  16. Susan Says:

    It’s interesting how polarizing this topic seems to be. When things are taken to extremes, they tend to become absurd. I don’t want a guy to “take charge” and make all the decisions without considering my likes and dislikes any more than one who doesn’t even offer a suggestion. You’re strangers on a first date, so it’s just as much a risk for either person to throw out an idea. But it’s also an opportunity to make a fantastic first impression. Two of my most memorable first dates were at 1) a hole-in-the-wall Indian restaurant, and 2) a flamenco show. I learned a lot about the guys’ likes and interests, and I made sure to let each know how thrilled I was with their surprising choice.

    Contrast that to a more recent example when the guy said, “I’m free on Thursday too, whatever you want to do is fine with me.” A giant gaping “whatever.” So I was faced with the question that a couple of guys here have mentioned re: making an assumption about how much he wanted to spend. I mean, he didn’t even invite me out to dinner and then asked me to pick a place, he just left it wide open. It was awkward and left me feeling, well, whatever about him.

    • Susan Says:

      So in the interest of full disclosure, and because I’m really interested to hear guys’ reaction to this, I ended up planning a walk on the Highline Park followed by reservations at a nearby restaurant that I had never been to, but my research showed to be a mid-priced place nice enough to be date-quality, but quiet enough to talk. The reservations were in my name, but when we walked in he made a point of asking for the table. And when the check came, I told him that since I planned the whole thing and chose the restaurant, it was my date, my treat and paid the bill. He was really really uncomfortable about it, which of course made me really uncomfortable. In the end he went along with it, but said don’t ever do that again.

      • chuckrock Says:

        This is an interesting scenario. I don’t think what you did would have made me uncomfortable, if you were sweet and flirty about how you said ‘it was my date, my treat’ If you said it all bitchilike(which i am sure you didn’t) then maybe.

        I think this guy is more insecure than the average guy, and probably not someone you’d get along with in the long run (even by the small glimpse into your personality on this thread I can tell you need a pretty secure guy). Personally I find take charge kind of women attractive, but not everyone does.

        I wouldn’t take this experience as a standard as to how all guys will react.

        • Susan Says:

          Very insightful, chuckrock. It was his insecurity and rush to bring things to comfort and familiarity so quickly that made me break it off with him after our 6th date.

          Yes I was sweet and flirty that night, but the truth is I was a little annoyed at his “whatever” approach to the date. If he had instead been sweet and flirty — and maybe challenged me a bit — by suggesting I plan our next date to see what I come up with, I would have jumped to it enthusiastically. I love to introduce a guy to something new and interesting in my world, which is why I picked a walk on the Highline (he had never been there). And that’s how I like a guy to be with me when inviting me out. But in this case, it wasn’t so much that I was trying to show him a good time (I don’t mean *that* way!), I was a little confused about his intention. It turned out to be a nice date, and I didn’t at all mind paying the $95 check, but it was awkward because neither of us really knew what was expected.

          • chuckrock Says:

            The more I date the more I realize the importance of shared planning. It’s not so much of a we should plan each thing together as a each should give suggestions. Not only do I learn about what she likes to do that way (and vice versa) but it also takes the pressure off me of trying to continuously come up with new and original ideas.

            With this current girl, the first sign to me that she may be someone special came in the planning of date #2. I had suggested Dave and Buster’s because it is somewhat close to where she lives and is a fun type of place. She suggested we go to a ducks game so we could be outside. She didn’t reject my suggestion but made one of her own (which i totally agreed was a better one). I loved how willing she was to voice her opinion and suggest something like that.

            I planned date #3 and it totally back fired on me. One of the worst planned dates ever. But we still had fun together and she totally rolled with the punches…another very attractive quality in her.

            6 dates and I have yet to spend more than sixty bucks on any one of them.

            • Susan Says:

              Nice. My flamenco date guy first suggested a Broadway show, and I was sweet and flirty with my reply that that perhaps we could do something a bit more interactive, where we could talk to each other. (I’m not really into Broadway shows, plus it seemed like a big financial commitment for a first date.) So he thought a moment and instead suggested the Spanish restaurant and flamenco show, which I told him was absolutely brilliant and really exciting to me.

              Once in a while, a bit down the road (not on a first or second date), I would love a guy to tell me he’s picking me up at 8 and I should wear a little black dress, and just surprise me. But for the most part, I agree that a suggestion “How do you feel about doing xyz?” and a reply, “Sounds great!” or “Let’s try abc instead” is the best way to go.

              Personally I really don’t care at all what I eat or drink or do on an early date. I’m much more turned on by a guy who invites me to share something he really enjoys than how much he spends or how fancy and elaborate a plan he makes. But clearly we’re all different!

      • WO7 Says:

        I probably would feel uncomfortable allowing a woman I just met to pay for the date. This has more to do with the fact that I always like to feel like I’m pulling my own weight, and never like to feel like I’m a “moocher”. So it would just make me feel like I was being a bum. Fair is each pays half. Or if you know each other better, and will continue to see one another, then you can take turns paying. And once things are really serious, then I don’t care what my gf pays for, but I do try to maintain the balance of giving as much as I’m getting (taking differences of income into consideration as well).

        • Susan Says:

          Thanks for that perspective, WO7. To be clear, this was our 3rd date, not first. He paid for drinks and apps at our first meeting, and for a movie and inexpensive dinner the second time; I paid the tip both times. The dinner and movie date fell flat — couldn’t talk during the movie, and afterwards we ended up at a diner with absolutely zero date-quality ambience (I didn’t care about the food), plus his nervousness brought out a certain “buddy behavior” in him. I knew our next date had to be more interactive and romantic or it was going to be our last. So when he left the whole thing up to me, I picked a restaurant that I knew was a step up from the last place. Because of that, it just didn’t feel right to do the “who’s paying the check?” dance. Had we split it, it would have reverted back to the buddy thing, which would have killed the night. Honestly I totally sweated it the next day thinking I might have screwed it up, but I felt I didn’t have any other choice than to take the risk of playing the sexy woman in charge. Unfortunately he didn’t think it was so sexy! Maybe I should have been out with chuckrock instead.

          • chuckrock Says:


            • Susan Says:

              Too bad you already have a gf — I mean “girl you’re dating”…

              • chuckrock Says:

                Ah, see therein lies the difference between a gf and a girl i am dating. I could go out on a date with someone else without it being an issue since we aren’t exclusive….i have chosen not to recently because I like her a bunch, though. ;)

                Speaking of, i think it went exceedingly well on friday. I had a lot in common with her friends and it was a very comfortable atmosphere.

                • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                  Please cease conversations about your dates. It’s irrelevant to the main discussion.

                  • chuckrock Says:

                    Yeah, because god forbid that your readers get to know each other a bit. Half the reason to read your blog is because of the interaction between the commenters. But it’s your show……….

                    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

                      I agree. I for one would like to hear more about Chuckrock’s dates at IHOP.

                      Speaking of which….. “I had a lot in common with her friends and it was a very comfortable atmosphere.”

                      Am I having deja vu, or didn’t we already go through how you going out with a girl’s friends is not such a great idea.

                      P.S. I had a delicious margarita last night at this place by my apartment Then got some sushi. . Just thought you’d like to know.

                    • chuckrock Says:

                      Last time it was date 3 and this was the 7th time we were hanging out. At some point you have to start transitioning from dating into being a couple. This was the first of said events for us.

                      Oh, I’ve been wanting to hi one of the local margarita nights for a while. I’M jealous :)

                  • Susan Says:

                    Frankly I’m much more interested in reading about the dating behavior of contributors here than the insulting jabs that have gone back and forth. IHOP? Cleaning ladies? Ugly fat cows? Jesus. Sorry I thought that was the whole purpose of a dating blog.

  17. Aldonza Says:

    I agree with Mox. Seems like a pretty petty thing to shelf a guy over. If a guy is asking me for my advice, I’ll assume that he’s interested in my preferences and I’ll give it. However, I usually take the opportunity to *downgrade* the “big dinner date” expectations. I’ll recommend coffee, ice cream, or an inexpensive bar with decent appetizers. I go with the assumption that the idea is to meet and chat, not make a big production.

    However, I think you can learn by watching how men respond to that. If he goes along with whatever I suggest, I’ll stay aware of how passive he is in general or if he seems like he just doesn’t care. If he offers back something along the same lines but with a twist, I know he’s trying to engage at my level. And if he rejects my “downgrade” in favor of someplace nicer, it usually means he’s interested.

    • nathan Says:

      I think this sounds fair. I will say, though, that after however many first dates I have been on over the years, my initial reactions to everything are pretty toned down. If a woman says “let meet for coffee or a drink,” no doubt I’m going to go along with that. Because odds are the last three times, I was the one to do the asking, place choosing, etc. And in any case, who knows where the date is going to go anyway.

      This is one of the challenges of modern dating culture. When you have the options like online dating, groups, singles events etc., you can meet and date numerous people. But as you’re experiences grow, especially with dates that go nowhere, you stop putting a lot expectations and energy into that first date.

      Now, on the one hand, letting go of all the expectations, stories you’ve made up about you’re “ideal partner,” etc. is pretty damned healthy.

      On the other hand, if you aren’t careful, you can easily appear to not care or be indifferent, even if you are actually interested in your date.

  18. D Says:

    These days I always pick the location. But in the past one of the reasons I wanted to defer is that I’ve found women tend to be pickier about food and drinks than I am. The other night I went out with a gal who spent 5 minutes grilling the waitress about what kind of stout she should order. Me? I just ordered the house red.

  19. Mike Says:

    When I ask a woman to propose something for our date I am doing that to show consideration for her tastes. I am flexible and will do pretty much anything. But I don’t assume that a woman will be as flexible as me. Maybe it was this guys tone of voice when he was requesting that the woman propose something. Possibly he was not really interested and just going through the motions hoping to get laid.

  20. Mark Says:

    Great topic. After all, if you flub the 1st date then it’s very probable that will be the last of it.

    A few different issues on this one. As a general guideline concerning the headline, it’s probably a good idea if the guy has some sort of plan in mind. It might be something very specific, or it might be more of a general idea type of thinking. Especially if he was to one to initiate contact. At least it shows initiative. At this point he can convey it wth the understanding that this is a preliminary plan and if she had something else in particular then he’d be open to suggestions. The alternative suggestion idea might be important because he might not want to seem too controlling or too rigid about things. She may agree 100% or she may make an alternative suggetion or two. In any event at least it is something to go on. Hash it out from there.

    It also might be a good idea to keep things relatively simple at first. This way neither feels especially put out, feels that they have been taken advantage of, or feels undue preassure about a 1st date get together. I think most people have a pretty good idea of meeting someone within the first few minutes if there is no real chance of this going anyplace. Keeping things simple helps reduce the awkwardness of drawing things out you just don’t feel any chemistry with. Or them with you. If things click, then you can plan something a little more involving.

    In this particular case, the guy initiated contact and then got passive by having her suggest something. By the same token, her response was a little out of line with the ‘grow a pair’ attitude. Hopefully both learned something positive from this experience.

    • Susan Says:

      Thanks for your reasoned post, Mark, and pointing out that there’s middle ground somewhere between a woman saying “grow a pair” and a guy saying “whatever.” Women know that guys like to be with cool girls who are fun and easy to be around, not too emotional, and can roll with things. And that’s how we want to be too, but it takes some effort because we’re generally not wired that way. For most of us, our “roll out of bed and come as you are” selves are just more emotional when it comes to dating, we get attached more easily, sex means more to us. So to try to balance that out, some of us hold back a bit at first to gauge a guy’s interest before we get all into him. When a guy does the asking and takes the lead in suggesting the first date plans, etc., it helps me to be more casual and fun — and isn’t that better for everyone?

      • Mark Says:

        Excellent points, Sue.

        Especially the Mars/Venus inferrence. Just to clarify, I think that I was framing the response in light of looking at some of the replies in this thread. In other words having a sense of perspective about initally meeting someone. Since most people are juggling any number of professional and personal things in their lives, my POV was that why create unnecessary drama or angst where it wasn’t really needed to begin with.

        Simple but not simplistic, and certainly not any simpleer than it ought to be. The trick is initally finding what it ought to be. Hence the middle ground between the ‘Whatever’ attitude
        and the mountain over a molehill. So if something works, go with it. If not try a different approach.

  21. chuckrock Says:

    I typically make a suggestion on where to have the first date. I will learn where she will be coming from (where she works, lives etc) and pic something fairly close by but towards my direction. If it is in an area that I don’t know well I will ask one of my friends who i think knows that area better or i will look online.

    But in the end it is only a suggestion. I will say “how about we meet at ____?” And then i see what her reaction is. Most normal women will say fine and that will be that. Sometimes, they will suggest a change and as long as the suggestion is along the same lines as what i suggestion I have no problem doing their suggestion.

    i did have one woman who turned down my well researched restaurant for apps and drinks and suggested one of the pricier restaurants in the same general location for dinner. Needless to say, I bailed on that one because she came off as high maintenance.

  22. a Says:

    I recently dated a guy who, on our first date, did a great job of asking what I was interested in doing and making a plan with me. The first date was phenomenal. After that however, he wanted me to make all the plans. If I asked if he was in the mood for anything, he’d shrug or say “whatever”. In the midst of this, he actively pursued me, regularly asked for my time – but wanted me to plan everything. I found it very frustrating. It made me sympathize with guys who probably have to deal with a similar situation regularly. After 8 or 9 dates, I was tired of feeling like I had to pull together a perfect plan. I just didn’t want to do it anymore, and I ended things. I think it’s important for both people to speak up and invite the other along for things they are interested in. Want to see a particular movie, or go to a specific restaurant? Call him her/him up and and offer an invite. It also made me re-evaluate my behavior – had I been a passive date in the past because I assumed, as a woman, I should expect him to make plans? I think when I was younger, yes. That’s not really fair to ask of anyone. None of us should be the sole ‘party planner’ in any relationship.

  23. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    So then how do you make sure you go to wine places?

    I never said I did. Nor did I say I picked the places. You inferred that because your brain is hard wired to hear whatever it is that will support your obvious bias. You’re the one who can’t leave the comments alone, as you usually do whenever the issue is living with roommates or dating in the outer boros. Nobody else is desperately trying to prove their point or be heard. You’re the one inferring things in to what is being said, and basing all your comments on those inferences.

    You’re also backpedaling faster than Lance Armstrong. Your FIRST comment in the thread.

    I don’t ever let the woman plan the first date. Simply for the reason that when given the option, women always just “happen” to pick a place that costs way more than what I was hoping to spend on a FIRST date. Sorry ladies, I’m not becoming “Mr. Generous” (or Mr. Creative) with you until we make it to date 4. Dates 1-3 are too often a complete waste of money and time in online dating.

    You put quotation marks around “happen” to imply that they INTENTIONALLY choose expensive places because they’re looking for a free meal. Couldn’t be that they just don’t do pubs. Then you go on to admit that you won’t spend X amount of money until at least the 3rd or 4th date. If dates 1-3 are “too often” a waste of time for you, maybe it’s because you either choose the wrong women or you do something to turn these women off. Oh no. We shouldn’t suggest that, right? It HAS to be that alllllll these women are just snobs.

    What happens if you and a woman are getting on and you decide drinks could turn in to dinner? Or you and she end up having 3 rounds of drinks and an appetizer at one of those places that resides on that list you’ve compiled? The whole tone of your first comment is that you’re itemizing everything consumed, drank and spent on those first few dates JUST IN CASE she’s a gold digging whore out for your money. NOBODY wants to be out with that guy. Just like no guy wants to go out with that woman who’s paying attention to how much effort a man makes before she decides to blow him.

    • trouble Says:

      This is the kind of stuff that both men and women do (carry their biases and bad experiences forward into new relationships) that cause them to remain single for a long, long time. A healthy woman, who doesn’t engage in this sort of behavior, is going to pick up on the attitudes and negativity emanating from WO7, and run.

      I’ve never chosen an expensive place for a first date. Even now, after dating my guy for 3+ years, if I want to go somewhere semi-expensive (and by semi-expensive, I mean dinners in the range of $20-25 per person), I always offer to split the check or pay it entirely. Even when I was super young, in college, I didn’t do stuff like this. It’s rude and I wasn’t raised to take advantage of people like this. I’m perfectly happy with chik-fil-a or some hole in the wall ethnic restaurant with cheap prices.

      On this board, I’ve routinely recommended to men that they take the woman for coffee, lunch, or even a walk in the park. A hike outside the city, feeding bread to ducks at a local lake, any of those things will tickle my fancy far more than an expensive meal.

      Your generalizations suggest that the problem lies with you, not with women.

      • WO7 Says:

        And included in this is your bias and false assumptions.

        That because YOU have never chosen an expensive place for a first date, others haven’t either. Do you even live in NYC? Cause this is strictly a NYC phenomenon. I have dated all over the country (I travel for work), and it doesn’t happen elsewhere.

        Perhaps people who live in Manhattan, like Moxie, don’t even think that $12-$13 a drink is expensive, as Moxie doesn’t. Perhaps they’ve been conditioned to pay this much at the places they like. So they’re clearly not “picking an expensive place”. They’re just “picking a place”.

        I am living by your “recommendation”. Except replace coffee and lunch with reasonable priced drinks (certainly a similar price to lunch). But somehow when I say it, I have an attitude and emanate negativity, and when you say it that’s not the case?

        Likelihoods do exist in this world. My ability to point some of them out does not suggest there is a problem.

        My first post was stating that I purposely pick the places for a first date. I stated a likelihood (that women don’t always take costs into consideration as much as they should considering they will likely be treated), and my solution to get around this. So where is the problem? I don’t see a problem with me or the women. I see reactions to the way the world works to get the outcome I desire.

        I find it comical when the people who disagree with me try to imply that I have some problem, that “healthy” women “run” from me, and that I have some kind of palpable attitude that can be picked up on. It’s probably best to leave your imaginary fantasies out of a debate on facts and substance.

        • chuckrock Says:

          The problem is certainly not with you on this topic. I have agreed with nearly everything you have said here. By doing things the way you are doing them you are more likely to meet a down to earth woman who will actually make a good partner, and that is what I would imagine you are looking for.

          These manhattan snobs will continue to be single as they put too much emphasis on things that don’t really matter.

        • trouble Says:


          Your words:

          I don’t ever let the woman plan the first date. Simply for the reason that when given the option, women always just “happen” to pick a place that costs way more than what I was hoping to spend on a FIRST date.

          Your generalizations led to the overall impression I received of you. There are plenty of women who don’t behave like this. If you seem to only encouter women who do, I suggest it’s probably a personal issue.

          • WO7 Says:

            How can you make this statement? How do you even know what I’m willing to spend to be able to say that women don’t behave like this?

            Do you live in or go out with people from Manhattan? If you don’t, then we’re already not going to be on the same page. I have lived in 10 states, and this phenomenon is not the same elsewhere as it is here.

            One thing you need to take into consideration, is that many women like to go out to dinner for a first date. Am I wrong in this assumption?

            Dinner + drinks at a reasonable place in Manhattan is $100. That’s assuming 2 appetizers, 2 entrees, and 2 drinks each. That is more than I want to spend on a first date. Ideally, I would LIKE to spend no more than $50 on each date until the 3rd or 4th date. If I knew every girl I met was going to stick around till date 4, then I probably would be fine with spending $100 for a first and second date. But since I know that a good portion aren’t going to make it that far, I would prefer to spend $50. And honestly, I have a few venues up my sleeve that usually run me $30 (when we each have 3 drinks), and every time the woman has complemented me on my choice. There are diamonds in the rough, and this includes places that are classy, cheap, AND in Manhattan.

            I’m getting tired of hearing the “if all you experience is x, then the common denominator must be you”. a) Unless you can point to what the common denominator is about me, then don’t bother saying it. b) There are two other blatant common denominators you’re ignoring. They are all women, and they live in or around NYC.

            Cause honestly, I have dated a very wide variety of women. For there to be some overarching thing about me that ties them all neatly together it would have to be very obscure and random.

    • WO7 Says:

      I love how my continued responses is me “unable to leave the comments” and “desperately trying to prove my point”. So what is it that you’re doing Moxie? Cause to me, you’re the one desperately trying to prove your point, and using every tangent and distraction to slide out of owning up to anything you’re saying.

      You get a prize for proving I inferred that you make sure you go to wine places. Reread your comments. It’s all wine bar this, and wine bar that. Wine bars cost this (as if no other option exists). I don’t drink anything but wine. What was the point of restricting the entire debate to wine bars if you are actually going to non wine bars?

      The quotation marks were to point out that it’s not a coincidence that, despite there being a wide variety of places in the city, the ones suggested are usually on the higher side of the cost scale. YOU are inferring that this means they are trying to get a free “meal” out of me. I’m not. I understand that it’s often simply because it’s what they’re used to, or because they’re thinking “this place is fun and nice”. I’m not holding this fact against women, I’m simply taking control of the situation to mitigate the impact on me.

      And why the hell do you keep bringing up pubs? I don’t even like pubs! Is that all this city is to you Moxie? Wine bars, and everything else is some dirty pub? Despite your insistence that “any decent wine bar is $12-$13 a glass”, I can find you many that aren’t. I can find you many nice lounges that sell $8 drinks. There are jazz clubs, rock band venues, bowling alleys, pool halls, sports bars, and a million other places to take dates. Everything isn’t just wine bars. Widen your horizons and broaden your narrow perspectives.

      Me saying dates 1-3 are a waste had nothing to do with any of my snob comments. I don’t know where you’re getting this carp. You’re the snob Moxie. You’re a snob about living in Manhattan. You’re a snob about roommates. You’re a snob about wine bars. You keep trying to warp things into me dissing all women to try and paint me as this bitter ogre with a chip on his shoulder.

      Let’s clear something up. I don’t think a woman is a snob simply because she doesn’t like me. That’s absurd.

      I will meet up with anyone from online that I am attracted to. I believe in YOUR principle to not limit myself to a weighty set of filters that may or may not have any bearing on whether I have a spark with a person. So yeah, there are a good number of people that I meet, and then it’s apparent there is no spark. It’s apparent to both of us. There are people I meet that like me and I don’t like them. There are people I meet that I like that don’t like me. All of that money I spent to find this out, it’s wasted money. I’m not mad about it, but I am going to make sure that “wasted” money is an amount I feel comfortable with, and not some fancy place that should be reserved for someone who I will actually see again in my lifetime! So if anything, my “problem” is that I’m not playing it safe. Not putting up a strict set of filters that may give me a higher ROI. Maybe I’m open to finding that needle in a haystack.

      “What happens if you and a woman are getting on and you decide drinks could turn in to dinner? Or you and she end up having 3 rounds of drinks and an appetizer at one of those places that resides on that list you’ve compiled?”

      What happens? It turns into as many drinks as we want, as many appetizers as we want, and going out to dinner if we want. That’s the beauty of picking a place that has $8 drinks. All the drinks continue to be $8. Usually the appetizers they sell are similarly reasonably priced. And if we start walking to find a place for dinner, I will steer us towards something that is reasonable, has a nice ambiance, and is tasty.

      Why do you keep trying to paint me as this cheap miser just because I pick places that are cost effective? You have completely painted this imaginary picture of me on a date. I’m sitting there with this miserly grimace. I’m adding up everything my date orders. I raise an eyebrow when she orders the steak instead of the chicken. I start growing resentful and bitter as the bills pile up. And I cut things off early because my “limit” has been reached. All a complete fabrication of what really happens out on a date with me. And it’s absurd that you have jumped to this conclusion simply by the fact that I tell you I try to pick a place that has both good ambiance AND reasonable pricing. This is more of what makes you a snob. Someone who is simply responsible in picking what places they go to MUST be some kind of trashy Brooklyn cheapskate.

      I look back through everything I’ve written and you’ve written. Here you are trying to prove I have bias. How do you explain all your completely off base assumptions about me? I can explain it for you, it’s because of YOUR bias.

      • trouble Says:

        Why do you keep trying to paint me as this cheap miser just because I pick places that are cost effective?

        It’s not that you pick cheap places. It’s that you operate off of a base premise that, when given a choice, women are going to ensure that you spend more than you want.

        Boyfriend and I are currently discussing marriage and rings. He’s ring shopping (without me) and wants to hand a ring in hand before popping the question. I basically told him, flat out, that he was not to spend more than 3 figures on a ring for me (and preferably, under $500). I work in dangerous areas, and do a lot of work outdoors. I don’t want/need an expensive ring.

        I’ve come to believe it’s like playing “slug bug.” I never see VW’s unless my kids and I are slugging each other. But, when we play a lot of slug bug, I see them everywhere. When you spend your time operating off of a base negative premise about the opposite sex, that’s all you’ll see.

        I guarantee that your negative attitudes about women are hindering you. They permeate a lot of what you write here, in spite of your backpedaling.

        • trouble Says:

          to add to the above: i’d be happy with a $20 titanium band from ebay, he’s the traditionalist who thinks his fiance should have a pretty ring with a diamond on it. Not all women fall prey to traditionalist mentalities, nor are we all looking to pillage your wallets.

        • WO7 Says:

          The FACT that more often than not, women will pick plans on a first or second date that involve me spending more money then “I” want to, has nothing to do with the definition of “cheap” or “miser”. Your rebuttal makes no sense.

          You can guarantee whatever you like. In court, they’d call it hearsay. The truth is, you can determine very little about what I’m like as a person from what I post on an internet blog. You also keep insisting that I have a negative attitude about women simply because I disagree with you on what is the MOST COMMON behavior. You seem to (falsely) think that just because there are exceptions to majority that it changes the law of averages. If I choose a place that is priced at what I want to spend, and the woman is one of the minority who would have never picked a more expensive place or itinerary, then I have lost nothing. But if I don’t pick a place that is what I want to spend, and the woman DOES pick a place or itinerary that costs more then I want to spend, then I have. So what do I gain by pretending it’s not the MOST COMMON (ie more than 50%) thing that will happen in NYC? Just so you can’t falsely accuse me of having a negative attitude? You keep putting EMOTION into decisions I am making based on pure logic and reason. There is no notable emotion involved in my decision to do this. The only emotions you’re picking up on is my annoyance at having to argue with people who can’t stay on topic, can’t remember the things I have actually written, and come up with skewed interpretations of the things they can remember.

          I have already wasted more keystrokes then I should have explaining that I have no suppositions that women are doing this on purpose, out of malice, greed, or gold digging. The fact that EVERYONE who has disagreed with me has brought this up proves that people are PROJECTING. They are getting emotionally invested and offended after IMAGINING an opinion I don’t hold, and then it causes them to be unable to listed to what I am ACTUALLY saying.

          Saying that I have a negative attitude about women and that it’s hindering my dating, is a straw man. There is no way for me to defend it because there are no facts to back up the statement. You’re simply stating your own opinion (clouded by personal bias). Notice how I am mostly sticking to the issue, and rarely trying to suggest that the only reason you think what you do is because there is something “wrong” with you. The only exception I can remember is calling Moxie a snob, which was based on direct statements that she made, not simply a “vibe” I was picking up on.

          Learn to debate the points presented, and stop trying to cheat by using logical fallacies.

  24. Susan Says:

    New guy just called, I told him I live on the UWS, he asked if I was free to meet him tonight at a place nearby that he likes, which I happen to know serves $5 martinis on happy hour. That’s what I call stepping it up but keeping it simple; I think I’m in love.

    • chuckrock Says:

      Good luck! Luckily for him that you seem down to earth enough to drink a $5 martini and didn’t insist he take you to a place that only serves $13 glasses of wine :)

      • Susan Says:

        Thanks!! and lol! Like I said, I would be happy drinking $1 draughts with a guy who comes up with a plan, especially when he says it’s a favorite place of his that he wants to share with me.

        • Susan Says:

          I may be hard to get, but I’m easy to be with ;)

          • chuckrock Says:

            how were the martinis?

            • Susan Says:

              Great cosmo (not too sweet, just how I like it), good conversation, a little chemistry that might grow if he asks me out again ;)

              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                I’d appreciate it if you two would drop this conversation. The comment thread is already cluttered enough. This is an irrelevant discussion pertinent to nobody but you two.

                • chuckrock Says:

                  it’s actually totally relevant. It is proof that an inexpensive first date in manhattan is not only possible (as WO7 has claimed) but proof that it is something that can go well. No need to go to that upscale wine bar, and spend ungodly amounts of money on a women you are just meeting for the first time. If she is a decent person and down to earth , like susan seems to be, she will enjoy herself anywhere.

                • Susan Says:

                  Yes, obviously far less relevant than the current weight loss debate and the previous Manhattan snobs thread. People being combative and hurling insults at one another seems to be what passes for interesting reading here as opposed to a friendly exchange about dating experiences. This is the Jerry Springer of dating blogs.

                  • Paula Says:

                    I think the problem is that there is no way for people who hang out here regularly to message one another about things not relevant to the topic. The former platform (TypePad) I believe would allow you to message people privately without them sharing email addresses. I don’t know if that’s a WordPress plug-in, Moxie, but it would certainly help build community among your regulars…

                    I agree with you about the weight loss debate, actually — I don’t think it belongs here, but there’s no way to respond to the “I’m going to insult fat people because I think I’m morally superior to them, and I’m certainly not going to openly date them” argument without referencing the science which makes that factually wrong instead of just condescending and rude.

                    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                      I don’t think it belongs here, but there’s no way to respond to the “I’m going to insult fat people because I think I’m morally superior to them, and I’m certainly not going to openly date them” argument without referencing the science which makes that factually wrong instead of just condescending and rude.

                      You could always just not respond to it. The problem isn’t the lack of community. The problem is that certain people don’t know the difference between being an active participant in a discussion and trying to hijack discussions so they can get attention and talk about themselves or have the last word. Why should people be expected to side step all the more personal comments just so they can continue reading the rest of comments? It’s not about you. It’s not even about me. Two people talking about their dates is not building a community. We have a vibrant community here. There’s never been any complaints.

                      What people need to think about when they’re reading and writing comments: what is going to facilitate a discussion versus what will hinder it. And this discussion has been hindered. Days ago. Nobody is taking the time to go through these comments. That means we’re all missing out on possibly insightful feedback. I don’t mind the occasional volley or debate. But when it’s just a clearly personal conversation going on between just two people, and NOBODY ELSE is bothering to add to that conversation, it means people just don’t care.

                      I barely discuss MY personal life here. That’s just not what this blog is for.

                    • Susan Says:

                      I didn’t intend to “hijack” the discussion and my apologies if that’s how it came across. Nor am I looking to be set up. What I was trying to do was shift the tone to a more civil one, because I really am interested in hearing other people’s perspectives and experiences without attracting the flames. WO7 for example contributed his fair share of that but has a point when he says he replies the way he’s approached. His replies to me were not contentious at all and really added something of value to the conversation. As for chuckrock, who everyone apparently seems to think is my new love interest, our early interaction could have gone very differently. He wrote, “I don’t know how you got that from my post.” Had I replied along the lines of, “Don’t be such an idiot, read what I wrote instead of making ridiculous assumptions,” we would have been off and running like many of the other threads. And I suspect that wouldn’t have been cut off.

                      Paula I have no problem with your diet offshoot and I completely understand why you would want to reply. It just seems to me that shutting down a friendly thread while allowing other contentious and slightly off-topic ones to continue is an unusual way to moderate a dating blog.

  25. Paula Says:

    I barely discuss MY personal life here. That’s just not what this blog is for.

    This blog was started back in August of 2004. In the beginning, it was a place for me to write about my various (and pointless) romantic and sexual escapades….

    It’s your blog, Moxie, so if you want cognitive dissonance to reign supreme, that’s fine. But I think we all know that if dating and blogging did mix a little better for you, we’d continue to get the gory details for which the so-called “private” blog was famous.

    I am curious about chuckrock’s dates, and saj’s wonderful husband who she occasionally wants to kill, DMN as Brad Fucking Pitt, and those folks who talk wonderfully about the person they’re dating until a post a couple of months later where his/her name is mud. And we could all ignore W07 (yourself included, as you took several shots at him as well) but it would be a lot less interesting around these parts.

    And occasionally there are people here who would like to be set up, so if we all had fixed profiles and the ability to communicate directly with each other as ATWYS blog commenters, who knows what could happen? I just returned from a national blogger conference where people have “known” each other for years through their profiles, and some amazing things have resulted from it…marriages, political movements, wild and crazy hookups, jobs, you name it.

    Just a suggestion…but again, it’s your blog. I’m sure we’d all be happy to take off-topic comments privately if we had the ability to.

    • Saj Says:

      Haha, I don’t mine the personal tid bits because it’s good to get some insight with the people you are most likely to be debating I just don’t like the bullying which W07 is doing a crap ton of. It’s IM DEBATING MY POINT while INSULTING YOU AND CALLING YOU NAMES and IM NOT ANGRY HOW DARE YOU FALSELY SAY SO repeat x 100000. Headache inducing. Or chuckrock just repeating the same point over and over and over again. I don’t mine the same people posting again as long as they are saying something different. Not a case of I’m going to repeat myself til the other person gets bored and walks away.

      Replying by calling someone a name and just repeating your point again does not a debate/discussion make.

      • chuckrock Says:

        I don’t see where i am repeating the same point over and over. Maybe you should read closer, as each post makes a separate point or illustration.

        I see where I am having discussions with other commenters on a specific point, which requires some back and forth…as per the basic concept of a discussion. I guess I will just stop posting at all, so that no discussions develop because of it.

      • WO7 Says:

        Saj, be my guest and find one instance where I insulted someone without them insulting me first. I do not cast the first stone, and I will not apologize for not being a doormat and letting people be rude to me without a response.

        Also, be my guest and find a single reply by me where I am simply repeating myself, and not responding to additional points brought up by a new post.

        Is my overarching theme the same for all my posts contained within a thread that is all about one topic? Yeah, that’s kind of how it works when a thread is in response to one topic.

        According to you, I’m allowed to make my point once, and when people rebut it with their rebuttals, I’m not allowed to respond to them. That would sure make for a boring debate. And basically the last person to respond would always win. Because they would have the luxury of reading everyone else’s point and rebut all of them with no fear of their points being rebutted.

        And if you were being honest, you would realize that your post serves no purpose other than to be insulting to me and chuckrock. Which is ironic since this is exactly what you’re accusing me of.

    • Susan Says:

      Yes I tried that but it wasn’t allowed.

    • WO7 Says:

      We could all ignore WO7, huh? Why don’t you scroll back up and see my thumbs up to thumbs down ratio. There are plenty of people who agree with me. Just because YOU don’t, doesn’t make my opinions invalid, nor does it make me some ranting lunatic to be ignored.

      I am so tired of the Saj and Paula Moxie cheerleading squad that can’t handle anyone disagreeing with her.

      I agree with Moxie plenty of times. I’m allowed to disagree with her on a point or two.

      I’m a man, all three of you are women. There is a good chance that we have different views of the world!

  26. Paula Says:

    WO7, you don’t spend much time here, (or read very carefully) or you would realize that I’m hardly a Moxie cheerleading squad. Moxie and I disagree nearly as often as we agree, but we’ve figured out how to do it respectfully. (Although it did take a little while to get there — I think she banned me for a while at one point.)

    There is plenty of disagreement around here, but you made it nasty and personal. You used LOTS OF CAPITAL LETTERS, which you should probably understand by now is the equivalent of SCREAMING on the Internet. And you called women who disagreed with you “ugly fat cows,” which is just offensive (in addition to being completely irrelevant to the point you were making).

    Were you being ironic when talking about people who couldn’t handle anyone disagreeing with them?

  27. Juanita Says:

    I’m aware this is an old post but as it was just tweeted I thought I’d read the post and the comments. Well, half of them, as there’s a LOT! All I can say is, I’m glad I’m not dating in NYC as it seems like even more of a minefield than my experiences in the UK. Personally I always expect to go Dutch, always. It’s nice if he offers to pay but it isn’t a dealbreaker, and if it’s just drinks and we make it to more than one, why wouldn’t we alternate paying for them?

    And, I’d never commit to a meal on a first date – why commit to spending that much time with someone you’ve never met, when you may struggle with chemistry and conversation? A drink, whether coffee or alcohol, gives you long enough to suss each other out, and the option to either extend or escape depending on the outcome.

  28. Henry Says:

    As a man on this side of the equation I have always felt it was best to change the statement of intent to a statement and a leading as question. “I was thinking we could hit up the Delta restaurant down in SE, you like cajun contemporary?. It is at both times decisive but open so if she once found a toenail clipping in her dirty rice with an Ex she does not yet wish to bring up yet it gives your date a easy out.

  29. Robin Says:

    I just think, Men forget, to ask a gal out then not plan, well, we aren’t your pals or buddies. It’s a treat to be invited out.

    I know there are women out there that have wanted to control every ounce of the evening to ensure it goes the way they want…. then guys wonder why they can’t make decisions down the road????
    Or why you have a 2nd mother in life? Better yet, guys say, well she didn’t even know anything about me?? Didn’t do what I liked? Well, if you don’t show them in the beginning, it will most likely be oneway (her’s) all the way… so no thank you…

    Taking away that first date even if online meeting, takes away how he can discover likes and dislikes about you. What is real.

    So take a risk, step up and plan, take the time in getting to know someone and stop skipping needed steps or well then just go hang with your buddies for a lifetime!

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