Why Do We Test People?

Name: Perplexed Man |  Location: Chicsgo , IL |Question: I have been out if the dating loop for a while, and I’m having trouble deciphering whether a woman is generally interested in me, it she’s being nice. First date seemed to go well, and throughout the next week we exchanged fun and somewhat flirty (more on my end) texts. When I asked her out for a second time she said she should be available. The day of the date, she asked for a raincheck, that she couldn’t make it out because she was tired and she was going on vacation. Since she didn’t follow that up with any indication that she wanted to get together when she got back, I just wrote her off as not that interested in me, and moved on. But she continued to text me (unsolicited) everyday she was on vacation. I would think if she definitely wasn’t interested, she wouldn’t text me while she was on vacation. So I’m wondering: should I bother asking her out again? Are women still in that ‘the man must make EVERY move mode’ or am I overthinking? |Age: 41

 

You’re not over thinking. She’s waiting for you to ask her out. I’ve mentioned this before, but I think there are a lot of people out there – men and women – who do something similar. They go out with someone once or twice, then cancel the second or third date. Then they sit back and wait for the other person to follow up with them  and ask them out. Often times, but not always, it’s a test. They want to see how interested the other person really is. They cancel plans, truly believing their ill or sleepy or busy but actually could go meet the person. They’re waiting for the other person to chase them to some degree.

One of two things is going on here:

1. She’s genuinely interested, but stuff came up and she couldn’t go out with you. She’s texting you to show you she’s still interested. In her mind, she’s served you the ball and showing you she’s in to you. Now she’s waiting for you to volley back and ask her out. After a certain point, she’s going to do the whole “Sheesh! Why isn’t he asking me out??” thing. So ask her out. It’s not worth engaging in a pissing match. Life is just too short for that.

2. She’s not terribly interested in having a relationship with anyone, but thinks she is. She’s keeping you around for the attention you provide.

The problem is that you won’t know which it is unless you ask her out again.She’s either going to jump at the chance or stall. If she stalls, you have your answer.

Are women still in that ‘the man must make EVERY move mode’ or am I overthinking?

Yes, they are. They’re still in that mode. At least some of them are. This woman truly believes – and to some extent she’s correct – that’s she’s making effort and putting herself out there. I think it’s ridiculous to engage in some sort of back and forth thing. At this point, she should just suggest you meet up when she gets home from vacation. I’m truly hoping she’s not one of those people who gets exasperated every time the text alert bell rings and wonders why you just don’t call her. In those cases, ladies, if it’s REALLY important that you talk on the phone, call them. It’s just so silly to be sitting there responding with the exact same behavior that has you annoyed. I think these women are waiting for permission to take the lead or assert control.

You shouldn’t and don’t need permission to express yourself. As we’ve said so many times, men will choose the path of least resistance. We know that. So rather than act surprised when they do what we know they’re going to do, take action.

In the OP’s scenario above, both people are wondering who should take action and falling back on outdated gender rules. There are no more gender rules anymore, folks.  You have to stop playing by them as if they exist. They don’t. There’s just no time for that anymore. Everything about how we connect and communicate now revolves around brevity and speed.

 

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96 Responses to “Why Do We Test People?”

  1. Leah Says:

    I think it’s fine for women to ask men out. However, in my two post-divorce years of being single, the only guys who were interested in me were the ones who made the first move. I’ve lost track of the number of guys I’ve sent messages to on match and okcupid, and not one of them have led to a date. In fact, probably 98% of the time, they never even respond to my message. Just from personal experience, I’m a firm believer that if a guy’s interested, he’ll let you know.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 2

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    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      If you only date people who contact you first, it is not surprising that you would have a 100% success rate. That’s not about gender roles. Pretend you’re a guy. If you did the exact same exercise, i.e. send out a few emails to women you are interested in and respond to a few that contacted you (that you were interested in), I’m sure you would have exactly the same results. The ones you contacted would not be interested and the ones that contacted you? Would be. Because, duh, that’s why they contacted you.

      People chase after people who aren’t interested in them. It’s an epidemic. And, it’s gender neutral.

      The reason I disagree somewhat with Moxie’s point is that, while I don’t believe that there are huge, fundamental differences between men and women, I do believe that there is one relevant difference that’s critical here: men will sleep with women they are not really interested in. If you are a woman, and you make yourself too available, men will date you and sleep with you because you let them. From your perspective, you will think your availability is CAUSING them to lose interest but, in fact, they were never interested in the first place. You offered, they accepted. Women don’t accept just because a guy offers. So, this difference between men and women means that women need to be less available. Otherwise, gender doesn’t matter.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 16 Thumb down 7

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      • breebree Says:

        so driving me nuts are you saying that the only time people are truly sincerely interested in you is when they approach you first?????
        I disagree….And people don’t chase after people who aren’t interested in them….they chase after the people they are interested in……sometimes those people are interested and sometimes they are not.
        And some men will not date a woman who is not available because they will feel like she is playing them and they will lose interest and date a woman who is more available to him.
        What logical sense would it make to date and sleep with someone you weren’t that interested in??????

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3

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        • Cricri Says:

          [ What logical sense would it make to date and sleep with someone you weren’t that interested in?????? ]

          Because it is entertaining? People do that all the time!

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

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          • breebree Says:

            Cricri thats a sad sad reason and crazy as hell…lol

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2

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            • Cricri Says:

              Yeah, but it doesn’t mean it is not the truth and I’m surprised that you’ve never encounter that phenomenon since it is been around for ages. Gotta plug in to reality someday or you’ll be in for bad discoveries.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

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            • Vox Says:

              That seems crazy to you, but having men regularly cheat on you, your mother and grandmother (while claiming it’s just my dick acting out, i dont care about the woman) is normal?

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

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              • breebree Says:

                Vox men cheating is crazy too and sad and to me wrong and no not normal.
                Unfortunately lying and cheating nowadays has become the norm in society…so it is what it is……

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                • Vox Says:

                  You won’t believe me, but you are bringing the lying cheaters on yourself. Cheating isn’t the norm at all. A lot of women come across 1 cheater (maybe 2) and they learn from it, an make better dating choices going forward. But if in your world lying and cheating is the norm, it is because you choose to associate with men of low character. And that you think it is the norm allows you to keep up the same old selection patterns you’ve embraced for yourself.

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                  • Crotch Rocket Says:

                    “Cheating isn’t the norm at all.” Well, that depends on how one defines “the norm”. 49% of men and 48% of women admit to cheating, and it’s likely many cheat but don’t admit it, so it’s not exactly unusual.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “What logical sense would it make to date and sleep with someone you weren’t that interested in?” To get laid? To get attention? Because you have nobody/nothing better to do? There are plenty of reasons people do this.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

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          • breebree Says:

            And thats the problem Crotch Rocket….unfortunately folks are only aging and not “maturing”
            Those are illogical and crazy azz reasons….thats stuff a child would do….not a grown azz person who should know better……..

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

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            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              How have to deal with the world the way it is, not the way you wish it were. Expecting everyone to be mature, simply because of their chronological age, is a recipe for disappointment.

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        • Andrew Says:

          The problem with dating is that people never say exactly what’s on their mind. Both sides seem to have to walk a fine line that says I am interested in you but I am also a substantial indiviual that is not needy. Crazy ardent behavior is quickly misinterpreted as that person not being that valuable and worthwhile. I know its annoying, but given our shortcomings as humans, very necessary. What I often advise is the golden rule. Also try to do turnaround in your brain. If you are a woman and a guy stands you up for a date, what do you expect? These are the types of things women should be thinking about after they stand a guy up for a date, not playing stupid games. This is how women end up 40 something, single and bitching about it. Nothing is wrong with 40 something and single. Its the bitching about it and whining after blowing many opportunities.

          What I will advise this guy to do is to put her on the spot. Guys let women off the hook too easily. Ask her when or how she plans on making it up to you. When one person stands any person up, unless its a major emergency, there is an implicit message that my time is more valuable than your time, or I’m not sure you are that important. If she responds badly to it, send her a message saying “Have a wonderful day/evening, I gotta run, gotta finish up my work so I can make my date this evening” and end communication.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

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      • Leela Says:

        What you are saying is the reason there are still women out there that expect the man to make ALL the moves.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

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        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          Sometimes the truth is inconvenient. Regardless of your gender, if you are happy with the quality of people pursuing you, then I see no problem letting them do the work.

          The problem is that people are not happy with their suitors. That’s when they take to the Internet and demand that “better” people should pursue them.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

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          • breebree Says:

            And driving me nutes even when folks are happy with the people they are with they may not be treated right……..
            I personally know a girl who dated a semi-pro basketball player..was engaged to him and lived with him overseas…..but he lied, cheated and hardly spent any time with her……so what good was it being with a man she was in love with and highly attracted to????

            Ideally I think most folks just want the person they love and are in love with to love them back and treat them really well and keep them happy and fulfilled.
            Folks want to be treated as well as they treat the other person….unfortunately this just does not happen many times….
            Even when your with someone your highly attracted to and love to death doesn’t mean they are treating you right and loving you the way you need and want to be love for you to be happy and content with them.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

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            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              “Folks want to be treated as well as they treat the other person….unfortunately this just does not happen many times” In many cases, that’s because the two people have different ideas of what “treated well” means. For instance, you may want to be showered with attention and therefore do that to your partner, but he might want his own space and see you as clingy. That’s why you need to communicate with your partners.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “women out there … expect the man to make ALL the moves.” In most cases, yes. It’s possible that she thinks her texts are “making a move”, but it should be fairly obvious from his confusion that they’re not.

          She cancelled on him, so the onus is on her to make alternate plans.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

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      • Cricri Says:

        While I feel it is sad, it is nonetheless the truth. Some guys did it to me which were confusing but I guess I was assuming everybody had similar dating ethics as mine. I cornered and asked and got the “I’m not looking for a relationship” speech to find them dating an acquaintance few months later. Beyond the embarrassment, it just tamed some of those feminist egalitarian blabs about how women should and can ask men out. You just have to know when to use it. Preferably with men who already showed clear interest in you.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

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      • Saj Says:

        Eeep I agree with DMN, I must have a fever.

        Best way to go is if you are dead set on going after someone who at that point had yet to show any signs of interest is to get the word out and flirt a little but don’t be super over and read their signals if they are throwing them back.

        The golden vagina syndrome IMO isn’t the the man must jump through a flaming hoop of fire to win it but more of a..I gave it to him without knowing him that well so why isn’t he smitten? The two don’t usually go hand in hand. Wait for other signs of being smitten instead of him going through the motions of buttering you up for sex. These signs are moving too fast physically, trying to get you to his place ASAP, overtly sexual in texts before you really know him.

        As for the OP well just ask her out doofus. She says yes then you know she likes you. If finds another excuse then she doesn’t. All of this can be cleared up in seconds. For guys gauging interest is easier and more accurate if a girl accepts a date rather then vice versa.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “Wait for other signs of being smitten instead of him going through the motions of buttering you up for sex.” Unfortunately, that’s not so easy since many men are quite skilled at faking it–in both word and (visible) deed. You can only trust things that do not further his assumed goal of getting laid, and most women are not practiced at decoding things in that light. As an experiment, rather than fast-forwarding through all the commercials on your TiVo, pause after each commercial targeted at men and ask yourself “how does this product/service help guys get laid?” If you can’t answer that, ask a male friend to explain it to you. Once you can do that reliably, without much thinking, you are sufficiently jaded to be able to spot most players. (For fun, also pause after each commercial targeted at women and ask yourself “how does this product/service help me get married?”)

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      • Kurt Says:

        A man has to be at least somewhat interested in a woman if he is going to take the time to date just to get sex. Most guys would probably prefer to masturbate than to have sex with a women whom isn’t attractive at all and is a heinous beast.

        Some women do the same thing to guys and do sleep around even if they know a guy really likes them and isn’t seeing anyone else.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

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  2. Leah Says:

    I see what you’re saying, but the reason I date guys who contact me first is because they’re the ones who’ve asked me out. While I have no qualms about asking a guy out, if I send a message to a guy and he doesn’t even look at my profile, much less respond to my message, asking him out would be a complete exercise in futility. Needless to say, it seems everyone has a hard time of it, men and women.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

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    • Really Rosie Says:

      I am having similar results as Leah. I contact men on both OKC and Match with something that shows I actually read their profiles and found something in common/interesting, and rarely do they contact me back. They will visit mine but no reciprocity. The ones (for the most part) who I have actually met in person were the ones who contacted me first.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      I see what you’re saying, but the reason I date gals who contact me first is because they’re the ones who’ve asked me out. While I have no qualms about asking a gal out, if I send a message to a gal and she doesn’t even look at my profile, much less respond to my message, asking her out would be a complete exercise in futility.

      See how ridiculous that exact same logic sounds when it comes from a guy? What makes you so special that you can use it, other than female entitlement? In practice, the vast majority of times you (male or female) contact someone or ask them out, they’re going to ignore you or decline. Women aren’t used to this because, until they pass 30 or so, they’ve always had plenty of free attention and never had to do any of the work themselves; however, the tables turn and they get a glimpse of what men (in particular, all the ones they’ve been rejecting) have been dealing with for the last 20+ years.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4

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      • M Says:

        Actually, the logic makes sense to me coming from a female OR a male. Why would you ask somone out who has not hinted at, or otherwise shown any interest?

        P.S: Maybe you’re not, but you seem REALLY angry at women.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “Maybe you’re not, but you seem REALLY angry at women.” I’m angry at stupid people, and roughly half of stupid people are women.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

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          • M Says:

            Ummm….Wow!

            Honestly, to me the latter part of your post just comes across as holding some grudge from high school, college maybe, or your teens & twenties. The reality is that there were men AND women who when younger were not approached (or responded to) by people they liked of the opposite sex. Typically though (I think), people eventually get over it (even if they don’t forget it) and move on – particularly by the time you’re a full fledged adult.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

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            • Joey Giraud Says:

              People can get over things eventually, but only if the original problem goes away.

              Unfortunately, the privileged attitude of many women where men are involved, well that doesn’t really go away as we all age..

              though one might think it would.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2

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            • WO7 Says:

              Uhh, he was making a joke M. The human race is roughly half men and half women. So obviously half of all stupid people are women (and if you read between the lines, they’re also half MEN).

              I don’t even understand Leah’s post.

              “I see what you’re saying, but the reason I date guys who contact me first is because they’re the ones who’ve asked me out. While I have no qualms about asking a guy out, if I send a message to a guy and he doesn’t even look at my profile, much less respond to my message, asking him out would be a complete exercise in futility.”

              I think CR was making a logical leap. That you’re saying that since some people completely ignore you, you don’t waste your time at all on contacting men, you just wait for them to come to you. Cause if that logical leap is not meant to be there…then what was the point of connecting two completely unrelated sentences? “I date guys who contact me first.” and “Asking a guy out who ignores my message completely would be an exercise in futility.” Cause I don’t really see the connection between those two statements other than assuming the same thing I think CR assumed.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

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  3. Lilly Says:

    “There are no more gender rules anymore, folks. You have to stop playing by them as if they exist. They don’t. There’s just no time for that anymore. Everything about how we connect and communicate now revolves around brevity and speed.”

    As much as I would love to believe the first part of this statement- I think maybe this applies only for younger people. For those of us over 40- we are just not wired that way. Even if we have iphones- it’s not easy to change “the rules”…even if we want to! I know a lot of men who still like to do the chasing- and a lot of women who still like to be chased.

    As for the last part about everything being about brevity and speed- God I hope that’s not true!! Again probably for a younger crowd that is used to texting, sexting, and thinking that checking facebook is a substitute for real friendships.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

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    • Leela Says:

      It’s not just the over 40 Lilly. I am totally with you. I don’t believe in rules and I try to communicate as honestly and openly as possible, but I need a little something from the men to do that.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

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      • nathan Says:

        You know, whenever I write about trying to shift away from the old gender roles, I get a ton of flack.Endless defenses of why it’s “just that way” and that you, as the man, better suck it up and do your job. So, I think both men and women who actually recognize that there are options as to how we handle dating – instead of just playing the same old roles and games – are gonna face flack.

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  4. Christina Says:

    It seems a lot of people make things harder than they have to be. I wonder how many great relationships never happened because one or both parties were too caught up second-guessing themselves or worrying about “rules.”

    I think a lot of women make an attempt to ask men out, and after they’ve been shot down once or twice, assert that it doesn’t work. Well, what do you think guys do? They don’t get a “yes” from every woman they ask out. Learning not to take rejections personally is a valuable life skill.

    When I was doing online dating, I got no response to well over 90 percent of the messages I sent out. In the end, the only thing that mattered was that the right guy was part of that tiny percentage that did respond.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0

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    • chuckrock Says:

      AMEN. EXACTLY!!

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    • trouble Says:

      I messaged plenty of guys who weren’t interested. I didn’t take it personally, because of the guys who messaged me, I wasn’t interested in 99%. I probably got a 30% positive response rate, which was significantly higher than my response rate to the guys who messaged me.

      FWIW, I kept at it, and when I messaged my boyfriend, he responded. 3+ years and I’m told a ring is in the near future.

      Don’t give up. But, if you do message a guy, let him show his interest to you, don’t be the one that pursues him at every turn. That’s the only way you’ll know that the feeling is mutual.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

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    • breebree Says:

      Christina you are right on….for whatever illogical reasons folks make things much much harder than they should be…….which is why many times people who probably should be together and would be perfect together are not together…..so sad…

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  5. VJ Says:

    The world is full of flakes of all kinds. We need to try and waste less time with those folks, and more on those who actively take an interest in humanity, others, themselves (Healthily!) and possible friends & lovers. If they’re unable or unwilling to do that? They’re either too busy, too immature, or not ready for a relationship of any kind. Or indeed are narcissists.

    In this scenario we can’t tell what’s up. Hence the safest thing to do if still perplexed is to forget them. Put them on the ‘back burner’. If they’re still Really interested? They’ll make some significant contact. The rest is just BS or flirting. And people can and do flirt with anyone & everyone.

    All this continuing coy coquette 19th century BS games of ‘catch me if you can’ and the even earlier ‘You MUST pursue the Prize & Perform said Worthy Deeds of Worship & Duty & Danger’, is ending in all but name for the newer generations. And if the over 40 (or Whatever) don’t quite ‘get this’, date a lower age grade until you find someone who understands you.

    Do whatever it takes to find someone who can & does ‘relate’. This woman, really seems pretty ambivalent here. No one knows what’s up, and perhaps that’s all part of the ‘game’ here, and ‘as it should be’. So be it. Perhaps let her find someone else willing to fulfill her needs for game players. There’s plenty of fish out there. Adults need to be able to express their desires as adults, and know also that few of us have much time to ‘waste’ on much of this dreck. ‘Sure let’s get together when I get back’ is not a difficult thought to express here, right? What am I missing? The gaming. That’s what! Cheers, ‘VJ’

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

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    • Leela Says:

      I totally disagree with you. I think that singles today are far too impatient not understanding, compassionate enough to others. You talk about people who actively take an interest in humanity, yet you are advising this guy to “not waste time” before even date 2. That’s a little abrupt.

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      • breebree Says:

        Leela I agree……folks have no patience nowadays…..we truly live in a “microwave” society and wonder why we have all the problems and issues that we have……..so sad.

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  6. Mark Says:

    I feel for you on this Perplexed.

    Initially things seemed to go well. Unfortunately that was followed by a “should be able to” immediately followed by a no-can-do raincheck. All this followed by the e-mails on her vacation.

    It might be a few things. She might actually be busy, so she is balancing a number of things. Having just met you she might have some initial interest, but having just met you, you are low on the priority list of things/people but she is still interested. As others have said, the might be testing you to see if there is legitimate interest on your part. She might also be messing with your mind. Finally, she actually might be legitimatelly interested.

    Which one of any is it. I can’t say at this point. But the hot/cold communication should make you more than a little leery about this one.

    So if you are really interested in her you might think of trying to set up a 2nd date. At this point if she is waffling about time, being busy or that sort of thing, it would probably be best to move on. After all, if she is testing you…well, you had enough tests when you were in school. You don’t need any more at this point in your life. If she is flakey or otherwise being cute about things…again, why would you want to deal with someone who is going to overly complicate you life at this stage in the game. If it’s this difficult for her to meet you now, it isn’t especially clear why things would improve with time. If it’s legitimate, then she might make a good faith effort to try to get together.

    Just some thoughts to consider.

    Best of luck.

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    • Kurt Says:

      She is definitely testing him. She wants to see whether he’ll tolerate her flaking on him like this. They had a date planned and she cancelled on the date of the date and did not propose a different day on which they could go out – that is not a good sign. I don’t think that her texts mean much – she probably just wants attention from the guy. If she is mature and is really interested in this guy, she would propose another date to make up for the one she cancelled.

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  7. Vox Says:

    I don’t ask men out anymore, whether online or in person. Why? I can’t tell he difference between a man who says yes because he is truly interested in me, and a man who says yes because he thinks I’d be a fun lay if ihe doesn’t have to work for it. The last few times I went out on dates with men I pursued online, they would end with the guy making the lamest attempt to bed me. I mean, I would say, “that was great, I had a lovely time” and he would answer, “oh, in that case why don’t we take things back to my place?” obviously a guy who would say that after a mediocre date is just taking a swing at the ball, does not even care if he strikes out.

    After this happened 3-4 times, I decided asking men out was not a success for me. Fact is, the number of men willing to fuck me is 100 times higher than the number who actually would like to get to know me (in addition to wanting to sleep with me too.) Maybe I am just a bad judge, maybe I asked out the wrong people, no idea. I just know that when men ask me out, it makes for a more successful date.

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    • breebree Says:

      Vox don’t give up…you never know.. some men may be shy or a little intimidated by you but really really like you a lot.
      But keep doing whatever works best for you.

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      • Vox Says:

        Its not a matter of “giving up,” it is a matter of wisely doing what works for me.

        Grown men are not intimidated, if they don’t ask me out it means tey aren’t interested. “They are intimidated” is nonsense a lot of women tell themselves to explain why someone isn’t biting on their bait. I do just fine now that I date men who like me, rather than spending time pursing men who don’t. I will leave the pursuit of men up to others, hopefully it word better for them.

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        • Kurt Says:

          I agree with you that men aren’t afraid to ask out women they meet online. However, a lot of men are hesitant to ask out a woman they meet in real life if they aren’t certain whether the woman likes them.

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          • Vox Says:

            That very well may be, but those men simply aren’t for me. I make my interest clear enough, or so I think. I have no problems getting dates right now from men who do ask, so there is no reason for me to pursue those who don’t.

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        • breebree Says:

          I see your point Vox…but men have told me they were “intimidated” by me at first and thats the reason they didn’t approach me sooner….I was told this a few times while in college because I was pretty popular and always surrounded by people and they really liked me and wasn’t sure if I would like them. This is human nature Vox…..Realistically most folks could never just go up to their fav celebrity crush and be cool and strike up a convo and not be the least bit nervous….thats the type of “intimidated” I’m speaking of. And it’s perfectly natural and happens to the best of us…
          I’ve heard many men say that they are intimidated when they see a woman they really like and wanna talk to who are surrounded by a huge posse of other women….like 5 or 6 other women.
          I’ve heard men say to women “if you are out and have more than 2 other women with you thats one too many…and many times we will not approach you just for that reason” Men say they don’t want to risk getting shot down and dissed in front of a bunch of other women. They feel like the other women will make them look stupid and laugh at them and they don’t want to risk the embarrassment.
          So Vox don’t think that just because a man didn’t ask you out that he isn’t interested because that is not always the case…..you may find out much much later that he really liked you so much so that you made him nervous “ie intimidated him” and he has valid and sincere reasons for not approaching you…
          Again ask yourself how easy it would be for you to approach your celebrity crush if you came face to face with that person…….

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          • chuckrock Says:

            I’ll add to this. If you are out with male friends, you are likely also difficult to approach.

            Vox, how do you make it clear that you are interested? Because guys like me usually don’t pick up on signals. If someone doesn’t flat out tell me chances are I’m not going to realize it. And if I am unsure I usually tend to error on the side of caution.

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            • nathan Says:

              I can’t recall ever approaching a woman who was out with friends, not even just one friend. And honestly, even though I might have some worries about getting shot down in front of her friends, it’s more an issue of respect and courtesy for me. I mean, she’s out with her friends or whomever they are enjoying herself. It just seems rude to me most of the time to be that stranger who interrupts their time together.

              Just because a man approaches you in public and asks you out, doesn’t mean he’s some prize adult catch. If I had a dollar for every dude I saw hitting on a woman on the bus, or the train, or in the bar I’d be filthy wealthy.

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              • Leela Says:

                Nathan – this is sweet and sad. Sweet that you are curteous. Sad because some groups of women are going out to MEET men. Sometimes we want them to approach us. Though we are pretty good at sending out signals when we do or do not. Like actually looking around at the crowd (scoping) instead of being super buried in our own conversation.

                I appreciate your choice. :)

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          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            “men have told me they were ‘intimidated’ by me at first and thats the reason they didn’t approach me sooner … because I was .. always surrounded by people” That’s not unusual; it takes an incredibly confident person to risk rejection (and possible ridicule) in front of an audience–and the people with that kind of confidence are usually self-centered assholes. Is it any surprise that seems to be the kind of guy you date? Maybe you should take a lesson from that and find ways for normal guys to approach you.

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          • Vox Says:

            None of these circumstances apply to me; I am not a celebrity and I don’t go out with groups of women. Men who don’t approach me are not intimidated, they simply are not interested.

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            • nathan Says:

              Lmao! Glad you’re having some luck meeting men, Vox, because your story about men’s reasons for approaching or not is quite simplistic, and frankly is bs. You have no idea what all the men who don’t approach you are thinking – how could you possibly know? But hey, if you’ve got a good run of guys coming in, no need to worry about all that. If the luck runs out, though, you might want to reconsider.

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              • Vox Says:

                I never stated the reasons *why* men do (or do not) approach me, so your criticism doesn’t make much sense.

                As for the men who *do* approach me, it has nothing to do with luck. I date men who ask me out, presumably because they are attract to me. (Actually, I only date men who think I’m hot, to be specific.) Dating the men who ask may seem like a silly strategy to you, but it is highly successful for me and most other women.

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                • Crotch Rocket Says:

                  “I never stated the reasons *why* men do (or do not) approach me” Actually, you did; scroll up a bit and you’ll see it in the previous comment.

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                  • Vox Says:

                    Quote me? I honestly don’t see where I said any such thing. And frankly I’ve never answered the question “why do men approach me” in my head either.

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                    • Crotch Rocket Says:

                      Since you’re apparently unable to remember or read what you said just a few hours ago above, I’ll quote it here: “Men who don’t approach me are not intimidated, they simply are not interested.” That certainly qualifies as “stat[ing] why men do (or do not) approach me”.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “I can’t tell he difference between a man who says yes because he is truly interested in me, and a man who says yes because he thinks I’d be a fun lay if ihe doesn’t have to work for it.” Kudos for recognizing that fault in yourself. However, no kudos for deciding to give up rather than correct said fault.

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    • WO7 Says:

      You’re acting like if the man asks you out it means they definitely want more then sex. I don’t see how that is anymore true then if you ask them out.

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  8. Leela Says:

    Of course you should ask her again?! I haven’t read Moxie’s response, but if you are the more flirty one and she knows that not only has she not been as flirty, but also cancelled your second date because she was tired (which all women know is a lame excuse, but sometimes just TRUE), she also knows that she might have messed it up with you already before date two. And in that state, especially if she is a little shy or just cautious about relationships (as lack of flirtyness might attest), she is not going to ask you. She is waiting to see if you are interested. And yes – it may be 2011, but women do want the men to make “all” the moves when you are under date number – oh – 5. Maybe not expect you to, but we want you to. It makes us feel woo’d.

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    • Leela Says:

      By the way – I should say that I am usually the one who messages first and have no qualms saying “let’s meet”. I don’t expect a guy to do it all, but I pretty much expect the suggestion for dates two and three to come from him. No logic behind – maybe its because I often do put it out there first or make the first move to kiss, etc.

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    • WO7 Says:

      Being tired IS a lame excuse, and as such, it should never be used.

      If I make plans with someone, I stick to them. Whether I’m tired, sick, or better plans come up. It’s a courtesy and respect thing. I force myself to honor my original commitments.

      Like it or not, I think there is a dearth of courtesy from women to men in the early part of the dating game.

      People should spend more time thinking about how they would feel if the other person did it to them, rather then simply how they feel without any care as to how it effects the other person.

      “I’m tired, but I would be upset if someone cancelled on me for being tired, so I’m going to tough it out.” rather than “I’m tired, and that’s more important then anything concerning the other person.”

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        OTOH, going on a date when you know you’re going to be poor company could also be considered disrespectful, so it’s a tough choice. If one does decide to cancel, though, one should always suggest a time for the next date to demonstrate interest and keep the conversation going.

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        • dimplz Says:

          I agree with this. If I were tired/sick, I would definitely ask for another date and make the arrangements and pay.

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        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          And to extend WO7’s “golden rule,” argument, I would WANT someone to reschedule a date with me as a courtesy to ME if they were feeling tired or not up to the date. Again, people trying to codify in some moral code their own personal preferences and pet peeves.

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          • chuckrock Says:

            I don’t mind being canceled on for tiredness, and I would want her to cancel on me if she was sick. Depending on how early on in # of dates it is, it will make me question whether she is being honest about the reason or whether she just wants to get out of seeing me…but that will be answered upon whether she goes out with me another time or not. I’ll usually put the ball in her court though by saying let me know when you aren’t sick s we can plan something, and if she never does then I know my answer.

            The current woman i am dating canceled date #3 for sickness. We went out twice and then she went away for a week and then canceled date 3 because of a fever. I was definitely questioning whether she actually wanted to see me again, but as soon as she was well she inquired into my availability. She didn’t even have to ask for a specific day but just let me know that she was still interested and i was able to ask her out for a specific night.

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        • Leela Says:

          OMG – I am about to say a very emphatic Thank you to CR. I am impressed CR.

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      • Leela Says:

        If you go on a date where you are tired, you are not going to be open to the other person. I say this – because I honor my commitments too. I have been cancelled on many times. I think I have cancelled ONCE! But I received a very good dating tip. Do everything you can to make the best situation possible for getting to know someone:
        a. don’t schedule a date after a long day of working on a tough project
        b. don’t schedule a date when you have too much on your mind – errands, etc.
        c. be ON TIME
        d. don’t go somewhere loud or too bright (ie strobe)
        e. go somewhere you can afford in case you have to buy and be ok with treating

        So I am just saying (for men and women alike) – sometimes being tired is NOT a lame excuse, but in today’s world, if you are a motivated, hard-working, active person – its the goshdarn truth! Should you cancel – no. Will it be the best date ever – absolutely not. If you can understand that and SO CAN YOUR DATE – go for it!

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  9. nathan Says:

    1. Screw the chase. And screw the “woo.” If a woman wants me to do all the work, I say goodbye and good luck.

    2. Whenever a woman e-mails me about my profile, I always respond, even if it’s to say thank you, but I’m not interested. If men want to change the balance, and have more women making the first move, we better well offer a bit of respect to those who take the risk to make the first move.

    3. Perplexed – the way I see it, you can do two things. Either send a point blank message to her saying “Let’s set up a time to go out on a date, or let’s stop talking,” or you can just stop responding to her. But I wouldn’t spend much more time thinking about it either way.

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    • Capt. Jack Sparrow Says:

      Perplexed. I wouldn’t follow nathan’s advice. Sending a point blank message to “Let’s set up a time to go out on a date, or let’s stop talking,” is way too blunt. It’s also socially awkward, and sounds like a business deal/proposal. I think there’s a middle ground. Best not issue an ultimatum … just send the offer for the date, and if you don’t hear back … that’s your answer.

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    • Kitty Mom Says:

      Screw the chase.??!!! And screw the woo??!!!
      What ever happened to flirting???
      If you are too lazy and self involved to pursue a woman that does not bode well for you as a potential as a lover or partner.
      Guys are supposed to be showing us what they have to offer if we take it to the next step.
      Dating is an opportunity to show each other your empathy, intelligence, ambition and imagination.
      You need to find someone who makes you want to be a better man.

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      • D Says:

        Playing games and putting off meeting with me does not make me want to be a better man. It makes me wish she were a better woman. First impressions go both ways.

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        • nathan Says:

          Yeah, I’ll retract the blunt statement. Reading over the letter again, it might be circumstantial that how things have happened. I just have experienced too many of these long, dragged out things where the other person either isn’t ready to date, isn’t that interested, or can’t decide – so they keep their options open – and you know, no one should have to be “an option.”

          Jack’s right though. Just asking her out again and then seeing if there is a response is probably better.

          Kitty Mom – you seem to know a lot about who I am from a single response. Pretty interesting to be judged so thoroughly so quickly.

          Anyway, there’s a big difference between demonstrating interest and chasing. I’ll certainly. make the effort. I’ll flirt. I ask her out. I’ll do my part. And if you had actually read my point above, I said “all the work,” not none of the work. If a guy does nothing, he’ll probably get nothing in return, which makes sense to me.

          But I’m not going to leap through a bunch of hoops to just to “prove” to someone that we should go out. Or that I’m worthy of being considered.

          That ‘s the kind of crap people played in high school, and I don’t know about you, but I haven’t been in high school for a really long time, and frankly have zero interest to go back there.

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        • Leela Says:

          That’s what she was saying with the last sentence. Dating is a chance to show each other…
          She was not saying it was a one way street.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “Guys are supposed to be showing us what they have to offer” … while the woman sits on her ass and does nothing but judge him? When is the woman supposed to show what she has to offer?

        The sexism and entitlement here is amazing at times.

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        • WO7 Says:

          The thing is, this is what women actually think.

          And to be honest, I get it. When all you have to do is sit around and things just come your way, entitlement follows.

          The same reason why more often then not, celebrities become entitled.

          It takes a special kind of person to stay grounded.

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        • Leela Says:

          Goes both ways.

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    • breebree Says:

      Nathan I agree with your response.

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  10. Dark Sarcasm Says:

    A) man and woman go out on date. Things seem to go well.
    B) man asks woman out on second date. Woman seems interested, but non-committal. Woman eventually bows out due to being tired.
    C) woman does not offer a follow up, such as ‘Lets meet up when I come back from vacation’. Man assumes woman is not interested in romantic relationship.
    D) woman continues to send unsolicited texts to man while she is on vacation, man wonders if he should ask woman out again, and possibly, is this type of behavior in women (needing the man to make all the moves) is still prevalent in the 21st century.
    That’s what I’m getting from the letter. Where did this discussion of women emailing men on online dating sites come in?
    #pleasestayontopic

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  11. Selena Says:

    Most people still understand how the traditional dating model works even if they don’t follow it precisely all down the line. You can toss “rules” away, but that doesn’t mean expectations change.

    Women don’t generally text /call men they aren’t interested in. They are more apt to ignore/avoid texts & calls from such men. The woman in the letter WAS showing interest by texting him every day she was on vacation. Since she asked for a raincheck before she left, she probably WAS expecting (hoping) he would ask her out again when she returned. Why didn’t he?

    This says more about the man and his insecurities than it does about “rules” and “tests”.

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    • nathan Says:

      Selena, I have had plenty of women call or e-mail me who were only marginally interested. Or who might have been interested, but couldn’t find any time to go out on the date I offered to go on in reply to those messages.

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      • Selena Says:

        Dunno Nathan. Texting someone you only went out with once – every day – while on Vacation!- strikes me as a woman who is more than marginally interested. What’s curious to me is why the OP is so willing to think otherwise.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “What’s curious to me is why the OP is so willing to think otherwise.” I can’t speak for the OP, but I take such demonstrations of “interest” with a grain of salt due to extensive experience with women who are happy to text, email talk on the phone, etc. but never seem to be available for an actual date. What you see as interest could just as easily be boredom, a need for attention, or many other things that are not genuine interest.

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        • Kurt Says:

          It takes almost no effort to send a text, so that is why he is so confused. At his age, he is probably used to women calling.

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          • nathan Says:

            I totally agree with Kurt and Crotch Rocket. Texting is easy. E-mailing is easy. I have had women send me several e-mails over a short period of time following first dates, but who never had time when it came to planning another date.

            So, I don’t know what to think. Is she interested or is she just passing time with someone?

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      • Leela Says:

        Do you expect women to be more than marginally interested in someone after two dates – really? Getting to know each other is a long process. And I have to say that I get nervous when I am too interested in someone (or vice versa) early on. It’s fun and thrilling, but usually doesn’t end in a relationship.

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  12. Joe Says:

    Why do we test each other? Sometimes because many people have gotten very good at pretending they are something they aren’t. Sometimes, this is innocuous, like a shy person being more forward than normal, but can be devastating if they really are a lying, abusive, jerk.

    Other times people test each other because they are the insecure jerks who want ego gratification and this is a cheap, manipulative way to do it.

    Finally, sometimes there is no test and the person can be taken at face value. I think the woman here is in this last category. Moreover, unless there are signs she’s nuts or a narcissist, what harm is there in seeing her again?

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “many people have gotten very good at pretending they are something they aren’t.” Unfortunately, these people (both men and women) are often actually better at playing the part–or at least do better at passing these silly “tests”–than genuine people are. That means you screen out genuine people and allow in only the fakers. Oops.

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  13. Joey Giraud Says:

    “There are no more gender rules anymore, folks”

    Neat! Now I can write things like: This Moxie, he has a great web site, and his posters are terrific too!

    ( really a language curmudgeon at heart. )

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  14. WO7 Says:

    To the OP, she is showing you interest. Try to plan a date again. If the second date falls through, then walk.

    I really don’t see why there is a question here.

    It was lame of her to cancel the first date. She knew she was going on vacation, she should have anticipated she might feel tired instead of schedule it then canceling. But honestly, women do this type of thing ALL THE TIME. In the beginning, before a woman has any idea how much she likes you, she is often VERY flakey.

    As a man, you can play the game, be persistent, and see where it leads you. Or you can give up, and then your options are stunted. I complain about the game, but I play it. Because the reality is, most people are still shackled by gender roles. Even good women that you don’t want to be missing out on. Not just the bad ones that you do.

    She might be just looking for attention. It might be a million things. You won’t know until you find out, and it really is not going to take much effort or time to schedule one more date. Certainly much less effort then it took to write in, ha.

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