Let’s say I go out on a date with someone I never want to see again. For me there’s only two reasons that
could be: he’s either rude or boring. If he asks for a second date, I don’t see the need to tell him I find him rude or boring – although this is the truth. What DOES need to be said is anything that makes it clear that there won’t be another date. Anything that leaves things ambiguous (“I don’t know”, “I’ll call you”, “I’m busy these days”) doesn’t help matters.
In this situation, I always use the same response “I really don’t feel we have enough in common to sustain a friendship, so I think it’s best we move on”. This makes it clear that there’s no “can we be friends” option.
If it’s a guy that I had fun with, but I’m not attracted to, I say “I had a great time – you’re a lot of fun! I don’t feel any chemistry though. Feel free to call if you want to hang out or chat sometime” Most (not all) guys I say this to do call, and I treat them like a friend, making sure to mention another date fairly early in the first conversation. If he still want’s to hang out – I’ve made a new friend. As soon as I’ve figured out that the guy isn’t who I want to date, I let him know. Not with “brutal” honesty. Not by being evasive until he gets the message. Not by being rude. But always by telling him what he needs to know.
I don’t know why guys can’t do the same thing. -Maargen
I was set up once with this guy and we had developed a bit of a friendly relationship over the phone for a couple of weeks. I thought we had great chemistry. Well, we finally went on a date and the chemistry was just not there. The guy asked me CONSTANTLY if I was having a good time (and also told me he was a human lie detector). What was I supposed to say? No? And then be cut into tiny pieces? So I said “yeah, sure”. I might have had a good time if I had not felt so pressured to have a good time! When he dropped me off, he asked me if I would call him again (and also demanded a kiss that he did not get). My response?
“I don’t know, because it is long distance…”
He put me on the spot numerous times and I lied because I was so uncomfortable. The date was over and he knew it but he would not just let it go, and the more he pressured me, the more I felt like a caged animal.
There are plenty of people that refuse to accept the signs that are slapping them repeatedly in the face that it’s just not going to work out. Those people are not going to just give up after the first try. And honestly, the guy that I had this horrible date with KNEW it was over. He never called me again after that. I didn’t have to be a total bitch to him to get the point accross. But I WAS riding in a car with this person that I barely knew (and who was displaying signs of emotional instability) and the idea of pissing him off was not so desireable to me at the time. – C
C, you didn’t have sex with him, or even kiss him, sounds like, so while I might have handled things a little differently, I agree that he was putting you on the spot. And being in his car requires additional concern for your safety.But — and I’ve known a number of Southerners that will kill you with sweet-tea kindness while stabbing you in the back — you could have just blinked, batted your eyelashes, and said, “Sugah, why do you ask? Are *you* having a good time?” Or, “I don’t have time to have a good time if you’re asking me if I am every five minutes.” (Granted, it’s always easier to come up with this sort of thing when you’re not being pressured, but it’s more about an approach or philosophy of dealing with people that you’re not going to resort to a lie when you’re in an uncomfortable situation. If you have at hand a way to turn back any questions that you’re not comfortable answering, then you’re much more likely to fall back on that technique in uncomfortable situations, rather than digging yourself deeper and deeper to the point that he is genuinely puzzled and confused why you won’t go out with him again.) -Paula
So I understand, you’re now saying its okay to be dishonest as long as you haven’t kissed or had sex. I don’t see why that matters. C was justified in being dishonest because it was socially appropriate. It doesn’t require us to redefine terns like “lying”. It was a lie. And that’s fine. You are entitled to follow any rules you like. You just can’t expect others to follow them. And if your purpose, like mine is, is to accurately perceive situations for the purpose of giving advice or bettering yourself, the only thing that matters is what other people are actually doing. If they are dishonest, you must deal with that. Your personal preferences, pet peeves and rules are irrelevant. Your naïve, moral outrage, even if sincere, is irrelevant. – DMN
No, I didn’t say it’s okay. Where did I say that? But lying to a spouse typically has more consequences than lying to a stranger. Neither are acceptable, despite your attempts to brand them “socially appropriate.” What I was saying, as I did with the OP, is that someone who asks a question oblivious to the cues that would render it socially inappropriate is more likely to receive an answer that is untrue. Doesn’t justify it, doesn’t magically make the lie not violate centuries of moral code that govern how people in a collective society treat each other, but statistically makes it more likely to happen. As a woman, however, I will entertain a “this guy sets off all my intuitive safety alarms where the thought that he might chop me into bits does enter my mind unbidden” exception. – Paula
Discuss….
(This weather has my joints acting up. That’s why I’m not writing much. That and, well, I’m kinda spent. )
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Neither are acceptable, despite your attempts to brand them “socially appropriate.”
It doesn’t matter what I think is acceptable. It doesn’t matter what you think is acceptable. It doesn’t matter what centuries of moral code thinks is acceptable. I don’t know how many different ways to say it. You are preaching to yourself. People will do what they do. And, YOUR job (for the purpose of this blog) is to understand what they are doing, to grasp motivations when it’s helpful and help others do the same. Otherwise, your comments are as useful and interesting as others judging you, for example, for having multiple sex partners. It doesn’tt matter to the analysis what you think is or is not acceptable, or what “you would do.” It only matters what people actually do (and why.) Again. Not Paula. Not me. Others.
My only point about social rules is that there is a range of objective normal and if you’re not in the range (which you are not) then you are not going to perceive siituations accurately (which you don’t.) That is the thrust of my comment.
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Totally agree. Everyone here can make their own judgements about how to handle someone that puts you on the spot about your feelings. But I also would venture to say that most people, whether they agree with your actions or not, understand WHY you do what you do.
The subject of yesterday’s post was vague. He didn’t call. He probably didn’t even know what he wanted. Maybe he should have been honest, but he wasn’t. I don’t think that anyone that responded to that post was confused about the fact that he lost interest in the OP. Trying to justify or demonize his behavior gets us nowhere. It is what it is.
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I wasn’t trying to either justify or demonize his behavior. Between him and the OP, I had more problems with her behavior in putting him on the spot, and I thought an “I don’t know” response was admirable under the circumstances.
Basically, he was in a position where many guys would lie, and he gave an answer that had the ring of truth (whether it was actually truthful, we’ll never know). Assuming he gave a truthful answer to an awkward question, admitting ambivalence in a situation where many men would try to deny it should be rewarded, not demonized, or treated as “socially inappropriate” or “weird.”
He admitted ambivalence before the Fade, rather than letting the Fade indicate his ambivalence. So she shouldn’t have been too surprised that she didn’t hear back from him, compared to the women writing in who say things like “But he said THIS!” “We really CONNECTED.” and “Why did he tell me that if he didn’t mean it?”
I get it. I understand that people lie. But understanding it doesn’t mean tolerating it or considering it “normal” behavior.
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Again, I completely agree with you, Paula. You understand his motives…and hers for that matter. It’s not the way you think the situation should have been handled on either side, but you get it. You can walk away understanding why someone would act that way and not let it ruin your day because you might realize you don’t want them in your life anyway. That’s the important lesson, I think. Some people can not come to that conclusion.
I don’t believe that it is acceptable to lie to your date OR mate. I actually think it is very unhealthy. Giving a vague answer to a very confrontational question on a first date with someone you barely know and have no desire to see again is one thing. Being untruthful to your partner with whom trust is possibly the most important thing is a totally different situation.
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I agree with everything you say, DMN, except that I don’t think lying is in the range of objective normal. That hasn’t been my experience in my life, either myself, or with the others who have been part of my life. The number of people I have ushered out of my life due to lying is a handful of the people I’ve met in my lifetime, and I’m pretty rigid about doing that. Some may have not be caught yet, certainly, and others have not yet earned a place in my life anyway, so if they lie, I don’t have to get rid of them so much as not permit them further advancement, but even still, it’s a very small percentage: not “everybody lies (to their dates/mates).”
If one person reads this and goes, “hey, I’m guilty of that, and I don’t like it when it happens to me, so maybe I won’t do that the next time I’m dealing with a romantic partner/sex partner/first date,” then I’m not preaching to myself. And if my code works to keep people with values I don’t share out of my life in the first place, which I believe that it does, then I’m a happier, more content person for maintaining my standards.
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The only times I have ever really lied is to protect mine and someone else’s privacy. For example, someone asks you if a person uses drugs. It’s none of their business, and if you answer with, “I can’t answer that,” or “you should ask them,” you may as well be saying “yes.” So, to protect their privacy, you just say “no,” and yes, I am aware that I can counter with, “Why do you want to know?” but it’s not in my nature to answer a question with a question so a lie is easier and better, in my opinion. I do believe there are times when a lie is appropriate, and I am well aware that it goes against the tenets of Christianity, but there are some people who just have to be lied to.
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dimplz what constitutes having to lie to a grown azz person…..?????
This is one of the biggest problems I see in this society…we tend to cater to, coddle, and baby people instead of giving them tough love and making them accountable and responsible….it’s no wonder why so many people act like children and teenagers….we treat each other like kids and enable childish behavior all the time.
To me lying to someone because u feel they can’t handle the truth (unless they are bipolar or, suffer from depression or their suicidal and/or have a serious real mental health disorder I see no justifiable reason to ever feel like you have to lie to a person.
I’ve read this several times that the reality is the lies we tell most times are more to protect ourselves from the backlash of a possible negative reaction than sparing the other persons feelings.
I believe there is a lot of truth to this……..we don’t want to deal with any possible negative reactions from the other person or have to suffer any possible consequences from telling the truth about how we really feel and this is also a fear that many people have of not knowing how a person will react to the cold hard truth so we lie.
Honestly though some of the things we lie about are just stupid…..for example my girlfriend taking numbers from and giving her number to guys she knew damn well she wasn’t the least bit attracted to.
My thinking was, this man doesn’t know me and I don’t know him…..so if he’s pursuing me and I’m not interested why would I act like I was and take his number knowing he will be expecting my call or give him my number and play the Roger Dodger game with him so I dont’ have to talk to him???
#1 – I don’t ever have to see this person again if I choose not to. So what is there to lose by telling someone “no I’m not interested” or even “no I’m sorry I’m not attracted to you.”
#2 – it’s a total waste of my time and his to “lead him on” and make him think I like him and I share his interest when I don’t.
#3 – The truth is regardless of whether the person is offended or mad or heartbroken or sad at first….they get over it fairly quickly and usually end up respecting you for being honest with them and not playing games, leading them on and wasting their time.
One thing I can say is I’ve never taken a guys number that I didn’t like and wasn’t interested in and never gave my number to a guy I didn’t like and have some interest in….(except when I played the numbers game in college with my girlfriends to see who could get the most numbers) silly and childish I know…but hey it was in college..lol
At any rate, I refuse to baby and handhold grown people…..So I tell people the truth whether it’s good or bad.
Plus the fact that if a person is constantly lied to about something how are they supposed to be aware of their flaws….????
Thats like if someone sucks in bed and nobody ever tells them so their feelings dont’ get hurt…..but nobody thinks about the people who this person will sleep with who have to suffer….
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Well, I just wrote about it above. If it’s no one’s business, I will lie to them to protect mine or someone else’s privacy. It doesn’t have to do with them; it has to do with me. If someone asked you if your friend had an abortion or used drugs, you would tell them the truth, even though it’s none of their business? This isn’t about coddling or babying. It’s about protection.
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Dimplz:
Gotta point out that lying, according to the Ten Commandments, is not cool. “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.” Pretty black and white I think. However, you admit that you would, under certain circumstances, lie. I think one could argue that what you are practicing here is moral relativism.
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I acknowledge that it’s wrong. I said I was a Christian, not perfect.
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That Commandment is against perjury, not all lying. The per-Christian Romans had a similar prohibition; the word for “testify” even comes from their practice of castrating those found guilty of perjury.
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Tell that to my Catholic grandma. Growing up all I heard was every lie you tell brings you one step closer to hell. Not a lot of ambiguity or nuance there!
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I would say “whyever would you ask me that question?” along with a raised eyebrow look that made it very clear that they had transgressed.
I haven’t had an abortion, which is the truth, so I’m not going to say I have; but if I had had an abortion, but chose not to talk about it, saying “no, I haven’t” accomplishes nothing but lending shame to a decision that I believe is an individual’s right to make. Whether I’ve used drugs is never something I’d answer on a public forum or tell certain individuals, and anyone who can’t accept that has no business asking the question.
I refuse to accept that the only tool we have to combat personal privacy and nosy busybodies is to give in and tell them the answer, whether truthful or untruthful. It goes back to the original post: some questions have no business being asked.
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You’re late to the party. I’ve already resolved how to handle these issues. Appreciate your input though.
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Great. So now it’s “socially unacceptable” to ask the questions you need answered to make decisions based on actual information rather than assumptions, but it is completely “socially acceptable” to lie. What a ridiculous distortion of values we’re dealing with here!
I think “socially unacceptable questions” are the ones that ask about personal information that’s none of the business of the person asking.
To ask questions to the person you’re dating about his/her interaction with you isn’t “socially unacceptable”. The fact that the person may not want to tell you what he’s thinking doesn’t mean that you don’t need to know, or that the knowledge won’t affect your decision making. Often, information is withheld exactly because the person wants to avoid the decisions you would make if you had all the relevent information, or your reaction if you knew what was actually going on.
“Is this a one time thing” is a neutral question. What makes the person on the receiving end uncomfortable is the answer. If the answer is “no – I’d like to see you again” I don’t think the person answering would be uncomfortable. So the problem is actually not with the question at all.
DMN says “…the only thing that matters is what other people are actually doing. If they are dishonest, you must deal with that. Your personal preferences, pet peeves and rules are irrelevant. Your naïve, moral outrage, even if sincere, is irrelevant”
Yes, DMN – this is the way things are. But the results of this behaviour is a dating scene full of confusion, mistrust, animosity, resentment and defensiveness. Are you saying that people like me, or people like Paula (excuse me, Paula, if I’m misrepresenting your position) who clearly see the harm caused by “what people are actually doing” shouldn’t try to have others see it too??
If enough people DO see that the constant social evasiveness and misdirection causes more harm than good, and resolve to change that behavior, then ya know what DMN? Honesty will become “what people are actually doing”. Then we’ll have a dating pool filled with people who mean what they say and say what they mean. No more need for wondering, analyzing, confusion…we could actually just talk to each other directly and understand what’s going on. Like rational people. (Then Moxie’s answer to many of the posters could be “why don’t you ask him/her?”. I guess that wouldn’t be much fun)
For those of you who think that “fading” is better for the other person than saying goodbye and good luck: thanks for your concern, it’s appreciated. However, you are being counterproductive in your approach, since your desire to be kind is best served by being direct. Now you know.
If you’re one of those people who “fade”, or lie, not to spare the other person’s feelings, but to avoid telling a truth that might lead to discomfort for yourself, please refrain from dating until you grow a pair (balls, boobs, whatever).
If you’re one of these people who falls apart at being told directly that someone isn’t interested in pursuing a relationship with you, then please work on your insecurities before entering the dating world. You won’t be the right fit for everyone, so get over it. Having so many people feel that it’s okay to lie to accommodate you makes it harder on the rest of us, who can take the truth, and appreciate it.
If your reason for being indirect and evasive is in order to keep people on your list of options for either free entertainment or sex without commitment or avoiding a lonely weekend, please learn to treat people with more respect. Other people aren’t yours to use for your own ends, and to deliberately lie in order to keep ‘em where you want ‘em until you’re done with them is simply wrong.
And if you’re too confused for your own good, please take a break form dating to figure yourself out. Make friends. Talk to family. Become emotionally healthy, rather than draw others into your chaos and confusion. But whatever you do – speak the truth. Even if it’s “I don’t know”
Yea, yeah…I know some of you are going to say this sounds like a rant. But in reality, I’ve been lucky: I speak truth and only deal with people who do the same, so I have very, very few relationship horror stories. Now that I’m actively looking for a LTR for the first time in my life, I’m finding the process to be a fascinating (and fun) sociology experiment. Unnecessarily complicated, but a great way to learn about myself and others. What a ride!
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Yes, I am saying that your preaching here is as pointless as it is uninteresting. As proof, I submit that if hundreds of years of moral codes instructing us not to lie is not convincing, I doubt the comments of anonymous internet commenters is going to count for much. And, as an aside, even if by some chance you were to reach a receptive audience here, your oversimplified, “black and white” views on lying are not persuasive. Unfortunately, it is more complicated question than whether feelings get hurtm. And, your moral outrage is interfering with your ability to perceive reality. Though, as I said, you did grasp my point, which is that your opinion doesn’t matter.
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Yes, I get your point, but obviously mine goes right over your head. I don’t believe in “moral codes”. And I’m certainly not outraged when people lie: I’m against lying because it causes confusion, misunderstanding, and a break down in effective communication.
If you think lying doesn’t cause these things, make your case.
If you think lying does cause these things, but that these things are actually beneficial to dating and relationships, again – make your case.
Being that I welcome and appreciate differing points of view and I’m also able to refute or accept specific arguments based on their merits, I am actually capable of learning something.
But if your argument is “since people have been lying forever, let’s just keep doing it”, I find it ironic that you call me simplistic!
Sure: despite hundreds of years of “moral code”, people still lie. Just as despite billions of dollars spent on the weight loss products, obesity is still on the rise. Telling the truth is much better for us in the long run, just as diet and exercise is, but hey…both are hard. So let’s not do it.
“Just do what we’ve always done cuz it’s easier” sure sounds like pretty low standards of behavior, to me.
There are so many things (supression of womens’ rights. child labor, exploitation of different races and classes) that were done for centuries, until we began to realize how much harm it does. And then we stopped. But we haven’t, really have we? There are plenty of places where child labor sitll goes on, as well as exploitation. So I guess that means we can’t stop. So there’s really no point in us trying to end this sort of thing, right DMN? That just the way things are done.
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Its more nuanced because not all lying causes harm. To the extent it does cause harm, all adults are aware of that. They choose to do it anyway sometimes because the benefits to themselves outweigh the harm. So telling people they shouldn’t harm you results in a shrug. Either pass a law against lying and send them to jail or convince them that they are not benefiting from the lie. Your rants do neither.
Whack.
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Again – way over your head.
If by “ALL” you mean every single lie ever told, then sure…you’re right.
When I say “lying”, I mean as a pattern of behaviour. And as a pattern of behaviour it’s harmful.
I am not saying the people shouldn’t lie in order to avoid harming ME.
I’m saying that if the objective is to form strong, positive relationships, lying gets in the way of that – it makes achieving that more difficult for the liar, and for everyone else.
The relationships they think the lies helped them create are precarious. And the fact that so many people are dating with the idea that the lies are necessary and acceptable, all of us end up mistrustful of each other and overly defensive. THAT’S what I mean by harm.
Of course I don’t advocate making lying a crime. I am following your much more reasonable suggestion: trying to convince people that they are not benefitting by lying. How is that a rant? I could just as well say that you’re ranting in favor of lying – but I wouldn’t make such a ridiculous argument.
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Well, hey, this anonymous internet commenter (or set of them, I won’t take all the credit) has already done some good here: before this debate, Dimplz was going to lie to protect someone’s privacy, even though it violates the tenets of her faith. This debate prompted her to do some research about Catholic principles and resolve that in the future, she’s going to remain silent rather than lie.
Score one for truth!
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I love how you think you know that everyone you’ve dealt with has only spoken the truth.
How have you deluded yourself into thinking that you have some ability to know that no one has ever lied to you?
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LOL!
Here’s the thing: Like attracts like. This works in godd ways and bad.
I may not say everything I think, but what I DO say, I mean (I also ascribe to the old adage “if youcan’t say anything good. say nothing at all”)
This is something that people realize soon after meeting me. They realize that I won’t say nice things to make them feel good, I won’t pay empty compliments, and when asked a direct question, I will tell the truth even if it hurts me or them.
People who don’t like this get upset. We don’t become friends.
So my friends tend to be people who feel the same way about this. When people like us meet each other, it’s actually a relief. Because we know that we can be ourselves. We can tell each other the truth without the other person getting upset, over-reacting, or second-guessing us. It makes dating, friendship…everything… much easier, and drama free.
And you know what I’ve found out? Guys actually do NOT like to lie! They do it because they think they have to. The real intimacy, closeness, friendship and trust that a guy feels with me when they realize that they can tell me the truth – that I expect men to be men, that I do not blame them for it, I understand why they do what they do and that they actually have the right to do what they want – they become my friends for life, whether we date or not.
So yes- I can say that the people I deal with don’t lie to me. They know that when I ask a question, whether it’s about the fit of my jeans or whether they like a gift I bought them or the dinner I cooked…I ask because I want the information to guide me for the next time I go shopping, or the next time I plan a menu (or the next time I’m tempted by a molten chocolate cake). The answer has to be true, and it has to be accurate. Or they do it as revenge for the time I told them no, as a matter of fact I did not like the flowers they got me, since I don’t like getting flowers in general – I prefer a potted plant, but I thought found the gesture very, very thoughtful.
That’s another thing about the truth: if you tell it often enough, you WILL get it back
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Its unnecessarily complicated because the most people lie and you don’t understand why. If you understood and accepted that a certain level of dishonesty is to be excepted it would be less complicated. You’re talking as though the people being lied to are destined to take a apassive role in their dating experiences. If they choose to stick around and be treated an option that’s on them as much as the pperson who isn’t being totally honest.
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I understand very well why most people lie. That doesn’t mean that lying doesn’t complicate their lives.
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I usually relied upon the “it’s not you, it’s me” speech when I met someone unsuitable. The fact is that most times, it wasn’t me (it was, once. I found myself dating a nice man, but I was totally a basketcase at the time). It was them. More specifically, i didn’t want to date them. It is my experience that telling people that particular truth results in anger and unpleasantness that I’d prefer to avoid. So, i’d take full responsibliity, claim fuckwittedness or something, and make it clear that we wouldn’t be going on anymore dates.
If that makes me dishonest, so be it.
I don’t see any reason for getting into the nitty gritty details of why I’m not attracted to a guy. I’m just not, and I’m going to let him go as easily (for both of us) as possible. I experienced enough ugly scenes that I believe that there often is no place for truth when you’re trying to say no to someone who very well could be crazy.
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I generally see no reason to lie outside of privacy issues and/or client/attorney (or doctor/patient) privilege.
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Then you’re either a shut in or very socially awkward. You’re saying, outsideof professional reasons, you never lie? Stop it. That’s not only improbable but virtually impossible.
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I very much are neither of those options. I just happen to be an honest person. I don’t see why that is so hard to believe. I totally disagree with the concept that everyone lies frequently. Did I lie as a kid? Sure. But I also got punished by my parents when I did. This taught me that telling a lie was not acceptable.
I believe if you think it is acceptable to lie frequently, then it is you that are likely the socially awkward one.
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Count me in with chuckrock and maargen.
People act like not lying is like a form of dating Aspergers or a Jim Carrey movie. It doesn’t mean telling someone every single thing that comes into their head, or even the primary most important thing. If you don’t want to tell someone the truth? Don’t. Just don’t tell them something that isn’t the truth.
Sure, it may not matter in the overall scheme of things whether someone tells me I look nice in this shirt when it’s an unflattering color that makes me look sallow and fat. You don’t have to tell me I look nice in this shirt. Tell me that you like my shoes or my iPad, or ask me what I did today.
But when it comes to your feelings, and I’m expecting you to reveal what they are so I can proceed accordingly, it does damage when you lie about them. It destroys my ability to trust you, and may affect my ability to trust other people with whom I might become romantically and/or sexually involved. It may cause me to make a life-altering decision that I might not otherwise make had I had correct information. It may hurt my self-esteem, ruin my day, or cause me to sink into a pretty serious depression. Or, it may do nothing, but you can’t be confident that it’s not going to harm me in some way.
And it’s rarely necessary (I do recognize chuckrock’s professional exceptions, as I must, and also if you’re subjecting yourself to bodily harm — I’m going to tell a rapist or potential murderer anything he needs to hear to keep from harming me further).
But if you’re worrying about being rude, believe me, a lie 99% of the time is going to be more rude than anything else you could say.
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I’m kind of surprised at the force of some of responses here. There isn’t a single person here or anywhere that tells the point blank and blunt truth all the time. And even though a few of you sound like you’ve stepped onto the pulpit next to Cotton Mather and Johnathan Edwards, I seriously doubt that you lives can match the purity of your comments.
When it comes to relationships I’m more concerned about living the spirit of the truth, rather than the literal letter of truth if you know what I mean. People can be entirely factually and always tell the truth in that matter, but still be lying in a deeper sense.
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Sorry, but I love the Cotton Mather reference! Don’t see that name thrown around too often, especially on a love advice blog. If you lie, you are a witch and will burn like a witch!
What about people who lie but don’t even know they are lying? As a simple example, you are colorblind. You believe that a pumpkin is green. So you tell someone that a pumpkin is green. However, for those who view color, the pumpkin is obviously orange. But the colorblind person really BELIEVES it is green. So does that make the colorblind person a liar? What if he just understands the word “green” means “orange.” What then?
My point? Nothing more than lies and truth are a lot more complex than people like to think. Perception and reality are not always the same thing.
Just a thought…
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Well, lying is defined as telling someone something with the intent of deceiving them, which in this case, it has to do with a disability to see color accurately, and it wouldn’t apply. You are telling what you believe to be the truth.
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Why does telling the truth have to be “brutal”?
And while I appreciate the Cotton Mather reference as well, it seems to imply some reference to morality or something, and I just don’t see the relevance.
I feel about lying the same way I feel about smoking: it’s harmful to the people doing it, it’s harmful to the people around them, and the less of it there is the better.
What about that has anything to do with “morality”??
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It doesn’t have to be brutal. I suppose I could have left that word out.
The tone of the long comment you made towards the beginning, and few other people’s comments on here sounded pretty moralistic. Hence the reference to Mather – which I will say was someone’s name I never thought I’d drop on a dating site. But it just seemed to fit somehow.
Anyway, your comment above about “a pattern of behavior” makes sense to me. I agree that anyone with a pattern of lying and deceiving their partner is probably trouble.
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Today on Splitting Hairs: Everyone who says they never tell a lie is lying, and it has nothing to do with Jim Carrey or Asperger’s.
Common lies:
1. Can I talk to you for a sec? It will only take a minute.
2. I told you 10 times already.
3. If that’s [insert name] tell her I’m not here/left already.
4. Well, I said I wouldn’t say anything, but…
5. I am starving!
6. I love [insert activity, song, event]
7. I haven’t seen you in forever!
8. I miss you too!
9. I’m on my way.
and the biggest one…
10. I would never do that!
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There is a difference between an actual lie (” I did not have sexual relations with that woman”) and colorful hyperbole (“I’m so hungry I could eat a horse”) or tact (“I think that dress will look more flattering on you” vs. “You look fat in that”). With the exception of that first statement, none of these are lies!
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They are all lies, because you know it’s not true, but you say it anyway.
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Really? I’m so hungry I could eat a horse is a lie? I think a statement like this is so patently absurd nobody could ever truly believe that someone was serious.
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So for something to be a lie, the other person has to believe it or it has to be believable? That’s not the definition. A lie is defined as such –noun
1.
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2.
something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3.
an inaccurate or false statement.
That would fall under #3. The fact that it’s believable doesn’t come into it.
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Fine, dimplz…you’re right: first rule of debate: define you’re terms.
So for the sake of the discussion, I am using lying to mean “a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive”
Not figures of speech that people use all the time. I’m very sorry if you were confused about that.
Also, I do mean lying as a pattern of behaviour, not every once in a blue moon in an extreme situation.
As an example: at the end of a date a guy says “I’ll call you”
If time goes by and he doesn’t call because he met someone else, got busy or changed his mind, he wasn’t lying.
If he knew at the time he said it that he would not call, then he was lying.
Get it?
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“something intended or serving to convey a false impression”
“I’m so hungry I could eat a horse” is neither intended to convey a false impression, nor serving to convey a false impression, even in countries where you might find horse meat on the menu.
The same is true about most of the other commonly used exaggerated expressions which unless you’re talking to someone without a passing familiarity of English, would not serve to convey a false impression. In fact, they convey exactly what they’re meant to — a level of maximum extreme intensity expressed by the impossibility of the execution of the statement.
Get real.
[I don't, however, tend to say things like "I miss you too," or "I'm on my way," or "the check's in the mail," unless I do miss the person, I have left, or I have put the check in the mailbox, because if someone is counting on me or a check to arrive at a particular time, then it will be to their detriment if I or or the check doesn't arrive. And if they think I miss them and I don't, then they may think my feelings are stronger for them than they are.]
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The expression is still inaccurate, so your intention matters not.
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Wrong.
A statement doesn’t have to meet definition 3 if it meets definitions 1 and 2, which do require intent to deceive.
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If the definition fits, then it’s applicable. In this case, it fits. It’s inaccurate. I’m amazed at the fact that I can acknowledge I’m doing something wrong, and I have yet to see you acknowledge anything of the sort in your comments. Which is very impressive, given that you comment a lot and have long comments to boot. Do you really think you’re never wrong, or are you just silent when you are?
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I’m happy to admit something when I’m wrong, but the reason there are alternative definitions in the dictionary is that any one of them can apply to the meaning of a particular word. You’re insisting on the one that doesn’t apply and disregarding the two that do.
Here’s an example that everyone should be able to understand:
RAPE
1.
the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2.
any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
3.
statutory rape. [sexual intercourse by an adult with a person below a statutorily designated age.]
A guy who is my age (well over the age of consent, as am I) forces me to have sexual intercourse with him. That violates definition 1 and 2, but does not violate definition 3. According to you, I wasn’t raped, because it didn’t satisfy definition 3.
Absolutely preposterous, and I’m glad even the worst prosecutor would know the difference.
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Guess what? It appears that almost everyone lies–DAILY.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1213171/Men-lie-times-day-twice-women-study-finds.html
Men tell twice as many lies as women, it emerged yesterday. Researchers found they tell six fibs a day on average to their partner, boss and work colleagues, but women come out with just three.
The study of 2,000 Britons also revealed that the most common lie told by both sexes: “Nothing’s wrong, I’m fine.”
Even you non-liars lie.
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I don’t get it…was anyone here saying that lying isn’t common?
Overeating is common too – everybody does it. I guess there’s no point in ever discussing the hazards of this, or trying to get people to do it less often? And since it is so common, you feel that there can’t be people who don’t overeat, or who do their best on a conscious level to avoid overeating?
About the study: I find it interesting that men tell twice as many lies as women, in view of the fact that women talk three times as much as men.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-419040/Women-talk-times-men-says-study.html
So men don’t say much, and what they do say you can’t trust. Dunno why I find that funny.
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