Extra-Curricular Intimacy

August 10th, 2011

Dating, Intimacy, Latests Posts, Snooping

Name: Single and Confused |  | Location: San Jose , CA |Question: Hi Moxie,

I am recently dating this very wonderful man. He’s a single father with one child in his early 40s, I’m in my early 30s. Single, never been married and no kids. My issue is, he tells me everyday how dearly he loves me and will not want to be away from me. I soon come to find out that he’s been exchanging flirtatious messages with his friend (who I have met) and she is married. I don’t know how to feel/react since I got the information through secretly checking his phone. CRAP!

BF’s done pretty well for himself, pays alimony to the ex-wife and sends his child to private school. He’s been divorced for over 5 years now and we have been dating for 8 months. During his downtime post divorce, he kept himself busy by being active in his son’s school (coaching, PTA, etc). Obviously, he’s met and kept a few friends (just a few stayed on his side) who’s known him since he was married. One of them is Mrs. Z. Mrs. Z is married, has one child who is very good friends with his son and she is, excuse my language.. yes..smoking hot. Mr. and Mrs. Z would go on summer trips with BF and son and the most recent one was this month, for a weekend. Sadly, I was not invited. We had an argument as to why I did not get invited, when I have already met and have been hanging out with him and his son. It is not like it will be an awkward situation since he himself told me that his son genuinely likes me. Long story short, it became a huge argument and I knew I had to stop because there is no way that the plans will change.  During the trip he was sending me text messages, calling, letting me know that he misses me terribly. Upon his return, the first thing he said was that I will now ALWAYS be invited to out of town trips with his son and I have the right to first refusal. It made me feel better. It was not like I sulked around when they were gone.

I have a very good set of friends and I believe I’m pretty level headed when it comes to certain things so I kept myself busy.  I let it go and was just glad to know that he missed me and he looks forward to trips with me included.

Now, this is my mistake. I found through his phone (we both share our passwords) that Mrs. Z and Mr. Z have some marital issues. In fact, Mr. Z was actually not even planning on joining the summer trip, until the last minute. To which my BF’s reaction over text was “HUH???” In the series of text messages between BF and Mrs. Z, my boyfriend would always say “I hope he is not mad at me, since I do not want any drama in my life.” He has mentioned me to her a few times; however, there was an instance when they went out to play golf and she had asked if he told me about it. He said no (he told me he was meeting her for drinks only) and she said she did not tell her husband either. A week before their trip, she changed her profile picture in a social networking site to show her smoking hot body (back view showing her bikini) and he sent a text message to her saying,  “I saw the profile pic, you are so HOT! One week to the trip!”

At this point, I know I should have stopped reading the texts. I don’t know what to do. They are still friends and there’s going to be a time in the future when all of us will be hanging out together. They went out to drinks recently and she sent him a text message saying something like, “Baby, I am so happy that you joined me for drinks.” To which he responded, “Thank you for inviting me :).” Again, a few messages from her venting about her husband and BF would say I hope it’s not about me.

I feel like something had happened to them previously (pre-ME) and perhaps the flirting continues when it can. I have seen her flirt with other men when all of us would hang out. It’s just now dawning on me, since I thought it was kind of inappropriate at that time, but who was I to say something. I gave her the benefit of the doubt, knowing she’s married and they have been friends before he started dating me. What should I do? I love him. I can’t imagine not being with him. Although I know, I could not make him choose friends over me, it just does not seem mature and logical. Please help? Am I missing something or overreacting?
xo
Single and confused Thanks. |Age: 34

 

BF’s done pretty well for himself,

Question: If the “BF” didn’t do so well for himself, would you even be questioning what to do?

We had an argument as to why I did not get invited, when I have already met and have been hanging out with him and his son. It is not like it will be an awkward situation since he himself told me that his son genuinely likes me. Long story short, it became a huge argument and I knew I had to stop because there is no way that the plans will change.

You weren’t invited because he – your boyfriend – didn’t want you there.

There’s obviously something going on between these two. Could be  casual flirtation, could be a full blown affair. Whatever it is, it’s being done behind your back. And, in some cases, right under your nose.Please share with us all the ways this man is “wonderful” as I’m not getting that impression.

Right now you’re stuck between copping to snooping and staying in a duplicitous relationships. And yet, oddly, it sounds like you’d rather stay in the relationship than reveal the fact that you snooped.

You have  a choice. You can live your life always checking up on him and monitoring both his and her social networking activity. Or you could tell him what you found and get answers. Yes, you could lose him. But, really, what is there to lose? Your “BF” is fostering some kind of extra-curricular relationship with a woman who is married. A woman who is the mother of one of his son’s friends. So, not only is he willing to jeopardize his relationship with you, but her relationship with her husband and his relationship with his son.

I will ask you again what exactly you are clinging to so desperately? Because this guy sounds like a douche who trips over himself because a hot woman is paying him attention.

At the very least, there’s a level of intimacy between these two. Or, at least, she’s letting him think there is. It’s quite possible she’s just turning to him during this down turn in her marriage. You could be right in that she’s just looking for attention. Maybe absolutely nothing has gone on that crosses the line. The problem here, for me, is the presumed intimacy and dependance. Could be that he’s being sucked in to her game. Maybe he’s her air bag for when her relationship eventually ends. I don’t know. She’s leaning on him and they’re spending time together without their respective partners. That’s a disaster waiting to happen. That familiarity, the use of “Baby,” the emotional support…that’s supposed to be for you. That he’s giving that to someone else…that’s a sign that there’s possible a breakdown in the relationship he has with you.

You’re doing what so many of us do. You’re listening to his words and ignoring his actions because you don’t want to face the truth. That’s pretty much all this man seems to provide for you. Words and empty promises. You have evidence that he has some form of interest in someone else. Granted it was fruit of the poisonous tree, so you aren’t without your own issues and blemishes. But you’re not leading this man to believe something that might not be true. But your relationship is in peril. Question is do you try to save it by having an honest conversation or do you walk? If you’re not willing to have that conversation, then I have to question your own commitment to the relationship.

You appear to have what I call a relationship ” in theory.” It looks like a relationship. You do relationship-y things. But the true emotional commitment seems to be lacking. On both ends.

You have to speak up and say something to him. But given the other ties between them, meaning their kids, I doubt he’s going to be able to cut this woman off cold turkey. This woman is always going to be in the picture.

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67 Responses to “Extra-Curricular Intimacy”

  1. Trouble Says:

    So, now, I’m scrutinizing my own actions in light of the post above, and wondering how my boyfriend (who doesn’t have a jealous bone in his body) would perceive them. Because I have a flirty facebook friend that I used to date who still sends me (unsolicited) messages about how hot I am. I have no intention of ever entering into a sexual/physical relationship with him again, no matter how many times he tells me that, but I think he keeps throwing the bait out there in hopes that I will. He also messages me with, “Sup babe” every time I go on facebook and he’s there. I like the guy, he was there for me in a rather difficult phase of my life, so I just ignore his flirty overtures and deal with him as a friend.

    However, based upon the standards in the post above, I suspect I’d look pretty guilty, even though I’m not.

    In this case, rather than admitting to snooping, I think that if I were the OP, I’d just ask: “What’s up between the two of you? There is a vibe there that makes me wonder if you two are more than friends.”

    You don’t have any real tangible evidence of wrongdoing, but more of a suspicion of wrongdoing. I don’t think I’d acknowledge snooping, just ask point blank where things stand with her. If you acknowledge snooping, the relationship is essentially over. If you share passwords, it’s likely because he believes he has nothing to hide, perhaps because he thinks he isn’t doing anything wrong.

    And, maybe he isn’t. You won’t know, however, if you don’t talk to him. If he acts evasive, etc., then I’d cut ties with him immediately. However, considering the openness in your relationship (shared passwords, etc.), the odds are good that he might just tell you that they used to have a flirty relationship that filled in the gaps in the holes in their mutual lives, but now that hole is fillled by you.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 0

    • Amy Says:

      Trouble – what an honest answer. Very insightful. Made me remember that I, too, have an old more-than-a-friend who still approaches me that way as well, in the occasional times we talk. I just deflect and interact as friends, as we are both married now and that was a long time ago.
      I used to read your blog and really enjoyed it. Glad things are going well for you.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

    • chuckrock Says:

      I think this advice is better than Moxie’s. Many people do harmless flirting all the time and they don’t even conceive that their significant other might not like it. I would say there is no way he gives you access to his password if he even remotely thinks he is doing something wrong.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

    • pistola Says:

      I think the difference, Trouble, is that (I’m guessing) you don’t meet this guy for drinks, or golf, or whatever, and participate in not telling your partner about it.

      OP, did you snoop because you already suspected something? You’re well within your rights to say something like, “I’ve noticed that Mrs. Z flirts with other men when we’re all out together and I’ve also noticed that you seem to be one of the ones she does that with. That makes me feel pretty uncomfortable and I would like to hear your thoughts about it.”

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

    • Divorced Joe Says:

      I have a married female friend with whom I’ve had a flirtation relationship since we were 15. The thing is, I never hid it from my then-wife and it’s never crossed any boundaries which would make me embarassed to tell anyone. We’ve also never invited each other anywhere, let alone without our spouses invited. That’s where the OPs boyfriend crosses a pretty clear line; you don’t go places alone with married members of the opposite sex and without your significant other. Quite to the contrary; if your married friend was a genuinely a dear friend, the normal behavior would be to introduce her to the new love of your life.

      Do note, however, than a single man or woman with children may want to go on trips and/or activities with just them. I think this is healthy and that even married people, especially men, should take their children on activities without their spouse.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

      • Divorced Joe Says:

        To clarify; “you avoid going to places alone with married members of the opposite sex with whom you have anything more than a platonic relationship.” Even then, you have to be careful–not fanatical, but careful.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          IMHO, you should always invite your mate (or both mates, if applicable) for any mixed-company plans; if they decline but don’t object to you going alone, that’s fine. They should trust you enough to do that when appropriate. If not, well, there are deeper issues you need to work on with your mate rather than spending time with someone else.

          If either party feels the need to lie to their mate about this, that is almost always a sign neither should be doing it.

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          • Divorced Joe Says:

            I agree; I was thinking about going out for lunch with work mates of mixed company and trying to qualify that in.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    • Really Rosie Says:

      Trouble, the OP can ask her BF for a straight answer but, if he has something to hide (and in my opinion he does) he will deny it till the day he dies. I hate generalities but this is one that seems to be more true than not. Even caught red-handed many men will lie through their teeth and deny anything untoward is going on. My ex took female friends to a neighboring city, a town he went to college in for a whopping one year, yet he calls it his “second home” Yes they shared a hotel room because it was cheaper, yes they slept in the same bed but nothing happened because she is just a “friend”, etc. I found text flirtations/arguments/admissions between him and more than one one woman. I finally asked him to give up the latest one and he said he would not give up his friend and I shouldn’t ask him to do so. A month later a PI got me video of them making out in his vehicle. He STILL denied anything was going on, and did so for months to his friends and family, until the point where she moved in with him (I’d kicked him out). Today is my 2 year divorce anniversary. :) OP, if you ask him and he denies and especially if he gets angry that you accused him of anything, he’s guilty as sin.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “if you ask him and he denies and especially if he gets angry that you accused him of anything, he’s guilty as sin.” Note that denial and anger are also the usual reaction of someone who is falsely accused, so that doesn’t tell you anything. The difference comes when you accept their denial (regardless of what you think of it): an innocent person will try to keep convincing you of their innocence but a guilty person will be relieved that their lie worked and want to change the subject.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

      • chillybeans Says:

        Have to agree with Rosie on this one. When I confronted my (now ex) husband with evidence of his affair, he denied everything. Then I showed him the call on his phone to her from the night before.
        When he finally admitted to the affair, I asked him if he practiced safe sex.
        He looked me right in the eye and said “Yes I did” and I replied “Really? Then how did she get pregnant?”
        Liar, liar pants on fire.
        Honey, there are much better guys out there-you are young, don’t waste any more time on this two timing creep. Who is dragging his son into this whole mess!
        Mrs. Z is at least a drama queen and troublemaker and if she hasn’t already cheated on Mr. Z (who doesn’t seem terribly aware IMHO) she will soon. Just a question of with whom.
        I think part of the reason that he is even in this pseudo relationship with you is as an excuse to Mr. Z.
        ie,-I’m not having an affair with your wife, I already have a girlfriend….

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 3

  2. Amy Says:

    I don’t see this quite the way Mox does, at least about the vacation weekend.
    First of all – dating a man with a child changes EVERYTHING (at least if he is a good dad) as opposed to a guy without. Presumably the plans for the weekend were made a while ago. They have only been dating for 8 months, so it was some time before that. There are things to consider – I don’t know how old the son is, but I would NOT have had a woman sharing a hotel room with the dad and son. Maybe that is old fashioned, but that is the way I see it. So that might have been a factor as to why she was not included.
    BUT – once he went on the trip, it seems he realized how much he missed her and therefore, upon return, made the proclamation that she’d be invited/included on all future trips. Maybe previously, he was single, and that was the way the trips went, and now that he is with her, it took him one trip going solo to realize how much he wanted her there. Plus he may want to make logistical arrangements for upcoming trips (sleeping arrangements, etc.). So for that piece, there might be more to it than just ‘he didn’t want her there.’

    However – something is definitely ‘off’ between him and this woman. She seems like she is more than a bit of a flirt (based on the bikini pic and the flirting the OP has observed with multiple men). It may be that she is playing the OP’s boyfriend – using him as a listening ear about her woes and getting affirmation. Lots of married people do this – have a little something with chemistry on the side to make them feel attractive. (Not condoning this, just making an observation.)

    It MAY be that when he was single, he was more drawn into the interaction with this woman and now that he is with the OP, he is less interested. His replies to her texts seems somewhat innocuous (except for the ‘you look hot’ one and calling her ‘baby’). He seemed surprised and not particularly happy about the idea of going on the weekend vaca without her husband being there. I tend to think they are not having an affair right now. His response about the drinks “Thanks for inviting me” does not sound like something you would say to someone you were having an affair with. But nonetheless, something isn’t kosher.

    So since she snooped, and she knows that the woman’s marriage is rocky, and she can’t un-know the info she learned, she is going to have a challenge. Either she tells him she snooped (which is risky, as you said) OR she can try to gain information in a more discreet way. I wonder if she could broach a conversation about this woman based on things she has legitimately seen (not through snooping) and get a feel for where things stand (or maybe learn a little history) from her boyfriend. I might do that before I came clean and admitted to looking through the texts.

    She said that the boyfriend lost most of his friends through the divorce. So maybe he doesn’t have many friends, and maybe the son is tight with their boy. There are a lot of unknowns here. I think it is a HUGE stretch to infer that this isn’t a relationship between the OP and the boyfriend. It may be a developing one, or one with flaws, but there seems to be something real and genuine there.

    Also, I felt the line that he has done well for himself, pays child support, does the private school thing serves to add some background and context to her question. it helped me visualize the guy and his friend group – with the weekend trips, the golf, the PTA and coaching involvement, etc. I felt like I got some sense of this guy’s social life. I think it was uncalled for and snarky to infer that if the guy wasn’t successful, she wouldn’t have been as interested.

    I got the sense the OP is trying to figure things out. And the guy may be a louse, for sure. But he also may be at the tail end of a sticky situation, still getting a bit of a thrill from it, but ready to leave it behind and not sure how to do so. I would tread cautiously and see what happens.

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    • Paula Says:

      For all we know, Mrs. Z is the kind of vindictive person that once she realizes she’s not getting the attention she’s used to, will try to create all kinds of drama around it, even dragging the kids into it. He may be saying just enough to keep her happy and still arranging things for their sons to do together, without trying to get roped in further.

      It’s clear she doesn’t have any sense of appropriate boundaries, if she’s trying to invite him along for a trip without her husband and his girlfriend present, and whatever his reaction to that was, it seems to have been enough for Mr. Z to have joined them. I hope for the OP’s sake that it’s not something her boyfriend has been or wants to be involved in, and that he recognizes what a mess she seems to be (at least from the OP’s portrayal, and despite her inherent bias in the situation, we’ve all known people like Mrs. Z.)

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4

  3. A to the F Says:

    This woman is in the wrong every possible way. Invasion of privacy, lack of trust, jealousy, deceit… someone give this guy a heads up so he can cut the crazy out of his life. No one needs someone who snoops their phone.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 27

    • Really Rosie Says:

      If they are sharing passwords then I am not sure the snooping argument is as strong as if they had not. And some women do not stoop to such behavior unless and until they already sense something off and are just gathering proof. Although as I stated above, many men will still deny their behavior in the presence of incontrovertible proof.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “… until they already sense something off and are just gathering proof.” The problem with that is, once you’re suspicious, you will always find the “proof” you’re looking for–whether it’s there or not. For instance, an ex decided I had cheated on her, and the “proof” she found was an email from a woman giving me directions to her house. That woman was my sister, who had moved since the last time I visited. And, yes, to this day I deny cheating on my ex, despite the “presence of incontrovertible proof.”

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          I don’t think its accurate the you will always find evidence of cheating. Possibly, we are hung up on definitions of words.

          It IS accurate that, if you invade someone’s privacy by reading emails, snooping, you’re always going to see a side of them that you didn’t see before. Even the morally righteous have multiple faces for different situations. Seeing a different side of someone you think you know well is troubling. Its the reason snooping is a bad idea.

          However, if you’re going to snoop, you may as well use the information productively. He admitted to lying – about golf – so you know he is up to something. I don’t know why you need to confront him. You already know.

          Too much talking here. Blah blah blah. Doesn’t resolve anything. As the King advises, “a little less conversation, a little more action.”

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

    • A to the F Says:

      It appears there are a lot of women who read this blog and who snoop on their significant others and think there’s nothing wrong with it.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 7

    • A to the F Says:

      This forum is dominated by women who make excuses for other women’s bad behavior. Crazies defending psychos. And that’s why you’re single…

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 12

      • Paula Says:

        Right, and a guy going on weekend trips and secret golf outings with another man’s wife, and telling her how hot she looks is AOK. Or hanging out in swingers forums when he agreed to be exclusive with his girlfriend — that’s just top-notch behavior.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          Sorry, I agree with AF’s sentiment. It’s amazing to me how, whenever one of these stories about snooping gets posted, many of the female commenters gloss over the fact that the woman violated her guy’s privacy. Nobody ever stops to analyze the character of the woman. There’s no question that there’s something off with this relationship. The guy isn’t getting a free pass. But there’s two sides to every story. Why didn’t this guy invite her on the trip? Why is he engaging this other woman when he has one of his own? People are so quick to assume that the woman is innocent and just involved with another toxic guy and poor her. Maybe, sometimes, the woman is the source of some of the problems in the relationship.

          I’m sorry, but rational, stable people don’t snoop through people’s private property. I hate this excuse that because he left his phone lying around or left his lap top open, that the woman is justified is snooping. Now, maybe she’s total stable and was just pushed to do this because of things the man was doing. Or maybe she’s inordinately high maintenance or difficult. I know guys who were honest and devoted to their girlfriends who still had to answer to interrogation like questioning should they decide to go for drinks with friends after work. Sometimes? It’s not all the man’s fault.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 11

          • Paula Says:

            I don’t think people are giving the women a free pass for snooping in either situation. Although people who leave incriminating information open in their browser typically want to be caught, in my experience, and people who give away their passwords typically either think they have nothing to hide, or are comfortable that they might be used. When you either have something to hide or are very particular about your privacy, there are much better ways to guard your information than what these two guys have employed. Again, not a free pass, just potentially some insight into their behavior.

            However, the dynamic of answering OPs questions means that we’re trying to help her resolve her situation as it already stands, and we’re not in a position to tell the guy what to do (because he’s not reading this and didn’t solicit Moxie’s advice). If a guy wrote in, we might tell him to lose the crazy and get rid of the jealous woman who is violating his privacy, but we also might have more insight about the nature of his interactions with these other women and be able to conclude that she’s overreacting to something that’s completely innocent.

            50 lashes with a wet noodle, a Moxie dressdown, or any other way we can devise to beat up the last two posters doesn’t change the guy’s behavior one iota, and in both situations, the OP has frequently been urged to communicate better and try to figure out what is really going on rather than jumping to conclusions and merely acting upon what she found by snooping.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

          • pistola Says:

            “rational, stable people don’t snoop through people’s private property.”

            Once I thought this as well. But then…

            I have three friends who have “snooped” and caught their partners cheating. All three of them are definitely rational and stable people.

            They’re also all men, not women.

            They’re not people who would normally do such a thing. But they got suspicious. They saw things. They had a feeling that didn’t go away and got stronger. Finally they acted upon it and their hunches were right.

            The basic problem is, if you ARE dealing with a liar, it’s a mistake to let them run their game when your gut is saying something is wrong. A liar is not going to tell you the truth, so in order to know it, a person may well have to take things into their own hands. My friends had all already asked their significant others if they were fooling around with someone else and been met with denials and tears and you name it. But that feeling didn’t go away. So they ended up snooping. And they were right, as it turned out.

            Is it good that they snooped? No. Is it good that they got out of relationships with cheaters? Yes. It just isn’t a black or white thing in some cases.

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            • chuckrock Says:

              if your gut is telling you something is amiss, then trust your gut…don’t snoop…easy answer. Your gut is telling this stuff for a reason.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

          • Divorced Joe Says:

            I’m sorry, but rational, stable people don’t snoop through people’s private property.

            By it’s very nature, you surrender some privacy in a relationship. One thing that keeps many people single is an unwillingness to give their privacy up to the extent a truly healthy relationship requires it.

            As for snooping, there are times when it’s not only the intelligent thing to do, but where it would be foolish not to. For example, if you strong reason to suspect your significant other is hiding money, it would be foolish to simply let that go.

            Of course, the problem here is where that line of compelling justification lies. Our instinct is that it lies pretty far out there, but when in an actual situation where you feel your trust is being betrayed, this isn’t so easy.

            Observing this gets complicated because there are controlling people who don’t need any justification to snoop.

            In several recent letters, this conflict has been an issue for me and some others. The snooping seems to go beyond what was justified, but as “A to the F” stated, in those cases many posters justified it out-of-hand.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

            • Paula Says:

              >>By it’s very nature, you surrender some privacy in a relationship. One thing that keeps many people single is an unwillingness to give their privacy up to the extent a truly healthy relationship requires it.

              I think this is a very astute observation. When you invite someone to share your life, you don’t get to exclude all the parts that you’d rather not share because your partner might not like you so much.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

          • Selena Says:

            The people who write here for advice do so because their lover has done something shady. Finding out by snooping is a lesser crime. If you think the snooping is as bad or worse, why not just tell the writer to quit snooping? Tell her, “What you don’t know won’t hurt you.”

            That is unless her doctor tells her she has contracted an STD from her supposedly monogamous lover.

            Or Moxie, you could simply not print letters from those who found unfortunate information without asking persmission.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

          • chillybeans Says:

            Yes, I snooped on my ex husband. To this day he believes I hired a private investigator, such was the extent of my incredibly thorough snooping-cell phone and email etc. Once you get started, it is hard to stop. And you have to be prepared to find out really unpleasant things being said about you.

            Was my behavior unethical? Yes!
            Was it necessary, yes, I was pregnant and needed to know if he had been cheating on me for my baby’s health. He was FURIOUS with me when I told my doctor. He didn’t seem to understand tiny innocent life was at risk. I was tested for everything you can imagine.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

            • Divorced Joe Says:

              I suppose this is where I differ from many here since I don’t believe your behavior was unethical at all. How would it have made it more ethical to hire someone else to find out the truth about your spouse?

              As I have clearly stated elsewhere, when you enter a relationship you surrender many of the expectations of personal privacy. That’s what having a relationship means and keeping secrets rarely has a place in them. If you are in a relationship and have legitimate reason to believe the other person has broken your trust, you are justified in finding out the truth and if your partner isn’t going to be honest, you will have to resort to other means.

              As way of comparison, if I hire someone, they give up a certain expectation of privacy. I, or my company, is paying their wage or salary and I have a right to know what they are doing when “on the clock.” If I have reason to believe they aren’t doing the tasks I assigned or are actually working for someone else using my time and equipment, I have a right AND obligation to learn what I can with or without their cooperation.

              It goes the other way as well. As an employee or in a relationship, I must accept that I get diminished privacy and that I have a moral obligation to my employer or significant other to be honest and to maintain trust in that relationship. If I break that trust, I forfeit any right to legitimate complaint about what the other party did to find out the truth.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

              • Vox Says:

                I’m curious – what happens if you snoop and discover your S/O wasn’t doing anything wrong? What if it was all in your head, or you learned that they had a secret which they legitimately had to keep from you. Do you fess up and apologize for your actions and for not trusting them, or do you bury the truth? Do you keep your snooping a secret?

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  4. Vox Says:

    however, there was an instance when they went out to play golf and she had asked if he told me about it. He said no (he told me he was meeting her for drinks only) and she said she did not tell her husband either

    So they are both lying to their significant others about their interaction with each other. There is nothing untoward about playing golf together, so why lie about it? If he lies about the so-called innocuous, what else does he lie about?

    Even if he is just lying to make things more comfy for himself, and isn’t a cheater, do you really want to be with a man who lies about something so mundane? It’s GOLF, nothing to lie about.

    I would dump him for being so dishonest. It isn’t going to get any better, he lies quite easily already.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “There is nothing untoward about playing golf together, so why lie about it? If he lies about the so-called innocuous, what else does he lie about?” This is the part that gets me. Why lie when there is no reason to? Not that I’m defending lying when there is a reason to, but somehow this seems even worse. That doesn’t speak well to his character–even ignoring whatever is or isn’t going on with this woman.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1

    • Paula Says:

      If it happened the way the OP described it, then it’s not clear why he lied about golf, but not necessarily clear that he lied because he feels guilty about doing something wrong.

      I would want to understand the timing: did the golf outing happen while the whole dispute over the weekend trip was happening? Since that “became a huge argument and I knew I had to stop because there is no way that the plans will change,” he may have not told the OP about golf because he thought that would send her over the edge or cause her to break up with him then and there.

      I know that if I were pissed at him over the weekend trip and we were in the midst of a fight about it, and then he said, “oh yeah, I’m going to be hanging out with her to play golf too,” that would probably be all I needed to hear from him, even if both outings were completely innocuous.

      Or, did he tell her beforehand that it was only going to be drinks, and then Mrs. Z said, “let’s do golf too,” so he didn’t update the OP because he knew she was already really sensitive about him spending time with Mrs. Z. Again, if he knew nothing would happen on the golf trip, but also knew the OP would behave like something had, he may have decided it wasn’t worth going there.

      One reason people lie is that they’re guilty of doing something they don’t want their partner to know about. But another, and perhaps more common reason, is conflict avoidance. In either event, lying isn’t justified, but knowing the reason may help determine what kind of response by the OP is appropriate (although, of course, he doesn’t know she knows about the golfing lie, which also factors into the response.)

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

      • Vox Says:

        Meh, none of these what-ifs sway me. There is a trade-off which comes with dating at my age (41). I’m not as attractive as I used to be, and the men aren’t either. We’ve all got baggage to deal with too, some worse than others. BUT the one thing we should have is emotional maturity, and that includes honesty. If we are in a relationship and you are in my bed regularly, honesty is an absolute requirement. Yes I underhand that due to past drama and anger I may have shown, he may not feel like he can be honest. but if that’s the case, he should be as repulsed by my lack of emotional maturity as I am by his lying. There is no point in continuing such a budding relationship.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

        • Paula Says:

          I don’t disagree, Vox — lying is a dealbreaker for me too, because I don’t buy the “everybody lies” stuff.

          But if she really cares about the guy, and salvaging the relationship is more important that standing firm on the honesty principle, then knowing whether or not he’s actually guilty of cheating may be important to her, or whether he was most guilty of the sin of omission rather than an explicit lie when it comes to golf.

          We also don’t know much about the argument over the weekend trip. If her boyfriend, his son, and the Zs had been going on these trips together for a long time and/or it was planned well in advance, then it may be a bigger deal than we realize to introduce the OP into the mix. If this was their first big fight or she was pretty irrational about it by the time she gave up, then she may have contributed to an environment where, as CR often describes it, he was going to be punished for telling the truth.

          It does not excuse it, but definitely provides something for the OP to consider. Rarely are things so simple as the extremes of “dump the lying bastard,” or “believe everything he tells you and never require him to set up boundaries.” It’s really very similar to swinger dude’s situation in the previous post, down to the “she snooped and may or may not have found evidence of lying.”

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  5. Anna Says:

    Ive got to agree with Moxie on this one. The snooping isnt cool but their flirting is definitely beyond the harmless flirting stage. Not inviting her on the trip when she’s his established girlfriend is suspect and flirting with the married woman he’s going with and telling her how hot she’s going to look in a bikini on the trip is pretty disrespectful to his gf who he’s leaving behind. Same with them confirming that neither told their partners that they were going golfing instead of just drinks or whatever.

    Sounds like OP snooped because she’s suspicious of him deep down. Now she’s afraid to deal with what she’s found because she doesnt want to confirm what she knows which is he’s being somewhat duplicitous. Whether it’s a full blown affair or not he’s definitely being dodgey. She needs to deal with this in a real way and own up to what she found and ask him about it and be prepared for the consequences. Not saying anything will just torture her.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

  6. Devon Brown Says:

    Just a few quick thoughts –

    I think the boyfriend is asking Mrs. Z if their fights are about him because Mr. Z blew up at Mrs. Z about her flirtatious relationship with the boyfriend at some point before. So if the OP confronts the boyfriend about it, he probably will respond to it calmly because he saw Mrs. Z go through the same conversation.

    This still doesn’t answer whether something illicit is going on though. It could be a continuing physical affair. Or it could be a past affair. Or it could just be that the flirtation is how these two have always interacted with each other. I have known people who have been very close for many years (going back to high school) and have always flirted or been overly sweet to each other, but nothing ever happened with them. It was just the way they communicated.

    I don’t think him calling her “baby” necessarily means anything either. Some people just use terms like that. Baby, sweetie, dear, honey, etc. Some people just use those terms loosely, not necessarily reserving them for romantic partners.

    I wonder as well why the OP felt the need to snoop in the first place.

    And I agree with Moxie that the OP doesn’t sound like she really wants to have a conversation with the boyfriend about it. Between that and the snooping, I wonder how invested she really is in the relationship as well.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

    • Really Rosie Says:

      Just for clarification, Mrs. Z called the BF “Baby” not the other way around. At least that’s what the article says. Quote: They went out to drinks recently and she sent him a text message saying something like, “Baby, I am so happy that you joined me for drinks.”

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “I have known people who have been very close for many years … and have always flirted or been overly sweet to each other, but nothing ever happened with them.” It’s not even necessarily flirting; my (female) best friend and I have been close for a long time, and it shows. Folks who don’t know better assume we’re dating or at least have dated in the past, and we were roommates for a while, but it’s always been completely platonic. We just know each other very well and are comfortable together–more so than some married couples I’ve known.

      “Some people just use those terms loosely, not necessarily reserving them for romantic partners.” Correct, though that makes me wonder about how good they are with boundaries and how seriously they take romantic partners vs. the other people they’re intimate with. Ditto for folks that throw around the L-word; when you do that, it loses some of its meaning, so it’s hard to tell when they really do love someone.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  7. Paula Says:

    I don’t think the OP’s boyfriend is behaving appropriately. However, it sounds like most of what’s happening is coming from Mrs. Z. And it’s unlikely that she is going to stop, if she’s having marital troubles and is out there looking for validation that she’s still hot and desirable. It’s also unlikely that the boyfriend can cut her out of his life, due to the relationship between their sons.

    I get the feeling that the boyfriend knows this is getting too hot to handle, and is probably struggling with it a lot. The whole “next time you’re invited” thing makes me think that it was probably a pretty uncomfortable situation for him. He may have even insisted that Mr. Z come, if he was raising objections to a trip with just the two of them and their two children. I say “probably” because I’m sure there’s part of him that likes the attention he gets from her, and even if he’s not planning to cross any lines, he may enjoy her flirting.

    So I would try to force the issue by planning something soon where Mrs. Z will be present, if that’s possible. If she behaves as she typically does, then you’ll have grounds to have the conversation without talking about the text messages. Or, if that’s not possible, you can always talk about the weekend, since it just happened, and try to get a sense of what the dynamic was like. It seems like he’s given you an opening with “you’re always invited in the future,” so I would try to get as much info you can to make the assessment of his role in this: is it just a matter of establishing better boundaries with someone who has no sense of them? Or is it an affair waiting to happen?

    I don’t think you should dump him just based upon current information, but it’s definitely something to watch very closely.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  8. Amir R. Says:

    I don’t approve of him having you meet his son after only nine months and that tells me that he is not a good father, because you do not want your son have a revolving door of people going through his life

    As to Mrs. Z, if so innocent, why the hiding? You’re assuming you will be together. Well here is the bad news. He is cheating on you at some level, plain and simple. Even if not physically at this point, he will at some point. What happened during his marriage with his ex-wife or other exes?

    And if he is such a wonderful man, why is he meddling in someone else’s marriage?

    As to the weekend, you were not invited because he wanted to be with Mrs. Z without Mr. Z AND without you.

    Dump him. Tell him the reason. Chances are he won’t be shocked deep down because he left you bread crumbs to follow – why text from a phone you have the password to?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 6

    • Paula Says:

      We don’t know the son’s age, or how the couple met, so a blanket statement that it’s inappropriate for her to have met the son goes too far.

      He has been divorced for 5 years, so the son is most likely older than that (plus he’s in school), but given that the OP is in his early 40s, the son could easily be 15 or older. If your child is dating age themselves, then I’m sure they’re mature enough to handle having their parent date, especially 5 years after the divorce. (Some kids are practically setting their parents up at that point, urging them to date and not focus so much on the kids’ lives, which if he’s coaching and in the PTA means he’s pretty involved.)

      “you were not invited because he wanted to be with Mrs. Z without Mr. Z AND without you.” This directly contradicts what the OP described from the text messages, which is that it was a shock that Mr. Z wasn’t coming, and that he doesn’t want drama from Mr. Z. If the Zs are having marital difficulties, Mrs. Z may be using the boyfriend to try to make her husband jealous or more attentive, which would explain why he came back and said he would never go without inviting the OP again. If every time she vents, he says “I hope it’s not about me,” then it seems like he doesn’t want to be meddling in her marriage, but she’s trying to drag him into it.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  9. A to the F Says:

    I’m very amused by the double standard here. Every single woman venting on this forum about this guys “flirting” have done that and worse. Women flirt in almost every situation to get what they want. Hypocrites, the lot of you!

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 17

    • Paula Says:

      Nope, I don’t flirt with guys in relationships. And when I was married, I didn’t flirt with anyone but my husband. Some of us have developed better and more legitimate persuasion skills that don’t involve undermining another woman’s relationship.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  10. Selena Says:

    Like the OP, I’m wondering if something went on with bf and Mrs. Z before she was in the picture. If this was an ongoing affair, I’d think the messages would be a bit racier than what she has shared. It sounds like her bf is trying to avoid drama with Mr. Z, and if bf & Mrs. Z were still at it, I think he might be saying stronger things than “I hope it’s not about me.” And more than HUH??? when he found out Mr. Z was joining them on the trip with the kids.

    It also appears the OP has become addicted to phone snooping and evidence gathering and that’s a crappy way live – eats you up inside. I think it’s time to come straight out with it, calmly, and tell him she feels uncomfortable with Mrs. Z and ask him if they have/had have something going on. Pay VERY close attention to what he says and how he reacts. If she stays calm, he might tell her the truth. She should be prepared to back up why she feels uncomfortable and admit to the snooping if need be.

    It’s possible Mrs. Z is using him for an emotional affair while she has troubles in her marriage and he doesn’t see that clearly – he’s just kind of cluelessly riding along. If he loves the OP as much as he says he does, he should be willing to dial down the friendship. Just because the kids are friends, doesn’t mean the parents have to be ‘close’.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  11. dimplz Says:

    I haven’t read all the comments, but if they share passwords (which is a mistake, IMO), shouldn’t he assume that she’s reading his texts? I’m not sure he really feels he has anything to hide. Some people don’t realize when their behavior is not ok with you until you say something. I agree with Moxie. You may as well bring it out in the open, because it’s already out there. He just doesn’t know you know.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  12. Maargen Says:

    Isn’t exchanging passwords an invitation to look at a person’s phone when they’re not around? If they are around, they can unlock it for you and show you whatever they want you to see. Why give me my own key if I’m not supposed to unlock the door in your absence (I mean this allegorically – I can imagine that having a key doesn’t mean to show up without permission – but a phone password?)? I think the OP can cop to snooping guilt free – but only if she’s prepared to have him change the password on her. Of course if he does, then she’ll take it as evidence that he has something to hide.

    As for Mrs. Z, it seems she’s after the OPs boyfriend. And that kind of attention from a woman he thinks is “hot” isn’t easy to resist. The OP has to figure out a way to deal with this without losing sight of the fact that the energy and connection between her and her boyfriend is the most important element of the relationship, and the deciding factor in whether they continue or break down.

    Keep the energy between you positive: not accusatory, and not demanding.

    Be open and direct: ask him about the vibe between him and Mrs. Z. directly. Ask him if they’ve been intimate. Ask him if he’s hoping to be intimate with her. Sure, he might lie to you, but don’t assume a denial is a lie. There might be something there that doesn’t rise to the level of significance for him. Let him know that flirtatious behaviour on his part could lead to Mrs. Z developing an interest that could make getting together awkward for the two of them, and by extension the whole group, including the kids, so it’s safer to not indulge in that kind of behaviour.

    Actually discussing this makes it harder for him to “go along for the ride”, and makes him aware of a significance to their exchanges that he may not have had to acknowledge before. Also, there are certain things that grow better in the dark. The fact that you are aware of whatever it is (harmless flirtation, illicit advances, whatever) will make him see that it’s actually going on in the light of day, and in view of their partners.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 4

    • Peter Says:

      Isn’t exchanging passwords an invitation to look at a person’s phone when they’re not around? If they are around, they can unlock it for you and show you whatever they want you to see. Why give me my own key if I’m not supposed to unlock the door in your absence (I mean this allegorically – I can imagine that having a key doesn’t mean to show up without permission – but a phone password?)? I think the OP can cop to snooping guilt free – but only if she’s prepared to have him change the password on her. Of course if he does, then she’ll take it as evidence that he has something to hide.

      This is craziness. In your key metaphor if i give you my key it might be for convenience or something but it certainly isn’t for permission to come in and dig around without me knowing. If I give you my password, its because i trust you enough not to use it. If I know your using it and I change it because of that, it is because you broke that trust, not because i have something to hide.

      The man in this post doesn’t look too innocent or anything but people gotta stop defending the op with the logic of crazy people, and also the rest of the op’s letter has to be taken with the grain of salt that this is a person who thinks and justifies just like one of those crazy people too so maybe she is imagining things that the guy might be doing and you all are imagining even more things based on that.

      Like A to the F said “This forum is dominated by women who make excuses for other women’s bad behavior. Crazies defending psychos. And that’s why you’re single…”

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 6

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Isn’t exchanging passwords an invitation to look at a person’s phone when they’re not around?

        Come on.

        I’ll take this a step further.I don’t buy – for a moment – they “exchanged passwords.” I think – maybe – he gave her his password because she needed to use his phone once, if anything.

        It’s very strange to me that this guy would be conducting some kind of side flirtation with another woman knowing his girlfriend had access to his messages. You put a password on your phone for privacy, among other things.

        If he did give her his password, then this guy couldn’t care less about this woman finding out what he’s doing. Which then puts her judgment in to question, since she thinks he’s so wonderful because he pays his alimony. Hello. You’re supposed to do such things.

        I’m still buggered by the fact that the OP described her BF as “having done well for himself.” That makes me wonder if this guy is “wonderful” because he’s rich, not because he’s a good person.

        So while the guy is probably not the knight in shining armor, my guess is she isn’t without fault either. Sorry, but if you fall for a man because he’s rich, then you shouldn’t complain when that guy turns out to be equally lacking in integrity.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

        • Trouble Says:

          I have to agree with you on this one, Moxie. I have the key to my boyfriend’s house, and he has my house key, as well. We both travel a lot, and it just makes things easier. But that isn’t a carte blanche invitation for me to go into his house when he’s not there and rifle through his private papers, which is what the OP did.
          .

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

          • Divorced Joe Says:

            Agreed, though in my case, if a possible significant other, my youngest daughter (who does have a key to my aparment in case of emergency) or even ex wants to drop by my place and rifle through my private papers, they are welcome. Just leave them how you find them and, in the case of my daughter, don’t be shocked by the things I kept from her about her mother.

            (To me, a common sense red flag in a relationship is when someone suddenly starts hiding things, using passwords where they didn’t before and keeping secrets. In a related vein, when your partner suddenly hangs up when you enter a room or starts leaving the room to answer their phone, those are usually bad signs. Just one may not mean much, but in totality it adds up.)

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

        • Maargen Says:

          If he did give her his password, then this guy couldn’t care less about this woman finding out what he’s doing. Which then puts her judgment in to question, since she thinks he’s so wonderful because he pays his alimony. Hello. You’re supposed to do such things.

          I’m still buggered by the fact that the OP described her BF as “having done well for himself.” That makes me wonder if this guy is “wonderful” because he’s rich, not because he’s a good person

          1. So the OPs boyfriend doesn’t feel the need for privacy. And that puts her judgement into question….how??

          2. And what’s this about the guy being rich?? He’s financially stable and responsible, which the OP appreciates in a guy. So now she’s a gold digger?? If they both value the same kind of lifestyle, then they’re a good match. Why does anyone need to judge what she she should or shouldn’t value?

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

        • Divorced Joe Says:

          BF’s done pretty well for himself, pays alimony to the ex-wife and sends his child to private school. He’s been divorced for over 5 years now and we have been dating for 8 months. During his downtime post divorce, he kept himself busy by being active in his son’s school (coaching, PTA, etc).

          I interpretted the OP as saying that he is a very stable, responsible person, which is why his apparent irresponsible behavior surprised her. Now, whether that information is material is questionable. Everyone has some dichotomies, or apparent dichotomies, in their life. In this case, just because a person is stable and reliable in all aspects of their life EXCEPT in romantic relationships isn’t any big surprise.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

        • chuckrock Says:

          My phone has a password automatically set up, and whereas I can change what the password is I can not remove the need to put one in. So it is there, not because of a need for secrecy but because that is the way the phone is set up.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

      • Maargen Says:

        Here’s what I mean with the key metaphor: you only need a key to my apartment to get in when I’m not home. If you’re coming there when I am home – I’ll let you in.

        Now, with an apartment, there can be plenty of times when it’s not convenient for me to be there to let you in, and if that happens too often, I can certainly decide to give you a key. Of course that doesn’t give you the right to go there without my knowledge.

        But we are talking about a phone here! The only reason you would need my password is to look at it when I’m not around. And what are you supposed to do with it: play video games?? Do you have my password for the many times when you need a phone, lose your own, and mine happens to be there – but I’m not around to unlock it for you??

        The only reason I can see for the exchange of passwords is to facilitate exactly what the OP did.

        Maybe this password exchange thing is done to build trust: each person has the ability to see who the person is texting/communicating with at all times. Personally, I think it’s crazy to do it at all, but it makes no sense to exchange them with the understanding that they never be used. Doesn’t it make more sense to say I trust you enough not to need your password??

        Leaving the specifics of the OP for a sec, here’s what I find weird: there are people on this site who promote honesty and openness in dating. I know I do, and I know that I get it in return. I tell the truth, I do not do anything that I don’t want my partner knowing, I do not give my dates false impressions of what I’m doing or of my intentions.

        I make a point of dating guys who feel the way I do about these things. I’m not naive: I take my time deciding if the guy I’m with is one of them. And finding out usually involves some pain: it’s the guy who will say some things I don’t necessarily want to hear who turns out to be the one I can trust to tell me the truth. But when I feel that he is trustworthy – I trust him. If I want to know something, I ask him. And I accept his word. I don’t spy on him, I don’t snoop, I don’t check emails, texts, etc.

        But there are others on this site who tell us that lying is the norm. We should expect it, accept it, and deal with it as the status quo. So then, how do those people suggest we find out what we need to know in a relationship? I promote honesty and openess precisely because the absence of open communication leaves snooping, spying and eternal suspicion as the only options.

        I find it odd that the same people who condone and excuse lying are some of the same ones who come down so hard on snooping. I feel that the ubiquity of one causes the other – so we should get rid of both.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

        • Divorced Joe Says:

          Just an experiment to see if closing italics here works.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

        • Breebree Says:

          I don’t understand for the life of me why folks always ask other people the questions they should be asking their s/o??????
          Yes she would have to admit that she snooped but at the same time she would get answers to the questions that she deserves to know and everything would be out in the open and things would be crystal clear.
          It would behoove single and confused to just ask her boyfriend whats up….if he denies denies denies and/or plays it off and/or doesn’t give her any answers at all then those are answers too.
          She needs to let him know specifically what bothers her and that she won’t tolerate it and let him know that if he doesn’t give her the respect she deserves that she is gone for good and thats that.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  13. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    1. So the OPs boyfriend doesn’t feel the need for privacy. And that puts her judgement into question….how??

    Well, if he doesn’t feel the need for privacy, then that makes what he’s doing even more disrespectful. What sort of person would write messages telling another woman how hot she is and would lie about his whereabouts, knowing his girlfriend could find them at any time. I’ll tell you. A guy who doesn’t care about his girlfriend’s feelings. Yet the OP “can’t live without him” and thinks he’s “wonderful.” He can’t be both. He can’t be a self-involved, insensitive jerk and wonderful. I mean, he can, but only with someone with a very distorted perception of what defines “wonderful”.

    2. And what’s this about the guy being rich??

    How he’s done for himself financially is in no way representative of his character. And this letter was all about his questionable character. Yet the first sentence she used when describing him was that he’s “done well for himself.” Why is that the first thing she says when describing him? That’s what suspect to me. She’s using the fact that he pays his alimony and sends his kids to private school, both referring to his finances, to describe him. She didn’t start off by saying he’s a devoted father who coaches and attends PTA. She starts off by describing his financial contributions.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 4

    • Maargen Says:

      Well, if he doesn’t feel the need for privacy, then that makes what he’s doing even more disrespectful.

      No, it makes him a guy who didn’t plan on doing anything wrong. Maybe at the time of the password exchange, none of this was going on.

      As for describing his finances, so what? You’ve decided that this is because it’s the most important thing to her, but it could be conditioning. There are plenty of dating sites that put age, income and marital status as the first three criteria – hobbies and lifestyle stuff comes after.

      And the letter was not at all about his “questionable character”! The letter was about how she should deal with this situation between him and his flirty friend. She wasn’t trying to represent his character, she was just describing his lifestyle.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  14. pistola Says:

    Mox, I can’t resist–

    “What sort of person would write messages telling another woman how hot she is and would lie about his whereabouts, knowing his girlfriend could find them at any time?”

    A dumb one?

    As I’ve witnessed through the experiences of my friends, cheaters ain’t necessarily SMART people.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

    • Breebree Says:

      Pistola you can say that again “cheaters ain’t necessarily SMART people”
      so so so very true.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        If you’re not going to add anything original, only agree with what has already been said, please just click the thumbs-up button.

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  15. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    “I have three friends who have “snooped” and caught their partners cheating. All three of them are definitely rational and stable people. ”

    Definitely. And you know what else rational and stable people do? They cheat, they tell half-truths, they outright lie, they manipulate, they fail at relationships, they hurt people sometimes by accident and sometimes on purpose. They make mistakes. People are flawed. To me, there’s nothing particularly remarkable about snooping – most people, I think, if curious, if given an opportunity and without the likelihood of getting caught, will peek. I think it’s natural. I think “cheating” is natural too.

    I think it’s a mistake to snoop….but not because of some moral outrage about it, or because I care so much about the imagined violation of someone’s privacy who doesn’t even know his email is hacked. No, as I said above, the reason people shouldn’t snoop is because it’s not good for the snooper. People have different faces they show in different circumstances. When you snoop, you may discover some unpleasant things that you wish you didn’t know. How do we know it’s bad? Because we’ve all more or less done it.

    But, the truth is, snooping gives people insight. As we sit here and read the OP’s story and judge her for snooping, we learned something about her boyfriend that we wouldn’t otherwise know. And, we can extrapolate something about human beings from her experience – namely, that there are other seemingly “great guys” who are doing similar things as the OP’s boyfriend behind their doting girlfriend’s back. Yes, YOUR boyfriend. The real lesson to be learned from the story, I think, is to accept that certain things are a certain way because we are all human beings. Conform your expectation to reality and you will be happier, I think. You don’t have to forgive your cheating boyfriend. Go ahead and dump him, I probably would. But, the next guy you date may be a cheater too. Maybe you just won’t catch him. And, your girlfriend? God forbid, maybe she’s a snooper. Sometimes when you really want something you have to “give up” something to get it. Relationships are sacrifice.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      And, personally more offended by the jackass that turned on the italics and forgot to turn it off.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

    • Breebree Says:

      Driving me nutes I disagree…..cheating is not something that should be defined as natural..It is common yes unfortunately but it is also very wrong and it’s how a lot of std’s get spread around and people get killed in crimes of passion and feelings get crushed and marriages get destroyed as well as childrens lives get turned upside down.
      Cheating is a very bad habit that can be controlled but we choose not to control it because it feels good to us when we see something better we just have to have it….but in the end like they say…”cheaters never win and winners never cheat”.
      And trust and believe this person can surely find someone who is Not a cheater…..he may not be smokin hot and the most attractive person and he may not be very well off and may not have a great job and make six figures but he will probably be one of the most honest men she has ever dated.
      Single and confused needs to get her priorities straight and make some changes about what is important to her in a man and what are the best qualities.
      You can’t always have gorgeous, makes six figures, romantic, charming and loyal, honest and not a cheater or liar in one man…….something to think about.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3

  16. LT Says:

    Ok, I read the OP’s comments again and this quote, “In fact, Mr. Z was actually not even planning on joining the summer trip, until the last minute. To which my BF’s reaction over text was “HUH???” leads me to believe that the BF and Mrs Z were planning to have an affair or already started one!

    I definitely think snooping is not a good idea but most people snoop only when they suspect something! I think the OP should watch the way her BF is around Mrs Z when she is present and if she thinks they are flirting then you can start talking to him about his “friendship” with Mrs Z and how it makes you feel. Then watch if he changes is behavior. He might change and turn things around in this relationship but only time will tell. It sounds like the OP really cares for this man but I think his relationship with Mrs Z is inappropriate so I don’t see how this relationship (with the OP) will last.

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    • Breebree Says:

      Exactly LT……not likely this relationship will last unless the OP chooses to deal with this behavior in spite of….

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