Signs That They’re a Bad Dater Or Not Ready To Date

After I wrote the Behind The Blog post about my experience with OKCupid, I realized that there was a running theme with many of the men that KEYBOARDDOLLI met.

Many of them just weren’t good daters or weren’t ready to date.

I think everyone has their own set of signs and signals that they use to determine whether someone is good at relationship or in the right place to have one. Here are mine:

1. They sabotage themselves by telling you things they know could be deemed unattractive - I had a date several months back with a man. He suggested coffee. I suggested a drink. He came out and told me that he was opting for coffee “for money reasons.” I don’t think someone needs to spend a lot of money on a date in order to date. But dating someone, even if you’re going Dutch the whole time, still involves spending some money. Either the person doesn’t have it, or they don’t want to spend it. Another speedbump is talking about a recent break up or divorce beyond a sentence or two. It’s one thing to answer a question when asked. There’s nothing odd about that. But if they offer such information then, in my mind, it’s concerning. If you find yourself wondering why someone told you something, file that away and approach with caution. In many cases, they were either testing you (which I hate)  OR they were letting you know – consciously or not – that they’re not in a good place emotionally. Sometimes we sabotage ourselves without even knowing it, which in and of itself is a bad sign. It shows a lack of self-awareness.

2. They speak of their other dates -  If a man announces, on a first date, that he had a date over the weekend or has another date lined up, it’s a red flag. No, I don’t think someone should assume exclusivity after one date. Come on. But there are certain things you just don’t talk about because it’s bad manners. It’s also rather socially clueless. I don’t want to know that a man has other dates. I just don’t. I assume it until he gives me reason to believe otherwise. To make me acutely aware of that fact either shows a complete social ineptitude or hints at a manipulative nature. Few people want to know, for a fact, that they are just one of a few people vying for the other person’s attention. It completely distorts future  interactions. If someone asks you, on the first date or two, if you’re dating others… at the very least play it down or try to avoid answering the question directly. If you have to..lie. Yeah, I said it. Same goes if you mess up and call someone by the wrong name or send them a text meant for someone else. In the early stages, as DMN has said, dating is about diplomacy.

3. Chronic lateness and rescheduling- I’ve mentioned before that I believe constant tardiness is a sign of passive aggression. By frequently showing up late to things, the person is expecting their date to wait for them and showing little concern for that person’s time or schedule. Self-indulgence at its finest.

4. They actively use social media on your date – A lot of people will arrive at a specified location early and hop on Facebook or Twitter and try to pass the time. But if they’re actively live tweeting/updating dates or if they ask if they can blog about something that happened on the date, be warned. Over sharer and potential drama hound. They’re more interested in the reactions of their followers and looking “cool” for being on a date than the impression they are making on you. Should you do a little research post-date and find their Twitter account and see lots of rants or discussions about their personal dating life, be careful. I can not impress upon people enough that if you regularly publicly share the fact that you’re actively dating multiple people or hooking up,  or if you’re frequently ranting about the opposite sex, you are immediately deemed a liability. You just are. Stop telling yourself that the “right” person will find that particular quirk cute or endearing. Don’t be surprised when the person you just blogged about, wherein you mentioned something rather personal or sensitive about them, blows you off. Nobody is taking that on.

5. Sex Talk - Sometimes people say or do things with the intention of gauging the response of their date. (This is tied to point number #1.)  For instance…. they bring up sex early on, say in initial email or texts chats or on the first date.  I know people will say that they either just came from a sexless marriage or relationship and want to be sure they don’t get stuck in another.  The problem I have with this is that talk is cheap, baby.  People are deluding themselves if they believe they can discern someone’s sexual appetite and abilities from a clinical or even raunchy talk about sex. My personal feeling is that if you’re going to talk sex that early on, you shouldn’t play the ” I need to be sure we’re on the same page” card. I’ll say this, and I’m speaking from experience because I know I’ve done it….early talk of sex is rarely a good sign unless you’re looking for something casual. Either the person is strictly looking for sex or they use sex to keep people interested or at an emotional distance. Not a sign of a healthy person.

 

Got any more?

 

 

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...
Share

87 Responses to “Signs That They’re a Bad Dater Or Not Ready To Date”

  1. Gmac Says:

    Funny, there are some similarities and differences with women. Then again, to me it doesn’t matter if she’s a bad dater, but rather if she puts out or not.

    #1 is definitely true for both sides
    #2 I get all the time. it works to my favor, because 90% or more of my dates go extremely well so the bar has been raised after all of their bad dates.
    #3 I always expect women to be late. Being late and rescheduling myself (on purpose) works to my advantage.
    #4 I openly criticize anyone on their phone during the date. Unacceptable.
    #5 This is the best. Guys bringing up sex = bad. Girls bringing up sex = good.

    I’m definitely a casual person, but this is a good list for people looking for something more long term.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 12

    Reply

    • Andrew Says:

      Most of the mistakes listed above applies to both genders. I can actually list quite a few more. The unfortunate reality is that a lot of people make these dating mistakes. However, people are still connecting. So I guess we all have a sliding scale, where we are willing to overlook these mistakes. I suppose the material issues are sufficiently paramount to cause us to do that. And trust me I am no ecception. I will give someone that second and third chance because I understand how negative experiences can beat a person up. It certainly helps too, when she a particularly good quality that I like, to counterbalance any of these dating mistakes.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

      Reply

  2. Capt. Jack Sparrow Says:

    “I can not impress upon people enough that if you regularly publicly share the fact that you’re actively dating multiple people or hooking up,  or if you’re frequently ranting about the opposite sex, you are immediately deemed a liability. You just are.”

    I couldn’t help thinking this quote was self-referential. I can see how guys might think dating a date blogger who frequently rants about her dates might be a liability. It may simply be an unavoidable occupational hazard.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      It may simply be an unavoidable occupational hazard.

      It’s totally avoidable. It requires a great deal of self-edting and forethought and consideration of who might be reading and what they might think upon reading it.

      I’m not sure how many blogs you read, but by comparison, this blog has become pretty tame in regards to the over sharing and ranting. I might share some personal things here and there to explain a point or why I have the perspective I do. But the days of using this blog to brag about who I’m screwing or discussing the private innerworkings/conversations of dates/relationships are long gone and have been for some time. Maybe I still have a blind spot in that regard. But I know for a fact that blogging about your love/sex life in any real detail is the one sure way to stay single.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2

      Reply

      • Capt. Jack Sparrow Says:

        As a long-time reader, I remember you posted the epiphany that guys are wary of dating a woman who is a dating coach/blogger (and that you’d refrain from doing that), since no one wants to be a rant in your next write-up. The problem is, you keep going there.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 7

        Reply

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          I wrote one post a month ago that wasn’t part of this section of the blog about something. It stayed up for two weeks. It came down. I wrote the post last week about various dates I had this summer. There were no “rants.” That’ll come down, too. Those were the only two posts in the last 9 months that were – in full – dedicated to discussing my life in any sort of real detail. Writing a line or two here and there in a post or writing a comment is in no way close to writing a 1000 word post about some dude I met on OKCupid and what a lame-o he was. I don’t post text messages or emails. I don’t deconstruct every aspect of a date or hook -up.

          I don’t rant about guys I date. I don’t discuss the guys I date here.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

          Reply

  3. Saywhat! Says:

    How about people who date outside of their geographical area with NO means of transportation. (Applies to online dating mostly) For example: Lives in NY, NO car, OR may even live in Jersey with NO car. Actively seeks women out of the area, knowing they don’t have any means of getting there other than public transportion. Clearly a sign of expecting the women to always make the trip.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 2

    Reply

    • Laura Says:

      I assume that anyone who lives outside of Manhattan (but in the NYC area) is planning to come to Manhattan for dates (whether they’re male or female). Why would I want to trek out somewhere else when I live in the more desirable location? Of course I’ll go to them occasionally, but I’m expecting that most of the time, if THEY chose to live somewhere that requires non-public transportation, they will use their car to either come to me or pick me up to see them. It’s pretty much expected that if you live in Manhattan, you probably don’t have a car – I don’t feel the need to call that out in my profile.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 1 Thumb down 10

      Reply

      • chuckrock Says:

        I think that would be a bad assumption. Not everyone thinks Manhattan is the more desirable location. when I lived in Queens (which is most of my life) I would bring dates out in Queens or Nassau and very very rarely Manhattan.

        Manhattan may be the more desirable location for YOU, but not for everyone in NYC.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

        Reply

      • dimplz Says:

        If you choose to date someone outside of your geographic area, expect to spend a lot of time out of your area as well. No one needs to bend over backwards to date someone out of their region, especially if you’re already thinking that the other person will need to see you more. Inventing arbitrary rules before you even meet someone is what makes dating so difficult these days. The dealbreakers Moxie stated above are legitimately alarming, but someone who lives out of your region is not an alarming reality.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

        Reply

  4. Jeanne Says:

    I am a little older so perhaps I come from a different perspective. The fact is that if your date is talking about sex early on then it is a huge priority to them. We all want that in a relationship and if that is your priority then go for it, otherwise it is a liablity and you will send potential dates running screaming into the night . I think many of us want more and if a guy talks dirty or gets very sexual right away I am not interested, they can get that anywhere and so can most of us. Also, it is beyond rude to talk about other dates when you are with someone. We all suspect that the people (men and women) we go out with initially are dating other people . Most of us hope that if things go well we might become the exclusive one but a guy or girl who feels it necessary to talk about their other opportunities in front of their date; my opinion would be that they have some kind of self esteem issues. One last thought, if someone rants about the opposite sex I would find them suspect. Moxie has a blog, she addresses many issues and often has great insight, has had much more experience, not a liability at all. If you are on this blog you get what you get.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

    Reply

  5. Mike Says:

    I have let women know up front my situation which may be a turn off for them. It was not my intent to sabatoge the date. Just want them to know up front where I am coming from. Didn’t want to get the feelings going and then have them bail out on me. Also certain types of surprises from women I don’t appreciate. So I try to treat them as I want to be treated.

    I am 15 years older than I look, divorced, two teenage children, etc. These are things I let them know sooner rather than later.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Trouble Says:

      I agree with Mike on this one. I wanted people to know, up front, that I was a divorced single mom with two kids. That’s something that people can either handle–or they can’t. As far as the person who is on a budget and opts for coffee over a drink, I’m on a budget myself, and I’d approve of that behavior. One person’s overshare may be a positive for someone else.

      To add to your list: people who come on too fast. You meet the guy, and on the first date, he’s talking about your future together. NO. Do not do this. You come across as desperate and a little crazy. Another guy sent me flowers for my birthday after we’d been on a date. A single date. You just don’t need to try this hard when you’ve only just met someone. Whatever you do for that person should be in line with the length of time you’ve known them. Flowers after a month – fine. Flowers after a day? Weird (despite what the movies suggest).

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1

      Reply

      • chuckrock Says:

        With my main ex-gf I bought her a sunflower on our first date. Also, since we were going to go a month between second and third dates (i was studying for the bar and she understood I didn’t have any free time) and she was having minor surgery during that time – i sent her flowers the day of the surgery. That turned into a 7 year plus relationship. So i think the flowers thing can also work in certain situations with certain women.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

        Reply

        • Andrew Says:

          That is the Yu story with dating. There are rules, but nothing is carved in stone. Situations determine what happens.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          Reply

  6. chuckrock Says:

    My worst dating experience this past year and a half came when the woman didn’t tell me until after the third date that she had 3 kids. Otherwise she seemed like a great match for me, but she hid that from me knowing it was a deal breaker for me. I wished she had told me sooner.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Did you ask her if she had kids? Did her profile state that she didn’t have children?

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

      Reply

      • chuckrock Says:

        This was a different type of situation than I am used to, and came earlier on in my entering back into the dating world. I had responded to her craigslist ad – she is the only one I have done this with. So she didn’t say anything about kids in her ad. we conversed over email for well over a month before meeting, mainly because we were both weary about meeting someone from craigslist. The topic of kids did come up, but in rereading the emails after the fact, I did not come out and ask that specific question.

        she is also the one woman I had first date sex with. we had unbelievable chemistry in bed and quite frankly she is the best lover I have had to this point. she basically hid the fact that she had kids from because she knew it was a deal breaker for me and thought since the sex was so good (she told me this afterwards -so it wasn’t just in my mind) that i wouldn’t want to give that up and eventually be ok with it. I did try for a couple of more dates, but in the end i couldn’t get over what i felt was a lie….even more than the kids thing.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

        Reply

        • Capt. Jack Sparrow Says:

          You should disclose a major fact like kids on the first date. Seriously. And to bait you with sex before telling you in hopes of hooking you, I feel was manipulative on her part.

          Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

          Reply

        • Kacy333 Says:

          That’s a shame…
          I never thought I would be in a relationship with someone with children, but I am. And, much to my surprise, I love every minute of it.
          But my guy was upfront about the children… he didn’t try to reel me in and then drop a bomb like that.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

          Reply

    • Breebree Says:

      Chuck why was that a deal breaker for you? If she was a great match so what she has kids?
      Before you brushed her off you should have gave her and her children a chance….you could see firsthand what kind of mother she is.
      Now if you have no children and want your own children and she does not want to have anymore kids then I can somewhat you letting her go.
      And folks wonder why they are single….by the time you’ve disqualified everyone who wasn’t your “perfect match” there is nobody left for you to date.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

      Reply

      • chuckrock Says:

        Dating someone with kids is just not for me. I tried it three different times, including this woman and I learned that I don’t want it. I don’t wonder why I am single, so I don’t know why you imply that. (and in fact at the moment I am not single)

        I do want my own kids. I in fact love kids. i just don’t want to be and can not see myself being a father to anyone that is not my own child. I know this about myself and I am ok with it. Many single mothers think that I am selfish for thinking this way, i just feel i am being honest.

        I was careful in my life to not get a woman pregnant prior to marriage because I knew I wasn’t ready to be a father and only want to have children with the woman i will spend my life with. Why would I have made this so important if I was just going to wind up with a woman who already had a built in family? when you date someone with kids you don’t just date her but you date the family. This is not something I want.

        The last straw with this woman was her not being able to spend new years eve with me because she couldn’t get a baby sitter. I felt that if I was dating someone then i should be seeing her on new years eve. This just proved to me that our lifestyles (because of her kids) were just too different at this point for it to work.

        And besides, the lie really was the bigger issue for me. My single mother female friends all told me they were shocked that she hid it because their kid(s) are such an important part of their lives it would be impossible for them to hide it unless it was done on purpose to trick me. I believe them.

        I am young enough that i do not have to settle for a woman with kids just because. If i am still single in ten years, maybe i will change my mind…but for now I feel it is the right decision for me and for any potential kid of a woman i would date. It wouldn’t be fair to them either.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

        Reply

        • Maargen Says:

          Ouch!

          I was thinking that your self-awareness and thinking things through is exactly what’s needed when dating so I was going to hit the thumbs up, but somehow ended up hitting thumbs down by mistake. Please disregard it – everything you said makes perfect sense.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

          Reply

        • Joey Giraud Says:

          Many single mothers think that I am selfish for thinking this way

          This divorced dad with sons and an adopted step-dad also thinks you’re selfish.

          Selfish people are not entirely bad people however.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

          Reply

      • Really Rosie Says:

        Chuck has every right to feel as he does and I applaud him for it and for the compromises he has tried. And yes, the lie by omission itself regarding having three custodial kids would be worse than the kids themselves in his case. While I know I am contradicting myself because I currently am seeing a non-custodial father of one, some of us prefer to be childfree. Once one is in their 40s try finding someone who is not divorced with kids; believe me I tried and that did make me pretty “undateable.” (If they’re over 40 and have never been married, there’s a reason! But I digress.)

        Have you ever been a step-parent? I have, 25 years ago, and even though I went into it with my eyes open (as much as they can be when one is 22 and in love) three step-children taking 75% of your husband’s modest salary is more to deal with than it it looks like on paper. Every vacation is either visiting the kids or going somewhere kid-centric so kiss romantic weekends/vacations goodbye (at least in the real world; NYC seems to have its own rules.)

        Plus some of us are honest with ourselves that we just don’t like kids all that much (my standard reply is “I don’t see the upside”) and thankfully never succumbed to the intense social pressure to breed just because one is “supposed to.” I have yet to meet my BF’s young son because I don’t feel one should do that too early in a relationship. He sees him weekly on Sundays and that is fine with me as I value my “alone” time anyway. But at least I was not blind-sided as Chuck was.

        Now, as for dating a custodial parent? Not just “no” but H*** NO.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

        Reply

        • Angeline Says:

          Speaking of disclosure, does he know how strongly you feel about not wanting to be a parent? You do realize that circumstances could change on a dime, and he’d be the custodial parent? I think I’d bristle if I was the parent in question and heard this conversation. He might well be hoping for *more* time with his son as he gets older. Would that be a dealbreaker for you? He deserves to know that if he views you as long term, with hopes of blending his family with you.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

          Reply

  7. Paula Says:

    I understand why Moxie would develop a list like this, but it reads to me more like a list of personal pet peeves rather than universal truth.

    For example, if someone needs to conserve money, I want to know that so that I don’t suggest something that’s beyond his means and make him uncomfortable. If I know someone is dating other people or still a little hung up on his ex, I’m going to interpret his actions differently than if I know his dance card is wide open and it’s me vs. singlehood.

    Chronic lateness and actively using your phone while on a date are just rude, so if you want to ferret out rude people before they’re part of your life, then it’s good you know sooner rather than later. But that doesn’t apply to just dating, but friendship as well. It doesn’t mean they’re a bad dater or not ready to date as much as they’re the kind of person I’d rather not have in my life period.

    As for the sex talk, I agree that “People are deluding themselves if they believe they can discern someone’s sexual appetite and abilities from a clinical or even raunchy talk about sex.” However, you can often discern someone’s relationship history, and whether casual sex is more of a priority than developing a relationship, from the way they talk about sex. Since that is important to know early on, I’d rather they play that card sooner rather than later. And if they have any particular fetishes or needs to be satisfied, I don’t want to waste time if it’s not something I’m into.

    DMN said “dating is about diplomacy.” He also recently said “One could argue that a relationship that fizzles out quickly is “better” because you didn’t waste a lot of time.” Diplomacy that involves lying or shielding who you really are from someone generally ends up being a colossal waste of time. If the thing you’re trying to hide is big enough that you feel the need to hide it, it’s also something that is likely to matter to the person you’re with. If it didn’t matter, then revealing it early isn’t a liability, but building deception around it just might be enough to doom you regardless. And if it does matter, then the person you’re with is well within their rights and more likely to terminate things immediately, for the dealbreaker, the deception, or both.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Trouble Says:

      I have to agree with DMN on this one. If we are inherently incompatible, and I learn this on the first date, it’s a plus, not a minus. For instance, a really great guy I met wanted kids very badly. I already have two and am not interested in being preggers at this point in my life. Major conflict of goals. We’re still friends, but he married someone else who wanted babies. I consider our adult handling of this something that I”m still proud of, to this day. And, I value his friendship, as well.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

      Reply

      • Really Rosie Says:

        Trouble,
        My first husband (I was 20, he was 30) wanted kids that badly though downplayed it when we talked about my commitment to being childfree prior to marriage. I was honest and thought he accepted that. Once married though he figured that I was now “safe and secure” (meaning I did not have to work if I didn’t want to, etc.) he could talk me into breeding. No chance, and I divorced him six months later so he could find someone he could procreate with and we too stayed friendly for years. He did find her, right away in fact, but she was unable to have kids after all. They adopted two kids from Romania. Good for them and good for the kids and good for me for sticking to my guns and getting out. :)

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

        Reply

    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      I like this talmudic debate over my commentary.

      To clarify, I think all successful relationships are about good diplomacy, not just dating and not just “early on.” If people consider “getting what you want” a bad thing, then my final advice to them is not to take any of my advice and stop reading my commentary. (I take that back, please keep reading)

      Dating is not a zero-sum game – not every advantage taken is at the expense of, or detriment to, another person. Well-intended manipulation and deceit can and does benefit both parties. And you know it, even if you budding moralists won’t admit it.

      Being a “bad dater” to me means lacking self-awareness or lacking ability to realistically assess a situation and, most importantly, your role in it.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 5

      Reply

      • Paula Says:

        “Well-intended manipulation and deceit” is still manipulation and deceit. As someone who I assume you’d consider a “budding moralist,” the only win-win for me is finding someone who 1) both feels the same way about me as I feel about him, and 2) who also feels the same way about manipulation and deceit that I do, that it’s wrong, regardless of intent, and especially if it gets in the way of determining number 1.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

        Reply

      • Paula Says:

        Actually, DMN, we don’t have to have the Talmudic debate…Moxie has quoted you a couple of times now on the “dating is about diplomacy” front. What does that mean, exactly?

        Does that entail telling your date something that you know not to be true, such as “I’m not dating other people” or “I don’t have children”? when you are dating other people and/or have children? Does it mean not sharing that information unless you’re asked, even when you know the other person wants an exclusive relationship and/or to date someone without children? At what point do you disclose these things that are often if not always dealbreakers?

        Does diplomacy mean you lie? That you tell people what they want to hear in order to keep dating them? Or only that you’re self-aware enough to avoid subjects that could cause things to end prematurely until you have a chance to know someone better?

        If we’re going to be told to follow your advice, it would be helpful to know exactly what it means.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 4

        Reply

        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          Objection, off topic. Please take your personal questions to coffee talk so I can ignore them in the proper forum.

          Don’t worry Paula, I still love you. My advice is cryptic? No shit, hence the talmud reference.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 3

          Reply

          • Paula Says:

            I’m not asking what you do and say to your dates…I’m pretty sure I don’t want to know. But since you frequently dispense your wisdom here, and in this very topic said “I think all successful relationships are about good diplomacy, not just dating and not just ‘early on,'” perhaps you could say a little something about what that means exactly.

            Or we could conclude that it’s meaningless and/or harmful advice that Moxie should stop serving up to us, but because I still love you, I’m first willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. The people who wrote the Talmud have been dead for centuries. Is that our takeaway here?

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 6

            Reply

            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              Here’s the takeawy. He’s not indulging you. So move along.

              Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 4

              Reply

              • DrivingMeNutes Says:

                Too bad, I was just about to share my Manifesto. Guess we’ll wait until the
                exciting topic of me comes up again organically.

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

                Reply

      • Andrew Says:

        Well intentioned is a dangerous word, but something we all do at some point. So I don’t disagree with you on that point. The problem is taking it too far of course. The other issue is what happens when someone makes a small faux pas. Do we relegate him or her to the unredeemable. I suppose that is my greatest worry. In truth, people do eventually make a little mistake at some point. In the end our lack of perfection is what makes us all unique and who we are.

        For me, the difficulty in situations where a dating mistake occurs is how do I let a person know I am uncomfortable, without creating an imbalanced situation. I know I am not going to just cringe and bear it, so I have found this to be a bigger problem than even the mistake. I once went on a first date with a woman who was too critical, and she tried to do it jokingly. It was just a date from hell. Ah criticism, that poisinous relationship killer.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        Reply

  8. Carrie Blogshaw Says:

    Great points.
    Finding the emotionally available, mature man is my focus right now and so far, I haven’t gotten close. It is an assumption on my part that, if you have subscribed to a dating website, you are open and ready to date. Unfortunately, many people get out of a relationship and go online to find a distraction.
    Lets all try to heal after our relationships end and start dating when we feel whole and hopeful.
    Then, let the dating begin without drama!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Joey Giraud Says:

      emotionally available, mature man

      Good luck with that. The two things are almost contradictory.

      Little boys show emotion freely. Mature men learn to control and conceal their emotions.

      What you probably mean is that you want a man with emotional control who will show you a little bit more then he shows anyone else.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

      Reply

  9. Maargen Says:

    To make me acutely aware of that fact either shows a complete social ineptitude or hints at a manipulative nature.

    I’m dating other people. If the person I’m with knows I’m dating other people he might decide to do X. If he thinks I’m not dating other people, he might do Y. I want him to do Y.

    Moxie: which is the manipulative behaviour? To let the person have all the facts and make decisions that work for him, or to withhold information from the person to get him to do what you want?

    I see and hear so many people so bitter and cynical about dating, and I couldn’t’ understand it since my experiences have been so very positive. Reading blogs like this help me understand where the cynicism comes from. People are assuming that lying is the norm so why not lie – thereby making lying the norm. Then you have people like Moxie advising people to date with all the integrity of used car salesmen.

    I don’t advocate the end of manipulative lies because it’s “the right thing to do”. I advocate it because IT DOESN”T WORK. As long as people keep following this kind of fucked up advice, they’ll keep having the same kind of fucked up results – the proverbial definition of insanity!

    Why not throw away the rules that end up with so many people confused and unhappy? Why not try something new?

    Such as: stop manipulative dating. If you make someone think you’re seeing no one else and they make decisions based on that, you are standing on quicksand. There is no guarantee that they won’t find out the truth. If they do: BOOM to your make-believe, fantasy “relationship”.

    If on the other hand, you don’t lie and manipulate, there is no “truth” to come out. It is perfectly reasonable to date more than one person until…. The person who does not realize this is the insecure, unreasonable person who can’t deal with reality – and who shouldn’t be dating (add that one to Moxie’s list). Progressing with reasonable, secure people who you communicate well with, without lies, leads to the strong relationships based on reality that last a lifetime (Seriously. Even my exes have become friends with each other)

    And if you’re the kind of person who is so desperate to be with someone that you think it’s better to be with someone based on lies, fantasy, distortion and pretending not to know what you do know then to be alone: for God’s sake – stop dating! You should be the number one person on Moxie’s list of who to avoid. Get therapy and stop polluting the water out there.

    Also, FYI: “Diplomacy” is knowing what not to say. “Lying” is creating a false perception of reality. For instance, there is no need to announce that you are seeing other people, but to deliberately try to create the impression that you’re not when in reality you are, is lying – and manipulative.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 14 Thumb down 7

    Reply

  10. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    I’m dating other people. If the person I’m with knows I’m dating other people he might decide to do X. If he thinks I’m not dating other people, he might do Y. I want him to do Y.

    Moxie: which is the manipulative behaviour? To let the person have all the facts and make decisions that work for him, or to withhold information from the person to get him to do what you want?

    It’s not about manipulating. You’re grandstanding. It’s about increasing your chances of getting to know the person better. You just said in another thread that someone who expects exclusivity after one or two dates is unrealistic. Now you are you advocating that someone indulge that unrealistic expectation by being honest. Which is it?

    Not only that, Maargen, but you’re not even the target audience for the advice given. You don’t want anything serious or substantive. You’ve admitted it. You said just a couple weeks ago that you’re just looking for consistent sex. I don’t expect you to understand why I’m suggesting what I’m suggesting. You use your own road blocks to ensure a man doesn’t date you seriously or with the intention of getting to know you better. You’re the one announcing on your first couple dates that you won’t have a threeway and telling men what you will and won’t do in the bedroom. So of course you’re going to advocate that people say things to sabotage themselves or give their dates pause. You do it yourself, so you think that’s the appropriate course of action. You truly believe that what you’re doing by “being honest” is about giving the other person the opportunity to pull out.

    You’ve offered several examples- 2 broken engagements, hyper-sexualized conversation with men you’re not even dating, separated bedrooms with men you’ve lived with, miscalculated commentary about wanting to wake up with a man but aren’t ready to have sex – of how you’ve put up road blocks and gotten in your own way. You aren’t looking for an emotion based relationship and just want consistent sex, but the sex has to come when you’re “ready” for it or “feel what you need to feel.” Is it about feelings or is it about fucking? It can’t be both.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 16

    Reply

    • Maargen Says:

      Geez…

      You’ve either totally misunderstood everything I’ve ever written or are deliberately misrepresenting them!

      You don’t want anything serious or substantive. You’ve admitted it. You said just a couple weeks ago that you’re just looking for consistent sex.

      No – what I said is that if it wasn’t for my need of consistent sex I wouldn’t be trying to establish a relationship. As I specifically said: there are many reasons why people choose to have a relationship. Is my motivation for seeking a substantive relationship in order to have a family? No. Is it in order to avoid being single? No. Is it for social status? No. Is it for financial stability? No. All of these, plus many more, are valid reasons to want a relationship. None of them happen to be mine. My reason is because I like sex, and I like monogamy. These are things that I can only get long-term by establishing a non-platonic relationship: everything else in the world I want (companionship, financial security, social status) I have to my satisfaction regardless of my relationship status.

      Wanting to start a family may be a great reason to want a relationship, but people shouldn’t establish crappy relationships in order to have a family. Nor should I establish a crappy relationship in order to have regular sex. It has to be part of a good, positive relationship. Get it?

      You use your own road blocks to ensure a man doesn’t date you seriously or with the intention of getting to know you better.

      Not only do all the men I’ve dated know me very, very well – they know me for years.

      You’re the one announcing on your first couple dates that you won’t have a threeway and telling men what you will and won’t do in the bedroom.

      I thought I made it clear that someone annoyed me by asking a question that I found inappropriate on the first date, and I answered him. Also, I did not say that I “announced” anything on any particular date: I specifically said “WHEN” the topic of sexual preference comes up (that could be first month. Third week. Fourth date. Whenever) I let him know what my attitude about threeways is, as opposed to not saying anything about it until we have already incorporated sex into our relationship and he starts asking for threeways.

      You’ve offered several examples- 2 broken engagements…separated bedrooms with men you’ve lived with

      How can I have a broken engagement when I have never accepted a proposal??

      Yes – I used to go into relationships with men I liked as friends. This was a mistake – I’ve realized it and admitted it. That was then, this is now. Now I am doing my best to avoid dating men who should only be good friends, and to find a relationship with someone that I feel enough to commit to long term – or stay single.

      hyper-sexualized conversation with men you’re not even dating,

      When did this happen??

      miscalculated commentary about wanting to wake up with a man but aren’t ready to have sex
      Yes. I made a mistake. Again – I didn’t blame anyone for it: I realized it, and if you’ve noticed, the one and only time I ever asked for advice is when I fucked up and didn’t see the best way of putting it right. And my motivation was to make sure that I didn’t make my mistake become the guy’s problem.

      Have I ever claimed not to have made any mistakes?

      You aren’t looking for an emotion based relationship and just want consistent sex, but the sex has to come when you’re “ready” for it or “feel what you need to feel.” Is it about feelings or is it about fucking? It can’t be both.

      Who says it can’t be both?? I want to fuck someone that I have deep feelings for. What’s wrong with that?

      Seriously, Moxie: do you read with any attention at all?? Or did you feel the need to lash out for some reason? I noticed you spent a lot more time discussing me personally than countering any of the points I made in my post. But for the part you did take a stab at:

      It’s not about manipulating. You’re grandstanding. It’s about increasing your chances of getting to know the person better

      Yes. You want to get to know the person better. If you tell the truth, you won’t get what you want. So lie. But that’s not manipulating? As Paula says: if you have to hide the truth in order to get the desired outcome, that means that the truth is actually relevent to the person. To mislead them is to be manipulative.

      You just said in another thread that someone who expects exclusivity after one or two dates is unrealistic. Now you are you advocating that someone indulge that unrealistic expectation by being honest. Which is it?

      Sigh…No Moxie. What I said is that expecting exclusivity after one date is unrealistic. Why not be honest rather than indulge that unrealistic expection. Get it??

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 14 Thumb down 13

      Reply

  11. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    Diplomacy is a well-known concept as well as an common English word. Go look it up. I don’t know how to say it in Dutch, Maargen, but I’m sure they have a word for it and fully understand the concept too.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

    Reply

    • Paula Says:

      In an informal or social sense, diplomacy is the employment of tact to gain strategic advantage or to find mutually acceptable solutions to a common challenge, one set of tools being the phrasing of statements in a non-confrontational, or polite manner.

      –from Wikipedia

      If you have to..lie. Yeah, I said it. Same goes if you mess up and call someone by the wrong name or send them a text meant for someone else. In the early stages, as DMN has said, dating is about diplomacy.

      –from Moxie

      I think all successful relationships are about good diplomacy, not just dating and not just “early on.” ….Well-intended manipulation and deceit can and does benefit both parties.

      –from DMN

      So if “dating is about diplomacy,” and “diplomacy is about lying, manipulation and deceit,” then Moxie and DMN are saying “dating is about lying, manipulation and deceit.” That’s not grandstanding, that’s the application of simple logic.

      Neither of you have to clarify if you don’t want to, but I would think you would if I’m not understanding you correctly. Otherwise, from “employment of tact” or “phrasing of statements in a non-confrontational, or polite manner” to “if you have to lie” or “well-intended manipulation and deceit” is a huge leap inconsistent with the “well-known concept” of diplomacy.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 7

      Reply

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        What you’re trying to do is get people to engage you because either your bored or you just need attention. Both DMN and I have addressed these points numerous times. Just because you have an inordinate amount of time on your hands doesn’t mean we’re required to entertain you. Get a job at Target if things are slow.

        If DMN wants to engage you, he can. I’m not doing it. From this point on, I’m just deleting comments that are attempts to antagonize people in to useless, off topic debates. I;m sure you’ll reply back with something logical and sound. Don’t care.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 14

        Reply

        • Paula Says:

          Thanks for attempt #57 to ignore the illogical fallacies and duck the consequences of your words by psychoanalyzing any and everyone who might question you about them, otherwise known as “shooting the messenger” or, if you like the Latin, an ad hominem” attack.

          I don’t know if Maargen has a therapist already, but I’ve personally found in-person sessions with a licensed professional who knows me to be much more effective.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 10

          Reply

      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        DMN angry! DMN smash!

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0

        Reply

      • Maargen Says:

        Paula – both Moxie and DMN are equating the concept of “diplomacy” with the concept of “lying” – which is a completely incorrect application of what DMN admits is actually a well-known concept as well as an common English word.

        The reason they do this is because to say that “dating is about lying” is completely ludicrous, and as you pointed out – harmful advice.

        Saying “dating is about diplomacy” is definitely more reasonable (and has the benefit of being true), but it really does nothing to justify lying.

        I know you’ve figured out all of the above, but I don’t really know if there’s any way to make either DMN or Moxie understand any of it.

        You notice that neither of them can actually explain themselves. They claim that asking them to is going “off topic” (while going into my personal history is, presumably, “on topic”:-)) I guess we can’t expect too much from people who advocate Well-intended manipulation and deceit , and who admittedly don’t care about logic and soundness.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 7

        Reply

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          DMN and I have explained ourselves countless times in countless ways. We both seem to find explaining anything to you pointless, because you take a specific, innocuous point and try to make a federal case out of it so you can pander for attention and talk about yourself. Super duper. You don’t lie, you don’t believe in it, your approach has been incredibly successful for you. We’re both very happy for you.

          I wrote a post called Everbody Lies. I don’t avoid saying dating involves lying. Never have.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 11

          Reply

          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            Another question, since you’re so big on honesty and integrity. Remember when you told that story about the guy you’re dating and how you told him – under no circumstances – would you have unprotected sex with him? And then he proceeded to do EXACTLY what you told him you didn’t want him to do and had sex with you without a condom. (Because you two were half awake and you just had NO IDEA that he wasn’t wearing a condom.) You decided to give him the benefit of the doubt?

            So, deception is acceptable as long as it aligns with your inner narrative? Someone shouldn’t lie about dating other people because that’s dishonest. But if someone ignores your boundaries and feigns ignorance that’s okay?

            The funny thing is…you and Paula both have probably been lied to more times than you’ve been told the truth. You just choose not to acknowledge it.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 10

            Reply

            • Paula Says:

              It’s *because* I’ve been lied to that it’s important to me to tell the truth, and that subsequent people I date feel the same way. You know, the “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” thing, which is a pretty good principle to live by, even if you’re not a Christian.

              In fact, someone who isn’t a Golden Rule adherent…that’s a big sign they’re a bad dater, so that should really go at the top of the list.

              Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 4

              Reply

            • Maargen Says:

              See Moxie: this is why you’re having a problem here:

              You gave advice that people should lie when dating. I disagreed, and stated the crux of my argument very, very clearly:

              “Such as: stop manipulative dating. If you make someone think you’re seeing no one else and they make decisions based on that, you are standing on quicksand. There is no guarantee that they won’t find out the truth. If they do: BOOM to your make-believe, fantasy “relationship”.

              If on the other hand, you don’t lie and manipulate, there is no “truth” to come out. It is perfectly reasonable to date more than one person until…. The person who does not realize this is the insecure, unreasonable person who can’t deal with reality – and who shouldn’t be dating (add that one to Moxie’s list). Progressing with reasonable, secure people who you communicate well with, without lies, leads to the strong relationships based on reality that last a lifetime

              If you would argue that no – lying leads to better, more secure relationships than honesty does, and PROVE YOUR POINT, then we could stay on topic and get somewhere.

              Instead you ignore the main point all together. You rant, you delete posts, you get personal, and you project (YOU talk about me, but then MY point is to talk about me??)

              In the end you make very little sense.

              You twist “diplomacy” to mean “lying”. You call a mistake “lying”, not because you understand anything about the actor’s motivation,state of mind, or intent, but because you think representing it that way makes your point.

              I don’t know about Paula, but as I have said: I am very good friends with the guy’s I’ve dated. For years. It is very, very VERY rare that I go on four dates with a guy, and he ever drops out of my life. Three – maybe I won’t ever see him again.

              I’m friends with guys I’ve dated over a 20+ year period. Some of them are married (only one subsequent divorce). Some of them I’ve set up with my girfriends. I’ve met and become friends with the women they date after me. I see their lives, their lifestyles, meet their families, travel with them.

              I don’t say that these guys don’t lie because of the way they are with me. It’s because of the pattern of behaviour I see from them over years of closeness, and with every woman they date. If they were liars, Moxie, I would have known by now. Have they told a little white lie now and then? Probably. But not so you’d notice.

              You know what makes this level of friendship possible? The level of respect, honesty, caring and goodwill that existed between us from the day we met until today. Even the guys I broke up with when they thought we were on the marriage track are friends now (after a period of lashing out that didn’t last long). And believe me: I have never sought out someone I hurt that badly. When the smoke clears they realize that I never lied to them, and treated them with respect from the beginning to the end: as they did me. Was I confused myself? Yes. Did I deliberately manipulate them? Never. This is what relationships that are not based on manipulations, lying, snooping, possessiveness, insecurity and jealousy are like in my experience.

              I don’t care if you want to focus on my specifically – I’ll answer any question you put to me. But why don’t you just answer this:

              I’m not asking IF people lie. I know they do. (I also see the chaotic results). What I’m asking is: In what way do you think manipulative lies (by that I mean lies that are meant to deceive a person into following a course that they would not follow if they knew the truth) lead to better, more stable relationships than telling the truth does?

              I think knowing what is important to you upfront (you don’t want to date someone who is dating multiple people? Then eliminate this candidate. You don’t want to date someone with kids? Then eliminate this candidate. They can date people who don’t mind not being exclusive until later on, or someone who doesn’t mind kids) makes it easier to find the right person for you, rather than what appears to be the right person, but isn’t. I say lying to avoid facing dealbreakers creates a faultline in the relationship that wouldn’t exist if you told the truth – and dated the right person.

              I’ll say it another way: I believe that it is better to tell the truth than lie because when people make decisions based on reality, the decisions are sounder and lead to better results than decisions made based on misperceptions and falsehoods.

              If you disagree that manipulative lying (not concerned with white lies now) does not distort reality, please explain why.

              If you believe that decisions based on distortions are better and lead to better outcomes than decisions based on reality – please explain why.

              And try to stick to the topic this time.

              Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 9

              Reply

              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                In what way do you think manipulative lies (by that I mean lies that are meant to deceive a person into following a course that they would not follow if they knew the truth) lead to better, more stable relationships than telling the truth does?

                Let’s try this:

                LIE
                Guy sends a woman a text meant for someone else. Woman asks what he meant by the text. He makes up a lie and says it was for a friend.

                MANIPULATIVE LIE:
                Guy wants to have sex. Woman asks him if he has a girlfriend. He lies and says no.

                The difference is intention of the lie and the “damages” that could be incurred by the lie.

                A lie to spare feelings or avoid an unnecessary conversation isn’t, in my mind, bad.

                A lie to get what you want and and to maliciously mislead or deceive someone is bad.

                I’ve never said, “Hey people, if you’re in an exclusive relationship and want a piece on the side, LIE!” But that’s how you took the statement, even though I qualified it with an example. This is why I don’t respond to your inane and circular lines of questioning. You argue just to argue. You don’t have a stake in the outcome of the argument. You just like to argue and talk about yourself, as witnessed with this very comment. You write your comments and personal jabs directed at me or DMN or whomever, and then you act all shocked and aghast if we dare do the same thing to you. . But when you do it, apparently, there’s some greater good and excuse. You malign and critique people and say it’s to support your argument. But if others do it, they’re “lashing out and getting personal.”

                If you would argue that no – lying leads to better, more secure relationships than honesty does, and PROVE YOUR POINT, then we could stay on topic and get somewhere.

                You’re the one with the claim that it leads to chaos. You’re the one posing the argument. Burden of proof is on YOU, Maargen. Cite some evidence, other than your personal history which is distorted by your personal investment in the outcome, that lying – any form of lying – creates chaos and does not help a relationship.

                I’ll say it another way: I believe that it is better to tell the truth than lie because when people make decisions based on reality,

                This is dating we’re talking about. Not buying a home. Feelings get involved. Perspectives get skewed. Rational thinking goes out the window. We personalize things. Finding out that a guy is dating other women because he goes out of his way to tell a woman on the first or second date is going to work against him AND her. Because she is likely to wonder why he’s telling her that, or feel like she’s competing or that he’s being manipulative. Rational? No! But it’s how some people think. The goal is get another date and another and slowly figure out if that person is someone with whom you are compatible. Throwing in unnecessary curveballs is going to slow down if not totally derail that process.

                Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 4

                Reply

                • Paula Says:

                  >>Guy sends a woman a text meant for someone else. Woman asks what he meant by the text. He makes up a lie and says it was for a friend.

                  But this wasn’t the scenario, was it? The OP from that post didn’t say his text was for a friend (which would have been the truth). He pretended it was for her and made up a lie about dancing. Even your scenario presented isn’t a lie: the text was for someone else, and he said it was for someone else.

                  There are certainly lies you can make without consequences, either because you’ll never be found out, or because the subject of the lie is inconsequential. But the sign of a compulsive liar is that he or she will lie about everything, even things that don’t matter. So if I find someone who will lie about things to spare my feelings or to avoid conversations, I’m going to assume that when the stakes are higher — when there’s something they want and real “damages” at stake, they’re going to lie too. I’m also going to assume that their conversation skills are not very developed: if there are all kinds of little things they don’t want to talk about, then are they going to be able to talk about the important things that matter, like their feelings and their relationship intentions?

                  Why would someone lie about things that don’t matter, and not lie about things that do? That’s a moral compass without any fixed poles. If I find that out on a first or second date, then they are not ready to date me, and I’d rather be single than to date them.

                  Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 4

                  Reply

                  • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                    But this wasn’t the scenario, was it?

                    I was simply offering examples to explain my definitions.

                    Even your scenario presented isn’t a lie: the text was for someone else, and he said it was for someone else.

                    In my example, he lies and says it’s for a friend. It’s a lie because the implication is that the text is for someone platonic. Not someone he’s dating. You’re doing the splitting hairs thing.

                    There are certainly lies you can make without consequences, either because you’ll never be found out, or because the subject of the lie is inconsequential.

                    Um. Yes. That’s what I’ve been saying. It’s what I said in the other thread about the text messages. You disagreed with that. Now you’re saying lying is okay, as long as the subject of the lie is inconsequential. Now we can spend comments defining “inconsequential.”

                    Why would someone lie about things that don’t matter, and not lie about things that do? That’s a moral compass without any fixed poles

                    Because that’s what many people do, Paula. Just because you can’t find a logical explanation to explain that phenomenon doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It just means that you can’t understand it or believe it.

                    So if I find someone who will lie about things to spare my feelings or to avoid conversations, I’m going to assume that when the stakes are higher — when there’s something they want and real “damages” at stake, they’re going to lie too.

                    You’re drilling the argument down to minute details that really are just about you and your personal issues with honesty and trust and lying. Nobody else is chiming in with you except for Maargen, and you’re both basically doing the exact same thing, which is just talking in circles and repeating yourself until the other person cries Uncle. Getting someone to do that is a hollow victory and doesn’t mean you’re right. It just means nobody cares enough to debate it with you.

                    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 3

                    Reply

                    • Paula Says:

                      >>Now you’re saying lying is okay, as long as the subject of the lie is inconsequential.

                      Nope, never said that. I said you can get away with certain lies, but that doesn’t justify them. That’s miles away from because you can get away with certain lies, it’s OK to do them. That’s like saying I could find a homeless guy without any friends or relatives, so murdering him would be OK because I could get away with it.

                      >>You’re drilling the argument down to minute details that really are just about you and your personal issues with honesty and trust and lying.

                      Nope, just honoring the distinction that you yourself created between little lies and big lies, or lies and non-manipulative lies. According to you, it’s the minute details (not to be confused with the truth) that make the difference about whether a lie counts or not, if all that matters is an intent to manipulate. And I just love how a belief that honesty and trust are good things is now something to be considered a “personal issue.”

                      >>Just because you can’t find a logical explanation to explain that phenomenon doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

                      I have found a logical explanation: it’s that they’re a compulsive liar:

                      A chronic (compulsive, pathological) liar is someone who lies about things for no apparent reason. They will lie about small, irrelevant details as well as important matters. For chronic liars, lying is a habit and everything is fair game.

                      >>Nobody else is chiming in with you except for Maargen

                      Maybe because they don’t want to be personally attacked and have everything they’ve ever posted thrown in their face, even when not relevant to the topic (like the fact she slept with a guy without a condom, which doesn’t have anything to do with a lie but was designed to make her look bad.)

                      There are a number of people here who have the ability to debate topics rationally, without getting angry and launching personal attacks, and the topics die a natural death after a day or two after an enjoyable exchange of views. It’s when people get angry and personal that they go on and on, usually because logic and rationality go out the window and people are responding to arguments that no longer make any sense or defending themselves from personal attacks instead of flaws in their argument. Occasionally, someone will cry uncle, but more often, they give up because their last argument was so ludicrous or obviously wrong that they have no place else to go.

                      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 10

                    • chuckrock Says:

                      Paula is correct. The main reason why I haven’t chimed i is because there seems to be a lot of personal attacks going on and I know i have said a lot of personal stuff on here.

                      For the record, I support Maargen and Paula’s point of view for the most part regarding lying and diplomacy in dating. Diplomacy (under it’s real definition -not DMN’s) is good in dating. Lying is not. Omission is fine, until a topic comes up in conversation. Once it does, that omission is a lie.

                      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 8

                    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

                      I don’t have my own private definition of “diplomacy” nor do I need one to be right.

                      It means what it means.

                      The bottom line is if your dating or relationship strategy is working for you (hint, it’s not) or you don’t feel you need a strategy (hint, you do) then by all means adopt whatever definition of “diplomacy” you want.

                      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 7

                  • Angeline Says:

                    Few people are engaging this debate because we’ve already covered this ground, and the wrangling of the meaning right out of perfectly acceptable and reasonable terms such as diplomacy and tact is like pounding sand.

                    Paula, when I made the comment that someone who is unable to discern when it is appropriate to NOT blurt the truth is as frustrating to deal with as someone with autism or Aspergers, you stated quite firmly that you do understand and employ tact in your relationships and friendships. That’s why this deliberate obtuseness over precisely the same issue is frustrating and seen as baiting.

                    To reiterate the original point: To deliberately mislead when asked on the issue of seeing other people is lying. To not throw the fact that you’re seeing other people in your new date’s face UNASKED is tact. Diplomacy.

                    Expecting exclusivity from the first date is delusional and self-centered. But being unable to tell the difference in lying and tact makes one not only not ready to date, but undateable period. And most certainly incapable of sustaining anything long term unless the other party has superhuman ability to put up with this kind of verbal masturbation.

                    And maybe that’s why you’re single.

                    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0

                    Reply

                    • Paula Says:

                      I’m not the one who’s having trouble getting it, Angelina. Tact doesn’t include throwing something in someone’s face. That doesn’t mean that tact includes lying. Deliberately throwing something in someone’s face = bad. Deliberately telling them something untrue = bad.

                      As between the two, I personally think lying is worse, because it has the ability to erode trust, but I also think it is very very rare that you have to choose between the two, and usually only when an insecure person is trying to interrogate you and ask questions that are none of their business. In that case, there’s usually a deflection that works, and usually they’ve revealed enough about who they are that you may no longer be trying so hard to impress them or be with them.

                      There are people who want to condone lying by saying that means that you have to disclose everything that is going on in your life and that if you don’t lie, that means you lack tact.

                      >>>But being unable to tell the difference in lying and tact makes one not only not ready to date, but undateable period.

                      Agreed, both that there is a difference in the two, and that you shouldn’t be using one to substitute for the other if you want to be a healthy dateable person.

                      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 12

                    • Rachel Says:

                      I’ve written comments and deleted them because it seems futile to respond. No matter how sound or rational someone’s defense may be certain people pull out a point and build a new argument on top of it. The debating never ends. When I see a long pink thread I skim the comments or skip them all together.

                      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

                    • Maargen Says:

                      Bravo Angelina: you hit it on the head

                      To deliberately mislead when asked on the issue of seeing other people is lying. To not throw the fact that you’re seeing other people in your new date’s face UNASKED is tact. Diplomacy.

                      Expecting exclusivity from the first date is delusional and self-centered. But being unable to tell the difference in lying and tact makes one not only not ready to date, but undateable period

                      But since Moxie and DMN are the only ones who seem to think that lying and tact are the same thing, don’t you think it’s a bit harsh to call them undateable?? Especially Moxie, who is actually giving dating advice!

                      I thought I was harsh, but gee A – you’re even more blunt than I am!

                      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 11

                    • Sharon Says:

                      The obtuseness and frequent subject changing is annoying but it’s not why I mostly lurk. It’s the irrational volatility, extreme sarcasm and defensiveness from some of the commentors that I avoid. Some people here scare me with how calm and pleasant they are in one comment and how angry they get in the next.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

                • Maargen Says:

                  WOW!

                  I only bother with computer-related stuff during the day when things are slow at the office, so I’ve been out of the debate since yesterday evening. So I get to the office, get some stuff done, hit the downtime, check to see what you crazy kids are up to and what do I see??

                  Moxie’s had a breakthrough!!!

                  A lie to get what you want and and to maliciously mislead or deceive someone is bad.

                  Yeah. And that is ALL I was saying from the very beginning!

                  What a far cry from If someone asks you, on the first date or two, if you’re dating others… at the very least play it down or try to avoid answering the question directly. If you have to..lie.

                  And

                  It’s not about manipulating. You’re grandstanding. It’s about increasing your chances of getting to know the person better.

                  And

                  He’d have been shooting himself in the foot by being honest.

                  In the statements above, you’re clearly advising people to lie to get what they want (What do we want? Another date. How do we get it? Lie)

                  See what happens when you actually focus, Moxie, and stick to the point? You end up getting the point!

                  Now you could have actually reversed your position much, much sooner by agreeing with my first post. I say nothing in that post that contradicts what you finally admit here. Instead of focusing on what I said, though, you chose to take time to look up every other thing I’ve ever posted. Then you say that I argue just to argue. Seriously, Moxie – don’t you see how ridiculous that is??

                  Almost every single word in the rest of your post is useless – for instance, your advice is for people to go out of their way to lie to get what they want, but when you finally retract that, you feel the need to say that a guy shouldn’t go out of his way to tell a woman on the first date that he’s dating other women. Despite the fact that no one up to that point had even suggested such a thing (I don’t know about the stuff that was posted today – I havent read that far yet)

                  Another bit of ridiculousness in the form of a reality check exercise:

                  Look at my first post on this subject: (http://atwys.baltimorewebsitedesign.net/2011/08/24/signs-that-theyre-a-bad-dater-or-not-ready-to-date/#comment-9694)

                  What percentage of that post is about me? What percentage of that post is about you, or anyone specific?

                  Now – look at your response to me (http://atwys.baltimorewebsitedesign.net/2011/08/24/signs-that-theyre-a-bad-dater-or-not-ready-to-date/#comment-9696)

                  What percentage of your response is about me??

                  So: when you say that my objective is to talk about me, when you talk about my inane and circular logic and you complain about my jabs at you and DMN and others, do you see why you come off to anyone who’s really paying attention as illogical and hypocritical?

                  I do understand that when you finally focused you couldn’t help but see my original point, and the rest of the post was designed to bury the lead and save face (including pretending to think that I was shocked and aghast at anything said to me). But it still seems pretty pathetic to me that you felt the need to do that.

                  A lie to get what you want and and to maliciously mislead or deceive someone is bad.

                  Yeah. THAT.

                  Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 9

                  Reply

          • Maargen Says:

            I don’t avoid saying dating involves lying. Never have.

            And THAT’S why you’re single!

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 12

            Reply

          • Vox Says:

            I missed the Everybody Lies post – was it a while ago? If it was, perhaps it’s a good time to do another about lying, given the strong opinions about it.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

            Reply

        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          Interesting. Just had a quick look at “Diplomacy” on Wikipedia and wondering why you guys didn’t reference the part about how espionage is a crucial component. How unpleasant to think of that! (Espionage by the way means spying, ie deceit in case you want to get into a debate about that now too.). You guys have a very diplomatic definition of diplomacy don’t you? Ok, you can go back to arguing over definitions of words now.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 2

          Reply

          • Maargen Says:

            Umm…

            I can absolutely not see the relevence of this argument.

            Are you now advocating spying on our dates as well?? Bug their car, or homes maybe? What exactly does this “espionage” have to do with anything?? What is your point here?

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5

            Reply

            • DrivingMeNutes Says:

              Earlier you were arguing about what was meant by diplomacy. This last comment of mine is relevant to that point in that diplomacy has many components including those you claim are destructive, such as deception. Although I see you are now advocating “white lies” which is so clearly different than regular lying and diplomacy that your argument makes perfect sense. Fyi, That was sarcasm. Sarcasm is a form of communication where you intend a meaning other than the literal words. In this case, I am using it to make fun of you. I hope this clears things up.

              Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 3

              Reply

              • Maargen Says:

                Are you saying that diplomacy involves lying? OK. Whatever.

                Doesn’t address my argument that people who lie in order to manipulate others into doing what they want are bad daters.

                Oh – I don’t mind you making fun of me at all. Totally cool with it :-)

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 6

                Reply

  12. Devon Brown Says:

    I love hijacked threads! Thank goodness I didn’t want to actually read people’s comments about the signs that someone is a bad dater or not ready to date! Heaven forbid that I would think I would find comments related to, you know, the topic of the post!

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 4

    Reply

    • Joey Giraud Says:

      The site design makes it easy; when you see Moxie in a back and forth and the posts veer to the right of the screen, just scroll down until it stops.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      Reply

  13. pistola Says:

    It seems to me that the debate here is not entirely about lying. It’s more about “what do you tell and when?” Slightly different question. When do you tell someone something that you suspect may be important or a deal breaker for them? First, second, third date, two months in…when?

    The difficulty in the answer lies within the reality that you don’t know what importance various pieces of information have for other people. To some people a history of addiction is a deal breaker, to others it isn’t. Same with sexual behaviors, attitudes about money, substance use…There’s no way to assess whether or not you share values with a person without taking the time to get to know them. And most people would prefer not to disclose sensitive information to someone they’ve only gone on a couple of dates with. I think that’s pretty natural. Nobody wants sensitive details of their personal life given to a stranger.

    Add to this the fact that every situation is different. Someone who doesn’t tell you about an occasional sexual fetish? Might be alright. Someone who doesn’t tell you he likes to swing 4 nights a week? Probably not so much. Etcetera.

    The question appears to rest within the inquiry, “Is non-disclosure the same as lying?”

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Paula Says:

      I don’t know about everyone else, but non-disclosure is a lot more contextual than lying, and I think generally that it is *not* the same as lying. There are times, certainly, like chuckrock’s situation described above, where it had the same effect as lying, because she knew how he felt about kids, and deliberately chose not to disclose the information that was a dealbreaker for him, so she was trying to manipulate him by having sex and delaying the disclosure as long as possible. Not all omissions are “lies of omission,” but it would be hard to argue that that situation wasn’t.

      But given the choice between a “white lie,” and “non-disclosure,” non-disclosure should win every time. That’s the diplomacy that dating should be about: the employment of tact. I’ve never advocated dating Asperger’s, or acting like a Jim Carrey character where everything that pops into your head comes out of your mouth, no matter how hurtful and cruel it would be. Always be mindful of the kindest way to say something that isn’t a lie, and you’ll find that it becomes second nature.

      And, on the other side, if you don’t want people to lie to you, you shouldn’t ask them questions, especially in the early stages of getting to know them, that either compel them to lie or be cruel to you, where deflection isn’t possible. Unless something’s a dealbreaker, think about the “ask me no questions, I’ll tell you no lies” credo and take a relaxed approach to getting to know them, allowing them to put their best foot forward without feeling compelled to tell you what you want to hear, even if it isn’t the truth.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 4

      Reply

  14. Charlie Says:

    If something innocuous causes them to bring up a recent ex in a sour way, don’t get too attached as they aren’t ready to date.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Trouble Says:

      If they tell you on the date that they aren’t sure if they’re over their ex, they’re not over their ex.

      If a person is recently separated, and tells you that they’re ready to date, 9 times out of 10, they aren’t ready to date, even though they almost definitely think they are.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

      Reply

  15. Trouble Says:

    Here’s one from my history that I should have paid attention to:

    If a guy tells you that his spouse of several years left him by text message, it may not be because she was evil and mean. It may be because he’s crazy. Just a tip. hopefully you can learn from my stupidity.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

    Reply

  16. dimplz Says:

    I think this list works a lot as it doesn’t start to overwhelm one with a bunch of deal breakers. The social media thing on dates is something I have seen people do, and I think it’s personally a huge mistake. As Moxie has mentioned, oversharing tends to become a bad habit, and having so many people be privy to the details of your dates leads them to believe they have a say in what happens in your life. It also makes them think they know you better, even if they aren’t an actual friend of yours, because you’re freely putting your personal business out there on a frequent basis.

    As an aside, I really haven’t been commenting much because I’m tired of reading the same opinions over and over again. If you disagree with someone, it’s not always necessary to post a diatribe. Thumbs up or down; no one is falling all over themselves to read what you think about EVERY comment. Join a book club if you want to dissect text and discuss philosophical ideas.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Joey Giraud Says:

      oversharing tends to become a bad habit

      I’ve gotten to be a great listener in my middle age; people just love a good listener.

      I suppose it feels great to talk about yourself. Must activate a pleasure spot in the brain..

      Now I notice how self-indulgent talking about yourself all the time really is. And it’s getting to be tedious to listen when you perceive it as indulging a narcissist.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

      Reply

  17. Breebree Says:

    So Moxie do you think that folks (men particularly) if they are unemployed due to a lay off for example or young fresh out of college in their early 20’s who are still looking for a good job or who just don’t make much money and have a house, car, several bills or debt or loans they are trying to pay off and maybe a child from a previous marriage or relationship they have to care for should Not date at all?
    Should a person who is broke or doesn’t have much extra money to spend not look for love and a mate like everyone else and not go out on dates and have fun and have a social life????
    Just curious about your thoughts……

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • nathan Says:

      Seems to me that placing monetary requirements on a date is a class issue. People with disposable income or who are more well off tend to expect a date – especially men – to demonstrate some financial stability of some sort. In other words, guy doesn’t want to go out for a fancy dinner or expensive drinks = red flag for some women.

      For people who are broke, poor, or working class, though, these kinds of expectations are probably less prominent. In fact, being able to demonstrate that you don’t waste money is a more valued trait because there isn’t much to begin with. The dude or woman that blows their whole paycheck on booze and entertainment might be fun to hang with, but the constant begging for help with bills, food mooching, and the rest isn’t attractive at all.

      Moxie said something about going out for a drink, and a guy saying he’d prefer coffee because it was cheaper. Now, if you’re having a single drink together, that’s not a huge expectation. If it were me, I’d be totally fine with coffee and saving a few bucks, but I don’t think that going out for a beer or glass of wine is something that necessarily excludes poorer daters. At the same time, I do have to wonder why not wanting to spend a lot of money on a date is so often automatically assumed to be a sign of trouble.

      To me, when you start considering class differences is when there is an expectation that a fancy meal, expensive entertainment tickets, or multiple rounds of drinks must be included for a date to be worth going on. Or if you expect to spend money most of the time that you go out on dates with a person. It may not be wrong, necessarily, to expect more be spent on your dates – but it definitely speaks to your class background.

      And any judgments you make about another person solely based on the amount of money spent on the first date are coming through a class lens, which might be worth reflecting upon. Because you might be misjudging dates who simply approach money and dating differently, and who aren’t deliberately being “cheap” or dodgy about money.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

      Reply

      • Really Rosie Says:

        There is a huge difference between being frugal/money-smart/budget-minded and being cheap. Having divorced the junk food junkie who couldn’t balance a checkbook I am thrilled to be living a debt-free lifestyle on a third of my previous income (and we are not talking NYC money here). For fear of being drug into the “diplomacy” rants above, the coffee drinking date can be suggested in a more diplomatic way than because “of money reasons.” Actually, I think I like the word “tact” in this context better. :)

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

        Reply

  18. L. Says:

    Glad you posted these. Yes, these can be red flags. What about woman though? I’ve been finding plenty of those who are “note ready to date”. What are some warning signs there?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Breebree Says:

      L imo signs of women not ready to date are:
      She doesn’t want to spend much time with you
      When you ask her out there is always an excuse as to why she can’t go out with you.
      She doesn’t want you to spend the nite
      She doesn’t want to accept any gifts you may wnt to give her (this may happen because she knows she’s “not that into you”) and she doesn’t want to string you along.
      She doesn’t call you often or return phone calls often
      She constantly talks about the past and ex’s and/or divorce
      She male bashes a lot
      She tells you she has been hurt many times before and says she has Trust Issues and doesn’t trust anyone.
      She sleeps with you immediately….like on the 1st or 2nd date……sometimes because women know full well how precious there pu**y is they will more readily sleep with a man they don’t care much about….but if a woman really likes and cares for a man she may hold out on the sex because she wants a long-lasting relationship with him and figures that if she makes him wait a while he will be less likely to “hit it and quit it”…sometimes if she sleep with you fast that can be a sign that she doesn’t care about you and if you stick around or not.

      Those are just a few…I’m sure many other folks have some more. Hope thats helpful…*smile*

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

      Reply

  19. Paula Says:

    Another important red flag for me are signs of anger or control issues. Do they come unglued when the slightest little thing goes wrong? Are they rude and condescending to the wait staff when there are service issues? Do they make decisions or speak on your behalf without consulting you? Do they exhibit hostility towards exes, family members, or work colleagues?

    Everyone is going to be putting their best foot forward at first, but if they can’t stop being angry or controlling towards or around someone they’ve just met, you can bet that it’s only going to get worse when they know you well enough to think they have grounds.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

    Reply

  20. Trouble Says:

    Here’s a red flag for me: the person who never stops talking about themselves–probably not ready to date.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

    Reply

    • Trouble Says:

      Here’s another one…a person who makes every theoretical conversation into a personal contest? Also, probably not ready to date, and might want to see a therapist about his/her control issues.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 3

      Reply

Leave a Reply

© 2013-2017 And That's Why You're Single All Rights Reserved