How Does He Avoid The Friendzone?

Name: Dan | | Location: New Orleans , LA |Question: Alright, so I went on a date with this 25 year old woman a few weeks ralph2back.  For the record, I am a 38 year old lawyer.  She is also a professional and we both live in the Big Easy. I met her in an upscale bar and, after chatting for a few hours, I got her number.

Subsequently, we went out to dinner after work because it was convenient and I had been wanting to eat at this new restaurant that recently opened. Afterwards, we went next door to a bar and had a drink.  Once the date ended, I brought her back to where her car was parked and she said she had a great time and gave me a peck on the cheek. She said she would be busy the next few days– vacation and due to a friend coming to visit– but to text her. The date itself was okay–not the worst and not the best. But, I thought there was enough interest to continue.

In any event, I texted her three (3) days later and told her I had fun and was looking forward to seeing her again.  So, I asked her to lunch for Tuesday of the upcoming week.  She said yes.  Well, Monday, she texted me she could not make it because she was feeling sick (she partied too much over the weekend) and would like to reschedule for the following Tuesday. I texted back sure, that would be fine. She also said to feel free to contact her before then.

She then calls me Monday night to tell me she can not make it for lunch because she forgot she had to attend a work-related training session out of town.  However, she could do dinner that evening or lunch the following days. So, I said dinner would be fine and told her to call me when she was ready. For your information, out-of-town means she was traveling to Baton Rouge, Louisiana’s state capital, which is about an hour and a half away from New Orleans.

Well, despite my doubts, she called me and we ended up going to dinner. However, during dinner, she
blurted out that she was not looking for anything serious or a relationship because she had just moved back and, instead, wanted time to concentrate on herself. I thought to myself why are we here then? In any event, I made it through dinner and drove her back to where her car was parked.  Again, all I got was a peck on the cheek.  Later that night, she sent me a text stating that the food was good, she had a fun time and blah blah blah. I texted her back stating I had a good time and thanks for coming.

Look, I know it’s over and I’m not going to dwell on it–too much. Plus, I don’t do the “friendzone” deal. If a woman tells me she just wants to be friends, I move on. However,  what I don’t understand is how she went from hot to cold in a few days and after two (2) dates?  I mean, before our second date, the signs were there that she was interested such as responding to my texts, answering when I called and returning my calls. Also, I don’t know many women who wo
uld still make a dinner date after attending a long and boring training session, suffering through traffic and driving for two (2) hours if they were not interested. My sister says that I should keep in contact because sometimes women say things that don’t make any sense.  However, she did say to treat this relationship casually and don’t invest in it.  My friend, Karen, says she was looking for a free meal(s) and to move on. Yet, another friend told me you must have said something during dinner that she did not like.

Anyway, if it was me, I don’t want a repeat. What are your thoughts?

|Age: 38

 

Your thoughts?

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126 Responses to “How Does He Avoid The Friendzone?”

  1. Paula Says:

    Hilarious graphic…

    Coming right after a post about considerable age differences, I think although she had a nice time and enjoyed your company, that during the lag time between dates (and maybe with her friend in town), she thought about it and decided she didn’t want to be involved with someone your age. Or, it could have been that she was on the fence about you in terms of attraction, decided to give it a second date to see, but realized that she just wasn’t feeling it.

    Why did she do the second date? I think she might have felt bad for having to reschedule (I mean, canceling a Tuesday date because you partied too hard over the weekend sounds like a flimsy excuse to me, or the sign of a serious alcohol problem.) So she felt like she needed to go through with it after pulling something like that.

    I’m not sure you did anything to be in the friend zone, except that she was never fully into you otherwise.

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  2. Capt. Jack Sparrow Says:

    Well, the 13 year gap is a big difference, obviously not unheard of but not exactly common. It’s likely she just wasn’t into you. I don’t know, but I’m wondering if age differences are more carefully considered and avoided in areas outside major cities like NY and LA. Anyway. Keep at it.

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  3. Dimplz Says:

    Your friend Karen us right.

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    • Dimplz Says:

      Us=is. Also, this is probably the reason you don’t want to date someone in their 20s when you’re pushing 40. Canceling dates because of a hangover is tacky, but then again, it’s what young people tend to do.

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  4. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    Couple of things since we have carte blanche.

    First, as the OP seems to acknowledge, there is no “friend zone.” This is one of many lies, of the socially acceptable kind, that some people say to other people to spare their feelings when they don’t want to date someone for whatever reason. (The exceptions only prove the rule.). The “friend zone” is the imaginary refuge of the perpetually rejected to avoid the pain of reality. That doesn’t sound like the OP.

    Second, I’m not sure “friend zone” is even what happened here. This sounds like typical disconnect when you first meet someone and the parties aren’t sure of each other. I don’t think a woman telling a guy “I’m not looking for something serious” is necessarily the same as “let’s just be friends.” A 25 year old woman may assume, as I said in my comment to the last post, that a 38 year old man wouldn’t take her seriously anyway. That would be a very astute 25 year old, however, and I could see why you would like her. But, anyway, she may be telling you she wants to date
    casually but doesn’t want you to get all into her or obsess or write letters into dating blogs about her, etc. Though, I think its fair to say she’s not head over heels for you because she would never have suggested “dating casually” if she was interested in you. If it were me, I’d play along and respond if she made effort but I would invest no further energy, mental or otherwise especially because you should be too old and tired to indulge the machinations of a young woman like this.

    Third, if she isn’t interested, we have no idea why and any advice given about why is speculating. We have no information other than location and age, so everyone will say its related to those things. I doubt its the age difference here unless she was unaware of your age and abruptly ended it upon discovery.

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    • chuckrock Says:

      there is no “friend zone.” This is one of many lies, of the socially acceptable kind, that some people say to other people to spare their feelings when they don’t want to date someone for whatever reason. (The exceptions only prove the rule.). The “friend zone” is the imaginary refuge of the perpetually rejected to avoid the pain of reality.

      So what do you call the place in which you only become friends with someone of the opposite sex? You can’t be claiming this doesn’t exist unless you are a social misfit and have no friends of the opposite sex. (and for the record I doubt that is you because you seem to have enough personality to have friends – so this wasn’t an insult.)

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      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        No offense taken.

        My real life personality is very, very different than the impression you might have of me here. I’m duplicitous that way. However, women are extremely forgiving and I do have tons of female friends. To they extent they are real friends and not work colleagues, etc., they are all former lovers or potential lovers or people that I’ve never tried to date because I wasn’t interested (perhaps they thought they were put into friend zone, which would be their misunderstanding). I’ve had tons of dates that went badly and I don’t become friends. I don’t recall any one of these ever “requesting” my friendship but that’s because, I think generally, if I like someone enough to make the effort required to be friends, then I like them enough to date. And my experience is that women are the same way.

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        • Paula Says:

          >>people that I’ve never tried to date because I wasn’t interested (perhaps they thought they were put into friend zone, which would be their misunderstanding).

          I’m curious about this — not trying to pick a fight or start a debate, just trying to understand this phenomenon better from the mind of a guy.

          So if you you become friends with a woman who would consider dating you, but you’ve never tried to date her because you weren’t interested, how is that not deciding she belongs in the friend zone? Are you saying the friend zone doesn’t exist because whether or not you become friends is a consideration independent of whether you’re attracted to her?

          I once had a guy tell me, after we had become very close friends and I had expressed interest in more, that he needed me more as a friend. (Let’s not go into whether he was telling the truth or saying this to spare my feelings.) It seemed like a very clear instance of putting me in the friend zone, and given the pain it caused me, I’m trying very hard to avoid that kind of situation again, so I would like to understand it better.

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          • chuckrock Says:

            So if you you become friends with a woman who would consider dating you, but you’ve never tried to date her because you weren’t interested, how is that not deciding she belongs in the friend zone? Are you saying the friend zone doesn’t exist because whether or not you become friends is a consideration independent of whether you’re attracted to her?

            I almost wrote this same exact question.

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        • Maargen Says:

          To they extent they are real friends and not work colleagues, etc., they are all former lovers or potential lovers or people that I’ve never tried to date because I wasn’t interested (perhaps they thought they were put into friend zone, which would be their misunderstanding).

          It seems in the beginning of this passage you’re referring to women who are “real friends”, but then you say that if the one’s you’ve never tried to date think they’re in the friend zone, it’s their misunderstanding.

          Can you clarify if the “real friends” you haven’t tried to date are in the friend zone, or not?

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      • Paula Says:

        I think chuckrock and DMN are both right, actually. I agree with DMN that the friend zone is a lie that people use to spare people’s feelings when they don’t want to date them, and that if someone is always there, then there’s probably something else going on. But I agree with chuckrock that there are situations where people date, decide they’re not right for each other, and end up being great friends (really, not just where one is pining away and agrees to be friends in an effort to change the other’s mind).

        So the friend zone exists, it just occupies a much more limited territory than people like to think it does. Not all situations where there’s no attraction are because of, or conducive to, friendship.

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        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          I guess I agree with your qualification.

          As I said, if I’m genuinely invested in a woman as a friend, it is unlikely that I would “reject” her in other ways, including sexually. So, there would be no “friend zone,” since we would be hooking up if she really wanted to. I just may not be making any effort. That is her choice.

          More importantly, though, is that I believe other people are behaving similarly, ie that women are not making genuine overtures to be friends with men they aren’t “interested” in. To the extent that it happens, it is an exception. So, we all agree.

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          • Paula Says:

            Harry Burns: Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.
            Sally Albright: So, you’re saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive?
            Harry Burns: No. You pretty much want to nail ‘em too.

            >>When Harry Met Sally

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          • Paula Says:

            Hit send too soon…

            When Harry Met Sally…the movie that gave women perpetual hope that someone who had been a good friend, then part of an awkward hookup, would after decades decide he was in love with her. Great movie, but I’m wondering how much havoc it wreaked in the real world…

            I dunno if women are different, or if I am different, but I don’t want to do all my male friends, and sometimes it’s the lack of attraction that allows the friendship to flourish since the sexual tension doesn’t get in the way and I can open up even more because I’m not trying to impress him.

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        • Maargen Says:

          I agree with DMN that the friend zone is a lie that people use to spare people’s feelings when they don’t want to date them, and that if someone is always there, then there’s probably something else going on

          Totally disagree! “I really like you, but I don’t think dating is the right fit for us. Can we be friends?”

          The above is a completely true statement that generally launches a discussion of why you don’t want to date the person (different lifestyles, different dating attitudes, different timetables, not physically compatible, whatever). Why be friends? Because you have a great time in each other’s company – the same reason you’re friends with members of the same sex, presumably.

          Good people are good people. Why do you have to have sex with them to enjoy their company?

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          • Paula Says:

            Perhaps my post wasn’t clear, as I don’t see anything we disagree with, Maargen (and DMN too, since he agreed with my qualification).

            There are plenty of good reasons to be friends with people of the opposite sex with whom you don’t want to have sex. However, I think a lot of people say they just want to be friends with someone when they’re not sincere about that, because they perceive it as being a less painful way to reject them. If they’re sincere, and there are enough common interests that are likely to spark a friendship, then the friend zone can work — just not when it’s a “white lie”/”non-manipulative lie” to prevent having to disclose your lack of attraction.

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            • Maargen Says:

              Hmm…

              I guess it’s the “lie to spare people’s feelings” that keeps confusing me.

              If someone says they don’t want to date you it seems to me that they are 1. telling you the truth and 2. Not sparing your feelings.

              If it’s the “let’s be friends” part that is meant to spare feelings, this would imply that the offer of friendship isn’t sincere. Maybe sometimes it isn’t, but I think it’s sincere enough of the time to make the “friend zone” a real phenomenon…not a concept that is a socially conventional lie.

              Add DMN’s statement that ” that women are not making genuine overtures to be friends with men they aren’t “interested” in. To the extent that it happens, it is an exception. So, we all agree.” and it reinforces the impression that “the friend zone” is either non-existant or a rarity.

              This is where I disagree. My take is that people you (not you specifically, Paula) like to spend time with and are not sexually attracted to are very very common. The reason you’re not sexually attracted to them may be because they’re the same sex (and you’re not gay), but even if they’re the opposite sex, you still have the same exact interest in them as you have in the friends who are the same sex.

              I guess I don’t think that meeting a person that you want to spend time with but aren’t interested in dating isn’t a rarity at all. I think we do it all the time, as a matter of fact.

              It’s like Seinfeld. Elaine and Jerry dated breifly, had no interest in dating each other again, yet still spent a lot of time together, no?

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              • Selena Says:

                Did the show ever say how long Jerry and Elaine dated before becoming “just friends”? Also, there were a few episodes where they did have sexual relationship – with “conditions” – before going back to platonic friendship.

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            • pistola Says:

              Agree with what you say Paula; but I’m also going to add that I’ve observed that people who continually end up with friends and not partners out of dating often have commitment issues or are not clear at all about what they want out of a relationship.

              It really doesn’t make that much sense to try to find friendships through dating. By a certain point in life, people already have friends and presumably date to find something other than that.

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              • chuckrock Says:

                It really doesn’t make that much sense to try to find friendships through dating. By a certain point in life, people already have friends and presumably date to find something other than that.

                This makes no sense to me. I am continually making friends, and I hope that I never stop. How depressing it would be to think that at some point i’d stop making new friends.

                If I meet someone (irregardless of how) that seems like a good person, I am likely to become friends with them if we enjoy conversing and/or spending time together. It makes zero sense to me to eliminate those that I happen to meet on a date from this. Most likely if there was something about the person that made me want to go on a date with them then they are the people I will most likely have enough of a connection to maintain a friendship. It may not be the intention of going on a date, but it could be a very good alternative if there is a reason why the relationship couldn’t be more than that.

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                • pistola Says:

                  Well, Chuckrock, you may be dating to find friends. That may be fine for you; some people do that. I find, though, that most people are dating looking for partnership and romance, not more friends. The people we meet may well be good people, but having and maintaining the friendships we already have takes time and effort, and keeping on adding to that group is going to take away from the time and energy a partner requires.

                  I certainly met many good people while dating. But they were looking for romance and partnership and so was I. It just didn’t make sense to suggest that they (or I) invest in seeing whether or not we could be friends when what we were looking for was something different than a platonic friendship. It made more sense for both people to acknowledge enjoying having met one another and then to move on.

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                  • Paula Says:

                    I found myself a number of times using friendship as a crutch, and ultimately it was the self-sabotage that Moxie describes in category 1. (I love all this category talk, with hurricanes headed our way) So I think it’s healthiest for me to not develop more male friendships right now.

                    But if they occasionally happen organically, with both parties in the same place, I don’t think they have to be sabotaging or get in the way of finding the romance and partnership. They happen not because either one says, “let’s be friends,” but because both parties are open to and actually do the work to let a healthy friendship develop.

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              • Maargen Says:

                I agree Pistola. It doesn’t make much sense to date for the purposes of making friends.

                But what happens if you meet dating, have a good time together, but realize that you have different expectations of dating/relationships? If you like the person is it necessary to cut them out of your life?

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                • Crotch Rocket Says:

                  IMHO, once you’ve dated someone, it’s very difficult for a friendship to be created (or an existing one survive) unless both people genuinely agree that it wouldn’t work, usually for some specific reason that is out of their control. If one rejects the other, though, it screws up the dynamic too much, no matter how politely it is done.

                  I’m friends with a few gals I’ve dated, but only a few. Most of the rest parted on good terms since I’m not one to burn bridges, and we’re friendly enough if we run into each other or have a specific reason to talk about something, but we’re not really friends.

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              • Maargen Says:

                I’m also going to add that I’ve observed that people who continually end up with friends and not partners out of dating often have commitment issues or are not clear at all about what they want out of a relationship.

                Sorry – meant to address this too.

                You might be right. But then again, assuming that people are looking to forge long-term relationships, and even get married, it is very possible that the number of people they meet in their lives who are not a good match for them is actually greater than the number of people who are.

                Sure, what is more common is that people date…break up…date….break up….date….marry….divorce…..date…..break up…

                This pattern takes it’s toll. Also, it very often ends with neither partners OR friends out of dating, and sometimes even with enemies. So it doesn’t surprise me that there are people who choose not to follow this pattern. These people might actually have a pretty clear idea of who they are, what they’re looking for, what a good match for them would be, and know that this may actually only be a handful of the people they’ll meet in their lives. And choose to just be friends with the others.

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    • Paula Says:

      >>>unless she was unaware of your age and abruptly ended it upon discovery

      That recently happened to a friend of mine, who is 40, and she was 22 or 23. It hadn’t come up and he doesn’t look his age, necessarily (I would guess between 35 and 40 if I didn’t know him). He could figure her age pretty closely just from the rundown of life experiences she’d given him, but didn’t know exactly.

      They slept together, it was great from his perspective, but then she FREAKED. She’d only had a couple of boyfriends that she’d slept with, so it was a really big deal to her. She wouldn’t even consider dating a guy his age.

      I think you’re right, DMN, that she just wasn’t that into him, and given the lack of information, we can try to speculate about why, but it will just be speculation. But some do have a pretty extreme reaction to finding out about a significant age difference.

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    • Craig Says:

      There is most definitelty a friend zone. I’ve been banished to it many times before s wisened up as I got older. It’s when a woman you like wants to hang out with you – but doesn’t want to fuck you. You avoid the friend zone by telling a woman you like who suggests friendship in lieu of fucking that it that it was nice knowing her and wish her luck in life. I don’t think Dan was even in the friend zone because this woman never gave any indication she wanted to continue to hang out with him after she told him she wasn’t interested.

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      • Maargen Says:

        Dan hadn’t gotten to the friend zone yet – he has to be the one to put himself in it. If he ever calls her again then she’ll assume he’s accepted either her offer for a ‘casual’ thing (an offer I doubt she meant sincerely) or that he’s fine with being friends. She might certainly hang out with him, especially since she’s new in town: the best thing for her is to start making friends. If it’s not the best thing for Dan, though, he shouldn’t call. I doubt she’ll be the one to call him, but if so – it’ll be as a friend.

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        • dan Says:

          Like I said, I don’t do the friends deal. I texted her that I had a good time and that was that. In my opinion, no guy should ever agree or partake in that futile gesture. So, no phone call from me.

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      • Vox Says:

        I define “friend zone” differently than most people here, but it seems to be close to your definition. I would say that it’s not just that she doesn’t want to fuck you, but also that she wants to keep you around for the ego boost: I know you want me but you can’t have me. Without that component, I would not call it the friend zone, it’s just becoming friends. Women seem to do this to men more than he opposite, though I have witnesses a number of gay men do it to their unattractive best girlfriend (usually in their teens and twenties).

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        • Maargen Says:

          Is being in the friend zone different than becoming friends?

          I guess my definition is different too: the guys who I like as people but who I think are hanging around because they want me are NOT friends. Friends are people that I can reach out to, and I definitely never reach out to a guy who wants more from me than I’m willing to give.

          Besides, I think a guy knows when there’s no chance at all with a woman, and in order to keep him ‘hoping’ she has to send him mixed signals. Doing that is simply dishonest and manipulative – NOT the sign of a good friend.

          Without mixed signals, and with clear, sustained boundaries, I think the guys give up hope. The ones who are still around after that period are the friends.

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          • Vox Says:

            In my mind, yes the “friend zone” and “being friends” are two different things. When we speak of the friend zone, it always seems comes after a verb: “I put him in the friend zone” or “she put me in the friend zone” which implies one person made the decision, and the other went along with it. The subject had no say in the matter. I’ve never heard anyone refer to being put in the friend zone in a positive manner. (i.e. I thought we had a great date, but she doesn’t want to see me again. So she put me in the friend zone, and now I have a new bff!)

            A true friendship, on the other hand, develops when both people have an affinity for each other. This could happen after meeting on a date, or otherwise; the point is that the two people have taken their relationship into a friendship mutually. If you “make” someone become your friend because you don’t want to date them but want to keep them around, that’s a friend zone deal (assuming the other person accepts this status).

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  5. KTJ Says:

    This doesn’t sound like a friendzone thing to me. A woman will go out with a man that she’s not super interested in, just to give it a shot and see if there’s any connection, or just to go on a date, or for any number of reasons. And most of us will go on a second date even if the first one wasn’t stellar, just to make sure, give it a second chance, etc. It sounds to me like there was some initial interest, but ultimately just not enough. If I’m really into a guy, I’m not going to cancel a Tuesday date on Monday because I partied too hard over the weekend. And then blurting out that she’s not ready for anything serious… Again, it sounds to me like she was just mildly interested enough to give it a shot, but not a really high level of interest. It sounds like if you contacted her for another date she would probably go out with you again, but I bet it would continue to be like it has been, and eventually just fizzle out.

    Doesn’t sound like there was a great connection from your point of view either. I’d let it go and look to date women a little older who are more on your wavelength.

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  6. Selena Says:

    When I was 25 I would have thought someone almost 40 too old for me. It’s possible she liked you and was “giving you a chance” by going out with you more than once, but then decided she didn’t want to pursue anything with someone older and presumably looking for something serious.

    I don’t know what you can do to prevent yourself from falling into the “friend zone” after only a date or two. If you want a someone who IS looking for a serious relationship, you might do better dating women who are within 5-7 years of your own age. In either direction.

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  7. chuckrock Says:

    I think this woman told you exactly what happened. she wasn’t ready for anything serious – for the reasons she gave. She told the OP because she didn’t want him to get the wrong idea – and maybe he said something that prompted it (but we don’t really know – i’d need to see the transcript :) ).

    I don’t see any reason to believe she just wasn’t telling the truth (ut oh – there is that honesty thing creeping its head up again.)

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  8. Maargen Says:

    Although the friend zone does exist, once in it it’s almost impossible to get out of it. If you’re not interested in making more friends then don’t bother keeping in touch.

    As for what changed between dates? Maybe nothing. If she’s one of those happy, easy-going and personable sort of people, this is one of the drawbacks of that: she can have a good time and genuinely enjoy spending time with you, without wanting to date you.

    It’s very possible that she wasn’t into you for dating purposes, but didn’t know how to say “no thank you” to your invitations without hurting your feelings. She prefered to let you know in person that she wasn’t interested so the invitations would stop coming.

    This does lead me to a question for the ladies: you go to a party, bar, whatever. A guy comes up to you and you two have a pleasant conversation. After a while he asks for your number. If you know you’re not interested in dating him, what do you say that doesn’t sound either dismissive or presumptuous?

    My question for the guys is: if you meet a woman under those circumstances and ask for her number, should she somehow let you know right then and there that she’s not interested in dating you? I think that would be odd when all you did was ask for her number, but if so, what’s the best way for her to let you know she’s not interested without making you feel bad?

    I think a lot of us women end up giving our number to guys knowing that there’s a good chance he won’t actually call anyway, while the guys take getting the number as a sign of encouragement. What’s the best way to handle this?

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    • dan Says:

      To answer your question, you should either say you have a b/f or you don’t give your number to strangers in a bar. Or you ask him for his number. Any sane and cognizant man will get the hint. DO NOT give a fake phone number. That;’a crappy thing to do plus a savvy guy will call you right there to make sure it’s a real number.

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  9. Craig Says:

    However, what I don’t understand is how she went from hot to cold in a few days and after two (2) dates? – Dan, the OP

    What Dan fails to grasp is that she was never “hot” to begin with. Did she repeatedly touch your forearm, try to stick her tongue down your throat, grab your junk, or otherwise try to touch you after two dates? No? Then she wasn’t hot for you. Merely returning someone’s calls or texts is not being “hot” for someone – it’s just basic common courtesy. More often than not, most women want to be in a relationship. So when a woman says she’s not looking for anything serious or a relationship, that means she is looking for one – just not with you. I once had a woman tell me that, and she ended up engaged six months later.

    As to why she went out with Dan twice is she wasn’t interested, that’s easy to explain. As she stated herself, she had just moved back into town. So naturally, she wants to jump start her social life and get out of the house. Why not do it at someone else’s expense? Just like when guys enjoy a night out with a women and seemingly have a good time with her but then never call again, what happened to Dan is the female version of that dynamic. Be glad she had the decency to at least give you an explanation (though likely a fictional one) rather than just not returning your calls. My advice: Dan should listen to his friend Karen and move on. There are plenty of fish in the sea. Save your energy for the ones that want you from the get-go and throw the rest back.

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  10. nathan Says:

    Look., forget about the age difference. Perhaps the more relevant piece of info here is the fact she spent the weekend “partying.” Dan, do you want to be with a “party girl” at your age?

    In any case, I think the signals are clear. She says she’s not looking for anything serious. She isn’t terribly concerned about making and breaking plans. And she said she wants to focus on her own life right now. She’s either not interested, or only a little interested, and the OP sounds like he’s mixed about the situation himself.

    So, my question is, why spend so much energy analyzing what’s happening with a woman you only have marginal interest in?

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    • Paula Says:

      He lives in the Big Easy, Nathan…everyone spends the weekend partying.

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      • dan Says:

        Until the Hurricanes come and we are forced to evacuate by the mayor. Then we head west to Baton Rouge to party. In any case, this is a fiction. Most New Orleanians don’t party as much as the media protrays us. It’s the yankee tourists who come here and make asses of themselves by being found passed out in a Bourbon Street gutter. :)

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        • Paula Says:

          I don’t know, Dan…I was just in New Orleans recently, and commented to my dinner companion that I could never live in New Orleans (although it’s my favorite US city) because I would become a 300-pound alcoholic.

          Our server overheard me, and said, “yes, it’s true. I’m grew up here, and I’m in AA (and she was a bigger woman, although probably not 300 pounds).” While I was trying to apologize, she said she wasn’t offended and went on to say that drinking is so deeply ingrained into the culture that it is very hard to maintain a social life not drinking.

          Granted, that’s only one person’s opinion, but I’ve spent a fair amount of time there, talked to a number of locals, and I’ve found that even the locals party much more than the locals of other cities (even if it isn’t as much as the tourists.) I also read somewhere that New Orleans has the highest rate of alcoholism per capita of any US City (which I believe I read before Katrina.)

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          • Dan Says:

            Well, I don’t drink much. I had fun in college and alw school but you have to grow up. Also, i would not take one person’s opinion as applying to everyone in New Orleans. What is true, however, is that people who move here do gain weight.

            Aslo, you do not need to become an alcoholic to have a social life in N.O. That’s a ridiculous statement.

            Most people who come to New Orleans all say they could not live here. Well, as much as I hate Louisiana it’s not like I’m dying to move to Kansas.

            What’s your source for the alcoholism rate?

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            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              Annd….we’re off topic. Let’s try to keep it to subject of the original post. Thanks.

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  11. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    There’s two types of people who play the “I just want to be friends” card:

    1. The people who run away from any available man or woman because they’re incapable of emotional intimacy. They like these people, are probably even attracted ot them, and wish to “non-date” them. They don’t want to totally cut the other person loose. They tend to self-sabotage those situations A LOT.

    2. The people who know the other person isn’t interested and who wish to keep a connection to them. The people accept the offer of friendship with no real intention of ever pursuing a friendship. At best they’re keeping the lines open in case they wish to get laid and have no other options. Or because they like attention and like to be able to say that they are “dating” someone.” The person extending the offer of friendship convinces themselves that this person is really “their friend.” They justify the excuses for lack of contact, cancelling, etc. They’re the ones to usually initiate contact, too. It’s a one sided “friendship.”

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    • chuckrock Says:

      Geez, do you not have any platonic friendships? How sad that is. I have plenty of female friends where the friendship is not onesided, there is no sexual tension, and the friendship is real.

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      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        The topic isn’t “can men and women be friends?”

        I have plenty of platonic friendships with the opposite sex. But they’re not men I dated. I might be friendly with men I went out with, trade texts and emails, maybe even occasionally hang out with them or have sex with them. But I don’t deceive myself in to believing that they’re true friends. My true friends are the ones that go out of their way for me, are there for me, etc.

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        • chuckrock Says:

          Right, and I have several women that I have dated (whether it was one date and/or several) who are now good friends – to your definition. My point still stands.

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          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            Your point isn’t more valid because it’s yours. Going by that definition my point still stands, too.

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            • chuckrock Says:

              My point has disproven yours though. You said “There’s two types of people who play the “I just want to be friends” card:” and i have now shown that there are more than just those two types. There are also those that genuinely want to be and are capable of being just friends.

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              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                Without getting all personal chuck, because I know you hate that, I don’t exactly put a lot of stock in your perceptions of things. Of course, if you’d like to continue this debate, I’d be happy to outline why that is the case.

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                • chuckrock Says:

                  I could care less about the stock you put in my perceptions of things. It is clear that we live in very different worlds.

                  You just can not have a logical debate without attacking the author – just like you continuously attack Paula and Maargen when they post. Whether you like me or not, nothing you have said destroys the logic behind my posts.

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                  • nathan Says:

                    I agree with Chuck’s point about exs who become good friends. My sister has a few. I have a few. I know others who also have a few. It doesn’t have to be as black and white as “always been platonic” and “once dated means we can’t be good friends.”

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                    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                      I should have been more clear in my comment. I’m talking about people who had a few dates. Not actual LT relationships.

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          • Maargen Says:

            I agree Chuck – same here. My male and my female friends go out of their way for me and are there for me, etc. We help each other with dating, family issues, moving…whatever. Some are guys I’ve dated. Some I haven’t.

            The reason I’m friends with the guys I dated is because the level of emotional intimacy attained was very high. Of course, I am very selective about who I date, so the guys I date tend to be people that I develop a lot of respect and friendship for. Considering the amount of time it takes to become real friends (I’m not talking Facebook here), that kind of investment isn’t disposable to me.

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        • chuckrock Says:

          and really even those that you include in “I have plenty of platonic friendships with the opposite sex” that at some point when you first met there was a decision made to be friends rather than more than that – even if it was subconsiously. So there is really no difference at all.

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          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            So now you’re presuming to know how my brain and decision making functions work? Every time I encounter a man, I don’t look at them as possible dating material. My close male friends were always friends. Nothing more. There was no subconscious anything. Just because they’re members of the opposite sex doesn’t mean they are either boyfriend material or not. And a couple of them are gay, which I knew before I met them. So do feel free to explain the psychology behind that.

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            • chuckrock Says:

              They were not “always friends”. At some point you had to have just met them, meaning before that instant you didn’t know them and they weren’t your friend.

              everytime you meet someone you make a decision about them – everybody does. There are plenty of reasons you may not have considered them as date material. Here are a few off the top of my head: They weren’t attractive to you. You had a boyfriend at the time. You met them when you were very young. You knew they had a girlfriend. You knew they were gay. You met them at work. They lived far away. etc, etc, etc.

              This decision making HAS to be done in order to know when you DO meet someone you’d like to date. You don’t just know it without making that decision at some point – consciously or subconsiously.

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              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                Ok, I’ll concede to your point and your reasoning. I still think you fall in to category 2 of my original comment. Therefore, to me, the rest of your argument – while sound – is moot.

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                • Maargen Says:

                  Of course there’s a category missing from your list:

                  3. The people who dated, developed an appreciation for each other as people, but who weren’t compatible enough for a relationship. So they are now friends. No ulterior motives – no strings attached.

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                • Paula Says:

                  Category 2 is “people with no real intention of forming a friendship,” those who just want to get laid, etc. So how does it include the people chuckrock and Maargen are talking about, the ones who have formed genuine post-dating friendships?

                  I’m the first to acknowledge that I think it’s rare that it works out this way, but I’ve seen it happen enough to know it exists, more than those horny unicorns even.

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    • NB Says:

      The only men who offered me friendship after we “broke up” were the ones who either thought I would eventually change my mind once I got to know them or who wanted an ego boost.

      If the core group of someone’s friends are people they casually dated that’s a red flag for me. I know women who do this and it’s because they don’t want the men to find someone else and lose their attention.

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  12. Trouble Says:

    Bluntly, the times I’ve had similar conversations with guys, this is what it meant:

    1) I’m not physically attracted to him.
    2) I’m not physically attracted to him AND he said something weird/off during the date.
    3) I don’t even want to be friends, but I’m trying to be polite.

    It NEVER meant that I might want to date him in the future. If that were the case, there would have been a very different conversation along the lines of, “I’m super attracted to you, but my life is in turmoil right now…”

    This girl may have had some stars in her eyes because you probably stand out from the pack in terms of financial success, but ultimately, she probably wasn’t physically attacted.

    I work with a lot of twenty-something women in my office. We’ve had a couple of converations about this subject. None of them would consider dating someone in his late 30s for the longterm. I would advise dating someone closer to your own age group. Not necessarily 38, but 30. There’s a huge difference in maturity and life goals for women between age 25 and 30.

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    • Paula Says:

      With a couple of exceptions, most of the guys that I am friends with, I would also sleep with them too. The two glaring exceptions are my two best friends, however, which makes me think that it’s easier to develop a deeper friendship when there isn’t any attraction present (one is gay and the other is such a piece of work that my lady bits shrivel at the thought.)

      I’ve found that if you try to date someone, and they’re saying “let’s be friends,” that rarely does a friendship arise from that. It’s not to say that it couldn’t, but either they’re just saying it to be polite (#3), or the lack of physical attraction, if it’s only one-sided, makes it difficult for a true friendship to develop, because either you want more and are hoping to change their mind (not healthy and rarely works) or you’re so conscious of the fact that they don’t want you that it’s hard to like them enough to be good friends.

      However, that wasn’t what the OP was told — he was told that she didn’t want anything serious and didn’t have time for a relationship right now. I think that is subtext for one of two things: she’s not interested, period, and thought that sounded like a good way to let you know. Or she’d be down with banging you, but women are never encouraged to come right out and say that. So she said the same thing that she’s heard from guys that just want to bang. With this little info, it’s hard to tell, but maybe the OP has a sense of the physical chemistry present and their respective personalities to be able to tell if he turned her on or not.

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      • Maargen Says:

        I’ve found that if you try to date someone, and they’re saying “let’s be friends,” that rarely does a friendship arise from that. It’s not to say that it couldn’t, but either they’re just saying it to be polite (#3), or the lack of physical attraction, if it’s only one-sided, makes it difficult for a true friendship to develop, because either you want more and are hoping to change their mind (not healthy and rarely works) or you’re so conscious of the fact that they don’t want you that it’s hard to like them enough to be good friends

        The situation you describe certainly exists, but I can describe others that don’t fit the pattern. Not every two people who are attracted to each other would make a good couple. I would even go so far as to say that most dating relationships are between people who are attracted to each other, but are otherwise incompatible in a fundamental way. I think this may be the reason more relationships fail than succeed.

        Allowing people to be who they are, recognizing the incompatibilities without blaming anyone, and moving on before resentment, hostility or disappointed hopes set in is the best way to stay on good terms.

        It’s not always about ‘not wanting;, or not being physically attracted – it[‘s about not being a good fit.

        After being friends with a guy for a while, my feelings become very….sisterly. The idea of sex with them would make me very, very uncomfortable. That’s the vibe that exists between us after a while – from both directions. I just can’t see them in ‘that’ way anymore, and there’s no sign that they feel an attraction to me. If they say I look great it’s just like when my brother. mother, girlfriends or anyone else says it.

        Relationships seek their own level – much better to recognize the proper level rather than try to force something.

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        • Paula Says:

          I would go back to what Vox said on this: if someone puts you in the friend zone, and you agree just to stay in their life, chances are, it’s not going to develop the way you want it to. If, however, you date, it doesn’t work out, you accept that, and then later a friendship develops that both parties want, then it can work.

          I don’t transform from attraction to just platonic friendship that easily — at the very least, even if I don’t want a relationship with them, I want a friendship with benefits. Spending a lot of time around someone who has put me in the friend zone makes me less likely to pursue romance and partnership with someone who doesn’t feel that way, and triggers a lot of the insecurity that Moxie discussed in her recent blog post. So I’m not really in the market for new friends among those I date, although I occasionally find someone that I might consider for a friendship. For me, I can’t force myself not to have feelings, and waiting for them to go away takes too long if they’re always around.

          If you and chuckrock can pull it off, more power to you, and I’ve seen others do it well too, which is why I believe it does exist as a separate category. It’s just not for me, at least not while I’m single.

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  13. Saj Says:

    Usually when friendships develop out of failed dating opportunities it was a cross between what Vox said and what Chuckrock said.

    For some reason you enjoy their company and could find them fascinating but there is enough personality conflicts or lack of attraction that you feel that a romantic relationship will just end in failure so you put them in the friend zone. You also get that added fun of being friends with someone who is attracted to you and gives you compliments pertaining to that here and there.

    However from the seemingly egotistical place true and real friendships have developed when you keep in continued contact with this person and it gets to the point where there will never be a relationship and your both fine with it you are past any jealousy when the other person is dating/married to new people. That’s where it’s no longer the friend zone but a true friendship.

    As for the OP’s question I agree with Craig. She was never hot, just polite and courteous and not good at saying no more dates so she was just postponing and trying to bail over and over and when finally she couldn’t bail laid down the I’m not ready for a relationship card. Odds are if she’s dating she’s ready for a relationship just not with the OP.

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  14. Charlie Says:

    What drives me nuts about “Let’s just be friends” and similar statements is that they are almost always internally justified by the person thinking they are trying to be “nice,” even when they don’t mean it. If you’re telling someone a “socially acceptable” lie in order to avoid being honest and tactful then the only person you are being “nice” to is yourself.

    Couple that with some of the other excuses that are bandied about and you can end up with the dumpee having a false hope that something may one day be salvageable while the dumper thinks they have done a full cutoff. Drama follows. Sure you can make an argument that the dumpee should read between the lines, but it’s hard to do that when you otherwise feel someone is trustworthy.

    I think I’ve said it here before, but in my experience the people who genuinely want to be friends will not say it, but act like a friend. So I agree with Craig’s sentiment that when the word “friend” comes up that the only response should be “goodbye.”

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  15. dan Says:

    Alright, I was the OP on this one. Let me give you guys and gals some additional background information. FIrst, I don’t go trolling for 25 year olds but, I do date them. It’s just I don’t look my age and the dating scene is non-existent in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. New Orleans is still recovering from that devastation and, in particular, the population. Plus, being that I’m an educated professional with an advanced degree it makes it even harder for me to meet people. Why? Most people that live in Louisiana are ignorant. uneducated rednecks who care only about hunting, driking and LSU football. (As I sidenote, I hate Louisiana) So, I have to be more expansive regarding who I date. In fact, last time I was in New York, I went out with a 25 year old and we still keep in contact. I guess I must have missed Moxie while she was hanging out at the wine bar. Also, I will add that women down South get married young and by the time they are in their thirties a lot have 3 or more kids. Who the hell wants to deal with that? Certainly, not me.

    As far as this ex-sorority girl’s drinking was concerned, I will say it made me think twice about getting involved. This girl partied hard and the bags under her eyes betrayed that fact. Plus, she told me in high school she had to take anger management classes because she was upset that noone would tell her more about her deceased dad. hahah And she admitted she drank a lot in high school. So, upon reflection, even if we started dating it probably would not have lasted long.

    Also, she did not touch me or anything, so I guessed what was going on. As far as bailing on me, who knows. In my experience, women who want to bail on you will nver provide you with alternative, specific dates. However, I believe it is constructive to get other peoples’ viewpoint and opinions. And, thus, thanks for all the comments; however, I am disappointed Moxie did not weigh in. I guess she was too busy sipping wine at her local wine bar that charges $35.00 a glass and making her date pay for it. Just kidding, Moxie. It’s a joke.

    In any event, I have moved on and no phone calls to this girl. It was another dating experience. Will I keep dating twenty something year olds? Maybe, unless Moxie and other professional women in their thirties move down to the bayou. Again, thanks for the comments.

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    • Selena Says:

      It’s just I don’t look my age…
      Everyone
      believes they don’t look their age. They look it to younger people though. Think about it, how often have you mistaken someone 10 or more years older than you for being around your own age? ;)

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      • dan Says:

        I don’t base that comment on my own self-perception. That’s what many people–male and female– tell me. And I can tell the difference when someone is just saying something to be nice and when they mean it.

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        • Selena Says:

          You may also have told people sincerely they don’t look their age, yes? But, how many times have you actually mistaken someone a decade older than yourself for being around your own age?

          You may look great. But 20 somethings aren’t mistaking you for a peer. Just sayin’.

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          • Trouble Says:

            Dan,

            I live on the redneck riviera. I understand what you’re saying, but there are, from what I can tell, plenty of career women in my town who are still single in their 30s. In your case, I really would suggest doing online or something similar. I have similar concerns about my smaller southern community, but like NOLA, there are plenty of transplants here from other areas. So, I’m living in the South, but dating a guy from Seattle who relocated here a few years ago. That’s what I’d look for, if I were you…a nice transplant who may not be as much a part of local circles.

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      • Kurt Says:

        Maybe everyone thinks they look younger than their age and most probably are deluding themselves. However, some of us really do look young for our ages – maybe not 10 years younger, but maybe 5+ years younger. I have had several women on different occasions who were surprised when I told them my age – they then told me that I have a “baby face.” I thought it was some kind of insult the first time I heard it, but then I found it that it meant that I looked young for my age.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          Nobody looks young for their age. It’s that so many other people look old for their age because they don’t take care of themselves.

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          • Kurt Says:

            If some people look old for their age, then it stands to reason that some people must also look young for their age. It’s like a bell curve distribution, although many of the people who think they look young actually don’t look young.

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  16. Kurt Says:

    The OP met this woman at a bar when she was probably drunk. There is nothing that he can do to avoid the friend zone here because this woman has already made up her mind. He should not have rescheduled that after she cancelled the other lunch date because she was allegedly sick. The fact that she instead asked to meet for dinner does give credence to the idea that she was just after a free meal. Some women will string a guy along that they don’t really like because they think they are being “nice.” In reality, however, women who do that are being incredibly selfish. She probably doesn’t even think she’s doing anything wrong here. Men like the OP should adopt a zero-tolerance attitude toward a young woman who flakes because she is almost certainly not interested.

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  17. grace Says:

    OP, she ain’t interested because she sees you as too old. When I was 38, I dated a 51 year old guy for a month. I only kissed him once and never had sex with him, because I imagined his need for Viagra issues and couldn’t get pass the lines on his face. He once asked me if I colored my hair to hide the gray but I knew he was just sayint that to make himself feel better.

    I am guessing that at least part of the reason you like this girl is because she is much younger than you are. My advice, stay in our your own lane in terms of age.

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    • Kurt Says:

      Why did you even date that old man if you were disgusted by him? Did you just want a free meal?

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      • dan Says:

        She probably was dating her boss so she could advance through the ranks.

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        • grace Says:

          No grandpa Dan, he wasn’t my boss and I advanced through the ranks because I busted by butt to get my academic credentials.

          Old with an attitude? Seriously?

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          • dan Says:

            Grandpa? Is that the best you have in response? Well, you clearly skirted the question why you went out with this guy and I can bet because of unethical and dubious reasons. Care to share?

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    • dan Says:

      Maybe so, but there is no comparison between a 26 yr old dating a 38 yr old versus a 38 yr old dating a 51 yr old. I do not need Viagra or go to the bathroom at night several times. Ha, actually, your example cracked me up. What made you go out with this guy?

      Yeah, of course part of the reason I liked her was because of her age.

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      • Selena Says:

        “Yeah, of course part of the reason I liked her was because of her age”.

        And you are writing here to get understanding as to why she wasn’t as interested in continuing dating as you were. Why don’t you believe it may have been because of your age?

        Do you see any differences in the way you were at 25, compared to the way you are now at 38?

        Age is a number, but many see a big growth difference between being middle aged and “not long out of college” age.

        Perhaps she did.

        Also, have you considered your derision of the state “she moved back to” may have factored into her not thinking you a good match?

        People who dislike where they live do not make for the most pleasant companions. For those who choose where they live.

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      • grace Says:

        Actually there is. If we were both men I could see you saying there is a differentce, but a man’s sexual ability starts to decline fairly early while a women doesn’t experience that vaginal thing until well into our forties or older.

        I hear you when you say that you partly liked her because of her age, but don’t write in whining because a young girl clearly dumped you because you need a nap while she is getting ready to go out to party with her friends.

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        • Kurt Says:

          Why are you making a personal attack on Dan? You are the one who mentioned that you dated a 51-year-old man for a month when you were 38 and that you were so disgusted by him that you only kissed him once. With no additional details, that story actually makes you look really bad and possibly a gold-digger or at least a woman who just went out with a guy to receive a free meal or free entertainment. So why did you date a man for a month even though he disgusted you?

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          • Paula Says:

            Because Dan was the OP asking for advice, and grace wasn’t? Because he personally attacked her first by saying she was probably dating her boss? And then questioned her credentials?

            Maybe grace went out with the older guy for free meals. Maybe she went out with him because she was bored and didn’t have anyone else pursuing her around that time. Maybe she went out with him because he asked her out, and she wanted to give it some time to see whether an attraction would develop between them. Maybe she went out with him because he was a nice guy, had some other qualities she liked, and thought they might overcome her lack of attraction, but they didn’t.

            But ultimately, it doesn’t really matter, because she didn’t write Moxie asking for advice about the situation, and she didn’t personally attack Dan first. You, Dan and anyone else can attack her all you want, but that just shows your lack of character, not hers.

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  18. VJ Says:

    Dan, I’d say first off that she was looking for a cheap dinner date and some free & easy entertainment & you fit the bill. The larger point though is love where you’re at, (sort of a take off of the old ‘love the one you’re with deal). If you so dislike the Big Easy, move. If you just hate the South, move someplace else. No one likes a whiner. Really. And it’s not too hard. La has some of the best all around hunting in the lower 48 states. Maybe take up a hobby. Even skeet shooting with friends might expand your horizons here. Duck hunting is also a good day’s outing too. If you’re living there for any length of time? You might as well learn to enjoy it, right?

    I now live down South, and yes, there’s plenty of ‘ignorant uneducated Rednecks’. But you know what? Every state has them, including NY too. And moreover? We’ve got some real quality women down here too. You’ve got to look for them, but there’s plenty that somehow do not suffer from the whole ‘entitlement’/Princess complex that seems to afflict so many of our youngsters, (of all sexes, BTW). Living in my small town I’m continually amazed by the amount of seriously good looking kids we’ve got running around here. Well mannered & polite too for the most part. Now truth be told after 25 most of them that’s not escaped already, are trailing some kids. I guess that’s just the culture. They’re still easy mannered for the most part, respectful, and easy on the eyes as well. Look harder and perhaps not just in the bars too. I realize that’s difficult. How about stalking more of the Uni’s down there or doing some non profit volunteering? That might help in your search. The ‘hateraid’ of the entire damn state gets old fast. No one likes that, not even the snobs from up North/East/West actually. It’s a dichotomy to be certain. You don’t have to date rednecks to appreciate the scenery they enjoy, the sports they cheer for or even the history and natural beauty they revere. And BTW? Adding that all up may mean that more of your real criteria will be met with slightly older women too. Just a thought. Cheers & Good Luck, ‘VJ’

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  19. mark Says:

    Interesting post by the OP.

    There was in initial time out with some casual drinks conversation etc ending with a peck on the cheek. This was followed up by an exchange of e-mails including one from her saying she was hung over from partying. Then there was a follow up dinner and again not much else.

    I think that there are a couple of core items at work here. First is the whole chemistry thing. After all, a person is going to find that either the chemistry is there or they aren’t. In essence there may be some initial attraction, but for whatever reason they decide that the other person just isn’t what they are looking for in a partner. So she might have been initially attracted to you but just felt that it wasn’t going to go any further. Hence the ‘Let’s be friends’ line. It’s often a socially acceptable white like that people use to let someone down easy. You’re an attorney, so you are familiar with the phrase ‘Res Ipsa…’

    The second point is the age difference. 25 vs. 38. It’s there and it’s a factor to consider. You may be looking at things from different perspectives given the age difference.. Still, if this is part of the dating population that you enjoy dating, then by all means continue doing so.

    As to avoiding the Friends Zone thing; without her input on this, one can only speculate as to the particulars. But once in it, you don’t get out of it. So if you say you are looking to date, not a woman to be friends with, then that sounds like the right decision for you to make. Still, your sister does make a valid point about maintaining a potential bridge. Don’t burn it unless your really sure. At least it’s something to consider. Confidence without arrogance is critical no matter who you are. As are attractiveness, personality, financial security, etc. Other aspects just depend on the other person and what they specifically find attractive.

    I can appreciate you may find New Orleans and the surrounding area (Metarie, Slidell, etc) post Katrina difficult. But Hopefully you still see it as a place where you can still say the phrase Laissez les bons temps rouler.

    Best of luck.

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  20. Gmac Says:

    Free meals it sounds like. Could be wrong though.

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  21. sarah Says:

    It was only two dates. She wasn’t that into you. Let it go and move on to someone who is on the same page as you, and actually wants to date you. Period.

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  22. NOCTURNAL Says:

    Dan, this is coming from a 39 year old guy who dates younger chicks ALL the time.

    You lost the battle when it comes to women when you stated *If a woman tells me she just wants to be friends, I move on.*

    Why, Dan ? Are you THAT desperate to get married ? (probably not) So, why NOT try to get to KNOW someone ?

    Trust me, you are NOT the only guy to think this way. I am not villainizing you. I’d say more than 90% of the guys I know feel the same way. I’ll quote one of them *If I’m not fucking them ..or trying to fuck them. ..WHY on earth would I waste my time being friends with a chick ?*

    It’s pretty pathetic to me that THIS is how some guys feel and a real SAD statement for men in general. As A guy, I can understand (I suppose) how they feel this way, BUT I am also a guy who has MANY female friends and I cherish and value my friendships with women. These are NOT the same women I am sleeping with, BUT in SOME cases YES, relationships HAVE blossomed thru FRIENDSHIPS.

    Why ? Well, here’s a novel idea, fellas ….maybe you should GET TO KNOW a woman first (and vice versa ..she should get to know you) BEFORE you enter INTO a relationship …how bout that ? lol People are so afraid to invest time and effort anymore that they think if they go on a date or 2 ..people should be READY to jump into a relationship.

    I don’t see anything wrong with going to a dinner or 2 and ending how it did for you. I mean ..Im assuming you’re not a male supermodel and maybe ..JUST MAYBE ..she’s not a whore ! lol In no way, did it seem she was *hot for you*. So, I don’t know why you are so *surprised*. MAYBE she is telling the truth ? MAYBE she’s not sure about you ..so, she wants to take it slow ?

    I DO agree with your friend Karen..there are TONS of chicks out there ..especially in this economy…looking for *free meals*…and there are TONS n TONS more guys out there stupid enough to provide them.

    Bottom line ..she SEEMS to have been VERY nice so far ..and she is telling you STRAIGHT UP how she feels. You ARE being a *typical douche* and want to walk away JUST because she threw the word *FRIEND* out there ..but is being a friend or making a new friend SUCH a bad thing ?

    I agree with your sister. BE friends. stay in touch. TALK to her (screw this texting crap) SHOW her you ARE interested. She may change her tune soon enough if she likes you enough. However, if you just become another faceless texter with random greetings and carbon-copy convo topics ..WHAT exactly is she supposed to fall in love with ?

    I ALSO agree ..don’t be a sucker and spend anymore $$ on taking her out on lavish dates if she is JUST a *friend*. Sure ..if you REALLY wanna go eat someplace and are alone ..invite her along (because she is your FRIEND), but I wouldn’t make a habit out of it..especially if she is banging OTHER dudes LOL

    Good Luck with it !

    ~H

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    • Kurt Says:

      Oh please – Dan would have to be an idiot to actually try to be friends with this woman. I would bet that she doesn’t even want him as a friend. She probably was somewhat attracted to him at first but then changed her mind for whatever reason.

      Her behavior does not indicate that she is a “nice” person. If she really was a nice person, she wouldn’t have led him on, which she undoubtedly realized she was doing. If she was nice, she wouldn’t have gone out on a date with Dan but if she did, she would have insisted on paying for her share of the dinner.

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      • NOCTURNAL Says:

        Call me crazy., but in this world of sucky-ass people when someone cancels plans due to work or whatever and then re-schedules and then ACTUALLY comes through on the new plans ..that IS nice to me lol

        I see chicks do some PRETTY messed up stuff out there ..and yes, she is not falling over backwards off her chair with her legs spread for him, BUT hey …sometimes we have to work a little to get what we want. Yes, it’s nice to have things handed to you, BUT that is not always the case.

        Bottom line ..I dont see ANY chicks INSISTING on paying for their share of the dinner. You’re thinking in TOTAL online-dating mode …which he didnt meet her online, but at a bar.

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        • Maargen Says:

          I almost agree with you Nocturnal.

          When you quoted the guy who said: “*If I’m not fucking them ..or trying to fuck them. ..WHY on earth would I waste my time being friends with a chick ?*”

          this pretty much summed up the reason I’m suspicious of men who have no friends of the opposite sex. I don’t condemn them outright or accuse them of anything, but I do keep my eyes open to see if they don’t have the attitude you describe. I also have a girlfriend who has no male friends – she says she doesn’t see the point in hanging out with guys she has no interest in dating (strangely enough she doesn’t have many female friends either – her “what’s in it for me” attitude spills over into all of her relationships, not just with men)

          And yes – I do think she behaved well under the circumstances. Maybe she should have been forceful about not taking his phone calls or accepting his invitation, but things are not so cut and dried that you can dismiss people without giving them a chance. She could have dragged it out and really taken him for a ride, so it seems she was nice enough to let him know as soon and as nicely as she could that it was a no go.

          But if Dan isn’t interested in being friends, that’s his prerogative and he needs to move on. He can’t hang around her hoping she’ll change her mind, and the worst thing he can do is ask her out again and then hit on her. That’s just annoying and fruitless.

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          • Dan Says:

            So, you are saying the going cost for getting a women’s friendship is two dinners? Also, maybe your forgot one of the reasons we are on this planet is to reproduce and not listen to some girl complain about her boyfriend not giving her enough attention.

            I’m not saying this girl behaved egregiously; howwever, I am suspect of her reasons for going out with me twice. And No she would not have taken me for a ride. :)

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            • Maargen Says:

              Not sure what you mean here Dan.

              Two dinners certainly doesn’t make you friends (especially if only one person paid for both), and I’m saying that you’re not a douche for not wanting to be friends.

              You said in your original post that she said she didn’t want a serious relationship. It’s not until a later post that you said you were open to casual. That being the case, you can certainly try for that with this woman (as long as her idea of casual isn’t that you take her to dinner when and if she’s got nothing better to do)

              However, if it takes more than two dates to figure out what she wants and what you want and whether that’s mutually exclusive, then hey – that’s dating.

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      • Paula Says:

        Kurt — it says nowhere in Dan’s post that he paid for dinner or that he is peeved over the check. This is your obsession.

        He should have paid for the first dinner: they met in a bar, he asked her out, and he took her to the restaurant of his choice, then continued it with drinks because it was presumably going well. As for the second: we have no evidence that she was leading him on. She could have completely bailed and not had a second date. She could have not said anything on the second date and told him at the end of the evening or pulled the Fade after the date; instead, she told him early on: not that she wanted to be friends, but that she only wanted something casual. (Frankly, I don’t even get the purpose of Dan’s whole “friend zone” thing, or why Moxie titled the post what she did, because we’ve now had a whole discussion about the friend zone when it’s not even clear that she was trying to put him in it.)

        You act like every woman knows from the second a guy asks her out what she wants to happen with him, when actually, it takes most of us a while to get to know someone to figure that out. I know that there are women out there who lead guys on in order to get free dinners, but their numbers are small compared to those who are just trying to take enough time to end up with the right ones and not the wrong ones.

        Also, when there’s a considerable age difference, it’s more likely the older person is going to have to pick up the tab, as it is assumed the older person is more established in their career and making more money. When I date younger guys, I know that’s how it works. It’s the tradeoff for getting young hotness. If you want everything to be 50/50, then date someone who is at the same age and disposable income level as you.

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        • Selena Says:

          Wouldn’t most 25 yr old girls have the expectation a 38 yr old attorney would pay for dinner? Especially when it was the attorney’s invitation? Especially in the South where such manners are more commonplace than where you may be from Kurt.

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          • Dan Says:

            Wait you equate manners with paying for some freeloader’s meal? What about the freeloader’s manners? If you are not interested say no to dinner. That’s manners.

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            • Selena Says:

              I do agree if she wasn’t at all interested in you she shouldn’t have agreed to a second date.

              I think it’s possible though what has been suggested, 1) that she wasn’t sure whether or not she wanted to date you and went on the second date to “give it chance” and/or she felt bad about canceling on you twice (once for hangover, second for work) and felt she ‘owed’ you a second date.

              You are still a bit stung by her rejection and understandably don’t want to consider these possibilities, but they are possiblities nonetheless.

              Men are sometimes quick to label women “dinner whores” but most of us would rather stay home and clean a toliet than go out to dinner with a guy we have no interest in.

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              • Dan Says:

                Look, I admit I was not on my “A” game and noone likes rejection–even hugh hefner. However, being told by her that she was not interested while I am trying to enjoy dinner after waiting for her and half-starving did not make it anymore palatable.I accomodated her. All she had to do was show up and grind out a few hours while listening to my b/s and enjoing a hige steak which she slurped right up. She was like a human Venus Flytrap flower.

                It just seems to me she could have waited to tell me rather than doing it mid-dinner. To me, it felt like she had already made up her mind beforehand and knew what she was going to tell me. In other words, she ahd her pllan and was just her time while I picked up the check.

                Anyway, who knows. Hindsight is 20/20.

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        • Kurt Says:

          I don’t doubt that Dan can afford the dinner. However, some people act like it is no big deal when a woman goes out on a date with a man she isn’t interested in and takes a free meal or whatever. In my opinion, women who do this are greedy and selfish – they know that the guy likes them and they probably also know that they don’t really like the guy that much themselves.

          I suppose that Dan’s big mistake was taking a woman he barely knew to dinner. It would have been a better strategy for him to meet her for drinks or something else less formal than a dinner. If he was paying attention he probably could have figured out that she wasn’t interested if he had only met her for drinks and then he wouldn’t have felt like he was led on.

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          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            Yup. You’ve said that before.

            Comment Guidelines. Get familiar with them please.
            http://atwys.baltimorewebsitedesign.net/commenting-guildelines/

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          • Selena Says:

            Dan had already met her for drinks Kurt – they met at a bar. He took her to dinner on their first date. On the second, she said she would meet him for lunch or dinner. He CHOSE dinner. And he has said he doesn’t regret the dinners because he wanted to try those restaurants.

            Dinner is apparently a big deal to you Kurt, but some of us invite people to join us for dinner because we would like their company. Without any ulterior motives.

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      • Selena Says:

        She probably was somewhat attracted to him at first but then changed her mind for whatever reason.

        That would seem the most logical explanation. And perhaps that’s what she realized on the second date and the reason she told him she wasn’t looking for a relationship then. That’s not “leading him on” to anything.

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  23. Dan Says:

    Hmmm, my post generated more comments than I thought. In any event, let me provide more information and a rebuttal to some of the comments on here:

    1) I paid for both dates. And no, I am not angry about paying. I asked her out and, besides, I wanted to try those places for dinner as I was very hungry after a long work day. Also, the places I suggested were convenient in that they were both close to our workplaces. Plus, I’m not cheap like WO7. lol

    2) I agree with Kurt. If she was not interested in me and knew that by the second date I would rather that she would not have gone out with me. Or she could have split the bill–which was not going to happen. However, that’s how some women are (e.g. free meal) and as for her motivation for telling me off who the hell knows. Maybe I talked with my mouth full. It’s not like I am going to call her up and ask.

    3) As for initiating any future communciation, I’m not doing it. Unsolicitated,she told me how she felt about me during dinner and has not communicated with me since. That sums it up for me. Besides, why should I do all the work? I read what Paula wrote and I appreciate her perspective but that never happens in real life. A women makes a decision whether she wants to see you in a short period of time. There is none of this “taking awhile to figure things out.” That’s Hollywood b/s. Most women, today, have plenty of options and decide who they will reproduce with in a matter of seconds.

    4) In response to being labeled a douch by NOCTURNAL for not wanting to be friends, why would I maintain contact with a girl who clearly does not want to hear from me? I have not received anymore communication from her since we last went out on tuesday and I texted her “thanks for the evening etc.” on Wednesday. Screw that. NOCTURNAL if that’s what you get off on, being a friend to some chick and hearing about her complain about her boyfriend, that’s your preference. Who the hella re you dating NOCTURNAL?

    5) In summary, I would have liked to have gotten to know this girl better. Sitting at my chair listening to her, I was not sure if she was long-term material. She sounded like a borderline alcoholic and plus she said she had to take anger management classes in high school. hahahaha However, that’s why you date. Plus, I could have done casual. However, she made her snap judgment and I was done.

    6) In hindsight, the one thing I would change would be the second date. I should have made it sa weeknight date rather than a weekday date.

    If anyone disagrees with my positionsI am eager to hear how.

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    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      I, for one, like your style and am thoroughly enjoying your commentary, no homo. Though, I’m trying to figure out if you normally comment here under a different name. I’m on to you….

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    • NOCTURNAL Says:

      First of all, I did not mean to call you A douche LOL You just are partaking in *typical douche* behavior lol

      I mean, you NEVER offered up ANY of that info up until now . .so, HOW are we supposed to know that any of this happened since ? C’mon Dan !

      Honestly, it STILL doesan’t change much of my opinion because at the end of the day ..so what that she hasn’t reach out to you ? NEITHER HAVE YOU ! lol You gave up .you’re not putting any effort in…EVEN if it is JUST as a *friend*. I ASSURE you if you hit her up ..she will continue being cool and keep the convo going and you at least have an OPPORTUNITY. RIght now, you ARE being that *typical douche* and are PROVING to her that you ARE *just like every other guy* who runs at the first sign of things NOT going your way and that you have NO interest in GETTING to know HER.

      IF you have ZERO interest in meeting new people and even knowing a hot, younger chick WHICH could always lead to meeting MORE hot, younger chicks (her friends) that is just counter-productive and you are shooting yourself in the foot.

      Bottom line …I’m not telling you to listen to her give you a play by play of her banging some other guy, BUT if you are going to be FRIENDS ..then BE a friend…and LISTENING is what friends do. If you really have no interest in at the very least making a new friend..and just want to give up ..then, just continue doing what you’re doing.

      As for me, I just dumped my Slovakian 5’10 128lb former fit model GF in June. :) So, Im doing quite alright. Im *talking* to several people, but the frontrunner right now is this very hot, younger latina..oh ..and guess what ? We are friends FIRST. Shocking, eh ? lol

      Not trying to be a dick. Trust me ..we ARE getting older and Im sure it’s not easy out there, BUT I don’t think it’s any easier if you just dismiss chicks because they don’t JUMP at the chance to be with you. Put a lil effort in ..you’d be amazed at what could happen ! Good Luck !

      ~H

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    • Maargen Says:

      Although I agree with you fort the most part Dan, I think your post demonstrates why these issues are so tricky to navigate.

      You say that you would have liked to get to know her better, and seem to regret her “snap judgement”, while a few people say that it was wrong of her to go out with you twice – she should have made an even snappier judgement and refused the second date.

      It’s actually possible that she herself was thinking the same thing you were: that she would like to get to know you better, can’t figure out if you’re long-term material, and would want to do casual to figure things out. Meanwhile, she doesn’t want to give you the impression that she’s more into you than she is.

      It sounds to me now as if you’re both open to the same thing: casual.

      Dating is full of unspoken dialogue, and here’s the “conversation” I hear going on here:

      You: I would like to get to know you better. Let’s have dinner.

      She: I don’t know what your expectations of this is, but if you’re looking for a girlfriend right away, I’m not up for that. Here’s what I’m up for: a casual thing.

      If she really is up for a casual thing, she won’t achieve it by refusing your iinvitations. So she accepted your invitation and told you where she stood. If casual works for you, fine. If that’s not what you were looking for – walk away. If she was a “dinner whore”, or just wanted your attention, she would not have volunteered what she did: she would have strung you along until you figured it out.

      I don’t see that she’s made it at all clear that she doesn’t want to hear from you. The next move is yours: it’s up to you to accept or reject her offer of casual. Chances are she won’t reach out to you with the assumption that casual is ok with you. You have to be the one to let her know that it is. Of course, she may not have been sincere in her offer: you’ll be able to guage that by her reception of you. If you want the opportunity to get to know her better, there’s nothing stopping you from calling her to say hi. In a casual sort of way.

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      • Dan Says:

        Maargen:

        What are you danish i.e. Maargen?

        Anyway, I agree with you-this is what makes dating so difficult to navigate and tricky but interesting at the same time. I just think her remark caught me off guard and after sometime to reflect I have a fuller understanding of my options. I just wish dating was more black and white but, alas, it is not. .

        But, I still stand behind my statement regarding if she was not interested she should not have gone on the second date. However, you never know what’s going on in a person’s mind or what they truly mean. It boild down to contacting them again and seeing how they react. That’s the only surefire way of knowing.

        Anyway, thanks for the input–it’s appreciated.

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    • Paula Says:

      >>>I read what Paula wrote and I appreciate her perspective but that never happens in real life. A women makes a decision whether she wants to see you in a short period of time.

      Ain’t I a woman?

      But seriously, you’re selling yourself short if you tell yourself that. Most women take longer to decide whether you’re someone they want to date than men do, in my experience. Men right away decide if you’re someone they just want to have sex with, or they’ll keep jumping through the hoops to date you, but it often takes longer for attraction to build for most women.

      Look, this woman could have just blown you off before the second date, but she rescheduled it and even did it on a day when she was likely to be tired. You might have said something to offend her or that presented a dealbreaker for her. Or maybe she accepted the second date in order to tell you in person that she wanted something casual so she could gauge your reaction.

      As long as you are still engaging us on this…let me ask: what did she say to indicate she was putting you in the friend zone or never wanted to see you again? (Because nothing you told us in your original post indicates that.) Are you really so eager to only be in a relationship that you wouldn’t consider dating her casually? I just don’t get that she blew you off from what you’ve told us. I just see that she isn’t ready for a relationship with you right now, which could be nothing more than a matter of timing. You can keep nursing this feeling of being rejected (which maybe doesn’t happen so often?) or you can accept what she’s able to give and see where it goes.

      I made the mistake when moving to my current city of jumping into a relationship right away, which lasted for 2 1/2 years. So I made very few friends, had very little time to get to know the city, and ceded most of the control of what disposable time I had to another person. It wasn’t until I was single that I was able to develop the group of friends and hobbies that are an important part of my life right now. So I can relate to not wanting to jump into something big right after you move somewhere — in hindsight, I wish I hadn’t done that.

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  24. Selena Says:

    Not disagreeing, but I don’t understand your last sentence about how you would change the second date.

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  25. Dan Says:

    I am saying, looking back, i probably should have tried to schedule the second date for a froday or saturday rather than a weeknight e.g. Tuesday.

    After work, you tend to be tired and sometimes you are not at your best. Also, I have found that trying to schedule a weekend date is a good way to weed out people who are not very interested. In other wrods, if someone can’t give up a weekend to see you then I assume they are not that interested.

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    • Selena Says:

      Yes, I can see how turning down a weekend date could weed out those who aren’t too interested. Except dinner whores ofcourse. lol.

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  26. nathan Says:

    Dan, I think you might have had the same result no matter what. She may have gone on the second date on a Friday or Sat., perhaps to see if her feelings had shifted or something. But it just seems like the whole situation was a case of “it didn’t work out.” I have had plenty of these things fizzle out after a few dates. In fact, it’s probably been just as often that I opted for a second date, thinking “I’m not sure I’m really interested” as it has been the woman doing so.

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  27. Selena Says:

    Also, there has been alot of discussion on this blog about the “right” way to reject someone. Maybe this woman felt telling you in person she wasn’t interested in a relationship was better manners than telling you by phone, or text, or simply not responding to any communication from you and letting you get the message that way.

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