Dating Payment Plans

Name: confusedolderchickwomaneer-flirting
Age:  55

State: NY
Question: I know I am older and have been out of the game for a while, but something really confuses me. I met a couple of guys over craigslist and we agreed to meet for the first time for coffee.(OK maybe using craigslist was my first mistake). The first one met me in front of a Dean & DeLuca. When we went inside he got a tray and got on line in front of me, and did not ask me if I wanted anything. He got himself a piece of cake and a tea, and paid for them, and stood there and waited for me to do something. What I wanted to do was leave, but I took a breath, bought something and joined him. We found a place to sit and talked a little. A week later he called me and said he had tickets to a play. We met for dinner first. When the check came, he said, “Do you want to split this?” I paid for what I ate. We went to the play and he did not ask me to reimburse me for the ticket I used. During intermission he went to the bathroom and I looked at the ticket stubs. They said Complimentary. Oh well, at least he thought of me. He called me again, I did not get back to him right away because I was not feeling well, I got another call from him and from his tone he sounded insulted that he hadn’t heard from me in a while, so I never contacted him again because I don’t like possessive men. The second guy asked if we could meet in a Barnes & Noble which we did. We went to an Au Bon Pain nearby and he did the same thing. Did not ask me what I wanted, got in line in front of me, bought himself a tea and sat down, like I was supposed to know what to do in this situation. I think I got a free water or something, I was feeling kind of dazed. We talked a little bit. He called me about two weeks later basically asking to have sex with me. I declined. What is up with these guys? I am not a golddigger but at the first meeting you cannot buy a girl a coffee? I’m sorry but I’m not used to this. I guess because they were younger guys. I am going to stick with men my age or older from now on. I just found all of this extremely rude.


Well, you hit on my first point. Free dating sites tend to attract a lot of people who aren’t terribly invested in the process or looking for anything substantive. Sure, you might pull up a great big fish once in a while. But for the most part the free sites draw the people who are on there for kicks, for sex or just to get out and go on dates with no real interest in anything more.

I’m torn between calling these guys out for being cheap and saying that nowadays people just aren’t investing much money in to dating because many aren’t looking for anything too serious anymore. Again, I’ll cite this as another trend borne from online dating. People are just so tired of going on date after date, shelling out their hard earned money, only to be disappointed. So, they’re choosing to date on the cheap until they know there’s a pay off, be it in the form of true love, companionship or sex. Are these guys cheap? Or are they just being smart? That’s what is up for debate.

I know you weren’t expecting these men to treat you to a meal. I understand why having  a man offer to pay for your tea or sandwich is important. You want to feel valued and that they are trying to impress you. That’s what we equate with genuine interest. By not offering to pay the tab, what the other person is saying – or at least what we hear in our heads – is, “Not Interested.” It’s hurtful. That may not be how the other person intends to come off, but that’s what we end up feeling. Hurt. Maybe even a little embarrassed and confused. Anyone remember that old SNL skit Caveman Lawyer?  Caveman Lawyer, having been frozen for hundreds or thousands of years, is thrust back in to the real world and practices law. He’s thrown by how society has evolved. (“Your world frightens and confuses me.”) That’s what it’s like to be in the dating scene now. Things are changing quickly. Nobody knows what to expect. Traditional rules have fallen away. That has people so turned inside out that they no longer know what the protocol is. I guarantee you there are men out there not offering to pay because they think it’s the right thing to do, and that there are women out there offering to split the bill because they think that’s appropriate. That’s A LOT of mixed signals and misinterpretations., which only leads to frustration and confusion.

The problem is that we use the wrong things as a barometer to gauge interest and investment , ignoring everything else. You and your date could have had easy conversation, they could have seemed very sweet and nice and attractive, but if they didn’t offer to pay the full bill or pay their share, they’re almost always immediately crossed off the list. If he texts instead of calls, he’s lazy.  Bottom line? We’re just all too damn scared to take the leap of faith anymore. That’s what it comes down to. People are exhausted. We either have developed abysmally low expectations or ridiculously high ones. That’s what is up with these guys, OP. That’s what’s going on all over. Not just with the men.

My suggestion to you is this:

1. Sign up for a paid online dating site.

2. Take a more proactive role in planning the dates. Don’t sit back and let the guy decide. Come up with suggestions. None of this let’s meet at an Au Bon Pain junk. Not because that screams Cheapo! but because that’s just not the right environment for a date.

3. Meet someplace where you can talk that won’t cost a lot of money. The first meeting from an online dating site isn’t really a date, anyway, so the who pays issue should be moot. You should both plan on paying your own way. Men our age aren’t looking for a woman who can’t support herself. At 25, that’s all kinds of adorable. Not at 35, 40 or 45 and older.

4. Realize that you’re both there to impress each other. Just looking good isn’t enough. Letting a man pay doesn’t make you look feminine or vulnerable. It means you’re letting him pay for you. That’s it. That is not a statement of your character. Just like whether or not he pays is not a statement of his.


Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...

121 Responses to “Dating Payment Plans”

  1. D Says:

    I always pay on the first date, but the first date is almost always coffee. Sometimes it evolves into dinner (again, I pay) but if there’s no chemistry it’s easy to bolt after an hour.

    Oh, if I get to the coffee shop before her, I usually get my drink and have a seat. In that case she may end up paying her own way.

    • nathan Says:

      Women frequently bolt after an hour if there’s no chemistry as well. Maybe D appears cheap to some of you, but coffee dates are all about the flexibility of meeting someone, and then leaving early if you’re not interested.

    • Andrew Says:

      I agree with most of what Moxie says. Only one clarifying bit, I would want to add. It’s fine for a woman to participate in planning for the activity and destination of the date, if she is particpating in the financing of the date. What is clearly wrong is someone making demands to go on a certain type of date and demanding that the other person pay for all of it. And that works for both sides of the coin. If a guy demands the date be a certain way, then he should be willing to pay for all of it.

      The reasons, I am fine with paying for the first date is that I am making the decisons about location and activity and I am doing the inviting out. But rest assured if that changes, then the financing changes.

  2. uesider Says:

    “Letting a man pay doesn’t make you look feminine or vulnerable. It means you’re letting him pay for you. That’s it. That is not a statement of your character. Just like whether or not he pays is a statement of his.”

    Wow, double standard much? Getting a little tired of these games myself, which is why I grab the check whether or not I’m going to see the woman again or not. That’s just the cost of dating to me as a man, unfortunately. It does get a little expensive though, so I stick to drinks on the first date.

    I wonder among women who date regularly though, what percentage of men picks up the check on the first meeting? If you offer, do they allow you to share the check? What portion? Are you more insistent about picking up a portion if you aren’t going to see the guy again? Just curious, I have no plans to change my practice.

    • K Says:

      So far, each of the guys I’ve met online have not hesitated to pick up the check. One was for “a drink,” but then he suggested ordering dinner. Two were just for a drink. Another one was kind of a special case – we met for lunch because we don’t live close to each other. I paid for part of the meal – long story, but I did it in a way that he didn’t even realize I was doing it, and couldn’t argue with. I paid for part of it not because I wasn’t interested in seeing him again, but just because I didn’t feel right with him having to pick up the whole thing.

      I’m all about offering to pay, but honestly I do expect that the guy will pick up the check if he suggested we get together in the first place. If I met a guy for a drink or coffee and he ordered and paid for himself without even attempting to pay for me, I’d assume he’s either clueless or cheap, and would be very unlikely to go out with him again.

    • Paula Says:

      >>>I wonder among women who date regularly though, what percentage of men picks up the check on the first meeting? If you offer, do they allow you to share the check? What portion? Are you more insistent about picking up a portion if you aren’t going to see the guy again?

      About half pick up the check on the first date — the other half ask me how I would like to handle the check before picking it up. Of those who allow me to share the check, usually its an even split, or if they insist on paying, sometimes my second offer will be the tip unless I think it would appear ungracious. I’m fairly insistent on attempting to pay at least something regardless of whether I want to see them again; i.e., I don’t change my offer depending on how I feel about them.

      Because the dating service I use has a line for income, I find that those who are either in my income ballpark or have professional jobs are more likely to insist on paying than those who clearly make less than me, and I’m fine with that. Everyone should be able to pick up a coffee or a single drink for the other person, however, but at the same time have enough money on hand to pay for what they order instead of sticking the other person with a big bill.

      I don’t take whether they pay or not, or how much they spend, as any kind of indication of whether I will see them again or whether I want to see them again, because rarely does it have anything to do with that as far as I’m concerned. There are guys who believe in paying because that’s what they were taught to do or still believe the social convention to do so is alive and well, or because they have sufficient money and choose to do so. There are guys who don’t believe in paying because they think dating should be more equal between the sexes, or because they can’t afford to date regularly if they’re always forced to pay for expensive first dates that don’t work out. Both sides have merit and aren’t really worth debating.

  3. Craig Says:

    The OP needs to learn to approach dating as a 55 year old, not a 25 year old. The hoops a man was willing to jump through to win her affections at 25 aren’t going to happen at 55. Things have also changed quite a bit culturally since the OP’s prime dating years in the 70s and 80s. I guess you have Gloria Steinem to thank for that. The progress towards gender equality comes with a price. The days of the man being the sole breadwinner are over and gender roles have changed, so why do women still expect men to pay to “impress” them on dates when women now have their own funds?

    Don’t get me wrong: it’s still a nice gesture when a man treats a lady. My issue is when women expect it as if it’s an entitlement just because they have a vagina. When a guy meets a lady for the first time he doesn’t know her from a hole in the wall. So what has she done at that point to prove she deserves an evening out on his dime? Just showing up isn’t enough anymore. First dates are now about one thing: meeting to determine whether both parties want a second date. If they do, that is when the courting really begins. And BOTH parties now need to take part in the courting process. Who cares if a guy takes you to a play that was free? How much is spent on a date is irrelevant. What matters is you are the one he chose to go with. Someone’s time has value too – not just their money. When it comes to romance, the best things in life are often free. Focus on the likeability of the person – not how much they spend on you. The OP better learn this lesson quick or she’s in for a lot of frustration.

    • K Says:

      I don’t think this is so much about gender roles, or the ever popular sense of “female entitlement.” I think it’s pretty simple – whoever suggested the meeting should expect to pick up the check. Both people should be prepared to cover at least their part of the check, but generally the expectation is the person who asked should pay. It’s nice if the other person offers, of course.

      If the OP contacted both these guys initially and asked them both to meet, then maybe they expected to go dutch, which is why they went ahead and ordered and paid for themselves, or maybe they even expected her to pick up the check. And I guess that would be fine, but still I think it comes across as rude and clueless.

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “I don’t think this is so much about gender roles … whoever suggested the meeting should expect to pick up the check. ” Do you not see the irony there? Due to gender roles in our society, it’s almost always men doing the asking and therefore, under your “fair” rule, almost always men doing the paying.

        • Selena Says:

          You have the option not to ask anyone to accompany you somewhere you want to go CR if it means paying their way. It’s your choice. Always.

          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            Your response basically boils down to “if men don’t like paying for dates, they can always stop dating.” How romantic and very, very feminist of you.

            • K Says:

              CR, I think it’s been said a number of times before, that no one should go on a date unless they have the money to cover their share. No one is saying we think it’s right for the guy to always pay.

              You can always ask your date to pay her share if you don’t want to cover it. And she should be prepared to pay her share, preferably even offer to do so. If she doesn’t, you can choose not to go out with her again, just like she can choose not to go out with you again if she’s not into you or didn’t like that you asked / let her pay her share.

              Ralistically, though, would you really expect to ask a woman out on a date, and when the check comes she would grab it and pay the whole thing? Maybe after you’ve gone out a couple times, but on the first date? It just doesn’t make sense.

            • Selena Says:

              No CR, it means you don’t have to date women who don’t offer to pay their own way.

              What do you do now? If a woman doesn’t start paying her way after the first or second date do you continue to ask her out? Given your feelings on this subject I wouldn’t think so.

              • nathan Says:

                K – the fact that men probably ask women out 85-90% of the time on first dates is absolutely part of the issue here. Women often trot out the old who asks pays argument, knowing full well they almost never ask, and in many cases expect men to do the initiating.

                In addition, there’s almost no way to ask a date to pay her share (on a first date, where you know very little about each other) without placing yourself in a bad light. And who talks about preferred ways to pay before you even meet for the first time?

                Selena – you seem to assume that people who have like mindedness about these kinds of issues just find each other, which is true to some degree, but not probably as much as you’d like to think. I have been on a number of dates with women who were versed in feminist theories, claimed to want equal partnerships where a sense of independence was valued, and then turned around and said things like “a man should pay for dates” or “should “be chivalrous” or some other such contradictory sentiment. On the other hand, I have dated at least two women who would probably fall under the “more traditional” category when it comes to gender roles. And in both of those cases, the issue of paying for dates never came up. Not once. We paid our own ways until we got to know each other better, and then took turns covering bills after that.

                In the end, as a man who challenges gender role stereotypes, I’m aware of the fact that I’ll probably have a harder time. I get it why so many guys just go along with paying because it’s more complicated and risky not to. But I guess the way I see it, following along all the time is pretty dull, and also doesn’t even guarantee that you’ll actually get what you want anyway. Social conventions are only romantic if you truly love them in the first place.

                • Selena Says:

                  I do think people with like mindedness on this issue find each other. And because the issue IS splitting the check, they find out very quickly whether or not they same the same values, POV.

                  I sometimes find the level of antagonism by men on the internet out of proportion to the subject though. If a woman does not offer to pay for her drinks/meal/ activity/ whatever when the man invited her to accompany him – why get so mad? Just don’t invite her again. Invite a woman who’s more than willing to share all costs with you. Could it be any simpler?

    • Paula Says:

      I don’t think it’s about “the hoops a man was willing to jump through to win her affections at 25.” (Men of varying ages around here have indicated that they consider the outcome worth almost any price they typically have to pay.)

      But when she was 25, that was simply how it was done. And if she dated a 55 or 60-year-old, he would probably offer to pay and consider himself cheap and without manners if he didn’t do so. Starting at about age 45 or so, with Gen Xers, things started becoming more equivalent, and among 25 year olds, a woman is more likely to be college educated and make the same or more until the point at which she drops out of the workplace to have kids.

      The problem really arises for those between 30 and 45, where the standards have been evolving, or where there’s a significant age and/or income disparity between the two. There’s no longer any “right” answer, and fairness dictates the check shouldn’t fall on any one person just because of his or her gender. Or as long as “who asks, pays” is still a proxy for gender (since “who asks” has taken longer to equalize than “who pays”), that shouldn’t be the final word either.

    • confusedolderchick Says:

      Hi, I am the OP and I am going to chime in here. What seemed really rude to me was the fact that both of these guys got in front of me on the line and totally ignored me, just getting their food or drink as if I wasn’t there. That is what I found rude, even more than the payment issue. If I was out with a girlfriend and we were both paying for our drinks, she would have at least acknowledged me as a human being. The way they acted was dehumanizing. And then it seemed they both wanted to continue some kind of relationship with me. It did not compute.

      • Paula Says:

        That’s a completely different issue — rudeness and lack of solicitousness are never attractive, and that has little to do with who pays. Maybe it was social awkwardness, but that’s a pretty extreme manifestation of it.

      • 1stMaverick Says:

        Maybe we should go out, since I keep meeting deadbeats and you meet cheapskates.

      • Divorced Joe Says:

        If it’s about rudeness, why are you nitpicking about cheapness and avoiding the actual issue? And if you found it so rude, why didn’t you say so and just leave? Why nitpick about him paying? Would it have been okay if he had paid? (As in, he can treat me like shit if he pays!)

    • Andrew Says:

      I did think her checking the tickets and seeing complimentary, leaves her in an unenviale place. Kinda like looking a gift horse in the mouth. I am always miffed by a woman looking at the bill, making no offer to at least cover the tip, when I am paying the bill. If a woman is not paying the bill or leaving the tip, the only reasons she is looking at the bill are ones that speaks to serious flaws in her character.

  4. nathan Says:

    You know, this is such a tired conversation. I’m well aware that the majority of women think that men should pay for a first date, period. Some go beyond that, suggesting a man isn’t invested or interested unless he foots the bill for several dates without hesitation.

    What women should know is that more and more men are seriously questioning this narrative. It made much more sense when women were either not working, or working really low level jobs. Now, it’s not infrequent that a woman on a date makes more than her date. Happens to me a lot, given my choice of careers (in the non-profit world.)

    I’m also aware of the fact that many men, perhaps the majority still go along with paying for the first date. When it’s dinner, I often still go along myself, but more in the manner of Uesider. Especially if I like the woman, it’s a preventative measure, but it still seems a bit ridiculous.

    Craig’s point about just showing up is also important to consider. It’s different to go on a first date with a total stranger who you met online, than it is, for example, to go on a first date with someone you know at least a little bit. The friend of a friend or family member you’ve met at gatherings before. Or someone from a group activity you’re involved in. You might already have some sense of what this person is like, and naturally feel like offering to pay for dinner or drinks.

    Whereas with dating a stranger, of whom you know what they wrote in a profile and a few e-mails perhaps, you know next to nothing. And so paying is a forced gesture which doesn’t really have a particular meaning attached to it. While some women think it’s a sign of interest and caring, it’s just as likely to be a sign of conforming to some arbitrary rules.

    Furthermore, the whole “whoever asks pays” rule is also kind of ridiculous when men still do 85-90% of the asking out on first dates.

    We are probably dating strangers much more often now than in the past, due to the increase in online dating, personal ads, and singles events, among other things. And I just think that people have to take that into consideration. Meeting someone for coffee or a drink isn’t really that special. Nor does it really entitle anyone to anything. I have had multiple experiences of being one of two “dates” a woman scheduled on a particular day. And while it was a bit irritating to find that out, it also made some sense, given how dating is so much like shopping these days.

    I guess whenever this discussion about paying comes up, I think: Why can’t you all just go out and enjoy each others’ company? If you actually like each other, there will be plenty of time in the future to determine if, for example, a man is cheap or not.

    • confusedolderchick Says:

      Why can’t you just pay a dollar for a tea? I know guys buy each other drinks in bars all the time.

      • Divorced Joe Says:

        Why can’t YOU just pay a dollar for tea. I know gals buy each other drinks in bars all the time.

        Everything you and every women throw out can be turned back on yourself. You are throwing a fit over not wanting to pay a buck. How cheap is that?

        • confusedolderchick Says:

          Angry arent’ we?
          Why can’t you guys just be nice? This is why I just don’t want to bother anymore, it’s just not worth it. Why risk STDs. cystitis, yeast infections for what? GIve me a vibrator or another woman.

          • Beth B Says:

            You go, girl! Nice will win fair lady pretty much every time! (Don’t give up on all men, though, because of a few vocal, perhaps bitter, ones.)

          • Divorced Joe Says:

            Why the projection? I’m just calling it like it is. You claim someone is cheap because they won’t pay a buck. What does that make you? Moreover, why can’t you be nice and just pay and not complain?

            The hypocrisy here still surprises me.

            And once again, why the immediate resort to ad hominem attacks about being angry, bitter, etc when someone forcefully disagrees with a poster or calls out their hypocrisy? Can’t you come up with an actual counter argument?

            The weird part is that you are the one coming across as extremely bitter and even delusional. If men suck so bad, why are you bothering? “GIve me a vibrator or another woman.” You don’t believe that else you would be complaining about cheap lesbians you found on Craigslist.

            • Andrew Says:

              Get used to the ad hominen attacks on this board Joe. I get them all the time, even the moderator on this board called my life a giant circle jerk one time. And I have never ever attacked anyone personally on this board. And when I called her out for it, I get more egg on my face. But don’t worry about it. If you have ever take a class in Logic, you would know fallacious arguments are nothing more than white flags of surrender. All of them, ad hominen, Tuo quo, Red herrings, Begging the question etc. Ad hominen attacks mean they have nothing more logical to say, so they resort to an insult.

          • Kurt Says:

            These guys don’t want to be “nice” because too many women associate being nice or courteous with being a wimpy pushover.

  5. Paula Says:

    >>>Letting a man pay doesn’t make you look feminine or vulnerable. It means you’re letting him pay for you. That’s it. That is not a statement of your character. Just like whether or not he pays is a statement of his.

    I could be wrong, but based upon Moxie’s past treatment of this subject and the way it’s expressed here, I think Moxie meant to say “Just like whether or not he pays is NOT a statement of his.”

  6. Saj Says:

    It’s not much different when you are younger. I think over half the dates were dutch that I went out on and it was easier just to have it in the back of your head that you’ll probably be paying a portion of the date. However despite all of this Chivalry IS attractive to many women. I know it is to me. When a man opens your car door or pulls out your chair before you sit down it’s just an amazing feeling. Maybe because my husband was a waiter at a fancy restaurant this wasn’t unusual for him. His grandparents also grilled chivalry into his brain from a young age. This was also a 27 year old guy not someone in his 50’s.

    So after a few dates where the dutch bomb was dropped or even in one case the guy forgot his wallet so I covered his tab when I went out with someone who had no problems playing for my 5 dollar meal it was great. Now I make a lot more money then him and we all pool our money anyway but those chivalry gestures (opening doors, walking street side) are still there and it’s wonderful.

    So while dutch is fine I also have to wonder how these people are going on date after date after date to the burn out gotta keep it in the budget stage. If it’s a personal choice to just keep dating forever that’s one thing and that is just the cost of maintaining that sort of life style but if you keep meeting people and can’t seem to get to a third or 5th or even exclusiveness where dutch happens much more often then these people are dating wrong. Picking the wrong types, using the wrong medium ect.

    I don’t think guys realize how much they are blowing it when they think they are being clever with coffee and drinks date. What D did while I would not say anything about on the date would have already made a lousy first impression instead of waiting for me to get there.

    • D Says:

      When a girl gets there after me, it’s because she’s late. What does that say about her?

      None of this really matters. Most girls I meet are not worth a second date. And when I do ask for a second date I get a yes 95% of the time, so I must be doing everything else right.

    • pistola Says:

      I have to agree with Saj on this. There’s really no reason not to wait a few moments for the other person to show up. If they’re more than 5-10 minutes late it’s not a good sign anyway, especially in this day and age where you can text a person to let them know you’re running late. Politeness is free, you know.

      • nathan Says:

        Given my less than conventional work schedule, if I schedule a date for coffee, I sometimes show up an hour beforehand to do some writing or other work on the internet. Paying for my drink ahead of time has nothing to do with trying to sneak behind a woman’s back, or not waiting for her.

        In addition, I’ve had the opposite happen where I show up and my date has already been there awhile reading, or doing something online.

        Some of you seem entirely too intent on reading every last action as a sign of rudeness or cheapness. It’s like you’re looking for easy ways to dismiss people, instead of actually spending time getting to know them first.

        • pistola Says:

          Maybe it’s a matter of how “special” one considers a first date, Nathan. I personally would never combine scheduling a date with doing work. To me even a little meet-and-greet is something that I always made time and space for and treated as a separate incident from the rest of my day, for the same reasons I always silenced the cell ringer and didn’t write or respond to texts during a date. Who knows, perhaps I’m just old fashioned.

        • confusedolderchick Says:

          Mr Nathan
          Rude is rude, cheap is cheap. Deal with it.

          • nathan Says:

            Confused, you’re blunt attitude here is part of the problem. If you always want to right, you’ll never find anyone to be with.

            • nathan Says:

              Amend that to read “If you always want to be right, instead of respond to what’s actually happening around you, then you’ll never find anyone to be with.”

    • Pedro Says:

      Saj you said, “I don’t think guys realize how much they are blowing it when they think they are being clever with coffee and drinks date.” I never looked at it like that before. A few weeks ago I was incensed with the tenor of this same topic on this board, but your statement has opened my eyes. I think that if more of us took the “old-school” route when it came to interacting with each other we might get better results. Examples for guys: opening doors, holding chairs, wearing a jacket to an evening date, making a date for a MEAL, standing up when a lady leaves or approaches the table, letting the lady lead to or from the table, walking curbside. I’d need some help on the examples for women but I’m sure everyone gets the point. Forget money and who pays or offers to pay first. The opening cues mentioned above should tell you most of what you need to know. BTW, I’m 47 so that might have something to do with my perspective.

  7. uesider Says:

    I didn’t see D as being “clever”, I just saw it as just how the nature of a Starbucks/coffee date works- you get in line and pay. Perhaps the woman gets her coffee first and then joins him. With drinks or dinner, you order from the seat and pay at the end of the evening, so the “who pays” part of it is more facile.

  8. anon Says:

    Well I think the man should pay for the first date. I’ve never had a man ask me to split the check on a first ate. He just automatically pays. I do however, always bring money to cover my meals just in case. After I’ve been dating the same person for awhile then I start paying for dates as well. But I am 27, so maybe I haven’t hit the range moxie spoke of.

    • dimplz Says:

      I agree. It’s never been a discussion for me of who pays. I’m either incredibly lucky or have attracted a certain kind of person. I think what the OP says at the end is important. She should be dating men who are older. Not to say they won’t be the same and NOT want to pick up the check, but just because they are more likely to have similar values and experiences.

    • Vox Says:

      I’m 41, and I don’t pay for first dates either. I have never even had a man suggest I pay; in fact I’d find it bizarre if one did. I don’t do coffee dates either, though I will (and have) done interesting freebie dates. I don’t know if I’m lucky or what. And I don’t look like a model either so it isn’t that.

  9. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    I think Moxie’s enumerated suggestions are spot on. In the even the OP insists on Au Bon Pain in the future, however, I’ve devised a little strategy for her.

    The next time the guy goes to pay for his own tea and croissant without offering to pay for yours, the OP herself should insist on paying for both. See what his reaction is. Most likely, he will refuse and insist on paying for both and you will have avoided any awkwardness resulting from his original social blunder. If he stands on principle and insists on going dutch, well, at least you know where you stand.

    Not paying for someone’s coffee seems more like cluelessness than rudeness or cheapness to me.

    Ok, now I will stand aside and let the “who pays” waterfall of commentary continue.

    • Cricri Says:

      I actually like your technique just because I like to trick people into looking ridiculous (and I’m not afraid to pay for it). I really don’t care whether guys pay for me or not, I just appreciate when they do. But I certainly remember it!

      • Selena Says:

        ” I really don’t care whether guys pay for me or not, I just appreciate when they do. But I certainly remember it!”

        Yes. Men who graciously pick up the check often get an “edge” over their “It’s 2011! Why should I pay for her?” counterparts.

        Just an observation guys. ;)

      • Andrew Says:

        Then that means you want a man to pay. I suppose it’s like saying I don’t want a woman to cook for me, but if she does she gets an edge. Or, I don’t have a time frame when a woman should have sex with me, but if she does by the fifth date, she has an edge. If a guy says that, he means he wants a woman to cook for him or he wants her to have sex with him by the fifth date.

        That one dimensional thinking I run as far away possible from. Every situation is different; every person is different. I would like to think people can get evolved enough to handle that.

        • Saj Says:

          I hate cooking and I know a women who loved it would get an edge. I just have to compensate for it in other ways rather then scold men for enjoying being cooked for.

        • Selena Says:

          Cooking for someone can be a more relaxing way to spend time together rather than a crowded, noisy restaurant. Even more enjoyable if you prepare a meal together. More intimate.

          You are right though,every person is different. What one person might consider an “edge” another might not. Applies to everything.

  10. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    Can we talk about the clueless factor for a second?

    I’ve always thought it looked rude to arrive at aplace first and order a drink first before the other person arrives. The few times I’ve done it is when I arrived really early and thought I had enough time to finish my drink before they arrived. To me it just seems very socially awkward.

    Next, what about the people who order water at a bar? I’ve heard women say they’ll have one drink and then just sit there with a water whie they’re date orders another drink. Am I the only one who thinks that’s a little off puttting?

    I don’t know. Things like that always made me me worry that I was sending the wrong message or signal.

    • chuckrock Says:

      I am typically early for things, it is just my style. Depending on how early and whether there is limited space where we are meeting (ie. i want to get that couch at the coffee shop or i want a spot at the bar with two seats and it isn’t empty) will determine whether I order or not before a date arrives. I never considered whether it looked rude that I did so.

      If it is a bar i will always ask her if she wants something when she arrives with the intentin of paying for it. at a coffee shop, because of the lay out and dynamic, typically she would get her coffee before coming over to meet me and thus she would have paid for herself.

      I’m not a huge fan of the order water at the bar person. Why did you accept meeting for drinks if you didn’t want to have a drink? I agree that situation would be off putting to me.

    • D Says:

      I don’t drink alcohol. What’s *really* offputting is when my date won’t believe that and insists I order something.

    • Mandy Says:

      I don’t think it’s rude to order something if you’re there early…but if you get there on time, and the other person isn’t more than a couple minutes late, then I think it’s a little weird/rude. Like that person just assumed I’d be late? Or they didn’t care and just wanted to start drinking? I dunno…it’s just different if the person is there early vs. just not waiting for you. I also think the person who’s already there with a drink should definitely ask the person arriving if they want anything, and then flag down the bartender, etc. for her, for example.

      I think it’s off putting if someone agrees to meet for a drink and then only gets water. I’m not saying someone has to get alcohol, but get SOMETHING. Soda, coffee, etc. Not the free water. Why meet for a drink if you don’t want a drink (and I don’t mean just alcohol)?! Otherwise, you should have planned something else.

    • Angeline Says:

      As someone who has worked as a bartender as a 2nd job a good bit over the years, saints deliver me from people who order water at a bar (unless they’re DDing). The thing that I kept thinking as this discussion developed over whether to order if you arrive first, and the idea that it’s not appropriate somehow not to, I was thinking, ‘you’re gonna take up a seat, probably two, to save one for the other party, and NOT drink?’ I think the bigger the city, the harder it is to perfectly synchronize your arrivals. If the situation wasn’t so laced with the “who pays”, then the answer is obvious – order when the server approaches, and the 2nd arrival orders when they get there.

      And for heaven’s sake ladies, tip. If you can’t afford the tip, you can’t afford the drink. Now there’s a great way to blow a good impression – don’t tip your server (assuming you got good service).

  11. confusedolderchick Says:

    Hi, I am the OP again. To be blunt, I don’t really think I need a man all that much after reading the responses. Thank you all for enlightening me, but I could do bad by myself and I don’t like rudeness and inconsiderateness. I think I have found a free site where there are guys my age and older. If I find someone there, great, if not, I am not going out of my way.

    • bill Says:

      Realistically stop meeting men online. Date the ones you meet in person. That will solve 90% of your problems.

      • confusedolderchick Says:

        I don’t know where to meet single 60 year old men in person.

        • VJ Says:

          “I don’t know where to meet single 60 year old men in person”.CFOC

          I’ll bite:

          1.) On the golf course.

          2.) On the tennis courts.

          3.) Swimming at the Y/community center.

          4.) Walmart greeters. (Hey they’re Friendly, right?)

          5.) Classic car rallies/shows/auctions.

          6.) Hunting or fishing venues or stores.

          7.) Antiquing, see especially the vendors.

          8.) Watch shops/conventions/shows. Ditto for coins & gun shows too.

          9.) ‘Early Bird’ Dinner special @ Denny’s/Shoney’s/Cracker Barrel or local dinner.

          10.) IHOP before (or after) church on sundays. Also Ryan’s or similar inexpensive steak house.

          11.) Auto parts supply stores & hardware stores any early Sat. afternoon.

          12.) Bingo/BBQ or similar at the VFW local American Legion hall.

          There you go, no need to thank me. Put on some more AA batteries then? Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • D Says:

      I love that it’s important to you that the guy pay, but you only use free sites.

      • confusedolderchick Says:

        It was the rudeness that bothered me more, and the inconsiderateness. I have stated it several time. Your assumption and misinterpretation seems deliberate and i think we are dealing more with your baggage at this point. I sense some hidden hostility here. Maybe it’s time for you to take a break from this dating business. It is not the only thing in life you know. You sound jaded and tired.

        • D Says:

          Nah, not hidden hostility. Just poking fun. I’ve had several really good dates of late. And I even paid for all of them! :)

        • nathan Says:

          You know, Confused – what’s rude and not rude is often pretty subjective. I have had women tell me that doing things like pulling out a chair for them or even paying for everything is rude to them. Others see it exactly the opposite. And others aren’t moved either way about those kinds of things.

          Having been on dozens of dates in the last few years, one of the main things I have learned is to lighten up on all of this kind of stuff. Especially because we’re strangers, and don’t know what ticks the other person off. I could bend over backwards trying to please every woman I go out with, but even that backfires because a people pleaser isn’t sexy.

          So, really, instead of rejecting every last guy you’re meeting because they don’t pay for coffee, or do what you think they should do on a first date – lighten up a bit and maybe pay attention to the rest of what’s happening.

          Does the guy seems kind and attentive to you? Is he funny? Does he seem to be over relationships from the past? Is he open to new ideas?

          It amazes me sometimes how much stock some women place in something like paying for a drink or a meal.

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Well, come on. You posted an ad on Craigslist of all places. You set yourself up for disappointment by doing that. Now you’re saying you’re going to stick with the free sites anyway. You won’t pay for a service, but yet you can’t understand why a man won’t pay for your tea. It’s the same reason – you don’t want to invest money in something that might not have a pay off.

      If I find someone there, great, if not, I am not going out of my way.

      Then don’t bother dating at all. Seriously. If you’re not going to go out of your way, then stay home and don’t waste anyone’s time.

      I’m sorry to be terse, but this is the tone I hear all over the blogosphere. Sorry, ladies. Dating after 35 requires effort.

      • dimplz Says:

        Dating at any age requires an effort. It’s just that most people wait until they are out of their 20s to look for substance and commitment. After that, you have to do some real work if you’re looking for a long-term commitment. I tried finding that in my 20s and it was a lot of work, because most people weren’t in the mindframe to look for LTR at that age. Then I hit my 30s and it was the same amount of effort. It always is, because you’re looking for a certain kind of person. If this woman is 55, she has to realize it will be the same amount of effort, and same amount of work. The difference is, when you are older, you tend to be less tolerant. You have to reclaim the tolerance and diligence of your youth because nothing worthwhile comes easily.

    • Andrew Says:

      Now, who is cheap? free site with……

  12. Kiki Strickland Says:

    Don’t get discouraged, OP! There are plenty of GENTLEMEN out there that know how to treat a lady, young and old. They ask you out and take you out. No man has ever asked me to pay for my date with him, because yes, they are usually trying to woo and show how considerate they are. If he doesn’t, he is not worthy of your time. I mean, come on – a coffee? He’s going to stand in front of you and order and not even ASK if you want anything? That’s just plain rude. You are right, even friends of the same sex usually say, “Do you want anything?”

    Now the problem can come in when YOU ask THEM out. Don’t do it. If he wants to take you out, he’ll initiate it. If he doesn’t, he isn’t interested and will probably do exactly what those guys did – leave you with a bill since he is not thinking of it as a date.

    • confusedolderchick Says:

      For the record, those two guys suggested that we meet for “coffee”.

    • chuckrock Says:

      This is bad advice. If you like someone, ask them out. do not wait and twiddle your thumbs while life passes you by.

    • D Says:

      I do agree that it’s rude to behave this way. Like I said before, I always pay on the first date, including coffee of course, unless she’s late.

    • Angeline Says:

      I think folkks are missing the point (OP included) that a first meet from an online site is rarely a date, but she didn’t realize it. She thought she was being asked out on a Date. It’s more of a casting call. See if you look like your photos, see if you’re overtly crazy, see if you can string a few words together. It’s not a pleasant process, and the shitty people who post fake or 20 year old pics, or are so socially inept or downright nuts but date anyway, have made it thus for all of us.

      OP, I was struck by the line that you didn’t know what to do … come on. You’d already had one of these interviews. I think it was the fact that it was a coffee/screening/interview put you off before you ever got there, and you saw everything through an already insulted lens. Guess what, very few of the men you meet online are going to ask you out for a full-on date without confirming that you are as presented, unless they are very new to online dating and haven’t gotten burned yet. It is’t a personal insult to your integity or honesty, although it can be hard not to take it that way. Ask any men you know (of any age) if they have a story of first meeting gone wrong, and you might gain some sympathy for these guys.

      VJ had some excellent suggestions for meeting men in the target age group (I’m 53, and those are some ideas I wish my BFF and. I had had when we were dating and trying to meet men in a natural and fun way). We did golf in a work. golf league, which was great fun. Try not to put all your eggs in the online basket.

  13. Saywhat! Says:

    For me, I always expect to pay for myself on the first ‘meet’ it’s not really a date because you just don’t know what you’re going to get. Now, if he asks to go out somewhere to eat for a second date then i expect him to pay. I still have a bad habit of offering. Least that’s what my friends tell me, but these days I just don’t feel like dealing with the awkward moments when the check comes, and also because it’s my way of sorta telling them, I am willling to contribute.

    I agree with the OP and I am younger than her. It seems some men just don’t know how to act. I’m not sure if they are overthinking their way out of things but it’s not really my problem. In my opinion, everyone should just do what the want, and NOT overthink it. If you want to pay, pay. If you expect to be paid for and your date insists you pay, then don’t date him again. Keep it simple in your head.

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “It seems some men just don’t know how to act.” Most women too, for that matter. Miss Manners would commit suicide (politely, of course) if she witnessed some of the dates I’ve been on. Etiquette simply isn’t taught anymore, and rudeness has become the norm. As a result, I’ve changed from evaluating someone’s behavior to examining (as best I can) the motivation behind their behavior. There’s a big difference between someone who’s rude because they’re selfish or snobbish and someone who’s rude simply because they don’t know how else to act even around people they like.

  14. Mark Says:

    It really pains me to read this sort of thing. No joke.

    You have been out of it for a while and for reasons that are your own you find yourself in the dating pool.

    Only to find this….

    It’s the sort of thing that makes you just want to say to yourself, I’m goinng home, take a long shower/bath and ask yourself ‘what am I doing wrong?”

    OK. In many ways it’s a different time, and to an extent, different rules (actually different guidelines as there are no real rules). Not totally, but enough to make a difference in how you approach things.

    Haven’t looked at what you wrote on your profile so I can only guess. But it sounds like this guy was pretty much clueless. if you judge by the standing in line bit. Not to mention the ‘complimentary’ tickets.

    In this day and age we pretty much know there is give and take. How buys what , what does a first introduction mean, and that sort of thing. but this one takes it all.


    Perhaps talking with some of your friends as to how to look for someone. Either in real life or on line. If on line maybe have them look over a profile or e-mails that you may get to get their feedback. They may see things that may you don’t.

    Moxie does make some good points. So consider them.

    In any event, don’t be suprised if you find a lot of creeps, loons, and other assorted characters make contact with you. So cultivate a thick skin. Just don’t become too jaded. A jaded person (of any age or station) will turn off any real legitimate candidates.

    Hope things improve.

  15. Selena Says:

    Every time I see this topic on forums those who comment assert they find others who share their preference – whatever their preference happens to be. Those who prefer to split find other splitters; those who prefer the person issuing the invitation pays find those who do. Whatever our filters are – they must be working.

    And Saywhat! is right, if your date insists you pay when it was his invitation and you find it rude, don’t accept another invitation from him. That’s your filter.

  16. Amy Says:

    I almost get the sense that these guys saw the date as beginning once you got your own trays and then sat down. Almost like a school cafeteria or something. I don’t condone it, it’s just the impression I got.

    I also think that older men are a little lost about all this. They have seen A LOT of changes since they were 25 also. So maybe they are uncomfortable and it shows.

    Either way, it is not gracious and makes a poor first impression. I mean, if a person isn’t willing to be considerate to someone s/he doesn’t know yet, why would you think it would improve as time goes on?

    On that note, I remember a coworker who met a guy at a bar and started dating him. Early on, they went skiing for a day. They rented equipment. She said he took her boots and wiped them out because he wanted to be sure they were clean and dry before she put her feet in them. That small act of consideration for her meant so much – they fell in love and ended up getting married. But she always said that the ski-boot moment was a defining one for her.

    It’s a small thing to get a tray and hand it to the woman, or to offer her to go first in line, or to just BUY her coffee or tea. I believe the OP when she says the money wasn’t the issue. It was the thoughtfulness.

    • nathan Says:

      The ski boot example is a hell of lot more memorable and telling than simply paying for a tea or coffee. Thoughtfulness often isn’t about money at all. And when you consider, again, that men paying is still a social expectation for many, it’s not really that special that a guy buys a woman coffee or dinner on a first date. It really isn’t.

      But caring for her boots – that’s awesome. I can see why she remembered it and why it made an impression.

  17. cb Says:

    A first date and a first meet are not at all the same thing. I would not expect a guy to pay if I am meeting him in person for the fiest time after talking online. I find coffee or something simple/inexpensive is preferable for a first meet. Many men do go ahead and pay for my coffee which happens to be a nice gesture.

    On a first date, where you have met previously in person…it is very nice when the man offers to pay. If they don’t I take that as a lack of interest.

    PS: Craigslist? um yeah…that IS your first mistake.

  18. Spinsterlicious Says:

    My first thought when reading this was “of course he(they) should have paid…but you gave me something to think about: maybe the “let’s meet for coffee” really isn’t a date, so buy your own dang coffee and try to get to know each other. I do think he should pay on the first “real” date, though…assuming it happens
    -The Spinsterlicious Life

  19. Beth B Says:

    I KNOW that I’m showing my age when I say this, but really, why bother to leave your house if you’re not interested in putting yourself out AT ALL for the person that you’re meeting–be it bar, coffee shop, or dinner date? Even if these fellows were “only” interested in sex–wouldn’t they want to put forth a more thoughtful and appealing picture to lure their proposed bed-mate into bed with them? I cannot believe that anyone, even the most clueless of clueless, seriously thinks that barging ahead in line, sitting down without waiting for your table-mate when you’re going through line together, and similar shenanigans are A-OK behavior at any time, but most particularly upon first meeting someone, never mind a date! There’s no excuse.

    That said, I also think that we all have our feelers out and defenses up upon first meeting someone–so we must be careful in making hasty and too harsh judgments. Still, a little consideration goes a very long way…I’m impressed that so many have met and dated such thoughtful dating paragons. Hang in there, OP.

  20. Laura Says:

    Maybe it’s just the way it was worded in this post, but I consider it a LOT ruder to stand there gaping at a guy and expecting him to pay. “Like I was supposed to know what to do in this situation.” Well, if I were in that situation, I would do just as I do when out with friends: I’d get what I want, pay for it myself, and sit down. I can only imagine how uncomfortable the poor guy must have felt with you staring him down! He’s not a mind reader…

    If I’m at a regular restaurant/bar/etc for a first date and the check comes, I immediately reach for it (assuming we’re done and it’s not rushing things to do so). I don’t sit there waiting for him to take it – that’s very rude and presumptuous to assume he’ll just pay it. Sometimes after I pick up (physically) the check, the guy says “oh, no, let me.” Sometimes he just reaches for his wallet and puts his card down to split it. Either is just fine. I’ve never met a guy who let me pay the entire bill without a word of protest (though on occasion I’ve insisted), but if I ever did, I’d pay it without comment. Chances are I’ve formed my opinion of him LONG before the bill came, anyway.

    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      Laura, wait. Act like a reasonable and sensible human being? That’s just crazy enough to work…..

  21. dan Says:

    Once again I have been called forth to set you ladies straight and call you out. FIrst, women have an “entitlement issue.” They believe just by showing up they have done their job and now it’s the man’s job to pay and entertain her like a trained monkey. “Make me laugh, monkey!” Essentially, she wants to be Scarlet O’Hara and if you do not measure up to her ridiculous standards or entertain her, she will treat you like Quasimodo and complain to her friends and this blog.

    Again, it’s amazing to me just how women think this way. I blame Cosmo and the Bravo channel.

    Second, I see a problem with some of you ladies equating paying with chilvary. That’s b/s and another case of women wanting to have their cake and eat it too. We live in a modern society. Also, being chivalrous is a WASTE of time. It won’t get you laid so forget about it. I’m not saying to be rude but men should not do this little dance so that women can brag to their friends the next day. Women see chivalry as weakness. i.e. you are a pushover The only truly chivalrous guy I know who ever got laid was Sir Lancelot–and he’s dead.

    Third, the solution is simple. There was this guy who use to post on this blog by the screenname of W07. I recall when he and Moxie had this war of words regarding his alleged “cheapness” due to taking dates to restaurants that would only cost him a nominal amount. In any event, I fell out of my chair laughing at this war of words.

    Regardless, WO7 was on to something. You have to find a middle ground and that is by picking places that are “cheap” but are still nice. Then, instead of spending $100.00 or more on some chick that you will never see again or have sex with, you just spend $50.00 max. I know a few restaurants that fit the bill. Plus, the girl won’t know how much you spent because most don’t bother to see the bill. They just sit there when it comes with this look of entitlement on their face, No women is worth spending a lot on the first date. If that’s an issue then move on.

    Have I spent a lot of cash on a first date? Yes. However, that’s because, on those occasions I wanted to try out a restaurant that just opened. And guess what? I never heard from those chicks again. In closing, I will say that women have themsleves to blame for the “payment” issues. Too many guys have gone on first and subsequent dates with dinner whores and, hence, the reluctance of men to spend money. I know some of you ladies are going to write that’s not you. However, I bet you all have friends or know women that do it and you should chastise because it reflects on your gender. Moxie’s right. Why spend all this money on a women who you are not likely to see again.

    Of course, some of the women on here will blame my choice of women as the problem. Well, that is a weak counterargument and does not address the points I have raised.

    • Saj Says:

      And this is why Dan is single.

      Yelling into the wind that you want women to be attracted to what YOU want them to be attracted to is as pointless as fat women demanding all men be into them because its PC and correct. Learn to start living in reality because bitching about the unfairness of it all wont magically make women change what they are attracted to.

      • Andrew Says:

        Saj, I would prefer that you address Dan’s positions, and not. “And this is why Dan is single” Most of the people on this board are single. Is he now supposed to stoop to your level and retort, : And that’s why you are single too” Well he has not done so!

        Dan is just venting his frustration, and trust me it strikes a chord with all the guys reading his post. It doesn’t mean he plays that out on his dates. We all play the trained monkey game because it’s the expedient thing to do, but we don’t have to like it. Trust me, I will pay for that first date, I will entertain you. If a woman doesn’t show me she is a considerate himan being, then the second date might not be forthcoming. I just prefer women to not bother me with endless emails and calls expecting a second date, after showing me their true colors.

        And as an aside, women put up with guys and their crap too. On dates, most guys talk too much, especially about themselves. Smart women play a little trained monkey game too, politely listening to them and even addressing their nonsense. Women most times will be even polite in the face of rude behavior from men or what they interpret as rude behavior from men. The OP is a good example of this. The unfair thing is that if a woman is not polite in the face of rudeness, she is referred to as the “bitch”.

        Bottom Line: Life is not fair as you say, Saj. One indeed has to work within the constraints of what seems to be acceptable behavior. However boards like these are great venues to vent on the double standards, stupid expectations, and seeming unfairness of things.

        • Saj Says:

          The frustration with Dan is that he isn’t unique in his rants and it’s not a personal attack on Dan so much as the argument I’ve seen time and time again on these dating blogs (rarely in RL funny enough). Every time a who pays post comes up you have a few Dan’s with the this is the 21st century argument and I’m going to rail against human nature until I get what I want. You may as well attack women who like tall guys while defending your right to be attracted to young women with tiny waists. Attack women for liking guys with good jobs while defending your right to be attracted to women who are good cooks.

          It’s similar to the very angry men who complain how women don’t like nice guys and go for jerks instead. Some women are attracted to jerkey guys for stupid reasons and flailing against it is like climbing a snow covered hill in a pair of socks.

          The similarities there is that this chip on the shoulder the Dan’s and their like think they are hiding so well are very very very apparant on their dates. The few guys I knew rl who would go on these harmless rants also just were really unpleasant people and that’s why they weren’t getting the second, third, fourth dates. However it was just easier to blame the mythical dinner whore or how she doesn’t appreciate genuine nice caring guys such as himself. My eyes can only roll so hard when I’ve seen it in person and then when I hear it repeated almost verbattom on a dating blog it makes my teeth grind as well.

          • dan Says:

            Your analysis and its conclusions are unfounded. Plus, you are comparing apples to oranges. What you fail and refuse to consider is that, even if my arguments are repetitive, they are supported and anchored by facts. You just happen to not like them which,a gain, is an entitlement issue. Also, I don’t see how you can indict me or presume to know my dating life without knowing me personally. Maybe it’s you that has issues with people disagreeing with you..

            Personally, I don’t know you or would presume to know why you are single. I have no idea what you have experienced or who you date. I could sit here and claim you are single because the only viewpoint or opinion you value is your own. Is that valid? Of course not.

            If you don’t like reading or listening to opposing points of views that do not conform to your closely held opinions or make your eyes roll then don’t read or visit this blog anymore. Further, if you find some of the postings on here are repetitive and which, further, frustrate your sensibilities, again, don’t visit this blog. Problem solved.

            • A Says:

              Please stop all of this nonsense. You can just as easily STFU and move on if you don’t like what you’re reading, right? Moxie should just close comments or ban and delete commenters if they can’t abide by her rules. Just stop.

            • dan Says:

              For a model response, Saj, I suggest you read Selena’s post below in response to my points. You may learn something.

          • nathan Says:

            First off, I will say that I don’t agree with a lot of what Dan said, and don’t agree with the universal blaming of women in his post at all.

            However, this Saj:

            “Every time a who pays post comes up you have a few Dan’s with the this is the 21st century argument and I’m going to rail against human nature until I get what I want.”

            suggests that those who disagree with the issues being discussed are trying to go against something that is inborn or natural. And that’s hogwash. Much of what’s being discussed on this post, and many others for that matter, are contentions around socialization. Things and ideas that were learned and reinforced by peer groups, family or origin, schools, other social groups, the media, and other elements of culture. Dating in 2011 looks nothing like dating did in 1911, precisely because as the culture around us changes, so does dating and relationships. And part of Dan’s post is pointing to that sense of change, however muddled it is by his frustration with, and blame of women.

            What’ disappointing to me is that the OP comes on here speaking about what I see as genuine confusion about how things have changed, and yet when given responses as to what’s actually happening out there that she doesn’t like, chooses to leap to “you guys cheap and rude” kind of conclusions. And some of the other women on here do the same. It’s really no better than the “dinner whore” comments made by Dan, and echoed by other guys on other threads here.

    • Selena Says:

      I’ll address some of the points you raised Dan.

      1. Etiquette evolved from the idea that if a person wanted to go somewhere, and not alone, they would ask someone to accompany them. Since they were the person desiring company, they would pay the other person’s way. A form of “Thank you for joining me.” You understood this when you invited women to join you at restaurants you wanted to try.

      2. Have you ever found you weren’t too interested in a woman after one or two dates? Women find this happens to them as well. They go out with a guy 1,2,3 times to determine if a connection might develop – sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t – sometimes it does for them, but not for him. How are they to know before ever spending time with him what will happen? Accepting dates with someone they might be interested in does not make them “dinner whores”.

      3. Why spend alot of money on strangers? Especially since there’s an even shot they won’t be interested in you ( or you them) after 1,2,3 dates? Keep it simple. Keep it light. Keep it fun. Save the pricey outing for later when you are actually ” a couple”. Unless it’s something you want to do, but not by yourself. Then see #1 above.

      • Andrew Says:

        In my younger days I have had women do more than three such dates. I have had them telling me where they want to dine and expecting me to pay for it. I absolutely love your point number 1.

        What has evolved out of this, is particularly bad behavior by women, a sense of entitlement as Dan addresses above. Where did we go from a man inviting someone to join him at a place he wanted to try. to a woman saying “I wanna try that other restaurant” and expecting the guy to pay it all.

        What has also changed is that women did not make much money back then, but make more equitable money now. So if a guy invites a woman to join him the first time and he pays, why won’t a woman even offer to cover the tip the second or third time. The way I see it. Being considerate means a woman should offer to cover the tip the second time and even help out with paying the third time. My experience has not been that, so there is a sense of entitlement out there.

        • Selena Says:


          If a man asks a woman to join him at a particular venue, it’s up to her to accept or decline. To try to “upgrade” his choice while still expecting him to pay for it shows a distinct lack of manners. If a woman wants company to go to a particular restaurant, or event, then she should be prepared to pay her date’s way as well. Standard etiquette does not apply to just men.

          And their is also such a thing as reciprocity. If someone takes you out and “treats” a couple times, then manners dictate you show appreciation by reciprocating in some way. Paying for part of the date, treating them to something, or hosting them at your home. Splitting checks is not the only way to show interest and appreciation, though it seems the method some men prefer.

          But that’s what getting to know each other is all about anyway: determining if you share similar values.

          • Andrew Says:

            Selena, I wholeheartedly agree. However that is not my experience from the women I have dated. It’s the genuine offer that counts. Upon getting the offer, I will often say, I’ve got you, maybe next time you can treat me to a place that’s your favorite.

          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            “Splitting checks is not the only way to show interest and appreciation, though it seems the method some men prefer.” It’s the simplest way, at least. I agree with your point about reciprocity, but it is the guest’s option whether to repay an invitation in cash (by splitting the check) or in kind (by taking the other person out in turn). I’m not at all concerned about which she chooses; what I care about is that she shows appreciation rather than entitlement.

            Given all the complexities, subtexts and potential miscommunications in modern dating, the best compromise seems to be offering to split the check if she doesn’t want another date or offering to plan and pay for the next date if she does.

    • Paula Says:

      >>>They believe just by showing up they have done their job and now it’s the man’s job to pay and entertain her like a trained monkey. “Make me laugh, monkey!” Essentially, she wants to be Scarlet O’Hara and if you do not measure up to her ridiculous standards or entertain her, she will treat you like Quasimodo and complain to her friends and this blog.

      Forget the payment issue (PLEASE!) — isn’t that true of both genders? If either of you just show up and want the other person to entertain you without doing any work yourself, you can pretty much bet there’s not going to be a second date.

      I don’t think that’s unique to women — I’ve had several dates with guys who just sit there, especially if there’s no attraction, and don’t make any effort at all to get through the date without it being awkward and uncomfortable. I tell people that I can talk to anyone about any subject, but there are a few guys who have really tested that assertion, especially when I’m made to feel that it’s my fault that they’re not attracted to me instead of just the way things go sometimes.

    • Kurt Says:

      Dan raises a good point. If it is a first date or a second date, the OP is not in a relationship with the man, so why should he spend a lot of money? Actually some women think that a man who pays for a nice date early on is a chump or that he is trying to hard to impress her. Also, if a lot of women who aren’t sure of how much they like a particular man will assume that they already have the guy in the bag if he pays for a decent date and that somehow makes the man less attractive. – Don’t ask me to explain this point as it is highly illogical, but I think that there is a lot of merit to it.

  22. dimplz Says:

    Maybe all of those people who feel compelled to unload all of their crap should refrain from doing so and address the OP. Since when did this blog become group therapy?

    • Andrew Says:

      We all use it as group therapy, and anyone who says otherwise is disingenious. And what Dan was saying was not crap.

      • dimplz Says:

        I don’t. I like to read other people’s opinions and takes on the OP’s story. That’s the whole reason why Moxie has open comments. It’s not for people to go off on rants and tangents about their own lives. It is very possible to speak from personal experience without having to go into detail about said personal experience, and I didn’t name names. You did.

      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        Yeah, speak for yourself. Things about to get all ad hominem up in here

    • Paula Says:

      The reason it keeps getting considered “group therapy” is that some people insist on practicing psychology without a license and when they are no longer able to debate the commenter’s position, feel inclined to psychoanalyze them personally, going back weeks/months/years to use something they said as evidence why they’re a broken person, unfit to comment on anyone’s dating situation.

      It may be possible to speak about one’s position without providing information about one’s own experience, but when someone has actually encountered a situation and talks about how they handled it, that’s not therapy, but is much more persuasive to me than someone’s opinion about how someone should proceed unsupported by any real-life experience.

        • Paula Says:

          You know, those posts which “indict [you] or presume to know [your] dating life without knowing me personally.” Instead of debating your position like Selena’s example…

      • dimplz Says:

        I have encountered a lot of what Moxie addresses, and I manage to keep my anecdotes out of it. I have seen many comments lately unfold like a five paragraph essay. It makes it very difficult for the person writing in to sift through all of the comments and find out where the advice for the OP is.

        • Paula Says:

          Keeping your anecdotes out is your choice, Dimplz. Just as some of us choose to include them. OPs aren’t the only people who benefit from the discussion here, as many of us have learned important lessons and/or have avoided dating disasters without ever being or only rarely being an OP.

          • dimplz Says:

            Then you’re making the posts about you. You can take away the advice from the other commenters without having to talk about yourself. When you do that, it shifts the focus, like we are doing right now.

            You can always write in and get other people’s opinions if you’re seeking advice…

            • dan Says:

              Dimp why don’t you stop lurking around this blog if the posts irritate you. Otherwise, stop pontificating and contribute. Your posts really do not contribute to anything other than an attempt to showcase yourself.

              • dimplz Says:

                1- It’s not your blog, so you don’t get to decide who comments.

                2- I’m not the only person irritated by the oversharing.

                3- You don’t like my posts? Then thumb down. I don’t care.

                • dan Says:

                  Ok, Dimp you can take your ball home.

                  Dimp I would not even call your comments posts. Rather, they are the product of am individual easily irritated and prone to temper tantrums.

                  • Angeline Says:

                    Pot, meet kettle.

                  • Angeline Says:

                    And I personally think you have a valid point that there are too many entitled women who want the perks of the man paying, but who get pissy at the guy who holds the door for her, or get huffy about the idea that the man isn’t there to perform like a circus tiger for Princess. But you manage to make it about all women (with the occasional nod to reason by shifting to “most” women) andcome across so angry about it, your valid point is lost in the shitstorm.

            • Paula Says:

              I don’t ask for advice when sharing personal anecdotes — if I wanted advice, I’d be an OP. When Moxie established Coffee Talk, I specifically asked that posts there seeking advice not be made part of the regular blog. She has apparently chosen to discontinue that, but it doesn’t mean I’m going to be making Coffee Talk-like posts in regular comments (except to occasionally wonder about chuckrock’s sex life).

              My personal anecdotes are either responding to the OP or a commenter’s position advising the OP which is different than mine. We all drift from time to time, but just because a post has a personal anecdote doesn’t make it about that person any more than expressing an opinion without one makes it superior to ungrounded pontification.

              Besides, you share them too: I know that your unwillingness to have sex before marriage is grounded in your religious views and that you won’t allow your boyfriend to even sleep over, which you have talked about several times when advising OPs about when to have sex. That allows all of us to better assess the validity of your advice, which given the level of anonymity we have otherwise, isn’t a bad thing.

              • Dimplz Says:

                Wow, what you know about me fits on a square of toilet paper. My point is that while the conversation can take a turn, it can always be reverted to the topic at hand. I may share that to explain to the OP from my pov. Its not meant to solicit advice from others.

                • Paula Says:

                  I might get two squares if I think really hard, but I’m not keeping a database of everything you’ve said so I can use it again.

                  >>>>I may share that to explain to the OP from my pov. Its not meant to solicit advice from others.

                  Exactly. Which is why I share what I share and you call “making it all about me.” This “group therapy” thing sounds suspiciously like shorthand for anyone’s perspective that you don’t want to hear about. And the frequent “narcissism” rant is an effort to pathologize a way of sharing that may be different from your own, but no less valid.

  23. Suggestionator Says:

    I have to say those guys were cheap but I wouldn’t be too quick to jump to the conclusion that because they are younger they aren’t willing to pay or are rude. Coffee dates to me signal friend zone or friends w/benefits zone. Plus as some other people have posted that coffee dates are a good way to leave early if you’re not feeling it. If they are truly pursuing a long term relationship then they would be willing to pay for you.

    • Trouble Says:

      I am perfectly happy to pay, last night I treated my good friends to dinner. Why would I care who picks up the check? I am not looking for a man as a paycheck or a provider, so who pays is irrelevant to me.

      The emotion you people put into this stuff, and the judging that other women do on this subject is patently ridiculous to me. Who cares who pays?

      No wonder some of you are still single. What a stupid way to evaluate someone else’s character.

      My boyfriend and I split our first date (for lunch) and we’ve been splitting costs ever since. Works fine for us.

  24. Mike Felber Says:

    Amen Trouble. And Crotch Rocket is right too “Given all the complexities, subtexts and potential miscommunications in modern dating, the best compromise seems to be offering to split the check if she doesn’t want another date or offering to plan and pay for the next date if she does”

    For a 1st date, though men do have more burden since woman rely on men to do the vast majority of the asking ( a huge mistake, talk to & select men for yourself too), . .If you ask, it is nice to pay. All the more reason why nobody should look askance at a coffee of drinks date. But it is clear that we should assume nothing facile about motivation with widely varying mores & expectations. nobody should resent paying for themselves with the occasional exception of, say, an obviously well off person asking someone of lower means to a relatively expensive place. Then they should pay.

    We should also read nothing in to arriving early, ordering a drink-there are many causes, does not show rudeness or lack of regard. Too much negative judgement is levied. Yes, look at how kind, attentive, & engaging the person attempts to be. Then consider your potential attraction. Do not make what you “get” the priority. This goes for both sexes.

© 2013-2018 And That's Why You're Single All Rights Reserved