Why Aren’t Men As Obsessed With Dating As Women Are?

Name: Bree
State: DC
Age: 34
Comment: Moxie,
Why has there been such a inundation of questions, concerns, and comments all regarding men that revolve around how they think, what they want, don’t want, how to get and keep a man etc etc etc….?
Lately I’ve been wondering do men have all these discussions revolving around women? jmo- but I have yet to see numerous blogs, public forums, articles, and discussions from men about how to keep women and what women want and how women think? Not saying there aren’t any, but not nearly as many articles and discussions on men trying to get and keep women. I think this is one of the reasons why women have so many issues with men and find it so hard to get and keep a man. We put waaaaay too much thought and effort into it instead of just being ourselves and letting a man come to us who appreciates and respects and wants us for who we are, just as we are. I have been watching the Tough Love show lately with the host (a guy) trying to teach women how to get and keep a man. I have never seen a show where a female host taught men how to get, keep and please women. I think that we as women give men too much power and too much of the upper hand. Men know they are a hot commodity nowadays and in high demand and they act on that accordingly. They know the playing field is not level and they can “have it their way” most of the time with many women. I think part of this is women’s fault for putting so much time and effort and discussion into figuring out men’s minds and how to please them and keep them. We have forgotten about us and the discussions about our wants and needs because sometimes we get “a good man” and we’re still not happy and satisfied with him because our needs, wants, and desires as women are not being met consistently. What is your opinion on this new trend of the barrage of discussions and blogs that seem to revolve around what men like, want, need and how to get them, satisfy them, and keep them?

 

I have never seen a show where a female host taught men how to get, keep and please women.

That’s because, I think, men see the spectacularly bad advice women give to each other and have no interest in being tutored by a female. They want to hear it from a man, and those shows and websites absolutely exist. (As a side note, I actually like Steve Ward and think he gives some great advice. ) As someone said recently, women are kind of screwed in that we don’t really get the advice we need. We get the advice we want. Our female friends are either handling us with kid gloves because they fear the loss of a friendship OR they’re sabotaging us on either a conscious or unconscious level.

We have forgotten about us and the discussions about our wants and needs because sometimes we get “a good man” and we’re still not happy and satisfied with him because our needs, wants, and desires as women are not being met consistently.

And that right there is the answer to your question, Bree.  All of these forums and blogs and whatnot where women gather to to discuss men is just an online version of what we do with friends. We’re not really looking for answers when we poll our friends on what to do. We’re just looking to complain and vent and be told what we want to hear. These forums encourage and fuel our self-obsession. That’s what social media in general has done…made us all famous. Now it’s all “Look at ME!”

I strongly disagree that we’ve forgotten about us. If anything, it’s just the opposite. We’re so consumed with ourselves that we don’t have the mental bandwith needed to consider men. We say that’s what we’re doing and we say that’s what we want. But is it? Because somewhere along the way these sites went from being about distributing information and building a community to just bitching and mocking the opposite sex. It’s just a bunch of white noise disguised as introspection. The women who really do want insight and want to change are usually lost amongst the masses or being misguided.

Why do blogs exist? Many exist to blame men as the reason why those particular women are single. Forget the fact that they’ve gone on so many dates that they’ve lost count and nothing has materialized. It’s not them. It’s the guys. They’re wishy washy, creepy, lazy, sex addicts only after one thing, ruled by their hormones who all want to bang 20 year olds. Like Angeline said in a recent comment, putting men on a public spit and roasting them is a great way to distract people from the real issue – THEM.

These writers will lay out their list of standards and tell men they have to “man-up”…and then, by the end of date one or two, just because the man asked them out via phone instead of text, she’ll be in his bed. (That just happened to my friend M. with a woman he met on OKCupid. Found her blog, read it, went out with her and she was in his bed by date 2. So much for all those standards and rules, huh?) But if she does that, she’s empowered. In fact, if she expresses any fondness for sex she either endlessly defends her right to it or she’s heralded as a sexually empowered woman. But if a man does that? Why, he’s a creep or a dog or a player. If she pursues casual sex and is rejected, the man is said to be threatened by her overt sexuality. It’s never, “Uh, maybe he thought you were a creeper. Or crazy. Or pushy.” It’s

Then there’s the endless barrage of essays from women promoting the upside of singledom and how being single is the single most singley thing a single can do. How is this supposed to convince men we are emotionally available and want a relationship? And then the next story is about her 545th online date gone wrong or bad attempt at a booty call.

That’s the disconnect. The inconsistency and frequency of all the messages out there.

Men know they are a hot commodity nowadays and in high demand and they act on that accordingly. They know the playing field is not level and they can “have it their way” most of the time with many women. I think part of this is women’s fault for putting so much time and effort and discussion into figuring out men’s minds and how to please them and keep them.

Exactly! By being so vocal about how we’re fed up with men and not going to take it anymore, all we’re really doing is letting men know that we have fallen for their tricks before and quite possibly will again. When women broadcast their frustrations by getting all “I am woman hear me roar” they’re letting men know that they are vulnerable. Basically, we’re handing off our playbook to the other team by being so public about all of it.  Why should men up their game, so to speak, when they know there are so many women out there with flimsy standards?  Even the good guys will take an opening should they see it. We make ourselves ripe for the picking. The chickens are coming home to roost, y’all. And it ain’t gonna be pretty.

There are a few forums out there where men gather to discuss women. But it’s not in the “Omigod, do you think she likes me?” vein. It’s more, “Women did this to themselves” type stuff. (Hint: We kinda did.) And no, those sites aren’t the PUA stories that we’re familiar with. These are stable, functional, able men who are now reaping the benefits of all this inconsistency and inter-gender competition. Or they are a collection of guys who, like women, have decided to forgo women all together because they don’t feel any of it is worth it. (Do yourself a favor, people, and read this site. And this one. )

I get why publicly complaining about men is so popular. Obviously. But now all that stuff is just so pervasive and overwhelming. Twitter, Blogs, Facebook…..it’s everywhere. You can’t avoid it. It just feels like too much. It’s oppressive and suffocating.  It’s not encouraging growth or accountability. If anything it’s stunting us.

The only way to change this is to stop airing our dirty laundry and to stop indulging this negativity and start being more honest with ourselves that we are a part of the problem. We have contributed to the passivity of men by both publicly beating them down and not constructing and honoring our own personal codes of behavior.

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54 Responses to “Why Aren’t Men As Obsessed With Dating As Women Are?”

  1. Karen Says:

    Women are way to invested in this dating & relationship thing. no sense in bashing men but at some point only give what you are getting. If its not mutual. Walk.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7

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    • Andrew Says:

      Men think about dating just as much. Men are however socially trained to not whine and complain, but to actually do something. There is a proliferation of PUA stuff out there, and this represents a good example of that attitude. Also, because men face rejection directly, many men have adopted a more realistic approach to their options. Liking who likes you, is always a good place to go. Sometimes one has to pick the best of the persons attracted to us than sit there obsessing about how we can attract that guy or girl who is ambivalent about us.

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  2. Crotch Rocket Says:

    “I have yet to see numerous blogs, public forums, articles, and discussions from men about how to keep women and what women want and how women think?” That’s because, for the most part, we know what you want and how to keep you. We’re mystified about how you think, but we don’t particularly care; we’ve accepted we’ll never understand and moved on.

    “We put waaaaay too much thought and effort into it instead of just being ourselves and letting a man come to us who appreciates and respects and wants us for who we are, just as we are.” There’s just one teensy problem with that: what if there aren’t any men who appreciate, respect and want you for who you are? Or what if there are a few that might but they never meet you? Or what if they meet you but you reject them? Sounds like a great plan!

    “I have never seen a show where a female host taught men how to get, keep and please women.” That’s mostly because those aren’t our goals. We don’t want to become women. That’s your job, not ours. If we want to learn how to do our job better, we’ll ask another guy. The other reason is because the vast majority of advice coming from women, directed at either sex, is a giant, steaming pile of crap. Y’all are great for sympathy but horrible at solving problems. (Just like we’re great at solving problems but horrible at sympathy.)

    “They know the playing field is not level” Yep. Under 30, the field is tilted sharply in favor of women; after 30, it tilts in favor of men. It’s not our fault that you didn’t take advantage when you had the chance; we’re smart enough to learn from your mistakes.

    “we get ‘a good man’ and we’re still not happy and satisfied with him” When has any woman ever been satisfied with a man as he is? Aside: if you’re not happy or satisfied, why are you considering him a “good man” in the first place?

    “because our needs, wants, and desires as women are not being met consistently.” That’s because you consistently settle for “good men” that don’t give a shit about meeting your needs, wants and desires–if you even know what they are. Heck, the guy may even tell you that, yet you hang on anyway, futilely hoping to change his mind. And, when you finally give up, you’re that much older and face that much more of an uphill battle to attract other men.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      There’s a whole subsection of male dating advice givers that are nothing but attention seeking panderers. They present themselves as that mysterious unicorn of a man who indulges the insecurities of self-absorbed, insecure and delusional women. Their goal isn’t to help women at all. They just don’t get any attention from women in real life so they create a blog where they put down other men in order to elevate themselves. They play in to the mistake that many women make where they equate how much a man says with how interested he is. More words = more time = more interested.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

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      • Andrew Says:

        I don’t completely agree. The same could be very easily said about people like yourself with the advice you give to women. I actually think what you say, makes a difference with the way women approach dating. I may not agree with some of it, but it’s power lies in the demand for women to change their paradigm. The big problem is that people seek easy answers when effective solutions lie in being balanced. Confident, yet warm and charming. Proactive, yet laid back enough to not overly internalize poor outcomes. Hopeful, yet realistic.

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    • Karen Says:

      exactly CR. Although I got thumbs down for saying that women invest way too much. Women start obsessing over a guy or the relationship out of the gate. Women obsess, invest so much mental effort & emotional energy even if the guy isnt even right. Men dont obsess like that. In the past when I was younger, that was me. I would be willing to work so much harder, offer so much – Now as I’m older…take me as I am and engage in wanting a relationship with me. If not then it is what it is.

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    • Breebree Says:

      To reply to Crotch Rocket in every case when a womans needs aren’t being met it isn’t always that the man doesn’t give a shit about their needs….I know many a married woman who has lots of complaints about things her husband doesn’t do that she wishes he did and things she wants that he doesn’t give.
      I think it’s sometimes that women can be very particular in what they want and how they want it.
      For example in the movie “Date Nite” when Tina Fey and Steve Carell are in the car discussing their marriage and she is complaining about always having to do everything with the kids and house and he explains to her well you never trust me to let me help you with anything because you automatically assume I will screw it up. Many married couples have this problem. It’s not so much about the man not being a “good man” or the woman not being a “good woman” just miscommunication and lack of complete trust and faith in your partner.
      And a man can be a great guy but bottom line is men are men. Many men aren’t interested in shopping or watching Sex In The City and aren’t interested in anything when a game is on and their fav team is playing. Just because a man is not being “everything” to a woman that she wants and needs all the time doesn’t mean he is a good man. Some women want to talk and discuss their feelings most of the time they spend with you, some women want and expect flowers all the time and some women expect to be spoiled and catered to all the time….not every man is like that and does that…doesn’t mean he doesn’t care about the womans needs, just may mean thats not his thing and not his style. Women have to accept men as they are.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “in every case when a womans needs aren’t being met it isn’t always that the man doesn’t give a shit about their needs.” Yes, actually, it is. If he wants to keep her around, he’ll meet her needs. If he doesn’t, he won’t. Unfortunately, many women don’t seem to be smart enough to realize this and stick around anyway, pretending they’re in a relationship.

        “I know many a married woman who has lots of complaints about things her husband doesn’t do that she wishes he did and things she wants that he doesn’t give.” Wishes and wants are a different matter, though most women seem to have trouble understanding that.

        “It’s not so much about the man not being a “good man” or the woman not being a “good woman” just miscommunication and lack of complete trust and faith in your partner.” Yes, communication problems are rampant in our culture since men and women are socialized to communicate differently. However, if you don’t trust your partner even though they’re a “good” person, what does that say about you? How is that their fault? Why are you even with someone you don’t trust in the first place?

        “And a man can be a great guy but bottom line is men are men.” At least we can agree on that much.

        “Many men aren’t interested in shopping or watching Sex In The City and aren’t interested in anything when a game is on and their fav team is playing.” So? There are lots of things I’m not interested in that I’ll do for my partner’s sake–and I expect the same from her. That’s called compromise. OTOH, I avoid asking unless it’s not important to me–and I expect the same from her. That’s called respect.

        “Just because a man is not being “everything” to a woman that she wants and needs all the time doesn’t mean he is a good man.” [ITYM “isn’t a good man.”] Please define what you think a “good man” is, then. The working definition I have, based on reading comments here, is a man who can read a woman’s mind and does everything she wants, her way, without complaint.

        “Women have to accept men as they are.” Wow, another thing we can agree on! One of the main problems women have is thinking they can change men. We’re not fixer-uppers. In the vast majority of cases, it’s the woman that changes while the man stays the same.

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        • Bree Says:

          Yes Crotch Rocket I meant “isn’t a good man”
          I think a good man consistentlygives a woman what she needs….not necessarily what she wants all the time and everything he does for her is done out of love and with her best interest at heart.
          The problem is with women sometimes wants and needs are 2 different things.
          Some women want a man to go shopping with them all the time. She doesn’t need this she just wants it. Does this mean her man/husband isn’t a good man if he doesn’t go shopping with her all the time? If a man isn’t the least bit interested in Lifetime and/or chick flicks does and has no desire to watch them with his lady or wife does that mean he isn’t a good man?
          Now this man may cook, clean, and take care of her when she is sick, get up extra early to take her to work in the morning but he doesn’t like to go shopping and doesn’t like chick flicks……so does the cooking, cleaning, and care-taking mean nothing? I think not.
          And from what many of my guy friends have told me, including some who are married they do compromise sometimes just not all the time. But when they ask the woman to compromise it’s a fight or flat out refusal? The woman can refuse to do things the man may want to do and share in his interest but wants him to be all about her. How is that right?
          Also what about all the married women who complain that their husbands are no longer romantic and taking them out all the time and buying flowers all the time for them. Do you believe that those men didn’t, don’t or no longer love their wives? I don’t think thats the case.
          I believe that men are more practical than women and may simply not do things once they see it’s no longer a necessity. This is something that many women take very personal about how differently they are treated by a man after they are with him for several years. But men have told me that it has nothing to do with a lack of love for their s/o or spouse, it’s simply not necessary once they “have the woman” and once they are married or have been in a long-term relationship for many years and share a home and bills together it’s simply not practical or feasible for them to spend money on flowers all the time, gifts and always going out to dinner and movies and shows and what not.
          Cause remember Crotch Rocket what you start off doing with most women they will typically want it done all the time. Consistency is the key word with women. If you started buying her flowers and a card and a gift on Valentines Day when you started dating her then she will want that even after 10 years of marriage; just like a man will continue to want sex on a regular basis.

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        • Bree Says:

          As for my definition of a “good man”. To me it’s about someone who is kind, decent, honorable, honest, mature, considerate, sweet, loving, has good manners, spiritual, and God-Fearing.
          If a man has those qualities typically he will be a good man and treat everyone fair, just, and right, especially the woman in his life.
          I prefer a man who will take care of me when I’m sick, get up extra early to take me to work when I don’t feel like driving, cook, and clean sometimes, rub my feet when they hurt, someone who is considerate of my feelings, and listens when I talk to him and isn’t judgemental, someone who can look at me and know I need a hug and a kiss at that moment more than anything else. Someone who I can call anytime day or nite and talk to or if I need him to come to me he will come. As opposed to someone who will buy me expensive things, and take me on trips, and buy me flowers all the time and wine and dine me all the time and treat me like he can put a “price tag” on my love and affection and think whenever he isn’t there for me when I need him and when it counts.
          Unlike many women I’m a more practical person. So to have someone who is there for me and will sacrifice their time for me and never ask for anything in return is priceless and more important than forcing his interest in things he’s truly not interested in just to have my way.

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  3. nathan Says:

    I agree with a fair amount of what Moxie says here. In fact, I started my own blog in order to be a man who actually talks about dating and relationships in a different manner than the PUA sites, for example. I want to encourage introspection and good attention skills, because both are sorely lacking amongst both women and men in the dating scene.

    Here are a few additional thoughts.

    1. I think a lot people in general struggle to truly be ok with being single and also, at the same time, be open to a new relationship. Either you’re a closed down and bitter single person, or you’re always in hot pursuit of a date. Neither positions that, in my view, are healthy or happy.

    2. There’s a lot of confirmation bias activity on dating blogs and forums. Many of these generalizations about the opposite sex begin with a single experience or set of personal experiences. From there, you’re hoping online to look for anyone who has had similar experiences, so that you can confirm that indeed, men are pigs or women are sluts or whatever. Anyone who challenges your assumption or who offers a story that runs counter to it is either dismissed or fiercely debated. This is the pattern of confirmation bias, and some of the dating blogs online are simply an ongoing exercise in affirming people’s currently held beliefs, even if they have almost zero validity in the everyday world.

    3. I actually don’t agree with the OP’s assessment that men can “have it their way most of the time with many women.” I’d argue that it’s often more of a stalemate situation. Men sometimes fail to read the signs and make the wrong choice. Or a man fails to tick off item number 12 on the 15 point list a woman has, so she decides to distance herself and question his worth. Or one person wants one kind of relationship, while the other wants something else, and neither is able to express that clearly.
    Perhaps more men are “having it their way” amongst the causal sex crowd, but I’m in that group, and so my comments aren’t coming from that place.

    4. Too many people are more invested in having “options” than investing the time and energy in dating someone and finding out if they are a good match or not. And many of the same people who won’t invest that time and energy expect the kind of relationship markers that come with a long term, committed relationship.

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    • nathan Says:

      “Perhaps more men are “having it their way” amongst the causal sex crowd, but I’m in that group, and so my comments aren’t coming from that place.” This should read “I’m not in that group.”

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      • Breebree Says:

        Nathan I see your point…and yes more men who are “players” are the ones who have it their way. The mature men who seriously want a relationship unfortunately have a harder time. And not necessarily because of looks or materialistic things but because they don’t have the charm and charisma of players.

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  4. Trouble Says:

    The PIck-Up Artist
    Queer Eye for the Straight Guy
    Beauty and the Geek

    All shows designed to teach men without dating skills how to get and keep women. The entire PUA scene is about teaching men how to land women. There are plenty of men who are clueless and inept about dating, that’s where “Game” strategy evolved.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “All shows designed to teach men without dating skills how to get and keep women.” No, they’re not. They are about how to attract superficial women via superficial improvements in a man’s appearance or behavior, which is useful for dating, i.e. getting laid, but not genuine relationships.

      For men, though, staying in a relationship is as easy as falling off a greased fencepost during an earthquake. Our problems are how to find a woman worth keeping and how to get rid of the ones who aren’t worth keeping with a minimum of drama. And nobody talks about either of those things. Getting laid in the meantime used to be a problem, but the feminists solved that for us. Thanks!

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      • Andrew Says:

        Definitely PUA stuff works well on superficial women. Unfortunately, some of it works on substantial women too because they are inexperienced in the game as you would say, through them spending so much time on professional life. Fact of life is that women like confidence in a man. And that’s not changing. Especially that quiet calm confidence. Good example. I know many African American women who don’t date white guys but absolutely adore Clint Eastwood.

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      • Breebree Says:

        “Our problems are how to find a woman worth keeping and how to get rid of the ones who aren’t worth keeping with a minimum of drama. And nobody talks about either of those things.”
        Now Crotch Rocket that I wholeheartedly cosign on. Those are the issues most men have….Not how to get and keep a woman……vastly different from the issues women have and the questions they pose. Or men in real serious committed relationships or married men may have sex related questions.

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    • Craig Says:

      Those shows aren’t about how to get and keep women – they’re about how to clean up one’s appearance and develop some game so a dateless wonder can get laid. As Crotch Rocket correctly surmised, they teach a guy to tap into the superficiality of some women and attract them with nice clothes and nice lines. There’s nothing in those shows that will lead a man to a long-term relationship with a quality woman.

      Men don’t seek advice on how to keep women, what women want, and how women think because these things don’t really occupy our minds much. We’re just not that deep. We’re more inclined to seek advice on to how to be able to watch football on Sundays in peace instead of being forced to go apple picking with the Mrs.

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      • Trouble Says:

        Men don’t seek advice on how to keep women, what women want, and how women think because these things don’t really occupy our minds much. We’re just not that deep. We’re more inclined to seek advice on to how to be able to watch football on Sundays in peace instead of being forced to go apple picking with the Mrs.

        As Crotch adeptly pointed out, this is more a matter of picking the right Mrs. than anything else.

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  5. M Says:

    I dont think men are “in demand” or have been at any point in my lifetime. With all the talk of female empowerment, forgoing relationships in favor of career success and how great it is to be single, women have more reason than ever to forgo dating. This drives the demand for men down. Meanwhile, the demand for women remains the same. I think the difference is that some men, generally the kind only looking for one thing, are sometimes willing to lower their standards close to the point of accepting anyone. Yeah, if you drop all standards, you can “have it your way” with one member of the opposite sex. Women I dont believe do this under any circumstances, really.

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  6. Christina Says:

    Women like to talk about stuff, especially relationships. It’s not surprising that most self-help consumers are women. I don’t want to stereotype- being a woman myself- but we do seem to enjoy the discussion and the complaining more than we value solving an actual problem ( I hate that! I love solving problems).

    Men are clearly more results-oriented, and that’s probably why there’s such a wealth of PUA-type sites, books, etc.

    In the end, both are a waste of time if you don’t have your shit together as a mature adult. You can read all the advice in the world about dealing with the opposite sex, but it won’t do a bit of good if you don’t know who you are and where you’re going.

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  7. Kurt Says:

    “Men know they are a hot commodity nowadays and in high demand and they act on that accordingly. They know the playing field is not level and they can “have it their way” most of the time with many women.”

    If Bree really thinks that all of these guys are having it “their way” with many women, then Bree is almost certainly going only for men out of her league. She might want to take a look at Moxie’s other post about dating leagues. If a man really thinks a woman is a catch, he would be far less inclined to want to play the field.

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    • Breebree Says:

      Kurt I beg to differ about so called “leagues”. Who is defining these “leagues”? Typically it’s society. I think people fall in love with who they fall in love with for various reasons. Many times people don’t date someone who “society” thinks is good for them and they don’t fall in love with the person “society” would match them with because they are with that person fro their own personal reasons.
      I don’t buy into that whole thing about “leagues” at all. I think it limits people and decreases their options. Who are you to tell someone who they should and shouldn’t be dating based on superficial things ie looks, money, status etc etc etc….
      And Kurt the only time a man doesn’t have it his way with women is when he is truly in love with one woman and/or if he is a mature man and not a boy.
      I know plenty of men who are not the most attractive men and not wealthy at all. I know men who are unemployed and can still be players and play games on women…and the women they play games with aren’t necessarily ugly or broke either. It’s all about a persons mentality and maturity level.
      The reason why I think many men think they are in high demand and their actions back this up is because quite frankly they are. Almost every woman wants to be married and have a family at some point in her life. Granted many younger women under 25 aren’t that pressed to get married and have babies (but some are) but as a woman gets older she will want somebody and nobody wants to grow old alone. We all want to have someone by our side to go through life with. More women than men are marriage minded and typically more women than men press the issue of committment and marriage, and women are more likely to pressure a man to commit and get married.
      Not only that less women cheat than men (not saying women don’t cheat but they don’t cheat as often as men do). Hence my opinion why I think so many women obsess over how to “catch and keep a man”.

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      • Angeline Says:

        You can believe that the earth is flat, too. Doesn’t change the facts. Society doesn’t determine and set leagues. There isn’t a big ledger somewhere with everyone’s league listed. The limits you’re talking about are set with every date you get or don’t get. Who decides each person’s league is the people who date or will not date that person. That is the only assessment that matters. What friends, mothers, self-help books and romantic comedies say is perhaps soothing to a bruised ego, but will carry no more weight or have any more effect on making the other gender want that person than a feather in a tornado.

        And the fact that people choose partners that are bad for them just proves that people can make stupid decisions, whatever their league. Also, though rare, people can have it in their heads that their league is *lower* than it really is.

        People are superficial when it comes to who we’d like to be with. We can pretty it up and calll it preference or biology, but we all have biases and appearance requirements.

        You have a league, Bree, and the sooner you stop telling yourself you don’t, the sooner you can use that knowledge to improve your prospects instead of spinning your wheels. Well-meaning but wrong advice to the contrary just slows this process down. It’s only limiting if you don’t think much of the person you are, the package you bring to the equation. It’s only limiting if you realize there are areas that are fixable, and do nothing.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “Who decides each person’s league is the people who date or will not date that person. That is the only assessment that matters.” And, more importantly, different people will rate you differently depending on their personal biases and other factors.

          Or, perhaps more correctly, there are a variety of factors people are rated on that are pretty consistent, but how each factor is weighted will vary for each person making an assessment. That’s the root of so many women overestimating their value to men: the set of weights they’re using are taken from how they weight their assessments of men and differ drastically from how men weight their assessments of women. The reason “opposites attract” is that most people heavily weight factors they’re weak on and lightly weight factors they’re strong on, i.e. they’re looking for someone who complements them.

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        • Andrew Says:

          Awesome stuff Crotch Rocket. The thousand pound elephant in the room is materialism which includes wealth, looks, education, profession, status, fame, etc. This is the society we live in; we are all touched by it. All are involved; all are consumed.

          It’s so funny when people imagine they can get someone with significantly more in the categories above mentioned, but absolutely would not encourage someone with even slightly lesser than them. So if they won’t encourage someone with slightly lesser, why would someone with significantly more, encourage them? Hypocrisy, denial, delusion!

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  8. Charlie Says:

    I certainly think about dating a lot, but the thing is I usually keep it to myself.

    And as for guys taking women’s advice, I’ve got to say most of what I’ve heard is absolutely shittastic. The old staples “just be yourself” and “try being friends first” come to mind. It’s not just that the advice I’ve gotten from women is bad as in it doesn’t help, but it actually is completely counterproductive as it’ll just get you friendzoned.

    That being said I’ve seen some fantastic advice when it comes to stuff like disrespectful dates and what to do when you aren’t getting what you need out of a relationship.

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  9. dimplz Says:

    “What is your opinion on this new trend of the barrage of discussions and blogs that seem to revolve around what men like, want, need and how to get them, satisfy them, and keep them?”
    I’m sorry, but if you constantly have to think about these things, you are with the wrong person. The reason there aren’t more (or any) shows about teaching men how to please a woman is because men are not nit picky or obsessive about whether they are making a woman happy. The only time men usually realize they aren’t happy is because the woman voices it. And there is always something he can do better. Yet, I have never had a guy sit me down and tell me, “We need to talk. You did suchandsuchandsuch the other day and I was really hurt by that. It made me feel bad.” Nope. They just suck it up. Why? Because they know we are human, we make mistakes, and it’s really not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. But how many times have women, including myself, had to “talk” to a man about something they said that I felt was insensitive and just HAD to address? Plenty. And therein lies the problem. The more women examine the relationship and their wants and needs, the more their demands increase. If you were to enjoy the relationship for what it is, point out the many ways in which this person makes you happy, you would be much happier. Instead, you focus on the lack. Bree, if this is the commenter who is frequently on this board, has many negative ideas and portrayals of men. If that’s what you expect from men, that’s exactly what you will get. Why would you meet anyone who doesn’t fit your interpretation of how men are? You expect little, you will get little. However, if you believe there are men who are like-minded and see a relationship where you have a friendship underneath it all, that’s what you will get. Two people aren’t always going to make each other happy. It’s impossible. No one knows what truly makes me happy. But if that person being themselves makes you want to be around them, and that’s what makes you happy, then you will have a great relationship. What people need to stop doing is surrounding themselves with people that they want to change so they can be people they want to be around. It’s illogical and a waste of time.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “Yet, I have never had a guy sit me down and tell me, ‘We need to talk. You did suchandsuchandsuch the other day and I was really hurt by that. It made me feel bad.’ Nope. They just suck it up.” Most of the time, yes. However, every time we’re disappointed, frustrated, angered, etc. we reassess whether the benefits of the relationship outweigh the costs. If so, we suck it up and move on. If not, the relationship is over. Talking it to death is not going to change the facts of the situation.

      “if you constantly have to think about [what men like, want, need and how to get them, satisfy them, and keep them], you are with the wrong person.” Yep. A man will clearly express what he wants; all a woman has to do is decide whether she wants to give it to him. If not, we part ways and seek a better match. This isn’t exactly rocket surgery. The problems come when women decide not to give a man what they know he likes/wants/needs yet, for some reason, still seeks a relationship with him. She would be much better off finding a man who wants what she’s willing to offer–or, if there are no “acceptable” takers, reevaluating whether what she’s willing to offer.

      “Two people aren’t always going to make each other happy.” If you’re relying on someone else to make you happy, you’re fucked, no matter who you’re with. True happiness comes from within, not from without.

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    • Breebree Says:

      dimplz I don’t constantly think about these things…but I see numerous blogs and more articles written by men for women on how to get and keep a man as opposed to men being trained on to get and keep women.
      And when you think about it women have been trained to be good wives since the early 1900’s and before. Think back to home economics classes where girls in highschool learned to sew, cook, and take care of babies using baby dolls and it was part of the curriculum while boys took woodshop or something related to work. In other countries women are prepped from the time they are girls on how to run a household and take care of a man.
      But in the U.S. all I see is women asking the same questions repeatedly but not wanting to actually follow the advice they are given.
      Imo it’s beginning to be overkill at this point. The questions have been asked and answered numerous times. When is any action going to take place.

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      • dimplz Says:

        Bree, you have written in multiple questions about this topic. It seems like you’re doing it because you want to actively participate in this discourse, given by the number of responses you’ve posted to the other commenters. This is pretty much a sociological topic that you are tackling here. Women are socialized to act one way, and men are socialized to act in another. Since men have been running Western civilization for some time now, they created a “support” role for women and perpetuated those ideas through media and education. However, the US doesn’t represent the whole world. There are many other societies that are matriarchal, they just don’t happen to be here.

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        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          This is what I mean when I say women ask for advice, but don’t really want it. It’s like that letter we got a few months ago from the woman who had gone out with the guy three or four times and never knew his last name. She posed it as a question of security and safety. But really it was just a way for her to vent about the fact that he ditched her.

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  10. UGH! Says:

    We are not obsessed about dating for the same reason we don’t date women who are more than 5 lbs over weight: We don’t have to! As a previous writer has said women put way too much effort into this. I was recently out with a woman. I get it that dating is basically an interview, did she have to be so clinical about the process? I knew right off the bat who I was dealing with: A woman who has, “Read all the right books”, been to dating seminars… I could tell by the questions. She was good…at killing the mood!
    UGH!

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  11. Mark Says:

    Interesting post. To a large extent I would agree with both Moxie (esp the latter part of her reply to the OP) and C### Rocket.

    Just to add a little more: On a fundamental level I think men are conditioned to actually DO something. They will conduct a quick analysis and do or not do an action. If they get a positive result- great, if not…well OK get up off the ground, dust yourself off and move on. One thing they really don’t do is talk about doing. So they are not likely to over analyze a situation very often. They may be wrong about their choice, but they wont suffer from paralysis by over analysis. If you think about it, that’s why sports activities and watching the sporting events is so popular with men. It’s action and results oriented. Maybe that’s right, maybe it’s wrong, but it’s what most guys seem to do.

    As to who has the upper hand. In all fairness that depends. The qualities deemed desirable or attractive by either gender will always be in demand. In any event, people with a shortfall in one or more desirable attributes probably will have to try that much harder and smarter.

    Interesting post

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    • Breebree Says:

      I agree Mark….Men are more inclined to “do” while women talk, talk, talk, discuss, conversate and talk some more and still don’t do anything.
      Thats probably a majority of the problem right there.

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    • Breebree Says:

      Mark I think men have the upper hand because no matter how physically beautiful a woman is and intelligent and everything else it still does not guarantee her the main things most every woman wants from a man; His Heart. It doesn’t guarantee that the man/men she desires will want to commit to her and/or marry her and it doesn’t guarantee that he won’t cheat on her at some point.
      Plus women seem to be much more desperate and hard up for a man and marriage nowadays as opposed to men being desperate for a woman to marry.

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      • The Private Man Says:

        Women are the gatekeepers of sexuality.

        Men are the gatekeepers of commitment.

        Hence, after a certain age, men (if they know this) have the upper hand.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “no matter how physically beautiful a woman is and intelligent and everything else it still does not guarantee her the main things most every woman wants from a man; His Heart.” That’s because that’s not how you get to a man’s heart; that’s how you get into his pants, which isn’t much of an accomplishment. You’re like one of those people I see at stores, trying to buy something with a credit card when there is a clear sign on the register saying only cash is accepted. You’re welcome to browse, but that’s it; if you want to buy, come back with the right form of payment. But, oops, you ran up your credit card already and can’t get any cash from your bank…

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        • Bree Says:

          Crotch Rocket a woman can be there for a man also and cook and clean and be his support system and his cheerleader and uplift him and be all the things he needs but still as I said this doesn’t guarantee the man won’t cheat on her or be in a relationship with her.
          With men part of the decision to commit or not is about timing right? I know men who have told me they have met wonderful women and the woman was everything he wanted and needed, beyond just the physical but he wasn’t ready for a commitment and/or marriage.
          Simply put the man has to be ready. A woman could be the Virgin Mary and everything a man could ever want in a woman but if he isn’t ready to commit at that time then he won’t.

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          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            “a woman can … be all the things he needs but still as I said this doesn’t guarantee the man won’t cheat on her or be in a relationship with her.” I disagree. My experience is that, when the first woman appeared who was all the things I needed, I was suddenly ready. Unfortunately, at the time I wasn’t the man she wanted, and she moved on. And that’s what caused me to reevaluate who I was and start making major changes in my life so that, the next time I run across a unicorn, she’ll say “I do”.

            Men are not scared of commitment, though it may look that way, even to us; we’re just scared of committing to the wrong woman.

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      • Charlie Says:

        “I think men have the upper hand because no matter how physically beautiful a woman is and intelligent and everything else it still does not guarantee her the main things most every woman wants from a man; His Heart.”

        And no matter how sweet, caring, and smart a man is it doesn’t guarantee him one ounce of attention, one single date, or commitment. Seriously, this who has it worse nonsense it pointless. There are a lot of people of both sexes who are good people and have shit for luck in dating. Being a good person doesn’t guarantee you anything.

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  12. Moxie's friend M Says:

    “These writers will lay out their list of standards and tell men they have to “man-up”…and then, by the end of date one or two, just because the man asked them out via phone instead of text, she’ll be in his bed. (That just happened to my friend M. with a woman he met on OKCupid. Found her blog, read it, went out with her and she was in his bed by date 2. So much for all those standards and rules, huh?)”

    To further add to her ‘women give bad advice’ point – one of our first post coital conversations was ‘we didn’t meet online and didn’t get into bed until after a month’. I’ll go along with it – for her friends anyway. I’m not going to emasculate myself to my friends.

    Something to keep in mind when listening to a woman tell her ‘how we met’ story.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Hah. You didn’t tell me that.

      The whole purpose behind her request to spin the story is that she wants to be the one in her group of friends that didn’t have to lower herself to meet someone online. She also wants them to think that she made you “earn it” and that you were so in to her that you waited because that’s probably exactly what she’s told her friends. “Oh, Betty, you slept with him too soon! You have to make him work for it!” See what mean? Intra-gender competition.

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      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        The real irony is that each one of her friends is doing the exact same thing. They are ALL dating online, sleeping with men and engaging in casual sex but claiming not to be doing it. It’s all complete nonsense.

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  13. Rosie Says:

    Excellent post, as always, Moxie! I just wanted to add that in case folks haven’t checked it out, I am reading a really good book right now by a man, J.M. Kearns – “Why Mr. Right Can’t Find You: The Surprising Answers That Will Change Your Life…and His”.

    He has a very pragmatic approach about dating and cuts through a lot of the b.s. that women tell themselves. It’s definitely opened my eyes to being more receptive to the opportunities that are out there in life, rather than dissecting to death the reasons why I haven’t met the right guy yet.

    To me, it’s all about a typical male approach vs. a typical female approach when it comes to solving a problem. Men fix it – women talk about it…

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  14. aurora Says:

    What about Millionaire Matchmaker? Most of the Millionaires are straight men in their 30s/40s looking to settle down. Usually they are not having trouble finding a woman but finding one that they can share their life with. While some of Patti’s advice can definitely be obnoxious and the show is obviously targeted towards women, I’m pretty sure this show fits the OPs description.

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    • Andrew Says:

      Millionaires on that show are attention hounds. They couldn’t care less about finding the right one. No woman is ever going to measure up, really!

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      • kay Says:

        I agree. these men are nit looking to settle down, if they were, they’d invest in a
        dating service with a screening process that involves more than their age, employment status and whether they have a degree. The women picked for these men are no different than
        the women these men can encounter on the street. Its not a documentary, its a reality show. In fact, Patti’s screening process is no different than putting an ad on craigslist. Just doing a search on craigslist for matchmaker a minute ago resulted in 3 ‘millionaire matchmaking agencies.’ These women don’t ask any question about the men, they’re simply interested in their millionaire status.
        I’m not a millionaire but if I were, I wouldn’t want that to be the reason a person chooses to date me.

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      • Kurt Says:

        I like that show but I doubt that any of the couples go out for more than a few dates. If anyone who met on that show had gotten married, Patti Stanger would have probably aired a special wedding episode to celebrate.

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  15. P. Says:

    The Cosmo-like mockup at:

    https://www.facebook.com/agirlsguidetotakingovertheworld

    pretty much says it all. When you look at that knowing that it’s supposed to be a “women’s magazine” sendup, you realize that guys don’t residually have and don’t tolerate being surrounded by this level of insecurity and angst, much less seek it out regularly in the guise of “helpful information you need to have in order to be happy and have a good life.”

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  16. Dalrock Says:

    Excellent post, and thanks for the link!

    That’s because, I think, men see the spectacularly bad advice women give to each other and have no interest in being tutored by a female. They want to hear it from a man, and those shows and websites absolutely exist.

    This is very close, but it is slightly different. One thing I’ve noticed about men and women’s blogs on sex/dating is they both tend to focus on the same thing; what men should do to attract and keep women. The key difference is that the men are far more likely to understand what women actually want. I know this is counterintuitive, but women as a group are completely clueless about what they actually want, and (most importantly) actually respond to. Men don’t trust women’s advice on women because they know from direct experience that it is worse than useless. Men have to learn this the hard way, and once learned it is a bitter lesson.

    The reason for this is that women have a very strange habit (from a man’s perspective) when giving advice. Men ask women what men can do to make them attractive to women. Women think of a man they are attracted to, and then think of how they wish that man would act and/or treat them. This is the answer to a totally different question than what the man asked, and it produces disastrous results. This is why every man who ever asked a female friend, his sister, his mother, etc what he should do to make a woman like him gets the same disastrous advice:

    1) Be nice.
    2) Buy her flowers/gifts, etc.
    3) Pay attention to her.
    4) etc.

    Women are mistaking comfort for attraction, and these are entirely different things (a good explanation is here, and his book is even better). A man a woman isn’t attracted to won’t build attraction by doing things which increase comfort. In fact, he will do the opposite; instead of becoming more attractive to her he will come off as creepy. Men need to first generate attraction, and then they can build comfort with the woman.

    A fellow blogger has captured this in several posts. If you found my site and Badger’s interesting I think you might enjoy his site as well. His name is The Private Man, and he actually is going to be teaching a class to women on dating. Here is a post on his site where he talks about the bad dating advice he received from his mother. He has another one on the same basic topic here, covering something I discussed in my own blog as well.

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  17. Breebree Says:

    I agree with Nathan and Moxie. For me this was more of me stating my opinions and what I see and hear and wondering “is it just me or is everything nowadays all about schooling women on how to get and keep a man”?
    The other thing I notice is that many times folks ask questions that they already know the answer to or should know the answer to (I do this myself sometimes). So as you mentioned Moxie people just want to have their opinions and views validated and their ego’s stroked and be agreed with more than anything. They really don’t want answers and real honest advice that they will follow so why even ask the questions. I also see women asking the same questions repeatedly and men answering the same questions repeatedly like: why do men cheat? how can I keep my man from cheating? Why didn’t he call me back after we had a great date and he said he really liked me? Why am I not good enough for this man when I’m educated, intelligent, can cook, have a good job, my own house and car etc etc etc…..? Why can’t this man be totally committed to and beholden to me and only me? I’m surprised men aren’t tired of hearing and answering the same questions from women over and over again.
    I just wonder when will it ever end and when will we as women “get it” and get over it and get over ourselves and take responsibility for our own happiness?

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