When Playing Hard To Get Works Against You

We’ve all heard that sage bit of advice about how we shouldn’t make ourselves too available, right? Well, I think some women and men have taken this advice too literally. The point of playing hard to get is to eventually get caught. And “playing” is the operative word. As in taking a playful approach to the process. Playful is good. Playful can be attractive. Where it goes wrong for many men and women is that they become too willful and insistent. That’s when the dynamic becomes less fun and enjoyable and more like a pissing contest.

Here are some common ways single men and women turn what is supposed to enhance attraction into a grudge match.

1. Oversharing - Nothing will bring a great conversation or date to a screeching halt than revealing that you’re actively dating other people. One should always assume that the person they’ve just met, especially if they met online, is going out with other people. That’s sort of the point of online dating..to provide singles with more options.  It’s common for someone you’re meeting for the first time, whom you met online, to ask you about your online experience. That’s the common bond that you two both share. It doesn’t mean they aren’t interested. Usually it just means they’re scrambling for something to talk about so they can get comfortable. Where it takes an ugly turn is when they tell their date that they have another date scheduled in the near future, or have met someone that they’ve seen a few times. Ever been on a great interview and you’re sure that you’re a top contender for the job, and then the interviewer tells you that they have other people to see or that they’re going to narrow it down to a few people? You know how deflated you feel? That’s how somebody feels when they’re sitting across from you or on the other end of the phone and hear you talk about your other dating candidates. I think it’s good to let the other person know that you are exercising your options. In fact, I advise it. But you can do that without shooting yourself in the foot.

2. Passive Aggression - Here’s a common scenario: you and he/she set up a night, time and place to meet that is a few days in the future. The day comes and time creeps by and you don’t hear from them. You’re waiting for them to check in, assuming that if they don’t that they’re not interested. You refuse to take the initiative because you fear it will make you look needy or clingy. In an attempt to seem detached and unaffected you text them and say, “So I guess we’re not meeting up?”  or “Hey, didn’t hear from you about tonight so I made other plans.”  Messages like that squarely place the blame on them. You were so afraid of looking too available or like you were too invested that you end coming across like you have a chip on your shoulder. And you seem kinda rude, as you’re assuming the worst in the other person.Now you’ve played your hand, revealing your insecurity. That will be a red flag to your date. Don’t be surprised if you never hear from them again.

3. Double Booking - You’ll schedule a preliminary let’s meet and see if the other has three eyes “date” with someone you encounter online. But you plan that date before another appointment that same night. Now, it’s one thing to do this and keep the fact that you have other plans to yourself. Sharing that info, however, sends a distinct message.  One that conveys lack of interest, game playing, mistrust and unavailability. The best thing about dating is the chance that that will be THE night, the one where you and your date get on really well and see where the night takes you. Every date holds that promise. It’s a let down to be getting on well with someone and then notice that they’re constantly checking their watch or has to split abruptly. It screws up the momentum that you just spent the last hour or so building. If you’re one of those people that has a built in escape plan “just in case” then you’re already in a self-defeating mental space, and the night will almost surely follow that way of thinking.

4. Turning Down ALL Last Minute Invitations - Now, hold on. There are those invitations that come in last minute where it’s obvious that you’re being treated as an option. That’s a personal preference as to whether you want to accept those invites. If they barely stay in touch and pop in they pop out for days at a time, then it’s safe to say these people aren’t terribly genuine. But…sometimes things come up. A friend gets sick, they get out of work early, they want to go out and think of you. When someone reaches out like that, it’s not always an insult. I understand the 48 day rule (yay rules!) but sometimes you just have to trust your gut and give it a go. Especially now, when all someone has to do is hop online and find someone else.

5. Hiding Behind Unnecessary Rules & Tests - This one is directed more at the ladies. In an attempt to stand they’re ground and up the ante, thereby accommodating their need to feel valued, they will invoke or use certain rules or excuses to get a man to prove himself to her. There’s a cute and rather pointless rule women use when they go on a first or second date. It’s the “no shaving” rule. They will intentionally go on a date without grooming legs or bikini area, believing that should things get to sexy time, their stubble shame will keep them vertical. And if the guy calls them again,  these women believe it was because they didn’t have sex with the man and that he now perceived them to be a challenge. Adorable. And totally, totally pointless. A guy just looking to get laid has probably done so several times. So he knows how these things play out. The woman just wants to get past the first, second, third date so she’s not “that girl.” Whatever. He’ll play along, because he knows where things are headed. Guys KNOW when a woman is just counting down until she can safely have sex without seeming “easy.” Those are the women who often get pumped and dumped. Either the guy resents that the woman has such a negative opinion of him despite all the ways he’s shown he’s a good guy. Or these guys realize the women aren’t following their own personal beliefs but rather those they feel have been imposed on them by society or their girlfriends. They end up looking like they can’t think for themselves. Delaying sex to gain something – commitment, emotional investment, increased “value,” etc.-  isn’t playful. It’s manipulative.

On a side note and not totally related to the topic…equally counter productive is the “safety” test. Yes. Your date could end up being a axe wielding maniac. But a phone call prior to meeting is not going to prevent anything bad from happening, should that actually be the case. In fact, I’m guessing that most sociopaths are highly skilled at being charming. It’s hard to argue when someone cites personal safety as their reason for needing someone to behave in a certain way or do what they want. Usually, though, that’s just a back end way of trying to get someone to demonstrate more interest or effort than they’re obligated to show.

 

 

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46 Responses to “When Playing Hard To Get Works Against You”

  1. Rosa Says:

    Not sure I agree with the pumped and dumped theory.

    In defense of going mind over libido and resisting our urges to sleep together in the first hour of meeting someone, there really are men who won’t call you back if you do sleep with them on the first date. There are also men who won’t call you back if you don’t sleep with them on the first date. Sometimes they are the same man. Go figure. Just easier to keep your clothes on and keep the disappointment to a minimum.

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  2. Saj Says:

    I was reading along nodding going yup yup until the rules and pump and dump stuff. Guys have their silly how much to pay for date and where to go out on date rules so let girls keep their shaving rules (though I’ve never been so wildly turned on by a guy on a first date where I need fake rules to keep from mauling him).

    Also avoiding last minute invites is a good way to weed out people trying to cheat on their bf/gf. Not full proof but it helps.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2

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    • Andrew Says:

      General wariness and apprehension vs manipulation. Guys will get around to figuring out which one it is People really don’t like being manipulated. I suppose people who are really skillful can get away with manipulating. However most us are not, so there is always a curious backlash. That backlash is generally one of “I am going to show you that you are not as clever as you think”. Pump and dump is just one manifestation of that back lash.

      Last minute invites can be anything. What ever happened to giving people the benefit of the doubt? If the guy seemed shady, then its a confirming tool, but if everything was fine, it may mean nothing but impulse enthusiam about you or that he was busy with work or that he is feeling lonely or he is thinking about you.

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      • Saj Says:

        Impulse dates are probably fine once you’ve reached maybe date 3 and up. But for a first meeting you never know. I had a guy try to set up a first date at his house at 3 am in the morning when he lived 3 hours away. When I countered with a proper date scheduled in advance he shuffled.

        Very obvious attempting to cheat situation.

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  3. Selena Says:

    I believe people should have sex when they feel comfortable having sex. It’s not uncommon however, for individuals to get swept up in a hormonal tide and have sex with someone and regret it the next day. And some women feel ‘bonded’ to a degree to a guy after having sex with him, and that’s not a good thing with a near stranger. So “stubble shame” or whatever device one comes up with to minimize the chance of regrettable initmacy has value if it prevents that outcome.

    As far as accepting last minute invitations…if it’s something you want to do, why not? If it isn’t, just decline. No games, no rules necessary.

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  4. dimplz Says:

    I think the safety test you talked about should be implemented in a different manner. Tell at least one person where you plan on going, so at least they can figure out where you were last should you go missing.

    I’ve never done the “no shaving” thing. I always have to look my best, and stubble is not cute, so I think whoever is doing that has pretty poor self-control. It’s almost like having your mouth wired shut so you don’t eat. How about just trying to keep your mouth closed?

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  5. Vox Says:

    There’s a cute and rather pointless rule women use when they go on a first or second date. It’s the “no shaving” rule. They will intentionally go on a date without grooming legs or bikini area, believing that should things get to sexy time, their stubble shame will keep them vertical.

    Do you really know adult women who actually do this? This is high school level stupid. I’ve never heard of such a thing.

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    • dimplz Says:

      Does that really surprise you? I don’t get so easily shocked anymore.

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    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      This strategy is as old as time and it’s even a principle of international relations. In the classics, Ulysses tied himself to the mast of his ship to avoid being tempted by the sirens’ song. The policy of Mutual Assured Destruction prevented nuclear war between the ussr and the us for sixty years. So, some women employ the same strategy. I think its interesting.

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    • P. Says:

      I just find it funny that a woman would think it actually works. Do you actually think a guy who likes you and has great sex with you is going to say “nah, never mind…she was a little stubbly, so I’m not going to hit that again.”

      My friend S was talking about it once and basically said…”hey, if I got her so worked up that she would do me even if she was stubbly, then yay me. I’m not complaining.”

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      • Rosa Says:

        While I like your take on it that it’s flattering that despite the stubble, she wants him, there’s a whole other angle to this that you are all missing.

        By not shaving, by wearing big, holey underwear, a woman is practically guaranteeing, that the sparks will be flying between them, and she will find herself wanting him badly, but feeling uncomfortable about him seeing her not at her sexiest.

        It is the cosmos pay back for ALL the times she got dressed up and had no place to go. It is the equal and opposite reaction to the action of spending hours preening for a blind date, just to meet a total dick; the type of guy who leaves you thinking, I can’t believe I wasted water on a shower for this jerk.

        Welcome to my world.

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        • Dan Says:

          Rosa:

          Whatever gender we may be–male or female, we HAVE ALL had bad experiences dating. I can’t tell you how many bad dates I have been on or times I thought the woman was interested and got blown off. In fact, it just happened to me, recently, and it sucked. Can I be pissed about spending money on dinner or showing absolute courtesy and never hearing from someone?Or being misled? Sure. However, like I said, it happens to everyone.

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          • Rosa Says:

            Dan, I’m sure that it works both ways. Hope I wasn’t implying that ONLY guys can be jerks. I was just being a little tongue in cheek about the whole not shaving line of discussion.

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    • Jada Says:

      I totally know women who do/did this. Also the corollary: wearing terrible, embarrasing granny panties.

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  6. trouble Says:

    I think that #5 is off somehow, at least in my experience. I think it’s a reflection of the fact that Moxie lives in NYC.

    Living in the South, and dating online a LOT, there was very little pressure for me to have sex on a first, second, or third date. I can only think of 2 instances out of probably 30-40 people I went on dates with where there was pressure and even some kind of expectation that I might even be open to having sex (in most cases, men were content with a hug or kiss goodbye well past the 3rd date). And in those two cases, it was obvious that the guys were total scumbags. I think that down here, particularly in my age group (45), people move a little more slowly, and there is less expectation that you’re even going to be willing to have sex early on.

    Guys down here tend to be a little more conservative in their views, and I have male friends who’ve expressed quite clearly to me that there are hook-ups and there are girlfriends, and the hook-ups are the girls who sleep with a guy pretty quickly. I would say that quite a lot of men down here want to be “the man,” and they want to feel like they are conquering uncharted territory (even if they aren’t). My male friends who advised me when I started dating again gave me a lot of advice like: never engage in sexual banter early on, don’t dress too provocatively on the first few dates, don’t go beyond a kiss or hand-holding for at least 3-5 dates. They told me quite clearly that men are more likely to have a lack of respect for someone who delivers the goods too quickly. There are numerous unspoken cues in dating that deliver the message that you are “girlfriend material” and not someone who is going to deliver up easy sex.

    It’s probably not like that up north. But down here, men tend to have more conservative social values, many of them are religious to boot, some of them even if they aren’t religious grew up that way, and they tend to want someone who is equally conservative as a partner. So, I would say that there are regional implications to that last bit of advice. I have a close friend who I dated briefly who then ended up giving me a lot of dating advice when we realized it wasn’t going to work out. He’s a southern boy, and he basically told me, “you showed too much cleavage on our first date to be taken seriously as girlfriend material.” At first, I was a little resistant to his advice, but it didn’t take me long to realize that when it came to men down here, he was totally right.

    I tend to think that the situation is similar in a lot of the south, parts of the midwest and definitely in some of the west, i.e., Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana. In some cases, women are responding to the social cues of the men in their particular area of the country.

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    • Dan Says:

      I live in the South and can tell you the above is not always true. Maybe because I’m younger than Trouble but I’ve gone out with “Souithern women” around Trouble’s age who have given up the goods after the first date–in fact, first meeting offline. Reviewing their resume, you would not think “trash.” In fact, the last woman I banged was from MS, 43 years old, a high powered exec, single mother and still she bedded me on the first meeting offline. Hmmm, of course she regretted it later on. lol.

      And what kind of guys are you dating. Trouble? Atticus Finch? Guys who are in their sixties? “You showed too much cleavage to be taken seriously as a g/f/ WTF? I’m just asking because I have never heard that before. The same woman that I discussed abvoe wore a see through top on our second date which allowed me to catch a glimpse of her bra and cleavage.That was nice.

      Now, another woman from MS I have talking to sounds like the conservative/traditionalist type. She expects a man to pay for dinner etc. I don’t think it’s going to go anywhere because she is too conservative and too traditionalist-e.g. does not think the feminist movement helped woman.

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    • Vox Says:

      I live in NYC, and must point out that I have a different perspective than Moxie. I have very rarely came across men who pressured me to have sex on the first or second date. Very, very rarely. Occasionally on the third date, yes, but even then it isn’t as often as what this blog conveys. NYC is a big city, so it stands to reason that there is a large variance in attitudes and expectations.

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    • dimplz Says:

      I have never been out with a man who expects sex. I guess I don’t attract that kind of man because I will start talking about Jesus and God and most likely scare them away.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “I will start talking about Jesus and God and most likely scare them away.” Yep. Ditto for online profiles stating the woman is “looking for a Christian man”. Even way back when I was Christian, I learned to move past those profiles because it’s not worth the headache even if I were interested in them otherwise.

        That’s not to say I have a problem with Christians in general or with dating/marrying one. However, if they are compelled to bring it up in their profile or harp on it during the first few dates, it’s extremely unlikely we’d be compatible.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      My male friends who advised me when I started dating again gave me a lot of advice like: never engage in sexual banter early on, don’t dress too provocatively on the first few dates, don’t go beyond a kiss or hand-holding for at least 3-5 dates. They told me quite clearly that men are more likely to have a lack of respect for someone who delivers the goods too quickly.

      If any man told me not to go beyond hand holding or kissing for 3-5 dates. I’d wonder what was up with them.

      The only men who have a lack of respect for a woman who “delivers the goods too quickly” are men with fragile egos who need to “conquer” a woman or religious fanatics (aka closet homosexuals.)

      there was very little pressure for me to have sex on a first, second, or third date.

      Other than the occasional jerk who acts like a creep from some after school special about peer pressure, men rarely overtly “pressure” a woman to have sex. They don’t tell them flat out that if they don’t put out someone else will. Those men are desperate and have to sink to that level to get any.

      If the pressure comes from anywhere, it’s from the stories they hear from their female friends. And the funny thing is…so many of those women telling their friends to wait are the ones not only agreeing to first date sex, but suggesting it.

      Saying that they had sex with a guy because they were afraid to lose him is a nice way to blame the man, because women are conditioned to believe that men “pressure” women for sex. I’d bet in at least half the cases of first date sex, the woman initiated it. And then, when she was with her friends, she lied about when she and her new guy actually slept together or why she decided to sleep with him.

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      • dimplz Says:

        “The only men who have a lack of respect for a woman who “delivers the goods too quickly” are men with fragile egos who need to “conquer” a woman or religious fanatics (aka closet homosexuals.)”

        I agree in part with what you said, that they are men with fragile egos. That religious fanatics can be closet homosexuals is an unfair statement. Yes, some people tend to take it too far, but others are very devoted to their beliefs. That they use their beliefs to judge others, I definitely disagree with, especially since they are engaging in the sexual act they are judging the other party for. However, there are many religious men who have very healthy attitudes about sex, yet don’t want to engage in it until marriage.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “others are very devoted to their beliefs. That they use their beliefs to judge others, …” shows they’re not as devout as they claim to be. See John 8:1-11 (and, to a lesser extent, Matt 7:1-5). The truly devout do not condemn sinners publicly; they pray for them privately.

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      • trouble Says:

        The only men who have a lack of respect for a woman who “delivers the goods too quickly” are men with fragile egos who need to “conquer” a woman or religious fanatics (aka closet homosexuals.)

        I think this is a nice thought, but I also think it’s wishful thinking. I do think there are a lot of men down here, because this is a relatively conservative place, who equate moving fast, sexually, with the woman being of low worth. I’m sure that isn’t true up north, but I’ve heard too many guys down here express it to pretend that it isn’t a reality.

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        • Dan Says:

          Like I said, I don’t know any men in the South who act the way Trouble describes them. Every guy I know, down here-LA, is looking to get laid like any other guy in the States. Trouble, you must live in a very conservative place or date very conservative men. I’m not criticizing just stating that you are overgeneralizing the men of the South and sex. Early sex is quite common , in some parts of the South and along the Gulf Coast where men and women drink A LOT.

          As far as men pressuring women for sex, I don’t do it nor do I know other guys who do. What usually happens is you escalate with the woman such as going in for a kiss. That’s how I do it. On the first date, I usually go in for a kiss. If she is receptive then I know she is attracted and I am, likely, to have sex with her. This also weeds out the women who are wasting my time or just want a free meal. I need to stick to this more often. However, based on my last experienc, sometimes this works too well.

          Man, but depending on their age you have to be like Atticus Finch to these Southern ladies. By that, you have to open doors, let them go first etc. to get laid. Usually the older ones 38 years old and up you have to treat like Scarlett O’ hara. however, they do take care of themselves and will look good for you. I’m not a rude person so i don’t mind it.

          As for Moxie’s comment. I agree. I am sure the lady I described above and who I had sex with on the first meeting is not telling her friends that we did have sex. Rather, probably telling them what a creep or weirdo I was.

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          • Trouble Says:

            How many southern men have you dated, Dan?

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            • Dan Says:

              I don’t need to date Southern men. I simply observe the ones I know and I can tell you the only guys I know who act the way you described them are 60 years old or older.

              The vast majority of Southern men I know aged 40 and older like to drink a lot and like to have sex. And would not complain if you showed cleavage.

              These guys you date must have fought in the Civil War or, as they probably put it, the “War of Liberation from Yankee Aggression.” Haha. I’m teasing.

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              • Crotch Rocket Says:

                “These guys you date must have fought in the Civil War” Don’t joke too loudly about that; the last Civil War widow died less than a decade ago, and people have long memories down here.

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                • dan Says:

                  Dude, I wore a yankee officer’s uniform to a party down here a few years back. I could care less about people who live in the past.

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      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        “Other than the occasional jerk who acts like a creep from some after school special about peer pressure, men rarely overtly “pressure” a woman to have sex. They don’t tell them flat out that if they don’t put out someone else will. Those men are desperate and have to sink to that level to get any.”

        I strongly agree with Moxie’s comment. There is this idea that men who are “out for sex” are going to be bad at it. I don’t doubt that guys aren’t overtly pressuring women because overt pressure doesn’t work. The pressure is implicit – coming from a guy’s ability to “go elsewhere” a fact that some women here also want to deny. Personally, and as I’ve said before, the idea that men aren’t slaves to women’s sexual decision is a threat to women and that’s why you see a somewhat emotional reaction when the idea is challenged (the same way the men react badly when a woman wants a rich guy or a guy who pays, etc.)

        As for religious fanatics and homosexuality, here is the answer. A so-called “religious fanatic” is really between a rock and a hard place. Either he is using religion as a socially-acceptable cover-story for his socially-“unacceptable,” private fantasies (not just homosexuality, though that is common), in which case he is duplicitous and hypocritical, OR he actually believes that there is some god out there who is so bored that he actually cares about and is involved with people’s sex lives, in which case the guy is a naive, ignorant rube. I give people credit so I assume they are in the former category.

        The discomfort some men have with women’s sexuality is not some well thought-out religious philosophy but, rather, the manifestation of his “icky” feeling and his insecurity. Religion is merely an elaborate and socially-acceptable justification for that.

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      • Kurt Says:

        I partially agree with Moxie’s statement, although I do think that she is wrong about men who judge men who sleep with them early on.

        If a woman is out on a first or second date with a man and behaves like she is flighty, flirts with other guys or engages in boorish behavior, and then pushes for sex with the man, that man is highly likely to simply write her off. Maybe the sex had nothing to do with him writing her off, although it probably wouldn’t help her cause. In my mind, something just seems wrong with a woman who pushes for sex when she doesn’t even seem to want to develop an emotional connection with the man.

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    • P. Says:

      To the extent your online service measures how you feel about sex in any way (like by having you answer questions), or that you screen out people who appear to only be looking for something on the casual end of the spectrum, then your mileage is going to vary on this question. I don’t think it’s the area of the country so much as the kind of person you are and the kind of person you’re willing to date.

      Guys who are on the site just to get laid more than they can accomplish in their daily lives are generally not going to have the patience to wait several dates; guys who are more relationship-minded are more likely to take the time to let things build. But even the guys who pretend to be more relationship-minded and willing to wait won’t do so for long if they think they don’t have any hope of succeeding any time soon.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “even the guys who pretend to be more relationship-minded and willing to wait won’t do so for long if they think they don’t have any hope of succeeding any time soon.” That’s true even of guys who aren’t pretending. That’s the problem with using waiting to “test” men: it screens out most of the good ones as well, leaving a woman with dedicated players, losers with no other options and religious nutjobs.

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  7. Andrew Says:

    There are a few more manifestations in the hard to get game:

    1. The concept of you should like me as I am, as opposed to putting one’s best foot forward. This is rooted in misguided arrogance. Stop thinking the success of this interraction is based only on one person’s behavior.
    2. The testing mode. This is rooted in a distorted belief that the value of yourself is greater than the other person. People do show their true colors; there is no need to test them. If fact it would be better to lull the other person into letting their guard down by being open and carefree. This will give you a faster look into their true nature and intentions.
    3. Exacting expectations. This is too rigid a view of the world. The beauty of humans is always their ability to surprise us.
    4. The poor body language that results from the hard to get mindset.
    5. Taking the fun out of it. Hard to get behavior takes too much fun out of a social interraction. What results is a contrived situation rather than a free flowing interraction. It’s a scheming situation rather than a fun situation.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 6

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  8. Jada Says:

    I’m all for safety, but I have to agree that some of the “safety” rules I’ve heard are ridiculous and counter productive. Getting him to call you insures nothing other than he can dial a phone. Refusing to get in a car on a first date would also backfire in some instances. I have had dates who would purposely want to pick me up in the car because they thought it was gentlemanly (and maybe they wanted to show off their car?) and I think if I had caustically rebuffed them that I wont let them pick me up because I fear for my safety would have offended them. Instead, in order to protect my safety, my sister and I used to have a system. Before going on a date, we would tell the other the name of the guy and any other identifying info we had, how we knew him, etc. We also would have a code phrase we would text like, “still on for yoga sun” which meant it’s all A-OK. And then, if we still didn’t hear anything by the next morning it meant call the police. It seems so paranoid in retrospect, but it made us feel safer.

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    • Steve Says:

      I think it is pretty widely accepted that people meeting for the first time from online meet at the agreed location. (Even though I am in New York where it is less common to have a car). If they can’t understand this, they are probably not worth dealing with. You (or your friends/relatives) shouldn’t have to worry about your safety on a first date, it would seemingly make it hard to enjoy yourself.

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  9. Crotch Rocket Says:

    “The point of playing hard to get is to eventually get caught.” Yep. Too many women overdo it, though, and instead of it being a fun (if pointless) game, it turns into a series of hoops that get increasingly difficult to get through, with no end in sight.

    Earlier this year, I gave up on a gal who did this to me and faded out. We ran into each other a few months later, and she asked me what happened. I told her why, and she said she was “just playing hard to get”. I pointed out the word is “hard”, not “impossible”, and that I didn’t get the sense she wanted me to catch her. She said that wasn’t true and she still wanted to see me. Despite my reservations, I called her the next day to ask her out. No answer, no return call. Fuck that.

    Dating is a game for two, not just the guy chasing his own tail for the gal’s amusement.

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    • D Says:

      I had something similar happen to me recently. Annoying.

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    • dan Says:

      Oh, damn, crotch rocket you fell for that? Damn. Did you leave a ticked off message, at least? Look, I’m not judging because I have done stupid crap with women, too.

      You see this is why guys get mad and try to get sex from a women as soon as possible. ALso, it shows that men are not the only ones who waste time and play games.

      Look, recently, I learned the hard way that I should not put all the work into pursuing a women. Mirror her behavior. Let her do some of the work; otherwise, they lose interest.

      Also, if she was interested, she would have called you crotch. Sorry. Another hard lesson I learned.

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      • Selena Says:

        Actually Dan, she is supposed to be mirroring your behavior.

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        • dan Says:

          Sure, Selena. If you are the only one calling and texting that’s a problem. I’m guilty of that which is giving too much attention, at first.

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          • JS Says:

            I respond back to every text, email and phone call with someone I am seeing /dating or trying to date (ie pre-first date). However, I have to say I don’t initiate txt/email/phone. But I have blackberry on me always so I respond back usually in minutes. Sometimes it’ll take me a couple of hrs if I am in a class or at work or in a movie, airplane, somewhere I cannot use a phone easily, etc.

            Once I am in a relationship with someone or getting close to that point, I will initiate contact and not worry about who called/txted whom when/how often. But during the dating / courtship phase, I only respond but dont initiate.

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  10. Mike Felber Says:

    There is a consistent pattern with those that are difficult-to get, applying unreasonable tests, being manipulative, not opening up & allowing spontaneity & vulnerability, not being warm & giving…An attitude of superiority that often masks a feeling of insecurity akin to fear of inferiority. And underlying this & related, valuing folks for what they get for you, do for you. Status & money or trophy girls are obvious goals, though sometimes it involves more, or just, expecting a subtle servitude.

    In any case it is not being able to value & see the wonder in another human being, & being less than fully human. Without idealizing someone, I want to admire & adore aspects of her, have affection & be playful. Even good sex is less rewarding overall if these elements are not present.

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  11. Mark Says:

    I like this part:

    “The point of playing hard to get is to eventually get caught. And “playing” is the operative word. As in taking a playful approach to the process. Playful is good. Playful can be attractive. Where it goes wrong for many men and women is that they become too willful and insistent.”

    Why? It summarizes the whold kit and kaboodle of the issue.

    24 hrs in a day. That’s what we all hae. Most people work d*** hard at their job and are busy with the every day things that take up much of the remainder. So most people really don’t like to have that time wasted. For any reason.

    Plying hard to get falls squarely into that time wasting catagory. Playful is one thing. Being a tease about it is something else. Not amny people like being teased. Period.

    I might quibble a little about the catch and being caught part. I might rephrase it as “Looking for and being found”. It just seems a little less blunt. Same thought, just a slightly different angle of view.

    Good post.

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  12. Badger Says:

    Late to the party but this is brilliant stuff. The basic point as I see it is that if you expect your partner to treat you as a person and not a vessel for resources/sex/cheap thrills/etc, you have to do the same and not treat it under the princple of least interest, where you assume the other person is fundamentally selfish and manipulative. Double booking, for one, is incredibly disrespectful.

    You’ve hit on another key point. When a woman is too “difficult,” a man will do one of two things. One is to stop dating her. The other is to keep dating her until he bangs her, then stop dating her. In a way, by setting yourself up as some kind of self-important “prize” instead of as a person a guy should enjoy spending time with, he follows your lead, and views you as an object to be won (i.e. banged). He goes into hunter mode and finds a new quarry when you’ve been felled.

    This is the fundamental fallacy of Rules Girls – you don’t WANT the man in hunter mode. You want they guy to be in chillout relaxation mode, to think “you know what, my life is really enjoyable with this woman in it. This is way better than MGTOW or playing the field, Maybe I should think about locking this shit down.”

    The sage Solomon II wrote of “Dating Nancy Drew,” where he surmised that the women most suspicious of him were in the fact the least trustworthy. He inferred that they were paranoid because they themselves knew how the game was played.

    http://solomonreborn.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/proverb-20-dating-nancy-drew/

    “But…sometimes things come up. A friend gets sick, they get out of work early, they want to go out and think of you. When someone reaches out like that, it’s not always an insult. I understand the 48 day rule (yay rules!) but sometimes you just have to trust your gut and give it a go. Especially now, when all someone has to do is hop online and find someone else.”

    I had never thought of short-window dates vis a vis the ease of getting another option, I think that’s a brilliant point. These rules are so contradictory – girls will say they want romance and spontaneity in a relationship, but then demand a dude schedule her on Tuesday for the weekend. Most of us can tell stories of great dating experiences that happened on a whim when we got an extra slice of time.

    “A guy just looking to get laid has probably done so several times. So he knows how these things play out. The woman just wants to get past the first, second, third date so she’s not “that girl.” Whatever. He’ll play along, because he knows where things are headed. Guys KNOW when a woman is just counting down until she can safely have sex without seeming “easy.””

    I was talking with a woman who told me that she insisted guys pay for dates “so I know he’s serious and not just looking for sex.” I facepalmed and told her “you think every player doesn’t know that? A player knows to flash some token cash to make it look legit, before he pumps you and dumps you.” Players are adept at massaging social conventions to the benefit of their image, and know how to make that rationalization hamster spin. It’s a weird cycle of self-delusion, women I know who have fallen for players often insist he’s not really a player, they think a player is some middle-aged dude who opens them with “Nice tits, why don’t we go back to my place?”

    dimplz also makes a good point that not shaving is a form of dressing down for a date which is itself disrespectful. It seems that these are women who don’t have a lot of self-control if they need to turn to the razor and a man’s sense of disgust at hairy legs, instead of their own recognizance, to keep them from regretful sex.

    “Usually, though, that’s just a back end way of trying to get someone to demonstrate more interest or effort than they’re obligated to show.”

    I really object to any dating systems that involve a lot of testing or somehow cajole the other side into chasing. I’m a big advocate of teaching game to guys but mainstream game teachings are very clear that while a man should not expect a woman to initiate all the steps, he also shouldn’t be doing a lot of chasing. If she doesn’t feel the need to return his calls or texts, or not flake, then he’s got to have a spine and FIDO. I don’t hear many women actually enjoying being chased – usually they find it creepy; if they didn’t, they wouldn’t be being “chased,” they’d be reciprocating.

    That went long. Keep up the good work.

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