How Feminine Do Men Want Women To Be?

First, perhaps people need to take a closer look and understand the difference between a woman who’s personal goal is to be strong and independent, and a woman who also wishes others to see her as strong and independent. the first type get their personal satisfaction by drawing boundaries, and only go on the offensive when those boundaries aren’t being respected. while the latter type, often adopt a behavior that would facilitate the way which they wish to be seen. the first type rarely announce their strength or independence, while the latter type, you can almost expect them to announce such on a regular basic and through many of their actions.

of the female friends I have, almost all of them can be considered strong and independent, because almost all of them have proven so by their own actions and their own lifestyle. yet out of all of them, only two of them have the need to display their strong and independent self, both of them go through lengths to act both directly or indirectly, in order to get people around them recognize their strength and independence. and here is the funny thing, I can describe them both, quite easily, as bossy and domineering. and being a extremely independent guy myself, I would often run into major problems with those two because their need to display and my need to maintain my dignity as a man would come clashing. – Visitor

 

“when you talk about women who have transformed themselves into men, what do you mean by that?” I’m referring to how many women seem to think they need to become masculine (or what they think is masculine) to be equal to men, thereby rejecting their (and other women’s) femininity as inferior. That can only come from deep insecurity and self-loathing, which is never attractive.

“Do you mean women who don’t have a feminine appearance?” That’s a small part of it; just look at the ridicule Hillary Clinton has endured for her entire career for always wearing pantsuits and for her butch haircuts. There are clear physical differences between men and women, and men naturally prefer women who embrace those differences over women who try to hide or ignore them.

“Or do you mean women who exhibit qualities that, when exhibited by men, are admired by both women and men, but when exhibited by women, are not similarly admired by men?” That’s it, in a nutshell.

Furthermore, such women often model the worst, rather than the best, characteristics of men–and then wonder why neither men nor women like them. That can only come from a deep hatred of men, which for obvious reasons is not attractive to men. – Crotch Rocket

 

Strong and independent should never be perceived as solely masculine characteristics. This guy says in a related post, “Strong and independent are two wonderful adjectives that belong to men” and has himself decided that any woman who considers herself strong and independent is instead “bossy and domineering.”

Some of the other stuff, yes, that’s high maintenance BS…I don’t think either gender should be “demanding,” “aggressive,” “difficult,” or “uncompromising.” Those are just negative qualities, period.

But someone who says…it’s OK for a man to be a certain way, but not for a woman, with qualities that otherwise have positive correlations…that’s usually an indication that someone is insecure, resentful, and/or sexist. And yes, angry. Maybe he has a female boss who he doesn’t like, or realized that someone he dated wasn’t the demure deferential type of woman he wanted, but that doesn’t mean he gets to redefine the language. I don’t read female profiles, so I’m not sure what others are out there saying…but I’ve had no problem attracting the type of man I’m looking for without downplaying my professional success or personality attributes. – P.

We’ve parsed the whole “are men intimidated by strong women” idea before around here. I’ve always said that I didn’t believe that, that it was one of those myths women like to tell each other. I don’t think most men think it’s a bad thing for women to be strong or independent. The problem most men have is that women, like CR said, interpret those words inaccurately, which makes the execution of such attributes come across as abrasive or demanding.
As it’s been said here, men find a woman’s professional success attractive only in that it’s something to which they can relate. It’s nice. But it’s not a requirement. The men who do intentionally seek out a woman with a certain level of career (read: financial) success are the men who have been burnt in the past, fleeced in a divorce or who are looking for someone to support them. But overall, it’s not a selling point.
But let’s talk femininity for a second. What exactly does that mean any more? We’ve frequently discussed how the idea and definition of masculinity has changed in recent years. So has femininity. It used to be distinctly defined by a woman’s ability to be demure or coy. But that doesn’t seem accurate or even appropriate anymore. I feel a woman can be strong and assertive and still maintain a distinct femininity.
I’ve used TV characters as examples in the past. Namely Diane Lockhart (Chrsitine Baranski) of The Good Wife. She’s powerful, she’s strong, she’s assertive, she’s outspoken…yet she, to me, is quite feminine. Maybe it’s her voice, that she never raises, or her fashion style. It sounds silly, but things like that seem to counter-act any overt “masculinity” that might be going on. That’s why I never wear pants on a date. Only dresses or skirts.
I want to throw another out there and see what people think. Not sure if anyone watched American Horror Story (If not, Jesus, start watching it. Catch it on demand.) For those of you who watch, I’m referring to Young Moira. Now, there’s no question that she’s extremely sexually aggressive. Yet, to me, she maintains a balance of both masculine and feminine traits. Again, maybe it’s the outfit she wears, the old school and rather short maid costume. Or maybe it’s her soft yet somewhat raspy voice. There’s something notably feminine about her that I was never able to see in our friend Samantha Jones from Sex & The City. Samantha, to me, always seemed too masculine to me. So much so that it overpowered her physical femininity, which was pretty powerful in and of itself. Samantha had an amazing body. But her demeanor was far too brash for me to consider her feminine.
I’m interested to hear – both from men and women – what they consider feminine. With all the talk about women being too “masculine” I want to hear what people use to detect or measure a woman’s femininity. If you have examples from YV or movies, feel free to share them.
Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...
Share

137 Responses to “How Feminine Do Men Want Women To Be?”

  1. P. Says:

    I just saw CR’s post and wanted to respond. Hillary Clinton is a crappy example. First, despite whatever the state of her marriage, she was never on the dating market when she.was in the public eye. She has been a First Lady, a Senator and a Secretary of State and how she dresses should not be an appropriate subject of public discussion. When is how male politicians dress a topic of conversation, much less debate? Second, she can’t win. When she wore skirts, her “cankles” were ridiculed. When she wore a lower-cut blouse, even a hint of her cleavage caused a ruckus. The double standard we hold our female politicians to is ridiculous, and then we wonder why, unlike so many other countries, we have such a low percentage of them.

    As for the rest of the post, I can’t believe we still have to have this conversation in 2011. I wear pants because I look much better in them. Period. It’s not because I’m trying to be a man — it’s the curse of my short, muscular, tree-trunk legs. If the breasts and whatever I wear to accentuate those on the upper half
    don’t do the trick, or you’re so insecure that they insult your masculinity somehow, then you’re probably not the man for me.

    There are some men who seek out women who are successful who are not on the list: those looking for an intellectual partner. I know a number of men who are in business or professional partnership with their
    wives or partners, and their marriages/partnerships are strong enough to withstand spending every aspect of their lives together. That kind of bond isn’t for everyone, but they’re really impressive when you see them working.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 49 Thumb down 24

    Reply

    • Jay Says:

      And you think this is a good thing? How is this any different than a woman seeking out a man for his money?.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 23

      Reply

      • P. Says:

        I don’t mean that the guy is specifically seeking a business partner and getting a wife as a two-fer. I meant that there are guys out there who — gasp! — like women who are accomplished in their own right, as smart or smarter than they are, and who have intellectual or work pursuits in common.

        I recently saw a college friend who has always dated really smart women, and his partner of 15 years or so (they have decided not to marry) also co-publishes academic articles in the same field with him. A colleague was offered a job in another country, and can take research colleagues with him, and he has offered jobs to both of them, because it is understood that they are a team, and critical to each other’s work. I know several marriages/long-term relationships that include being law partners, and some partners in other types of businesses as well.

        Moxie said,
        The men who do intentionally seek out a woman with a certain level of career (read: financial) success are the men who have been burnt in the past, fleeced in a divorce or who are looking for someone to support them.

        Those all sound like pretty negative things, don’t they? But I’ve seen it happen with guys who aren’t looking for someone to support them — but someone who will be a strong, equal life partner. Unless a man is really wealthy (the 1% in today’s parlance), he’s going to need the woman’s income to support their family in today’s economy, so there are some guys who have realized that having a woman who can hold her own does not threaten his masculinity, but is going to make his life even better.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 19 Thumb down 13

        Reply

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “Unless a man is really wealthy (the 1% in today’s parlance), he’s going to need the woman’s income to support their family in today’s economy,” I call bullshit on this. The median household brings in around $45k/yr. I make several times that and would have no trouble supporting a family by myself, yet am not even close to being in the top 1%. Heck, if I got married and had a few kids, the annual tax savings alone would amount to nearly that much.

          The problem for most families is not how much they earn; it’s how much they spend and how little value they get for it.

          Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 3

          Reply

        • M Says:

          “Unless a man is really wealthy (the 1% in today’s parlance), he’s going to need the woman’s income to support their family in today’s economy,…” Not true. You dont need to be in the top 1%. Or the top 10%. Or even the top 20%. If you dont believe that, get out of the [high cost of living] city once in a while and you will be reminded of that. Besides, now more than any time in recent history, there are more families getting by on one income; this is due to the economy and one of the two people in a couple losing their job. Just had to throw that out there.

          Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 1

          Reply

        • Grace Says:

          Agree wholeheartedly.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

          Reply

    • Brad Says:

      “When is how male politicians dress a topic of conversation, much less debate? ”

      When Mrs Clinton ran for Senate (the 1st time) she ran against a man named Rick Lazio (House member trying to climb up to Senate). All of the major New York media – TV, radio, print – buzzed about his campaign apparel choices, which typically had him in khakis and a polo shirt. The discussions were endless – they started out amusing, but after a week became tiresome.

      I think if men or women in the public eye dress as expected, they will avoid discussion. When leave that vertical (usually they knowingly leave it), they become a target of discussion.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 3

      Reply

      • P. Says:

        I don’t live in New York, so I missed the media about Rick Lazio…I agree with you that a male politician who dresses atypically might raise some eyebrows or invoke some commentary…but it’s much more challenging for women.

        If she wears pantsuits, she’s trying to be a man. If she wears skirts, she better have perfect legs, and they better not be what anyone considers too short. Her blouse better not be cut too low, because is it appropriate for a world leader to show cleavage? Women are expected to wear some sort of heel to be feminine, but candidates often have to be on their feet for 12, 14, 16 hours a day or more. If she wears designer clothing, she’s out of touch with the financial realities of her constituents. If she doesn’t, then she’s trying to look dowdy. If she’s caught wearing something multiple times, then people comment on that too, even though a man can wear the same suit, tie and comfortable shoes over and over and no one blinks an eye. If she tries to look sexy and feminine, she’s not taken seriously; if she doesn’t, then she’s considered to be trying to be a man, or worse, a lesbian.

        It’s a really difficult line to walk: one which we don’t typically put our male politicians though, who can put on a suit and be done with it. In terms of dating, men have different conceptions of attractiveness, and the goal is to find someone who finds you sexy. But in terms of women in business and politics, I really think we need to examine the double standard we have: stop focusing so much on how they dress, and focus on how they lead.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 27 Thumb down 7

        Reply

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “stop focusing so much on how they dress” That’s ironic, considering you are the one that seized on a minor point about clothing and ignored the real substance of what was said.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 6

          Reply

          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            Clothing totally plays a part in what men consider feminine. We’re not talking about politics or the workplace.We’re talking about dating.

            And in regards to dating, I think men prefer women wear skirts and dresses.

            Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 21 Thumb down 2

            Reply

      • The D-man Says:

        Waaaaay back in 1992 I seem to remember Lamar Alexander, Republican presidential primary candidate, getting a lot of flack for always wearing plaid flannel shirts. In 2004 John Kerry got accused of “looking French” because of his style of dress. He tried to counteract it by going duck hunting.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

        Reply

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “Hillary Clinton is a crappy example. ” I disagree; she’s one of the best-known examples of a woman that goes out of her way to not look feminine. And that was a minor point anyway.

      “she was never on the dating market when she.was in the public eye.” So what? Are you claiming that women shouldn’t look feminine once they get married, as if they somehow stop being women? Perhaps, if so many women didn’t share that belief, their husbands wouldn’t cheat on them at every opportunity with women who do look feminine.

      “When is how male politicians dress a topic of conversation, much less debate?” It’s a topic of conversation when any politician deviates from the norm. If Barney Frank showed up on the House floor wearing a dress, for instance, the media would be all over him. However, he wears a suit like every other male politician, if for no other reason than he knows that’s what’s expected of him.

      “you’re so insecure that [women waring pants] insult your masculinity somehow, then you’re probably not the man for me.” It doesn’t insult my masculinity at all; it just means you probably won’t look feminine and therefore I won’t be attracted. That is your choice. However, you’re fooling yourself if you don’t think that men will react to the choices you make, which will affect your dating prospects.

      “There are some men who seek out women who are successful who are not on the list: those looking for an intellectual partner.” So now you’re sinking to petty insults? Many men are looking for an intellectual partner; being intelligent and being feminine are not mutually exclusive. That is yet another lie women tell themselves to make themselves feel superior by putting down other women.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 17 Thumb down 8

      Reply

      • myself Says:

        How is wearing pants unfeminine? It all depends what else you’re wearing with it….I only wear skirts/dresses in the summer and doesn’t stop guys hitting on me …. I manage a freight forwarding branch….masculine work traditionally, but there’s no question I’m feminine, but having to do both sales and possibly drive our 20 ton truck or forklift precludes me generally from the skirt thing. Doesn’t mean I don’t look feminine while doing it. Seriously….

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 3

        Reply

      • P. Says:

        I wasn’t sinking to petty insults at all…I really thought Moxie did guys a disservice when she said “The men who do intentionally seek out a woman with a certain level of career (read: financial) success are the men who have been burnt in the past, fleeced in a divorce or who are looking for someone to support them.”

        I wasn’t saying that intelligent women couldn’t be feminine…I was saying that there are guys who look for intelligent successful women who aren’t broken in some way, as her comment seemed to imply.

        In terms of Hillary Clinton — I don’t think that we should evaluate how someone dresses as a politician (or their day-to-day professional lives) to determine whether we want to date them. For example, I don’t find suits sexy or attractive on a guy, and a guy who wears them a second longer than required is not someone to would be appealing to me. But if he showed up to court or many workplaces wearing what I found attractive, he would not be dressed appropriately.

        And as for me…I’ve found that hair and makeup make more of a difference in how my attractiveness is perceived than whether I wear skirts. Wearing my hair longer, wearing makeup, and wearing more form-fitting clothing have really made a difference for me personally, and now that I often appear in public dressed according to the fashions of my sport, even if some guys don’t find it feminine enough…there hasn’t been a shortage of guys who find my appearance sexy enough.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 8

        Reply

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          But again, Paula, none of those men pursue serious relationships with you. What a man will accept for a casual relationship and what a man will accept for a serious relationship are usually different to some degree.

          Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 6

          Reply

          • P. Says:

            I have been in serious relationships, Moxie. Stop making it personal.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 13

            Reply

            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              Paula, you’re the one making it personal by using your personal experiences as evidence to support your theories. And in my opinion, you’re comparing apples to oranges.

              Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 14 Thumb down 8

              Reply

              • P. Says:

                Take my personal experience out of it…do you think I’ve never met someone who has ended up in a long-term relationship? I know hundreds if not thousands of couples; I’ve lived in several different states and regions; and for my work, visit at least a dozen states a year.

                I know women who are in long-term relationships which appear to be successful and happy ones who 1) never wear skirts; 2) make more money than their husbands/partners; 3) have achieved more fame and prominence in their careers than their husbands; and/or 4) are equal partners in business/professional settings with their husbands/partners.

                I also know single women who dress like unprofessional tarty bimbos…and have found “What a man will accept for a casual relationship and what a man will accept for a serious relationship are usually different to some degree.” In fact, in the circles I run in, it’s more likely that the ones who dress more “femininely” (more cleavage, shorter skirts, tighter fit) are more likely to be the ones just used for sex and not considered relationship material. And they’re also taken less seriously in the professional setting, so they’re losers all around.

                It’s possible for a woman to dress attractively wearing pants, whether it’s tight leggings or jeans that show off your curves. And I’ve known a number of guys who think a hint of sexuality is sexier than blatant cleavage or painted on clothing — not just as far as I’m concerned, but as far as all women are concerned.

                Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 14

                Reply

                • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                  I know women who are in long-term relationships which appear to be successful and happy ones who 1) never wear skirts; 2) make more money than their husbands/partners; 3) have achieved more fame and prominence in their careers than their husbands; and/or 4) are equal partners in business/professional settings with their husbands/partners.

                  But what you don’t know is whether or not those men INTENTIONALLY SOUGHT THOSE WOMEN OUT. Just because two financially successful people end up together doesn’t mean that either one intentionally sought out to find a person who fell in to a certain tax bracket. It just so happened that they found each other. You have no idea whether, if the woman had been a school teacher, the man still wouldn’t have found her attractive. You’re assuming it was her career success and financial success that drew him to her, when you have no evidence to back that up.

                  Once again, the original statement was about men who INTENTIONALLY seek out women who make a certain amount of money.

                  And I’ve known a number of guys who think a hint of sexuality is sexier than blatant cleavage or painted on clothing

                  NOBODY said that dressing in a feminine way involved baring skin or cleavage or curves. You interpreted it that way.

                  And FYI….calling women who do bare cleavage or wear short skirts “tarty bimbos” is a form of that “slut shaming” thing you hate. It’s no different than people who call Hillary Clinton “butch” for her attire.

                  Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 1

                  Reply

                  • P. Says:

                    Moxie —

                    Look at the photo you selected to accompany this blog post. Yeah, right: no bare skin or cleavage or curves there.

                    I do know a number of guys who always manage to date smart, successful, high-powered women. I can’t crawl into their brains to say whether they intentionally sought them out, but based on the evidence….it was highly unlikely that who they ended up with was an accident.

                    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 10

                    Reply

                    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                      Look at the photo you selected to accompany this blog post. Yeah, right: no bare skin or cleavage or curves there.

                      Now you’re just reaching because your argument fell apart. Yes, by all means, it was implied that women should wear short skirts with their garters showing on dates. You are incapable of admitting when you’ve either misread something or interpreted things incorrectly. Or when you’re personalizing things.

                      I can’t crawl into their brains to say whether they intentionally sought them out, but based on the evidence….it was highly unlikely that who they ended up with was an accident.

                      Then stop talking as though you have crawled in to their heads.

                      You’re choosing to believe that these men set out to find the women that they found because you need to believe that career or financial success can trump any other need.

                      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 1

                    • P. Says:

                      I interpreted your argument exactly how you wanted all of us to interpret it. You said NOBODY said dressing femininely involved baring skin…but of course they did….you did. You’ve also posted a number of times about how you dress for dates and showed us how you dress for the kitchen floor, which if it works for you, knock yourself out.

                      I don’t need to believe anything (how’s that practicing psychology without a license working out for ya? You’re not crawling into any heads, either) I believe “success” is a motivating factor in some relationships (healthy and unhealthy, with successful males and/or successful females); plays zero role in others; and in most situations, is one of many factors. Or put another way, it may be a positive factor to some men (D and DMN it sounds like), negative to others, and just part of the overall mix with everybody else.

                      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 2 Thumb down 11

                    • Saj Says:

                      Well I don’t know about new york but most rich/successfull couples I see both of them are working hard rather then one while the other takes care of the home yet I see the single family households more commen in people with lower incomes (maybe due to childcare being more expensive or choosing large families over financial security)

                      Do these men seek them out? Well there must be attributes these women have in commen that make it happen that is attractive to these men that have caused them to be successful.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 4

                    • P. Says:

                      Are we to believe that every smart successful woman who either makes more than her husband, has achieved some career success, or is part of an equal partnership was selected by accident? Oops, I didn’t know she was smart and successful — I certainly didn’t intend that to happen.

                      Some people want equal partnerships….some don’t. Some men want to be dominant; some want the female to be dominant. I don’t know why that’s so controversial or raises so many hackles, since I’m certain everyone knows successful couples who fit all molds.

                      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7

                    • Crotch Rocket Says:

                      “I do know a number of guys who always manage to date smart, successful, high-powered women” And how many of those women have they been happily married to? Perhaps they’re still dating because that is actually not what they want, but that is who they happen to meet because of their jobs and/or social circles.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

                    • Crotch Rocket Says:

                      “most rich/successfull couples I see both of them are working hard rather then one while the other takes care of the home yet I see the single family households more commen in people with lower incomes” This is self-evident, since having two people in the workforce means roughly twice the total income and significantly more disposable income, which is why they appear “rich”. That doesn’t mean they’re more “successful” except perhaps in financial terms, though.

                      “maybe due to childcare being more expensive” That’s definitely a consideration; professional childcare is expensive, so there is a fairly high bar the second earner has to clear before it makes sense. The income tax code penalizes dual-income married couples as well; in effect, the second earner pays a much higher rate than the first earner does.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

                    • P. Says:

                      >>>>The men who do intentionally seek out a woman with a certain level of career (read: financial) success

                      I was wondering what you meant by my argument falling apart, but this is the first place you mention it, so I’m assuming you’re referring to this one.

                      What you said: men who do intentionally seek out a woman with a certain level of success…

                      What you’re now arguing that you said: men who intentionally seek out a woman BECAUSE of their success.

                      The former insults every man who wants a woman who is successful. I don’t conflate “career success” with only financial success, but even if you do, there are men who want women who can pull their weight financially, even if they don’t plan to depend on them for support or still make more than they do. And there are men who are impressed with women who have done well in their careers and achieved certain milestones. Maybe it means less to some guys, and maybe it means less to guys than it does to women in comparable situations, but it doesn’t make guys who want those things defective.

                      There’s a real difference between having a minimum bar that someone must clear to be dateable, and selecting someone for that reason only. Don’t believe me? Let’s substitute another quality: Say I “intentionally seek out a man with a certain level of athletic prowess.” So couch potatoes and those who have never seen the inside of a gym are out; guys who take time several days a week to work out or practice a sport are in. If I end up with an athletic guy, it’s certainly because I intended it that way.

                      Compare that to when I “intentionally seek out a man because of his certain level of athletic prowess” and refuse to date someone who is not an Olympic athlete. Agreed, that would be messed up and delusional. The former, not so much…there are men and women who make that specific decision about their dating partner all the time.

                      I thought you would be familiar with the implications of your own words, which is why I let this argument go, but it apparently made you believe my argument (which is basically your argument) had fallen apart.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6

                • Grace Says:

                  My God! A

                  Are men actually choosing women for long-term relationships based on whether they wear skirts or pants?

                  Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 6

                  Reply

                  • Crotch Rocket Says:

                    No, we do not. Clothing was a minor point that Paula has latched onto so she could hijack the conversation.

                    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 4

                    Reply

                  • P. Says:

                    Maybe Crotch Rocket doesn’t. I hope not. Moxie thinks guys do, because here’s what she told me:

                    >But again, Paula, none of those men pursue serious relationships with you. What a man will accept for a casual relationship and what a man will accept for a serious relationship are usually different to some degree.

                    Given that this came right after I said, “there hasn’t been a shortage of guys who find my appearance sexy enough,” apparently how I dress is affecting whether I’m in a relationship or not. Except that it’s not.

                    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 6

                    Reply

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “there are guys who look for intelligent successful women who aren’t broken in some way, as her comment seemed to imply.” I disagree. Those guys are just looking for a woman that will improve their life; whether she happens to have a high income is irrelevant. If a man is looking for a woman with a high income, IMHO he is broken in some way.

          In fact, that you (and many other women) equate “success” with a high income shows just how deep the problem is. There are myriad ways to be successful, and as far as relationships go, that is probably one of the least important.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

          Reply

          • P. Says:

            I am the last person to equate income with success. I don’t think that about myself, and I don’t think it about other people, including the men I date.

            That’s why I reacted so strongly to Moxie’s comment:

            The men who do intentionally seek out a woman with a certain level of career (read: financial) success

            There are men who seek out women with a certain level of career (not necessarily financial, or at least exclusively so) success because brains and self-confidence appeal to them. Sure, there are guys looking for sugar mamas (although many fewer than guys looking for sugar daddies, I think we can all agree). But there are guys who want an equal partner in life, who have themselves been successful, and admire women whose accomplishments and success (again, not necessarily financial) can rival theirs.

            Just as there are some guys who want to play a dominant role in the household; don’t want a woman who is too smart or too powerful or makes more than they do; and need to be the one in charge in the relationship. Different strokes for different folks, right?

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 6

            Reply

            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              There are men who seek out women with a certain level of career (not necessarily financial, or at least exclusively so) success because brains and self-confidence appeal to them.

              The men of which you speak who seek confidence, brains AND a woman who works in a high level position who aren’t looking for a Sugar Mamma are not the norm. To hold out for a man like that is the equivalent of searching for a needle in a haystack. The original comment on which this tiresome argument was based stated that men who intentionally seek out women who has a considerable level of financial success are usually gold diggers or have been burnt in the past and don’t want to be taken to the cleaners in a divorce or wanted solely for their bank account. You’re hanging your hat on a tiny percentage of men as if they are viable options for most financially successful women.

              Confidence and brains and success are relative to most men.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

              Reply

              • P. Says:

                I think it depends on the industry. Maybe not in the financial and banking sector, but in law….I see it all the time.

                In fact, of 6 partnered lawyers on my board of directors, four are in dual lawyer relationships, one has his wife running his large law firm, and the other is married to a high-powered businessman who started dating her after she had been a successful lawyer. In fact, of the people I meet professionally, it’s more unusual to find someone whose spouse or partner isn’t doing something equivalent to them, whether in law, or another industry.

                When I was married, I was always having to explain that my husband wasn’t a professional, because it was pretty much expected.

                It’s not the money that is getting in the way of financially successful women finding a man with equivalent success. It’s usually, in my experience, a combination of time factors (when and where are they able to meet men? how much time can they devote to dating?) or personality traits that are negative, regardless of who has them, male or female.

                Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 8

                Reply

              • Grace Says:

                What is the need to make blanket statements about millions of people – male or female? Can’t we all be ‘right’ based on our experiences?

                Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 5

                Reply

  2. Chester Says:

    I have known many women who try to be “strong and independent”. It seems to go against the nature of many women… and they really fight it… and I don’t think they are any happier for being someone they are not. They deny their own feminine nature. They get a lot of pressure from media and their own peer group to “Be that independent person that doesn’t need a man”. And you know what? They try so hard to resist their own nature to be that loving woman…. and they stay single and lonely and not very happy. I find this very sad.
    Many women have had this “Be like a man” attitude driven in them so much they will read this and think I can’t believe he said this – how unpolitically correct — but if women really look deep into themselves they will see some truth to this….

    Few men are impressed with a strong and independent woman for dating. And no, most men are not intimidated by power women, they simply don’t want to put up with a sense of entitlement that women with power feel they deserve when men put little value on it in the first place.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 14 Thumb down 13

    Reply

    • Cricri Says:

      You don’t make any sense. How is being loving the opposite of being strong and independent? What about strong and independent mothers who do anything for their kids, even selling their bodies? or are you saying that even strong and independent men are not loving, towards their partner and kids?

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 5

      Reply

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        I think what he was saying is that “independent” as often used by women means they don’t need/want a man, can’t be vulnerable, can’t compromise, etc. And lots of men take the “strong” part a bit too far as well and are unable to show their wives/kids how much they love them. Perhaps that’s what those women are (wrongly, IMHO) trying to emulate, though I can’t figure out why…

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

        Reply

  3. D Says:

    The main things I look for are smarts and looks. I like a girl who makes an effort to look her best (I do the same in return). And I really like a girl with brains.

    Strong and independent – what does that even mean? That she has a job? That she can pay her rent?

    I do like someone who is engaged in a job they really enjoy, or at least on the path to finding that.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 23 Thumb down 3

    Reply

  4. Saj Says:

    I think you can compare why men don’t like strong assertive women with why women don’t like nice guys. The truth is people like both but if someone can’t seem to make it work they use these buzzwords to describe why when it’s other aspects of their personality (bossy, pushy, brash, meek, squirrely, passive aggressive) that are the turn off.

    In a game I play I come off as this brash, aggressive in your face person and have a ton of fun doing it. I’ve met a lot of people who play this game with me offline and they are always surprised because while I still display all of those things to an extent it’s also in a small soft spoken package. I would hear I always pictured you bigger…taller..or even in some cases Texan. So I agree that your demeanor and what you look like can counter act or soften some personality traits though if your a sturdy looking woman like Hillary trying to push the femininity in your appearance may come off as silly and backfire.

    I agree though that some women try to push these buzz words out there as an excuse why they haven’t reached their goals yet (my life is complete, I’m much too busy working to secure my future, I don’t need anyone to be happy) but they always come off as insecure to me or trying to sell me too hard. If you are all of these things then why the need to sell it or argue it rather then just being content in who you are and your life’s choices. An angry reaction when anyone slightly challenges it shows me that they are compensating in trying to maintain this facade that they are tougher then they are.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

    Reply

  5. myself Says:

    Until I have gotten to know someone I don’t tell them what I do for a living (I’ll tell them my industry but not that I run the local branch), I don’t need to be prejudged for the fact that I worked to get to a certain corporate level. As I stated earlier, femininity isn’t an issue., I can drive the forklift in heels if my warehouse guy is sick….

    I don’t try to run relationships, I’m the boss at work, it doesn’t spill to my private life, in fact I tend to be a bit submissive in my private life. I don’t always want to be the boss.

    That being said, the workplace, depending on your industry can sometimes require a woman assert herself or be more “masculine” in approach. My industry is male dominated, I also work for an Asian based company. North American meetings consist of me & 30 men, if I don’t assert myself somewhat I won’t be heard and will be dismissed.

    I sometimes get the idea that after my divorce I was supposed to just sit around waiting for someone to come along and take care of me, wait for the next man to occupy my time, not actually be happy in both my work and private life….this is the world we’ve created, both sexes had better get used to it.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 2

    Reply

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “That being said, the workplace … can sometimes require a woman assert herself or be more ‘masculine’ in approach.” Assertiveness is not an exclusively masculine quality.

      “My industry is male dominated, I also work for an Asian based company. North American meetings consist of me & 30 men, if I don’t assert myself somewhat I won’t be heard and will be dismissed.” The same can be said of those 30 men, though.

      In our culture, boys are socialized to be confrontational and direct whereas girls are socialized to be cooperative and indirect. This hurts both sexes, because both approaches have value. You can’t change how you (or anyone else) was socialized, but you can work on showing the value of your approach to solving problems when it is appropriate, bringing something to the table that others cannot.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

      Reply

  6. myself Says:

    Just to clarify, I don’t feel assertive (or masculine depending on your outlook) means being a bitch. I’m assertive without being a complete bitch. The 2 don’t have to go hand in hand and I don’t wonder if that’s not what men object to.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Gregory A. Butler Says:

      You are correct. Most men don’t have a problem with a woman being assertive or with her taking charge of a situation.

      The problem is when they are bitchy about it. When they pick fights with men, start arguments and, in general, act in ways that, if they were male, would be interpreted as throwing a challenge to a fist fight.

      There are lots of women who think that “independent” and “bitchy” are synonyms.

      They aren’t.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1

      Reply

  7. Gregory A. Butler Says:

    I think a LOT of women think that being “independent” means being a brash, obnoxious jerk with a huge chip on her shoulder who’s always picking fights with men and starting arguments for no good reason.

    That’s not being “:independent”.

    That’s being “an asshole” – and that applies if the person is male or female.

    Independent means she has her own apartment or house, her own job or business, she supports herself, pays her own bills and in general can take care of herself and isn’t looking to merge her identity into.

    A woman can be very polite, soft spoken and pleasant to be around and still be very independent. In fact, a real independent woman doesn’t have to announce to the world that she’s independent, her actions speak louder than her words.

    If you have to tell everybody that you’re independent, or if your constantly getting into screaming arguments with men (the kind of arguments where your conduct, if you were male, would get you punched in the mouth or arrested), you are not independent.

    You’re just an asshole, and you would be if you were male and acted the same way.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 27 Thumb down 1

    Reply

    • M Says:

      I agree with your definition of being independent except for the last part, about a girl not looking to merge her identity. Independent is about what you are now, not what you want to be (or not be) in the future. Also, this little phrase completely changes the definition of the word. Up until that point, I have no problem with any of those things, and these girls are completely dateable. However, when you throw in that last part, the girl becomes undateable. Why? Dates lead to a relationship. Relationships lead to marriage, and marriage is merging your identity. (Yes, I know not always) So in effect, if a girl is independent by your definition, what’s the point of dating her? In practice, this tends to play out as you described. However, that’s because these self described independent women are always on the lookout for threats to their independence, because that is the most important thing in their lives. It doesnt matter if their lives could be better with someone else. So they prevent themselves from getting into that situation. A girl (or guy) who is truly independent wouldnt mind getting into a relationship and losing a bit of her independence if it provided her a better life.

      Its funny how this works. Girls who claim to be independent may or may not be. The weird thing though is that this is a word only girls use to describe themselves. I have never heard a guy describe himself as independent. I think that a lot of girls feel this need to prove to the world or to others that they are strong enough to survive on their own, so in that sense, I think its some kind of inferiority complex. As a guy, I dont care. I really dont. In fact, because of all this baggage, I would prefer a girl who does not describe herself that way. It would just be easier you know? Fewer roadblocks on the road to a relationship, as she wont have these defense mechanisms to protect her independence.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 3

      Reply

  8. Kay Says:

    Independent doesn’t have to mean the ability to pay one’s bills, but most probably equate it to such. In the same breath, we’re long past the days of needing a man to ‘take care’ of us. But to me, independence isn’t just a financial thing. It’s the ability to function as a part and a whole; it’s being dependent on yourself but also know when to depend on others, even if you don’t necessarily need to. It’s maintaining your sense of self while in a relationship, keep your friends and some aspects of your single life, and the ability to do things and go places without your significant other. It’s knowing how to be a ME when you’ve become an US or WE.

    Sometimes, we use independence as an indicator of not needing anyone. However, some people, especially men, need to feel needed. If we act as if we don’t need them and they need to feel needed, the relationship doesn’t work. You cannot make it through life without the help of others, no matter how miniscule that help is. Keep in mind that you can depend on others and still be independent.

    I too want women to be more feminine but I’m not talking about being domestic or ‘dressing like a women.’ Take pride in being a woman, take care in the way you dress, lower your voice and quit cursing like a sailor. It’s stereotypical, but I don’t think women should curse like men, spit like them or scratch themselves in public like them. I see women in the streets, holed sweatpants, uncombed hair, outrageously loud and obviously attention-seeking; it’s ridiculous. Women should take the extra 5 minutes to look their best, be conscious of the way they dress,smell nice (or don’t smell at all). But you don’t have to dress for a man, do it for yourself; you dress better, you feel better. Carry yourself like a woman! My mother always said that a lady should be seen, then heard; I still believe this.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 17

    Reply

    • Saj Says:

      Hey lots of men find cursing and raunchy jokes endearing. But it’s cute how hypocritical men can be sometimes farting up the house and giggling about it but if I start to talk about something too disgusting it’s hey hey Wait girls aren’t supposed to talk like that! Pfft and guys aren’t supposed to giggle about their farts and how many times a day they tore up the bathroom in front of girls either but it happens.

      I think a good balance is right. The girly girls and the manly men seem to do well together and the tom boyish girls and the more domesticated guys go well too.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 9

      Reply

      • dimplz Says:

        I wouldn’t want to date a guy who wears earrings and skirts, so I can understand a guy not wanting to date a woman who acted like him, farting and cursing up a storm.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 3

        Reply

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Lots? Define “lots.” What guy wants his girlfriend cursing like a sailor and telling crude jokes to his friends? Not “lots.” In fact I’d guess few to none.

        A girl who farts and curses isn’t “tomboyish.” She, like the men who do those things, is crude. A woman can get away with being tomboyish as long as she has enough feminine qualities for compensate for the masculine traits. That is, unless the guy likes his women more macho.

        Can people please start learning how to differentiate between decent guys and assholes? Please? Could we all also learn that the men that will take you out for a burger or a cocktail once every couple weeks then take you home and have sex with you are NOT the men we’re talking about in this post? Those guys will overlook unbecoming behavior as they have no intention of sticking around long term. They don’t care about you. We’re talking about men that care about women and how they define femininity.

        Seriously…has anybody dated anything other than douchebags?

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 24 Thumb down 1

        Reply

        • Charlie Says:

          “Seriously…has anybody dated anything other than douchebags?”

          No kidding. I’m convinced the majority of women’s dating problems would be solved if they just stopped dating douchebags.

          I personally find tomboyish to be kinda sexy. Partly because I tend to have more in common with them than most women, partly because I find something sexy about women who are most comfy in jeans and a t-shirt. I don’t think macho and tomboyish necessarily go together, and I know I would be turned off by a macho or “butch” woman.

          Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

          Reply

        • Saj Says:

          Haha come on seriously? Anyone who has been in a relationship longer then 6 months gets to see that lovely ugly comedy side of their partner. The side where a 30 year old man will act like he’s 13.

          Sure the guys who do that on a first or second date are lacking social skills and graces but I have yet to see a guy who doesn’t go into little boy mode when things are comfortable. And yes that includes farting, shocking jokes and riling their gf’s up because it’s funny. The perfectly coifed man who never drops his facade just doesn’t exist for very long.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 6

          Reply

          • Saj Says:

            Yeesh we need more married people on this blog or ones in long term relationships because I seriously feel like I landed on another planet with some of the perceptions of the opposite sex that people seem to have.

            Other none dating oriented blogs people trade their horror stories all that time that seems to fit much more in reality then I guess TV shows or whatever gender bashing is trendy at the moment.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 7

            Reply

            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              Other none dating oriented blogs people trade their horror stories all that time that seems to fit much more in reality then I guess TV shows or whatever gender bashing is trendy at the moment.

              Gosh, how adorable. People taking to the internet and telling hilarious stories of that time they took a smelly dump and made their partner gag. Sign me up.

              There are also a lot of websites that teach people how to make bombs, commit suicide and murder people. Is that “typical” too?

              Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 4

              Reply

          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            Come on seriously…what? Sorry to break it to you, but not every guy goes around farting in front of his girlfriend or wife. Maybe the juvenile and classless ones do that. Or the ones who resent the women in their life.

            Whether or not a guy does that after a certain point of time together isn’t a reflection of how comfortable they are. Farting is not a relationship milestone.

            Nice try though, in your attempt to imply that you have so much more relationship experience than everyone else and therefore your opinions are more valid. Since I know many of thew commenters here, the ones who have commented in this thread, I happen to know most of them are either married, engaged or currently in or have had a number of long term relationships. They just don’t talk about them endlessly or use them to validate their arguments.

            Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

            Reply

            • Angeline Says:

              27 years married. And never did we intentionally fart, use the toilet, or employ any other toilet functions as day to day communication. Did we giggle like 6th graders when it happened? Sure we did. We told each other naughty, saucy jokes all the time. We occasionally told each other raunchy, disgusting jokes that neither of us would have dreamed of telling to anyone else, usually so he could explain some *other* reference to me. But there were some words, phrases, etc. that we simply did not use with each other. We weren’t too uptight to get in a silly mood sometimes and, like I said above, giggle like little kids about it. We just didn’t choose to use that as a major source of interaction or humor.

              Crudeness does not automatically make an appearance in long term relationships, nor does it define or elevate the relationship in terms of the closeness or comfort level of the people involved.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

              Reply

          • dimplz Says:

            You mean did my boyfriend pretend to be someone else and 6 months later change into a farting silly guy? No, he’s always been the same. Two years later I haven’t seen any drastic changes. Your posturing here is lost on me. Not all men are the same – some are stable and secure. Others put their best foot forward and fall back to the person they are, someone who is less polished. You seem to have more experience with the latter and not the former. That’s not my experience.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

            Reply

            • dimplz Says:

              *posture*

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2

              Reply

            • Saj Says:

              My experience is that I’ve had the uber polite, pull out the chairs, attentive with the right topics of conversation and then that slowly morphs into what they really are (which is being goofy, or silly, or inappropiate at times and talking to other married friends they have similar experiences). Luckily I don’t mind this as I find it funny.

              If you have someone super buttoned up where not one hotboxing joke has been made (Impossible to believe) then that can’t be the norm.

              Trust me these men had perfect social graces that would make the queen of england proud and they still reverted to 13 year olds eventually. Maybe there is a higher comfort level with me because I don’t discourage it and find it amusing while others may be less pleased to deal with that behaivor so it happens less who knows.

              Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 8

              Reply

              • dimplz Says:

                “If you have someone super buttoned up where not one hotboxing joke has been made (Impossible to believe) then that can’t be the norm.”

                So anyone who is not like the men you’ve dated it not normal?

                You seem really confident about this. Perhaps we should survey the men.

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

                Reply

              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                Hotboxing?

                Is that like a Dutch Oven? Or is that a combination of a Dirty Sanchez and a Rusty Trombone? Or is that just another way to say Donkey Punch?

                Maybe there is a higher comfort level with me because I don’t discourage it and find it amusing while others may be less pleased to deal with that behaivor so it happens less who knows.

                Yes. Of course. The fact that the men you’ve dated/date “hotboxed” you is a statement of how different (read: better) you are than other women.

                It certainly is not an indication that you dated or married men/a man who enjoyed disrespecting you to your face and because you giggled like a fool at their juvenile antics, oblivious to what that behavior actually signified.

                Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 3

                Reply

                • dimplz Says:

                  I thought hotboxing is getting high with the windows rolled up in the car.

                  Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

                  Reply

                  • Crotch Rocket Says:

                    According to Urban Dictionary, that’s the primary definition, but a lower-ranked one is (deliberately) farting in an enclosed space, such as a car or elevator. The idea is the same: to limit diffusion of the fumes.

                    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

                    Reply

                    • dimplz Says:

                      Yeah, I realized it too late. My nephew and nieces thinks it’s funny to do that. They are 8 and 5, respectively. We tell them it’s not funny – it’s rude.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

                    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                      I’m more amused by the implication that if you haven’t had a man fart around you when you’re in an enclosed space, you haven’t been in a real relationship.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

                    • dimplz Says:

                      If that’s the case, I’ve been in relationships with total strangers on the elevator.

                      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

              • dimplz Says:

                I’m just going to say this very plainly: You teach people how to treat you.

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

                Reply

              • Crotch Rocket Says:

                “If you have someone super buttoned up where not one hotboxing joke has been made (Impossible to believe)” I didn’t even know what “hotboxing” was until you brought it up. So, that tells me a lot about the kinds of guys you’ve dated and what you’ve taught them you’re willing to tolerate.

                Yes, I’ll admit that on occasion I do get silly, but everyone needs that from time to time or you’ll stress yourself into an early heart attack. Being silly doesn’t require being offensive, though.

                Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

                Reply

          • ML Says:

            yes, and everybody farts, it is something natural

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

            Reply

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “it’s cute how hypocritical men can be sometimes farting up the house and giggling about it but if I start to talk about something too disgusting it’s hey hey Wait girls aren’t supposed to talk like that!” It’s crude when either sex does it; that some men are crude is no excuse for women to be crude as well. As I said in the quote at top, “women often model the worst, rather than the best, characteristics of men–and then wonder why neither men nor women like them.”

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

        Reply

  9. The Reluctant Monogamist Says:

    Hold on a second. Why is it that we have a column today in which we are asking the question “How Feminine Do Men Want Women to Be” when just days ago we had another column (the one about online dating buzzwords) in which women were chided for having expectations/preferences for men being a certain way (a gentleman, paying for shit, etc. etc)? A woman that “acts like a man” (whatever the hell THAT means) is doing so out of a deep-seated hatred of men? So does it follow then that a man that exhibits traits more commonly associated with women is doing it out of a deep-seated hatred of women? Huh?

    Look, we all have our preferences. You can’t be everything to everyone and if you are just not someone’s cup of tea just drop it and find someone that wants you for you. Sounds trite, I know. But isn’t that better than trying to conform to some notion of how a man or woman is supposed to act?

    I’m not advocating being an asshole. If you suck, you suck and won’t get very far socially no matter how feminine or masculine you’re acting.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 5

    Reply

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Hold on a second. Why is it that we have a column today in which we are asking the question “How Feminine Do Men Want Women to Be” when just days ago we had another column (the one about online dating buzzwords) in which women were chided for having expectations/preferences for men being a certain way (a gentleman, paying for shit, etc. etc)

      You’re equating masculinity with being “a gentleman,” when they’re actually two totally different things. Just like being “Feminine” and being “a lady” are two different things.

      Whether or not a man pays a bill is not indicative of how masculine he is.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

      Reply

      • The Reluctant Monogamist Says:

        I was just using the bill thing as an example because it is a hot topic around here and seems to be a shorthand for both men and women to judge the other’s worthiness. Personally I am NOT a fan of men being expected to pay the bill, even if he paid. I have a job. I want to be considered an equal. I am more than happy to pay for my half.

        “You’re equating masculinity with being “a gentleman,” when they’re actually two totally different things. Just like being “Feminine” and being “a lady” are two different things.” I’m not sure what you mean here, but I just chose that as an example. My overall point was that we are having a discussion about men’s preferences that does not fault men for having preferences. The discussion about women’s preferences from a few columns ago was not met with the same attitude.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 4

        Reply

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          That post wasn’t about preferences. It was about words and phrases men and women use in their profiles that might work against them. Both lists touched on superficial things people look for in the opposite sex.

          If it’s that important to you to have an opportunity to talk about the superficial things men look for, write it up and I’ll post it.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

          Reply

  10. Anonymous Says:

    The struggle with a lot of women is learning to know how to be feminine, yet assertive enough to let men that know that they won’t put up with nonsense. I used to be the overly sweet girl that bended backwards for others. You know what people told me? “You’re too nice. You need to stand up for yourself or people will walk all over you.”

    When I started to set boundaries, I had an ex-boyfriend that told me that I sounded hostile, defensive was being too domineering. For example, he wanted to delete half of my friends on my facebook account. He also didn’t want me to have a facebook. I told him directly, “Having facebook is my choice, and I don’t appreciate being told that I can’t have it.” He got offended, but I didn’t scream at him or swear. I was letting him know that I want my personal choices respected.

    How do you balance between graceful and letting people know that you don’t want your boundaries crossed? If anyone has feedback, I would appreciate it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      You don’t date controlling assholes. That would be a good start. The only reason he was telling you you were being “hostile” is because he’s insecure and he needs to break you in order to be secure in the relationship.

      Most men respect a woman who sets boundaries. Don’t let an experience with an insecure guy taint how you see all men.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

      Reply

      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        Yes, this is the point. It’s not whether “men like feminine women” – that obviously depends on the guy and what things he finds attractive. The question is WHICH men do YOU want to attract, and what’s the best way to get that man. I love a girl in a pants suit. They haunt my fantasies. I think even Hillary’s made an appearance. TMI? Sorry.
        So, a woman in a pants suit will have no trouble getting a guy like me. But, what good does it do her if she doesn’t want “a guy like me.” Maybe she prefers a meathead or a neanderthal who will be type of guy who dictates her facebook activity. Or, you know, a “gentleman.” Mrs. Clinton was never trying to impress the Crotch Rockets of the world, I don’t think. It seems to me she did pretty well for herself, pants suits and all, in terms of getting a lot of what she wants, husband, child, senatorship, etc. I don’t think it’s about femininity as much as just plain old attraction.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 1

        Reply

        • P. Says:

          >>The question is WHICH men do YOU want to attract, and what’s the best way to get that man.

          This point seems to have been lost in this whole discussion. Yes, a guy who only thinks woman who wear skirts are attractive, who wants a girly girl, doesn’t want me. But. I. don’t. want. him. either. Never have, long before I even really knew what I wanted. A guy who is uncomfortable with a strong and independent woman (not as declared in their online dating profile, but in reality) or who makes more than they do or who is on the conservative side of the spectrum or froths at the mouth when he hears the word “feminist” doesn’t want me. Shocker, I know. But. I. don’t. want. him. either.

          Sour grapes? Not at all. We all have our preferences — what we find most attractive; who we want to be in a relationship with. We can’t date everyone, and not everyone in the world, or even our immediate vicinity, wants to date us. So it’s best to focus on making yourself attractive to the people with the personality traits and the looks that you find most attractive, and vice versa.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

          Reply

      • Anonymous Says:

        LMAO, you’re right about the controlling part. That’s why I left him. Like many other women, I had my rose colored glasses on during the romance and courtship phase.

        Yes, I agree that healthy men will respect boundaries. If anyone still has good tips on how to set boundaries in a womanly manner, I’m all ears. You can never stop learning!

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

        Reply

        • LaLa Says:

          I’m what many would consider a girly-girl feminine woman but I always make sure to assert myself and lay down boundaries. Most of the time I just say “I feel uncomfortable doing this.” No explanation required. “I’m uncomfortable going to that place” or “I’m uncomfortable with you telling me to delete fb friends.” If you feel you need to explain, keep it short and direct. Just let your man know you don’t feel comfortable. If he respects you, he will want to make sure you feel comfortable and happy. That’s always worked for me ;)

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

          Reply

    • Saj Says:

      I think you handled yourself well. Have it in your head ahead of time what you won’t tolerate and what your flexible on and just go from there. No need to have heated arguments about it just state what is and isn’t cool. Most guys who are reasonable won’t be able to fault your logic and unless the “assholes” will try to push you too far out of your comfort zone.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

      Reply

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “Most guys who are reasonable won’t be able to fault your logic” In this particular case, no, but I’ve heard some rather ridiculous expectations from women that had absolutely no basis in logic at all. So, folks might want to take the time now to not just list out their expectations but do some thinking about why they have those expectations and whether they’re reasonable.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

        Reply

        • Saj Says:

          It’s about explaining your point of view in a clear matter. This is unreasonable because of A B and C. Many people tend to be unclear with their demands. It’s just do it my way or I’m going to be pissed. That tends to cause resentment and fights.

          If the guy said I’m jealous of the time you spend on Facebook and it makes me feel insecure then you can open that up to debate on why the OP thinks it’s ok and she’s not using it to troll for dates and a compromise can be made. Somethings though you just have to put your foot down and go I’m sorry it bothers you but what your asking is just too much. I’m all for people talking about their expectations early on in a budding relationship.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

          Reply

  11. dimplz Says:

    I think my answer for the question at hand is, I think what makes us each feminine or masculine is the way in which we behave. Do we treat others well? Do we act as responsible people? I don’t think my answer has to do with sartorial choices more than it has to do with are we kind to each other, or do we curse and act like morons in public? I think that’s what makes a woman feminine and a man masculine: maturity. How we dress does convey a message to others, but I think style ties into maturity more than it defines us as men and women. I’m not addressing those on the fringe because I don’t really know those people to form an opinion about them. I’m speaking about people you would normally encounter on a daily basis.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

    Reply

  12. Crotch Rocket Says:

    “The struggle with a lot of women is learning to know how to be feminine, yet assertive enough to let men that know that they won’t put up with nonsense.” That’s simple: communicate (i.e. assert) your expectations and, if they’re not met, walk away.

    “I used to be the overly sweet girl that bended backwards for others. You know what people told me? ‘You’re too nice. You need to stand up for yourself or people will walk all over you.'” Lots of guys have a similar problem; they think they’re being “nice guys” but in reality they’re doormats. That reeks of desperation, which neither sex finds attractive in a mate.

    “When I started to set boundaries, I had an ex-boyfriend that told me that I sounded hostile, defensive was being too domineering. For example, he wanted to delete half of my friends on my facebook account. He also didn’t want me to have a facebook.” That sounds like the prelude to most abuse cases: the man isolates the woman socially so that she becomes dependent on him and has nobody to turn to for help, and then he makes her feel like it’s all her fault so she deserves what he does to her.

    “I didn’t scream at him or swear. I was letting him know that I want my personal choices respected.” Congratulations; you were being assertive. See how easy that was?

    “How do you balance between graceful and letting people know that you don’t want your boundaries crossed?” Tell them what your boundaries are–and then stick to them. This isn’t rocket surgery. There is no reason you can’t do that while being graceful or feminine, either.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Anonymous Says:

      Thanks Crotch-I just wanted to make sure I was doing it the right way. Some passive people can come off as too aggressive when being assertive, because they think that they have to be tough and in your case.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

      Reply

      • Anonymous Says:

        Oops^I meant in your face (not case). I’m willing to bet that some of the domineering and rough women that pick fights or swear may have been former softies that were told to toughen up. What they don’t realize is that you don’t have to be violent or brute just to get someone to respect your boundaries.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

        Reply

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “Some passive people can come off as too aggressive when being assertive, because they think that they have to be tough and in your [face].” That’s because they don’t know what assertiveness really is (probably because they didn’t have good role models), so they overcompensate and become aggressive. That also explains why many passive women are attracted to aggressive men: they think men who are “merely” assertive are being wimps, when in reality it is an (understated) sign of strength and confidence, whereas aggression is an (overstated) sign of weakness and insecurity.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

        Reply

  13. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    I interpreted your argument exactly how you wanted all of us to interpret it. You said NOBODY said dressing femininely involved baring skin…but of course they did….you did. You’ve also posted a number of times about how you dress for dates and showed us how you dress for the kitchen floor, which if it works for you, knock yourself out.

    Which it does. I can wear a dress, maybe even a hip hugging one, or a skirt and high heels. You said that you can’t. So maybe that’s why you have such an issue with this. You specifically pointed out that you wear pants because you feel your legs are like tree trunks. If you could wear a skirt, you would. It’s not a matter of principle that you wear pants. It’s because you feel you don’t have other options. I don’t even know how you’re taking the leap between “wear a skirt or dress” to “show some skin.” Not that showing some skin is a problem on a date.

    (how’s that practicing psychology without a license working out for ya? You’re not crawling into any heads, either)

    P., you lay your whole psyche out bare here. There’s no need to crawl in your head.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

    Reply

    • P. Says:

      Actually, it *is* a matter of principle that I wear pants. When I wear clothes that make me feel uncomfortable, then I’m doing so to please other people.

      I’ve never once known a guy to make a wardrobe choice solely because it would turn a woman on. Because it makes them more comfortable? more attractive? more self-confident? because their girlfriend or mother bought it for them? because a woman already in their life told them it looked good? Those are all reasons I’ve heard. Maybe the guys can chime in here…but none of the straight guys I know have ever made a wardrobe choice just to be sexy. Yet you expect women to, or they’re trying to be men.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 8

      Reply

      • dimplz Says:

        I have to interject here. Does wearing revealing or sexy clothing make women uncomfortable? No. When I wear form-fitting clothing, as you have admitted to, I do feel sexy. How much you reveal is up to your comfort level. But there’s no need to denigrate women who do wear revealing clothing and do feel comfortable in them, because most of being sexy is confidence.Some women feel sexy in jeans and a t-shirt. Wearing sweats makes me uncomfortable. I feel under-dressed and sloppy. You wear what you want. If it works for you, fine.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

        Reply

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “Some women feel sexy in jeans and a t-shirt.” Sexy is more of a mindset or attitude than a look. I’ve known women who could look sexy in a potato sack–and other women that would be unsexy in lingerie. And I’ve seen women go from unsexy to sexy (or vice versa) without changing their clothes at all.

          Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

          Reply

        • P. Says:

          Wearing revealing or sexy clothing does make some women uncomfortable…I’m not one of them, but they’re out there. Dresses usually make me uncomfortable. I hate always having to worry about crossing my legs, they can be cold, and I don’t have great legs. But I do feel sexy in jeans and a t-shirt, or in tight leggings with boots.

          Where is it written that you can only be sexy if you dress a certain way or in a particular item of clothing? I think we should all wear what makes us comfortable, gives us confidence, and allows us to present our most attractive selves to the world. When we do that, it’s like CR says…it could be a potato sack.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3

          Reply

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Again, you’re interpreting the whole conversation incorrectly. Now you’re trying to make it in to some stupid argument about how I suggested women compromise their principles to appeal to a man. I never said that. I said:

        Maybe it’s her voice, that she never raises, or her fashion style. It sounds silly, but things like that seem to counter-act any overt “masculinity” that might be going on. That’s why I never wear pants on a date. Only dresses or skirts.

        Then I said in a comment:

        Clothing totally plays a part in what men consider feminine. We’re not talking about politics or the workplace.We’re talking about dating. And in regards to dating, I think men prefer women wear skirts and dresses.

        And I stand by that statement. I think men – if they had a choice – prefer to see women in dresses and skirts. Is there a part of me that considers what a man would like when I would get ready for dates? YES. I don’t have a problem with that, either. Do i want to turn him on when I get ready to meet him? Absolutely. Do i choose colors I know he likes? YES. It’s a piece of clothing. Do I wear those outfits when I’m not feeling well or having a fat day? No. But if he asked me to put on a specific dress and I wasn’t feeling it, I’d consider doing it. It’s a few hours. Who cares??

        I’ve never once known a guy to make a wardrobe choice solely because it would turn a woman on.

        Who gives a shit??? Why is it so important that every aspect of a date be even steven? Now you’re trying to make it about gender equality in some way. Jesus Christ. What guy wants to be involved with a woman who thinks like THAT? If that’s the case, don’t shave your legs or armpits. See how far that gets you. But you do it, don’t you? Because not only is it uncomfortable for you but because you know most men would find it unattractive if you didn’t. It’s the same thing.

        Since it you say your choice of pants works for you, I don’t understand why you are so bothered by this whole topic. So either you’re just looking to argue for the hell of it, or you fear that this choice of yours doesn’t actually work. Whatever it is, it’s about you. So stop making this such a production.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 6

        Reply

        • dimplz Says:

          I’ve picked out shirts for my bf at the store, usually by colors that I think complement him, and he’s tried them out because I like them, even if he’s not originally crazy about the color. He’s worn sweaters and shirts that I say I like on him. I suspect it’s because people like to be complimented and look nice. There is nothing wrong with that.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

          Reply

        • P. Says:

          Moxie — you’re the one who’s obviously so bothered by the topic. You take my commentary from another post to stir up debate. Then when I respond, you respond to every single thing that I have posted, making it personal and hostile and psychoanalytical as usual. If you don’t want me to have an opinion, maybe you shouldn’t use it to create your blog post and then pile onto every single thing I’ve said about the topic.

          Whether you want to admit it or not, for some of us, dating is about gender equality, and many of the dating traps we discuss here — like who asks who out, or who pays — run right up against changing conceptions of gender equality. I would never date, or enter into a serious relationship with, someone who didn’t believe in gender equality. Does it limit my options? Sure. But no more so than any other deal breaker that any of us invoke in the dating world. For me, it’s essential. It’s what my whole career has been about. It’s fundamental to who I am as a person.

          And you know what? I’m not the only one. I don’t inhabit a world where all the feminists are single women with hairy armpits and multiple cats, female of course, or all the successful women are paired up with parasitic losers. And most of us have found a way to be sexy that makes us feel confident and attractive — and consistent with our personal values.

          For you, maybe it’s different. One deal breaker for you is obviously guys in recovery…wouldn’t be mine, but more power to you. Designguy is right…to say that one of us is more right than the other is silly, which you might realize if you didn’t have this compelling need to prove me wrong with every thing you write,

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 12

          Reply

          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            Sexy to you? Maybe. Sexy to men? Unlikely. See, that’s where the feminists of your ilk (not all feminists, the hypocrites) screw up. You’re all so self-involved and resentful that you never had the success of the other girls. Take a look at your tarty bimbo comment. Angry much, hon, that she can wear clothes you can’t and still get a man? Like I said. the only people calling other women sluts are the phony feministas like you. You all hate that other women were able to succeed where you failed. .

            You all hide behind feminism to justify why no guy sticks around. When the truth is, you’re all incapable of considering anybody but yourselves, and are therefore deemed undesirable to most men. Pass that around at the next Faux Feminist luncheon.

            There were three people quoted in that post to which you refer. But all you can see is your comment. Self. Absorbed. YOU were the one to go off on a tangent about clothes. Nobody else. you. You started that debate. You don’t want anybody disagreeing with YOU then keep your opinions to yourself.

            Your constant self-victimization (another obnoxious trait of the phony feminists) is pathetic and exhausting.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 11

            Reply

            • P. Says:

              Here’s the comment…please read it closely and quote it in context…

              >>>single women who dress like unprofessional tarty bimbos

              I didn’t say they WERE unprofessional tarty bimbos. (Assuming that I would, how could I reach that conclusion based solely on their appearance, not knowing anything about their intelligence or sex life?) I said they DRESSED like unprofessional tarty bimbos. And the unprofessional part is key…if you’re not appropriately dressed for the setting (the workplace, for example) then you’re either completely clueless and oblivious to your environment, or you want men to focus on what you’re wearing instead of your competence. And I said that they were single, so they’re not getting any men that I’m not.

              I also didn’t start the tangent about clothes…CR did, with his comments about Hillary Clinton’s pantsuits. And then you made it about not wearing pants on a date and the fashion choices of TV characters. There was not one word in my original comment about clothes (comment and a half, really, as CR was responding to me). What’s pathetic and exhausting? Dealing with people who cannot read.

              >>>You all hide behind feminism to justify why no guy sticks around.

              So what’s your excuse? Oh right, excessive blogging. That’s not Self. Absorbed. at all.

              Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 8

              Reply

              • dimplz Says:

                “I said they DRESSED like unprofessional tarty bimbos.” How can you expect men to treat women equally when you are already making judgments about your female peers?

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

                Reply

                • P. Says:

                  The truth is, men don’t treat women equally who wear revealing or tight clothing to work. Or, those women have to work even harder to correct the initial impression they give off that being found attractive is more important than being found competent.

                  Even women who don’t dress inappropriately can get caught up it. You might be familiar with this case:

                  http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-06-01/news/is-this-woman-too-hot-to-work-in-a-bank/1/

                  Given that workers can be fired at any time for any reason or no reason, as long as it’s not an illegal reason, you bet I make judgments about changeable behavior that puts their employment at risk, subjects them to harassment, or prevents their advancement to the level of their ability.

                  Dressing professionally — attractively in the way your girlfriend or your mother would tell you you look nice, not in the way that makes your boss want to drag you into the supply closet — makes it more likely that women will be treated equally; i.e., on the merits of their performance. Dressing like a sex kitten makes it less likely that men are going to take you seriously or treat you equally.

                  Which takes us back to my original point…don’t judge how a woman dresses in the professional or political sphere as evidence of her femininity or lack thereof.

                  Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 7

                  Reply

                  • dimplz Says:

                    Then you’re dressing for the men, not for yourself, and you are dressing as a man would, in order to be taken seriously.

                    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

                    Reply

                    • P. Says:

                      Do you ever watch “What Not to Wear?” They have helped a number of women dress attractively, not unprofessionally, and helped them be taken more seriously by their peers and friends.

                      I don’t think Stacy and Clinton dress women to look like men — in fact, they make some frumpy and unfeminine women look very womanly and attractive. And they’ve made some women who dress inappropriately for the workplace into professionals who can be taken seriously.

                      http://tlc.discovery.com/videos/what-not-to-wear-lawyers-fashion-overruled.html

                      completely demonstrates what I’m talking about: “from stripper to movie star.” And I suspect there are very few guys who don’t think she rocks that pant suit.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 6

                    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                      The post wasn’t about how to dress appropriately for work. The post was about what men may or may not consider feminine, their clothing being one point. You are taking the discussion in another direction because your original argument fell apart. Nobody cares about this argument. Nobody. It’s irrelevant.

                      And I suspect there are very few guys who don’t think she rocks that pant suit.

                      She is not you or me or the majority of most women. Her BODY is what they find sexy IN the suit.

                      Back to the original argument – I don’t think most men don’t find women in suits feminine. Professional? Sure. But not feminine. And not attractive. And not sexy. What men deem professional is irrelevant and uninteresting and just a decoy to distract because you’re original argument sucked balls.

                      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 3

                    • dimplz Says:

                      You mean the woman with the hot body? First, let’s dismiss the fact that these shows are fabricated for entertainment purposes. You have taken your argument from Secretary of State Clinton, to Debrahlee Lorenzana and now this woman, someone who has been transformed from wearing skimpy clothing to basically wearing a men’s suit cut for her figure. If you are dressing “for the workplace,” you are dressing for the people in the workplace, because I know you’re not dressing for the literal workplace, which is an inanimate object. Who makes up most of the workplace, especially in your examples: government, banking and law, oh that’s right, men! So you are dressing for MEN.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

                  • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                    Even women who don’t dress inappropriately can get caught up it. You might be familiar with this case:

                    http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-06-01/news/is-this-woman-too-hot-to-work-in-a-bank/1/

                    She was fired from multiple jobs for being incompetent. Had she done her job and not screwed her employers, she probably wouldn’t have been fired. She also was caught having scammed her way in to getting a boob job from some Doctor in Miami. Bad example.

                    But now you’re just getting on another soapbox because your original argument made no sense.

                    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

                    Reply

                    • dimplz Says:

                      I’m sure there were no complaints when she was hired because she was hot. No moron would fire someone for being hot. If anything, having a hot bank employee would draw customers in. She had to have been really incompetent.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

                    • Grace Says:

                      I just read that article. Where does it say she scammed her way into getting a boob job or that she was incompetent?

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

              • Crotch Rocket Says:

                “I also didn’t start the tangent about clothes…CR did, with his comments about Hillary Clinton’s pantsuits.” … which was in response to your question about feminine “appearance”. And I even said in my comment that clothing was a “small part” of being feminine and then went on to the meat of the issue, behavior, which you totally ignored. Instead, you fixated on the clothing issue and how you weren’t unfeminine for wearing pants (because you have body image issues), which is ironic because it just proves me right.

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

                Reply

                • P. Says:

                  Can’t anyone read around here?

                  I did not say I wasn’t unfeminine for wearing pants or that I have body image issues (have you picked up Moxie’s habit of psychoanalyzing everything that someone says?) I said I wasn’t wearing pants because I was trying to be a man.

                  And I said that skirts weren’t flattering on me, and in order to dress appropriately for my body type, I wear pants which tend to be more flattering. (There are a number of skinny women who look better in pants too, because they have bird legs or knobby knees or excessively dry skin.)

                  You don’t have to hate your body or have “issues” to be aware of its dimensions, and to select clothes which flatter it the most. If sexiness is about mindset and attitude, why shouldn’t I (and everyone else) wear the clothes that give me the appropriate mindset and most confident attitude? And let the chips fall where they may at that point…

                  Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 8

                  Reply

                  • dimplz Says:

                    There are many different types of skirts. If you don’t wear them because you don’t feel comfortable, that is a body image issue. I don’t think you should try to distinguish yourself at every turn and act like you don’t have a body image issue when you clearly do. Everyone has something they don’t like about themselves. It makes you just like everyone else, which I suspect you don’t like.
                    “I said I wasn’t wearing pants because I was trying to be a man.” I’m not psychologist, but I believe that is called a Freudian slip.

                    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2

                    Reply

                    • P. Says:

                      There are many different kinds of skirts, and none have fabric between your legs — that’s what makes them a skirt. Did I mention my stout legs? That’s not a body image issue — that’s a physical comfort issue, especially in the summertime. I have to wear either panty hose or bicycle pants underneath them…which is uncomfortable and/or unflattering.

                      That’s probably TMI and none of your business, but I’m really tired of your insults, Dimplz. I don’t have hangups about being in sweats (and believe me, there’s a subset of guys who really like seeing women work up a sweat wearing form-fitting athletic clothing — I think even Moxie would agree with me there, based upon one of her recent posts), so I don’t get where your hangups are so superior to mine.

                      Yes, I wasn’t wearing pants because I was trying to be a man. Where’s the Freudian slip in that? My exact quote was “It’s not because I’m trying to be a man [that I choose to wear pants].” I really don’t know what has happened to reading comprehension around here today….

                      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 1 Thumb down 11

                  • dimplz Says:

                    Your exact quote was what I copied and pasted. It seemed to be a run on sentence, so I just picked up the sentence after what you placed in parentheses. Perhaps you’re having trouble reading? I have no interest in insulting you, but it seems you’re trying to build a scarecrow with all those strawman arguments, and it’s not happening.

                    And FYI, nearly everything you write about in your comments is TMI. It’s not an insult – it’s the truth.

                    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

                    Reply

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “I’ve never once known a guy to make a wardrobe choice solely because it would turn a woman on. Because it makes them … more attractive? … because a woman already in their life told them it looked good? Those are all reasons I’ve heard.” You’re making no sense here. When we wear something to look more attractive, often because a woman in our life told us it makes us look good, it is for the sole purpose of turning women on.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

        Reply

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          Thank you. I meant to add that in my comment. Wanting to look attractive is the same as wanting to turn someone on. They go hand in hand. One is a natural follower of the other. Paula is now trying to make this about forced sexualization of women because her original argument fell flat.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

          Reply

        • P. Says:

          There is wanting to look attractive to everyone you encounter the world, including your relatives, your boss, your same-gender BFF, the salesperson at the store. And there is wanting to look attractive for the very tiny subset of the world population that you want to sleep with. There’s a vast difference in those two populations, which is why you dress differently for a date or going out st night than you do going about your daily life.

          There’s a difference between dressing for the sole purpose of engendering sexual attraction and dressing to be attractive generally speaking. For women, that’s a much greater difference, because, we’re told, men are visual creatures. For men, there’s a lot more congruence between how they dress to generally present themselves as attractive in the world and how they invoke attraction.

          A suit is a good example. A guy who wears a suit and tie out to a club late at night may be considered sexy, because some women are attracted to the power and self-confidence the guy exudes when he wears it. But how many women could wear a business suit to a club and attract any attention (if not negative)?

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 8

          Reply

          • dimplz Says:

            This is a ridiculous argument. Put the same people in scrubs at a nightclub, and both of them would be getting major side-eye. But what if they are coming from work and it’s an after-work event? Places such as these draw people in wearing certain attire. If it’s after work and one doesn’t have time to change, then you work with what you’ve got. If the hair is in a bun, let it loose, put some lip gloss on, and smile. More people turn people off with their facial expressions than they do with what they are wearing, as long as their mode of dress doesn’t deviate too far from the standard.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

            Reply

            • dimplz Says:

              My favorite scene from The Devil Wears Prada:

              Miranda Priestly: [Miranda and some assistants are deciding between two similar belts for an outfit. Andy sniggers because she thinks they look exactly the same] Something funny?
              Andy Sachs: No. No, no. Nothing’s… You know, it’s just that both those belts look exactly the same to me. You know, I’m still learning about all this stuff and, uh…
              Miranda Priestly: ‘This… stuff’? Oh. Okay. I see. You think this has nothing to do with you. You go to your closet and you select… I don’t know… that lumpy blue sweater, for instance because you’re trying to tell the world that you take yourself too seriously to care about what you put on your back. But what you don’t know is that that sweater is not just blue, it’s not turquoise. It’s not lapis. It’s actually cerulean. And you’re also blithely unaware of the fact that in 2002, Oscar de la Renta did a collection of cerulean gowns. And then I think it was Yves Saint Laurent… wasn’t it who showed cerulean military jackets? I think we need a jacket here. And then cerulean quickly showed up in the collections of eight different designers. And then it, uh, filtered down through the department stores and then trickled on down into some tragic Casual Corner where you, no doubt, fished it out of some clearance bin. However, that blue represents millions of dollars and countless jobs and it’s sort of comical how you think that you’ve made a choice that exempts you from the fashion industry when, in fact, you’re wearing the sweater that was selected for you by the people in this room from a pile of stuff.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

              Reply

          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            “There is wanting to look attractive to everyone you encounter the world, … And there is wanting to look attractive for the very tiny subset of the world population that you want to sleep with.” You’ve got it backwards. I don’t pick a woman I want to sleep with and then dress up just for her. When I make an effort in that area, it is to turn on as many women as possible because the more that find me attractive, the more choices I have in who to sleep with.

            “There’s a difference between dressing for the sole purpose of engendering sexual attraction and dressing to be attractive generally speaking.” If so, you’re doing it wrong.

            “For women, that’s a much greater difference, because, we’re told, men are visual creatures.” No, it’s because so many women are insecure and/or unattractive that they overcompensate by dressing/acting aggressively.

            “For men, there’s a lot more congruence between how they dress to generally present themselves as attractive in the world and how they invoke attraction.” That’s because men, for the most part, don’t have a clue about what attracts women–and because our work clothing more obviously reflects our income, which affects how attractive women find us.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

            Reply

        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          I’d go further. Everything men do, I think, is on some level done for the purpose of getting women (or whatever) to have sex with them. How they dress, where they live, what they do, where they work. Is this news?
          Men may fail at this mission but I don’t think you can really deny their intent. So, women are different from men in that, apparently, they are occasionally not looking for sexual gratification? Hm.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

          Reply

  14. P. Says:

    Fine, Moxie, you win. You’re superior because you can wear a hip hugging dress. And I’m obviously miserable. Except that I’m not, despite your constant attempts to paint me as such.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 10

    Reply

  15. NYdesignGuy Says:

    Moxie can you really say that Paula is so far off and your so far on point?

    First off the demographics from a national standpoint are very different from the demographics of NYC. I think that there is a group of men that definitely like the traditional setup of relationships where they play the dominant role and want a woman who plays this submissive “female” role that dresses the part, and intellectually plays the part. However there are no statistics that can accurately say you’re right and she’s wrong. However I’m sure that if one woman is playing the traditional role and another is playing a contemporary more “masculine” role you will attract those who are looking for that. Hence your perspectives can argue about how right you each are because of your ability in attracting men.

    In the end I think this whole post is a little silly. People should be true to themselves and for some that might be more traditional and for other it would be more “modern”. The biggest problems are with people who aren’t comfortable with themselves and are trying to “be” what someone tells them they should be due to society or a blogger saying “this is what appeals to a gender I am not” but listen to me!

    This site is great because it gets so many different perspectives which is true to life. To say that your perspective is more right than Paula sounds silly. I think you hit a lot of things on the head but sometimes and perhaps it’s just for good writing you play the advocate. The only danger is the young girl who reads this and takes your advice and stops being true to herself to do what you told her is “right” in being what men want.

    By the way, I completely prefer a woman who is confident, intellectually stimulating, and sexy by her own right. To me sexy comes in many different flavors some like Paula and some like Moxie. Your both intelligent and sound like women I would date in a heartbeat. However I’m currently with a liberal social worker that I never would’ve thought I’d be with in a million years on paper who challenges me intellectually and is definitely sexy with a crazy mix of femininity and masculinity.

    Happy Thanksgiving everybody

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

    Reply

    • NYdesignGuy Says:

      ugh… I hate not catching my grammatical errors in my quick proofread yet find them so quickly once it’s up.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2

      Reply

    • M Says:

      I want double thumbs up this.

      Also, glad for the interruption to the back and forth that was going on before your comment…yeesh!

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

      Reply

  16. Amy Rose Says:

    They say that when you give as a philanthropist the true nature of giving is to do it anonymously without boasting. I feel the same way about women and how they present themselves professionally and romantically. I knew alot of girls that spent thier 20’s and early 30’s dressing however the hell they wanted as big FU to anyone who didnt like them as is. Major amounts of resentment and anger obviously fueling thier wardrobe choices and lifestyle. But I think there comes a time in a womans life where they come into thier own as a person and need to portray a sense of feminine grace. That truly means focusing on thier beautiful qualities on the inside out, not falling into petty arguments or comparing themselves to others. Women are constantly being bombarded with perceptions about how they are supposed to look and act, most of it driven by advertising. A celebrity is applauded for thier appearance not thier deeds and acts. It is rare to find someone that looks up to someone like a female relative or professional and emulates them based on thier integrity and honor. I met a woman the other week that had on a diamond wedding band. The thing is, she wasnt married, or even engaged. It was her big FU I can buy my own ring display. A very pretty woman, but if you cannot tread softly with yourself how can you expect anyone else to warmn up to you?

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

    Reply

  17. eyeforedtingnyc Says:

    I just wanted to say this article is grammatically incorrect. Therefore, I did not read the rest of it.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 2 Thumb down 10

    Reply

    • Angeline Says:

      Is your nickname supposed to be “eyeforeditingnyc”? If so, it is misspelled. Therefore, I did not read your comment.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

      Reply

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        I so wish I could Star your comment.

        They might not want to read Gawker, Jezebel, The Atlantic, The Frisky or HuffPo either.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

        Reply

  18. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    I just read that article. Where does it say she scammed her way into getting a boob job or that she was incompetent?

    The story made headlines for about a week last year. Google it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

    Reply

  19. LaLa Says:

    Being feminine has much more to do with a woman’s character, personality, and temperament then it does with how she dresses. Although I do think wearing dresses, heels, more “girly” clothes, and having your hair and makeup done help a lot to portray that image. I find that also when I’m in a dress and heels I feel more comfortable, feminine, sexy, and am able to let my personality shine through. You can definitely be feminine in jeans and a teeshirt though (although I think they should be fitted and not be the same kind of jeans/teeshirt that a man would wear). Feminine woman are warm, radiant, nurturing, soft, loving, friendly, playful, easy-going, and calm. Although they’re so many other traits associated with femininity. I think a lot of women think that if they’re not aggressive, dominant, angry, closed-off, and less playful, they will have more power (I’m not talking about at work because sometimes you have to be that way in more masculine fields of work). Relationships/dating should be yin and yang. If one partner is more masculine, the other needs to be more feminine. Whether that plays out the traditional way or not.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      The whole point of the discussion was about what men and women consider feminine and how t=men or women think femininity is expressed. I wear dresses and skirts on dates because I have over masculine qualities and I need to compensate for it. Even the spelling of my first name lends to a more masculine vibe. That’s why i do what I can to accentuate the feminine. When I would play team sports regularly, if there was someone I was interested in, I always brought a change of clothes to change in to after the games. In the summer I brought short sundresses, etc.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

      Reply

      • LaLa Says:

        I agree that wearing dresses/skirts helps immensely to portray a more feminine image, and I even see in some of my friends a difference in personality when they dress girly vs. tomboyish. It’s like they become more softer. I always prefer dresses. I only have a few pairs of jeans/pants in my wardrobe and will wear a dress over pants as much as I can. I just think that if women want to come off more feminine to men, they also need to look at the personality/character traits of a more feminine woman. Masculine qualities are necessary in certain aspects of life like work, sports, and uncomfortable situations, but they don’t belong on dates or in relationships.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

        Reply

Leave a Reply to M

© 2013-2017 And That's Why You're Single All Rights Reserved