How The Fade Can Backfire On You

So, by now, I’m sure you heard about The Break-Up Email Read ‘Round The World.

If you haven’t, read it so you can follow along here.

Now, we’ve debated the whole Fade/Honesty/Diplomacy to death here. But I wanted to discuss this particular situation because I think it involves several issues.

First Issue – The Fade – Obviously, the woman from this letter wasn’t interested. The guy made a few attempts to follow up and get a response. I’m all for The Fade. I get it. I get why we choose to do it. It leads to, well, situations like this. But if someone persistently tries to contact you and doesn’t appear to be getting the hint, then the humane thing to do is to reply and tell them your ex popped back in to the picture or that you’re fresh off a break up and not ready to date. Yes, it should be obvious that the lack of response is a response and that the person you’re trying to contact isn’t interested. But some people don’t get the hint. Or they they can not conceive of the possibility that they might not get what they want. Whatever the case, you’re actually doing all the people they date in the future a service by replying and saying thanks but no thanks. It should also be noted that there are plenty of people who intentionally don’t reply strictly because they get off on making people suffer and squirm. (Note: I do not think that was what the original recipient in this scenario was doing. I think she just was employing The Fade, as we all have done.) Not replying, for some, is a tactic. They see that their lack of response is driving someone mad, and they enjoy watching the person flame out. More alarming to me are the people who willingly engage in exchanges like this and egg the potentially dangerous person on strictly because they take the other person’s rants and insults as some kind of sick compliment. You can almost see the wheels turning in their head and hear them think, “Oh my God. Wait til I show this to my friends/post this to Facebook!” Let me be clear about something….by taking part in and responding to people who use anger and rage as a tactic, you immediately lower yourself to their level. And if you post said exchange on your blog or your Twitter Feed or Facebook, you look like a world class idiot for being so proud of being called nasty names. There is no “winning” in those situations. You’re both assholes.

Second Issue – Privacy - (Note: I’m not sure who the actual recipient of this email was, whether it was a friend of the blogger who originally posted it or what.) Okay. I think anybody who has a pulse and an Internet connection knows that there is no such thing as privacy on the internet anymore. Several months ago, I received a pretty hateful email from a man that I met up with one time. I sent him an email the next morning telling him I didn’t feel we were a match. In response, I received probably the most scathing, rage filled message I had ever read. And I’ve gotten some doozies. He even knew who I was and what I did for a living, making his decision to send such a message even more alarming.  I’ve also had men write me emails that were meant to be apologetic or caring where it was terribly obvious that they were writing the note hoping that it would be posted publicly. Hell, I’ve written posts when I’ve been blinded by my own issues, completely oblivious to the fact that once I hit “Send” I had no control over what comes next, who would read it or how it could affect the other person. I even Re-tweeted this story. That’s what is so dangerous about sending messages like this. Sometimes we just don’t think about the ramifications.You have no idea where that message could end up. I understand the need to want to show friends such email or conversations. But when you do that, you have to be sure that whomever you are telling is not going to take your words and make them public domain. Because once they are out there, they are out there. Next time you feel dicked over, write up your rant and then hit Draft and save it. Don’t send it. Don’t post it. Don’t share it. And one more thing? In a world where cameras and recording devices are now everywhere, be mindful of conversations you hold in public. A few weeks ago, a guy was in a McDonalds and over heard a married couple arguing. Not only did he live tweet the whole argument, but he took photos of the people and posted them on Twitter. Not everybody understands boundaries.

Third Issue – The Shame Game – I don’t get the sense that this guy is dangerous. I do think that he has trouble reading and interpreting social clues and might be, oh, a tad egotistical. Sorry to all you finance guys out there, but this is the second story that came out in two days that depicts men who work in finance as egomaniacs. (The first being this story.) PS? The guy I just mentioned who wrote me that email a few months back? Also a finance guy.) I do think some people have a really difficult time accepting that someone might not want them or that they might not get what they want. Of course, that can lead to some potentially dangerous behavior and situations. I just don’t think this particular guy is dangerous. Obsessive? Yes. But I truly believe that is related to some kind of limitation related to reading social and non-verbal cues. Which makes this public humiliation seem even worse.


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106 Responses to “How The Fade Can Backfire On You”

  1. P. Says:

    Some people are better at handling one-on-one confrontation than others. And some are fine handling it with most people, until they get a sense that a particular person is going to be especially difficult and/or not take it well.

    I have a feeling this guy, if she hadn’t tried to do the Fade, would have sent the same scathing letter if she had replied that she was not interested (especially if it was via email, which he considers an inferior form of communication). He’s obviously oblivious to social cues if he thinks “nice to meet you” means anything other than a polite brushoff, or that making eye contact and nice conversation to get through the date means you’re interested.

    I don’t think this dude was necessarily dangerous, although between looking up her email address, leaving both phone and text messages multiple times, and being so insistent on an apology, you have to wonder what’s next: if he could figure out her home address on the internet (often not that hard to do), would he next be showing up at her doorstep demanding she go out with him again or apologize on the spot? He’s right that you can’t see someone’s body language or tone of voice in an email, so I don’t know that we can conclude that he’s NOT dangerous and that Lauren’s choice of the silent Fade — not feeding the beast — was not the wisest course of action under the circumstances.

    Basically, some people are willing to accept the Fade for what it is, while other people are obviously not going to accept any form of rejection well, so it doesn’t really matter if and how you reply to them. If you send them an email or text indicating your lack of interest, they’re going to still consider that a reason to go off on you (like Moxie’s guy did).

    Rejection happens — get over it! You can’t make someone want you who has decided that they don’t. Have some dignity.

    • Goldie Says:

      I agree that some people will not take any form of rejection well, and that this “Mike” would’ve probably gone off the deep end even if “Lauren” hadn’t done The Fade. Which is why the approach I ended up adopting with online dating is “when in doubt, do not meet”. I’ve canceled first dates a day in advance, just because the guy said or did something that gave off a bad vibe. It doesn’t happen often, but it happens.

      Several years ago, the family I lived next door to got a surprise visit from the adult daughter’s ex-boyfriend, whom she’d met on a Catholic singles website. He came to their house “to reconcile”, shot her and her father to death, then turned the gun on himself. I don’t advocate being paranoid, but some caution when dating online won’t hurt.

    • Howard Says:

      He is self absorbed, but she is exactly the type of person that drives people nuts with internet dating. It’s interesting to see a guy complaining about the fade like this. It’s actually more common to see women complaining of the date going well but never hearing from the guy again.

      Let’s look at what’s going on here. When a guy pulls this type of fade after the first date, it typically means that the woman physically does not turn him on. When a woman pulls this type of move, it typically means she has too many candidates, and she has to quickly weed out a few.

      I typically tell people not to invest too much financially and emotionally into the first date. Everyone seems to be playing the numbers game, probably because of the invention of internet dating and that we are no longer living in small villages or towns with a small available pool of potential significant others. These first date scenarios have become a feeling out process as to how much one really wants to invest at all levels. I would strongly advise this guy to get with the new realities of dating.

      • P. Says:

        >>>When a guy pulls this type of fade after the first date, it typically means that the woman physically does not turn him on. When a woman pulls this type of move, it typically means she has too many candidates, and she has to quickly weed out a few.

        For someone who doesn’t want people to generalize or stereotype by gender, you certainly have no difficulty doing it here.

        There is no typical to this situation. It could mean that the man physically does not turn her on. Or that his personality does not turn her on (which often means more than his physical appearance). Or his behavior made her very uncomfortable (which is almost certainly what happened here). Or that he revealed something that is a dealbreaker for her: he wants kids/she doesn’t or vice versa; he travels all the time; he’s a smoker or heavy drinker…you name it…so there’s no use in further wasting time.

        Of the people I know, it is the men who are much more likely to be dating multiple people at once, while the women are much more likely to date one person at a time. That’s even true among the online daters, at least in my experience. There might be a handful of single women who are juggling multiple men while they figure out who’s going to make the best offer, but most of the rest are struggling to find enough interested guys to date.

  2. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    “But I truly believe that is related to some kind of limitation related to reading social and non-verbal cues. Which makes this public humiliation seem even worse.”

    I agree that public humiliation will make things worse but this guy seems seriously deranged to me. This is not mere lack of social graces.

    With respect to “finance” again, you are painting with a very broad brush and seeing patterns that aren’t there. He manages his family’s money. That is not a job in “finance” as apparently the woman pointed out to him.

    Look at it this way. If you hang out in Pittsburgh and date assholes, that doesn’t mean all steelworkers are assholes. NYC is a “finance” town. A lot of people can say they work in finance. Less than before, of course, but financial services is a major industry here. These prejudices do you no good.

  3. dimplz Says:

    Self-absorbed. He and a mirror will be very happy together someday.

  4. Heather Says:

    Between being 30 minutes late for their date, not replying to his messages and allowing for his email to be posted on the internet, “Lauren” doesn’t look much better than “Mike.”

    • Brad Says:

      I’m with you Heather. The girl in this scenario is just plain rude. Rude people sometimes get away with it (to wallflowers), sometimes get rebuked (by assertive people), and sometimes get crazy emails.

      Waaaahhhh… a graceless girl was finally rude to an unstable guy and got a crazy email. I hope they both end up together.

  5. Goldie Says:

    I read this letter on Gawker yesterday and my first thought was, Wow, this is quite a long-winded way to say “I have Aspergers”. (Disclaimer, I’m a mother of a teenage Aspie, have worked in IT all my life, and probably had a touch of the stuff myself as a kid/teen. I love the Aspies in my life, because they’re pretty cool — I just know one when I see one.)

    Agree with Moxie, guys like this one (that my dating pool is abundant with) are the reason why I always try to spell things out. Golden rule and all that. Though it’s hard to second-guess a guy like that. As hard as I tried to be nice and informative, I’ve gotten a few nasty emails myself, some of them from people I never met.

    The guy is not dangerous, but he may inadvertently do something that will put his email’s recipient in a bad situation. I say that because, he found her email address that she had not given to him. Who knows what may pop into his socially-inept head next, especially now that he’s probably mad at his letter being posted on every news and gossip site for the world to see? (Heck, I know I would be!) BTW, did you guys notice how his email’s recipient is not the one that posted the letter? She’d apparently forwarded it to a friend, and the friend unleashed it upon the world… not even having bothered to edit her “darling friend”‘s name out of it. Gawd. With friends like this…. !

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      I say that because, he found her email address that she had not given to him

      While it’s poor form to contact anyone by any other manner other than the ones they provide…hello. It’s 2011.It was probably on her LinkdIn page or something like that. She gave him her number, which to me is far more private than an email address.

      She’d apparently forwarded it to a friend, and the friend unleashed it upon the world… not even having bothered to edit her “darling friend”‘s name out of it. Gawd. With friends like this…. !

      Well, it’s not clear who the email was intended for or if someone merely forwarded the email to the blogger. The connection between the blogger and recipient is not clear to me. But if that is her friend, and she didn’t change her friend’s name, then it’s a matter of time before she’s outed.

  6. offensivedan Says:

    Just reading this post makes me realize even more what a pain dating is and what a “bad” investment it is for some of us. Anyway, on to the topic at hand:

    Man, if I was this guy, who wrote the email, I would be embarrassed. Lets face it, “fading” sucks at whatever stage you are in dating. It’s a form of rejection and it can occur online or offline. But, this guy had seen this girl only once and, so, should have moved on when there was no response. (It was not a good idea tolook up her email address.) In fact, that’s the easiest time to do it. At least, they hadn’t gone on a couple of more dates when she pulled the fade.

    Now, could this guy just have been frustrated by being taken advantage by women who faded on him? Sure. I’ve gone out with women and spent $ on them only to see them fade out. It’s frustrating and does piss a guy off. Women should just stop going out with guys they are not truly interested in or just pay their share.

    How do you handle a fade? At some point, you just have to say, as Moxie has written in the past, “ok, no problem” and move on. As I have told my friends in the past: If you send a woman a text, email or call and she does not respond that shoud be it. Trust me, she got your text, email and phone number. After that, it’s your decision if you want to send a follow-up a week later.

  7. Steve Says:

    While this guy is borderline nuts and am not supporting his behavior, I see where he is coming from. I think women should have a little more courtesy when turning someone down, particularly if he bought her the meal. If not after 1 attempted contact, surely after 2 or 3. She could say thanks for the meal, give him a sincere compliment, and just say that it wasn’t a match or not enough chemistry. Putting myself in the women’s shoes if someone bought me an expensive meal and tried to contact me a few times and I didn’t even respond, it would seem like an insult, and that’s what it feels like to not even get a response. It would be one thing if the guy was rude, scary looking or some other extreme, but in my case anyway I think I’m a polite, reasonable looking guy, I would at least expect a little common courtesy. Since I’ve started internet dating earlier this year, I have received only 1 rejection with a message as noted above, which was well appreciated. The rest have all been no responses, I guess that is the norm these days.

    • offensivedan Says:


      I see your point.. But some women suffer from “entitlement” syndrome.

      On a sidenote. that’s typical of online dating. Be prepared to send 50 messages and maybe get 2-3 responses back. Of those you may get 2 meet-ups. Plus, most people online are just looking to hook-up, amusement or a free meal. If you get more than two (2) dates from a person online or get laid consider yourself lucky. Also, I question the quality of women who online date moreso than the ones I meet offline.

      • Steve Says:

        I do get responses from my profile, while not great, better than 2-3/50. (Although if you are getting that % and getting lays out of it, I’d much rather be in your position). It’s just that my meetings never lead anywhere. If there are more single women than men in NYC, and it is about 2 to 1 M/F ratio on sites like match as I’ve calculated, then it makes more sense to go offline to find them. There are attractive women all over the streets of New York, most of whom probably don’t even use those sites. It’s just a matter of going out and making the effort to find them instead of through dating websites where the women ride the endless merry go round trying to find Mr. Perfect.

  8. dimplz Says:

    I think both men and woman suffer from entitlement syndrome. He bought her a meal therefore he owes her? Ok, good luck with that logic. That’s just another form of entitlement. She put her time in as well, and where does it say that he paid for dinner? Perhaps I missed it in the email, it’s possible, since it’s very long.

    You all need to grow up. The sooner you accept that no one owes anyone anything, especially when only dating, the easier dating will become. Should she have responded? Well, it may have been polite. However, no one is under any obligation to do anything. So just get over it, and move on to the next person. One date, one loss, she obviously is not the one, no need to waste countless hours ruminating over it.

    • Howard Says:

      “No one owes anyone anything” That is the mantra of the world today that has led to the disconect human beings have for each other. And it is total and utter rubbish. We all stand on the shoulders of someone else. First our parents, then our extended family, teachers, doctors, employers, coaches, friends, coworkers, mentors etc. That selfish mantra is what led to people being mugged and no one lifting a finger to protect them.

      If a man is attempting to rape you, should all the bystanders say it’s none of their business and they don’t owe that woman anything? While this situation is not as dramatic as that, the same logic applies. If you know someone has invested in you and he or she is expecting some type of yeah or nay, it’s the least one can do, to give him or her. Understand very clearly if you go on a date with someone else, you are encouraging expectations, and any dernial of this is silly at best.

      The amusing part of this is that when the reverse happens, then the woman is pissed off. I personally expect the worst and never invest myself too emotionally into these first date scenarios. I advise most people to do the same, but it still does not make it right when someone rudely ignores someone, he or she led on. All it takes is a simple one line text.

      • Howard Says:

        To further add, if she suffered food poisoning right after the meal, did he owe it to her to get her to medical attention? Did he owe it her to make sure she got home safely after the date? Did he owe it to her to make sure all his plans for the date were sound?

      • dimplz Says:

        Yes, that is my mantra. So is “life is full of pain.” Deal with it.

        That you would compare first world problems with rape is rubbish.

        • dimplz Says:

          Btw, my exact quote was “The sooner you accept that no one owes anyone anything, especially when only dating, the easier dating will become.” DATING. Not RAPING. OK?

          • Howard Says:

            Hopefully the next time you go on a date that goes terribly wrong, you feel the same way!

            • dimplz Says:

              What the fuck are you talking about? You make no sense.

            • dimplz Says:

              Are we talking about rape again Howard? If I am ever available for another date, I will notify you and you can tell your pals at the sex offender registry.

              • Howard Says:

                How the hell do we get to the sex offender registry. This is the classic villanizing that seems to pass for logic these days. I certainly don’t wish you anything bad but we all have dates from hell, and it has nothing to do with rape. Your over dramatizing of a point used to establish the need for feeling of community among humans is despicable and your attempt to somehow paint me as “lesser than” is nothing more than an ad hominen attack of the worst kind.

                • Howard Says:

                  And if you feel no one owes anyone anything then you obviously don’t believe in religon or ethics or morality because that is the centerpiece of all three. So please stop trying to justify you selfish rant about no one owing anyone anything with your spurious ad hominen attacks.

  9. Vox Says:

    Wow, again with the dinner whore accusations? We don’t know how much the dinner bill was, we don’t know who picked up the check, and I did not see the guy complain about having spent money on her. Since he carefully listed everything that made him feel entitled to a response (eye contact, playing with hair), “I paid for dinner” would have appeared on the list. Give it a break, guys.

    Back to the post. Last year I received a long, angry, accusatory rant from Mr. WorstSexEver in which he preemptively dumped me. (I was relieved, even though the email was over the top.) I don’t remember ever receiving emails like that in pre-facebook, pre-twitter days. I wonder if some people are just so used to typing out their every thought they don’t see when they have crossed the line. I also wonder if people are living their lives as though they are on some dopey “reality” tv show – it’s as though they think that every emotional thought that enters their head must be acted on. There are no cameras, so there are no producers ready to force the other person to acknowledge their drama. In the end, rants only make you look crazy.

    I do hope this woman “Lauren” is outed. I would like to read about their date from her perspective. (I really hate it when people are late, so that is a strike against her.)

  10. nathan Says:

    That e-mail – was after a single date? Seriously, I couldn’t read it all. It just made me cringe thinking of how much energy and projection went into writing that.

    I don’t think Lauren ends up looking too good in the scenario either, but I can’t imagine coming with a response that would satisfy someone like Mike. Perhaps dropping a few lines about how you’re not compatible or whatever is fair, but given the length of that letter, the guy might still think he’s being ignored.

  11. WO7 Says:

    I would like to preface my comment by saying that this guy’s email was ridiculously dramatic/clueless/unsmooth. I couldn’t even finish reading it, because it was so annoying/pathetic.

    However, this woman’s actions directly led to this happening. Completely ignoring someone is BEYOND rude. I don’t care if it’s only been one date. You should have the common courtesy to respond to someone when they try to contact you. If you don’t want to talk on the phone, then text or email them back. If you can’t be bothered to text or email someone, then you’re a selfish douchebag. If you no longer wish to respond to them, then have the common courtesy to tell them so and why. Once you do this, you then have the right to completely ignore any further contact without being a selfish douchebag.

    I know it’s easier to ignore someone then to give them bad news and risk some potential backlash, but try thinking about it from their point of view.,.

    When you’re ignoring a guy, their first thought is “Maybe she didn’t get the email/text/voicemail that I sent.” Technology is glitchy, and it’s not in a man’s best interest to always assume the worst and rush to “move on”. We all know that women wait for men to pursue. So if she doesn’t receive that email/text/voicemail, then she’s not going to contact the man to see what’s up. So the man would (should) inevitably try again (at least once more). After this point, some men may give up. Others might try a different mode of communication to make sure that the person is not just having trouble with the one form they previously tried once/twice. After this point, most men realize they’re being ignored. After giving the benefit of the doubt for up to 3 contact attempts this makes the man feel like an idiot/sucker. Some men choose to allow the woman to disrespect them in this way, and some men will persist in attempting to get a response until they get one. The latter is what the guy in the email was doing. He was simply trying to force a response. And frankly, why shouldn’t you expect him to? He deserved a response in the first place, let alone after he sent x number of emails/texts/voicemails to you.

    So if you get an email like this after ignoring someone; know that you have no one to blame but yourself.

    If you’re such a coward that you have to try to pull a complete ignore fade on everyone you don’t want to see again, then at least have the courtesy to tell them what’s up if they continue to “not get the hint”.

    • dimplz Says:

      We don’t know if she brushed him off after the date and he didn’t get the hint. She said, “Nice to meet you.” They didn’t make future plans, and he seemed very intent on proving her interest due to the fact that she played with her hair, and thinks they should have a serious relationship because they both like classical music, so even if she had told him this plainly, he would have debated her point-by-point because he had already convinced himself of her interest, when it clearly was not the case. Whether she sensed that or not, we don’t know, but we do know that he based her interest on fairly shaky ground.

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “he would have debated her point-by-point because he had already convinced himself of her interest” And this is exactly why I started doing the Fade in the first place: when I told women I wasn’t interested, they argued with me and tried to change my mind. Sorry, no. If someone rejects you, you should accept it, thank them for being honest, learn what you can (if anything) from it and move on.

    • Vox Says:

      I agree! And if you think it stings to have someone not return your call/text after a dinner date, imagine what it feels like to be blown off after sleeping with a guy. The Three Date Fuck and Chuck happens all of the time, and it really sucks, but we deal with it. I don’t understand how men have no problem with this, yet are up in arms over being blown off after merely sharing a meal with someone. I’d bet your response would be different if the topic were a crazy email sent by a woman because the man who said, “I’ll call you” after sex pulled the fade.

      • WO7 Says:

        So you’re saying that these guys will sleep with a woman on date 3 and then never respond to a text/email/call again?

        I have never heard of such a thing, and I question whether this really happens. Most guys will avoid burning a bridge with someone they have slept with. If for nothing else, then to keep the option open for the future. A guy may no longer take initiative and/or contact the woman first, but he will rarely completely ignore a woman.

        I am fine with a woman not going out with me again, or dead ending all of my conversation attempts. That, to me, is a reasonable use of the fade.

        “Hey, how’s it going?”, “Good”, “What are you up to this weekend?”, “Going out with some friends.”, “What are you up to next week?”, “Don’t know yet.”

        When someone dead ends the conversation like that it’s clear they’re not interested, but at least they’re responding to you and treating you like a human being.

        My issue is with being completely ignored. I just don’t think that anyone should completely ignore someone they went on a date with unless they have told them they are not interested and would rather not maintain communication with them.

        I think that women consider the equivalent of this if a guy stops texting, emailing, or calling them; but that doesn’t mean the man wouldn’t respond to them if they had texted, emailed, or called the man.

        To me, it’s about maintaining a certain level of civility.

        • P. Says:

          >>>I think that women consider the equivalent of this if a guy stops texting, emailing, or calling them; but that doesn’t mean the man wouldn’t respond to them if they had texted, emailed, or called the man.

          If the man was doing all or most of the initiating during the time period that led up to Third Date Sex, and then does no further initiating post-sex, that’s a pretty clear sign they’re intending to Fade. Most guys, like you said, don’t want to burn the bridge, and if they wanted to have sex again, they would be in touch to ensure it happened again as quickly as possible. Why would anyone make it more awkward and difficult by chasing after them, so they can stroke their ego by saying “yeah, that chick really wanted me. I stopped calling her, but she wouldn’t let it go.”

          I don’t think it’s appropriate after you’ve gone out multiple times or slept together (unless it was under conditions where both parties knew it was only intended to be a one-night stand), but it has happened enough that I refuse to feel badly about it after only one date where I ended the date giving no signs of interest. I’m sorry, but making eye contact does not count.

          The guy may very well have a mental disability. However, that does not mean that I am going to date someone who behaves that way, or give them any ability to further interact with me in a irrational and potentially unstable fashion.

          • WO7 Says:

            >>> Most guys, like you said, don’t want to burn the bridge, and if they wanted to have sex again, they would be in touch to ensure it happened again as quickly as possible.

            This is not a true statement. Sometimes things come up and now isn’t the right time for a relationship, but perhaps the future is. So maybe the time they want to have sex again is sometime in the future. If they burn the bridge, then there will never be that time again. Just because a guy isn’t continuing to pursue right now doesn’t mean he won’t pursue again in the future.

            I am also not saying that this person should respond to this crazy rant email. But in the email, he said he was ignored multiple times before he sent said crazy rant email. If she had never ignored him he probably would have never sent a crazy email. Doesn’t mean he was a good guy to date, or not without whatever emotional baggage lead to the eventual creation of the email; but her actions brought that out.

            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              “Sometimes things come up and now isn’t the right time for a relationship, but perhaps the future is.” If I see potential with a woman, regardless of whatever else might be going on in my life, I’m going to make sure she knows it and do what I can to make things work. When I was young, I made that mistake several times–and by the time I was “ready” to pursue something, they had moved on to some other guy. Now? The “right time” is right now. It might not be easy, but if she’s the right person, there’s way I’m going to let her get away.

              “If she had never ignored him he probably would have never sent a crazy email.” I disagree. If she had rejected him, she probably would have gotten nearly the same response. Crazy is crazy.

        • Vox Says:

          Yes, some men completely ignore a women after they’ve fucked them. Ignored phone calls/texts, running in the opposite direction if you accidentally meet again in public… It happens all the time. I am astounded that you don’t believe this and that you are claiming to have never heard of such a thing.

          • WO7 Says:

            Some men? Sure. But I would not consider this to be more than a small minority of the dating men out there. However, it is VERY common for a woman who has dated and/or slept with a man to decide she’s done with him and completely ignore all attempts he makes to contact her without telling him she will do so..

            I can honestly say that I have NEVER completely ignored someone, nor have any of my male friends that I know of.

            The only possible situation where I can even picture the thought crossing my mind is one where I slept with a woman and was completely embarrassed at having done so.

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          So you’re saying that these guys will sleep with a woman on date 3 and then never respond to a text/email/call again?

          There are some guys who do this intentionally. But they either have to be really good at faking interest for a woman to fall for it, or the woman has to be really delusional/desperate. I’d guess that in most cases, the guy just decided after the sex that the woman either didn’t do it for him in bed or wasn’t interested in pursuing anything. Accusing the guy of intentionally pumping and dumping is just a way for many women to deal with the rejection.

          • Vox Says:

            The vast majority of the time it has *nothing* to do with faking interest. (And come on Moxie, you don’t need to “guess” about this topic… you know about this first hand as almost all of us here do.) Nor do I believe men intentionally think, “Alright, I’m gonna bang this chick and disappear!” The fact is, fucking a man does not mean he owes you anything, and that includes a explanation. He wasn’t interested in pursuing anything more in the first place, but he will take the easy lay on the way out the door. You can’t blame a guy for taking what is offered, but you also can’t expect anything from a stranger – and any man you fuck after a couple of dates IS a stranger.

            For the record, when I wrote “I agree!” to W07, I was using sarcasm as a device to make him re-examine his post. If women can suck it up after being blown off, so can men when they are blown off a lot earlier in the process.

            • WO7 Says:

              I don’t have a problem with a woman deciding she’s not interested in me and not wanting to meet again. I don’t have a problem with her not coming straight out and telling me so. Because honestly, maybe she doesn’t want to see me again now, but might want to in the future. Telling someone you don’t makes it final, and I don’t expect anyone to burn bridges for themselves.

              This has nothing to do with completely ignoring someone. Which is what the person did to the guy before he sent her his crazy email.

              Everyone deserves to not be ignored.

          • Goldie Says:

            I agree that in most cases, people don’t do that on purpose. At least in my age/social group, if Three-Date Fuck and Chuck happens to you “all the time”, I’d say you’re doing something wrong. With 20-something guys, maybe it’s more frequent.

            In my case, I was guilt-tripped into dates 1 and 2. I hadn’t even wanted to meet, and, when I’d come out for the first date after all, I was pretty close to getting into my car and leaving, as he was 20 minutes late. He was reading and answering texts during the date. Mid-date, a young girl walked up to us and asked him “what are you doing tonight”, to which he answered “Don’t know yet, I’ll text ya when I get out of here”… and things got progressively more weird from there! Every single man I’ve told this story to, asks me why the hell there was a second date after this… and the only answer I can give is “I don’t know”! Bottom line, I brought the whole thing upon myself by ignoring a huge number of red flags. I dated so many people this year, I lost count, and this one was definitely an exception. Everyone else, no matter what issues they had, at least tried to treat me with as much decency as they could. So, no, I wouldn’t say that the pump and dump thing is all that rampant in my experience. (Not to be confused with the already-mentioned cases when the sex, or the timing of it, was so bad that one side doesn’t want to see the other again. But even then, some communication takes place afterwards and people normally remain on civil, friendly terms.)

            • Regina Tingles Says:

              I hear ya. I totally would have gone on the second date too. Something so edgy about a guy that shows up late and texts during the date. Why no third date, though?

              • Goldie Says:

                Whaddaya mean no third date? There was, too, a third date! About an hour after I got off work, I got a text to come over asap. Drove an hour to his place, took him out for food (dude actually flirted with our waitress), paid for the food, dropped him off at his place, stopped by for a tour of his apartment and some action (? – eh, well, technically you can call it that), came back home at one AM and never saw him again.

                Fun times.

                I think I was fascinated by the surrealism of it all. You don’t see this kind of stuff every day with middle-aged white-collar professionals. We’re boring and predictable, with a few exceptions.

                • Goldie Says:

                  Seriously, when you’re watching Fast Times at Ridgemont High and Mike Damone reminds you of a guy you dated, and you’re both in your 40s… that’s a dead giveaway that you should not have gone out with the guy. Dead giveaway.

                • Crotch Rocket Says:

                  I’m pretty sure Regina’s comment was sarcasm. Given how this guy acted on the first date, you shouldn’t have even gone on a second one with him–and walking out on him in the middle of the first date would have been understandable.

                  Why did you persist in subjecting yourself to a man who treated you so badly? Was he really so rich or attractive that you thought it was worth it? Or do you think so little of yourself that you thought you deserved it? And I doubt this was the first time, either.

                  • Goldie Says:

                    No shit Regina’s comment was sarcasm, look at her name LOL

                    We all make mistakes. This was mine. There was just one; I am a fast learner. I stuck around for personal reasons I’d mentioned on the other thread. Cannot say any more than that on an open blog.

      • Howard Says:

        So a woman putting out on date three is equivalent to him spending money. Nice logic, And that’s why you are single!

        Guys rarely ignore a woman completely. What some women have to come to grips with is that they really are terrible in bed and most of that has to do with being too self focussed. Guys lose the impetus to constantly innitiate communication. And trust me, when a guy is terrible in bed, a woman also loses interest.

    • offensivedan Says:

      Ha, WO7 is back. I still recall his legendary duel with Moxie on here that went on for days.

      Anyway, WO7 forget it. Women believe they have the right to behave anyway they want–again, entitlement. Most women will do the fade out and not even bother to thank you for the dinner or drinks.They assume it is part of the deal for them coming out to spend some time with you. That’s why I spend nothing on women nowadays. Last night I went out with some lady and I spent $4.00 on her.

      You would think taking someone out on your dime would engender some courtesy. Anyway, WO7, I no longer care about womens’ behavior and just don’t deal with it. And, like I said, I don’t spend $ on women anymore–just me and the family. Women and sex take up too much energy, focus and time when you can be doing something constructive. I don’t analyze or force shit anymore. And you know what? I’m freakin’ happy.

      • sara Says:

        i know im late in the game here, but i just figured id add: personally all these entitled bitches need to gtfo the dating pool. im happily with someone right now but for those of us who not only do not expect to be showered with gifts and ‘affectionate gestures’ for simply being there, but are actually put off balance by it, have to retrain men to see us as more than money pits with nice racks, or something they have to buy their way into.

        he owes you nothing but his time, and even then only if he said he was going to give it to you. a person owes another person no more than they have agreed to give, along with comon decency and whatnot. He says he wants to take you out, then expect to be paid for. if you know his financial situation prohibits frequent trips to fogo de ciao (five star brazillian place here) then dont whine and beg and get huffy when you dont get to go. running a man into the ground because you feel if he isnt willing to spend every dime on you than he isnt worth it is just as wrong as nabing his wallet on the way out of the bedroom. I wish people would see that.

  12. VD Joe Says:

    I just give the girl crabs, then wait for her to call me.

    Works 100% of the time.

  13. JS Says:

    The fade after one date that did not include any intimate physical contact is no big deal in my opinion. However, I was recently faded on by a guy I have been intimate with 8-9 times. I think (for reasons too numerous to list) he felt that I wanted a relationship more than he did or more quickly than he did. I never said that I wanted that with him specifically b/c I had my own reservations / hesitations about him but I can see where he could have gotten that vibe.

    However, what upsets me is not that he no longer wishes to see me but that I was never told that. I had to conclude it from his absence and minimal response to a “feeler” txt I sent afer not hearing from him for a few days. I had my reservations about him…I was still evaluating if we were a good fit or not. However, if I had concluded that we weren’t a good match, I would have at least should him the courtesy of a phone call, face-to-face or at least a text saying, “hey listen, I think you’re a great guy, but I dont think we’re a good fit and that we should move on and date other people.” I always try so hard to treat others with kindness and respect and this man just discarded me like a used tissue. It feels awful not to be at least treated like a human being worthy of common courtesy. I just dont understand how a man can be intimate with a woman, several times, share a bed overnight a number of times and txt her almost everyday and then vanish without even saying “hey it’s been real but I’m moving on.”

    Worst of all (and I realize i made a huge mistake in this) he lives in my apt building. I thought that that fact at least would cause him to treat me with more respect than if he met me in some BS anonymous way (online, a bar, etc)

    Can any man explain to me why men cant just treat women with some common courtesy?

    • Steve Says:

      While I understand what you’re saying and a 1st date fade is not a big deal, I wish I had your problem of getting the fade after 8 or 9 lays.

      • JS Says:

        lol – yeah, but as a guy do you really feel used and dehumanized when a girl sleeps with you a few times? or do you feel like “awesome, i got laid! woohoo!”???

        Because as a girl …i love being physical with a man I like but i dont want to feel like i am just a hole in the mattress. I want to feel like at the very least they value me as a human being and dont think “wow, that was a great hole, but her as a person….? I wouldnt spit on her if she was on fire.”

        and when a man discards me like that, i feel like he thinks i am a worthless waste of perfectly good blood that could as easily be sitting in a blood bank as running through my veins and that he thinks I should not even bother existing in the first place except as an orifice for him to fill.

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “i feel like he thinks i am a worthless waste of perfectly good blood … and that he thinks I should not even bother existing in the first place except as an orifice for him to fill.” Wow. Perhaps he does think that, but I think you’ve got some serious self-esteem issues if that’s where your head automatically goes if a guy Fades on you.

          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            Yeah, seriously. And the Oscar goes to…..

            • offensivedan Says:

              You guys need to calm down. I think she is just expressing how she feels–disappointment. Some of you ladies on here or so bitter and angry that you pounce an anyone who is honest and have had your emotions die a slow and painful death. . JS your description was helpful.

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      And what exactly did he response to your “feeler” text say?

      People aren’t obligated to give you an engraved invitation or monologue about why they don’t feel like seeing you again. His lack of response was his response. Sitting around wondering why “men don’t show women courtesy” is just a waste of time.He was as courteous as he could be. Sometimes that has to be enough.

      • JS Says:

        I said “hey stranger how are you?” Him: Fine ” how are you” i told him good but been busy sorry i’ve been MIA (trying to call attention to the fact that we hadnt spoken but not blame him and also say I have a phone I could have txted you days ago too). I asked if he had his class that night or if it was over. he said he was still in class. i said i was going to the museum with a friend. he said have fun….That was a week ago…this is a man who was txting me daily or at least every other day.

        He was not courtesy at all. By not letting me know that we would not be seeing each other anymore especially after how many times we slept together, he was treating me in a de-humanizing way, as if I am not even important enough as another human being to say “hey you’re nice but you’re not for me.” No one has any etiquette or manners anymore. It is ridiculous. In the feeler text he could have even been like…’yeah i’m busy too, the next few weeks are going to be really crazy for me, i dont think i’ll be able to see you again anytime soon…whatever, you say something…you dont just treat people you’ve been intimate with as if they are disposable. It’s dispicable behavior.

        And if you really dont think that people (men and women) deserve common courtesy, it makes me question your level of self-respect that you condone being used and discarded.

        • dimplz Says:

          I’m not going to say this to be mean, but what if he had said, “Hey you were fun and all, but I’m really tired of you and don’t think we should be seeing each other anymore.” Still a response, albeit a blunt one. Would you have been ok with that since you would have had a definite answer?

          • JS Says:

            you’re not being mean at all…i understand the reason behind your question. Yes, I would be fine with it. And i can say that from personal experience from men who have ended things in this manner before. (see below what I wrote to Goldie….I have been friends with a guy for 2 yrs who told me he was moving on to another) and i’m friends with most of my ex-boyfriends, at least casually, if not really good friends, been to their weddings, friends with their girlfriends, wives, i’ve even helped exes with their relationship and i set up one guy with his girlfriend, etc) I actually take head-on rejection really well. but being discarded, treated like an object…i dont handle that well. i’ve been upset and crying for days.

            • dimplz Says:

              I think people (men and women) take for granted that sex really changes things for some of us. I have always erred on the side of caution, but none of us get guarantees in life. The truth is, we get hurt no matter what.

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          I see what you did there. But…no.

          this is a man who was txting me daily or at least every other day.

          He was also a man that you weren’t dating. You were just having sex. The whole reason you’re whining and obsessing over this is because you deluded yourself in to believing this was something more than a relationship of convenience. Which is why he bailed in the first place. You got attached, he left. End of story. He didn’t suddenly become a thoughtless jerk. He always was a thoughtless jerk. You just chose to ignore that.

          And if you really dont think that people (men and women) deserve common courtesy, it makes me question your level of self-respect that you condone being used and discarded.

          As a grown woman, I know the difference between a man that I’m dating and a man that I’m just having sex with. In a situation where I willingly agree to have sex with a man with no clear expectations or boundaries, I understand that I can not expect much, if any, “courtesy.” Which is why I try to choose those men with whom I have casual sex relationships with very carefully. And if I choose poorly, and they don’t give me the “proper courtesy” then equal fault lies with me for not choosing someone of better quality. So rather than use this thread to ponder why men are just so lacking in courtesy, how about you use this time to figure out why you slept with this guy in the first place.

          • JS Says:

            but we did “go out” we werent just sleeping together and he’d txt me every Monday to say “have fun in class” (i take improv). A guy who is just sleeping with you isnt going to remember every Monday to wish you a fun time in your class. that seems way more relationship-y and invested that just booty calls. He could have just told me what he wanted (only fun in the sack) and I would have managed my expectations accordingly, instead he led me on. And EVEN when it is JUST physical, people should just have good manners. It’s never okay to be rude. Yes, we all fail in being polite 100% of the time but it’s never acceptable to be rude especially when you’ve been personal/physically involved with someone.

            • Vox Says:

              “A guy who is just sleeping with you isnt going to remember every Monday to wish you a fun time in your class. that seems way more relationship-y and invested that just booty calls.”

              He would if he is an viewed it as an FWB situation (as opposed to your merely being a Fuck Buddy). Your friends do know about your class, don’t they?

              If I were you, involved in a non-exclusive sexual relationship with someone I enjoyably chatted with every day, I too would get attached. I too would read his words/actions as being “relationship-y” even though they may not be. My interpretation of his words and actions would have been wrong, just as your interpretations are wrong. He probably genuinely liked you but was not interested in being in a relationship, so he bailed once he knew you wanted more. I think he’s a jackass for not at least giving you a proper goodbye, but you aren’t in a relationship so he owes you nothing. Believe me, I don’t like it anymore than you, so that’s why I just stopped the FWB thing altogether several years ago. (Fuck buddies are another matter, and are quite easy in my opinion.)

              • Goldie Says:

                “He would if he is an viewed it as an FWB situation (as opposed to your merely being a Fuck Buddy)”

                True, but an FWB probably wouldn’t fade on her (he is, after all, a friend, although with benefits).

                I don’t get why this guy did it. Seeing as they live in the same apartment building, well let’s just say his elevator rides are going to get very awkward. I do not get this self-destructive behavior. If he was in a position where he could never run into her again, then I’d sort of understand. As it is… illogical.

                • Vox Says:

                  A friendship does not imply permanency. I can speak quite fondly of a few friends from summer camp in 1984, people with whom I exchanged numbers yet we never spoke again. I still cherish the time I spent with them (sounds too cheesy, but I can’t think of a better way to put it) even though we all faded on each other. I still view those as friendships.

                  • Goldie Says:

                    Yeah, but if you guys found each other again today, you’d spend some time chatting and catching up. I found my friends from math camp in 1983 a few years ago, and we all traded emails happily for at least a year. Not sure if the same would happen if a woman and a guy that did the fade on her would meet again. Hence, not friends. FTR, I chat with my former FWBs all the time :)

            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              “A guy who is just sleeping with you isnt going to remember every Monday to wish you a fun time in your class. that seems way more relationship-y and invested that just booty calls.” Bzzt. It’s called maintenance: he invested a little effort now and then so that you’d be willing and ready to fuck him next time he was in the mood. When the maintenance required to keep you willing became more than he was willing to do, or when he lost interested in fucking you, he stopped.

              “He could have just told me what he wanted (only fun in the sack) and I would have managed my expectations accordingly,” Perhaps, though I’ll only believe that if you provide evidence of that strategy actually working for a guy in your past. Most women, however, will not react to that well, and it is not unreasonable for guys to choose the strategy with the best odds of success, i.e. lying.

              “it’s never acceptable to be rude” I seriously doubt this was the first time you ever observed him to be rude, either to you or to someone else. Such behavior rarely comes out of the blue. You knew, on some level, what he was and you decided to fuck him anyway. That’s on you.

            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              Ok. Then if he was showing that kind of interest and he suddenly pulled back, then you had to have done something to freak him out. If you’re sitting on this blog and hijacking a thread, negating every argument, then I’m pretty sure you did something to scare this guy off. So if you’re going to monopolize these comments, you’re going to have to start giving the whole story and not just share the parts that make him look like an asshole

          • JS Says:

            PS – and it’s funny because men act this way and then wonder why women are suspicious of most men and they wonder why women want to hold off sleeping with them until after they get to know them or are serious or exclusive or border-line exclusive. When men act like this (and all women have been through this one or one million times)….how can men still wonder why we dont trust them…. hmm big shocking mystery.

            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              Ugh. Please. So he didn’t spell it out to you. His actions where clear. You’re choosing to focus on what he didn’t say as opposed to what his actions did say. People who do this simply thrive off of feeling wounded. It’s just self-indulgent nonsense.

            • Selena Says:

              PS – and it’s funny because men act this way and then wonder why women are suspicious of most men and they wonder why women want to hold off sleeping with them until after they get to know them or are serious or exclusive or border-line exclusive.

              Well yes, this is why many women opt not to sleep with men until after they get to know them, or until a relationship has actually been established. Having sex does not a relationship make – you appear to know this. Yet, your posts sound like you thought you had a relationship with this neighbor. If you did feel that, why didn’t you just call/go see him when you hadn’t heard from him after a day or so? Because you knew you didn’t really have a relationship with him? Sending out “a feeler text” seems to indicate that.

              I’m sorry you’re hurting JS. I do think the decent thing would have been for him to break it off with you in person when he realized he no longer wanted to continue. BUT… if you are going to get so crushed when a casual thing ends… you might be better off joining the camp of women who wait until they are actually in a relationship before they have sex. Just something for you to think about. I hope you start feeling better soon.

        • Howard Says:

          JS get over it. At least you got a weak response. The guy in the post got none. People hate doing two things.
          1. Telling people “Stop crowding me.”
          2. Telling people “You are not that good in bed.”

    • Goldie Says:

      Sorry to hear this, it sucks. My worst dating experience this year was being faded on after just one half-assed lay (that was totally his idea), and yeah, I had the same feeling: wow, turns out I’m nothing to him. Probably have been nothing to him all along. But what can you do? It’s the MO out there these days. I just concluded that, any time I go out with a guy — no matter if it’s a coffee date, a dinner, or dinner and breakfast at his place — if we have not already agreed on being exclusive, chances are I’ll never see him again. This approach helped me remain friends with a lot of people I dated afterwards. Oddly enough, seems that they don’t want to fade on you if they know that you’re prepared for it, and that it won’t be a big deal for you if they do. Guess it takes all the fun out of fading.

      • JS Says:

        Thanks Goldie. yeah, i’ve had a guy call me after 5 dates (we never got beyond kissing) and he was like “listen, obviously, we’re not exclusive and i’ve been seeing other people in addition to you and i’ve really clicked with one of them so i cant date you anymore.” My response: “thank you for telling me. i understand. maybe we can still hang out as friends.” His response: “yeah, thanks you are a such a cool girl.”…..We have been friends for 2 years now and I consider him one of my closest friends. If more men were like him, the world would be better for those men (i.e., they get new friends and friendship is a plus to anyone’s life) and the world would be better for the rest of us.

        If anyone had the “right” to fade without feeling guilty, it’s a guy who never got physical with the girl and yet he had the decency to call me and let me down easily. So the men who get to sleep with a girl w/o a committment definitely should at least show that kind of consideration given that they got the male goal of minimum input, maximum output.

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          What people “should” do is irrelevant since you can’t control them; all that matters is what they actually do and how you respond to it.

      • JS Says:


        you said: “This approach helped me remain friends with a lot of people I dated afterwards. Oddly enough, seems that they don’t want to fade on you if they know that you’re prepared for it, and that it won’t be a big deal for you if they do. Guess it takes all the fun out of fading.”

        so I need your advice then… do you specifically “let them know you’re ok with the Fade” so that they dont in fact Fade on you?

        • Goldie Says:

          Oh my, I don’t even remember the details anymore, been exclusive for the last two months or so… I guess it’s mostly in the attitude. They can smell it on you. Like Cesar Millan says, instead of being dominant or submissive, you have to be assertive. Of course, Cesar was talking about training dogs, but I find that it applies just as well to dating (oh the irony).

          I actually had this conversation with a guy once, where I explicitly told him this dating philosophy of mine. But he was an interesting, creative type and we had, um, interesting conversations. I don’t recommend having this talk with any random guy out there.

          • JS Says:

            lol – thanks…not a conversation one could have just out of the blue “and by the way, if you pull a Houdini, it’s not more than anything I already expect from you.” Haha, it would probably make most guys disappear right then and there.

            speaking of dog trainers……funny enough, years ago, i read this short book (like you could read it in 20 mins) “How to Make Your Man Behave in 21 Days or Less Using the Secrets of Professional Dog Trainers” It’s part funny, part realistic (sad to say) but very funny.

          • Goldie Says:

            Have to add another comment, because my reading comprehension sucks today… I didn’t change my attitude “so they wouldn’t, in fact, fade on me”, that was a pleasant surprise that may or may not occur again if and when I’m out dating again. I changed it for my own benefit – so I wouldn’t freak out when they do, in fact, fade on me. I mean, I didn’t like my reaction to being faded on like that — I was mildly depressed (first time this ever happened to me), I couldn’t eat, I couldn’t carry normal conversations with people, I neglected my herb garden and my mint got out of its pot and planted itself all over the backyard… I was not in control of myself. And I didn’t like that. I cannot allow some random middle-aged player to do this to me again. So, no, whatever I’ve been doing is not fade-proof.

        • SJ Says:

          I know I may be looking at this as a simpleton, but it sure seems to me that if both men and women had the COURAGE to actually DO what their conscience actually tells them they should do – be honest and kind – a great many of these hurt feelings would be avoided.

          I remember being told by my CO, upon the eve of having to communicate some very difficult and painful news to young sailor who reported to me, “This will be hard. It will hurt, it will be awkward, and it will be embarrassing for both of you. Raw feelings will be on display. You will both remember it for a long time. But how you handle this will matter more than you know now, to both of you, for longer than you can imagine. You don’t have to like it, and you shouldn’t, but you do have to do it.”

          Again, I may be simpleton, and maybe the world today just can’t handle this kind of approach. Technology has made everyone feel more anonymous and it seems easier to “hide”. But I just think that being “nice” is missing in many ways, not necessarily because people are mean, but because they are cowards and don’t want to own the pain they will cause. They take the easy way out.

          Of course I am assuming the people in question actually have a conscience, and some ethical bearing and integrity in the first place. Maybe that’s the underlying problem.

          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            “actually DO what their conscience actually tells them” You’re assuming they actually have a conscience. Many people don’t: their life is all about them and what others can do for them. They have no empathy; that would require acknowledging other people matter and have their own needs/wants. (Some can fake caring about others to get what they want, but it’s a carefully crafted shell; nothing penetrates.) There’re millions of these sociopaths out there, and you’ll never change them, so all you can learn how to do is not date them.

            • sj Says:

              Concur. I addressed this in the end. There are always going to be scum, and it’s equally divided by gender. That said, I want to believe the number of honest to God scumbags is low relative to the rest of us. Yes, they exist, and yes stay clear of them.

              But there sure seem to be a lot more people with hurt feelings out here than caused by the small number of scum. I point to well meaning cowardice as the more prevalent issue.

              • Crotch Rocket Says:

                “there sure seem to be a lot more people with hurt feelings out here than caused by the small number of scum.” The scum are very, very busy–and they’re the ones everyone remembers, not the dozen nice ones that came before and after.

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “I just concluded that, any time I go out with a guy … if we have not already agreed on being exclusive, chances are I’ll never see him again.” That’s probably a tad on the cynical side, but it’ll keep you from being disappointed/hurt much.

        “seems that they don’t want to fade on you if they know that you’re prepared for it, and that it won’t be a big deal for you if they do. Guess it takes all the fun out of fading.” That may be the sociopath’s reaction, and there are a lot of them out there, but I suspect the more common case is that having such low expectations makes you come off as low-maintenance and non-clingy, which are both things that attract men. Ironically, by assuming the guy won’t stick around, you increase the odds that he will.

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “why men cant just treat women with some common courtesy?” Some men do, some men don’t. Just like some women do and some women don’t. It’s not a gender thing; it’s an asshole thing.

      Rather than waste your time trying to figure out why some people are assholes, I suggest you ask why you choose to date those assholes rather than people who are not assholes.

  14. LaLa Says:

    Well apparently this guy wrote another email to a girl after meeting her for a total of 45 seconds years before:

    • Goldie Says:

      Holy cow! I take my initial diagnosis of Aspergers back, this guy is nuts.

      The most puzzling part of this letter, to me, is: “In fact, I once dated a woman”. How in the world???

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Nope. The repetitive nature of his statements and the focus on the minutiae are exactly why I think this guy is autistic. That could also explain why his primary source of income is investing his parents money. This guy obviously has difficulty functioning in certain environments. I have a family member with Aspberger’s and he does the same thing in conversations. Admittedly, that’s probably why I’m sympathizing for the guy, maybe a little bit more than I should. And now I’ll go cry and call my sister.

        • Goldie Says:

          I hear ya. I have a 18yo son with AS and he could’ve totally written the first letter (well, maybe not sent it). I actually thought of showing it to him, so he’d know not to write one, if he’s ever in this situation.

          I think, though, that he wouldn’t have written the second letter (the one Mike wrote after talking to a woman for 45 seconds), just because it defies logical reasoning, and logical reasoning is what my Aspie kid is all about.

  15. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    The only thing more alarming to me than Mike’s email is the number of people here that kinda, sorta understand where he’s coming from. You are all stalkers. Seriously.

    Here’s my advice to you and I do this myself so I can vouch that it works. When you go on a date and she looks at you, or plays with her hair, or allows you to buy her drinks or whatever it is that makes you think it went well, do nothing. Let her contact you to thank you. If she doesn’t contact you and you still want to pursue, send one email. If she doesn’t respond, you are done. Yes, it may be an internet glitch. Maybe you and she would have worked out if only the power didn’t go out at that precise moment. Move on with your life. It was one date. There will be others.

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Sorry, but this guy is either suffers from mild autism or is just painfully, horribly lonely. Or both. He sent some painfully awkward emails. I’ve received and sent ones that are probably equally cringe-worthy and verbose. This just feels like making fun of someone mentally challenged. It’s cruel.

      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        Except, I’m not making fun of him. My comment was directed to those here who “co-sign” on his email.

        The fact that Mike’s email has been disseminated after the fact by some blogger to embarrass him doesn’t justify or explain his inappropriate behavior.

    • P. Says:

      Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. If the guy comes across as this deranged in an email, what do you think he was like in person? And now that the second email has come out, it’s clear that even a 45-second interaction can prompt that kind of irrational response, so it’s impossible to imagine what she could have done differently to keep from triggering that kind of reaction.

      But yet we blame her because she should have continued interacting with a guy who doesn’t respond normally and rationally to the social cues that we all should understand if we have dated even a little bit?

      Don’t even call it the Fade…the natural response, when you encounter someone who has deluded himself into thinking you are interested in a relationship with him, or who will not take no for an answer, is to cease all contact, and not give them any further reasons upon which to manufacture hope. (This guy will manufacture it from hair playing and eye contact — next it would be “you promptly responded to my texts, so I know that we share the same values” or “I disagree that you didn’t feel any chemistry because it would have been irrational for you to go out with me.”)

    • Selena Says:

      I suspect “Mike” may have come across as off kilter in person as he does in email – hence a possible reason “Lauren” declined to respond to any of his communication attempts.

      I like DMN’s suggestion of not basing a woman’s interest on how well you thought the date went – wait and see if she contacts you to say thank you and go from there. She should if she has good manners and would like to get together again.

      This isn’t new you know, it’s standard etiquette many simply seem to ignore.

      • Angeline Says:

        I too am startled that people are taking this fellow’s side in this, when his basis for their relationship potential (she touched her hair, A LOT) was so sketchy, and his response is so over the top by normal standards. FYI, more and more overtures to “force” a response would just about guarantee there would never be one from me. And if I’d had this much info about me plucked off the internet, I’d be doing some serious damage control after receiving this email.

        When I read this I also assumed he had come across in person the way he does in email. If you have no personal experience with autism or Aspergers, it can leave you scratching your head and exhausted, to downright alarmed. Many people with either autism or Asperger’s can’t carry two opposing thoughts or outlooks – no empathy for the other person, or that they have a set of opinions and experiences and beliefs that are just as valid. There is the position/opinion they have, and the wrong one. And whatever the point is, whether it’s how coffee tastes best or politics or the weather, there is no give and take, no conversation, no changing the subject! just an onslaught until the other person caves. You can leave that conversation and think you’ve moved on to something else, and 15 minutes later they will still be making points about the last topic. The sad thing is, they aren’t trying to be aggressive or confrontational, they often don’t realize how they come across, and have no way to change it if they could. Even if you have had some contact with it, it takes a large amount of mental gymnastics, and a huge amount of empathy, to get through a single conversation. If you haven’t had any contact with it, it can come off as creepy, alarming, overwhelming.

        I’d have cut and run too, because if the conversation during their date went like this email, there would have been NOTHING I could have come up with to convince him we weren’t destined to be together. However, I would have tried to pay for at least my half of the date, so at least that wouldn’t have been an issue.

        I think you can have sympathy for people who suffer from either condition, and still not want to deal with it in a relationship.

        • P. Says:

          I’m not even convinced he paid for her dinner. This is what he said:

          I spent time, effort, and money meeting you for dinner.

          That would be true regardless if he paid for hers, even if they went dutch. I agree with the others who pointed out that if he had paid for her dinner, he would have made a much bigger deal of it, given the amount of weight he attached to every other single thing that happened on their date.

          And for the folks bashing her for showing up late…we also have no idea why that happened. Maybe her train broke down, or she got hung up at work, or any of a number of reasons…but this is the kind of guy who would conveniently ignore that she called or texted to let him know, and/or profusely apologized upon her arrival. Not every person who is late for a date is fundamentally rude and inconsiderate.

          A lot more men than women are on the autism spectrum, so I doubt very many guys have gone out with someone like this, but if you’ve ever had to deal with this kind of behavior by someone who is romantically interested in you, I doubt you would have the same level of sympathy for him.

  16. Teresa Says:

    Here’s the thing we are not entitled to anything not in dating not in any other facet of our lives! Sure it would be nice if both men and women treated each other with politeness, respect etc. but the reality is all lot of time we are going treat each other less than kindly.
    After reading the second email it’s should be clear to everyone that Mike has serious issues someone mentioned Aspergers Narcisstic Personality Disorder comes to mind also.

  17. myself Says:

    I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve had guys argue with me about why I’m not interested, how can I not be, bla bla bla….so I don’t give the courtesy anymore. If a guy doesn’t get an email from me saying I enjoyed myself etc like DMN (I think?) Suggested, then it’s safe to say I’m not interested. I don’t want to have to explain or respond to 8 million emails on the subject. Because honestly….it’s done to me all the time. What’s good for the goose, and dammit, if I’m told not interested I pursue it no further. Some people are just plain clueless or creepy.

  18. D Says:

    This guy obviously has Asperger’s, but in a small way I can see where he’s coming from. After getting rejected I’ve occasionally wanted to make a list of why we’d be so awesome together. But what this guy needs to realize is it’s pointless. Attraction is not based on your resume, but on how you make someone feel.

  19. Kurt Says:

    The guy who didn’t get the hint must have been young and inexperienced. As I get older, I simply stop putting forth effort if I get the feeling that the woman isn’t interested, which is what the guy at issue should have done.

  20. Selena Says:

    I’m really liking your “Just The Tip” feature. :)

  21. Charlie Says:

    “But if someone persistently tries to contact you and doesn’t appear to be getting the hint, then the humane thing to do is to reply and tell them your ex popped back in to the picture or that you’re fresh off a break up and not ready to date.”

    Ok, the first little white lie I can go with because it’s at least a clear “this is over”, but the second you’re better off not saying. Depending on the person & their attraction level you’ll just encourage them to wait until you’re ready, and that’ll lead to more drama. I was that moron a couple years back and DAMN did it hurt more when I figured out I was being lied to. And yeah, drama followed.

    Either way you’re probably best off just telling them the softened truth that you’re just not into them that way. No need for specifics, just a firm “this is over” will do the job. After that only the real nutbars of either sex should pitch a fit.

    As for privacy, I had heard about a website for nothing but breakup emails a couple years back. I can’t remember if names were censored out or not. Sounded really creepy to me.

    • P. Says:

      I was that moron a couple years back and DAMN did it hurt more when I figured out I was being lied to. And yeah, drama followed.

      Yep, I’ve been in that situation too — took me six months of pretty intense time spent together waiting for him to be ready, to figure out just what a moron I was and what a liar he was — and will never believe that lie again. Turns out he was all too ready to date…someone else.

      I thought it made sense, because I’ve been in situations where I wasn’t ready to date and could see myself telling someone else that. But then I also realized that even if I wasn’t ready to date, and disclosing that + staying out of the dating pool was what I SHOULD HAVE done in my own best interest, that I never actually DID that if I liked the person — I forged ahead and gave it a shot anyway.

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