Do You Set Men Up To Fail?

I was reading a blog this morning that was critiquing the email messages that men had sent her in response to her Match profile. While one or two were egregiously…awkward….the rest seemed perfectly fine. To me at least. Nothing terribly offensive or weird. Most of them were customized to address a couple of the blogger’s hobbies that she mentioned in her profile.

Somebody said in the comments recently that they believed that women only used online dating sites so they could see how many emails they got. They were on there for attention and nothing more. I’m starting to think there’s some truth to that. (For the record, men do the exact same thing. I just don’t see many blogs out there posting all the messages they get and mocking the women who contact them.)

I’ve received my share of “Hey sexy” messages. I think the weirdest was when someone emailed me and asked, “So…did you get laid this weekend?” I can’t tell if they’re trying to offend the recipient. Or if they’re just that socially clueless. I’m leaning toward the latter. I found the more creative a guy got in his introductory email, the more turned off I was. Geez. Don’t try so hard!

No, seriously. Don’t try so hard. Because it seems like the harder you try, the less likely you are to get a response. Let’s face it. If all you write is “hello” and nothing else, and your picture catches their attention, they don’t care that you didn’t mention how you, too, have a passport filled with stamps from across the globe or love Bob Dylan.

I honestly don’t think men care what the woman says in that first email. They’re just happy she’s making the first move.

So then why do women care so much? What is so bad about a simple one-liner that says hello and that they want to talk further?

Do I think men have a better chance of getting a response if they customize their message? Yes. Will they get more “quality leads” by writing a personalized email? No. At least I don’t think so. I honestly believe that the women who require a customized message are actually the ones who sit back and wait for the man to do something that proves to them that he is disingenuous or shady.

I understand why so many women like their messages to be tailored to their profile. I do. I used to feel the same way. I was so afraid that the guy emailing me wasn’t really interested in me. But you know what? My profile wasn’t me. I’m me. The three dimensional person is me. Those 400 words and awesome hobbies and cute lil’ story about how I lived in a convent when I first moved to NYC (true story) are not me. Guys really weren’t getting to know the real me by reading my profile.

The personalized email step is another test. How much the man writes is, in their minds, directly proportionate to how interested they are in the woman. Here’s the thing…do you know how effortless it is for some men to be charming? Whipping together 2 lines that mention your love of ice skating and gourmet coffee isn’t some Quantico-taught technique. It means nothing. Yet we convince ourselves that it does rather than just take a leap of faith. We are so afraid to fail that we’d rather not try at all. Why?

I think a lot of women live by the “pay attention to his actions” mantra. Which, of course, we hear from our friends. His actions are not always indicative of his desires of intentions. In fact, I’d say it’s a 50/50 split between whether he’s sincere or not.

How can one expect a casual sex thing to evolve into a relationship, when you havent done any activities that would enable you to get to know each other in such a way that would determine compatibility? If you got to know the guy, OP, you may not even like him. Dinner then sex tells you nothing. Cocktails and sex tells you nothing – hell, we all can get along and have fun after a few drinks. And whats nit to like about dinner? The true test is doing something without alcohol, without watching a movie, just the two of you talking so you can get to know each other. A walk on the beach or through the park or a shopping mall, a Museum, etc. if he isn’t suggesting such a thing, he’s not interested in getting to know you. Dinner + sex with nothing else = casual situation. It really is true – no one progresses to a committee relationship based on a series of dinners and sexual episodes. There must be more. – Vox

The worst thing in the world to you apparenlty is to have sex with someone that doesn’t really love and adore you. So, you’ve devised these tests to ensure at any cost that that will never happen. As I said, I think it’s effective the same way staying inside ensures you will never get hit by a bus. The better solution is to exercise good judgment while taking risks, and to accept the fact that you won’t always win . A lot of people here can’t do that. No advice is the world will change that. People need good judgment. To develop good judgment, you need to have experience. And, clearly, people lack experience. And, they’re worried about “too much experience” because of pain or STDs or god or whatever, but, as a result, they will never develop good judgment. In my opinion, that’s what’s going on most of the time here. Your rules and tests are merely a useful substitute for exercising good judgment. As I said, if you can’t figure out how not to get hit by a bus, better just to stay inside. – DMN


Like DMN said, these tests that we use to prevent us from getting played are actually the very reason why we keep getting played or why we can’t seem to get past a handful of dates with someone. Like I said the other day, most relationships don’t play out the way we envisioned that they would. Rarely do they look exactly like we imagined. Holding on to an idea of how someone “should” act, an idea passed on to you by friends or developed after frequent poor decision making, is only going to hold you back. This is why so many people struggle with getting past the first few dates. They’ve never stuck it out long enough, or curbed their impulses long enough, to see things through. Only with prolonged exposure and interaction do we develop and hone our instincts, temper our impulses,  and learn to form  more accurate judgments.

I don’t understand this false sense of pride some people get from setting other people up to fail. That’s what these tests are all about. We want that person to fail. That way we don’t have to make ourselves vulnerable.

We’d rather be able to say that we have few to no marks on our record than actually have a relationship.






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52 Responses to “Do You Set Men Up To Fail?”

  1. P. Says:

    We set people up to fail when we require that they do something that they are either incapable of doing or unwilling to do. But what that comes down to is the reasonableness of the request, and whether you’re able to find someone to honor it. Or whether the person who will honor it is doing so for the reasons that the test is designed to measure.

    In online dating, women typically have a wide variety of men from which to choose, so requiring that a guy send a personalized contact that shows he’s read her profile, rather than “hey baby, wanna make a sexy time?” does set up certain guys to fail, who either can’t string together a coherent introductory paragraph or won’t put out the effort for a particular woman in whom he’s either not that interested or thinks she’s playing games. Is that OK? Probably, if you find enough other guys who will…or probably not if you’re getting guys who write seductively well, but have no substance, or if you’re screening out guys who are not willing to jump through hoops, but would still be good healthy relationship partners.

    On a first date, some women may require that a guy initiate it, plan interesting activities, and pay for it all, to apparently show how much he’s interested (or how much he’s willing to pay to woo her.) That certainly sets up certain guys to fail, who either can’t shell out sufficient cash, or who are worried that she’s a golddigger. Is that OK? Probably, if you find enough other guys who will (which some here claim they have)…or probably not if it leaves you with those who are capable of shelling out the cash, but still have no interest beyond getting laid as a return for their investment, or who are not willing to jump through hoops, but would still be good healthy relationship partners.

    In a relationship, some women may require that a man spend a certain amount of time with them, become exclusive before having sex or demonstrate other so-called indicia of “commitment” on her timetable. Is that OK? Probably, if you find enough a guy who will (which some here claim they have)…or probably not if it leaves you with those who are capable of jumping through whatever hoops are required, but still are not fully committed to the relationship, or who are not willing to jump through hoops, but would still be good healthy relationship partners.

    • P. Says:

      Am I completely blocked now? I thought we were all doing well at avoiding conflict and personalization, but my last several messages which were not personally targeted at all, and first in the thread, are being held up.

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        A number of people’s comments are now moderated. When they get approved depend on what I’m doing when the comment comes in and how I want the flow of the comments to go.

        Some comments don’t get approved at all. Either they are repetitive or combative, or they are just attempts to redirect the focus of the thread on to the poster.

        As I’ve said numerous times, comment count does not matter to me. The threads of late have become a convoluted mess, with a lot of attention seekers trying to generate controversy or humblebrag. Those comments add no value to the thread, which is why they aren’t going to be approved.

    • Howard Says:

      I always flash back to the Matrix movie where Cypher prefers the make believe world in the matrix than reality where he is eating gruel, thus betraying all his companions. In some ways, we are all a little that way. We prefer to hear and be presented with a ephemeral idealized picture of things. Unfortunately our culture programs girls worse than boys as they grow up with fairy tales and princess treatment and avoidance of anything that could be perceived as nasty or unladylike. We end up with a need to over-sanitize when we would all perish on this planet without organisms like bacteria and fungi.

      So people want bullshit in these first encounters. A guy has a view in his head, what a sexy woman is supposed to look like and say, so if a beautiful smart woman does not present herself in that packaging , she gets overlooked. Similarly the players are champions at these tests women put out there, and pass them all the time so women end up with them rather than the good guy that may pass some tests but may be uncool some times, nervous some times, not dress as well some times, etc.

      We may not want to deal with it, but we do get more reality based, as we get older. I always love having conversations with really older women typically over 70. I always tell them that they should be talking to the younger women and trying to save them the heartache. Their response is typically “It goes in one ear and comes out the other ear” or “youth is wasted on the young”.

      The other issue, is people saying they want something , but really not knowing what they want. What they say they want is what they think they should say, given the false image they have of themselves or maybe to match the requirements of some popular image they have temporarily accepted to show they are with it or trendy.

      This is especially true of the women saying at an online profile that they want a well thought out message from a man. My advice to men is to never go along with that nonsense; maybe write a sentence on two to demonstrate you read her profile and perceive some compatibilty. Maybe write another sentence or two that pretty much expresses you, in whatever way that you like to present yourself and that’s as much as you put in those messages. If a guy gets past five sentences, it stinks of neediness, or a personality where he talks too much. And you guessed it. The very same woman who is asking for the well thought out message really hates the guy who talks too much.

      • Joey Giraud Says:

        Not to disagree with your larger point; seems to me that five sentences is well thought out compared to what a lot of guys would write.

  2. joe-f Says:

    I have to read a woman’s profile to hear the tone of her words. If she is a princess, a party animal or anything else I don’t think would work, I pass. Then it is very easy to a write short customized response. because it takes as much time as writing a response on this blog. If a woman needs more than what I wrote to respond then she is putting up way too high of barrier that I have no desire to break down to find the real woman inside.

    I am open to finding love. I hope the woman I am writing to is also open to finding love. If you are open to love, why would you put up so many barriers? Perhaps you are not ready now and that is ok.

    I have dated a few women and have been in several failed relationships. I think a reason why my current relationship is successful is because both my girlfriend and I are honest about our feelings, takes down barriers that stand between us and tell each other often that we feel grateful to find each other in this crazy city filled with more singles than couples.

  3. Crotch Rocket Says:

    “men do the exact same thing.” I dunno. There are a handful of guys who sit back and enjoy the adulation, just like there are some guys who collect numbers to prove they can but never call, but I think that’s a small fraction of men. Most of us, IMHO, aren’t all that interested in attention for its own sake; at minimum, we want some ass out of it, so we’re going to respond to those emails and call those numbers to get it.

    “I can’t tell if they’re trying to offend the recipient. Or if they’re just that socially clueless.” Hanlon’s Razor says “never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.” That outlook has served me well in life.

    “How much the man writes is, in their minds, directly proportionate to how interested they …” I hope you meant in the woman’s mind, not the man’s. The theory is wrong either way, but for different reasons.

    “do you know how effortless it is for some men to be charming?” OTOH, do you know how incredibly difficult it is for others–especially with a complete stranger whose reaction we can’t read? Either way, though, what does it matter if he’s “charming”? That is completely irrelevant to whether a healthy, happy relationship is possible.

    “His actions are not always indicative of his desires of intentions.” Not always, but most of the time they are. Everyone makes mistakes or has bad days, though, so you can’t miss the forest for the trees. You have to look at what a person’s actions on average mean in terms of their personal values, character, interest level, etc.

    What DMN said was great, and I agree with it all, but the proper quote is “Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.” –Mulla Nasrudin, ca. 1208

    • Joey Giraud Says:

      True in general, except this: “Either way, though, what does it matter if he’s “charming”? That is completely irrelevant to whether a healthy, happy relationship is possible.

      Not irrelevant at all. Charming is a sign of social smarts. Social smarts vastly improve chances for the HHR.

  4. vox. Says:

    It’s funny how you and DMN think that evaluating how you spend time with a person you are dating constitutes a test. There’s a big difference between having cocktails followed by sex and doing something non cocktail related, in terms of getting to know someone. That’s not a test, it’s simply a matter
    Of opening ones eyes to what is happening. I say go forth and fuck if you want, but drinking and sex doesn’t lead to a relationship. That’s reality. Yes there are exceptions, but those are far and few between. Any woman who is in a casual sexual relationship can very easily see the potential (or lack thereof) by examining how time is spent with the guy. This isn’t anything particularly insightful that I am saying here. If she is having a good time tossing back a few drinks then shagging the guy, go for it. Just understand it won’t turn into anything more. Obviously many women would do well to at least try it this way, judging from the number of women who write in about wishing their dinner/drinks fuck buddy would commit. He won’t, because he isn’t interested in getting to know you, hence booze and sex is the only thing on the table.

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      It’s funny how you and DMN think that evaluating how you spend time with a person you are dating constitutes a test.

      “Evaluation” is just another word for “test.” It still implies that you’re using pre-determined, but possibly faulty or biased, criteria to gauge whether or not someone is of a certain skill level or proficiency. Which is fine as long as the criteria being used to determine the other person’s merits is of actual value and relates to the overall situation.

      • vox. Says:

        No, a test is something one deliberately sets up. An evaluation need not be deliberate, it’s merely looking at the circumstance and deciding if it is right for you. You should be evaluating your dates, Moxie. They surely are evaluating you. We are all being evaluated, and should evaluate in return. Not doing so is crazy, then you are just waiting for the other person to decide everything for you.

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          Or we could just have fun and trust ourselves and not be so paralyzed by this need to control the outcome. And if we get played, so be it. By our age, it’s not like we’re in a rush down the aisle or to have kids. Who cares? So what if it’s a string of dinner dates and hanging out drinking cocktails? Why does it matter so much? Why does everything have to fit a certain pattern in order to be okay or right? They might leave you after 5 dates or 5 months or 5 years. If the goal is to find a long term or committed relationship, someone is actually lowering their chances of finding one by being so myopic and stringent in their idea of how things should roll out.

          • vox. Says:

            Offi am treated in a manner unacceptable to me, I leave. It’s that simple. I don’t care about the outcome, because I’m gone before the outcome reveals itself. No, I will not wait to see how things are played out if I don’t like the way I am treated. Men do this to me, and I do it to them.i don’t understand this Go With the Flow thing in which we should just accept whatever comes our way. That’s just not for me. I don’t judge other women if that works for them, but it simply does not work for me.

            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              Offi am treated in a manner unacceptable to me, I leave. It’s that simple. I don’t care about the outcome, because I’m gone before the outcome reveals itself.

              That’s my point. You have a set idea of things should play out. And if they don’t, you leave. You even admit that you don’t stick around to see how they will actually play out. So, really, you don’t know how things will play out. You’re just assuming because your evaluation – which is biased – determined that these men weren’t up to snuff.

              i don’t understand this Go With the Flow thing in which we should just accept whatever comes our way.

              Nobody said anything about expecting what comes your way. Nobody said settle for bad behavior. What’s being suggested is that people stop being so rigid in their definition of how things should work.

        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          “The true test is doing something without alcohol, without watching a movie, just the two of you talking so you can get to know each other.” Your words.

  5. garvan Says:

    This is pretty much why I just come up with one amazing message, and copy paste it.

    There’s no point in trying to win the girl over on the first message. Just send some amusing message that seems unique, and give them some question at the end as way of responding back thoughtfully, so at least now they’re engaged if they respond back. It’s all the benefit of a customized message, with none of the thought required.

    If she responds back, we can go forward.

    If not, well all I did was press CRTL + V, like I did for the last 50 women I messaged that day.

    • LaLa Says:

      When I did online dating, I could always tell who was sending out copy and paste messages and it was kind of a turnoff because I knew they were sending the same “unique” message to a bunch of other women. Plus, I would usually get the guy sending the same message to me multiple times because he couldn’t keep track of who he was sending it to. I would have rather received a “hey like your profile. it’s cool you do ___” then a copy and paste.

      • garvan Says:

        When done well, the few that can figure it out are pretty much exceptions.

        For every 50 messaged
        25 reply positively
        22 never reply
        2 reply back with something negative
        1 replies back “you’ve sent this before”

        Players like me never focus on trying to win over every single girl. We know that’s impossible.

        We also know that the majority of female profiles are “I LIKE SHOPPING, CLUBBING, TRAVEL, AND HANGING OUT WITH FRIENDS”, or some variation (replace shopping with fashion or designer furniture, and you’ve still got shopping… it’s just more specific)

        The few women with decent profiles end up getting bombarded by all sorts of people, and in general, I know the majority of the responses they get are “hey”, “ur hot”, or “hey like your profile. it’s cool you do ___”.

        Players like me KNOW instinctively that you want to feel special, and the dude you’re getting with has to be even more special. That’s exactly why we will not do what EVERY OTHER GUY DOES. Whatever the norm is, we just do it differently, and it suddenly makes us stick out from the pack,

        I mean, really that’s what the online screening test that majority of women use is.

        The guy needs to be “interesting, different, special, magical”, he cannot be “just an average dude who’s normal and genuinely interested”, because that’s what the majority of dudes are.

        Which is why we’ll bank on a unique copy-pasta with enough embedded commands, appeal to different emotions, and try to match the theme of it with the sort of girls we get along with best.

        If the test you use to screen guys is, “HE NEEDS TO BE DIFFERENT! SPECIAL! AND KNOW EXACTLY WHAT BUTTONS TO PRESS”, then you’ll get exactly what you wanted, a player.

        In this regards, I completely agree with the author.

        The simple fact is this, the more tests you use to screen guys, the more likely the only people passing are players. Average decent dudes looking for commitment aren’t capable of passing the tests the ‘gina tingling players can.

        • offensivedan Says:

          If you are such a player why do you waste it online.? Every “true” player, i know or have read about, does not go online to pickup women. In fact, they discourage men from online dating because of the time investment compared with the low odds of success. It seems to me, “online player” , that you waste a lot of time and energy on a medium that yields a low percentae of ass. Why not use that time and energy to be a “player” offline” where your chances will be more in your favor?

          You can be “King Player” and you won’t be that successful online. Why? Because you are judged on your pics and not by what you say by most women on there. And I am speaking from experience as I, too, have gotten ass from online.

          In summary, I dispute your “player” status.

          • Howard Says:

            Some guys like night game, Some guys like day game, and some guys like online game. Players have their preference, but in the end players get screwed too. Too much choice can be a confusing thing at times.

            Sure I stopped online because it was a time watser, but really about the same time I had gotten involved in dancing, ballroom and latin, and was meeting a ridiculous number of women. At first I got into taking numbers and found out what every player should find out. it really gets to be too much, when you have over 25 numbers you can’t get around to calling most, and you really can’t conceivably deal with it in your head properly. We have a saying in NYC. A pretty girl on every street corner but a good woman still hard to find!

            • Joey Giraud Says:

              in the end players get screwed too.

              Probably not from their point of view.

              “Players” who brag aren’t playing the game they say they’re playing. Social status or erasing old shame is the goal.

  6. Saj Says:

    I agree to not try so hard in your opening email and also to avoid form emails. Why can’t there be a happy medium? I’ve deleted form emails without even reading the profile because if he didn’t really care why should I? It’s not too different then going to a venue and seeing a guy trolling everyone for phone numbers before eventually making his way to you. It’s not attractive.

    A couple of normal lines of Hi, I’m blah blah I read your profile and think we have somethings in common like A B and C. If you are interested write me back. I would be excited to hear back from you.

    Begin Rant.

    I guess it’s hard to explain and it goes against the light and breezy rules but it’s also nice to try to have some conversations that aren’t just superficial and to see if you guys connect on a more personal level before going out or early in the going out process and even the sleeping together process. I’m not sure you need dozens of years of dating failures to gather necessary experience in learning how to connect with another human being beyond your hot and I’m horny. I grew up with douchebags so know what they look like, went out with an octopus so know what those look like and went out with some really warm hearted people so know what they look like. I did all of this in one year and by 20 knew what kind of guy I wanted to go out with and limited my dating experiences to guys who exhibited these warm hearted treats exclusively. If I have to go out with 20 douchebags over a 5 year period to learn how to avoid them then I’m a slow learner, an idiot or find douchebags hot but won’t admit it.

    Avoiding gathering baggage is more important then people want to give credit for. The longer people date and fail the more paranoid and suspicious of each other they get and are constantly vigilant for people screwing them over while trying to protect themselves. Now simple things like who pays, what kind of first date do you go on and how fast you should sleep with someone are on itemized lists for peoples shit tests. It seems that women get all the flack for having shit tests when so many male posters here happily post about theirs with hardly a peep but rather that’s smart.

    This entire webpage is full of people who can’t get past the first month of dating let alone the 6th month mark or the year mark. It’s full of people who are going out with someone who is completely obviously not interested in a relationship but they want to stick their heads in the sand and think if they are more manipulative or strategic they can change their minds. After 2 months at the most you should damn well know if somebody is into you because they let you know they are into you and their actions back it up. Anything longer then that and your treading water and delaying the inevitable.

    Boning everyone by date 3 will not up your chances.
    Going dutch on every date will not up your chances.
    Sending form letters will not up your chances.
    Being paranoid and suspicious will not up your chances.

    Dating EXCLUSIVELY people who seem like warm caring people who don’t have walls of ice surrounding them and knocking down your own ice barriers will up your chances. Forget his job, her number of hotness, how fast you have sex and who pays because it’s all irrelevant. Focus only if they seem like a good decent human being and are attractive enough so it’s not a distraction and try to “connect with them” and stop dating people who aren’t and you will find a relationship much faster. If you want to give that flakey ambivalent guy more time so you don’t come off as a high maintenance demanding bitch then you are happy wasting your own time being in a state of flux. Dating should not be about spending your time in flux because you don’t know if the guy your sleeping with gives a shit because his actions are keeping him distant. Stop wasting so much time and be selfish for once.

    I’m not a 10, don’t have a sparkling personality and I’m a social retard with most things but getting past the first month is NOT HARD. Don’t be a jerk and stop dating jerks.


    • LaLa Says:

      So agree!

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      This entire webpage is full of people who can’t get past the first month of dating let alone the 6th month mark or the year mark.

      It doesn’t sound like anybody here has been able to master the whole marriage thing, either. So not really sure what your point is. Getting someone to stick around out of obligation or desperation isn’t something to brag about.

  7. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    I wasn’t expecting to be quoted (yeah right) so I’m not sure I expressed myself as well as I could have. The point is was making was that judgment comes from experience. Judgment in relationships therefore comes from experience in relationships. Yet, relationships and sex is one area where experience is seen as a bad thing. Lack of experience is, in fact, valued. In no other area is this true. You wouldn’t reject a lawyer because he handled too many trials or a doctor who’s done too many surgeries. We consider those people to be “better” and more likely to have good judgment based on their experience. Yet, with relationships, we take advice from people who got married young, like our parents – thinking they must have done something right. We struggle to avoid having multiple partners and multiple relationships because we think it will reflect poorly on us. It’s a great paradox and I do think this deliberate lack of relationship experience leads to poor decision-making with respect to relationships.

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      The point is was making was that judgment comes from experience.

      The real problem is that so many people lack self-awareness that they assume that the people who dumped them or blew them off were shallow, disingenuous assholes just looking for a free meal or sex. When really, those people got dumped because they were insufferable trainwrecks. But since the person is utterly lacking in self-awareness, they don’t learn anything. They think they do, though, and they love to tell everybody how they figured out. But they didn’t figure out anything.They stayed exactly the same. They don’t learn how to form good judgment. Their judgment still sucks. They just met someone who was willing to over look their issues.

      When someone comes along that indulges their trainwreck behavior, they’re deemed “good.” No, they just tolerated your bullshit because they had major issues of their own or had no options. That doesn’t mean you learned or emotionally evolved. It means you managed to find someone so desperate that they’re willing to indulge your ridiculous whims and needs because they are desperate.

      There’s a big difference between having cocktails followed by sex and doing something non cocktail related, in terms of getting to know someone.

      To me, it depends on the quality of experience and what is shared. I know men who will take women to an art showing or go on vacation with them, and they’re not remotely invested in the relationship. It’s just something to do. While I agree that the weekly pre-sex cocktail date isn’t terribly substantive, if the two people are connecting on an emotional level, then what you do doesn’t really matter.

      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        “There’s a big difference between having cocktails followed by sex and doing something non cocktail related, in terms of getting to know someone.”

        There’s a huge difference between getting to know someone on a Tuesday date and getting to know someone on a Thursday date. I mean, they are different days so they’re totally different. I met my last girlfriend on a Tuesday and she turned out to be a scam artist who dumped me. So, obviously Tuesday dates are bad news. Nice logic.

        You can keep repeating how different it is – no, really, I mean it, I’m telling you, it’s sooo different- but you’re not even attempting to explain why the difference is relevant. I see no relevant difference between a cocktails date, a dinner date, a walk in the part date, or an art museum date for the purpose of getting to know someone. If both parties want to get to know each other, it will happen whatever the venue. If you had a bad experience with dinner dates, it doesn’t mean the dinner date was the cause of the problem.

        • vox. Says:

          How silly. The difference between a cocktail date and a non cocktail date is that with the former you are mentally affected (if not downright impaired) and with the latter you are not. I’m quite surprised that anyone could make he arguement that drinking ns not drinking = Tuesday vs thursday. This is one of your worst arguements to date.

          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            Okay, so what if the two people don’t get inebriate or have a high tolerance. Do those dates count then? Or does a certain blood alcohol level need to be involved in order to disqualify these dates?

            • Angeline Says:

              I would go further and say that a slightly or even fairly inebriated conversation over a few drinks can be quite substantive in terms of getting to know someone. If the barriers come down, and you have a deep conversation that goes all over the place, with laughs and passionate opinions and fun, and you come away from it the next morning or days later with a sense of “oh that was great!”, and can’t wait for the next conversation, that’s a lot of ‘getting to know someone’ that has taken place. I fail to see a problem with this. I think activities can give you the option to hide from this, actually.

              • Steve Says:

                My activity meetings have gone much better than drinks/dinners. In fact from now on I’ve decided to do only activities on first meeting. There’s more to talk about and you’re not stuck staring at each other with awkward silences. I will save food/ drink meetings for later meetings.

          • Kegs Says:

            You seem to have a real issue with alcohol. Some of us can handle alcohol pretty well, and can enjoy a couple of hours and even 3 or 4 beers in a bar and still be mentally capable of knowing if there is a connection or not!! It may be rare where you live for relationships that involve bars for dates to evolve, but I can assure you it’s no more typical than the opposite.

            And even if you did get drunk, it can still work. One of my close friends met her now husband when they were so drunk, she had his number the next day and couldn’t remember what he looked like and wasn’t sure whether to meet him and find out (we were in early 20’s). The other girl vomited over her now husband’s shoes on the night they met, and she knew it was love when he held back her hair for her. Both couples are now married with kids and probably never drink much at all anymore! How you meet and how much alcohol is involved and whether dates continue that way are not the signs of a casual sex relationship on their own, there are plenty of other factors you should be taking into account…

            • vox. Says:

              Actually I love to drink, and have stated before that I am quite a wino. I take clients out for lunch and dinner quite often, and as such am often conducting business deals while consuming a bottle of wine on my own. Those people don’t know the real me. And if all my dates with a person involved alcohol, that person would not know the real me.

              I guess it comes down to what you are looking for. If you want someone you can sit on he couch with and have a great time together without props, you aren’t goin to find out if your drinking date fits the bill. I love my wine, and if you open a bottle I can have a fun time with anyone on the planet. (again that’s a part of my job, entertaining clients with booze and conversation). Having fun aided by alcohol tells you nothing about compatability with a person.

              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                I guess it comes down to what you are looking for. If you want someone you can sit on he couch with and have a great time together without props, you aren’t goin to find out if your drinking date fits the bill.

                I’m failing to understand your logic here. Isn’t the activity involved with an activity date just a different kind of prop? First your argument was that a drinks date meant that there was not substance the relationship. Now you’re saying that it’s not the drinks date itself, but how much you consume that disqualifies it. What if the two people both have a high tolerance and their behavior and judgment doesn’t change after 2-3 drinks? Then does it count?

                • vox. Says:

                  In ever said that how much you consume disqualifies things… Or at leat that wasn’t my intent. Where are you getting that? I really don’t know what you are talking about.

              • DrivingMeNutes Says:

                Also, presumably, if you enjoy wine that much, you will want a boyfriend who enjoys your company while under its influence. So, ability to tolerate your drunkenness as well as your periodic episodes of sobriety would seem to be a preferred quality in a partner.

                • vox. Says:

                  Well yes, and that is what I said in the first place on the other thread – if you *only* drink with your date, if *all* your dates involve booze and sex, you aren’t building a relationship. I never said that alcohol is bad or hould be avoided, but that you must do other activities as well. If you dont, and only drink, you are just fucking and/or sucking. I stand behind that, and I truly don’t understand why people find my opinion on the matter so odd. Ok, I get if if you are 25. But at 40+, I find it very strange.

                  • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                    I agree that, ideally, you want to incorporate other activities into the mix. But just because two people don’t doesn’t mean, definitively, that relationship lacks substance or is more than sex. It’s fine that it’s a personal rule for you. But that doesn’t mean other people have to follow or agree with it.

                    In ever said that how much you consume disqualifies things…

                    My mistake then. I thought when you brought up the point that, when you drink, you don’t feel you are able to form lasting or substantive impressions or connections, you were implying that the drinks date usually involved inebriation of some kind. Thereby making the date less substantive. Thereby making the relationship less substantive.

                  • DrivingMeNutes Says:

                    Actually, it wasn’t about drinking until recently. You originally said “dinner dates” could not lead to a substantive relationship. Dinner dates, while fun, are not conducive to substantive conservation. Whereas, a walk on the beach is. Obviously indefensible which is why you’ve silently retreated from that position. Your “opinion” is neither odd, not is it even an opinion It’s called an indefensible argument. Nothing personal.

                    • vox. Says:

                      I have not retreated from my position at all.

                      I wrote about dinner dates very specifically in response to a woman who wanted to know whether her casual sex partner could become something more. I stated that if all they ever do is have dinner and/or cocktails followed by sex, it is a sign he has no interest in getting to know her any better. If he wanted to get to know her better, he’d suggest a different, non-drinking (thus slightly mire challenging) activity for a change. I 100% stand behind that opinion because I know I’m right.

                    • Crotch Rocket Says:

                      “I 100% stand behind that opinion because I know I’m right.” I have found that the more certain someone is they’re right, the more likely they are to be wrong.

                • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                  I 100% stand behind that opinion because I know I’m right.

                  Except, you don’t. You might know that the men you’ve gone out with that have only taken you to dinner or drinks don’t want anything more from you than something casual. But you can’t make such a definitive statement because you’re not dating every man that dates. You don’t know. It’s okay not to know. I don’t know why it’s so important for you to say you do know this for a fact when you couldn’t possibly know that.

                  • vox. Says:

                    No, it’s also about letter after letter written here and on other blogs, and about talking to male friends and business associates. (i dont do the fwb deal nor do i typically fuck on date 3 as i am more sexually conservative, as you may recall. Its not about my personal experience.) Am I right everytime? Nope! But close enough.

                    My calling this is no different than, for instance, deciding to not accept last minute midnight dates from a potential suitor. You know that most likely the guy just wants an easy fuck, so you decline. Yes, *maybe* he is the one man who is genuine but… Come on. You don’t fall for that, and neither do I.

      • Cricri Says:

        While this post resonated with me about the lack of experience, I will say that I had preferred to work on my self awareness more than collecting all kinds of baggage. I have none and have never been cheated on, dumped or any of those aggravating sorts of things. I simply size up very quickly what type of man I have in front of me and act accordingly. As you said most of the time, people tell/show us who they are very fast and I just take that. After seeing my college mate and friends going hopping from and to drama filled relationships, I realized that while I’m somewhat smart I’m not that much if I ever wanted to play games or manipulate people. So some people don’t need to engage in all kinds of shenanigans to become self-aware. Epiphanies or reality checks come to some when at the lowest of low but for others it might just come from simple observation.

  8. nathan Says:

    “I honestly don’t think men care what the woman says in that first email. They’re just happy she’s making the first move.”

    As long as she says something more than “hi” or “what’s up?”, this is true for me. Although I tend to like it much more when I’m asked a question about something in my profile, or if she shares that she also likes such and such that I wrote about. This is exactly how I approach the first e-mails I send out. Short, but directly related to the profile in question.

    Quality gets confused with quantity far too often. A few well considered lines speaks volumes over a generic “hello, let’s talk.” or some long winded e-mail professing your shared loved of X, Y, and Z and how you “must be meant to meet each other” blah, blah, blah.

  9. offensivedan Says:

    As I have written previously, online dating is a frustrating and ultimately time wasting experience for men. No matter how much time and energy you put in, the results are mediocre at best. Think you and the cute 30-something year old with no kids and a substantive profile are a match? Think again, pal. 159 other guys think the same and you will get lost in the mix.

    Also, online dating, seems to encourage bitchy behavior in women. While a simple no response will suffice some will go out of their way to mock you. Other women are there just to see who is out there and are not serious about meeting anynone due to a recent break-up or for an ego trip. For examle, I sent out multiple emails to this one girl and she responded. Then she stopped. Time wasted.

    Also, the quality of women on there is suspect to me. In this case, I refer to

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      For examle, I sent out multiple emails to this one girl and she responded. Then she stopped. Time wasted.

      But that was your choice to continue to contact her when she never responded the first time. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about stuff like this. You pursue and push harder when the woman shows obvious signs of disinterest, but not because you want a response, but because you seem to think you deserve one. It’s not even about the woman any more. It’s about your ego.

      • offensivedan Says:


        You misread what I wrote. By multiple emails, I meant I sent her one email she replied, I then replied etc. She was replying then she stopped. At which point, I let it go.

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          Got it. My mistake. But this si still the nature of online dating. That happens to everybody. Not just men.

          • SB Says:

            Ditto. As a woman, I sometimes send out emails first. Same as said above, short and to the point, showing interest and mentioning something in the profile that I also enjoy or am interested in learning about. You get maybe one response in 10.
            Even a guy who emails you first, you go back and forth a couple times, then they either stop or I suggest grabbing coffee. Disappearing acts ensue. :/

            Maybe I should add that I am 25 and decently attractive. Get hit on constantly in real life. Maybe I am not selling myself well online, who knows. Most of the emails I get from guys are crap, like a one-word insult or someone asking if I’d like to be the “student” to a 50 y.o. “professor” Yuck

  10. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    Let’s say your guy is Jewish and you’re Catholic. How do you handle that? What are the expectations?

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