Why Dating Rules & Tests Are All Bulls*it

Name: CassieA woman typing on a computer keyboard
State: NYCcomN
Age: http://34
Comment: Hi Moxie,

I met a guy a week ago in a bar and we hit it off. We exchanged numbers and went out on our first date the following night and had dinner and drinks. .the conversation was great and  we have a lot common. At the end of the date we didn’t get kiss but he gave me a hug. During the course of the week we texted off and on. He initiated the texts.

We went out on our second date and had a great time.  This time it was drinking and dancing. As the night wore on (and the booze flowed) we began to casually touch each other – hand on the back, lap etc – so by the end of the night we were making out like teenagers. He begged me to go home with him but I declined. I could tell he was disappointed. But what guy isn’t? He continues to text me but hasn’t asked for another date. Although he knew I had plans with my friends on Saturday and he was watching the football game with friends on Sunday.

My question is two-fold: (1) how do I know if he genuinely likes me or he’s priming the pump so that I sleep with him. I have to admit that after that make out session I would love to sleep with him but I don’t want him to do the fade away. Or am I getting ahead of myself considering he hasn’t asked me out for date 3 yet? (2)  can I ask him out for date 3 or should I wait for him to ask me? I think this guy may have potential but I don’t want to blow it by sleeping with him too soon or asking him out.  Thanks for your advice. Cassie

 

You should absolutely ask him out for the third date. He’s probably feeling  a little unsure of things since you politely put the brakes on things getting to hot and heavy. He’s gun shy now.

how do I know if he genuinely likes me or he’s priming the pump so that I sleep with him.

Cassie, he IS priming the pump so that you’ll sleep with him. That’s okay. You want to sleep with him, too. You’re not looking to pump and dump him, are you? We have to get past this idea that just because a man wants to have sex with us that he’s going to use us or that he’s a bad person. Our heads get filled with this idea from friends and movies and magazines. It’s absolute nonsense.

I don’t have any sure fire red flags to help you spot a Mr. Hit It and Quit It. I wish I did. The only way you’re going to know for sure if he’s going to fade is if he fades. That’s it. If you want to wait until you feel you have a better baseline to use to evaluate him, then you should wait to get physical. Just understand that you’re really not waiting for a justifiable reason unless he’s given you the impression his interest and behavior are disingenuous. You think you’re controlling the outcome, but you’re not. You just think you are.

A few weeks ago I was watching an episode of American Horror Story. One of the characters was trying to rid the house of two of the more evil ghosts. So she lured him to the basement and proceeded to recite some mystical chant. She was told by a medium that this would force out all the malevolent spirits. Guess what? It didn’t work. The ghost pointed out to her that chants and burning sage and various other tricks and myths were all bullshit. They were ways that people tried to take control of a situation that scared them. It’s like when people pray to God and ask Him to influence the outcome of a situation. Listen, I love me some God. But even I know that’s crap. My Mom used to make me put my hand on a Bible and she’d put one hand over my head and she’d pray. She’d ask God to keep her from getting sick. Ta da! She died at 46! She had a huge golfball sized tumor in her breast. God can’t protect ya from that, Lady Jane. Just the idea that He’s supposed to perform some kind of divine intervention is ludicrous.  She could have prevented it by going to a doctor sooner and doing exams. We have what we need to detect or determine danger. We just ignore those things out of fear or ignorance or pride.

That’s why many of these silly rules and games and tests are bullshit. They’re flimsy ploys to help people maintain a sense of control over a situation. In reality, they do not protect people from getting used or dumped. All they do is give the person a false sense of security and power. No blog or bullet point list or “experienced” girlfriend’s wise advice can protect you. That’s a scary reality, I know. But the sooner you accept that fact, the better of you’ll be.

You want me to give you some magical elixir so that you can “know” if this guy is genuine. There is none. You’re trying to dictate the results of this experiment by using criteria that amounts to a hill of nothing. One thing I do know is that if you start to question him and you tell him how afraid you are of this happening, the more likely it is that he will fade.

You need to trust your own instincts and judgment. Forget about what I say. What do YOU think? Do you have bad taste in men? Do you always find yourself pursuing men that don’t return the interest? Do you frequently find yourself in this very position, where you’re trying to analyze him like a criminal profiler? If so, where has all of that gotten you? Because if it’s gotten you in constant analysis paralysis with no mans, it’s not working.  You might think you’ve dodged those bullets. But really, those men are the ones who should be thankful they got out in time.

Now, if you’ve had a relative amount of success doing something, and it has worked out for you, then continue to do it. If waiting helps you feel more at ease and relieve the paranoia, then do it. That will be better for both of you in the long run. But if you’re hoping that the longer he waits the more invested he’ll become, you’re heading down a bad path. More often than not, guys like that WILL hit it and quit it out of frustration and their own fear of being used.

You need to trust that you have good judgment with men. If you want to have sex with him, then have sex with him. Be safe, ask the appropriate questions, and then enjoy it. If he never calls again, so what. You had a great few dates. Maybe he didn’t feel the sexual chemistry was there. Maybe he realized he wasn’t ready. Maybe he didn’t feel you were the one for him. Whatever. You’re never going to know the real reason anyway, so there’s no point in obsessing.

The only way you’re going to be able to control the outcome of this situation is to control how you react and respond to it. We’re always trying to control the guys, and inevitably we end up surrendering our control and power by doing so.  So stop with all the rules and tests. They don’t work.

They’re bullshit.

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75 Responses to “Why Dating Rules & Tests Are All Bulls*it”

  1. Marshmallow Says:

    Moxie, I’m guessing you aren’t down with the popular “no sex before monogamy” mantra of a TV matchmaker? I always wondered how she can be so sure it affects the outcome of relationship.

    • BruceWayne Says:

      In Patti Stanger’s case (the TV matchmaker I can only assume you’re referring to), by the time the theoretical couple is ready to be exclusive and have sex, the woman has determined that the man is actually looking for a serious relationship (and usually marriage). So he wouldn’t commit that night to get sex, then break up with her in the morning because he’s looking for the same thing she is: marriage.

      I think what some people forget her advice and rules are designed for women (and men!) who really, really want to get married and settled down. If you don’t want that, then her rules don’t really make sense.

      • Steve From the City Next Door Says:

        One other thing that is different is that Patti is there…I mean if he commits for just the one night the lady is sure to tell Patti and then he gets hell and probably kicked out (loosing whatever Patti’s club costs).

        In a normal situation he could just fade away and there is nothing the lady could do about it.

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “the lady is sure to tell Patti and then he gets hell and probably kicked out” Exactly; and that’s how dating is for kids in High School and for even adults in rural areas: everybody knows everybody else, more or less, so bad behavior is generally punished and certainly well-known. Things are different in the anonymity of a city or of online dating.

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “her advice and rules are designed for women (and men!) who really, really want to get married and settled down.” More importantly, her rules are designed for situations where both people know, a priori, that they’re on the same page. That does not apply to the vast majority of dating, where the two people are relative strangers.

    • LaLa Says:

      I think it’s because a lot of women have their judgement clouded when they have sex with a man too early on and therefore miss a lot of red flags and bad character traits in men they wouldn’t have missed if they had waited. It’s a way for women to keep their “head clear” while getting to know a man.

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        The sex is not why their heads get “clouded ” their heads were already clouded. The sex is just an excuse to freak out.

        • LaLa Says:

          Some people believe in the oxytocin hormone and the bonding effects it can produce. I know for me personally, I don’t have as clear of a head if I have sex with a guy early on. Some women can have casual sex. I’ve tried it and can’t.

          • Angeline Says:

            Some people believe in Santa. Doesn’t make him real.

            • LaLa Says:

              I don’t really care to get into an argument about whether or not oxytocin exists. Some scientists will say it is. Some will say it’s not. There is still validity to the claim that some women have their judgement and heads “clouded” when having sex too early. There is something to be said about taking things slow, whether or not the majority of people agree.

              • dimplz Says:

                That’s because your mind is more powerful than any drug out there.

                • Saj Says:

                  Your mind is full of chemicals, drugs, receptors that mess with your emotions. Hense the booming mood stabilizer industries.

              • Angeline Says:

                Oxytocin absolutely exists. The BS here is that is makes you a nutcase after sleeping with a guy. It is one of the major hormones that cause contractions in labor, it is present when breastfeeding, but in vastly larger quantities than sleeping with the new hot date. It simply does not have the power you’re giving it in your mind. You decide to be a basketcase if a guy leaves after having sex with you a few times, and blaming it on a hormone gives you permission.

                I agree that women see sex differently *in our culture*. Religion, fairy tales, family, a slight, *slight* assist from hormones, and yes, we may well (in general) have different expectations and hopes attached to sex. Unless you want to return to a time where women were considered fast or loose if they had sex before marriage, or date within the strictures of a religion that frowns on premarital sex, then you have to live with the realities of dating today. Certainly you can wait as long as you want. There’s no question of consent. you get to decide. You just can’t expect or demand that the guy will stick around for that magic moment.

                I also think the logic about attachment as presented below is backwards. If it becomes a larger and larger deal to get invested and then get dumped, that seems like an argument for having sex *earlier*, before you build all those castles in the air.

                Don’t want to have sex? Want to have sex? Own it. Don’t blame it on a hormone that has a mild and transitory effect, *if any*.

                • DrivingMeNutes Says:

                  Great comment.

                  For the oxytocin supporters, I’m wondering when during “sex” is the alleged hormone released. Is an orgasm required? Does the penis have to enter the vagina? Does oral sex create oxytocin? What if you have sex but no orgasm? Is attachment created? What if lots and lots of orgasms, but no actual intercourse? Attachment? Do women get attached to their vibrators? No, really, can you people really be that retarded?

                  Here’s the asnwer. For women, sex is power. For many, many women, sex is their ONLY power. When they give it up, the expect something in return. So, if they don’t get what they expect, they are really, really disappointed. Really. That’s it. That’s “attachment.” Disappointed expectations and resolution of cognitive dissonance (“I am really disappointed so the thing I wanted must have been really special and valuable.”) It’s complicated but not THAT complicated. You’re welcome.

                  • Angeline Says:

                    If oxytocin was such a powerful bonding agent, I wonder why laboring women with massive amounts of oxytocin coursing through their veins, or on a Pitocin (synthetic oxytocin) drip, don’t develop massive crushes on their nursing staff and doctors during labor, and mourn the lost relationship with chick flicks and ice cream. Labor, menstrual cramps, breastfeeding ‘let-down’, all oxytocin-fueled events, compared to the tiny little jolt of oxy during an orgasm – the hormone is real. Its magical love potion powers are alleged.

                  • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                    For the oxytocin supporters, I’m wondering when during “sex” is the alleged hormone released. Is an orgasm required? Does the penis have to enter the vagina? Does oral sex create oxytocin? What if you have sex but no orgasm? Is attachment created? What if lots and lots of orgasms, but no actual intercourse? Attachment? Do women get attached to their vibrators? No, really, can you people really be that retarded?

                    Jackie

            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              “Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 5″

              Five thumbs down for science? Really?

              There are many, many people out there who need to learn that not liking a fact does not make it untrue. How you feel about those facts is an opinion, and all opinions are valid, but you’ll never get anywhere in life if you cannot learn to accept that facts are facts and deal with the world accordingly.

  2. offensivedan Says:

    Man, as soon as he has sex with her he will dump her. In other words, this will be a pump and dump. The begging for sex and disappointment gave this guy away. She should not contact him and advising her to do so is just plain, bad advice. It’s all a game and he is punishing her for not sleeping with him by “pulling back.” He’s also using it to take back control. He’s playing a game with her! What she should do is the same thing. Trust me, he will invite you out again. You see, we can sit here and say games are b/s and all; unfortunately, that does not hold true for most daters.

    So, OP, wait it out. The fox will be coming around the henhouse sooner or later. And if he does not come around, do you really want to go out with a man who “begged’ you for sex on th second date? It’s clear he has nothing else going on and hence why you should wait. Damn, this dude should have his “man card” revoked for begging for sex. If you want a woman to come back to your place you ask and if she declines you leave it alone. You do not show disappointment. Any man with experience knows this.

    • The Reluctant Monogamist Says:

      No, THIS is terrible advice. Sleep with him if you want, don’t if you don’t. Waiting it out, not waiting it out is of no importance. If he likes her, he will call her again. If he doesn’t, he won’t. Period.

    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      I don’t understand this comment. You seem to be suggesting that he obviously misplayed his hand and fucked up by “begging” for sex and showing weakness. Yet, clearly the OP STILL wants to have sex with him. She wants him to call. So, make up your mind. If he’s inexperienced then, by definition, he’s not a player.

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Also remember that we’re dealing with “womanese.” In her mind, he wanted her so badly that he was begging for sex. Not to say that he doesn’t want her. I’m sure he does. Also not to say that he’s a player. I have no idea. She’s trying to justify sleeping with him, which is why she’s saying (and probably believes) that he was “begging” her.

    • Howard Says:

      Offensivedan, I just can’t support that. Guys hate a cock tease, whether it’s intentional or by accident. If a woman gets hot and heavy with you and then pulls back, you start to wonder if she is playing a game or manipulating you. Rejection is a bitch. Even though we face it all the time as guys, it is always hard to get past when everything is going so well and then, Bam, your bubble gets burst. If it all goes wrong from the start, it’s actually easier to deal with.

      When women do a cocktease to a guy, it’s the closest equivalent to a pump and dump that guys do to women. People like to pretend they are so innocent but they know exactly what they are doing. Women know when they are getting a guy extremely sexually excited. For some foolish women, it’s a stupid game where they seem to derive some sort of twisted sense of emotional endorsement of their worth.

      If a woman does not plan to have sex with a guy and starts to lead him down the garden path, building false hopes and expectations, I fail to see how that is different from a guy giving a woman false hope just to have sex with her and then dumps her. Personally I feel that women who cocktease are the ones who get pumped and dumped the most. The human mind can be very trwisted on an unconscious level. Some of these guys are probably just paying her back on an unconscious level and don’t even realize they are doing so. Their unconscious mind is saying “Well you built false hopes for me and dashed them a few trimes, so let’s see how you deal with the same” In some strange way, the current behavior of this guy, already has some elements of that.

      • offensivedan Says:

        Howard, if a woman wants to be a cocktease to me I just leave. End of story. She can call and I’m not answering. Maybe, I’ll call her back. I refuse to let any women manipulate me or upset me by implying she will have sex with me and then does not. For example, a friend of mine, who is married and addicted to sex, gets manipulated by his wife to do things in exchange for the chance he might have sex with her. I don’t give her the power or the opportunity to do that to me. In the past, other things women do have gotten to me, but not this. Sex is great but it does not hold sway over me like some of you guys.

      • Saj Says:

        False! I’ve teased plenty (I guess if you can give a disclaimer ahead of time of if you want to fool around you WILL end up with blue balls. Are you ok with this? If not we can stop right now. Of course they always go “derrrr no I’m fine I’m fine” And there was no dumping. I’ve also been sexually frustrated and teased and yes it can lead to anger and feeling pissed off but never enough for me to negate the entire relationship in progress.

        Guys are confusing. They moan that lack of sex means the girls aren’t interested but when they get at least something moan about a tease and if they get all of it wonder if they can trust the girl. As what is said above girls just be selfish because there is no pleasing some types and hopefully you can find someone who compliments your selfishness.

  3. Single in NC Says:

    Aren’t you going about it the wrong way anyway? I always find that we women get this decision so back azwards! Truth is you should only sleep with him if you feel like you want to. Not worry about what he wants or needs. Too soon to be concerned with his needs and wants at this point, it is still about what your needs and wants are first. That is what being single means, you getting to choose for yourself what you want or desire for YOUR life. If it happens to coincide with his, all the better and maybe then it is a good fit, but to try to determine whether you want him or not based on what you think you are going to obtain by sharing is kind of like trying to buy a car based entirely on the warranty. Hope my two cents helps.

    • Howard Says:

      And truth is, you shouldn’t get guys all hot and heavy, aka cockteasing, if you don’t want to have sex. Yes, there is always some hotness going to take place. But reading what the OP wrote, she certainly took that hot and heavy too far for a woman not planning to have sex. That he begged, shows he’s clearly not a player. Those guys have other manipulation techniques.

      And regarding what she wants, obviously this guy, she wrote in. Moxie is 100% correct. She should reach out. If you lead someone on, then reject him and he honors your rejection by keeping distance, how the hell that makes him bad? It’s the continued villanizing of men that allows people, both men and women, to imagine that

      Also, there is no way in hell I can endorese that “what I want” mantra. It’s what got us to our current crisis in human relationships. Both genders are guilty too.

      Do “What I want” but be cognizant of not giving people the wrong ideas or leading astray or taking advantage.

      • The Reluctant Monogamist Says:

        Whoa there….she led him on? She’s a cocktease? Because she didn’t go through with the sex on that particular date? It’s obvious from her letter that she wanted sex, but didn’t feel 100% comfortable having it right then and there. Is she supposed to just go through it regardless? What about consent?

        • offensivedan Says:

          Yeah, if she does not want to have sex and needs time to make up her mind then I’ll give it to her. However, i won’t be calling her back. OP, you see how this works? The mistake you made was by letting it get as far as it did on just your second date. Now, this guy wants to have sex and that is his objective. My advice–find someone else and learn your lesson. As a woman, you need to pace things or find a guy who is more confident and not as needy for vag as this guy is. Begging? C’mon!

          • Saj Says:

            Er so what should she have done when his hands started wandering? Push them away and say sorry I don’t want you to think I’m a tease? He’ll still feel rejected even then.

            • offensivedan Says:

              Saj,as much as I like the female form and copping a feel, if the chick does not want to go further I don’t have a cow and start begging. I guess it’s b/c I have felt enough women in my time and it’s no big deal–aka experience. However, if she keeps doing this and it does not lead to sex after a bit–yes, that’s a problem. My point is that this guy is clearly a sexual novice and I can’t see why the OP would want to see this clown again. Is this guy younger than the OP?

              Also, if a chick pushes my hands off of her after the second date I won’t feel rejected. However, that’s never happened to me.

              • The Reluctant Monogamist Says:

                “if a chick pushes my hands off of her after the second date I won’t feel rejected”

                Maybe not, but I bet you will label her a “cocktease” if anything had happened prior to your hands making contact with her. At what point exactly is a woman allowed to go and say no without being a cocktease? 1st base? 2nd base?

                • Howard Says:

                  “so by the end of the night we were making out like teenagers.”

                  That is what the OP wrote. If yu do that on your second date, a guy expects to get some. If he doesn’t he will come back if he is a teenager, because he probably had none or little ever. If he is a grown man, he may honor your rejection with distance.

                  Let’s agree right now. Grown women aint liitle girls and grown men aint little boys! Grown women don’t go making out like teenagers if they plan on giving some. Grown men are way past the intense makeout without getting some.

                  • The Reluctant Monogamist Says:

                    Ok, 2nd base then. You are not allowed to get to 2nd base with a man without letting him round home and head into the dugout. Because getting to 2nd base is, for a grown man, apparently the point of no return. The point at which he EXPECTS sex from a woman.

                    A man has no right to expect sex from a woman any more than a woman has a right to expect a call back after sex.

                    • Howard Says:

                      So you wanna get philosopical on me. You are right, the only thing we should expect is to age and die.

                      The reality however, is that expectations allow us to achieve things. Without goals and expectations, many of us would just fritter away our time.

                      Women have expectations too, just like men. The key to this really, is that people are much more keenly aware of other people’s expectations that they admit. So when someone disappoints someone else irregardless of gender, the know what they are doing.

                      Sometimes we can’t avoid it, but for the most part, we still have many opportunities to attenuate any potential shock that comes from disappointments we may cause. My position is that we should use those and stop pretending to be innocent.

                    • The Reluctant Monogamist Says:

                      I’m simply pointing out the sense of ENTITLEMENT that is coming through on your end. Of course, we all have expectations of other people. However, we are not entitled to get our way simply because we expect to. Have expectations of yourself, not of a virtual stranger that you’ve been on two dates with. You complain about a woman throwing a hissy fit after being pumped and dumped but that is no different than a man whining because he made out with a woman and didn’t get the sex he was expecting.

  4. LaLa Says:

    I think it’s a bad sign that he “begged” you for sex on the second date. Most guys in my experience who are interested in establishing something more than casual sex with you will not be pressuring you to have sex early on, if at all. He might be interested in you, but I would let him ask you out again. This time if you guys have a date, go without a lot of alcohol and get to know each other on a deeper level. There is no real way to tell if a guy is going to pump or dump you except to get to know him and take your time building a solid foundation. There really isn’t a timeline for sex, but a lot of times it can cloud your judgement with a guy if you have it too early, so take your time if it does. You can always be honest about your feelings and explain why you want to take it slow. If you think you can handle sex early on, then you have to be fine with the risk that he might do the fade. I started doing more “traditional” dating about a year ago and have found it to be so much better. Letting the man lead by asking you out on dates in the beginning, taking your time to build a solid foundation before sex, and connecting with your feminine core can sometimes help you navigate dating a lot easier. After I embraced a more traditional style, I found a really great guy, and we took our time to build a healthy and solid foundation and I’ve never been happier. I went through years of bad boys and players before this. You just have to find what works for you.

    • Steve Says:

      How exactly do you define “traditional dating”? Longer period of time/more dates before sex? If so, how many dates? What is the norm in relationships these days, sleeping/having sex early and then “dating”, or get to know someone over many dates before sex, and has it changed over time?

      • LaLa Says:

        To me, and the experts/sites I frequently read, traditional dating is when the masculine partner (usually the male) leads the dating/relationship. He calls/texts most of the time, plans dates in the beginning, brings up exclusivity/commitment, etc. The feminine partner plays a more passive role at first. Once you’re in an exclusive/committed relationship, it’s more equal. Some experts believe in waiting until commitment to have sex, although I don’t entirely agree. I think waiting a while, until you build a solid foundation and figure out if you are both heading towards commitment, to get physical is ideal. I waited about a month with 2-3 dates a week, until I was comfortable with him, and we both talked about what we wanted as far as relationships. He also paid for most of the dates at first, although I would buy him a drink at the bar sometimes, pay for tip, buy popcorn at the movies, and I cooked for him as a way to give back. I used to date how a lot of people do now: having sex the first few dates, splitting the tab, calling/texting the guy as much or if not more, and asking him out. I found though that “traditional” dating landed me a more masculine and alpha male who cherishes my feelings and I’ve never felt happier and secure. That’s the type of male I like though. Some women are different. I’m only an example, but many experts and people believe in it. Sorry for rambling!

        • Howard Says:

          You know all the while, he is waiting he is probably having sex with someone else, or masturbating like crazy, and most likely not to your image but some porn.

          • LaLa Says:

            Yup, that could be very true. What’s to say that he wouldn’t be doing those things anyway even if I did have sex with him early? I’m not blind to a man’s need for sex on a frequent basis. I really could care less if he watched porn even now that we are in a committed and exclusive relationship. Just because you have sex with a guy on a second date doesn’t mean he won’t be having sex the next night with someone else.

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “traditional dating is when the masculine partner (usually the male) leads the dating/relationship [and] The feminine partner plays a more passive role at first. Once you’re in an exclusive/committed relationship, it’s more equal.” So you believe in bait-and-switch tactics? That’s what you’re advocating here: you’ll be a passive observer to things until you get what you want, and then you want to take an equal role after he’s done all the hard work of winning you over. Worse, for most women, “equal” seems to mean that she gets what she wants and he gets what she wants.

          • LaLa Says:

            Equal as in I try to contribute more financially, and we both plan dates/call/text. It might not work for you, but it’s works for other men. Just because YOU don’t agree doesn’t mean that I’m trying to just “get what I want”. I do a lot of things for my boyfriend and try to make him happy. He seems pretty happy in the relationship, as am I. If traditional dating works for us, there is no need to bash on me because of it.

    • Horace Says:

      That guys aren’t pressuring a girl “early on” does not mean that we don’t want it early on. To steal a metaphor from Elaine Bennis, it’s like getting a frightened little squirrel to come to you. “No sudden movements.” We simply don’t want to scare the girl away by looking too eager, so most guys know to give you all the control over when we have sex, initially, or at least how to subtly nudge a woman in that direction.

      We absolutely want it early on. We want it immediately. We know in half a second… attractive enough or not attractive enough, and from that point on it’s on our minds, even if only in the background. We don’t NEED to know you, but that doesn’t mean we don’t WANT to know you. With women, sex and connection are usually irrevocably tied together. But men, we tend to want both, entirely independent of each other.

  5. Christina Says:

    Exactly. All of these rules are a way of making us feel secure when we don’t really trust our judgment. In the OP’s case, the fear is of being “pumped and dumped,” and she’s looking for the magic bullet that will save her from that fate. Moxie is right: there is just no one thing you can do to prevent it. If your judgment of men is usually wrong and this happens to you repeatedly, you might want to change up your “routine,” but if he’s gonna fade, he’ll do it whether or not you sleep with him.

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “[If getting pumped and dumped] happens to you repeatedly, you might want to change up your ‘routine,'” In that case, it’s not so much the “routine” that needs to be changed but the kinds of guys she chooses to date.

  6. mrcrassic Says:

    The guy could be a pump-and-dump kind of guy (though I don’t think he would have gone as hard if he was.) He could also be thinking that the OP isnt interested in him because she hasn’t really tried to make an effort to see him again. I’ve dated lots of women who have done this….it’s really annoying.

    Do it. I think dates are like job interviews: if you’ve had two awesome interviews up to this point, you will probably like the job a lot. :)

  7. JS Says:

    Wait until you feel comfortable. Only go to bed with him if you KNOW that you wont be upset if he fades afterwards. If you think you’ll be hurt or upset if he fades. Keep your knees together.

    (I know this can be hard when you really like the guy or are super attracted to him…this is why I firmly believe in “the date & the spare”….there is the guy you date and really like and wait until you’re ready so that you dont get overly emotional when you do go to bed w/ him and the guy who is your FWB who you can get needs met with while still remaining emotionally detached so that you dont jump into bed with a guy who you really like and could never sleep with and stay emotionally detached)

    Personally, I think he is trying to manipulate you by pulling away so that you’ll come to him and more willing to “please him” aka sleep with him because he’s trying to make you think he’s losing you. If he’s really into you, he will ask you out again. If he’s not that into you, he wont ask you out. In which case, are you really losing anything…? Why would you want a guy who isnt truly that into you? I dont think you would.

    If you’re really think he may be gun-shy and want to give him hope / encouragement: shoot him a txt saying “hey, how’s your day? :-)” And then he will know that you still like him and if he still likes you, he’ll ask you out.

    • BruceWayne Says:

      If you sleep with a guy early on in a relationship, and you get very, very upset, I don’ t think that’s your “dating style.” Or just, some quirky part of you. That isn’t healthy. I can’t tell if all these women (and men?) who claim they “need” to wait for monogamy or just for a long time before sleep with a someone are actually doing it because it will hurt them psychologically or if they’re just using that as an excuse.

      He isn’t trying to “manipulate” her by trying to sleep with her. That’s the point! The point of dating is to have fun, have sex, and have a serious relationship if you want one!

      Your FWB thing doesn’t make any sense. If you can sleep with one guy without getting attached, then why can’t you sleep with another one without getting attached? Because you “like him too much?” That’s total BS. If you are going to get overly-emotional after sleeping with someone, maybe you need to talk to a professional about that. Regardless of who the person is.

      I feel like women are using this as an excuse to needlessly stall sleeping with a guy and/or to judge women who have casual sex.

      • LaLa Says:

        So if you don’t engage in casual sex and wait a while to get to know a person more, than that’s not healthy, an excuse, or a need for a psychologist? That’s so sad that women now can’t have a choice of whether or not they want to wait until being in a relationship (or close to one) before sharing their bodies with another person without being called unhealthy. I’m all for choice…you want to sleep with a guy on the first date? Go for it. You want to wait? Go for that too. It’s all about what works for you. There is no need to judge people who want to wait.

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          It’s not that wanting to wait is unhealthy. What he was talking about is if you don’t wait but still get bent out of shape if it doesn’t work out. You don’t even really know that person, and there is no real relationship to speak of. Your emotional pain is from the loss of something that doesn’t even exist, just irrational expectations and self-delusion, and that is unhealthy.

          • The Reluctant Monogamist Says:

            At the end of the day, instead of doing the hard work of looking at why being dumped after sex is so devastating, some women will continue to just whine about it and blame the guy for being a dickhead. They will blame oxytocin, or society, or Disney movies, etc.

            Not letting the guys off the hook – just call the woman back and say no thanks. Don’t leave her hanging. Surely you’re not so delicate that a few tears and maybe a few harsh words will devastate you. If THAT is the reason you don’t call after sex because you’re not interested then you need to do the hard work to figure out why you’re such a pussy.

      • Saj Says:

        Hrm that’s probably a woman thing you aren’t going to understand Bruce. For guys sex for sex’s sake is great. For women the man involved and the context is very important. She could have sex with a guy she ruled out for ever having or wanting a relationship with so it doesn’t matter if he bails or doesn’t give her the emotional stability back. However if she is with a guy who she sees possibility with and he in turn rejects her then it’s much much worse for her.

        Guys just can’t seem to get that women really think about sex in much different ways then men and having it just to have it isn’t really in most of our DNA’s.

        • The Reluctant Monogamist Says:

          I think what Bruce is trying to say (and please correct me if I’m wrong here) is that placing SO much importance on the outcome of a sexual encounter with someone you have only known for a short time may not b the healthiest way to go about things. Nobody is saying that women don’t have the right to wait as long as they want. But why is it THAT devastating? I’ve been there. I’ve been pumped and dumped. I know how that feels. I had to ask myself WHY I was so upset. Why was I giving this person the power to make me feel so bad about myself? Why was his opinion of me (or actually what I perceived his opinion of me to be) so important?

          You can’t control what another person does or does not do. Ever. Stop trying, and instead focus on yourself and figuring out why you feel the way you feel, and do the things you do.

          • JS Says:

            @Reluctant I think the reason women tend to get “more upset” than men when a guy that they really likes fades after they do the deed, is to do with higher levels of oxytocin, which causing you to crave bonding and screw with our heads.

            Also, very often (and admittedly stupidly) women will sleep with a guy she really likes b/c he has told her he sees a future / wants a relationship with her…and thats why she decides to go for it, even though she may not actually be ready…but based upon his words, she feels a false sense of readiness that isnt based on her feelings but on his words.

            So….when he vanishs afterwards, it feels like “this guy just lied to me, built up my expectations, got me really emotionally excited that we may have a future together….and it was all said just to get me into bed AND it turns out that the “great guy” I liked doesnt exist, he’s not who I thought he was (aka someone who says what they mean [I want a relationship] and means what he says [doesnt fade after getting what he talked you into])

            ….Now, is this smart behavior on the part of women….No. But it is very common and eventually as a woman, you get to a point where you say “i’m letting anyoine BS me into bed before I am ready.” And when women are really listening to their inner voice, it usually takes more than 1-5 dates with someone they are casually dating to jump into bed. And then we get picked on (especially on this board) for waiting too long or having standards that are too high, etc. For me, if I really like a guy, I want to hold out and get to know him without the phsycial side getting in the way and complicating my thinking before I know in the light of day what I do or dont want. If I know that I dont see this person as long-term, then sleeping with them early (even on a first date) is no big deal b/c then I dont care if they fade or not.

            As for the FWB, that is usually someone that you’ve been sleeping with for a long time on a permanently casual basis and you’ve already compartmentalized your “feelings” about them (if any) and your reactions to oxy and as Saj said, put them emotionally in another category. Whereas with the “new guy” you havent worked out your feelings and you do “like him more” and if he faded, it would hurt, if the FWB faded, not so much.

          • BruceWayne Says:

            Yes, thank you. Correct.

            Women need to stop getting so crazy when men reject them. It’s just going to happen. There are more women who want relationships than men who want relationships, so men can be picky. Basic economics. And men get rejected all the time! Do you think they sit there and eat ice cream and watch 30 Rock? No! They get bummed out for a while, then they move on! Please learn to be happy being single. Then it won’t sting so badly if a prospective relationship doesn’t work out. Because you don’t really need them in order to be happy.

            Also, I’m a woman. So yeah, I’m not the sex fiend you think all men must be. And assuming that most women can’t or won’t enjoy sex just for sex’s sake is so old-fashioned.

            And of COURSE I’m not judging people who decide to wait. I’m judging their rationalization for waiting.

            “For women the man involved and the context is very important. She could have sex with a guy she ruled out for ever having or wanting a relationship with so it doesn’t matter if he bails or doesn’t give her the emotional stability back. However if she is with a guy who she sees possibility with and he in turn rejects her then it’s much much worse for her.”

            So, it’s more difficult for women to be rejected by men? Men can’t possibly know what it’s like to really like someone and get rejected? That’s ridiculous. I think what you meant is that it is more difficult for anyone of either gender to be rejected by someone you really like and thought you could have a future with.

            And that’s completely understandable. But basing your dating practices on that tricks will keep him around the longest is just foolish. If he wants to be with you, he will. If he doesn’t, he won’t, whether you’ve been on 2 dates or 20.

            • BruceWayne Says:

              Thank you to Reluctant Monogamist, I mean.

            • Saj Says:

              Sure everyone gets rejected but your weighting two emotional options

              Sleep with a guy you are excited about and get rejected – Big Bummer
              Don’t sleep with a guy you are excited about and get rejected – Little Bummer

              Sleep with your FWB who fades or not like JS said – No Bummer

              Now to some getting off may be more important then the Big Bummer and to others it’s not worth the risk.

              • BruceWayne Says:

                But why is it more of a bummer if he rejects you after sleeping with you? I suspect it might be that women think they’ve just “given” the man something very valuable, and now that the valuable thing has been given, it will hurt more to have it thrown in her face. But sex doesn’t really have that power. Unless one gives world-class BJ’s, sleeping with someone won’t flip the switch from “I don’t really see a future with this one…” to “I’m totally calling her tomorrow.”

                • LaLa Says:

                  There is nothing wrong with treating your body as valuable and not sleeping with every guy you’ve had a couple dates with. It has nothing to do with whether the guy will call me back or not, it’s about me and when I feel comfortable having sex with a guy. There are women who aren’t playing “games” just because they don’t have sex early on. I’ve tried the casual/equal thing and it didn’t vibe well with me. Not all women are able to have sex like a man.

                  • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                    it’s about me and when I feel comfortable having sex with a guy.

                    There’s nothing wrong with that. But your defense should end there. Dragging out the oxytocin argument or how a woman will feel worse if the guy dumps her after she sleeps with him is just silly rationalization that, if examined, makes no logical sense.

                    Not all women are able to have sex like a man.

                    Men and women do not have sex differently. That’s another fallacy foisted upon us by society, other girlfriends and religion. Women were given license to become neurotic and clingy by things like the oxytocin excuse. It’s a way to avoid accountability for their behavior. Again I’ll use PMS as an example. Women will say horrible things or get angry and then blame their hormones. Wrong. The propensity to say horrible things was always there. PMS just gives them license to act in a way that is inappropriate. It’s about being able to identify and control such irrational behavior and thoughts and take a step back until things even out.

                    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

                      “There’s nothing wrong with that. But your defense should end there.”

                      True, but if her defense is premised on “my body is valuable” she needs to be able to demonstrate how sex damages her valuable body rather than enhances it. In order to do that, you need to drag out oxytocin and STD’s and psychological trauma, and rape. If you don’t have those, all you have is, at worst, a semi-pleasurable experience that does no harm.

                      ALL these rationalizations are after-the-fact, and not motivating factors. On the other hand, you are debating with someone who has already stated that she won’t listen to science or reason. So, you should just agree to disagree.

                    • LaLa Says:

                      I don’t remember ever arguing that I feel worse after a man dumps me after sex. My only arguments were some women have their heads clouded after sex, that I prefer to go the traditional route of dating, and that I do treat my body as valuable…as far as sex, what foods I put into it, exercise, and other things. I don’t choose to engage in casual sex because it’s not right for me. I don’t see why it matters what rationalization a woman uses or doesn’t use. It’s her body and her choice.

                    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                      . I don’t choose to engage in casual sex because it’s not right for me.

                      We’re not talking about casual sex.

                      I don’t see why it matters what rationalization a woman uses or doesn’t use. It’s her body and her choice.

                      It matters because rationalizing improperly prevents women from properly identifying what they’re feeling and doing. That prevents self-awareness and growth. It also impededes proper communication. If you can’t effectively identify what you’re feeling, how can you communicate it in a way that will get you what you need?

                      Well, her brain is part of her body too. How are you protecting that? Because the sex is not what is making you get attached. It’s your brain that does that. Not your vagina. Oxytocin is produced by the brain.

                      There was a Nova sepcial on recently about pet owners and how their ocytocin levels shot up when they were petting their dogs. Sexual intercourse or orgasm are not the only ways oxytocin is produced and released.That bonding occurs during various types of stimulation/affection. Not just via sex. Therefore, you’re at risk of getting too attached or having your judgment clouded in and out of bed.

                      It’s fine that you want to wait. Just don’t use baseless arguments or excuses to justify doing so. That’s what puts your defense in to question.

                    • LaLa Says:

                      Alright, I can agree with the point you are trying to make. I am referring to it as casual sex because to me sex outside of a relationship/close to one is casual. I understand not everyone thinks of it that way. Of course people can get attached just from dating a guy without having sex. My point is that for some people sex is an emotional thing, whether you agree with it or not. I don’t have an excuse as to why I wait. I already know what is comfortable for me, what I believe in, and why I do it. My Oxy statement was only to explain why some women might not have clear heads after sex. I don’t think this argument is going anywhere, so I’ll let you guys have it. I have my beliefs and that’s fine if the majority doesn’t agree.

              • Saj Says:

                Also I don’t know why it stings so much more. It could be the Oxy, it could be wounding your ego, it could be feeling like he didn’t like you for anything but a sex partner and unless the feeling is mutual it’s a pretty shitty feeling.

                Just like how guys don’t like to be seen as a walking wallet and have girls brag about how many guys they duped into giving the woman what they want without reciprocation. Women don’t like how guys brag about all the girls they were able to sleep with without giving anything else in return. We want (and speaking for those who share similar views) emotional attachment reciprocation.

              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                Don’t sleep with a guy you are excited about and get rejected – Little Bummer

                No, it’s usually a big bummer because the woman usually replays the whole thing in her head and wonders if she could have done things differently.

                For women the man involved and the context is very important.

                Please stop dragging us all in to these rationalizations.

                However if she is with a guy who she sees possibility with and he in turn rejects her then it’s much much worse for her.

                Whether he rejects her after sex or not, she’s still going to be hurt. Especially if she has the stunted emotional maturity that can rationalize being a cocktease. And, sorry, but if the guy was a hit it and quit it guy, you get one or two of those before the onus falls back on you. If you’re waiting for the “right” time it’s because you don’t trust your own judgment and have a hard time being accountable for your decisions.

                If he’s really into you, he will ask you out again. If he’s not that into you, he wont ask you out. In which case, are you really losing anything…? Why would you want a guy who isnt truly that into you? I dont think you would.

                It’s been two dates. How into her is he supposed to be? This is where woman logic leads females down the wrong path.

                If you’re someone who likes to wait to have sex, then don’t dry hump some dude on the dance floor or engage in some heavy make out or petting session. Any woman who puts a disclaimer on such things by telling men they’re going to get blue balls because “she isn’t that kind of girl” is a child.

                Oxytocin or no oxytocin, the woman was going to get attached. All the hormone does is exacerbate the already existing feelings. After a day or two, it wears off. Then everybody is back to normal. The feeling of a bond is temporary. It’s like PMS. I cry like a bitch at the stupidest things two days before my period. And then I’m fine. What’s required is being able to identify what is causing the surge in emotion and attachment and acknowledging it’s not permanent.

                I’m sorry, but the majority of what some of the women are saying here is jaw droppingly delusional and immature.

                • Howard Says:

                  It’s a question of the economics of sex. I am pretty sure men did not make sex the commodity. That flies in the face of reason. Women are the one who made sex the prize, the valuable thing. This of course worked against men. But in the strange way that life works, women created a monster that works against them too.

                  It’s a monster where women have to do all these little dances in their mind as to whether the guy wants the prixe only or them; or ways to create value in the hope that along the way he begins to value them too. And of course when they give the prize and they don’t get their expected reward, committment or at least continued interest, then they are bummed about the fact that they gave away a prize, rather than beign relived that they got a guy to show his true colors thus saving them later pain.

                  • The Reluctant Monogamist Says:

                    Although I would disagree with your statement that it is women that made sex a commodity/prize (after all, you can’t have commerce or play a game without both a buyer AND a seller) this really gets to the heart of the issue.

                    Too much emphasis is placed on sex. If sex is the barometer of how valuable you believe yourself to be, of course you are going to feel de-valued when you have given it away and don’t get anything in return. We all need to STOP thinking this way! We all need to to stop assigning value to others based on how often they have (or don’t have) sex.

                    • Crotch Rocket Says:

                      “If sex is the barometer of how valuable you believe yourself to be, …” This is the root of the problem. When women use sex this way, it means they secretly fear they don’t have any other value to a man, and if he leaves once he’s gotten it, that validation of their fear is devastating.

                      “We all need to STOP thinking this way!” Yes, but not for the reason you state. The problem is that many women really don’t have any other value to men. And blaming men for valuing the “wrong” things is a lot easier than an honest self-appraisal and self-improvement.

                      “We all need to to stop assigning value to others based on how often they have (or don’t have) sex.” It shouldn’t be the sole value, of course, but it is part of the value of a romantic partner. If you are or may be the only person I have sex with for the next 50+ years of my life, you bet I care about the quantity and quality of your sex life because it’s going to be my sex life as well. For anyone else, though? I couldn’t care less.

  8. Horace Says:

    “Cassie, he IS priming the pump so that you’ll sleep with him. That’s okay. You want to sleep with him, too. You’re not looking to pump and dump him, are you? We have to get past this idea that just because a man wants to have sex with us that he’s going to use us or that he’s a bad person. Our heads get filled with this idea from friends and movies and magazines. It’s absolute nonsense.”

    I tell my female friends this all the time. Men and women follow different motivations, but we’re all trying to get to the same place.

    It’s silly how women seem to fear that any man who wants to have sex with a woman is a player. These guys who “hit it and quit it” are the exception, not the rule. A super majority of guys are not getting a lot of girls. You have to be uncommonly hot or have a rare level of game for that to be your reality. Normal guys are not using girls for sex. They don’t have the option. For normal guys, having sex with a new girl is relatively rare, and it’s not so cavalierly taken for granted.

    To think that being biologically compelled toward sex means that we want nothing else from you is just retarded. It’s like suggesting that women, being biologically compelled toward commitment, don’t want sex. Few people are so one-dimensional.

  9. Selena Says:

    You’ve known him a week. Two dates. A handful or so of hours. You don’t know each other well at all, so it’s impossible to answer whether he genuinely likes you, just wants sex from you – or maybe both? Clearly he wanted sex (and so did you, correct?), but since he didn’t get it – that might determine how persistent he is in getting to know you. Don’t ask him out on date 3. He knows from the make out session, you like him -ahem, “in that way”. I’ll assume he’s adult enough to know women aren’t always comfortable having sex on the second date, even if they are turned on. If he’s not adult enough to know that, then be relieved if he doesn’t call you for a subsequent date.

    Cassie, you need to figure out where YOU stand as far as when you want to have sex with someone – don’t worry about the guy will/might think. Your body, your psyche. There are essentially two camps: those who see sex as a part of getting to know someone; and those who see sex as something you do with someone you’ve spent time getting to know and have a relationship with. Figure out which feels most comfortable to you. And proceed accordingly.

    If you’ve had some regrets sleeping with guys after excessive alcohol consumption…give some thought of not putting all the blame on the guys… could be time to cut back on the alcohol on dates. ;)

  10. Arbee Says:

    “If this, then that” statements about dating are sweeping and speculative and simply not true (and frankly, they are often made by people who are quick to write people off or afraid to be vulnerable).

    People don’t fall into absolute categories of how they are going to react and what their thoughts are (e.g., men are a certain way, women want this, etc.). People and interactions are far more complex than a lot of replies here acknowledge, and we have limited information about the people who write in and the situation.

    Relationships that have great potential are derailed all the time by people jumping to conclusions about what the other person thinks or wants or misinterprets how they acted.

    Just be real – don’t play games, be dishonest, passive, or judge without basis. Whether it’s casual sex or a serious relationship, the best way to deal with someone is to be yourself and take some emotional risks. It ain’t high school anymore – if you want to be with someone who is decent and treats you well, step away from all the stereotypes and generalizations and ‘rules’ about gender and dating. Just be who you are and pursue what you want.

    If things don’t tend to work out and you are singing the same song over and over, then it’s time to look at yourself more deeply (or with help) to see what you get trapped in and get off that track. But if things do work out more often than not, go for what you want, be true to yourself, and keep at it. The right people (meaning the ones who can really handle a relationship if it’s serious or be good to you as a lover if it’s casual) will step up to the plate.

  11. Crotch Rocket Says:

    “how do I know if he genuinely likes me or he’s priming the pump so that I sleep with him. I have to admit that after that make out session I would love to sleep with him but I don’t want him to do the fade away.” That’s difficult to know; he probably doesn’t even know the answer himself at this point. Also, you are making a false dichotomy between a guy liking you and wanting to have sex with you. If a guy likes you, he’ll still want to have sex with you. So, you can’t use his desire for sex as any kind of measure of whether his interest is “genuine”, whatever that means.

    “can I ask him out for date 3 or should I wait for him to ask me?” He’s already asked you out twice, and you shut him down on the second date even though you wanted to sleep with him, so it seems the ball is in your court.

    “I don’t want to blow it by sleeping with him too soon” You won’t, unless the guy is the kind of hypocritical douchebag you don’t want to be with anyway. Either he’s interested in something more, in which case sex will help, or he’s not, in which case sex can do no harm. The only way to “blow it” is by waiting so long that he figures you’re not interested and moves on.

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