No Kids, No Marriage – When Do You Bring It Up?

In my 20s, I was about 70% sure that I didn’t want kids.  Of course, being young and without much life experience…I lived with a bit of a conflict about the wisdom of having kids to begin with.  The conflict, though, was more from the wisdom of being married….Legitimately, I held off on the subject because I was too busy with school, with finding myself, and then with establishing myself so that I could get on a good path in life.  That proved to be more difficult than I had originally anticipated (“Great Expectations,” as an older gentleman I know calls them), so I in no way, shape, or form wanted to be burdened with having a kid at that young age, and then being shackled to a life of penury in the form of menial jobs and child support.  I had seen enough glimpses of guys my own age at the time struggling, especially in a small city that was slowly dying because its industry was dying.  Ditto for being married and being in a relationship — though I now see the folly of staying too much away and not considering doing more to just be in casual sexual relationship.

One of the main reasons keeping me from entering into such relationships was that I never fully believed the younger women when they said that they never wanted kids.  These were the high-achieving types, mind you, doing well in college and setting themselves up for professional careers.  They were in their early to late 20s.  Part of me thought that, once they got closer to 30 or 35, the ticking clock would turn into a klaxon horn and then they’d be in the baby-rabies state.  To this day, I’m still not sure about how best to broach the subject should it ever come up.  Since moving here to DC, the longest I’ve dated a woman so far has been three months, and the subject of kids came up with just the one woman — who stated that she “wasn’t sure” if she wanted kids or not.  She was 35.  The other one, 38, never brought up the subject.  Never have I brought up the subject with any of the woman I’ve been dating or sleeping with.  I just keep mum and, on my online profiles, just leave the answer blank.  I’m not sure if that has translated into fewer hits, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it did. A friend of mine believes that I should bring up the subject immediately in order to screen out potential dating prospects.  I can see his wisdom, but as I’m not sure if those women are looking to have kids in the near future, especially the younger ones under 30, I don’t feel comfortable bringing it up.  This is along the lines of not volunteering too much information about yourself for fear of being disqualified too quickly.  It would be one thing if I successfully passed the tests and got her into bed, where she then is invested, and then I’d let her down easily if she brings up the subject.  It’s another thing where one feels that he doesn’t have too many options and doesn’t want them to disappear too quickly.  So, I work with my original strategy and say nothing.

Comments? – Phil, 40

Private Man’s delightful response:

Given that you are 40, don’t bring it up with women over 30. Career gals in their 30s and 40s without kids are so delusional about their own fertility that it’s laughable. They assume that getting pregnant over 30 is easy. Just always practice birth control and keep an eye on that condom once used. Until you actually get snipped, a woman will assume that she can change your mind about kids, no matter what you say in words. Even post-vasectomy, there are plenty of stories about a guy trying to have it reversed to appeal to his woman’s extreme baby rabies. Those guys are schmucks.
At my age, I’m not really chasing women who want kids. However, I occasionally run into an online dating profile of a late 30s to mid 40s dame who still wants kids. I don’t know if she wants her own or to become a step-mom. Regardless, I never send a message to those women.  All in all, just don’t bring up the topic of kids. As you heading into your 40s, the women will likely assume you don’t want kids unless they think they can change your mind. It helps being in a major metro area like DC where career comes first, regardless of gender. The most dangerous dames will the ones in their late 20s. As for me, single moms with kids in the house are for the harem, nothing more.

They assume that getting pregnant over 30 is easy.

Well, it’s not as difficult as you seem to think. Actually, depending on the woman and her medical/family history, it’s probably not even difficult at all. I do so love when men pontificate about the female reproductive system as though they actually know how it all works. Do I think it’s wise to have children beyond a certain age? No. But there is so much more involved than her eggs and your sperm. Depending on family history, a woman can conceive and give birth to a very healthy child well in to her late thirties. Yes, they can even do so into their early forties.  I just don’t advocate that based on my personal experience.

I don’t think Phil or anybody should go out of their way to state in their profile that they don’t want children. That’s a conversation to have when the two people are actually considering a relationship. And before anybody starts with the “Why waste their/my time?” complaint, let me add this. Look, y’all need to get over the whole “waste of my time” issue. You really do.”Ugh…the whole texting back and forth to set up a date thing is such a waste of time!” No, it’s really not. It’s actually a total of about 10 minutes. If you’re choosing to wait by your phone and putting off doing other things, then you are the one wasting your time.

Same goes for dating someone and waiting to reveal that you don’t want kids. What are we talking…3-5 dates? Nobody says you have to stop dating anybody else. Figure out if you even want a relationship with that person before unloading all that stuff. Should it come up naturally, then by all means go with the moment. But you don’t need to announce it.

To this day, I’m still not sure about how best to broach the subject should it ever come up.

If you can fit it in to the conversation in a way that doesn’t sound accusatory, then feel free. But make a point to address this issue too soon and you’ll look incredibly foolish. You don’t even know how she feels about you, let alone kids. Relax. If she brings it up, you just be honest. Simple. Yes, you might lose out on a few weeks or months of sex and companionship if you say you’re not sure or no. But which is worse….masturbating for a couple weeks while you date more women, or  getting stuck in a situation where you’ll end up feeling trapped and living a lie for a few months?

I wonder how you broach the topic of marriage and how that isn’t on your To Do list, either. When does that come up? I’d think that would be the opportune time to address the fact that you don’t want kids.

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it, too. You’re 40 and you want to date women in their late twenties and early  to mid thirties, but they must not want kids or not pressure you about it. Well, then date women in their forties.  Or only date women who state in their profile that they don’t want kids. But then she’s considered unfeminine or “too career focused.”  You also want the sex but you want to avoid any possibly uncomfortable conversations.  Sorry, sweetheart. You need to accept the reality of where you’re at in your life.

You want it to be easy. That’s just not a realistic expectation for someone with your specific requirements and age. Something is going to have to give.

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90 Responses to “No Kids, No Marriage – When Do You Bring It Up?”

  1. jaclyn Says:

    I wouldn’t assume that a woman in her 40s who lists wanting a child in her online dating profile is delusional. She may be willing to adopt, may be willing to use donor eggs, or may know that women in her family tend to go through menopause late (which doesn’t guarantee that she will undergo menopause late, but makes it more likely that she will).

    Phil, I think you have an obligation to disclose your desire not to have children before entering a long term relationship. If a woman chooses to continue dating you even though you have clearly told her how you feel in the hopes that she can change your mind, then it is her mistake. But if you see that happening, you should break up with her since the relationship won’t have a future. Best of luck to you.

    • DC Phil Says:

      In theory, I agree. In practice, that might be something different. As a rule of thumb, I’m not going to broach the subject until she does, because, as Moxie said, it’s not a good idea to bring up the subject when you barely know the other person. The same goes for wanting a LTR and possibly marriage. Only time will tell. After all, you might be willing to have a LTR with someone and then find out some possible dealbreakers that weren’t there before: e.g., drug addiction and/or a serious criminal record.

    • Howard Says:

      That word menopause seems to confuse women. Long before menopause women fertility rates decline. Just google it, it’s easy to find out. Women over 45 have less than1% chance of getting pregnant, with their own eggs. And if they get pregnant, donor eggs or not, the miscarriage rate is over 50%.

      Over 40, the fertility rate is 5% vs 25% in her twenties. And if she gets pregnant, the miscarriage rate is 33% vs 5% in her twenties. So if you do do the math, over 40, she has about 3% of the chances she had in her twenties, of producing a baby using normal means. Over 45, she has .04% of her chances in her twenties.

      Over 35 is not too bad but not so easy. 10% fertility rate and 25% miscarriage rate. So she has 8% of the chances she had back in her twenties of producing a child.

      I have not even gotten into male sperm count, which is another limiting factor. And then the thousand pound elephant is down syndrome incidence which increases with age of pregnancy. One in 350 after 35. One in 38 after 40.

      Yes, women are delusional about their body.

  2. icara Says:

    Phil, I agree with Moxie. In my observation (personal experience, friends’ experience) the fertility line tends to be around 42-43. If you date a woman that age or older who says she wants kids, chances are she’ll be very up front about it. But typically, women that age or older have accepted their childless status and are moving on.

    Not all women want to get married, either. I’d venture a guess that you’re probably missing a demographic with similar goals to yours — divorced women in their forties with kids that are grown up and out of the house.

    • DC Phil Says:

      There are exceptions, of course. I was dating a very cute 28 yr old shortly before last Thanksgiving who told me, on our first date that her intention was to stay at home with the baby for the first year while her husband worked and that she broke it off with her previous boyfriend of one year because she wanted kids and he didn’t. This is the FIRST DATE, mind you.

      Now, I don’t know about you, but I’ve always considered it poor form to bring up such a subject in the beginning. After all, you scarcely know the person. A friend of mine believes that what this girl did was a good idea, because she was up-front. I didn’t agree.

      Not surprisingly, when she did bring this up, I felt very uncomfortable and was this way throughout the entire three weeks I was with her.

      • Chester Says:

        It sounds to me that what she did worked. I think guys who want kids would not be uncomfortable with that; and would have asked her out a second time. Although it may have made you feel uncomfortable at the moment, that discomfort probably disuaded you from asking her out a second time… so I would say her approach was successful in weeding out guys quickly who don’t want children.

        I would appear to me that bringing up these issues early benefits people who want to have children because there is a real time constraint. Bringing up these things later benefits those who don’t want children because there is not time contraint.

        • DC Phil Says:

          Eh, there’s more to the story . . .

          I did end up going out with her more than once, and slept with her a couple of times. Great sex, but she also was a bit emotionally unstable.

          My interpretation was that she was in a hurry to get married and have kids, and she was willing to find someone that fit the bill (older, employed, stable, easy to talk to and not “douchey,” and intelligent) and offer sex to keep him. It might have worked had she not eventually convinced herself that I didn’t like her and that I didn’t want to spend time with her, when logistics (i.e., she lives out in the sticks and I don’t have a car) prevented me from seeing her more regularly.

          So, one dark and rainy night, she stormed out of the bar in tears and never called me again . . .

          • Chester Says:

            “it might have worked…”?

            It never would have worked because she wants kids and you don’t. She has been very open with what she wants and you are continuing knowing full well that you will never give her what she is looking for in a relationship.

            Perhaps she was sensing that you were not authentic.

          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            “It might have worked had she not eventually convinced herself that I didn’t like her …” Um, no, it wouldn’t have worked because you had mutually exclusive goals, and you obviously didn’t like her that much if you were willing to lead her on by not telling her so as soon as you discovered that incompatibility. And, when she eventually figured out on her own what an asshole you were being, she dumped you for it. Good for her.

    • DC Phil Says:

      Also, on the subject of women in their 40s . . .

      Because I lack the time to go out to social mixers in order to meet women, I rely on online means at the moment. 40 + women without kids are very rare, at least those that I want to date. Those that have contacted me outright are usually divorced mothers to whom time wasn’t kind and are smelling of desperation. Not my cup of tea.

      The majority of the women I see online are 30-somethings. No doubt they’re in the market to find a husband.

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        I rely on online means at the moment. 40 + women without kids are very rare,

        I find that had to believe. I’m on OKCupid and Match every other day reviewing profiles and come across a lot of profiles of women who are 38-45, no kids, and who are in great shape. Granted, there are just as many who appear to have let themselves go or who don’t take very good care of themselves or seem stunted in some way. But there are plenty who appear to be pretty stable and available. But it seems all those women get filtered out because they don’t come across feminine enough or immediately are assumed to be obsessed with their jobs and that’s why they’re single. Look, I have no doubt that some of those women are emotionally crippled in some way. No doubt. But there are many women who aren’t. There are women who have figured out that maybe what they’ve been doing hasn’t worked for them and who have figured their issues out or have a decent grasp on them. They do exist.

        I think there are a lot of women in your age range who either have been married and aren’t looking to rush in to anything or who have decided marriage isn’t for them. I just think you’re greatly underestimating your options because you have certain ideas in your head about what we’re all like.

        • DC Phil Says:

          Allow me to clarify . . .

          You’re correct. There are women in that age range that are in great shape and who seem to have their act together. Trouble is, they don’t message me, nor do all of them care to send a message in reply to ones that I send at first. Read what PM has had to say about the challenges men have with online dating. The onus is on men to make the first move, and they might get — in his estimation — a less-than 40% response rate. Not a good response rate, IMO. Add to that the dangers of being disqualified for trivial reasons because the women online have an inflated sense of their self-worth because of all of the emails they get. PM is correct in that this is definitely the case with over-30s.

          I think you’re belaboring the point about the women getting filtered because of lack of femininity or something else that sends up a warning flag so that they’re skipped over. Again, PM has some good posts on this. Also remember that you’re approaching this from the perspective of a woman, not a man.

          Ultimately, I have to meet with the woman in person to make a final decision. I’ve been on dates where it was clear that I was into the woman, but she wasn’t into me; vice-versa; and I disqualified her based on something that I couldn’t get past (e.g., fat). I won’t do something really asinine like disqualify a woman because she has a cat. That’s just excessive. But, if she has more than three cats, then I start to wonder.

          “Femininity,” like beauty, to me, is in the eye of the beholder. Trust me, I’ve been out with women who are nowhere near the kind of feminiity that I’ve experienced with some Eastern European or Asian women. Does that mean I’d flat-out disqualify these American women? Nope, not at all. I can handle her less appealing traits if they’re balanced with more positives. Ditto for her focus on her career. In my other comment, I mentioned about how some of these women are just SO busy that they never seem to have the time to date, no matter how attractive they are or how together they seem to be. To me, that shows misplaced priorities. If you don’t have the time, you shouldn’t be dating.

  3. icara Says:

    The other point to be made is that if you get snipped, the subject will come up naturally with the subject of birth control. If you don’t, you’re signaling that you’re keeping your options open. Sorry if that seems harsh, but it’s the truth. If it’s really non-negotiable, why not make it impossible? Otherwise, quite frankly, women who don’t want kids might be afraid you’ll pull a switcheroo on *them*, possibly past the age where it’s physically an option for them. Don’t laugh, I’ve seen it happen!

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “why not make it impossible?” At least where I live, urologists won’t do a vasectomy on a single, childless man. And for a married man, the wife’s written consent is required.

      • JS Says:

        Really? Is that bit true about the written consent? If so, that pisses me off and I’m a woman. Just like abortion is a woman’s body and she should be her sole choice whether she is married or not, a man’s decision is his body and whether to get a vasectomy should be his sole choice. The wife should have NO legal say in the matter (in a marriage obviously, she will make her opinion known, just as a man would regarding an abortion). But no doctor or court should recognize her opinion has carrying any importance legally.

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “The wife should have NO legal say in the matter” It’s not a matter of law. The doctors could do it; they just refuse to, just as other doctors refuse to perform tubal ligations and such for childless women or without their husband’s consent. While Planned Parenthood exists to provide such “morally objectionable” services to women, unfortunately there is no similar organization to serve men.

        • Cricri Says:

          You can’t compare having an abortion with having a vasectomy, these are two different things. In one an embryo is already there while in the other case, we’re simply removing the possibility of conception. I think it is right for doctors to demand the agreement of the other spouse in both cases just because he has no idea what their family plan is. What if both had agreed to marry and have children and one “cheats” the other out of that deal? Isn’t that ground for divorce?

      • SJ Says:

        Wow. That bit about the legal consent of the wife doesn’t ring right. Shuuld the wife know? hell yes…and be involved in the decisino, if the marriage is worth a hoot. But the decision is ultimately his, just like the decision regardng a woman’s body are hers.

        As for the “won’t vasectomize an younger childless male” – that is 100% up to the doctor. The ones I saw only felt the need to counsel you about the “irreversibility” of the procedure as a CYA move.

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “The ones I saw only felt the need to counsel you about the “irreversibility” of the procedure as a CYA move.” That’s a BS move; on the way to/from the office, I see half a dozen billboards advertising vasectomy reversals.

          I can’t wait until RISUG is finally approved, which should be in the next few years. Vasectomies will be obsolete overnight, and every guy who isn’t actively trying to have children will be lining up for a shot–and there will be absolutely no legitimate reason for doctors to refuse to do it.

  4. PhillyGal Says:

    There’s a very high level of entitlement to both Phil and PrivateMan’s response that gets under my skin, but here’s what really gets me. Why does every guy assume women are baby crazy? I get it, the majority of women on the planet will have children at some point. Ok.

    But in this society where we have a lot more options in life, especially in a city like Washington DC, why assume that every woman you meet is sizing you up to deem your sperm father-worthy? I don’t want to have children, but I don’t run around telling every guy that I meet. When it naturally comes up, ok. Let’s chat. Just get to know the person and see what happens from there.

    If a woman is so presumptuous as to assume you’d become her baby daddy after a few dates, she needs a wake up call too.

    • BruceWayne Says:

      Thank you!

      Also, Private Man telling this guy to watch the condom after its used it just insulting and ridiculous.

      Also, my mother had all of her children in her 30’s, and they are all perfectly healthy. Her last one was a surprise at 34. So yeah, thirties is totally fine for babies.

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        My mom was 40 when she had me. Of course, she died seven years later from estrogen related cancer that was conected to her pregnancies. But, um, I was born healthy.

        • DC Phil Says:

          And I’ve heard about this before. Sure, you were born healthy, but was it worth it to your mother to leave you when you were 7?

          Only you can answer that. Just my thoughts.

          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            Had my mother not been irrationally afraid of doctors and suffered from bad anxiety, she probably would have lived much longer.

            I wasn’t planned. I was an Ooops Baby. Its not like she was trying for a baby. She wasn’t. But knowing how religous she was, I’m sure despite dying she would say it was worth it or God’s plan or whatever. Was it worth it to me? No. No it wasn’t. My development was absolutely negatively affected by the lack of that relationship. I’m sure its a main reason why I don’t want chilldren. Abandoning a child is probably the most selfish thing a person can do. As much as a feel bad for my mother for how terrified she w of doctors , I don’t know if I will ever forgive her for not pushing through her fear so that she could be with her children longer.
            My sisters have all gone in the opposite direction. Radical mastectomies, hystorectomies , genetic testing. All so they won’t be taken away from their children.

            • Chester Says:

              “Of course, she died seven years later…” you say that as if the life expectancy for these women is 7 years. Life expectancy of a 42 yo women is 40 more years; if the LE is that much lower for women who had children over 40, I was not aware of it. I will bet your mother was not aware of it either.

              “I don’t know if i will ever forgive her…” that’s a lot unforgiving…and a lot of resentment.
              Is it your lack of relationship with your mother the main reason for not wanting kids or is it your resentment? I want kids,and sister had kids…..

              So my mother had me at 40 also; and she died when I was 5. My sister blamed her; I blamed my father. But I have gotten over this by realizing the following:
              1. Parents do truly love their children and they are doing the best they can with what they know.
              2. The access to knowledge, internet, etc was almost non-existant in their day.
              3. Her dying was a greater loss for the her than for you or I; we are still living.
              4. Life is what it is. if your hypothetical choice is your present life or not to be born at all, I think you have too much to be grateful for, too much to live for, and too many things to enjoy in life.
              5. Your life is the only one that suffers from this unforgiveness and resentment.
              6. No matter what crazy things your parents may have done to you, not matter how screwed up their mistakes may seem, remember #1 because it is true.

              I mean this out of love, I’m not used to sharing like this, so please don’t misconstrue this negatively, I hope you take this in a positive light.

      • Snowflake Says:

        My boss just told me of his close friends who are 48 (husband) and 46 (wife). Were told they were unable to conceive and the wife just told my boss’s wife she is 6 months pregnant. Married for 20 plus years. My boss’s wifes brother had their 3rd kid (an oops baby) at 40. Having babies is not a matter of age anymore. Any woman can get pregnant at any age.

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          That doesn’t mean they should. I’m sorry, but it;s just selfish to get pregnant in your 40’s. I say this to both men and women. When I would come across a guy’s profile and he was in his early to mid forties and still wanted kids, I just thought it was selfish and vain. You want kids? Then maybe you should have planned better. Having such a wide age gap between the parent and child makes the relationship that much more difficult. Not only that, but do you really want to be in your 60’s and still working so you can send your kid to college or pay for a wedding or what have you?

          Worse, do you really want to die on them when they’re still in their 20’s? Isn’t the point of having children to watch them grow up and be there to help them learn how to get through certain things?

          • Snowflake Says:

            Yes I completely agree with you. Having kids is not easy, and very physically challenging. People have to be more concious and aware of this. Yes I agree all I am saying is to assume someone cannot get preg or the odds are not in their favour is plain ignorant and careless. Its blatantly obvious any woman can get pregnant at any age. There is not sure fire way to prevent it.

            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              Right, but it’s highly unlikely that your co-worker’s wife got pregnant naturally. Not at 46. That had to involve drugs or other treatments at some point. Really think about what those procedures do to a woman’s body and to the couple.

              • dimplz Says:

                I’m torn on this. You can have a baby at 28 and die during childbirth, get hit by a bus, terminally ill whatever. I think there are more health risks at a later age, but who am I to tell people when they should or shouldn’t have kids? I’m not going to take care of their kids when they pass. To each their own.

                • Crotch Rocket Says:

                  “I’m not going to take care of their kids when they pass.” Who do you think pays the taxes that support the adoption/foster care agency that will have to take care of their kids?

                  • dimplz Says:

                    I would like to know the percentage of adoptions and foster care cases that occur as a result of aging parents having babies, because I’m sure it’s nowhere near the amount that result from teen pregnancies, and we pay for that too.

                    • Crotch Rocket Says:

                      A fair point, but it’s completely irrelevant to the question at hand.

                    • dimplz Says:

                      Both populations would not be able to provide for their children. In my example, teenagers are too young. In your example, the parents will be too old and most likely die. Both examples provide a financial burden to taxpayers, but I’m sure things like Social Security or a savings account for their child will be able to provide for their children (as was the case when my father died at 31) and the older parents would have paid into SS (and hopefully have more funds set up for their children), while the teens most likely haven’t worked a day in their life.

                  • Saj Says:

                    I had a baby at 26 and she has a few birth defects (no drugs, alcohol, cigs)

                    My mom had me and my sister at 36 and we were healthy as can be. We all can’t live our lives by statistics.

          • JS Says:

            “When I would come across a guy’s profile and he was in his early to mid forties and still wanted kids, I just thought it was selfish and vain. You want kids? Then maybe you should have planned better.”

            Planned better? So they should have married a woman who they didnt love when they were in their 20s and more parentally age-appropriate (in your mind). You cannot plan every thing in your life….love, marriage, babies don’t always happen on “our” time-table. There are so many factors / variables to consider or maybe those guys did marry and then the woman had fertility issues and for unrelated reasons they divorced and now he still wants kids.

            Plus…as for your argument of being too old at weddings/graduations or dying when the kid is in its 20s: First, people are living way longer than ever so 60 at a graduation isnt what 60 used to be. Second, parents can die at any age (you and I both know this first hand). Third, parents dying in your 20s….sorry but I’ve seen two friends in their 40s recently go through a parent’s death and whether you are 25, 45 or 65 losing a parent sucks and is just as traumatic. I have a friend whose father died 3 yrs ago when she was 24 and she is far more well-adjusted to it than my aunt who is 63 and her parents died when she was in her late 40s & early 50s. Ability to handle grief and trauma as an adult (of any age) comes down to temperment more than age.

            Life is a crap shoot…my parents met at 17, married at 23, had me at 27, my sister at 33 and my dad was dead and my mother a widow at 37. They “planned better”…but ya know as they say, you want to make God laugh, tell him “your” plans.

            I dont see why people should judge / criticize others for their life choices that have nothing to do with them and isn’t hurting anyone else and even if all your concerns about the child (old parents / dead parents) came true….1) ask that child if it wishes that it had never been born instead of dealing with some hard you really think he/she will say “I wish my 40 yr old mother and 45 yr old father had just not given me life”??? I dont. 2) these concerns are not a certainty…. you’re always telling everyone to stop living their life in fear, but your rationale is VERY fear-based.

            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              So they should have married a woman who they didnt love when they were in their 20s and more parentally age-appropriate (in your mind).

              No, they should have made better choices so that they weren’t 40-45 and still hoping to procreate. Or they should let it go and accept their situation and the part they played in it rather than rationalize it at the expense of a child’s well being. They should have addressed and dealt with whatever issues existed that led them to either be in a bad/unsuitable relationship, jump in to a relationship/marriage too quickly or made them undesirable to the opposite sex.

              First, people are living way longer than ever so 60 at a graduation isnt what 60 used to be.

              But the goal shouldn’t be to hopefully get to 70. And even then if you’re 45 when the child is born your child is only 25 years old. Call me crazy, but I view marriage they way I view having children. Neither are something you do “for awhile.” It’s a life long commitment. Having a child when you know there is a really good chance you’ll be dead before it turns 30 is selfish. That gives the parent a life span of 75 years. We’re not living until 80 or 85. (Ad I say that with a parent of 87, a rarity.) The average life span is still pretty much the same as it’s always been for the last 10 years. Let’s no re-write science to fit a particular rationalization.

              Second, parents can die at any age (you and I both know this first hand). Third, parents dying in your 20s….sorry but I’ve seen two friends in their 40s recently go through a parent’s death and whether you are 25, 45 or 65 losing a parent sucks and is just as traumatic.

              No. Losing a parent at 25 is FAR MORE traumatic than losing them at 45. You can not even compare the affects that two people of such different ages experience. The younger the child, the more traumatic the loss. The older the child, the less traumatic because they’ve had time to develop the necessary coping skills.

              Life is a crap shoot

              It’s really not. The average family does not experience what we experienced. But it is common sense that the older you get before having kids, the less time you’ll be able to spend with them.

              • JS Says:

                It is all still judging other people for decisions that do not affect you.

                And as I wrote in the above: If you ask that 25 yr old “child” if it wishes that it had never been born instead of dealing with some hard you really think he/she will say “I wish my 40 yr old mother and 45 yr old father had just not given me life”??? I dont.

                And overall, your entire argument is very FEAR-based. Yes, shitty things can happen, they can always happen and often do.

                If it’s not parents dying young, then it’s being molested or getting raped, or mugged or beaten by a spouse/partner or being in huge accident or witnessing someone get killed in front of you or having an drug/alcohol/gambling addiction or suffering an eating disorder or being depressed/bipolar/other mental illness or getting kidnapped or being the victim of a violent crime/getting shot or watching a friend die or being homeless or being really poor/unemployable or having a major health problem or being cheated on or having several miscarriages….the list goes on and on…most people will have one or more on the above list happen at some point.

                NO ONE gets through this life without some trauma so really at the end of the day, when you have the choice of existing with a life containing some trauma or not existing in the first place….is there really a choice. No, there isn’t. Life is a near-death experience. You may as well enjoy the good because there will be a lot of bad no matter how careful you are.

          • DC Phil Says:

            Incidentally, some of my 30-something female friends tell me of them running into men the same age or older who are in a hurry to have kids. So, I realize that it can run both ways.

            NOT wanting kids, though, is still very uncommon, despite being more accepted now than it was in the past.

            Also, good comment on being there for your kids. Indeed, even if you were to live until 80 or 90 and watch the kids you had at 40-something grow up, do you have the same kind of energy at 40-something that you had at 20-something? Also consider how long you’d have to work in order to support the kids through school, how long you’d have to house them when they (inevitably, anymore) return to the roost because of a lousy job market, and picking up the tab for car payments, etc. that they might have.

      • DC Phil Says:

        The comment about the condom comes from Tom Leykis’s shows. Listen to some of them and see what you think.

        Of course, Tom lives in LA and I’m assuming that this sort of thing happens more commonly than we’re led to believe.

        Calling this “insulting” implies that the woman is always aboveboard with what she says and her actions are congruent with what she says. Not always the case, unfortunately.

        • DC Phil Says:

          I forgot to add another concern is what would happen in the event the woman accidentally got pregnant and what she’d decide. This is if the condom breaks, if she forgets her birth control, if she’s on any medication that could interfere with the birth control, etc.

          Would she keep the baby or abort it? Hard to say. I have yet to meet a woman who has said that she’d abort the baby if that were to happen. On the flip side, I do know women who are smart enough to get the morning-after pill in the event the condom breaks or if they have drunken sex with a guy and forget the birth control. None of them have wound up pregnant, though.

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “Why does every guy assume women are baby crazy?” Because most of y’all are. Perhaps you don’t see it, but we certainly do.

      • VJ Says:

        In the age cohort we’re talking about, 40-50? About 90% of women will have had children and/Or have been mothers to some during some stage of their lives. Check the US Census Vital Stats on that. Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • fuzzilla Says:

      I don’t see what’s wrong with being upfront about it…I don’t think it necessarily bespeaks entitlement or thinkin’ all the laydeez be sizin’ up their sperm. It’s just that the sooner you know you’re not on the same page, the less time you’ll waste. It’s like knowing they’re moving out of town in six months. You don’t plan six months in advance with someone you’ve had 1-2 dates, but if you know right outta the gate that they’re leaving, you’d probably adjust your actions and expectations accordingly.

      I do think the real issue is what they’d probably lose out on by just being upfront (thinning the pool of interested 20-somethings). Entitlement there? Perhaps. It’s like the question was really “how do I get what I want while dancing around the truth?”

      • DC Phil Says:

        1. Indeed, which is why I always have to wonder about these women who work in international development, etc, or who travel a lot and who, at least in their online profiles, express an interest in dating. Uh, sorry . . . but if you say that you’re usually out of the country for three months at a time, or haven’t checked your profile in six months, you don’t have time to date. Do us all a favor and take down your profile, or at least suspend it until you have the time.

        Ditto for women who wnat to “squeeze me in” to their busy life, and put a time constraint on me for the first date. If that happens, then I tell them to reschedule it when they’re not so busy. Some do, some don’t. A good way to gauge interest, I guess.

        2. Yep, the real issue is how to address the dwindling herd if one is upfront. Unfortunately, I’m no longer in my 20s and so can’t date women my own age. “Dancing around the truth” is kind of what it is. But, no different than the falsehoods that women usually tell about themselves in order to get what they want.

    • DC Phil Says:

      1. What’s the sense of entitlement? Is this any different than women wanting someone that’s her equal or better, but then chooses to overlook his good qualities becuase she’s holding out for something better?

      2. For me, I don’t assume that every women is baby-crazy. I’m well aware of the fact that there are professional women for whom kids aren’t an option. That’s their choice and they made that choice (hopefully willingly). But, there are other women with similar backgrounds who probably AREN’T childless by choice, because of circumstances that are outside of her control, or that she was pining for something that wasn’t there, like her knight in shining armor.

      As a woman’s biological destiny on this planet is to have babies, I think it’s safe to assume that the drive will always be there, operating at the subconscious level. As we have higher brain functions and can decide whether or not we act on those primal urges, some women can fight them and decide that kids aren’t for her. That, in my experience, is more common among professional women. Not so much for women from more traditional societies. (Trust me, I see it all the time here in DC with the Latinos.)

      Only time will tell and when the woman reaches crunch time will her true desires come out concerning kids. This is based on my experience.

  5. Cricri Says:

    Agree with Moxie, you should date women your age; they might actually know how restricted their options are. Younger women might not know as of now if they want children and later decide they want some. Most people feel lukewarm about kids until they’re in a great relationship and having a child becomes another building block of their couple and family.
    OP has to accept his narrow pool because he wants something so specific; the earlier the better, you don’t want to get attached yourself to someone who doesn’t share your life plan. Regarding waiting to know if you want a relationship with someone, I say that would be too late, especially considering the ever changing criteria defining what a “true” relationship is.

    • DC Phil Says:

      “Most people feel lukewarm about kids until they’re in a great relationship and having a child becomes another building block of their couple and family.”

      You hit the nail right on the head. Usually, it’s one thing or a cluster of things that can tip a person to say “yea” or “nay.”

  6. offensivedan Says:

    Private man’s response was hillarious. Hahaha, dame. Anyway, look, if you are 40 years old and can pull off dating and bedding 20 year olds by all means proceed. Once they start talking about kids and you don’t like it, just fade out. You don’t owe these girls anything. Also, go out with older women and bed them, too. And before some of you dames go off on me, this is just the honest male perspective to this issue.

    As for single moms; yes, they are good for dating but nothing else. You certainly don’t want to marry this woman and have to take responsibility for a kid not of your loins. Screw that and a guy that does that is a schmuck.

    Actually, you guys in the north and tha tlive in bigger cities are lucky. At elast, you guys have options such as plenty of women who are odler, not married and childless. Here, in the crappy South where I live, most women by the time they are in their early 30s’ are divorced with three (3) kids.

    Finally, kids are too damn expensive.

    • DowntownAngel Says:

      I am a woman and I actually agree with this perspective :) A 40-yo guy who doesn’t want kids is fun to date in your twenties, and I did date such guys. They’re experienced, mature and have means to entertain you (well.. if they don’t than they usually dont get to date 20-somethings) and they usually keep their expectations low which is good during the time when you’re focused on your career or grad school, etc. Once a woman decides she’s dating for marriage – these over 40 child-free guys should be kicked to the curb right away though, but it’s a **woman’s** responsibility to filter them out. The woman should bring this subject up, and see what the reaction is… He just needs to be honest, if a woman asks if he wants kids – to make it absolutely clear that he doesn’t. It’s just the right thing to do

      • Kay Says:

        I totally agree. I dated 40 y/o in my 20’s. I didn’t want anything serious and they seemed to be in the same mindset. Now, that I’m 30, I’m not sure if I want children (I’m leaning more towards NOT) but I’m definitely dating for marriage. I’m no longer dating the 40 y/o who doesn’t want marriage and kids or those with the ‘been there, done that, don’t want to do again’ attitude. I obviously don’t bring this up on the first couple of dates but early on, you can pretty much tell where a person stands on the whole marriage and kids things. Obviously, don’t enter into a long term relationship w/o discussing it and don’t assume the other person may change their mind if you’re on different sides of the fence.

        Concerning a woman’s ‘childbearing age’, every woman isn’t on the baby train; that clock (if one does exist, I’ve yet to hear mine), doesn’t start ticking once we hit a certain age. Women in my family had healthy babies well into their mid 40’s; I don’t feel rushed to get pregnant and have kids. Your health determines your ability to get pregnant, not your age; you have to be healthy, and not just healthy looking).

      • DC Phil Says:

        Bingo! It’s about having fun at this point. I want to have my fun with a wide variety of women before it becomes infeasible. If she decides to drop me because she wants to get serious, then there’s usually someone else.

        • tall girl Says:

          Wait Phil – I’m confused… it sounds as though you were saying you felt like you were missing out by not having a more serious connection – you just don’t necessarily want the legal bind of marriage and definitely no kids. Did I misunderstand that? And now you are saying that you just want to have your fun, nothing serious, and cut and run whenevs. If that’s the case, why write about it all? It’s easy enough to do that, plenty of people do.

          As for thinking all women want babies… a lot do. But a significant number don’t.

          I’ve never felt particularly maternal – women I know kept telling me something would happen when I hit 30 and all of a sudden I would desire to have babies. I hit 30. Nothing happened. It’s not like I don’t desire not to have them, but I don’t desire to have them either – I just don’t think about it. The only time it is thought topic for me is when I run across discussions like this.

          I refuse to say I’m dead-set against having kids, because life is funny and things change. Who knows. But it’s highly unlikely I’ll have any, based on how my life has unfolded and how I’ve feel/felt about it. Why have kids at all if you feel indifferently about it?

          My point is this. There are plenty of women like me. I’m no exceptional flower in that sense. If you DO want a connection with someone that’s deeper, but you don’t want marriage and kids, you have a shot at that. It’s out there.

          Don’t just assume that because you are sitting across a person with ovaries, you have their life’s goals pegged already. Relax! Have fun! If the lady in question is determined to have kids & she takes you seriously, she will almost definitely tell you she wants children someday.

          Again, this is only based on my experience, but my women friends in their 30’s who want kids aren’t messing around too much… they usually lay their goals out there sooner rather than later, and if kids are part of that picture, it will be mentioned casually somehow.

          • DC Phil Says:

            “I refuse to say I’m dead-set against having kids, because life is funny and things change.”

            Bingo. My point has been that many women, when they say they want kids, are keeping their options open because, as yout put it, “life is funny and things change.” I have yet to meet a younger women who, in saying she didn’t want kids, get herself voluntarily sterilized.

            • Tall Girl Says:

              Uhhhh… Why would any woman choose to surgically alter herself when there are IUDs?

              All that aside – why did you write the post? Do you want no next to no attachment & sexual variety, or do you want a meaningful relationship without marriage or kids?

              • DC Phil Says:

                Right. There is the IUD. Keep forgetting about that one. :)

                I wrote the post to get a sense of where people stand on the subject of relationships and kids.

      • DC Phil Says:

        Incidentally, where did you find these 40-something guys? As I mentioned in the other comment, I don’t have a lot of time to meet younger women at social mixers, classes, etc., and bars/clubs are really a hit-or-miss proposition, due to lots of factors that aren’t in my control (e.g., competition, noise level). I don’t find many mid-20-somethings online (at least the ones that I’m currently using). Majority is 30-somethings.

        Also, how did you compare to your peers regarding the openness to date a guy in his 40s, mainly casually? What I mean is that, one early 20-something might say “no way” thinking the guy is “too old,” while a 20 yr old sitting next to her might have no problem with it. I’ve also thought this is a cultural thing, with American women more hung up about it than, say, a Filipina or Eastern European young woman.

    • OMG Says:

      Offensive Dan – You may need therapy as most men who talk like this actually really dislike women or have absolutely no repect for them whatsoever. This wasn’t an honest response from a male perspective…because if it is then I truly pity the male species that would identify with you. You are the ego guy that I sniff out on the first date and politely, I just don’t think this is going to work out. Really sorry.
      The original question this guy asked on this board was an honest question. It didn’t call for the miserable unhelpful judgement regarding percieved women’s trickery read here. To the guy who asked the question… Just explain to the women you are dating that you are not interested, nor never will be interested in having children. Period. Stick to your guns and let her know that you will. A mature, repectful woman will either agree or disagree with that verbal contract. And it IS a verbal contract/agreement. You are both responsible to make sure that pregnancy does not happen. And, realize that no contraception is 100 % effective so the only way to really avoid is abstinence.
      But, a simple inplanted IUD – and or condom should do the trick.
      As far as timing on when to tell a woman this information.. i wouldn’t take offense to being out for dinner in a casual conversation on the second or third date and broaching the subject. I mean, why not? If you made it through date number one..then there was obviously some interest to move forward to date number two. Build trust from the beginning…why get hit over the head with something a month down the line after momentum has built. (and this is for either party).

    • fuzzilla Says:

      >Anyway, look, if you are 40 years old and can pull off dating and bedding 20 year olds by all means proceed.<

      Well, sure. If you're not hurting anyone and the situation's making you both happy, then do what you like. However…the operative word here is "if."

  7. JS Says:

    If the OP is so worried about having “options” and not losing out on bedding the women he is attracted to, he should just have FWB or NSA partners (non-committed, non-monogamous) who are in their mid-20s and not ready for anything serious or in their mid-to-late 40s divorcees…there are plenty of women who dont want a marriage or kids…because either a) they think they will be in 3-4 yrs or b) they already did that and the kids are grown…. He should just have a swingin’ playboy life and don’t get into any relationships and then he truly can have his cake and eat it too.

    • DC Phil Says:

      In theory, FWB or NSA would work. Trouble is, where to find them, really? Sure, in the big cities, like DC, they’re easier to find than in a smaller town. But, they might not always be of the best quality. Many complain about the DC dating scene being full of high-maintenance women and I’ve seen my fair share of them. But, there are bright spots, like many foreign women, with whom I seem to click better, overall.

      As for the older ones, lesser quality. Not across the board, mind you, but more common than in the 20-somethings. The flip side is that the maturity of 20-somethings can vary widely. Early 20-somethings mean more immaturity, generally speaking, regardless if they own their own house, etc.

      It’s a matter of balance and finding the sweet spot. Mine, so I’ve noticed, is in the 28-35 age range. The youngest I’ve dated has been 26, the oldest 40.

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        In theory, FWB or NSA would work. Trouble is, where to find them, really?

        I’d think the late thirties/early forties women would be prime options. Between the ones incapable of having an actual relationship to the divorced ones just looking for something casual, I would think you would have a bevvy of options.

        I’m really not understanding why all of this is so hard or complicated for you.

        As for the older ones, lesser quality.

        Jesus Christ. You’re just looking for casual sex, not a life partner. Now you want your FWB to be feminine and hot and emotionally healthy? This is what I mean by something has to give. The women in their twenties want kids. The women in their late thirties/early forties are “lesser quality.” The women in their early thirties want marriage. Phil, you’re 40 and offer very little other than sex and marginal companionship. You don’t get to be so picky. Pick a vagina, any vagina, and just go with it and stop analyzing it to death.

        • DC Phil Says:

          “Phil, you’re 40 and offer very little other than sex and marginal companionship.”


          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            Explain what? You don’t want marriage. You don’t want kids. You don’t appear to want anything terribly substantive or long term. You’d settle for a FWB/NSA situation.

            The women you want don’t have to settle for you. If they’re in to casual situations or not looking for commitment, and they’re attractive and “not crazy” then there are men lining up to date them. You’re overanalyzing this to the minutiae, which shows a lack of experience and confidence. Why should a woman settle for that?

            I’m sorry to be so brash but, Phil, I’m a 43 year old woman in Manhattan and I have no trouble meeting men who don’t want kids and who offer anything from an ongoing casual arrangment to a relationship. If I’m not having that much trouble I don’t understand how you could be.

            • DC Phil Says:

              I meant, explain what you mean by having little to offer.

              Indeed, the women I want don’t have to settle for me. There’s the rub. What I want, THEY might not want — or might not want it with me. They have other options. I understand and accept this.

              Lack of experience and confidence? Yes, true. Still working on that and working hard. Better now than I was a year ago, but still have some ways to go.

              Here’s something else to gnaw on . . .

              One of my female friends (38) is from Chicago. For the most part, she doesn’t like the DC dating scene for two reasons. First, there’s the “DC douchebag.” ‘Nuff said. Second, in her view, many people here in DC strike her as more “conservative” than in Chicago. That is, there seem to be many people who are more interested in getitng married than in having casual relationships. I can’t confirm or deny what she says, but it does make me wonder sometimes. She believes that Chicago folks are more easy-going and less career-focused as DC folks are. That’s probably due to it being the Midwest, and I can confirm this, being from the Midwest myself.

              My point: DC might not be the best market for what I’m looking for, or I might need to supplement it with other places, like Baltimore or maybe even NYC. The latter has far more people than DC does, so a much larger dating pool. I also assume that NYC has more of the casual-relationship seekers.

              • JS Says:

                “I meant, explain what you mean by having little to offer.”

                Moxie did explain: “Explain what? You don’t want marriage. You don’t want kids. You don’t appear to want anything terribly substantive or long term. You’d settle for a FWB/NSA situation.”

                You’re not offering women the potential for marriage (which a lot of women want); you’re not offering them future children (which a lot of women want) and you’re not really offering a long-term relationship (as you said you’ve never made it past 3 months)….

                All you’re offering women is a roll in the hay and a few dinner dates. Think about it: what else are you providing….nothing….3-month or less relationships dont offer much emotional support, long-term companionship, etc.

                ….again….just screw and fade….men never seem to need instruction on this, they all seem to do it naturally but clearly, you need it to be written out…take them on a few dates, get them into bed, screw them for 3 weeks or less, meanwhile be doing this same routine with a few other girls and then fade when you hit 3 weeks…you’ll always have a rotation of lovers, they just won’t know they are on a time-clock that is quickly running out. You can even give them some BS excuse of “I got back together with an ex” or I thought I was ready for a relationship, but I realized I’m not and I dont want to waste your time” …or just fade without a trace….it wont be the first time she’s heard these BS lines (and she’ll probably believe you) and it wont be the first time someone faded.

                Again, where is the confusion???

            • DC Phil Says:

              “I’m a 43 year old woman in Manhattan and I have no trouble meeting men who don’t want kids and who offer anything from an ongoing casual arrangment to a relationship. If I’m not having that much trouble I don’t understand how you could be.”

              Key word = woman.

              I’m not a woman. Now, if you were a man, what would your strategy be?

              To be fair, I seem to be doing okay with what I have so far. My goal is to increase options and efficiency. As the man, the burden is on me. I don’t have women lined up outside of my door knocking, waiting to come in. Online is what I’ve been working with. I’m sure that I’d be doing better if I were out nearly every night of the week.

              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                Key word = woman.

                Other key words = Manhattan and 43.

                Phil, the problem isn’t your age or your location or the lack of “quality” women. It’s your analysis paralysis.

  8. AmyRose Says:

    I would be curious to know what the longest relationship was that the OP has ever had. The three month mark is generally the time when you make a further commitment in terms of a relationship, not talking marriage and babies. It sounds like there is a warped perspective and that might be the core of it. If you cant make it past a few months in a relationship then there are clearly underlying fears that the OP is not able to cope with correctly. Writing to Moxie, asking for assistance anwser the Dr. Phil question- “Is that/ How is that working for you?” – Obviously your current pattern has not worked for you. It appears that you are longing for a more substantial relationship, but until you address the apparent underlying anxieties you have about expectations and commitment you can be sure that you will forever be locked into the same dating pattern, same kind of women.

    I never had the baby rabies, but my friend in thier late 20’s are rampant with it. Its called hormones gentlemen. Like Moxie I have had some health issues and concerns about getting pregant throughout my life. Now I am in my 40’s and not exactly at peace with the whole idea of not being able to have a child- in theory. However I am in a commited relationship and on the path to marriage. We have talked about adopting but realistically I think we would both fare better with a dog.

    • DC Phil Says:

      The longest relationship, so far, has been three months. Two women. I wasn’t the one to end either one. I’ll never know the reason why they ended them, but I have my suspicions.

      And what do you believe the warped perspective is?

      • JS Says:

        “And what do you believe the warped perspective is?”

        Imagine a 40 yr old saying “I want a high paying job with great benefits but I dont want to work in an office and I dont want to work daytime hours. And I could settle for bartending or other non-office night jobs but the pay isnt super great.” Then you ask this 40-yr-old, what was the longest time you spent at one job and they say “Three months is the longest I’ve ever held onto a job.”

        What would you think about that 40 yrs old with their list of deal-breakers and demands and their limited long-term work experience (3-months at the longest)….wouldn’t you think that they have a warped perspective on careers/jobs????

        Just substitute “high-paying / benefits” for “no marriage”; “no daytime hrs” for “no kids”; and picking apart restaurant/night jobs for saying that “these women are lesser quality / immature / tend to be high maintenance” …and you’ll see why many people may think you have a warped perspective.

  9. J Says:

    I am 31 and do not wants kids. My biggest pet peeve are the idiots who say “Oh you’ll change your mind. You are young.” “Are you sure?” “You don’t mean that!”
    Well guess what I do mean it. I don’t enjoy children one bit. I would be a terrible parent.

    I thought that I could never find a man who felt the same way. I also don’t like traditional marriage.

    I resent the pressure our society puts on us to marry and have kids. It is as if there isn’t any other choice, or if you choose not too you are “weird,” or “lonely.” We have been brainwashed for centuries to think that marriage must result in a relationship and at the very least kids. It is a goal to be strived for. Well, not for me.
    I think if more people stood back and actually thought before they had kids, many who end up being bad parents just wouldn’t have had them if they felt that was an option.

    It is an insult to use the phrase “baby rabies” or whatever it was. Society is what makes women baby crazy. Not all us are. A baby is the worst thing I can imagine in my life.

    As for telling people; tell them once the relationship gets serious. Once the “are we monogamous?” question comes up. If they run, so be it, you were better off without them and their marriage and baby expectations.

    • LaRubia Says:

      AMEN! I’m 45 and have NEVER wanted kids; I’ve tried to date men with kids (3 times); did not work – I just have no interest whatsoever in kids. I’m looking for someone late 30s to mid-40s who does not have kids and also never wanted them – it IS a “non-negotiable” and I like to find this out before I even go on a date with someone – why waste time? I meet LOTS of guys who are in this category and have no problem meeting them.

  10. dimplz Says:

    “A baby is the worst thing I can imagine in my life. ” Consider yourself lucky if it’s the worst thing you can imagine. Maybe people tell you you will change your mind because you make statements like that and they think you haven’t fully matured yet.

  11. New_NYC_Resident Says:

    Phil – Brother!!! You asked if you should try out NYC?

    NYC is the best city in the world for a single guy in his 30s or 40s. I am 43, and have lived all over the country. I last lived in Boston, before moving to NYC a few years ago. NYC is heaven on earth for a single guy. I never knew how bad Boston was until i left. Where do i start?:

    I am only a slightly above average looking guy, and in NYC, i can have as much sex as i want. The only constraint is how many nights a week you want to go out on dates. Now when i say ‘as much sex as i want’, i do *not* mean picking up girls in clubs and taking them home (being a non-stud, i have not had much success doing that). I am talking about casual dating. Obviously, she will end things if you don’t want to get serious after a few months.

    But if you have the time and the energy, you can use Match to have a girl in the rotation every night of the week. At our age, these women would range from 30 to 50, and would be mostly hot. The strange thing about NYC (unlike Boston) is that ‘highly-sought-after’ women are on Match. I’ve dated a Fox News anchor, a former contestant in the Miss Croatia contest, the ‘Colombian Woman of the Year’, a stripper from Scores, a model from Ecuador, etc. ‘Day game’ is also important. I’ve had some success just asking women out during the day, and giving them my card.

    I’m not bragging or being arrogant here. In Boston, i was a nobody on the dating scene. I’m moderately handsome, at best. There’s just something special about NYC. Maybe it’s the better ratio. Maybe it’s because i’m a bit edgy/non-conformist (but still a sell-out at the same time), and that fits well in NYC. NYC has a great ‘edge’ and diversity that you wont find in DC, Bos, or Philly. Women of all flavors from all over the world. So many douchebag/dumb guys in NYC that talk about sex too soon and/or dont know how to play the game and/or are too obvious about trying for sex on the first date….so despite the competition with Wall St douches making $1m per year, you can still get the job done.

    Don’t believe me? Give NYC a ‘test-run’. I did it for a few weeks by living in a hotel. My decision was clinched after 3 nights. And oh by the way….i’m not rich. I live in a 200 sq ft studio and am a struggling entrepreneur. And yes, that’s a dealbreaker for some girls, while others dont give a hoot.

    Give it a shot, and good luck!

    • DC Phil Says:

      I’d say it’s the ratio in NYC, and a higher concentration of out-of-the-ordinary types. DC is obviously much smaller, and attracts a certain kind of animal becuase of the plentitude of government, policy, development, etc. job. I have such a job and am not about to give it up, and my job ties me to this area, unfortunately.

      But, NYC is good for weekend trips. It’s only a bus ride away and I know folks up there I can stay with.

  12. Freedom Says:

    I’m soo sooo sorry. I find these men laughable. No seriously! So eager to hold on to those youth that women in their own age are not acceptable. No let us really look at the logic before we even get to the question of babies. Moxie hit it dead on! You are 40…. 40!!!! 40!!!!! And you want girls 10-20 yrs younger than you! Had you been a female you would be labeled a cougar but I will just be frank, cus I am… Both dudes need to grow up! Any dude any their 40’s I met wants to control me like a doll and use me to brag to his friends and say he still has game… Seriously. I mean if they are gonna label women by their age and think they know them all stereo typing them … Then fine you are a immature, Vince why you are reaaalllyyy single. Sure I want kids but I’m not trying to get a dead beat for a father. But I ask you this, when you have these young girls and they don’t want to have kids I am sadly finding a large amount of men friends complaining about the maturity level difference. Crying in my ear how she used him…”blah blah blah”. Grow up. You want something that is rare so be honest about it and suck it up that this type of girl in her early 20’s to late 30’s is not gonna be exactly what you want and it’s a 3% chance. Let’s go to next step the fact neither know how a relationship operates. Cus you would know that’s too deep too soon! Only when you decide that the person is relationship material do you talk about that because she has to like your crazy bumm. Does anyone notice the control issues in this?! The girl can’t be the one to decide he’s not suitable. Lol. Idk I’m just glad the men around me are all strong and mature.
    Last point my mom had three healthy kids after the age of 35! All 2-3 yrs apart. My grandma and other friends have had kids in their early 40’s. Heidi klume, Haley Barry, Demi More, many many many women have healthy kids in their 40’s Stay out of our hoohaaaa and try to grow up first so when the girl that is a fit for you comes you have you maturity act together.

    • DC Phil Says:

      1. Comparing me to a cougar is skewed. The cougar phenomenon is recent. Older men dating (and sometimes marrying) younger women has been more established, and accepted.

      2. For the record, I’m not interested in controlling anyone, except to prevent harm to myself. I’m expressing a preference and if she, the younger woman, prefers me, more power to her.

      3. I agree that labeling women by age is very superficial. Same for rating them 1-10. But, it’s something guys do. Women have their own ranking systems and would most likely be the first to admit that they, too, are doing “what women do.”

      On the other hand, it stands to reason that men, generally speaking, are surface-oriented. Yes, younger women are more attractive by virtue of their youth and beauty, which is higher than it would be in older women. Younger women don’t usually have to work at it like older women do, unless the older ones are blessed with good genes. (Same goes for older men. I’m lucky, as a man, in that I’m over 6 ft, slim, and have a lean muscular look with no gut. Just a little bit thinning on top, but that’s negligible and easily fixed. In short, I fit the “look” of today.) It’s also a fact that American society wears down people with stress, frayed social networks, media, and processed food. (Processed food and other bad eating habits leads to fat, which is unattractive in both men and women.) When I was younger, I didn’t pay much attention to this. Now, at 40, I carefully watch a woman’s habits and then decide whether she’s taking care of herself or not. If the older woman is, then points for her I know that I’ve radically changed my eating habits, updated my wardrobe, and exercise at least three times a week. All positive changes at this time in my life.

      (To wit, the 38 yr old I was dating last year was thin and in shape from eating right and exercising. She had a good job, made good money, owned her own house, and was cultured. I’d have stayed with her longer if the relationship lasted longer. But, oh, well . . .)

      Also, to be fair, early 20-somethings, as you mentioned, are generally immature, due to their lack of life experience. Yeah, what would I, a 40 yr old, have in common with a 22 yr old? But, that assumes that I’m dating her for her mind. (And you can figure that one out.) If I wanted to have deep discussions about life or art or music, then I’d go for the older woman. There have been exceptions, as there always are. And, about the guy crying that he was “being used,” I agree that that’s his fault. If it’s casual dating, then be honest about it. Try not to fall in love with someone who could be young enough to be your daughter.

  13. Cricri Says:

    Dc guy, you have to realize it, you might yourself be one of those “DC Douchebags”! There are more women than Men in DC, just because if all those non-profit companies and social entities , so women scarcity is not the problem. I live in DC as well and here men are as high maintenance as the women, maybe more because in spite of their lack of social skills, their poor appearance, dressing like a schlob, they look at their degrees and the stamps in their passport and think they’re a catch and don’t want to make changes “because they’re nerds, and nerds are cool”. There are a lot of idealistic people in that town as well, who want to find someone to fit in their lives, not make efforts to meet them half way. DC Phil, you need to step up with what you want REALISTICALLY; dating women who will not want kids because it’s too late for them or very unlikely. I remember a 30yo guy had written in once with the same issue, and guess what the answer was the same, even “worse” for him since he was advised to date older women. You, DCP, you get off lucky, you already know those 40yo women.

    • DC Phil Says:

      Women scarcity isn’t the problem, yes. Quality is a different story. Don’t get me wrong . . . I’d rather be in a place where the ratio of women to men is at least 2 to 1. But, with the advantages come disadvantages — and one of those is the type of women that are out there.

      I don’t consider myself to be a “DC douchebag.” I see them all the time and they make ME cringe. There’s also the female equivalent, and I’ve come across a few of those. Just a certain kind of animal in DC.

      As for the 30 yr old you mentioned, that probably would have been me as well. The difference is that I was poor and working too much where I didn’t have the time to go out and meet women — and I was living in DC then, too. Now that I’m established and have the disposable income, things are different.

      Yes, I know about the 40-somethings. In some ways, they look better now than when I was 30. In other ways, they look worse.

      • dimplz Says:

        Ok, please someone tell me what a DC doucebag is like.

        • DC Phil Says:

          Defining a “DC douchebag” is like trying to define “typical DC.” I’m still trying to figure that one out.

          But, this is my stab at what “typical DC is”

          1. works for the government
          2. works for a contractor that does government work
          3. attorney, who might work for the government (e.g., DOJ) or a firm that does government work
          4. lobbyist, who certainly doesn’t work FOR the government
          5. Hill staffer
          6. Hill staffer intern
          7. courtiers and aspiring courtiers to the power corridors
          8. the DC equivalent of Wall Street types in NYC

          As it applies to men:

          1. suits, including the ubiquitous black (and unimaginative) suit that younger guys probably bought because they spent all their other money buying overpriced beers and mixed drinks with their bros
          2. power ties
          3. casual clothes that include untucked striped shirts (including untucked shirts under baggy sweaters), mistmatched sneakers, ratty jeans (faux hipster, in some cases)
          4. poor social skills (though not necessarily their fault given how some women have treated them, no doubt)

          As it applies to women:

          1. suits
          2. relatively unfeminine dress
          3. overinflated self-worth, made worse by the fact that guys are constantly hitting on them in bars and clubs
          4. casual clothes that are sweats, shorts, and flip-flops
          5. slightly overweight because they down Starbucks mochas and frappuccinos and lattes like they’re water, and inhaling cupcakes

          I’m being somewhat facetious here, but I think you get the picture.

          Most importantly, though, is the attitude that “I’m so important because I have a policy job” in a government agency. I’ve seen this attitude, believe it or not, with lowly HR people and patent examiners.

  14. JLR Says:

    I’m 37 and have never had any interest in having kids. I’ve always felt like I had to keep this bit of information to myself because guys always seem to want to have kids – at least the one’s I’ve dated. Where can I find more guys who are happy not having kids?

    • The Private Man Says:

      [Joey On] How YOU doin’?[Joey Off]

      Seriously, I got my vasectomy in my mid-late 30s. But as I am now of a certain age, the women I date tend to have kids out of the house. I occasionally meet a genuinely childfree by choice woman but they are quite rare.

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