Guest Post – Give A Guy A Chance

February 3rd, 2012

Dating, Guest Post, Guest Post 2

As you solicit for guest posts, I wanted to send this along for readers’ opinion.  I’m sending it this way because I tend to get a bit windy and you can edit as you see fit.

Here goes . . .

This past summer, I had two dates that went weird.  The first was with a cute 32 yr old brunette with whom I seemed to have good rapport on the phone.  The other was an equally cute 31 yr old Austrian graduate student working in neurobiology.  (DC has some smart women, I tell you.)

First, the 32 yr old.  We agreed to meet for drinks later in the week and, though she did put a time constraint on me in terms of “well, I’m meeting friends for dinner later, so I can spend an hour.” She was leaving for Charleston, SC the next day.  No problem, I thought, as this is enough time to get to know her.  I had one beer and she ended up having two.  Initially stiff, she started to loosen up after the first beer and was displaying positive body language.  She seemed into me, and I was keeping my distance, letting her invest to the extent that she was comfortable.  After about two hours, it was time to pay the bill as she had to get going to pack for her flight the next day.  We went Dutch.

As we were getting up from the bar, Ms. Brunette was making a beeline to the front door and I had to use the men’s room.  I called out to her that I was going downstairs, but she didn’t appear to hear me.  So, while running to the restroom, I whipped out my phone and sent her a text.  That way, she wouldn’t be standing out on the street wondering what happened to me.

After doing my business, I emerged from the lounge to the street.  No sign of her.  I reentered the lounge to see if she had gone back in.  Again, no sign.  I went out again to the street and waited a couple of minutes.  Then, I started to walk to the Metro.  (Maybe she had gone ahead?)  Before leaving, I sent her another text asking where she went.  By the time I got to the Metro, her response text said that she was at home (she lived in the area) and that she was “drunk, but not THAT drunk,” followed by another sentence that I couldn’t understand.  So, I sent her another text saying something playful like, “So no goodnight?”  Silence.  I waited about five minutes at the Metro entrance, then texted, “Guess not.”  And home I went.

Though she didn’t stand me up, what she did, IMO, was very rude.  That’s only happened to me once, fortunately.

Now, the Austrian.  I never spoke with her on the phone and was going to meet her for afternoon drinks one Saturday.  We met at the Metro and were exchanging small talk on the way to the bar.  We entered the bar and tried to go to the upper level.  Too crowded, so I suggested we go to the lower level.  As we were going outside to get a table, she turned to me with a somewhat vacant and plaintive look in her eyes.  She shook her head and said, “I’m sorry, I can’t do this.”  When I asked her what she meant, she declined to answer.  I then offered to walk her to the Metro.  She declined, saying that she wanted to stay in the area and explore it a bit since she had never been there.  All said without looking at me.  So, I shrugged my shoulders, said bye, and left.

Not rude, but borderline, IMO.  She didn’t even give me a chance.  Dunno why.

Phil

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65 Responses to “Guest Post – Give A Guy A Chance”

  1. dimplz Says:

    Neither of them felt attracted to you. You may be unattractive to them, or maybe you look older than you are. Either way, it’s attraction.

    • Howard Says:

      Dimplz is right, no attraction. It’s tough to swallow but that’s it. Don’t worry about it too much. Things change as you get older. I am assuming you are below 35; maybe I am wrong. The behavior of the two women certainly sounded like the below 35 group. The other thing is that sometimes you have to figure what your league is for right now. Well educated, ambitious women in that age group are certainly looking to get with someone on a level they perceive to be higher than theirs.

      However, women tend to get more realistic as they age. It’s always funny to me how old women friends find the most backhanded way to indicate to me, how they should have taken me more seriously when we are younger. I always play stupid when they do this, indicating that I am no peach really.

      When figuring your league, try to get your head straight about what is really important to you now. High flying women may seem exciting but it’s not all it’s cracked up to be. I once dated a high power exec who made around a million a year, and it was really too stressful. I once dated a politician, and that was a pain in the ass fishbowl situation. There are women with all education levels and professional levels with the qualities that are really important to you. Don’t sell anyone short, because you will be doing exactly what you are complaining about.

  2. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    I don’t understand why you let the first woman walk out. You couldn’t just hold it for 5 minutes?

    I don’t know. You don’t seem to be very socially adept.

    • dimplz Says:

      “She seemed into me, and I was keeping my distance, letting her invest to the extent that she was comfortable.” Again, why were you keeping your distance? Why not mirror if you were attracted?

      • DC Phil Says:

        I was mirroring about 2/3 of what she was doing. My general MO is to not show too much interest at first in order to not come across as looking overeager or desperate. Err on the side of caution, more or less.

        • dimplz Says:

          I will say this, and then I won’t say anything else. People are giving you really good advice here. You keep arguing and excusing your behavior but you are clearly striking out so you’re doing something wrong. It seems you are just after the attention and not very interested in help, so have fun reading and replying to every comment.

          • M Says:

            So far (reading down this page), I dont see much advice at all being given. Its not like he has had another chance, possibly with someone else, and he ignores the advice people have not yet given him.

            • dimplz Says:

              This and the last post are about Phil. There is plenty of advice, but by all means, continue to pontificate before reading everything.

    • DC Phil Says:

      Ms. Brunette hopped off of the bar stool and was making a near-dash to the exit. Now, I don’t know about you, but courtesy dictates that I wait for my date to accompany me to the door before saying our goodbyes. With some of the women I’ve gone out with, and to whom I didn’t feel attracted for whatever reason, at least I left the bar, club, restaurant, etc. with them and then parted company, even when my body language clearly telegraphed that I didn’t feel comfortable in their presence. Again, courtesy.

      As for the restroom, I literally was on the verge of pissing my pants and, no, I couldn’t hold it. Had she been walking with me from the bar instead of dashing to the door, she could have heard me say that I need to pee. She didn’t, so this is why I sent the text. I tried shouting to her, but she didn’t hear me, obviously.

      Also, Ms. Brunette was unique. No woman other than her has ever done that.

      • Dan Says:

        “courtesy dictates that I wait for my date to accompany me to the door before saying our goodbyes…”

        I agree with you on this. Among me and my guy friends, we always act with good etiquette and with respect when dating.

        It seems that many women have no qualms about being rude and just hiking out of there. Well, good riddance! There are lots of women with bad manners and of worse character. This was the opportunity for you to see what you needed to see. She’s not worth the time.

  3. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    “I’m sorry, I just can’t do this.”

    Phil, you obviously know the reason she said this. Something is so glaringly wrong with you that a woman, literally, cannot stomach your presence and you by gosh have no idea what it can be? This is just like the writer who was the subject of Moxie’s “awkard date” post. Gee, I can’t imagine why she can’t get a date. And we’re supposed to analyze the story as if the defect doesn’t exist. This is like “the emperor has no clothes.”

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Something is so glaringly wrong with you that a woman, literally, cannot stomach your presence and you by gosh have no idea what it can be? This is just like the writer who was the subject of Moxie’s “awkard date” post. Gee, I can’t imagine why she can’t get a date.

      I have to agree here. Whenever these stories come in, or whenever I read a blog where the author can’t ever seem to go on an online date without being ditched or treated shabbily, there’s usually only one cause: they look drastically different from their photos or are somehow undesirable physically.

      I don’t think Phil is physically undesirable. These women wouldn’t be going out with him if he did. I do think, though, that he gives of a vibe that sets off women’s “creep – o- meter.” These situations are both…awkward. That’s what women are sensing and that’s why they are bolting.

    • Mark Says:

      Sorry, but I have to agree with DMN on this one.

      You didn’t say about other dates that you went on around this time and how they went, but to have this happen in such a glaring fashion twice in such a short period of time means something was very off. I can understand that at the end of a quick let’s have a drink or coffee someone may decide that they aren’t into you. Or you into them. That happens. but this is something else.I can’t say what that something is, but it was there nonetheless.

      With all respect you might want to re assess what you are doing or how you are doing it.

    • DC Phil Says:

      Granted, there might have been something wrong with me that put her off. But, I’ll never know that.

      Again, that was the first time that had happened. IMO, she could have at least had one drink and have been pleasant for one hour and then made her exit. I’ve had women do that before. At least they gave me a chance. If there was no attraction, c’est la vie.

      • Dan Says:

        Yes, she could have at least had one drink. I have put up with bad women and sat out the date, so I live that same credo.

        But it’s not about etiquette here. The problem with on line forums is that we don’t see the person, and we don’t get enough information as to what is going on. All of friends and family say tell us we are great, but that’s not what we need to hear. We need tough love feedback. That’s almost impossible to get.

        I suggest getting a dating coach to get some feedback. Granted, 90% of these coaches are garbage. They don’t give the brutal honesty we need. So this could be harder to find than it seems.

    • M Says:

      Not necessarily. How do we know there wasnt something about her that was wrong that the OP wasnt aware of? For all we know, the Austrian was married or otherwise in a relationship and was looking to cheat, perhaps to piss off her lover for something he had done. Just playing devil’s advocate here.

  4. Saj Says:

    No attraction on their part at all. The first one wanted to make a ninja exit in the fear of an awkward goodbye. The other couldn’t bring herself to last the entire date. Rude? Yes.

    You may be shooting out your league if this happened twice in a row and may need to aim a bit lower. (or towards what your actual league is rather then the league you wrongly assume you are in)

    • M Says:

      Why should he change the league he is shooting for? We dont know anything about him, but my guess is he’s in the same league as these girls. I would say these girls (and a lot of others, especially in DC, where I wasted 4.5 years of my life after grad school) need to reassess their league. To quote Howard above:

      Well educated, ambitious women in that age group are certainly looking to get with someone on a level they perceive to be higher than theirs.

      I really agree with this, as it explains a lot of what I have experienced. What makes women think that they should be able to get someone better than they are? If, as a guy, I am on that higher level and you approach me, I wont be as interested in you. So why are women then consistently shooting out of their league? For some girls, its like they believe ownership of a vagina entitles them to preferential treatment in life and in selection of a partner. But there’s over 3 billion women , so no, it doesnt make you special. We should all be looking to go out with people who are on the same level as we are.

      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        “I really agree with this, as it explains a lot of what I have experienced.”

        I’m always amazed at how the “leagues” discussion degenerates into “other people shoot out of their league, but I don’t.” You don’t get to determine your own league. By definition, if a woman rejects you, you are not in her league, regardless of how hot you think you are. Iin other words, your experience demostrates that you are shooting out of YOUR league.

        Now, if that woman in her life is having difficulty finding a man, then I might agree that she is shooting out of her league. But, you can’t deduce that from your own experience. You have no ideas.

        • Saj Says:

          Right it’s pure entitlement to think whoever you deem attractive or can get to agree to go on one date is your league. It matters even less with online dating with accurate or inaccurate pictures and profiles.

          When I have had the instinct to get away from someone with as much urgency as the girls in the example it was due to serious unattraction to looks personality or both.

  5. LaLa Says:

    I agree with Moxie on letting the woman walk out. Why would you do that? You could have caught up with her, explained you had to use the restroom, and then go downstairs. Sending a text does sound a little socially awkward. Also, did she offer to do dutch or did you ask? On the first date, some women are going to assume you’re not interested if you let her split it with you. I mean, it was only two beers. You could have picked up the tab and said “you can get it next time”. So I think that even if she was attracted to you, you came off weird by running off to the bathroom and/or letting her go dutch.

    The second woman wasn’t attracted to you. It happens. At least she didn’t waste your time and/or make you pay when she knew she wasn’t going to see you again.

    • DC Phil Says:

      She offered to do Dutch and I offered to get the whole thing. She insisted she pay her half.

      • JS Says:

        If she insisted that she pay for her 2 beers…then she’s not attracted to you.

        It’s polite as a woman to offer to pay but if we are into the guy, we hope he will not let us pay and then it’s a kind of clue that he likes us too.

        But if we insist on paying it is because we dont want to send any mixed messages. A woman insists on paying when she wants to put you in the friend zone. She’s just not that into you.

  6. nathan Says:

    I’ve had some “bad” dates in my day, but have never been walked out on like that. The second situation makes me think that you’re doing or saying something, Phil, that is causing some serious discomfort. Better consider how your approaching women, and stop assuming they’re flaking out on you.

    • DC Phil Says:

      Yes, I agree. The walking about was anomalous. It was rude, plain and simple.

      With some women, when I found that I couldn’t stand to be with them, I cut it off after one hour and then graciously make my exit. Then I walked with them out to the street and shook hands with them. Courtesy.

  7. wishing u well Says:

    Along the lines of “something is missing” is this info: how did the OP meet these women? Not really addressed from the above. Did he meet them online? If so – do you look like your pictures? I know that men complain about this, but we women notice as well. If there is a drastic difference between the purported reality and the actual reality, then you already have your answer. And if you met them previously in person and had both dates fizzle out….then yes, you are saying something or doing something wrong that you aren’t telling us. I also believe that you know what it is because that type of reaction in which the women seem almost desperate to get away from you is NOT typical in dating.

    • DC Phil Says:

      I met both of them online. I chatted with Ms. Brunette on the phone before the date. With the Austrian, it was by email.

      I also remember now that the Austrian seemed like she was overwhelmed with her postdoc work and moving to her new place. Her mind probably wasn’t where it should have been in terms of dating. And, in my view, if that’s the case, then don’t bother dating unless you’re settled and have the time. That’s what I’ve done for years.

  8. Kegs Says:

    The first situation isn’t that worrying, you said yourself you don’t think she heard you say you were going to the bathroom (although I agree, you could have held it a few more minutes to catch up to her seeing as you don’t think she heard you). She probably thought you were behind her, saw you weren’t when she got outside, and so she just continued to head home as you were about to go your separate ways anyway.

    Although in the first situation, you say the girl gave the reason that she had to leave after an hour because she was meeting friends for dinner later on, but then on the night said she was leaving to go and pack? Sounds like the ‘dinner with friends’ thing was her escape plan should she want to end the date early without any awkwardness. And I agree, not even paying for a couple of beers and ‘keeping your distance’ could have all been contributing to a bad vibe from you.

    The last date just wasn’t into you. I agree a bit rude in this case to not even have one drink and then leave, I would never have done that to a person. It’s possible it might have been unrelated to you (e.g. she was on rebound and thought ready to date but realised she couldn’t see it thorugh) but I doubt it.

    • DC Phil Says:

      Moxie misprinted the original message. Ms. Brunette didn’t put a time constraint on me for that same night, but she couldn’t stay out all night because of her flight the next morning. That I could understand because it was a “school night” and I couldn’t stay out that late either.

      Also, FYI, I always keep some distance with the woman when I go out for her the first time. Again, it’s erring on the side of caution in order to come across as too eager or supplicating or desperate. If she’s investing and warming up to me, then I match her. If she herself remains cold and distant, then there’s only so much I can do to get her to open up and invest more.

      Some women have literally talked my ear off, talking about themselves, and show great interest right off the bat. When that happens, I don’t have to do hardly any work. With others, it’s a lost cause.

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        That’s my fault. You told me to edit as I saw fit, and I assumed that was a typo. I’ll fix it.

        Also, FYI, I always keep some distance with the woman when I go out for her the first time.

        I was reading a post on another blog where the woman was asking if people, upon meeting someone they find attractive, flirt or talk. I honestly couldn’t say which I do because I’m too in the moment. The question itself seemed to imply that the author herself wasn’t sure how to have a conversation with a man that she’s interested in dating. This, along with how to gracefully exit a date or how to show interest, all seems to be so confusing to people. And not young people. People in their thirties and forties! I keep wondering if online dating has played a big role in that. It’s like we feel the mutual interest is already there so the hard part is done for us. Leaving us completely stunted when it comes to these types of interactions.

        From everything you’ve said, you are really deep in your head on these dates. There doesn’t seem to be any spontaneity or authenticity.

        • DC Phil Says:

          I agree that dating should be about being in the moment. What I’ve noticed is that, in general, women are better at being in the moment than men are, who are usually future- and outcome-oriented. It’s hard-wired into us, unfortunately. And, with borderline eggheads like me (academic training), it’s more difficult because we have to work more to get out of our heads. So, we craft strategies to help get us out of our heads and compensate for that eggheadedness. I used to be quite the nerd when younger and have mellowed, thankfully, as I’ve gotten older. I still have those handicaps, though.

          But, sometimes they work well for me and with certain women. I’ve noticed that I do better, in general, with foreign women than I do with American women. Less games-playing and, so I’m thinking, a better sense of social interaction. We Americans sometimes have no clue about how to interact with each other because of social fragmentation and technologies like the Net, cell phones, texting, etc. Add to that the deregulated environment that is dating (Dating 2.0, “combat dating”), and you have a somewhat lethal cocktail.

          I’m old enough to remember when “dating” used to be more natural, flowing, and less encumbered with bullshit like it is now. I also was raised with a sense of common courtesy, which some people don’t have anymore.

  9. fuzzilla Says:

    It seems odd that he was like “DC has some smart women, I tell you.” Sure, the Austrian neurobiologist sounds like a smart gal, but…why are you bragging about the smarts of someone who very aggressively blew you off? As if they reflect positively on you? Like “wow, look what I bagged…for all of five minutes…” And you “can’t” date women closer to your age? You’d rather touch the hem of the garment of the “10”s that every guy wants? That is honestly more satisfying to you?

    I dunno. I mean, I agree with everyone’s comments, but I think whatever the issue is is beyond the scope of a site like this to fix. Unless you got very specific about behaviors and did seem really blunt soul searching.

    • DC Phil Says:

      I found it very interesting that she was in that field. Ah . . . what I could have talked about with her! After all, aren’t there many women out there who complain that guys don’t take an interest in what they’re involved in? :)

      Also, talking with a neurobiologist about her research is more interesting — to me, anyway — than the boring HR or paper-pusher who has no life outside of the standard fare.

      • wishing u well Says:

        And that may be where you are steering wrong in meeting a potential partner. A person’s degree is an accomplishment but is NOT a reflection of their overall character. That warm, caring personality that may be a good yin for your yang can come in the form of a teacher, a HR person, or a “paper-pusher.” The fact that a kindergarten teacher may not need an advanced degree from Harvard to teach has nothing to do with who she may or may not be in a relationship. I’m sure that you’ve heard this before, but listening to the tone of your writing (analytical, reasonable, but a little cold and detached), I would venture to suggest that expanding your horizons may be a good thing for you. Just a thought. Anyhow, I wish you well.

      • Dan Says:

        My opinion is that a neurobiologist in Washington is not that smart among her peers. There is not that much great neurobiology research in the vicinity, unless she was doing some special work with NIH, which I doubt, because of distance between there and DC, and also as to what is available at NIH right now. I’d say she was a typical PhD who is in a typical (as in not top tier) career track.

  10. CityGal Says:

    DrivingMeNuts’ comment is totally unfounded and just plain mean. The second girl just wasn’t into you, but there are about a thousand variables and unknowns in this situation, it’s impossible to determine why she did what she did. She sounds like a strange person to begin with if she couldn’t even look you in the eye, so it’s not necessarily anything you did or anything to do with you.

    However, the first woman – this was pretty much all your fault. First of all, I agree with many of the comments above – and at least I can speak for myself. When I was dating and a guy would not offer to pay for my first date (especially if BEERS at a bar), I would take this as a sign that he wasn’t into me. It’s just a good rule of thumb to pay for the “getting to know you” first date and make it inexpensive, casual and brief. The second thing you did wrong is walking away from her to run to the bathroom when she thought you were probably behind her! I agree with Moxie – couldn’t you hold it for 2 minutes to say goodbye and then used the bathroom later? You just created drama by running off and TEXTING her that you had to go to the bathroom. She was probably very confused by your behavior and that in itself would puzzle me.

    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      Why is it “mean?” I said he knows what the problem is, and is playing dumb (with her and with us.) I didn’t say what was wrong with him, only he knows that. If I had to guess, I’d say he looks nothing like his pictures. Also, I don’t care if it’s mean. Fuck you. So there.

      • Joey Giraud Says:

        Right-o. Guys can and should be blunt with each other about these matters.

        OTOH, it’s entirely possible that the OP is great and the women are just weirdos.

    • DC Phil Says:

      My sentiments exactly. The Austrian was just an odd duck and I wasn’t about to read into why she was acting the way she was acting or why she did what she did. As I said, I offered to walk her back to the Metro, in an attempt to maybe salvage the date, but when she refused, I just shrugged my shoulders and walked away, initiating Plan B. No skin off my nose.

      I’m in the middle about paying for the first date. Firstly, expecting the guy to pay is plain bullshit and shows and entitlement mentality. But, as the guy, the burden is still on me, so my MO is to pick something quick and cheap where, if I do have to pay, then the cost is very low. That being said, I do see some merit in the paying = the guy is into me logic. FYI, I have had some women, when the bill arrives, grab it from me and whip out their credit card to pay for the whole thing. When that’s happened, I don’t argue with them. :)

      As for the restroom, as I mentioned above, I literally was on the verge of pissing myself and couldn’t hold it. Now, if I had been Ms. Brunette and been in her position, I’d have naturally assumed that she had to run to the restroom and would have waited for her to say goodbye. It’s courtesy and the goodbye is closure. As I mentioned in the post, I went back into the bar to look for her because I thought she might have been looking for me. Then I waited as a courtesy.

      The fact that she ran away shows odd behavior and was rude, plain and simple. Ergo, she wasn’t worth any more of my time.

      • Dan Says:

        “As for the restroom, as I mentioned above, I literally was on the verge of pissing myself and couldn’t hold it.”

        Couldn’t you have made some comment, about 2 – 5 minutes BEFORE you guys got up to leave, saying “I have to go to the washroom, I’ll be right back.” And I do mean before you even got up, so she could here you.

        We all have a sense of timing as to when things wind down. The bill coming and paying the bill is a very clear indication of that. At that point, that is the latest you could have mentioned that you have to go to the washroom. All of the dates I have ever been on, everyone went to the washroom before the bill came, not on the way out of the restaurant.

        Yes, yes, it is all so easy to hypothesize what you could have done, but if she bailed that quickly and didn’t even look back, things were over. Like I said, you found out what you needed to know: she’s not worth your time.

  11. AnotherChickPerspective Says:

    I agree with many of the posters that the first woman may have just been confused. And agree that if you think someone didn’t hear you and you like them, you hold it and follow them out. next time, say good bye before you do your business. It’s much more respectful of your time. Your couple of texts afterwards, though, are borderline stalking. You ruined any chance of a comeback with the second one. Her response to you was rude, but clearly you did something that crossed her boundaries. Something to be mindful of in the future.

    The second woman, well, I agree with other responders that it could be anything. But it’s worth checking in on basic obvious things like hygiene (ask an honest female friend if you can), do you breath with your mouth open, do you look like your picture, is there some other quirk that you have that someone might not find attractive (not everyone agrees on these things)? How’s your posture? Hair cut? Do you ask questions of the other person and ask follow up questions on what she’s excited about or are you talking about yourself the whole time? Selling yourself the whole time isn’t as attractive to a woman as having someone pay attention to us (well, many of us anyway) Do you complain to sound cool? (Lots of men do that, it’s doesn’t sound cool after high school.) Chances are you’re fine on all of these things and she was just having a bad day for whatever reason. And chances are that whatever happened that day had nothing to do with you.

    I do think it’s getting a bit better at reading women’s body language. A skill that’s even useful beyond dating.

    • LaLa Says:

      I didn’t even think about the hygiene issue. If his smell is off to her or his breath stinks, that would be a definite turn-off and a reason she might end the date. It’s also true that a man who is constantly complaining is annoying (as is a female) and if he’s trying too hard/acting desperate, she might have had enough and bounced.

    • DC Phil Says:

      My other texts were, in my view, a response to find out what happened. Maybe she was looking all over for me and was in a panic. I’ll never know. The texts were for me to find out what happened, not for her.

      Also, to reiterate, the content of her one text was, “I’m drunk, but not THAT drunk.” Aha . . . seems that someone was reading too much into what was happening at the bar.

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Also, to reiterate, the content of her one text was, “I’m drunk, but not THAT drunk.” Aha . . . seems that someone was reading too much into what was happening at the bar.

        And what exactly was she reading in to what was happening at the bar? What did you say to her that generated this response? I don’t think she was the one reading in to things. I think she was being polite by giving you an hour of her time and then split on you to avoid being in an uncomfortable situation.

        I don’t know. I don’t know why I’m even asking this question because you don’t seem to be listening to anybody. You just seem to want to talk.

  12. BruceWayne Says:

    I don’t think he’s asking why the women were so rude – maybe he’s asking how someone could be so rude? I don’t know. I don’t understand the point of his post. Is he wanting us to confirm that both of these women were rude? They were.

    Weirdly rude. Even if you realize you could never, ever be attracted to someone, wouldn’t you just have a drink with them, chat for a few minutes, and make a graceful exit? Maybe I’m being to optimistic.

    • DC Phil Says:

      That’s my general view. Both women were weird. What Ms. Brunette did was very rude; what the Austrian did was just weird.

      I’ve also noticed that most of the women on her are taking the female side, thinking that there was something horribly wrong with me in my appearance or demeanor, or that my behavior put them off. Just sayin’.

      • SB Says:

        I think women are taking the women’s side on this one because we ourselves have been in dating situations many times. Using our own experience, we know that we would never ditch a dude mid-date (I mean, if I am uninterested, I am at least polite until the end of the night. Then, just don’t respond to calls), so we are thinking on why a woman, using our own insight, would possibly do that. The only explanations?

        Either you said or did something horrible (this is my guess) or, as you state, something very strange going on with the women; however, twice? Seems we know the common denominator.

        I have been to DC, but never tried to date women there, so who knows. Maybe DC women are just all a bunch of rude weirdos as you state. None on this board really know, just throwing out ideas. Cheers!

        • fuzzilla Says:

          Hmm. Seems to me some of the women are taking the woman’s side, some are sympathetic to the OP. Whereas *all* of the men are taking the woman’s side. So I’m not buying this “women ganging up on him” theory. Seems like a way to focus on the messenger to deflect the message.

        • M Says:

          I used to live in DC and I think there’s something to what you said about DC girls being weird. Maybe not weird so much as rude. Actually, I’d say everyone in DC is rude, generally speaking. Are DC girls weird too? Some are, but Im not sure more so than in other places. My personal inkling is yes, but then again, I have really only tried to date in two cities, so I dont have that much to compare to.

          • DC Phil Says:

            A friend of mine described DC as an “arena” culture. By that, I took him to mean that, because so many people here are career-oriented, and jockeying for position, social interactions are fraught with pitfalls and lots of sizing-up. “Gladiatorial,” you could say. (“Look at me! Look at my resume and what I’ve done, where I’ve traveled!”) I don’t interact with the power brokers and prefer other types. But, I’ve been around the power brokers and their courtiers long enough to see what goes on.

            On the flip side, DC attracts a lot of intelligent people, as well as foreigners. For every rude and “typical DC” person out there, there are equal numbers of “normal” folks who aren’t like this.

            And, some say that the nightlife in Baltimore is less dysfunctional than DC. Maybe because of the working-class vibe there.

  13. Kurt Says:

    It seems clear to me that the OP must look far different in person than he does in his photos or perhaps has incredibly bad breath or b.o. That would explain why the second woman left so quickly.

    The first woman didn’t seem to be interested, but that happens. Sending all of those texts made him seem needy and desperate – if a woman isn’t interested all of the texts in the world aren’t going to make a difference.

    If the OP’s pictures are accurate, then the best thing for him to do is to put himself out there and keep meeting more women. He’ll eventually get used to being on a date and will probably come across a little more relaxed as he learns to pick up on nonverbal cues.

    • Angeline Says:

      I think dating would be a crushing and not very effective way to improve basic social skills – how will you know if you’re doing something off, or it’s one of a million variables with her? I am trying and failing to come up with some other activity to brush up on social skills, one where you’ll get some feedback on your body language and conversation. Perhaps a dating coach? But they seem to be all over the map as far as what they’d be able to point out. I agree completely about the awkward timing of having to bolt to the restroom *right damned now* … maybe she thought you were ditching her. Maybe she was just waiting for an exit all along. No one but her knows.
      I also agree with dimplz’ comment about mirroring – what was to be gained by being aloof and standoffish? If you can’t convincingly pull that game stuff off, without coming across as simply bored or inept, then don’t try it. It’s good thinking to not appear puppy dog entranced, but perhaps you went too far.
      DMN is right that you likely have a very good idea about what’s going on, and choose to ignore it. Keep on with that strategy if you want more of this “flaky” behavior. Or come clean, at least with yourself, and see some changes.

      • DC Phil Says:

        I look at the woman’s body language. Ms. Brunette was pleasant and friendly when we first met and sat down at the bar, then became more relaxed and was showing more positive signs after the first beer and the conversation. We were there for a good two hours. All signs told me that it was clear to proceed.

        As for flaking, there’s only so much I can do about that. I’ve gotten better since last year, when this thing happened more often. I know what mistakes I was making and corrected those. It’s still a learning process and there will always be those weirdos.

        • Dan Says:

          Who knows really what’s up. People are so screwed up, they don’t even know why they do what they do. So it’s not worth the time analyzing.

          Also, I found that all women have different expectations on a date. Some don’t want you to come on too strong. Others want you to be physically romantic in a light-hearted and flirtatious way. Still others want you to be aloof in an alpha male way. Look, everyone is different and we don’t know what they are seeking nor what they want. It is that elusive chemistry that everyone talks about. Then there are people coaching us to stop looking for chemistry. Rather, give it time for the dating to show what a person is about…

          With all this conflicting advice, I’m confused just thinking about it. Just be yourself, as everyone says. And then things don’t work, so we go back to looking for advice, and we read all the same confusing mix of stuff again.

          Dating is an endless merry-go-round of dates like that. What’s the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome.

          There are no answers.

          • fuzzilla Says:

            >Also, I found that all women have different expectations on a date. Some don’t want you to come on too strong. Others want you to be physically romantic in a light-hearted and flirtatious way. Still others want you to be aloof in an alpha male way. Look, everyone is different and we don’t know what they are seeking nor what they want.<

            Right. The answer is to pay close attention and gauge her responses as much as you can. If she (or he) was laughing and then all of a sudden had a weird look on his/her face and got quiet, don't be afraid to say "sorry, did I say something wrong?" Don't move right in to putting your arm around them, try little light touches on the arm, see how they respond, increase or decrease accordingly. Don't talk about your kinks right away, mention "I read this story in Savage Love about…" If they seemed grossed out, drop it; if they seem intrigued, tentatively proceed, ask about past relationship experiences, etc.

            That kind of thing. There's an art to it, sure, but there are concrete communication strategies you can learn so you're not constantly bemused and frustrated by how your dates go, what women want, etc.

    • D Says:

      “All those texts?” He sent her her two. They may come across as a little needy, but by then she had already moved on, so it’s not like he could have gotten her back. However, people who act rudely should not get a pass from the consequences. So if she felt even a twinge of guilt about not answering his texts, then IMO it was worth it. Maybe she’ll treat the next guy a little better.

      • DC Phil Says:

        Again, sending the texts was my way of finding out what happened. As this kind of thing had never happened to me, I didn’t have a precedent to guide my actions.

        After the first response, I knew that she wasn’t coming back and my subsequent texts were to just see if that was it. Obviously, it was, so I was already on my way home.

  14. joe-f Says:

    The reason may be you talk too much and reveal too much on the first date. I don’t know you but you responded to almost every commentator’s post. I hope you are not like that on a date. I found a date where the woman speaks more than you works better.

    • D Says:

      This is a good point. I don’t think you need to necessarily talk less than your date, but it’s good to 1) not validate everything your date says (i.e. be a supplicating “nice guy”) or 2) defend yourself if she disagrees with you about something. A playful argument is fine, but feeling like you have to prove yourself “right” is a sign of insecurity.

  15. petitemimi Says:

    From your responses to the questions people ask here, it’s obvious the two women aren’t attracted to you for reasons that you look far from your picture or too much age gaps than what they expect because you never answer to the question related to this. Dating is harsh n just happened that they feel you are not in
    their leagues. As for the first woman, she was merely being nice by staying longer or she just couldn’t get her way out of the situation scared of being labeled superficial, and when you ran to the bathroom she thought it was her only way out to avoid the awkward end and/or possibility of second date. So whatever you did or said during the date it wouldn’t affect their opinion to you even you were being a gentleman, nice n all. You can just move on and learn from this.

  16. Dixie Says:

    I guess you could sit there and try to figure it out until the cows come home…but, on the other hand, why don’t you just keep in moving, ask other girls out, and hopefully will meet someone with manners and kindness….and don’t be so superficial about meeting women…that’s the problem when men choose women just on looks…they don’t realize that there may be a monster inside.

  17. offensivedan Says:

    Has anyone even considered that these women were just rude, crazy or both? It’s online dating after all and, as most of you have experienced, anythign goes. Phil, if I were you, I would not worry too much about what happened with these women. Normal, sane women will give you a chance even if for one evening. Why? Because they want to be entertained and most women would not pass up free drinks or a meal.

    The first woman was not intererested in you. However, she conveyed that in a rude sense.

    The second women is well–crazy.

    Again, I would not even worry about these two. Now, if it keeps happening it may be you. Online dating is a joke and most on there are crazy and not capable of socializing.

  18. offensivedan Says:

    Btw, Phil, never go out with a woman who tells you that she can only give you an hour or sets time constraints for a first date or meeting. This woman is a lost cause and you wasted your time. If she can’t afford to give you enough time for an evening so you guys can get to know each other she is not worth it and/or not interested. Also, she is leaving the next day on vaction. So, guess where her mind is? VACATION. Next time, you suggest you talk when she gets back from vacation and has time. Then, you contact her once and only once.

    Some of us don’t date a lot b/c either we are poor, ugly or don’t have any connections. However, that does not mean that you need to accomodate assholes, timewasters, dumb bitches douchebags just for a date. Phil, you need to learn to say no and move on. If she is itnerested she will see you. I learned this valuable lesson after a bit. Nowadays, dating does not piss me off or frustrate me as much as it did in the past. it’s just not worth it–surrendering your dignity, getting pissed off or otherwise.

    Also, on a first date you better kiss and slobber all over her face. Never hold back just because it’s the first date or because you feel the Victorian Age rocked.

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      I have to agree about the time constraint disclaimer. It’s rude. Also pointless is going out with someone who is going away on vacation the next day or soon after the first date. It totally kills the momentum.

    • DC Phil Says:

      Yes, I’ve learned about not operating under a time constraint. One woman tried to do that fairly recently by trying to squeeze me into a time slot before she went out with drinks with friends on Friday night. I told her that we should take a pass/cancel and then we’ll reschedule for another day. She agreed and we had a relaxing first date the following week. She wasn’t looking for a second date, though. I imagine that she had no time. She was a freelance writer and frequently under deadlines.

      So, after Ms. Brunette, I’ve learned to not have a date before the woman is off on some trip, either business or pleasure. Better to reschedule and then see if she’s really interested or not.

      As for kissing, I always try to go for the kiss at the end of the first date. If she turns her head, then all isn’t lost if she agrees to a second or third date. By the third date, though, if I haven’t kissed her on the lips, then I’ll let her go. I’m not shooting for getting her into bed by the end of the third date, but if there’s no concrete physical affection, then that’s it.

      Now, if I get the kiss on the lips at the end of the first date (which has happened more than once), then I take that as a bright green light.

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