Name: Derek
State: MA
Age:
Comment: I was at an event at a club and as I was leaving I bumped into a cute younger girl – as in, less than 30. I’m in my 40s, but fit and well turned out, if I may say. We chatted, had a hint of chemistry. She complimented my tie. We both were on our way somewhere, so I quickly got her e-mail address, and asked her out for a drink a day or so later. We e-mailed for a week to set up a mutually convenient time, and I looked forward to seeing her again. I thought the anticipation was shared, but when we met up the chemistry was gone. Frankly, she didn’t seem interested to be there. She acted as if she was just punching a clock, killing an evening with another round of free drinks. I was mystified, and deflated, honestly, and our date turned into a Q&A session. When we were parting on the street, she even turned away before she finished saying, “Thanks, it was fun.” What gives?
I think what possibly happened was that the night you and she met she had had a couple drinks, which made her more personable. Then, on your date, the “real” her came out. You were probably an experiment of some kind. I think a lot of women (and men) have accepted a date from someone that they didn’t typically date thinking it would be “intriguing.” I have a couple of friends (one African American, one Asian) who have been on dates just like the one you describe. Their dates ask them a ton of questions, almost like they had never been on a date before. The general feeling both friends had was that their dates had this idea in their heads that dating for Asian or African American people was somehow different. I’ve even been in that position, where a guy would ask me all kinds of questions about the website and what I do. It’s a complete vibe killer.You feel like a show pony.
I think this girl went on this date more for the experience and the story than anything else. That’s usually why twentysomething women go out with men your age. You were flattered by the attention from a younger woman. Easily flattered, actually. Her compliment about your tie was an awkward attempt at flirting. She was out of her depths and, like you, was probably flattered by the fact that an “older man” was flirting with her.
We’ve talked about this before. Women who date men not just chronologically much older than them but who are in a completely different stage of maturity usually do so for the bragging rights. They’re captivated by the man’s “sophistication” because they think that reflects well on them. Rarely are their friends actually impressed. More likely, the woman’s friends all think the guy is a creep or has no luck with women his own age. It really isn’t a coup.
A guy might get a few fist bumps for having sex with a younger woman. But dating her? Not so much. There’s this myth out there that men all pat each other on the back for getting a “younger” woman and I just don’t think that is the case. I honestly believe men question the judgment of men who date women much younger or in a complete different stage of emotional development. Mainly because those relationships usually involve a lot of unnecessary drama and difficulty.
As I said in a recent comment, I’ve worked with men in their early to mid twenties who refuse to date women under 21/22. Between the fact that they aren’t of legal drinking age to the difference in lifestyle and maturity, it’s far too much of a hassle.
OP, you saw this girl as an option. She saw you as an experiment. That’s it.
“…killing the evening with another round of free drinks.”
That about says it all.
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Yep. His fault for allowing that to happen. Had it been me, I’d have had her buy her own drinks on the first meeting. How she reacted and if she paid or not would have told me whether she was serious or just playing games.
Also, if things progressed to where he got sex out of the deal, he accomplished the most important goal — and would have had bragging rights afterwards without having fallen prey to being duped.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I know you guys all have bitter axes to grind, but stop whining about dinner/drink whores. Seriously. Saying that all women just want to go out on dates just to get free meals and free drinks is like saying men just want to go on dates to get sex and never want to have a committed relationship. Is that true for some women or men? Yes. But a reasonably considerate or nice person isn’t going to ‘take advantage’ of some kind of generosity.
But If you continuously go out with people who don’t / can’t give you what you want romantically, then that’s on you. You keep picking the wrong people. If every woman you go out with expects a $200 dollar meal and endless cocktails, maybe you need to find new ways of getting dates.
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“Reasonably considerate” covers a small berth. Hard to know when one is being that way unless you’ve dealt with others who don’t display this behavior.
And, I agree with “it’s on you.” It takes time, however, to spot the attention-whores and the drink whores. Practice, practice, practice.
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” I have a couple of friends (one African American, one Asian) who have been on dates just like the one you describe. Their dates ask them a ton of questions, almost like they had never been on a date before. The general feeling both friends had was that their dates had this idea in their heads that dating for Asian or African American people was somehow different.”
Any advice on how to deal with this if you’re someone who is open to dating any race?
It’s not like I date people who are younger, better looking or successful. I look for common interests, values and respectful emails.
Unfortunately, sometimes I leave a date feeling like the other person just wanted practise or info, rather than a genuine interest in finding out whether we get on.
I don’t think I’m dating outside my league, but I’m interested to know whether race means that you have to go for less attractive or much older dates in order to be taken seriously.
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Edited because….wow. – Moxie
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“As for African-Americans, I’ve never dated anyone long-term and have chosen to stay away from them. They tend to look uglier, have worse attitudes, and are probably wondering why in the hell are they trying to date outside of their race and what shit their peers are likely to give them.”
You’re kidding me, right? In all seriousness – I encourage you to broaden your horizons. There is no cookie cutter mold for any race or ethnicity. While there is some truth to stereotypes, most are based on over the top behaviors. The everyday, average ones quietly live and move among us on a daily basis. That’s seriously as ridiculous as saying that all women from NJ behave like those girls you see on Jersey Shore. Anyhow, I wish you well.
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Wait…how did you see that comment? I edited it.
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It’s gone now, but not when I first linked over to this page. Once my comment posted, then your edit popped up. My apologies!
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Wait, DC Phil said that??
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Yes, DC Phil said that. I speak the unvarnished truth that few care to vocalize.
Moxie also deleted the other section of my comment, which I repeat below:
Culture has something to do with it, too.
When I was in Korea in my mid-20s, I got a lot of flirty attention from my female students and the girls I was socializing with. Obviously, much of this was because I was the 6′ 1″ foreign guy in a small city (not Seoul, where I’d have been common) who dressed, spoke, and acted differently from his Korean male peers. It was the exotic factor at work. It was also the culture, where the females are typically taught to be more feminine and girly. (On the flip side, the 20-somethings usually have the minds of teenagers, but oh well.) It didn’t get me laid much, but it certainly made it easier to interact with them and make friends. They were very much unlike American girls — and this was 15 years ago, even.
As for black women, I’ve always seen a stark contrast between African women and African-American women. One girl I’m seeing now is Kenyan, and has been in the US for nearly two years now as a grad student here in DC. Sweet, kind, very smart, unassuming . . . all good qualities. The feminine attracts the masculine, and it attracted me. I can’t compare her to most AA women. I just can’t. Ditto for the Zimbabwe girl I dated briefly last year.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Unvarnished – indeed. Truth? Bullshit. You just uncovered the white elephant in your stuffy little dating room that would cause two women to flee as soon as they could.
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DC Phil’s comments only to try and prove his pre-existing beliefs, even if no one agrees with him, and add nothing to any kind of discussion that could go on in the comment threads.
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“As for black women, I’ve always seen a stark contrast between African women and African-American women… ”
Backtracking much?
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Nope. Reiterating what I mentioned before.
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Sounds like you’re experimenting with these poor women, and disguising your intentions in order to obtain sex. When they find out your true opinions, they will lose some of their “unassuming” charm, and you’ll call them ugly too.
Have you considered using professionals? They come in all shapes, sizes and nationalities, and you don’t have to deal with any of the fallback from experimenting with women you have no intention of having a serious relationship with.
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If you didn’t own one before, I’m pretty sure you just earned the “DC Douchebag” award of the year. I’m an African educated woman, one of those “desirable ones”, and I see many types of you in DC everyday and I religiously avoid them. The sad part is for all the traveling and “awareness” and degrees some of you profess, your minds are still as closed as some hillbilly rednecks in some southern hellhole. The worst part is the self-righteousness. How can do you expect people to like or even love you if you’re not able to like your own people?
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As shocking and offensive DC Phil’s comment was, it sheds some light on why I’m feeling that I’m not being taken seriously as a date
Sometimes.
Personally, if one has a negative bias towards any group, it would be honorable not to date them even once. After all, even if you have misgivings about the group, the people you’re experimenting with have feelings too.
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Anon, don’t take what he says seriously. Isn’t he the one who got ditched twice in a row on dates? He seems sort of socially awkward to me. There are plenty of open-minded people in the world. You don’t want a man who is going to judge an entire race of people anyway. I’m white and I’ve dated all races, and it really comes down to character. You’ll find some people who won’t date you because of your race, others who will give you a chance, and others who only date your race. Find the people who are attracted to you and move on from the ones who aren’t.
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For the record, my comment about AAs referred to the culture and not the race. I’ll happily date Africans with no problem. They’re not AAs. So, is this a race issue? Not to me it isn’t.
Also, keep using that “he got ditched twice in a row in dates” bludgeon. I’m sure there’s still some mileage left in it.
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Edited because…you have some serious issues, man.
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For many reasons, I am ineligible for a date with DC Phil. Somehow, I will pick up the shattered pieces of my life and go on.
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I thought the girl was probably a little more tipsy in the first scenario and had serious beer goggles. True story: I went to South Beach with my girlfriend a few years ago. She’s a lot younger than me, because I met her during a summer abroad when I was in graduate school and she was an undergraduate. Anyway, we went to Mango’s and we met some Spaniards (wouldn’t you know!). They were nice and we had a great time with them that night, just talking about Spain and dancing.One of the guys was probably my age, and being that I am 10 years older than her, it was a bigger age difference. He was short and didn’t look like the guys I’d normally seen her check out. But, I didn’t say anything. She invited him out with us the next night. We get there, and he’s standing in front. She asks me, “What is he doing here?” and genuinely was confused. I told her, “You invited him.” She tried to lose him the whole night, she said she thought he was cuter the night before (he wasn’t). Anyway, after an hour, he finally got the hint and we went on to the next place.
So, long story short (too late), she wasn’t feeling him anymore because she wasn’t drunk.
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Yeah my thought on reading this was also beer goggles.
Derek, think back to when you were in your 20′s…what did you really think about women in their 40′s as romantic possibilities? Should it be such a stretch to think women in their 20′s may view men in their 40′s similarly?
You may look terrific for your age, but to a 20 something, you are still alot older. C’est la vie.
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Well, it’s like he said, “for his age.” Not “I look like a 20 year old.” It just means you will be more appealing to people closer to your age. Maybe it’s a guy thing, but I’ve never been flattered when younger guys check me out because I’m not interested in being with a younger guy.
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No hope for us older guys, then. Might as well just pack it in.
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Speak for yourself, grampa.
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I was being facetious, of course.
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Overall I agree, but it’s not like it’s totally uncommon for older men to day younger women. Hugh Hefner is the archetype, but think of Bill Clinton & Monica Lewinski, George Clooney, Chris Noth etc. Even New Gingrich is married to a woman who is something like 20 years younger.
I’m not holding these out as role models, and of course as rich and powerful men, they have a lot going for them. Just pointing out that it’s much more common than the other way around. Dimplz’s comment that she’s not “interested in being with a younger guy” does not carry over to most men.
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Ofcourse it’s not uncommon for older men to date younger women. Not all younger women WANT to date older men though – particularly those out of their generation which would be the case in 20-somethings dating 40-somethings. Which brings us back to Moxie’s premise that sometimes younger women will date older men as “an experiment” of sorts. Those women aren’t looking for an older partner necessarily, they are perhaps more open to a bit of experimentation until the reality sets in – “This guy is ALOT of older – I don’t think I want to get too involved.”
Many of us have 2 ages: the age on our driver’s license, and our “feel like” age. Our “feel like” age persuades us we have plenty in common with, and should be attractive to younger people. The younger people don’t always see it that way though. They tend to feel they have more in common with, and are more attracted to their own relative peers.
I’m not saying men shouldn’t seek out younger women – just that they shouldn’t be oh-so-surprised when they are blown off by younger women. Younger women have men of all ages vying for their attention – consider the competition.
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“The younger people don’t always see it that way though. They tend to feel they have more in common with, and are more attracted to their own relative peers.”
In general, yes. However, when I was in my 20s, I felt like I had very little in common with my peers and so gravitated more towards older people. I set out to learn something from them, to tap into their wisdom. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn’t.
Also, at 40, I don’t feel like I have too, too much in common with my peers of the same age bracket. After all, I’m single, have no kids, live in the city and not the suburbs, and work a standard 9-to-5 job with my nights and weekends free. Many of my peers are married, have kids, have horrible commutes to the suburbs, and are working 45 + week. Sucks when you’re trying to socialize, but what are you going to do?
“Younger women have men of all ages vying for their attention – consider the competition.”
And this is why it usually sucks to be a guy in his 20s when he’s trying to get a girlfriend. Competition along with choosiness from the younger women because they have so many options, inflating their egos in the process. Then, when they hit their 30s and have their “oh, shit!” moment, realizing that they spent their 20s being the belle of the ball, but aren’t married and don’t have kids, they tend to change their tune. Meanwhile, the 20-something guys are now entering their 30s and their value is going up.
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“More likely, the woman’s friends all think the guy . . . has no luck with women his own age.”
No luck with women his own age? That’s like saying he couldn’t afford gold, so he went and bought a diamond. I can see this if you’re talking about huge age gaps – like an 18 year old woman with a 40 year old man. But, most people, I think, understand in general why an older man would want to date a younger woman. I doubt there is much head scratching there. More likely, any negative judgments from her friends is based on the fact that the older man is not as physically attractive as the younger man. Fortunately, woman are not generally hung up on that.
“There’s this myth out there that men all pat each other on the back for getting a “younger” woman and I just don’t think that is the case. I honestly believe men question the judgment of men who date women much younger or in a complete different stage of emotional development.”
I’m not sure that men “pat each other on the back” necessarily, but I don’t personally see or experience inter-male “judgment” either way. My experience is that men generally don’t give a shit one way or the other if their buddies are dating someone younger.
I don’t think the OP’s predicament has to do with age nor do I think that twenty-something women “typically” date 40-something women as an experiment. I think such behavior would be the exception, not the rule. As men get older, they become more desirable, not less and I tell you that from personal experience. If the OPs having trouble with women now, most likely it was worse for him when he was in his twenties.
Women may tell each other “ewww I would never date an older man” and, make comments to that effect on an Internet blog, but it flies in the face of the collective male experience. I can’t prove it – you’ll have to take my word for it, as one such aging male. It only gets easier.
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I meant “40-something men’ as an experiment.” Sorry, I have intergenerational lesbian sex on the brain.
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My experience is that men generally don’t give a shit one way or the other if their buddies are dating someone younger.
+100. The truth is that most guys don’t think or talk about this stuff (or really anything dating related) at all.
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HA! Between this & Demi Moore’s downfall I would hope people start to get it: AGE DOES MATTER! I’ve known many people over the years who were in relationships & marriages with an age difference that “didn’t matter” only to later learn that it did.
Here is the deal: If there are children involved, as in common biological children of both people this can work. Reason being that the kids are the ties that bind & the younger partner is not apt to jettison someone as they age, (except Newt Gingrich & he is a serial douche, touche Nancy Brinkman of Susan G. Komen did it too except she did it to a step parent). They will accept the cards they played, perhaps because they fear the reaction of their children. However, & this is just my observation, the 2nd time around with no kids you are playing with fire once the split passes 5 years when the woman is older & about 7 when the man is older. All of this is just my observation of course.
Quotes from actual failed aged out relationships:
1. The woman was 18 years his junior, married 19 years. He was 70 & tired. She said, “I’m only 52 & I have a lot of living left to do, life is short.” He said, “I always knew this day would come. They were married, he was a Park Avenue dentist, & she got a nice settlement. This was the year after his retirement. I suspect that the distinguished looks of 51 year old man had faded over 19 years & he was simply tired.
2. In a second case where the guy was younger by about 7.5 years the problem was her exiting menopause & he flat out told me, “She just got old”. At the time she was 49, he was 42. They had been married 9 years, dated 3, no kids.
3. The last one is a friends dad. He is 78 years old & no longer in the best of shape. He was with the same woman for over 25 years. The she component is 12 years his junior. Not married to each other, one day she just told him she, “needed more”. Last I knew he was in a severe funk & it is a good thing for him he has his children.
Actual experience dating a woman who was 8 years older. Early on, we were just dating about 2 months. I just thought after noticing her skin was not fairing so well due to her sun worshiping activities, “What am I doing”. I decided to move on, telling her that there are differences that matter. While it was not just her age, (we had different interest that, as much as I encouraged it, they were not going to merge.
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Of course the age difference will show up at some point. It always does. It even applies to people of the same age or close to the same age. Chronological age and maturity age don’t necessarily coincide.
As for the relationships you mentioned:
1. Of course a 70 yr old is going to be tired. No news there. However, the fact that the wife timed her divorce right after his retirement sounds a bit fishy to me. Sounds like she just wanted out of the marriage, regardless of the reason, and walked away with cash. Had the guy known better, he’d have signed a pre-nup with the woman if he “always knew this day would come.” He wasn’t being smart about it. But, at least he had some, I hope, happy years with this woman, 18 years his junior.
2. A guy marrying a woman that much older than himself isn’t common. Yep, she just got old . . . no doubt nearing menopause. So, he can leave and go out in search of a younger woman.
3. “Needing more.” Oh, yes . . . sounds like hypergamy to me.
And, you make a good point about the sun-worshipping activities. I’ve seen women in their 30s who are starting to look terrible because of all the tanning they do. Yuck.
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When I was dating as a single Mom, I was the one who got dated as an experiment. And let me tell you, it was frustrating and disheartening at times. I would meet someone great, get my hopes up, he’d say all the right things, romance me, we’d have sex a couple times, date a couple weeks and then he’d set me down and tell me I was great but he just couldn’t get over “the kid situation.” (For the record, I never introduced my son to any guy I ever dated except my now husband and 1 guy who gave us a ride home in a torrential downpour that he met for 5 minutes and I introduced as a friend. ) Years after the fact once it no longer hurt and one of the guys I dated and I had become true friends, he admitted to me that he never saw me as a potential partner because of my being a single Mom, but he tried to convince himself to give me a chance, but honestly he had just really wanted to have sex with me. Yeah, ok I know stuff like that happens, but it’s hurtful to be on the receiving end of it. My husband admitted something similar, it’s just he surprised himself by actually falling for me. So, I guess sometimes it works. My advice to people who might be the experiment, trust your gut about people and don’t get too attached to early. To the people who might be dating someone as an experiment, remember that there are actual people with feelings attached to that intriguing exterior and be kind.
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Just curious regarding how old you were when this was happening to you. FYI – my “experimental dating” has been limited to the times when I would show up for a first date & reach the conclusion early on that this is not a good match. I have used the opportunity to hone dating skills, gauge reactions &/or see “what works”. Never anything rude, mean, or engage in continued dating so I could score sex with them. Like yourself I aware that I am dealing with a living breathing human being who like myself has feelings attached.
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I was in my early 30′s when I was dating as a single Mom. And I know I also experimentally dated people, I just called it “giving them a chance.” Which I support people doing, just don’t unnecessarily lead them on and say things you don’t mean.
As for DC Phil’s question, I don’t think I talked up how my son was my whole world. But I think I made that obvious through my actions. I would only ever go out with someone on the weekends or the rare weekday that he was with his father. I wouldn’t talk on the phone when he was with me and not in bed. I really didn’t even let peole in my apartment even when he wasn’t there because it felt violating to his space. I know it hurt my chances with some guys who wanted to meet right away or have a drink on a week night, but if they couldn’t wait until the weekend (or prioritize me as a date for the more important Friday or Saturday night) then it wasn’t going to happen any way. It sucked at times in the moment to be dismissed so easily for being a single Mom, but looking back on it I wouldn’t have done it any differently and I would always advise a single parent to do the same and keep your dating life totally walled off from your child until you are very, very sure that person is going to be around for a long time.
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I’m guessing that you had the time to see these guys. Had you been too busy with your son, you might have not been let down like you did.
Also, just curious . . . were you just matter-of-fact in telling these guys that you had a kid and then left it at that? Or, did you trumpet the fact that your son is your “world,” your “everything,” etc? I’ve dated one or two single moms in my life and I’m always more intrigued when they are just matter-of-fact about their kids and then leave it at that.
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I’ve gotten shit from friends for dating older guys before. Being from a huge family, someone 17 years older actually *is* in my generation (technically an immediate sibling is “in your generation,” right? Or is it a multi-generational family? Anyway, maybe that’s why it never felt that weird to me).
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