Remember this post?
Well, it seems the same woman went out with another starving artist type. Only this time he didn’t stick her with the bill. He actually paid for everything, every time. This unemployed man made sure to pick up the check after every date. And guess what? She’s still complaining.
Since he was a gentleman, he picked up the tab. We went out a few more times and each date was the same — bottles of wine, elaborate food, plus dessert. One day he revealed he had no idea how he was going to pay rent. It was a little awkward and it made me question all the elaborate dates. And his sanity.
The author is right in that it is awkward to date people who are unemployed or struggling financially. Typically, most people don’t divulge such information to people they barely know. But when they do, they do it for a reason, and it’s usually to keep expectations about how elaborate a date may be to a minimum. It’s a disclaimer.
Since he was a gentleman, he picked up the tab.
Ah. That again. So, he’s a gentleman for paying, but because he paid he’s financially irresponsible. If he had asked her to pay her share or not paid, he’d have been accused of being cheap. She’s clearly quite pleased with herself that she got a man to pay for her cheesecake and wine. She wants to be sure everybody knows that. Apparently she has a totally passive role in all of this and isn’t able to suggest they just go for dollar beers and darts. This is all him. Got it. Gotta love that inconsistency.
Should someone be dating when they’re unemployed? That’s a personal choice. Should somebody allow someone who is unemployed to pay for all their dates? That’s another personal choice. Someone going out of their way to pay for their date when they are unemployed might just be trying too hard. That doesn’t necessarily mean they’re unstable financially. It seems like people are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.
I was saying to a client yesterday that the subject of financial security and stability has no place in an online dating profile. You don’t mention that you’re unemployed in your dating profile. Nor do you mention how financially secure or stable you are. You don’t talk money, period. That’s the typical rule of thumb. It’s gauche and tacky. Not to mention, if a woman is divorced and she mentions in her ad that she’s financial secure, a lot of the men reading her ad will grumble under their breath, “Yeah. Thanks to your ex-husband and alimony.” In many cases, that’s not even true. The woman made her own investments and had her own savings and secure job. But she’ll be branded in a negative way strictly because many men have been conditioned to believe that every woman sucks her ex-husband dry in a divorce. Some do, of course. But not all women do that.
The whole topic of money is inappropriate this early in the game. But if it is raised, it’s usually done so for a reason, and that’s to communicate just how much they can offer financially. This guy is obviously quite socially inept or else he’d have never mentioned his financial situation at all. Or maybe he was hoping that this woman would get the hint and fork over some cash for her wine and dessert. Could be that he was trying to keep up appearances or trying to impress her. Poorly, obviously, but still. In any case, the guy was screwed from the get go.
What really let’s say…intrigues me…was this statement:
And if it’s a choice between your rent and a date, you should probably put dating on hold until your finances are more stable.
Now, since she’s so comfortable questioning his financial responsibility, stability and judgment, I’m going to ask a question. Um, what the hell does she do for a living again? Because I’ll be damned if I can figure it out from reading her blog and column. Maybe she has a full time job. I don’t know. She never seems to mention one, but she might have one. It’s unlikely that she makes a living off of writing columns like this. Yes, I know, Carrie Bradshaw did it! Except..she didn’t, because she wasn’t real. If she were, she wouldn’t have been living in an UES studio with a closet full of designer label shoes and dresses. I mean, she could have done all that, but she was probably being very financially irresponsible if that was the case. Or she was doing what so many people in this city do and was withdrawing healthy amounts of cash from The Bank of Mom and Dad. I know I have from time to time. Not consistently, but I’ve been fortunate enough to have a father who worked extremely hard and planned well for me and was completely and utterly selfless when it came to money. Too my detriment actually. But money from parents isn’t the same as money you earn. Are we lucky to have access to it? Absolutely. But having that does not make us more financially secure or stable. It certainly doesn’t elevate us to a higher level where we can justifiably judge someone else’s finances.
So here’s my Fail to Fab moment: It’s tacky to talk money in any context with someone you’ve just met, but it’s even more unattractive to sit around and dissect how someone manages their money, especially when you so willingly allow them to spend their money on you.
Money is always a tricky subject to bring up in any case. For the record, the only time I’ve explicitly mentioned money is in reference to my pay grade. As I work for the government, salary tables are freely accessible on the Net and anyone can look them up. Anyone can see how much I make provided that I give them sufficient details. But, that’s also where I don’t say anything else. Over the years, I was careful with my money and use what I earn in salary to pay my rent and other sundry expenses. My “play” money is what I saved. Plus, I rent and don’t own, and don’t own a car. Those are other expenses I don’t have.
I’ve dated other Fed workers who have been in the Fed longer than I have and, consequently, make more money than I do. Interestingly, they don’t give me the cold shoulder and the subject of money doesn’t come up. I guess this is because a Fed job is one of the most secure jobs there is (especially in DC, behind Fed contractors) and even if the one person isn’t at the pay grade of the other, the other knows that, in time, the person will make that grade provided they do their job and don’t make any glaring fuck-ups along the way. No starving artists need apply to the Fed. These aren’t the days of Depression-era public works.
Finally, on the subject of being on dates while one is unemployed, I have to ask: why in the hell is the guy taking this gal out on dates where wine and food is involved? The two of them can’t just kick back at each other’s apartments, watch a DVD, snuggle, and screw? It still amazes me how stuck some people are in the whole “dinner and a movie” mindset when that’s clearly grossly outdated. I NEVER take a woman out to dinner on a first date. Coffee, yes. Drinks, yes. Ice cream, yes. Walk in the park, yes. At least it’s out of the ordinary.
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Well, there is a reason for everything. She is going to continue to run into these situations. What an entitled person she is! I guess the cool smart guys got her figured. When are people going to figure that other people will give if it’s received well. Yes, with gratitude, not entitlement. And this relates to much more than money. Time, concen and love are even more valuable than money, and they should be cherished when received from another person.
If you don’t have the right attitude about me spending on a date, why would you have the right attitude about my time, concern and love?
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Ok maybe it’s just me, and yes it was this guy’s choice, but finding out he’s unemployed or whatever, what in HELL is this woman doing still accepting dinners/drinks from this guy??? Obviously I don’t read her blog, so maybe she’s just one of those women that believes men should pay for everything (it’s somewhat inferred above), but I’d be paying for myself, heck, I’d even be paying for him. I think he was trying to ineptly drop her a hint and obviously, she’s taking none of it (because she doesn’t) want to.
I think it’s ok to date if you’re unemployed, but only that person themselves knows their financial situation and should curb the dates accordingly, and I think in protecting themselves financially should mention that they are between jobs so the expectation is lower (even though I’m a staunch believer in paying for myself, especially on a first date).
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I’m unemployed for 1 year. I’ve cut my expenses, taken in a roommate and live off savings. I’m still dating though, hesitantly. I’ve dated men who paid all the time as well as men who allow me to pay some of the time. I must say, my dates have gotten less elaborate and less expensive. I look for half priced theater/opera tickets, do lunch instead of dinner, and first dates are always casual, cheap and quick. I do more cooking at home, something I’ve always enjoyed but never had time to do.
It is hard to not talk about money. It may not be brought up directly but asking people what they do for a living is a religion in this country (I’m a foreigner); it’s as casual and expected as asking one’s name. Although you may not say I’m a lawyer or trader and I make X amount, people associate those professions with a higher income bracket; a waiter or teacher may be in a lower one. Obviously, this isn’t always true, but it is the assumption. We associate employment with with a healthy stream of income and financial stability and unemployment with little of no income and financial instability. Likewise, these are all assumptions. So, while we may not discuss money directly, one’s profession does give us an idea of what we think others make.
I’ve told friends this, if you can’t afford to tip, don’t go out to eat. Likewise, unemployed or not, if you can’t afford to pay for a date, maybe you should offer a more affordable alternative.
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“If you can’t afford to tip, don’t go out to eat.”
Yep. And don’t invite people to go out to eat with you – if it means you won’t be able to pay your rent. Pretty simple.
Since the guy was the one who ASKED HER to go to these restaurants, why should she be expected to know he couldn’t afford it? Unemployed doesn’t necessarily mean flat broke. And if he was near broke, why would he suggest such venues?
I read the woman’s blog entry and she made the point it’s sexier to have ice cream on a park bench, than a 5 course meal with a guy who went in debt for it. Doesn’t sound like entitlement attitude.
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Because he told her he was unemployed. Common sense, really.
Again, the problem is a lack of solid social and communication skills. He was telling her he was unemployed. Maybe he was doing so so she would pick up the hint and offer to pay her share. Maybe he thought there was some implicit understanding that they’d split the bill and then was being gracious when the check came. Who knows. What we know is that she didn’t contribute to the bill and was oh so impressed by his “starving artist” schtick…except when he dared to tell her something like he didn’t know how he was going to pay the rent. Um…hello? The guy was desperately trying to telegraph to her that he couldn’t afford to pay for both of them. She still sat there and let him pay.
I went out with a friend a few weeks ago for a belated birthday drink. I’ve known him for about 10 years. As we were sitting there he mentioned something in passing about how he had XX amount of dollars in his account. That was my cue, I knew it, I picked up the tab. He knew the bartender so we got a round or two for free. And it was MY BIRTHDAY. There was no way I was going to let that guy pay for my drinks when I knew he was struggling financially. I was glad to hang out with him and catch up.
When people bring up their lack of funds, they’re doing ti for a reason. Go out enough and get enough experience and you figure that out.
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Also, given this girl’s overall inability to pick up social cues, maybe the guy said he “didn’t know how he was going to pay his rent” off the cuff. We don’t know the context of the discussion. As is typical in these “bad date” stories,she only included the bits of information that supported her argument.
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You’re right, we don’t have much context for his rent comment. I assumed that he paid for several elaborate dates, she went along with it thinking he had plenty of savings/was at least comfortable despite his employment status, and THEN he sprung the rent worries on her. So I didn’t see her as entitled so much as thinking “bad money management = red flag.” Sure, I can dig that. If he mentioned the rent at check time, then yeah, of course she missed an obvious social cue. I guess it’s possible she’s keeping some details vague to look more blameless.
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Yes, when people bring up lack of funds they do so for a reason. And they do it INSTEAD of inviting someone else to a pricey outing. At least that’s how it’s been in my (fairly extensive) experience.
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You know the classy thing for the blogger to do when he and her went on the walk in the park date – which was supposed to turn into two glasses of wine – when the final bill came (after she commended him on his courage to pursue his passion) was to split the bill. Not live in the 50s where the “genteman” picked up the tab. In this day and age she wanted to be wined and dined yet he is supposed to keep up with her standards and still pursue his passions. If she truly had ethics, morals and class she would have done that. Moxie is right he dropped hints from the start hoping she would clue the heck in. Which she tuned out, was too delusional or thinks the world should revolve around her. So finally he had to spell it out for her which she found distatesful – apparently subtly falls on her deaf ears.
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Hmm. Not only did he pick up the first tab – he apparently asked her to a few more pricey meals after that. If paying was a hardship for him…why on earth did he keep planning such dates? Bigger mystery…why do you think the ‘gentleman’ has no responsiblity in this?
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1. We do not know who suggested the extravant dates to follow.
2. Who put a gun to her head saying she had to say yes to the extravagance, could she not be thoughtful and suggest otherwise. Yes let’s emasculate the man oops sorry he MUST act like a gentleman so its his job!
3. He told her he was unemployed pursuing his passion ie translated in to proper words from his subtle hints on funds. I am broke trying to make my passion my life and livelihood. Do you think the date would have ended in wine dinner and dessert not to mention few more dates after along the same tangent if he put a kibosh on the extravagance from the start?
4. He was damned if he did damned if he didn’t.
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Maybe you should comment on her blog and set her straight.
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Presumably… this guy is the one who is orchestrating these wine and dine dates? And then casually mentions he might not be able to pay is rent? Either he’s accustomed to living beyond his means, or this was a hook to see if the woman would “help him out” by throwing some cash his way so he wouldn’t end up homeless. Gigolo perhaps?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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1. He was upfront to her on their walk that he was unemployed – limited or no fixed income. Honesty fine but really you have to say that right off the batt, maybe its just me.
2. She knew about his financial situation and willingly gobbed up the extravagant meals. Then has the gall to judge his lack of financial responsibility? Yet she commended him on his “courage to pursue his path” hypocrisy at its best. Only when it suits her it is ok otherwise how dare you!
3. Should he be dating with his fiancial lack there of? Probably not or keep it to simple things perhaps.
4. Both parties are equally to be blamed. Common sense thrown out the window.
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First off, both of these people are responsible for themselves and deserve what they get. She’s still worse than he is though. He’s probably really into her and wants to impress her or whatever. It’s not easy in that respect being a guy in this day and age. No matter what the situation is, the guy is still expected to pay. But she’s clearly taking advantage and not willing to understand. If she was really interested in him she would suggest less expensive alternatives. There are plenty of cases like this today where the woman makes more money than the man, yet the man is still expected to pay. It doesn’t make sense to me. If this is based on income, in this case she should pay. Better yet–and I’ve posted this here before–why doesn’t everyone just pay for themselves? What’s really wrong with that? We’re all adults, aren’t we? If you’re really interested in finding a relationship based on mutual love and respect, shouldn’t it start with fairness? Things were different 60 years ago when men were the major income earners, but we’re no longer in the 50′s and there are many women out there making a lot more money than men, even if the man is gainfully employed. I understand that women will say they spend money getting ready for a date on hair, makeup, clothes, etc, but if they’re dating around they’re not spending this money for just one date or just one guy. In any case, that’s on them. If a woman wants to fix herself up with expensive accouterments, that’s on her. I don’t expect it, nor do I want it. I’d rather meet a down-to-earth girl wearing jeans and a t-shirt with a pony tail and no makeup than a high maintenance dinner whore with a chip on shoulder.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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He shoudn’t have put her in the awkward position of knowing he would have difficulty paying the rent. If he is unemployed, he could still have plenty of money in the bank, she would have no idea. So nothing wrong with him offering to pay (though it would seem wiser to go cheaper and most women don’t go for the long dinner date anyway, at least initially). Once he did mention the rent I can see why she was somewhat annoyed; if he had not said anything else it probably would have been OK.
As for the issue of not mentioning financial means or stability in the profile, is this also to be taken as a recommendation of not putting income bracket on the profile (as on match). As a guy, the income of a woman has no bearing on my interest, though this might be different from the woman’s point of view. That is, is it better for a guy to put a high income (obviously better to put no income if it is low) or none at all?
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That’s a good question- I don’t put income bracket on online profiles because it isn’t anyone’s business. Unless I agree to mingle my finances with someone else, it still is none of their business. I cringe about the women who use that to judge their potential partners online.
I ain’t saying she’s a golddigger…
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I feel regardless of what the blogger did or didn’t do, that guy wasn’t very smart from the get go. Why put yourself in such a situation? Going for elaborate dinners when you know you can’t afford it? I don’t like it when women do that, even less when men do it. I didn’t read the whole story but it looks like the guy was offering each time and the lady took. I believe people have to be taught the hard way, in this case, even after getting the message about rent, I still wouldn’t have split. If I did, it certainly wouldn’t have led anywhere because that guy clearly doesn’t know how to communicate with his dates or readjust his desires with his means.
Regarding the blogger, she wants the guy to pay for stuff in general, whether it is for ice cream or caviar; the question is how far into the dating process does she expects that scenario to go?
Personally, I believe dating while being unemployed brings too many difficulties. If you’re used to a certain type of activities or going to some places and want to share those with a partner and money is scarce, it can become a pb very quickly. I know some people think women get offered dinners and operas just by showing up but that is not always the case. I appreciate it when dates pick up the tab and I want to be able to do the same as well.
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They are both entirely too swayed by money motives. He thinks he has to woo her with expensive dinners and outings that he can’t afford. And she thinks that being a “gentleman” is tied to paying for dates. In fact, it seems like she might be used to, and expect even, more expensive dates as a given considering how she choose to frame things.
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Money definitely matters. It’s a great topic to talk about especially when it comes to relationships. Dating someone can be fun and games but once you start to get serious, the topic eventually comes up. I’m 43, never married, and I’m at that point now where my date doesn’t have to earn a lot of money, but I would like her to have her finances straight (bottom line, she would need to have a good credit score). Shallow perhaps but, I’m looking to get settled down and get married and have kids in the near future. The last girl I dated was 27, just a couple of years out of grad school with a mountain of student loans and credit card debt. It would take her at least 10 years with a solid career track to even start being able to save. Someone I’m seeing now, 35, owns a modest home (a studio, like mine) and has paid off her student loans 3 years ago and has manageable credit card debt. We are more compatible when it comes to financing our immediate goals of marriage, kids and bigger house should our relationship further develop. But that’s just me.
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Dude, I am sorry you have issues. First of all, you were dating a SIXTEEN years your junior. For that alone most normal guys would shutup and not ask questions about credit score. Secondly, what is with the fixation on the credit score? Do you need your date to be able to borrow heavily? For what purpose? Her credit score has nothing to do with yours whatsoever (and wouldn’t impact you even if you were married). And, like Moxie said – what exactly did you expect her situation to be at 27? Sheesh.
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The last girl I dated was 27, just a couple of years out of grad school with a mountain of student loans and credit card debt. It would take her at least 10 years with a solid career track to even start being able to save.
And what exactly did you think her financial situation would be at 27 years old and just a couple years out of grad school? You must have known those two basic facts when you first started dating her.
It would take her at least 10 years with a solid career track to even start being able to save.
And you predict this financial strategy…how?
Someone I’m seeing now, 35, owns a modest home (a studio, like mine) and has paid off her student loans 3 years ago and has manageable credit card debt.
Almost every time you write in here, you mention the fact that you own your own place, have great credit, etc. I get why that’s important to you, but you seem terribly fixated on it. There *are* workarounds and ways to avoid having your credit affected by hers. And really, once these imaginary children appear, how much will her earning potential and financial security even matter since you’ll probably be the one supporting them for a while?
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I remember when I was 27, out of grad school and with a mountain of debt of all sorts, I started dating a guy who was my age, also right out of grad school and in an equivalent position professionally. Except, he had spent his early 20-ies being in the US Army, deployed to Afganistan or whatever other place like that. The Army paid for his grad school, and whatever money he earned while in the Army he saved since there was nothing to spend on. On top of that, he had life-long healthcare benefits from the Army. So the end result was – he was debt free, with great education and a great job, but hey – I got to spend my early 20-ies partying in NYC, not camping in a desert while being shot at. I remember feeling extremely inferior to him b/o the financial situation and realizing that I would be a drag had we gotten serious. Yet he didn’t seem to be bothered. We broke up b/o of other issues. My point here is, if anyone has a moral “right” to look down on a 27 yo with student loans, it would be a guy like THAT, who served his country, saved his money, realized his ambitions and put himself on a great career track. Not some 43-yo living in a studio apartment pinchiing pennies from his meager salary all his life with a good credit score being the only thing he can be proud of financially. Jeez!
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There’s also my scenario where post marriage I was saddled with the house & responsible for all mutual debt, mostly incurred by my unemployed ex husband, alone and not on a huge salary…..(yes, women can end up bearing the financial burden post marriage, surprise surprise) and have credit scores that are not so fantastic because of the debt burden such as mine. Incurred by someone other than me. Sh*t, as they say, happens, doesn’t mean I can’t manage money, au contraire, I handled it so well that everyone figured I could easily deal with the mountain of bills, while ex hubby got off scot aree.
Totally bogus argument. Really.
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