The Plight of The Single Man

Name: Pete
State: NY
Age: 25
Comment: I see a lot of  blog posts on this site about how many options men have in this city. However, what ages are being referred to is a major factor. For a 40 year old man dating 35 year old woman it’s the pick of the litter, not so much for a guy in his mid or late twenties dating women in their twenties. The ratio of women to men even under the age of 30 may technically be in the guys favor but is overcome by several obstacles. Young attractive women being able to fully rely on their looks and how big social circles are with such women in the city make it a difficult place to date as a guy under 30.

In person guys that are nice (yet confident, well dressed, and engaging) and don’t lead with money or status are usually immediately blown off by young attractive women as just another random guy that night hitting on them. Being that new york city has so many people, after living here a few months I’m learning it is very big on social circles and social status. I regularly hear women in groups ask a lady I approach at a social venue “do you know this guy?”. If you’re in the social circle most of the hard work is done for you and the guard is down. However, if you’re not in that social circle it’s usually very difficult. Often if having a good conversation with a young lady and do things by the book and introduce yourself to a group of women they will verbally and/or physically pull the girl away even if she’s resisting the pulling. Other situations such as a women you just met getting angry that you won’t buy her a drink or immediately losing interest after finding out you don’t have a 150k+ job I’ve experienced here but haven’t in other cities.

In the online dating scene I hear relatively often from attractive young women how they get a ton of messages every day (e.g. 50 messages). Also, at least 80% of such profiles I read have at least one of these three things 1) state something along the lines of “I’m really apprehensive about this site and trying to wrap my head around this whole thing” 2)“i’m hot and have these requirements…” 3) have virtually no text written. Sometimes I go to message women with such profiles out of curiosity who have recently logged in and it shows their mailbox as being full or they send pointless one sentence replies back.

Much of the problem is the fault of my fellow men. Bad behaviors of women are reinforced by guys hitting on them in person and sending them messages online even with these women demonstrating very rude/selfish kind of behavior.

Just putting it out there that the city is a tough place to meet women for a lot of guys that are young professionals even with there being a lot of attractive women and a ratio in the guys favor.

 

Here’s what I hear:

I’m an average guy who goes after women who are a) heavily pursued b)have a lot of options or c) are wicked obnoxious. None of them want me. It’s not fair.

Like women in their twenties and thirties pursuing the Don Drapers, men in their twenties and thirties are trying to woo the Bettys. It used to be that it was women accused of coming to Manhattan with dreams of meeting the rich i-banker. Now it seems that men have developed similar delusions. They want the “hot” girl. They don’t care how smug or self-important she is. They want the woman who will help them believe that they are more attractive or engaging than they really are. They want the trophy.

The problem is that they can’t compete. So rather than setting their sights lower, they decide to make it about how awful and entitled the women are. For the record, nobody is debating this point. I’m sure trying to date in your twenties as a male is brutal since a large segment of your market is in such high demand. But if you would just accept that you belong in a certain caste and stop trying to date out of it, your experience would become exponentially more positive.

Much of the problem is the fault of my fellow men. Bad behaviors of women are reinforced by guys hitting on them in person and sending them messages online even with these women demonstrating very rude/selfish kind of behavior.

Sometimes I go to message women with such profiles out of curiosity

Oh. I see. So when you message them, you’re not enabling them. Because you’re a Unique Snowflake. You’re “testing” them. Complete and utter bullshit. You don’t message these women out of “curiosity.” You message these women because you want them to go out with you. This, in a nutshell, is your problem. You want to be The Chosen one, and when you repeatedly fail, you heap all of the blame and frustration on women. You play a huge part in this and you need to get that. These women? They don’t have to choose you. They have more than enough options. Common sense would dictate that you lower your standards. But no. Much like the women who suffer from similar chips on their shoulder, you’re going to continue to go after women way out of your league because you can’t admit that you just aren’t what they are looking for.

Yes, I know. You’re awesome. If people would only give you a chance, etc. Sweetie, nobody owes you a Blue Ribbon just for participating. Everybody doesn’t get a trophy. Only the winners. You want to win, you compete in the appropriate class. If you want to compete in a higher class, you train for it.You do not sit around and whine about how unfair it all is. Nothing – and I mean NOTHING – is more unattractive than a weak man. Whining and complaining are inherently weak traits.There is no dignity in that. Not for men. Not for women.

There’s a lot of talk about the Sexual Market Place and the woman’s value or lack there of in it. Well, here’s what you guys need to understand. The more of these whiny, disgruntled men that enter the market place, the higher the value of the entitled woman.  That woman is the one all of you guys are trying to date, whether you admit it or not. I mean, if you were pursuing decent, kind, feminine women, you wouldn’t be complaining in the first place.

If all a woman wants is someone to call a boyfriend and to follow her around, she can effortlessly find one. The Alpha guys don’t want her and will use her for a month or two only to discard her. Once she’s had enough of that she’ll settle for The Beta, but she won’t see it as settling because The Beta showers her with attention and validation and gifts and meals. Anything to compete and keep her interested. She’ll continue to ride that carousel for years on end until she’s sitting alone in her apartment and telling everybody how she “chose” to be single or how she’d rather be alone than in a bad relationship or whatever mantra she repeats endlessly in an attempt to avoid the real reason she’s single.

Meanwhile the rest of us, aka The Ones Who Get It,  are out here happily dating decent, good, fun, attractive to us people. We’ve accepted our league. We’ve learned to spot the signs of someone who might pose trouble down the road. We don’t over-think or over-analyze every little thing. We employ critical thinking. We’re not talking about how hard dating is or how nobody responds to us because dating isn’t hard for us and people do respond because we know what we can pull. We’re not quitting. We accept that it all means nothing until it means something. We aren’t marking down days on the calendar until we can bray or write smug tutorials about how we found a boyfriend or girlfriend.

In short, we’re Dating Realists. Join us, won’t you?

 

 

 

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58 Responses to “The Plight of The Single Man”

  1. DC Phil Says:

    1. What he describes in his rant is echoed here in DC, though on a smaller scale and with a slightly different twist. Instead of the i-banker, it’s the politically-connected dude who the girls are after because they want to raise their status, obviously. They’re able to because of their looks and because they’re in such high demand because of their looks. But, Moxie, as you pointed out, the Alphas will discard them after one or two lays — because they can. After riding the carousel, as you also pointed, out then the find themselves on the wrong side of 30 pining away.

    2. He’s also correct in pointing out that his fellow men (this applies to older guys, too) enable this kind of behavior. Time and time again I hear about the storied “DC douchebag” and have run into a few myself. Even I can’t stand being around them. They tend to dress the same, act the same, and frequent the same bars and clubs. It seems that this is the kind of guy that the girls here in DC become accustomed to after they’ve been here a while — the most jaded being the long-term residents. When they meet someone like me, who doesn’t fit into this mold, they don’t quite seem to know what to do with me or how react to me. “Normal” has become anomalous — and by “normal” I mean a guy who isn’t pushy, intellectually interesting, and non-aggressive. But, you seek out what you’re used to, I guess, because you know nothing else.

    Also, you’re right, Moxie, with your comment about chasing the “hot” girl. He can’t compete and it’s better for him to lower his standards to something that he has a shot in getting. Know his market. One way to do this would be to move somewhere else where he has a better shot at getting what he wants. But, this is the paradox. Moving to a smaller city would increase his chances, but the pool is smaller and wouldn’t necessarily be of higher quality.

    3. He’s also correct about social circles and how this is more prevalent among the younger crowd. In the rare times that I’ve been to the DC clubs, I see this all the time. It’s usually a group of girls (minimum 3) who are probably fellow students, housemates, or co-workers out to “have fun” and probably attention-whore, snapping photos with their iPhone to post on Facebook. With guys, it’s a same-sized posse who show up later an are on the prowl, or just to hang out and drink with their buddies. The difference is, the guys won’t castigate each other if one of them decides to go off and do his own thing. Not so with the girls. Unless you know one of them and they can introduce you to the rest of the circle, lots of luck in trying to break that circle. This, along with the noise that gives me a stress headache, is why I hate going to clubs.

    4. I also think he’s a bit too optimistic about 40 yr old men having their “pick of the litter” with 30-something women. Though the 30-somethings wouldn’t be in the clubs where the younger and hotter women are, the older gals have their own issues, which have been covered here ad nauseum. Some stem from their overinflated sense of SMV when they were younger and hotter. Etc.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 8

  2. Erin Says:

    I have to say I think this is one of the best “Brass Tacks – Advice For Those Who Really Want It” posts you have ever written. So many times it gets said here that “Women go to other women for advice or validation and head down a path totally off the trail of where they want to be”. Many might think what you have said here is harsh, however, for someone who “How’s That Working For YOU” finds what they are doing (Men and Women) is not working they need someone O B J E C T I V E to tell them to sit down and figure out what the right game plan is for them. I realize this is a guy writing in and usually these posts come from women but I think most people at some point in their lives have felt the sting of “I’m great why don’t the people I want to like me, like me”. EVERYONE need to keep in mind what Moxie said “Sweetie, no one owes you a blue ribbon just for participating. I always thought when I was in my 20’s older people romanticized whatever the time frame was that they grew up in as being better then the 80’s. Now in 2012 I can only say I think all the things that people think make life so much easier with instant communication, gratification, etc., have really made it harder for those looking to find that one special someone.

    One of the most important gifts you can give yourself in your 20’s is really figuring out what it is that will make you happy and then making sure YOU can bring to the table that which will allow you to get the job, get the girl or guy or the life that you want. Stumbling around for l0 or 20 years going after the “Don Drapers or Betey’s” when you don’t want to do the work to compete in their high stakes arena just wastes your time. Ultimately, your time is all you have and I guess you have to live the years of your life to realize that but ask anyone over 40 and certainly over 50 what their regrets are and it usually centers around having wasted years of their life on things that didn’t matter or being to afraid to try for things that really did matter. Getting through each and everyone of our heads that it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks of your girlfriend/boyfriend, husband/wife, job, house, YOUR LIFE if you are happy. The keys to the Universe exist in that secret place of just figuring out what is really going to make you happy!

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 2

    • DC Phil Says:

      It takes time, though, to find out what makes you truly happy — and not after lots of trial and error, and being smart enough to separate wants from needs. Fulfilling your needs should really be paramount, but I think we all make mistakes in this area as we grow up and mature. Some take longer than others because of handicaps they started off with early in life (e.g., poverty, abuse, bad luck).

      Also, as a sociologist has said, “Self love is the love that others give to us.” That is, if healthy self-esteem is important, then where does it come from if not, first, from others? One can have too little self-esteem or too much. Again, it takes time to reach a balance for yourself.

      Unfortunately, we still live in a society that’s focused on externals. We’re not internally-focused, save for finding nuggets to put out there on display for the world to see. Confession is good for the soul, but on primetime TV? :) You get the picture.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        if healthy self-esteem is important, then where does [love] come from if not, first, from others? OTOH, how can others love you (or you love others) if you don’t love yourself?

        This, of course, appears to be a vicious cycle. Religious folks’ solution is to say God loves all of us. I personally don’t buy into that, but I am fortunate to have grown up in a family that, no matter how dysfunctional it was, loved me. And, for adults, friends are the family you choose; if they don’t love you (and for you, not for what you can do for them), cut them out of your life and find better ones.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

      • Elaine Says:

        So many times, “I love you” really means “I love to own you.” So maybe if we don’t know how to love ourselves, we can at least start out by owning ourselves, which is sort of what this post is about.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  3. joe-f Says:

    Even if you have a social circle, you will still lose. I am not as sure as Moxie that you are only chasing the in-demand women but if you are, then her advice is spot-on. You are 26 so welcome to adulthood. Life is about failures and then picking yourself up again. Some give up but the successful ones figure what went wrong and keep on pushing. Even a great player such as Michael Jordan, missed plenty of shots in his life. That didn’t stop him from taking the next shot.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 2

  4. SB Says:

    So then what is the advice for 20-something women? Is it the “pick the best guy who pursues you” approach?

    Or is there another way, as in a way to make yourself more attractive to guys you want to go after? Looking for specifics here :)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

    • SB Says:

      Maybe I should add that I don’t have trouble dating guys, getting guys to want to commit (girlfriend/boyfriend), and even had several proposals.

      I’m referring to getting the one you “want”

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 2 Thumb down 10

      • uesider Says:

        Why are you dating people men that you don’t want? Sure you know what you want?

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      The advice for men and women is the same:

      Carefully examine your target market. Look at who their target market is, as evidenced by who such people marry. If you do not measure up to that standard (as determined by them, not by you), then you only have two choices: improve yourself or aim lower.

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      • spaciousmind Says:

        Crotch Rocket, succinct and well said. I printed it out and put it on my bulletin board. I would like to add that if someone seems out of your league and is eager to commit, it should be suspect. Not that you should not take a chance, but go in with your eyes wide open.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  5. JTL Says:

    He didn’t realize just how competitive New York City dating is. I mean, come on, the most powerful, most beautiful, most influential people on earth live in this city. Now he’s getting a reality check. I moved to this city to push myself and to grow because I knew I wasn’t the best man I could be. It’s working. Since I’ve lived here, I’ve become more attractive, more confident, more experienced in life, more independent, etc.

    Just as six figures only get you middle class status in this city, even an average guy or girl by NYC standards would be a power player anywhere else. That’s precisely what makes this place so exciting and compelling. He should embrace it and kick his game up a notch.

    Moxie said:
    “The more of these whiny, disgruntled men that enter the market place, the higher the value of the entitled woman.”

    That’s true, but even more profound is that the more whiny, disgruntled men in the marketplace, the higher the value of that minority of elite men that get all the pussy.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 4

    • Craig Says:

      Just as six figures only get you middle class status in this city, even an average guy or girl by NYC standards would be a power player anywhere else. That’s precisely what makes this place so exciting and compelling. He should embrace it and kick his game up a notch.

      It’s true. I would advise against trying to impress with money here. This place will humble your ass right quick. My plan in going to law school was to be rich. But then I moved to the NYC area. And reality struck. People assume that you’re the mack-daddy if you make 6 figures. Nothing could be further from the truth, as that ain’t shit here. I’m comfortable, but my ass is solidly middle class in this area. A recent study shows that a person earning $123k in NYC is living an equivalent lifestyle as someone earning $55k in Houston. When I read that I was like “WTF?”

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  6. Craig Says:

    There is some truth to what the OP is complaining about – but it’s kind of bush league for him to complain about it. No offense, but it’s unmanly to sound like a whiny bitch. Instead, he should be changing his game plan so that it’s geared for success. Twentysomething hot chicks in a big city are going to have endless options and thus are going to want what they perceive to be the best. You can’t blame them for that. You would do the same in their shoes. If a dude is not the type of guy who can pull that type of chick because of his looks or lack of bank, then a dude has got to lower his expectations. Water seeks its own level.

    Want to increase your chances of meeting a young chick in NYC whose hot and yet down to earth? This is what you do:

    1. Avoid the hot clubs and lounges that are part of the “scene”. Such places breed pretentiousness. Instead, frequent neighborhood bars, pubs, and dives where you’ll find more approachable people.

    2. Date women who are the American-born daughters of first generation immigrants, or perhaps women who are fresh off the boat themselves. Usually such people don’t come from much and have a whole different value set than the type of woman raised in an affluent suburb or Manhattan and is used to daddy taking care of her.

    3. Date women who grew up poor. Even if they’re affluent now, you can be sure they resent social snobbery as much as you because they’ve been on the wrong end of it most of their lives.

    4. Focus on women from the outer boroughs or from Jersey and avoid most Manhattan residents with their various requirements like that you live mere blocks from them and other such nonsense. An around the way girl often blows away her Manhattan counterparts in the looks department, and has an equally nice personality to match. You typically don’t see as much snobbery among the bridge and tunnel folks.

    I followed all four of these tips when I found my wife. She was born and raised in Manhattan’s Chinatown as the daughter of poor Chinese immigrants and moved to Queens as an adult where she could live on her teacher’s salary. A 5’7 size 2 stunner, she somehow has no concept of how hot she is (thus explaining why she’s with me). And when I try to buy her expensive gifts, she chastises me for wasting money on her for non-essential things. All reasons why I liked it and put a ring on it.

    So to Pete the OP I say: stop complaining and instead do something to change your fortunes with women. Be it by improving yourself to meet the demand of your target market – or by changing your target market to one where what you can supply is in demand.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 33 Thumb down 6

    • DC Phil Says:

      Very sage, sound, and focused advice. My comments:

      1. Very spot on. Precisely my thinking concerning the clubs and other “sceney” places here in DC.

      2. In other words, foreign women are better than spoiled and entitled American princesses, especially those women who come from societies that are more focused on family, relationships, and other intangibles. Alternatively, find women who are new to the city and who haven’t been yet corrupted by it.

      3. I have firsthand experience with this. Those that grew up poor usually are much easier to deal with. The one 30-something I was dating late last year grew up poor and she had a value system that included thrift. She drove a used car and read lots of used books. She was also in the Peace Corps, so that gave her a glimpse outside of Fortress America. :)

      4. Makes sense in NYC. Not so sure about DC, though, since it’s more of an area than a city in the strict sense of the term. Even those that live in the bedroom communities out in Maryland and Virginia can be “typical DC.”

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 7

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        find women who are new to the city and who haven’t been yet corrupted by it.
        I got roughly the same advice regarding women where I live (not NYC, but another major city), and while I hadn’t realized it at the time, all of my serious relationships had been with women who moved here as adults. Now, I rarely date “natives” and have been much happier with the results.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

        • DC Phil Says:

          A plus is that you can act as guide to the newbies, which raises your status. More than once, I’ve seen new gals to DC how they say that they love exploring the city and finding new things. To me, that shows they’re at least somewhat open and adventurous.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

          • JS Says:

            Guys…I would say (from personal experience and observations) dating someone new to NYC (relocated within 2 years or less) is a big mistake….both men and women still tend to be in “kid in a candy-store” mode and really dont want to settle done.

            Once an NYC transplant has been here for 2 yrs then dating them makes sense but any sooner than that and you risk being just a “cool, wild NYC experience” right along side with discovering John’s pizza in the village and the time they went out and got totally lost but wound up at this awesome club, if only they could remember the name of it….flash forward two years, they realize it’s the rooftop at the Ganesvoort and it’s not that awesome.

            if you’re just looking for a fun fling or a one-night stand…then a new-to-town gal/guy is a great pick. For long-term, not so much.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2

            • DC Phil Says:

              Agreed. I should have clarified.

              A short-term fling with a newbie is preferable because, as you said, they’re high on the emotions of having moved to the big city and are in exploratory mode — including sampling what’s on offer in the dating scene.

              Long-term? Better go for the local. If nothing else, they’d be more established and less likely to move at the drop of a hat. I’m sure that NYC is like DC in that there are many transients who move in and out of the city for school., work, internships, short-term projects, etc. Transients aren’t connected to the wider environment. Though they might be curious about seeing the “off the beaten path” parts of the city, they tend to stick with their cohort and travel as a pack.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

      • M Says:

        I also agree with what you say. I dont know why you are getting so many thumbs down, but I especially want to highlight your last point. When I lived in the DC area, I heard a neverending debate over the quality of people in DC vs VA vs MD. Which was the best and which was the worst varied depending on who you asked, but they would swear up and down that they were all so different. They werent. They were all the same.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

    • JTL Says:

      Lots of great points there.

      However, I’ve lived here in Manhattan for almost 2 years now, plus traveling here a lot when I was younger growing up in southern CT. I honestly don’t find a lot of pretentiousness here, even from very attractive women.

      I’ve seen that when I approach a situation with an open mind and an open heart, and stay confident in myself, I get good responses from people. If you go into a situation with an attitude, then attitude is what you will get back. NYC people and probably big city people in general just don’t put up with needless shit. And they’ve seen so many people they can spot a phony or a non-genuine weakling trying to impress a mile away. So maybe that’s why they are often seen as rude or uptight. But the reality is they just don’t have patience for BS. Small town folks tend to be more flexible.

      I find generally the same rates of “pretentiousness per capita” among Jerseyites as among Manhattanites. Again, you reap what you sow.

      I partially agree on the nightclubs–I wouldn’t go in there looking for a real conversation and a lasting relationship. It’s a very sexual environment so you have to have very sexual game. For the more sexually driven, it can be a gold mine.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 5

    • joe-f Says:

      Great advice Craig to which I will add two:

      1) Avoid women in high paying professions such as investment banking, consulting, lawyers etc. They somehow lost the humility of growing up poor and now, nothing less than a managing director or a partner will do. Plus they are probably too busy to commit much to a relationship anyways.

      2) Evaluate how your girlfriend picks friends and loses friends. Does she surround herself with people of substance who you would want to be friends with or are they the superficial type who tries to outdo one another with the latest bag, shoes or hot boyfriend?

      My wife doesn’t like the club scene, born and grew up in South Korea, paid for her own education in the US and lived in Manhattan but never had the snobbery of dating only guys who live in Manhattan.

      She is hot, 5’6 size 4, voluptuous not fat. To illustrate personality, I am 5’4 and she is 5’9 in heels. Some of the other NYC girls I previously dated was bothered by the height difference but my wife was more bothered by my or lack of, in her opinion, taste in art.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 5

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        How is anybody that’s a size 4 voluptuous????

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 3

        • Angeline Says:

          Perhaps you’re confusing profile-speak voluptuous with men-speak voluptuous. She’s tiiny, but with breasts and hips?

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

      • DC Phil Says:

        I’d say it’s a cultural thing with her, having grown up in South Korea and focused on things of substance.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  7. A to the F Says:

    Haven’t read the article or any of the comments, but I’m confused, what’s difficult about being a single guy and dating? Its a piece of cake.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 17

  8. WO7 Says:

    We don’t know whether the OP is or isn’t pursuing women out of his league. I think that’s an unfair assumption. I have never agreed with Moxie’s theory that if a woman rejects you it means she’s out of your league in an objective sense. It just means that SHE believes she is out of your league (or that she’s unavailable).

    It is a true statement that women in NYC’s first instinct is to be stand offish and extremely picky. Perhaps the city breeds this kind of behavior, but it is there none the less. There is absolutely no correlation to how standoffish they are and their “league”. A lot of it has to do with what mind set they’re in at that moment, who they’re out with at that moment, and how many other guys have been pursuing them that day.

    Their friends also have way too much input into who they do and don’t date. This is something that is more common in cities; and among cities, more common in the top tier cities (NYC, LA, Miami, DC, etc).

    And what does all of this add up to? The fact that people in their 20’s (not just women) haven’t figured out how to tell the difference between what they really want and what they think they want. By the time women have hit their 30’s there is a much higher chance that they have figured it out (or at least are getting close).

    But ultimately, you can’t fight the system. It would be in a woman’s best interest to give any guy that she finds attractive a chance and to be nice to them. But we can’t force them to see that.

    All a guy can do, is make himself as appealing as possible, and keep putting himself out there.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

    • JTL Says:

      There is absolutely no correlation to how standoffish they are and their “league”.

      Definitely true. Go to any ghetto or trailer park and see how even the ugliest chicks think their shit doesn’t stink.

      By contrast, among models, socialites and many others of high status there are plenty of humble and down to earth people, which is often surprising to the “uninitiated.”

      Even the hottest girls often have deep-seated issues with confidence and body image.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 2

    • Going, Going, Gone! Says:

      You have hit the nail on the head. Why Moxie always assumes that if men here (or anywhere) relate how they are consistently rejected by women, it means that they are targeting out of their league I don’t know. I myself have tried to date some very average looking women with no better luck than the hotties. And I have several friends who have done the same … actually, I know of situations where some of them have tried to date women I would categorize as downright ugly .. only to be rejected just as often as pretty women. And the common thread? All of them are still on the singles’ circuit many months later.

      I have at times gone back through my search lists on dating sites and made it a point to pick out women that I would not have chosen on my first few searches, i.e. those that would not be my first choice in terms of their attractiveness. In other words, I have many times gone back and gone out of my way to choose women who were less attractive to me. Nada. Same result. I’d like to know if any women have done something similar – have you ever gone through your emails a 2nd time and said “Hey … this one’s not at the top of my list, but he’s not bad looking … let me write him back”? I’m almost willing to bet that no woman or very few women have done this.

      I’m sorry, at the very least … both genders are to blame for the difficulty in meeting people for LTRs in NYC.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 4

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        I myself have tried to date some very average looking women with no better luck than the hotties.
        What that should tell you – since you’re the common denominator in all of those situations – that the problem lies with in you. You’re looking at it as though the common denominator is women in general. It’s not.

        I’m sorry, at the very least … both genders are to blame for the difficulty in meeting people for LTRs in NYC.

        Nobody disagrees with that. But your specific problem isn’t a whole gender of humans. It’s you.

        I’ve approved this comment, L. But I’m not going to approve any more comments if you continue to bang the same drum over and over again. You say the same thing in every comment.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 17

      • Nick Says:

        Going Going Gone!, I’ve done the same exact thing. I live in NYC, and I’ve had a hell of a time dating women here, no matter how they look, how they act, or what caste they’re in. I use a dating site for most of them, and I rarely get a second date. Now the problem may lie with me, but I’ve also seen these girls on the site a year later and seen updates from them on my newsfeed, and they’re still single. If they’re such special people, why are they still single? I can only assume that it’s because they’re unwilling to settle.

        I think it’s a HUGE double standard to say that women should only accept the highest quality man, yet men should just settle for whatever they can get. I know I get shamed a lot for wanting to pursue women who are out of my range, but when a woman does it she’s strong and independent. In the OP’s post, you could reverse the genders and it would be no different than your typical Cosmo article.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

        • L. Says:

          Nick, it sounds like our experience is pretty common amongst men. Yet, when we speak up about it, we are chastised and ripped about it … and it falls upon deaf ears. This is really not a very impartial environment. Not saying it’s always the woman’s fault. But as I’ve said here many times, it would benefit us ALL to look inward, to become more self-aware, and to alter our dating strategies accordingly. Good luck!

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  9. New_NYC_Resident Says:

    Great thread! To the OP:

    – If you can get rich faster than you age, you can keep banging hot 30 year olds :-)
    Therefore, do *not* lower your standards, not just yet anyway. Work on the personal branding, image, networking, status, etc. We dont know if you’re good looking, so that may be a factor you can do little about (except maybe getting in shape). But there are so many things you *can* control, and improve. Men have it better than women in the sense that we can do something about the many things (other than looks), that matter to women.

    – The median family income of Manhattan residents is like $75k. If you make 6 figures, you’re doing just fine. There are thousands of quality women in Manhattan who will be just fine with a guy making a ‘lowly’ 120k. I am in my early 40s, and live in a tiny studio, and am a struggling entrepreneur. I’ve never done better with the ladies in my life….

    – You need to diversify your ‘attack': for example, learn ‘day game’. I’ve done this with success. Approach hot women in the middle of the day. Say “i’ve never done this before but i was wondering if you would like to meet for a drink some night”. If they dont recoil in horror, get their #. If you can sense that wont work, then hand them your business card and walk away. You avoid dealing with her friends in this scenario, and if she agrees to a date, you know she has some interest.

    – Ah yes, the cok-blok! that happens everywhere…. here’s the workaround: when you see a hot chick in a group, approach her and ask her “would you like to join me for a drink?”. And start walking to a part of the bar that’s away from her friends. If she joins you, it’s much less likely that her friends will “pull her away”. And you also know she is interested.

    – There are girls that actually get mad at you for not buying a drink? that’s too blatant of an entitlement mentality, and disrespectful to you (they are getting mad at you because you wont give them your money?!) – move on

    – Great advice above: so many other quality ‘types’ of women in NYC – B&T, daughters of immigrants, immigrants, transplants from small towns, etc.

    – So many ‘Don Drapers’ in Manhattan are absolute idiots when it comes to hitting on women. They’re blatantly and obviously after only one thing…. that’s an advantage for average guys like me: subtle seduction works best, and is especially refreshing for hot women who hear and see 99% of guys drooling like little puppy dogs.

    – I’ve lived in, and visited, cities all over the country. To be frank, i’ve never found any place that’s easier to get laid than in Manhattan. Maybe it’s different for a guy of your age. But for a guy in his late 30s or early 40s, Manhattan is paradise.

    – You need to create your own social circle and status. Are you going to lots of social, business, and charity events and networking? How is your personal branding? You need to ‘spin’ what you do so that women dont know right away what your income is. For example, i tell women that i am a self-employed venture capitalist, which is true. They dont know that my last investment was only 10k. But i dress, look, and talk the part…. so they dont know if i make 100k/yr or 1mil/yr.

    I’ve had moments like you… these are the moments that test you as a man, and drive you to either lower your standards, or improve yourself. Good luck!

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 10

    • DC Phil Says:

      My comments:

      1. Ah, if only that were true for me! As I want to keep my Fed job, I’ll have to climb the ladder more slowly. :)

      2. No comments on day game. Now that the weather is warming up, I’ll have to try more of that myself.

      3. On other “types” — yes, same here for DC. I like the internationals myself, and DC is a magnet for those as is NYC.

      4. Re: the Don Draper types. Translated into “typical DC” and you have the same thing. As I mentioned in my other comment, I find sometimes that the women who are used to the DC douchebag don’t quite know what to do with me. I don’t fit the mold. Hell, I had one 20-something say that I was much easier to talk to than the DC guys her age or slightly younger. “DC guys are so hard to talk to,” she kept lamenting. Hmmm . . . maybe because I know how to carry on an intelligent conversation?

      5. Easy to get laid in Manhattan? Not surprising. If so, then I need to take more trips up there on the weekends from DC. I’m still in the late-30s, early-40s age range. Maybe it’s easier up there than it is here in DC, where there still seems to be a contingent that’s in a hurry to get married.

      6. The “spin” part might tough for me since I have a Fed job and so fit into the “typical DC” mold. I’ve tried to deflect the question, but it doesn’t always work. I guess I’ll have to take on the shell of something more “DC.” Social circle, definitely, will be more important.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 2 Thumb down 8

    • Craig Says:

      The median family income of Manhattan residents is like $75k. If you make 6 figures, you’re doing just fine.

      Actually the median family income in New York county (Manhattan) is $50,229. This number is seriously skewed by the tens of thousands of poor people in Manhattan’s housing projects. About 17.6% of families and 20% of Manhattan’s population were below the poverty line, including 31.8% of those under age 18 and 18.9% of those age 65 or over. The fact is as of 2002, Manhattan has the overall highest per capita income of any county in the country.

      Someone is indeed doing fine in Manhattan earning 6 figures, but they are far from rich and living large. Someone earning $100k couldn’t afford to buy much more than a studio in a desirable neighborhood, which is why most people there rent. Despite having the highest per capita income in the country, only 20.3% of Manhattan residents lived in owner-occupied housing – the second lowest rate of any county in the USA.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

    • The D-man Says:

      Why all the downvotes? He gave specific, actionable advice to the OP. I’ve successfully used some of these tactics and heartily endorse them.

      Or maybe just being older helps. I’m in my 40s and have never had nearly the success in my twenties & thirties as I do now.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3

      • DC Phil Says:

        Yeah, but with what kinds of women and what are their age ranges?

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

        • The D-man Says:

          I’m not dating supermodels, if that’s what you mean, but I’ve dated a lot of attractive, quality women. Most of them are in their thirties. A few twenty-somethings.

          Recently I’ve been dating a 38 yo that I think is hot as hell and a really great person to spend time with. I couldn’t be happier. In fact, I stopped dating a 26 yo and a 34 yo to be exclusive with her.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

          • The D-man Says:

            Oh and just to be clear, I don’t only date younger women. I’ve had relationships with women my age and older.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

            • DC Phil Says:

              Same with me here in DC. I was asking more about age ranges than their looks on the supermodel scale.

              Most of mine have been in the early 30s. They tend to have their heads screwed on tighter than the 20-somethings, with a broader range of interests.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

  10. Mark Says:

    Pete;

    Sorry, but I’m not sure why you would believe it otherwise. In essence I’m reading what you might call a ‘I’m a nice guy just looking….’

    The profiles you read say pretty much the same thing-they are attractive and they know it. You said it yourself, you went ahead and tried to contact them….with predictable results. However, you happen to leave left out how many women you contacted that were less than drop dead gorgeous. IE Those who were maybe slight above or slightly below average but had other qualities that they did put in their profiles. I dare say you probably didn’t focus your efforts on the ones you just didn’t find appealing from a pic or two. Did you?

    Real life? I would guess you were doing pretty much the same thing. The “In” social circles, the trendy night spots, or at least moneyed crowd with plenty to toss around. Again, you didn’t say that you were also enjoying other spots where you were simply enjoying yourself and being you. Nor did you say anything about trying to go out with the Plain Jane’s that you bump into every day of the week who also may have a terrific personality or other qualities that are important to you.

    I would probably say that you are a nice guy. But what you are describing are those young ladies who know they have qualities in high demand. Maybe they do want nice. It’s also true they probably want more than just nice. Their age and beauty are their trump cards at this point in their lives. They can afford to be very selective as to who they want to be with because…well…they can.

    A couple of the other posters gave some great answers including some specifics as to how you might proceed. Especially since they also live in larger Metro areas such as yourself they have particular insight as to the situation. Think about ‘em.

    So ask yourself Pete: What are your trump cards? Work with those.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  11. Kurt Says:

    I don’t think that the OP is necessarily going to women out of his league – his problem is that the women his age are going for men out of their league and he’s left on the sidelines. That is definitely the case for many men in their mid-20s often even if they do have good high-paying jobs. However, time is on his side and the odds will turn in his favor when he is in his 30s. Men apparently become more attractive as they age from mid-20s to mid-30s, whereas the opposite is true of women.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 4

    • DC Phil Says:

      This is because those women are looking to settle down and they’ll nearly always go for someone older than they are. 30-something and 40-something men usually have more money and are more established, which is just fine for the woman with baby-rabies looking to find a partner. The younger women are still trying to figure out what they want in life and what kind of man they’re attracted to. Too bad that it’s usually the asshole that treats them badly and not the guy who would stay with them.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2

  12. offensivedan Says:

    Pete:

    Welcome to the real world Girls in their twenties play a lot of games and, as with most women, are interested in only money or power. If you don’t have looks you better have either of the former.

    Pete, women are bitches and it’s a fact you are going to have accept. Also, it does not get better when you get older b/c, at that point, you will encounter a lot of damaged, hyper-materialistic, self-centered women who still think they are the pick of the litter–in their late thirties and forties. Oh, and they blame men for all their problems and why they are single.

    Also, you need to think about your approach and only do so when your odds are good. For example, are you approaching women in a group by yourself or with other guys? If you are approaching by yourself that’s a mistake. You need a wignman to run interference for you and distract the target’s friend from cockblocking you.

    My other piece of advice is lie, lie and lie until you get the girl back home and in the sack. Most women don’t deserve the truth and, trust me, they would rather hear lies than be bored to tears by talking about the real you. Further, they want you to fit what they believe is an attractive guy in their heads. Plus, they want to be entertained and that begins by you acting like a fucking “trained monkey.” Not all women are like that. You will know when you meet a woman who you can be truthfu with and who you know will accept you for who you are.

    Pete, dating is a war with many casualties and little return. You need to start playing the game while you are young. Also, change your approach. It sounds like you don’t know what the fuck you are doing.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 17 Thumb down 10

  13. Pete Says:

    Im not going for the 10s, im going for the 7s/8s mostly. Attractive but not the model type. Even average looking women i find in day time venues are often just as big on social status and money.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

    • Pete Says:

      And i get dates, “the fade” is what usually happens before meeting.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

    • DC Phil Says:

      Obviously, this is the consequence of NYC. These women are surrounded by it, bolstered by their infatuation with SATC and being in NYC. I’d also bet the some of these average-looking ones are approached quite often by douchebags guys or supplicant “nice guys” in many venues, thereby inflating these women’s own SMV. In short, if a woman is approached often, she has options and she can afford to be picky, if not for just fending off the hordes of guys that are approaching her every day.

      It could be much worse. I have a buddy who’s working as a contractor in Afghanistan now. The ratio is 2000 guys to 300 gals. Very bad odds. And, I can bet you dollars to donuts that those women, even the ugly ones, have an inflated sense of SMV. “Queen for a Year,” is what they call it in the military while on deployment, and when the male-to-female ratio is very skewed towards women.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3

    • Angeline Says:

      Are you a 7-8? Are you overweight, unkempt, or with poor hygeine? Can you make conversation with a variety of people or is it a struggle? Outright rejection doesn’t come out of the blue. Being short is a handicap online, not as much in person.

      I don’t think you’re going to find substantive people in your 20s. They certainly aren’t in bars knocking back shots and uploading duckface pics to Facebook, I don’t care if they’re 10s. Spend the time becoming the best Pete you can be. Date all kinds of people, if nothing else you’ll get better at meeting and conversing. Practice flirtatious banter with *everyone* you meet. Old women. Ugly women. Even engage the men in light, breezy conversation. Almost everyone can improve in this area, and the confidence to meet and connect in a fun way will help a lot.

      Read some of the better blogs that discuss men and game and confidence. Try not to become so jaded you come across like Dan (even though he often makes some good points, his dislike of women. negativity and cynicism *has* to come through in person). The combination of building yourself up and practical tips should help, but one or the other alone is not enough.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 3

      • offensivedan Says:

        Tsk, Tsk Angeline. Angeline the advice I gave Pete has allowed my cynical, pissed off ass to get play from women. Even feisty ones like you, Angeline, who talk smack about male behavior. The point I make to Pete is that if he wants to meet the kind of women he’s after he’s going to have to change his game. He’s going to have to become like a lion hunting his prey on the plains of Africa. If the women he seeks like rick and powerful men he is going to have to play theri game even if it means lying. Of course, if he wants more than getting laid he is seeking the wrong type of woman. In NYC, they don’t give second chances and it’s a rough crowd. Obviously, his approach is not working.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

      • L Says:

        It seems to me a shame that you trivialize dating to a point where instead of looking for quality, you require “game”. Look deeper, and ye shall find. That game stuff has limited applicability. It shouldn’t be necessary for a guy to ‘run you over” with confidence. Some people exude that outwardly very naturally, others don’t … regardless of how much confidence they have on the inside. And there are many other elements to a man … just as there are many elements to a woman. This is like my saying I won’t date a woman unless she is so oozing with sexuality and sexiness on the outside that I can feel it. That’s not the way I approach dating because I know that there’s a lot more to a human being than this.

        Take the time to get to know someone on a deeper level and don’t be so inclined and anxious to find reasons to reject.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 6

        • DC Phil Says:

          Game has wide applicability provided you know how to use it properly. Agreed . . . steamrollering with confidence doesn’t work in all situations. This isn’t a one-size-tits-all type of thing. You adapt your game to the crowd you’re selling to. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn;t.

          As for knowing someone on a deeper level, yep, this takes time. On the other hand, wouldn’t you agree that there’s less time in which to make a good impression, and that someone might be disqualified prematurely because the other person was impatient?

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  14. offensivedan Says:

    Pete, the fade happens to most people and at anytime. Get used to it. Anyway, you should be glad you did not waste time and money on these “timewasters.” Also, I hate to be blunt,but if someone fades oin you before meeting it’s b/c they were never interested or had very low interest. Why? I don’t know. It’s a waste of time to figure out unless it’s keeping you from getting laid.

    I do know you have to be funny to keep a women’s interest up in the beginning. You have to make her laugh like a “trained monkey.”

    Btw, even 7/8 women have many options. And, yes, most American women are into power/money/status. It’s the American way of life.according to the E and Bravo channel.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

  15. someone Says:

    I have a sister, and she always gives me exactly the same response as this female blogger whenever I talk to her about my dating troubles LOL. I guess women tend to think alike. She also brings up the same “you’re not entitled to anything” and “lower your standards” cliches.

    I don’t think women understand the true scale and nature of the problems faced by guys under 35.

    Fundamentally, there is no intrinsic reason why the OP (who I assume is a reasonably normal-looking guy) should think much lower of himself. If he were a girl, with his exact same background and age, he’d be in extremely high demand. The only difference is that the odds are stacked against young guys and he happens to be in that very tough competitive age bracket for guys, so he has to wait.

    In his situation, the only available girls are the really ugly and fat ones; and even the ones who are nominally “average” (their only distinction is that they aren’t fat) are snapped up surprisingly quickly.

    The advice to lower his standards is a little misguided. I’ve done that myself and I wouldn’t recommend it, because the costs far outweigh the benefits. Just because the OP is forced by circumstances to date down doesn’t mean that his value system or culture will be compatible with the bottom-of-the-rung girls who are the only ones available to him right now. By pretending that the average guy with a good job and a good family has something in common with the poor, obese, unhygienic, dumb, or deviant girls he’ll be forced to date (whom he can’t even introduce to his parents) is only doing a disservice to himself, and will stress him out enormously.

    I think women who talk about “lowering your standards” believe that means going from an 8 to a 5. No, even the female 5’s in their 20s are already snapped up and there’s intense competition for them.

    What would I recommend, based on my experience?

    1) If you can’t get even remotely what you want right now, it’s better to be alone.
    2) Use this time to save up some money. If you have any hobbies/interests, feel free to invest in them.
    3) Advance your career. Spend money on things that have a guaranteed rate of return (i.e., they are guaranteed to make you happy). Spending money on pursuing girls right now has a miserable rate of return, maybe 0.01%, so it’s definitely not worth it.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 4

    • DC Phil Says:

      All very good advice. Things are very different now than when I was his age in the 90s, and I was living in a small city. My main trouble back then was insecurity about myself as a person and finding other people with whom I could relate. Think sports vs. arts and classical music, and you’ll get my drift. Here in DC, the latter is still the province of the older crowd (50 +). In my hometown, go higher in age, and reduce many more of the numbers.

      Indeed, it’s better to be alone or with a small group of close friends than trying to prove your woth chasing girls who have no interest in you because you can’t compete. Instead, as you said, spend time and money improving yourself so that you can be comfortable being alone and that you have accomplishments you can be proud of. Save money, invest, and travel. Also, invest time in understanding the female mind. It will reap many benefits. If nothing else, it teaches you what to avoid in the future.

      Things will get marginally better as he gets older (read: 30 +), but he also has to keep in mind that the quality of what he’s pursuing might not. Still, if he works on himself and can make himself happy, that will carry him in the long run.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  16. Leon Says:

    Same old song and dance. It seems normal when women talk about their dating woes and it is seen as OK to blame us men for it. Yet, when we talk about ours, we are chastised for it. This article basically tells men to that they should just take whatever they can get and be glad that they were able to get that. Complete bullshit. Why is it I only ever heard of needing to use “GAME” while I lived in the states and I have never heard it being spoken about over here? Seems to me the dating game in the states is a mess, but its seen as normal to point the fingers at us men yet we get attacked for doing the same thing, nice. So glad I found love with a Non US woman who laughs at the game as hard as I do. Then you wonder why marriage and relationships in general are on life support in the U.S.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  17. Mark Mallarde Says:

    Women are to blame. Sorry, but it’s not alway “it’s everybody’s fault.”

    Here is why. Young women — even the good-looking ones — are dating over their heads. In particular, they date men that use them for short term flings but men that will not commit to them long term.

    The women cannot admit to themselves that they are being used as f-ing machines and get used to dating men out of their league. It is intoxicating to them.

    The problems start to arise when the near 30. For 99-percent of women, their looks start to go. For some average looking women, they lose their luster in a matter of a few years. Their window of opportunity is gone forever.

    For those that remain attractive in their 30s, their ability to net the dynamic, sexy, wealthy guy slowly diminishes. Their standards, however, do not go down one iota. They find themselves single more. They become more independent. Soon their fertility becomes an issue for suitors.

    Then around 38 or 39, they finally lower their standards and look for “nice guys” that they can fool into bailing them out of their massive miscalculation of how to spend the prime years of their lives.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  18. balboa Says:

    Late to the discussion…but it’s been a fascinating read. Seems like many of the readers (though certainly not all) haven’t been exposed to some key conceptual framework to understand the dynamics of the contemporary dating market. I would suggest RooshV.com, Dalrock’s blog and the Rational Male blog for a start.

    Basically, even the average (say, 6s and 7s) female in NYC is able to get sexual attention from the alpha males (8s and 9s). After all, a male 9 will still sleep with a female 7 for a short time before moving on. So the female 7 thinks that a 9 is in her league and that’s what she holds out for, even if she can never get such a high status male to commit.

    Meanwhile, the male 6s and 7s are left out in the cold and don’t know why they can’t get a woman of similar attractiveness to date them.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

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