He Said/She Said – Nice Guys, Hook Ups & Cheating “Boyfriends”

Here are some interesting questions from last night’s He Said/She Said panel. (Where I may or may not have had a few Cosmos and am now suffering from a hangover.)

 

If your date wants a hookup but not a relationship, what would be an appropriate way for him to express this?

The tricky part about this is that many women, if they receive such a proposal, will wonder what it is about them that makes a guy think she would be open to that. She’ll wonder if he thinks she’s “easy.” The answer is: probably. But being considered “easy” isn’t necessarily a bad thing. “Easy” to a lot of men often means “simple to deal with/doesn’t have hangups.” If you’re somebody just looking for a casual hook up, then put up a profile on OKCupid and select “short term dating” as your only relationship choice. Do not select “casual sex” because you’ll repel the stable women and attract a lot of the crazies. I’ve come to learn  that it’s a certain type of man or woman that puts their picture up on a profile and openly states they’ll have casual sex. Rarely are those people easy to deal with. Or, you know, healthy. Don’t drag a woman out to meet you under the guise of being open to a relationship and then spring on her that you’re just looking for something casual. If you meet a woman off line and things are clicking and you’re feeling a mutual attraction, then ask her if she’d like to go back to her place or yours, but tell her you’re not looking for a relationship. Not every woman will slap you in the face or call you a masher. Women say they want a man who is honest? Then be honest.

 

Why do women say they want a nice guy but then meet one and want something else?

Easy. Because either they don’t really want  a nice guy OR the guy isn’t so much “nice” as he is “boring” or “weak.” Women want a “good” guy. But we also want a guy with an edge. A bad boy with a good heart. Not only do many of us get bored with a guy who is “too nice” but we long for – whether we will admit it or not – that little bit of drama that comes from not knowing where we stand. A guy that is too accommodating or available is usually deemed “weak” by a woman. I’m not suggesting that a man be rude or mean or abusive. But he should be mysterious and not totally available. Same goes for women. When we say we want a “nice” guy we typically mean a guy who isn’t a selfish asshat. That’s not the same as “nice.” The problem isn’t that we don’t want the nice guys when they cross our paths. It’s that we are not properly defining “nice.”

This question comes from a recent comment. It brings up an issue I’ve wanted to address ever since reading a post here.

He played the part of the fantastic boyfriend to the hilt, so much so that it was like living in a Hollywood movie – and then out of the blue and without any warning, he pulled the “freeze-up,” at which time I discovered that he was online trying to date and have sex with other women (or perhaps had already been doing it while we were together – yuck!), so I ended it. – Terry

Here’s the deal, ladies. If your “boyfriend” is online or has an active profile on a dating website and has his picture attached to it, he was not your boyfriend. Like, at all.  There was no “relationship.” I want everybody to really ask themselves what kind of person does this -  post a photo on the internet, probably on the very site where you and they met, and is openly trolling to dates or sex. While I’m sure there are a few sociopaths out there, the chances that all of the women and men involved with that post I linked to actually met one is slim. No, these people either were “dating” someone for a short period of time and made assumptions, imagined the relationship in their head or couldn’t wait to join the club of people who thrive off being wounded and have been “cheated on” by “boyfriends.” It gives people a sense of community and makes them feel like they have more relationship experience than they actually have. They take something innocuous, that means nothing, and turn it into a drama simply so they can say they once that happened to them, too. If you’re on a dating website skulking around for “proof” of infidelity, you’re “relationship” is clearly pretty tenuous, if it exists at all.

 

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36 Responses to “He Said/She Said – Nice Guys, Hook Ups & Cheating “Boyfriends””

  1. LaLa Says:

    “Why do women say they want a nice guy but then meet one and want something else?”

    A lot of self-proclaimed “nice guys” are weak, have no backbone, are passive-aggressive, or manipulate. Women definitely want a nice guy. But we also want a man. One who knows how to lead, protect, stand up for us, take charge of the situation if need be, and won’t let anyone walk all over him. There’s a huge difference between a good man who is strong and a self-proclaimed “nice guy” who has no backbone and thinks because he lets female friends walk all over him, that they owe him a relationship. I think most women want a man who treats them well, and is a good person, but also shows a strong and rougher more masculine side. Just like men usually want a good woman who has a more feminine side, and find it off-putting when she acts too masculine. Women find the “nice guys” who act more feminine and weak off-putting as well.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 6

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    • Kurt Says:

      If a man is inexperienced with dating,most women will walk all over him until he finally gets some experience. I think that a lot of women will look past a decent guy who is inexperienced with dating because they cannot tell the difference between a man who is simply inexperienced and a man who truly is a wimp. Dating truly is a war, although men do have a longer window of opportunity to figure things out as overly picky women get theirs when they reach their 40s.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 2

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      • offensivedan Says:

        Kurt this is what I also have preached. dating is like War where even the wounded are bayoneted and left to die.

        Some women, even in their forties, still continue to play games and treat guys like crap; and, then, they wonder why they are pumped and dumped.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 7

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    • Howard Says:

      Don’t worry Lala, younger men do the similar thing, not take the loyal dependable woman seriously enough. Men typically look for three women rolled into one. The trophy, the Loyal dependable woman and the Freak in bed. If a man gets two of these he probably did ok. Women similarly look for three men. Rich guy, Good guy, and Mr.Pantysoaker. If she gets two of these in one man, she probably did ok too. It really seems getting all three is nigh impossible in your age bracket.

      Interestingly enough, smarter people always make sure they get the second, because in the end , that is the one that counts the most. So it’s up to you to figure which of the other two you want.

      The closest a woman will come to getting all three is with the very handsome and debonair older guy. And that’s because rich guy never has time time to sit and listen to a woman whine unless he is older. Similarly the closest a guy will come to getting all three is with the much younger woman. This is probably why we see these scenarios so often.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

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      • LaLa Says:

        I found a guy who’s 2 and 3 and although I want to live comfortably, I don’t need to be rich. I know some women think money is everything, but all I see are super long work hours and more focus on work than family. To me, it’s more important for a guy to be around more than to live super wealthy.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

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  2. joe-f Says:

    Women want a “good” guy. But we also want a guy with an edge. A bad boy with a good heart. Not only do many of us get bored with a guy who is “too nice” but we long for – whether we will admit it or not – that little bit of drama that comes from not knowing where we stand.

    I think this is the problem with the women I met and that is why they are single. They are asking for a bad boy with a good heart, a mythical creature: they might as well look for an unicorn. The reason you don’t know where you stand is because the guy is not sure about you so he is exploring his options rather than committing. If you want a relationship where you are number 1 when there is nobody better out there and you crave that excitement of not knowing where you stand in his heart then you are not ready for a serious relationship.

    The other guys here can correct me but men are simple. We know where we stand with the people closest to us. If there is a chance someone could stab us in the back, we wouldn’t let that situation linger. We will resolve the uncertainly, cutting off that person if necessary. The reason we keep women on a balancing beam is because we like to be with you NOW but if someone better comes along, then you will be #2 or #3.

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    • The D-man Says:

      I used to be too much of a nice guy, but then I learned the difference between a good guy and a nice guy. In a nutshell:

      * A good guy says what he thinks (within social conventions) while a nice guy says what he hopes the other person wants to hear.

      * A good guy is unashamed of his interests, including sexually. A nice guy fears what others would think if they found out.

      * A good guy knows that not every woman will be attracted to him, and if a particular woman he desires doesn’t return his affections, he knows there are other fish in the sea. A nice guy lives a life of scarcity and pins all his hopes on whatever girl happens to be giving him a shot at the moment.

      * Relatedly, a good guy has standards. He evaluates a potential mate as closely as she is evaluating him. A nice guy takes whatever he can get.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 42 Thumb down 2

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      • M Says:

        I think when you said “good” you meant “confident”. Big difference; the two arent really related. The difference between good and nice guys is that the nice guys care a little more what people think and they try harder to be liked.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

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      • Steve Says:

        34 to 1, is that a record?

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

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        • M Says:

          Whatever, man. I remember the post a couple weeks ago and the big discussion on here about how women, more than anything else, want a man to be confident. Those things above that D-man says a “good” guy does? They arent signs he is good, they are signs he is confident. Go back and read what he wrote and tell me these are more things a “good” guy does than they are things a confident guy does.

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    • L. Says:

      Exactly, Joe. What women fail to realize is that that combination DOESN’T EXIST! That’s why the ones that keep insisting on this are the ones that are perpetually single … and the ones who realize that they have to compromise are the ones sitting at home with their families right now instead of reading this blog.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 2

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      • Christina Says:

        It does exist, but it’s rare. My current husband is one of the “unicorns,” and my late husband was one, too. I probably wouldn’t advise looking for one, specifically. Too many women who do this just look for the bad boy side, and that’s what they end up with. I was looking for a man with good character who was comfortable in his own skin, and I guess I wound up with reformed bad boys who still had a little bit of that edge.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4

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  3. L. Says:

    ‘Easy. Because either they don’t really want a nice guy OR the guy isn’t so much “nice” as he is “boring” or “weak.” Women want a “good” guy. But we also want a guy with an edge. A bad boy with a good heart. Not only do many of us get bored with a guy who is “too nice” but we long for – whether we will admit it or not – that little bit of drama that comes from not knowing where we stand. A guy that is too accommodating or available is usually deemed “weak” by a woman. ‘

    As I said to Joe, this combination doesn’t exist. And as long as you continue to think that having “drama” is a desirable thing in a relationship, you will continue to pursue the wrong thing, continue to be disappointed, and continue to come back whining that you can’t meet a suitable man.

    Yes, D-man (and others), it’s never desirable for a guy to be a doormat, for a guy to not have a backbone, for a guy to be “walked-on”. But NOT every guy is the consummate alpha-male – there are some who have some alpha-male qualities, though. You are never going to find the perfect man. And to actually be looking for “bad boy” qualities, be looking for drama, and be looking for someone who doesn’t let you know where you stand doesn’t make sense. Look for that, and believe me, you will find it, it will fail, and in the end, you will be miserable and unhappy about it and you will fall into the same pattern over and over and over again … and not achieve a quality LTR.

    And you know what? A working relationship between two mature people is a partnership. Sometimes the guys makes the decisions, sometimes the woman, sometimes you do it jointly. The people who have come to this realization aren’t on the singles market anymore.

    I’m not saying that you shouldn’t expect a man to be a man. But I am saying that there is no perfect alpha-male out there who is worth a damn in terms of being a LTR quality man. And sometimes, you have to weigh what’s truly important. This “nice guy” stuff was never an issue – nothing was even published about it — until a few years ago. Years back … when marriages were much more successful than they are now, there was no “delineation” between “nice guy” and “bad boy”.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 4

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      As I said to Joe, this combination doesn’t exist.

      Yeah. It does. There are plenty of men with the so-called “alpha” qualities with the good hearts. Hint: Those guys aren’t sitting on a blog day in and day out banging the same drum over and over.

      When women say they want a bad boy, they’re not necessarily talking about the dangerous unavailable guy. They’re talking about a guy who makes them work for it a bit, Who keeps them on their toes. Drama doesn’t mean angst. It means mystery.

      I’m beyond exhausted listening to people who clearly sit at home lurking on a blog lecturing everybody – read: people who are actually dating – about how we’re the ones not getting it. We ARE getting it. YOU’RE not. Get it??

      Stop trying to sabotage everybody else simply because you haven’t managed to figure it all out.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 20

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      • L. Says:

        Be beyond exhausted if you like, because we’re beyond exhausted listening to people who clearly THINK they know what they are looking for, who clearly pursue and are compelled to be interested in the wrong types of people, and who clearly don’t learn from their mistakes and continue to come back to places like this and complain that they can’t meet nice people when it’s completely obvious to us that they’re not really trying. Why … pray tell Moxie … why … if you have things SO figured out … are you (and others here) still single?

        And what makes you so clairvoyant that you’re able to know where anyone sits and how much we lurk? And what makes you SO able to know that even if that were true, that this is a bona fide linkage to either knowing or not knowing what one is talking about or whether one is having success or not in the dating world. With all due respect, you sound awful cocky and condescending to me for someone who is single, and who supposedly writes a dating blog where people might come for help or to learn something … where one would expect you would be much more neutral if you were really in that position. Are you so high and mighty that you think you can’t learn anything at this point in your life?

        Suit yourself, Moxie. That’s all I can say. I’m done commenting on this one. Take what I have to say or leave it.

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        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          Why … pray tell Moxie … why … if you have things SO figured out … are you (and others here) still single?

          I’m not the one constantly complaining.

          I get dates. I get replies to my dating profile. I date/am dating. People respond to my replies to their profile. I have relationships with people. I’m not constantly whining that everybody is so unfair and shallow and going after the wrong people.

          You’re the one letting everybody within earshot know you can’t get a date or when, you do, can’t get anyone to stick around. Therefore, why should anybody listen to you?

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 14

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      • joe-f Says:

        I don’t think the mystery can hold for the long-term relationship. It is always interesting to date that new person, to learn about them and to see them naked for the first time. Over time, the mystery fades. I am perfectly cool with people who choose to swing from one short-term relationship to another to discover new mysteries. For others such as me, perhaps we want more transparency.

        I agree with the D-man that there is a difference between the good guy and the doormat. Guys should set standards and walk away if his girl tries to walk over him.

        After being married, I find it is not about making my wife work for it or keep the mystery. Rather it is about having transparency and then working together to make our relationship interesting. Of course, I don’t let her get out of line but I always put her first and I know I am her first. Maybe those guys who have been married longer will say something different but transparency has given me a happier relationship.

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        • Selena Says:

          And one of the benefits of being transparent? You continue to learn new things about each other as you go along. There is less fear of holding back. And being rejected for it.

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  4. Elros Says:

    “The problem isn’t that we don’t want the nice guys when they cross our paths. It’s that we are not properly defining “nice.””

    I think you are right on target. As young boys, “nice” means being passive (e.g. conform to rules, be quiet, don’t play rough, etc). “Nice” behavior gets reinforced by women authority figures in school and at home, and boys are punished if they are not “nice.” As a result, there are many men that have been conditioned, at some level, to act passively around women. Women today do not want a passive guy, so it is up to men to realize the difference between “nice” and “good.” Your suggestions help clarify that distinction.

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  5. Kurt Says:

    The “nice guys” would be better off making themselves physically attractive enough so that women chase after them instead of the other way around at least until they learn how to handle women. If a woman is already very attracted to a man, she is generally more forgiving of “nice” behavior and is less likely to try to take advantage of a man in a way that will lead her to think he is too “nice,” at least in the beginning.

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    • The D-man Says:

      Sure, looks matter. But I’ve heard lots of women talk about hot guys who, after talking to them for five minutes, find that they are boring or insecure and don’t see them again.

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      • Kurt Says:

        Yes, that may be true of some vain men who don’t have much going for themselves other than looks. However, there are a lot of “nice guys” who are simply shy at first, yet really can carry a conversation and have their own interests. A man like that could be a good catch for a woman who made the first move.

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        • uesider Says:

          All good on paper, except women virtually never make the first move with a “nice” guy. You don’t have to be a PUA @hole but you do have to learn to be assertive and project confidence. Unless you want to be alone, that is. Women who have options generally don’t make the first move. You figure out who that leaves.

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  6. Dark Sarcasm Says:

    “Why do women say they want a nice guy but then meet one and want something else?”

    The phrase ‘nice guy’ needs to be re-evaluated.

    What women should be whining to their girlfriends about instead of saying, “Why can’t I find a nice guy?” is, “Why can’t the men I’m ATTRACTED to treat me respectful?”

    So the key here fellas is, learn how to be an ATTRACTIVE man, learn how to dress. To bathe. How to behave around women. What kind of conversations to have. Or if that’s too much, Learn how NOT to behave around women; stop being clingy, don’t call all the time. Stop following them around like a lost puppy. You don’t have to try to be James Dean, but DON’T be Steve Urkel either.

    Because women DON’T want a NICE MAN, they just want the guy they’re attracted to treat them with respect. Open the door, pull out the chair, don’t paw all over them on the first date, watch your mouth with the language…but the first key is to learn how to be a more attractive man.

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    • Howard Says:

      Guys have to stop putting too much importance on any one woman until she proves she is worth it. Of course the converse applies for women putting too much importance in any one man. I think the nice guys that get parodied by women are really the guys who get stuck too quickly on a woman and start doing pandering because of their insecurities. Women screw up their sons by teaching them to pander when that is the worst possible behavior.

      People will blow hot and cold with you, and there is really not much you can do about it but say “next” in your mind. I really wished we didn’t have to interview many candidates and juggle people. But that is the unfortunate world we have, where everyone wants a unicorn and has become super picky. So our only protections from fickle behavior from others is fickle behavior on our part. And that scares the hell out of me to even say it. Guys like me have adapted to it, and do well enough from a numerical perspective, but that doesn’t mean we have to be comfortable with it or not point out the obvious stupidity of it.

      If Moxie or anyone else would wish to imagine that we are all losers when we point this out, let me assure you that is not the case. This is a dating blog and these are the types of discussions men should have, if a higher ground is ever going to be reached. And that is a place that benefits both genders. There are many people on this board, both men and women that have good relationships going, but like the banter that takes place here. Our prescence here is not necessarily an indication of desperation or inability to attract the opposite sex.

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  7. offensivedan Says:

    Man, I do believe the nice guy gets screwed. At this point, the average man is so screwed up trying to figure out what women want and how they want to us to act so that we can get a g/f and/or get laid. I use to go out with women, treat them well, make them laugh and not hear back from them. Probably, because I was too nice. So, one day I said f** it. I’m just going to do what I want and satisfymy wants, And you know what? I get more ass which si what a lot of women are only good for these days.

    So now, I have changed my approach and I just try to seduce every women I go out with. Honestly, I do. Does it worlk all the time? No. Do I act like a prick? No, I open doors for them and pay for dates, for example. But, at the end of the date, i want to know where I stand and get my money’s worth. Of course, I can tell when she does not like me and I feel the same. At that point, i just becaome a dick, especially if she regales me how other guys are so into her. If they think I am a douche and don’t want to see me againI can live with it. As a friend told me, just because someone thinks you are an a-hole or douche does not mean you are wrong.

    Also, Dark Sarcasm mentioned don’t paw all over them on the first date. Man, I have been on first dates where it got all hot and heavy and I pawed–a lot. So, why not? You need to challenge a women and her boundaries, for christ sakes! How else do you bulid attracticion? Of course, you need to use your judgment on whether she would receptive to being felt up. But, as far as i know a woman will let you know how far you can go. For example, if she lets your hands roam clearly she does not mind you PAWING all over her.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 13

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  8. bill Says:

    we can talk about this to death at the end of the day everyone makes huge compromises to in a relationship unless you want to be old and single

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  9. bill Says:

    we can talk about this to death at the end of the day everyone makes huge compromises to be in a relationship unless you want to be old and single

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  10. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    “If your date wants a hookup but not a relationship, what would be an appropriate way for him to express this?”

    A man who suggests a hook up on a first date or without knowing you is communicating one thing: he does not care about you or whether you would be offended by his brazen suggestion. I strongly disagree that men “read” women’s level of easiness and conclude that she would be amenable to the request and not offended. She’s a catch, isn’t she! No. He will try because he doesn’t care that she may say no and doesn’t care that she may never talk to him again. If he cared even a marginal amount, he wouldn’t risk it. Read Offensive Dan’s comment. Just because some women are flattered,,or impressed with so-called honesty, doesn’t mean it’s not disrespectful and intended to be so.

    “Why do women say they want a nice guy but then meet one and want something else?”

    This is a trick question. The only correct answer to this question is “who gives a shit.” By asking the question in the first place, you have identified yourself as someone (presumably a guy) that needs to find out what women want based on what women say, so that he can become the kind of guy that woman say they want. Women, in my experience, find that kind of supplication very unattractive. That’s the problem. Stop caring so much what women say. NIce is just a word.

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  11. ctygrl917 Says:

    “Women want a “good” guy. But we also want a guy with an edge. A bad boy with a good heart. Not only do many of us get bored with a guy who is “too nice” but we long for – whether we will admit it or not – that little bit of drama that comes from not knowing where we stand.”

    I have to correct you on this….women aren’t looking for a bad boy per se….just want a guy who shows a lot of confidence without acting like an arrogant douchebag. I’ll take that any day over” Mr. Not let me know where I stand. ” The nice thing is a turn off because being too nice without confidence is weakness. Guys, be nice and just show that you still value yourself enough not to be a doormat. THAT is sexy.

    And second thing Moxie, enough already with the condescending tone toward women that every time a she gets screwed over it’s probably her own delusion about their non-existing relationship. Been hearing this a lot from you lately. Isn’t anyone allowed to be disappointed when you see someone you are dating online? Or are we all supposed to act like non-emotional stones? I have a heart, and when someone I just met and like disses me, I’m allowed to feel bad about it. Stop acting like every woman out there is a drama queen.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Isn’t anyone allowed to be disappointed when you see someone you are dating online?

      Sure. That’s normal. What’s not normal is depicting a situation where a guy you’re dating has an active profile as though he’s “cheating.” Because most likely, you and he were never exclusive to begin with. That’s not cheating. If he’s brazen enough to post a profile with his photo attached, especially on a site where you and he met, then guess what? He never cared about you to begin with and was probably upfront about that either verbally or with his actions.But yeah, let’s ignore the fact that these women probably either deluded themselves in the first place, have their own myriad of emotional issues that have them monitoring the guy’s online activity and imagining these slights, or are blatantly lying to whatever crowd of damaged masses they attract with their blog just so they can vicitmize themselves and act all above it. Those women are drama queens.

      I have a heart, and when someone I just met and like disses me, I’m allowed to feel bad about it.

      Well, if you just met him, then he’s probably not your boyfriend, is he? In which case, the above snippet has nothing to do with you. But you go ahead and personalize the post.

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      • The D-man Says:

        Given how often I’ve seen “No married men!” in women’s profiles, there must be quite a few men who are most definitely in a relationship and yet they brazenly put themselves out there as available.

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  12. offensivedan Says:

    After reading these comments, I think I can distill dating to this. Dating is just a big experiment and experience, to boot. It’s not an exact science. You don’t know how a person–man or woman–is going to react. For example, some women are open to making out on the first date while others are not. Some women are open to sex on the first date while others are not. You don’t know until you broach or escalate your contact with a woman. At times you will crash and burn and, at other times, you won’t.

    Further, to me dating is just a shot in the dark. In fact, the first date is the easiest one in my opinion because, naturally, both parties will be very enthusiastic to know each other. The difficult part is the second date–that’s where the critical juncture is. You never know what wil work with women. I’ve gone with “pulling back” and limiting contact to escalating contact. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. I find that online dating typically ends on the second date–no matter what you do.

    So, in summary, if you want just a hook-up go for it and just express it properly. I would not come out and say that’s what you want, however. Rather, escalate the date and see where it goes. After all, a woman will let you know how far she will go with you. Trust me on this. If she does not want a hook-up she will make herself quite clear.

    Also, Howard, raises a good point. Do not put so much importance on one women until she makes herself worthy of it. Same thing for women in regards for men.

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