Where Are All The Rich Well-Educated Men?

Name: Gina
Age: 33
Website:
Question: I’m new to the dating world as I settled down with my high school bf, married and had children early. I’m newly divorced with very little dating experience. Where can I meet men who are professional, educated, and financially stable? I have tried before and seem to attract very sweet, attractive men who don’t know how to take care of themselves….not to mention…managing a woman OR men whose conversation is nothing but sexual. How and where can I attract the men I would like to date?
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<i>Where can I meet men who are professional, educated, and financially stable?</i>

They’re dating the women who didn’t get married after high school. Those men are busy dating the women who went to college and probably got their MBAs and who support themselves with their salary and not alimony.

I have tried before and seem to attract very sweet, attractive men who don’t know how to take care of themselves.

What exactly do you bring to the table here? You’re 33, already divorced and have kids. Did you learn any notable trades or skills during your marriage? Did you go to school and get an education?How do you take care of yourself?

I realize that marriage, at whatever age, is a choice for women now. It’s not something we have to do. I’m sure you didn’t get married thinking it would end in divorce. However, this right here is why people shouldn’t get married so young. Especially women. Now you’re 33 and divorced with children. Forget dating for a second. What’s your plan for the rest of your life? Do you think you’re just going to magically meet a guy who is eager to become a step-dad to your kids and who will support you?

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but you’re not exactly a catch to these men. That’s why you need to focus first on building a life for yourself where you are not dependent on a man. Starting with getting some kind of an education. I don’t care if it’s learning home improvement skills, becoming a beautician, or going for an MBA. You need to develop your own identity that doesn’t involve being a wife or mother. You need to learn how to support yourself so you can build a life for you and your family should things not work out as planned. Especially if you have daughters. The worst thing you can do for your daughters is delude them in to believing that as long as they’re pretty that they’ll be set for life. Nothing is more tragic than seeing those women who were told their whole lives that they were attractive and watching them implode as they slowly realize that being pretty isn’t enough and that they actually were supposed to develop more skills in order to achieve certain goals.  I was doing a profile session with a woman last week and all she kept saying was how she didn’t understand why she wasn’t getting more responses.

“I don’t get it. I’m an attractive woman.”

I’m so sorry to burst that particular bubble but nowadays being pretty just isn’t enough. It’s not enough to get a man, it’s not enough to get a job and it certainly isn’t enough to be happy.

How and where can I attract the men I would like to date?

First you start by becoming the very type of person you wish to attract. You can’t just blindly go out there and seek some financially stable and well-educated guy.  (Maybe you do have an education. I don’t know. I’m making assumptions here. ) Those guys are going to look at you and deem you a liability. 33 and divorced is a lot different than 43 and divorced. Getting married right after high school is immediately going to make you look simple and small town/small minded. Those guys that you meet? If they’re decent, well adjusted guys they’re not going to want that. They’re going to want an equal of sorts. Or they’re going to want someone who can give them their own biological children. Those guys aren’t going to want to raise another man’s kids or pay their way. They work too hard to spend their money on another man’s children. Then there’s the fact that you possibly are supported by alimony and not a career. Most men don’t have much respect for that.

As for the sex talk, you have to understand…most men will hear your situation and immediately consider you casual relationship material at best. You’re getting that kind of talk because they’re not taking you seriously. They’re don’t care if you’re offended. They’re just trying to see how long it’s going to take to get you in to the sack and whether or not it will be worth how ever much time, money or effort they expend.

I don’t know. It sounds to me like you’re just looking for someone to support you. Men can sniff that out a mile away. Between that and the stench of divorce and having kids, methinks you’re going to have a tough time of it. I think you should focus on getting yourself up to speed so you can offer more to these men before you start seeking them out.

 

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123 Responses to “Where Are All The Rich Well-Educated Men?”

  1. L. Says:

    I don’t agree – she might be a catch – you don’t know that at this point. There are plenty of us who would love to meet a woman like that and perhaps even become a good step-dad.

    I will tell her that if she tries too hard, she won’t meet the right guy. Just let it happen. If you “look”, you won’t find it. And lastly, if you have knee-wobbling expectations … and watch too much Sex in the City or the Bachelor, you’re setting your expectations too high. People have imperfections. Some guys take care of themselves, some don’t. And the older you get, the more you will find who aren’t in perfect shape. Happens to all of us. Meeting a quality, well-educated, loving man takes patience and the ability to be willing to look beyond what you looked at when you were 21.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 28 Thumb down 36

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      There are plenty of us who would love to meet a woman like that and perhaps even become a good step-dad.

      Sure. Trouble is she doesn’t want a guy like that.

      Just let it happen. If you “look”, you won’t find it.

      That’s sweet. Naive and misguided, but sweet. All those cute little saying Mommy told you? They’re why you’re in the position you’re in right now.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 41 Thumb down 19

      • Howard Says:

        This is the very best of Moxie that women will choose to challenge, because it is uncomfortable truth. My kudos to Moxie! However seeming the double standard, it’s the type of wake up call that we all need. With men the situation is even worse, and the double standard is that they get away with it even moreso than women. If a man says “where can I meet beautiful women” no one goes at him, but in the end, it’s just as shallow. I am not mentioning this to invalidate Moxie’s advice but rather to add my two cents worth to men cleaning up their act too.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 31 Thumb down 2

      • L. Says:

        Again, Moxie … you continue to do your readers a disservice. But have it your way.

        She doesn’t want a man like that? OK, well, I don’t want a woman unless she’s 20 years younger than me, has a perfect figure with big breasts, lives on the UWS, and is perfect in bed. I’d love to see your response. Because if it follows your typical pattern, you’ll chastise me for being overly picky but not women. I don’t think you do a very good job of providing impartial and helpful advise and counsel. Again, you need a dating coach or psychologist to provide commentary on these things.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 24

        • uesider Says:

          Apparently you didn’t read Moxie’s reply too carefully. She’s EXACTLY chastising her for being too picky.

          Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 0

        • Howard Says:

          L, do you know what a tuo qouque argument is? Tu quoque is latin for “you too.” It is an invalid argument, ofen used by people to excuse improper behavior. The strategy is to try to highlight bad behavior somewhere else where is often goes unoticed. All this really does is state that the bad behavior there is also unacceptable. It does not excuse the original bad behavior in question.

          In the end, all tu quoque arguments do, is to lend greater strength to the original criticism. And if the best you can find as a rebuttal, is one of the standard non-valid arguments, well-known for centuries, such as ad hominen attacks, or red herrings, or tu quoque, or begging the question etc, you immediately signal your own defeat.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 5

  2. Brad Says:

    I went out on a date with a really pretty divorcee once. I was impressed – she owned her own apartment, her own business, a house out in Southampton.

    As the night and the conversation went on, the slow reveal came – she was an assistant at the business and married the boss. She moved into her husband’s Greenwich Village apartment. They enjoyed afew summers at the beach house he already owned. The divorce settlement was that he gave up everything he owned in order to keep her out of his future earnings. And no, he didn’t cheat on her, she just decided she ‘had made a mistake’.

    I backpedaled so fast I tripped over myself. I don’t even think I tried to kiss her goodnight.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 81 Thumb down 1

  3. rick Says:

    one thing is “rich” and financially stable are not at all the same thing. and “rich” guys don’t care if a woman has a career or not….honestly women that are single and childless at 40 and beyond are far more likely to be well educated than not.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 27 Thumb down 2

  4. MagicSam Says:

    Wow! What a brutally honest response to the question. You have demonstrated an uncanny ability to read right into the psyche of the adult male. I was thinking exactly the same thing as I read the question … this gal is simply looking for a ticket on the gravy train and is bringing nothing to the table. I see this “entitlement mentality” constantly with women that are seeking financially secure (code for wealthy or successful) men. As one of those men I can assure you, we play it for all it is worth and then get the hell out of there!

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 41 Thumb down 8

    • dina Says:

      There are also men out there who try to better their situation by getting involved with a woman who has more — whether she comes from a better family, has a better education, has more financial stability, is more emotionally stable, etc. If they can improve their lifestyle by enjoying the “total package” that this woman brings to the table, they hold on and don’t let go. Girls don’t want guys like that — unless that’s a woman’s only bargaining chip.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 15

  5. Allan Says:

    I’m not sure if many of the singles here are self aware enough to realize that the bar is set pretty high. Personally I am fully away that I am probably unreasonable in my expectations, and so I will not look to blame another for not being the person I hoped to meet. How could I? It’s not as though my date reneged on some promise to read my mind and transform into my ideal partner.

    Life is hard, and each person does the best they can. Most attractive women want to meet men who will provide for them in a manner that they believe proper, even mandatory. Ironic perhaps that I am most willing to put in those long hours to be a “successful” guy when I am in a relationship, but then where is my free time? I would be too busy with my career. So it’s almost a no-win situation. Ay my age (almost 48) I just want to get out there and enjoy myself, as it’s no use looking to meet a woman who wants to raise a family or drop everything (as I would) to settle together in a new home that represents a future we both hope to build together.

    I will also note that there is a human tendency to apply prior experiences with members of the opposite sex to each and every new person we meet. It takes a sincere effort to look at every new person you meet with fresh eyes. To look past some of the silly gaffes or imperfections and make that commute across town to go out and really learn if this newfound person has potential. Dating websites suggest that we can determine who is a match without that level of work. True enough we might be able to spot the obvious mismatches, but there is no substitute for meeting in person. So instead both parties fill in the blanks with wishful thinking. These unrealistic expectations just increase the likelihood that a face to face conversation could result in a severe emotional bruising. People need to relax and just be friendly, communicative and honest. The worst case scenario should be shared stories and a drink.

    I’m not without my flaws, but it seems that simple courtesy should be taught to many of singles (both men and women). Only if we are each secure in the knowledge that the person across the table will not be subject to some misplaced annoyance at missing another opportunity to meet that dream mate, can we relax and be ourselves.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 0

    • Jesse Says:

      Yes! Life is hard, and somehow most of us pick ourselves up and try to do the best that we can. In our hard, Darwinistic culture we all too often lose sight that we are spirits first, not simple commodities on the SMP, not all conniving to get over or take advantage. Thank you for sharing your beautiful words.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  6. Kristen Says:

    I think we’re jumping to conclusions here – she said she settled down with her HS BF, not that she got married right after HS. I think this was mentioned more to indicate the lack of dating experience the OP has, having married her HS BF, presumably she hasn’t dated much at all.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 2

    • The D-man Says:

      Good point. A friend of mine did the same thing, but she waited 16 years before getting divorced. Nonetheless she has a fantastic career, makes very good money, travels the world etc. She’s also in great shape, takes good care of herself and lives in Silicon Valley surrounded by men. Even with that she still has trouble getting dates.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

    • sj Says:

      THANK YOU for being the first to point this very important point out. “Settled down with HS boyfriend” does NOT mean “got no education”, “didn’t go to college”, “didn’t plan life”, “simpleton”, or “financial basket case”. It means exactly what it says…and no more until stated otherwise.

      Moxie, I understand your general reasoning behind your “don’t marry young” advice. That said, I think you need to leave more room for circumstances under which it can and does succeed, and not just blanketly reject it. I know it isn’t common, but not all people approach life with the same set of needs or maturity at a young age. I won’t hijack the thread any farther.

      To the OP…my suggestion to you is to look in places where you will find men interested in what you have to offer. You need to be brutally honest with yourself about what exactly you do offer, what you need, what you want, and what your priorities are. Your kids need to be at the top of the list. THAT’S OK. Just recognize the limits that your circumstances place on you and your options today. Then craft a plan to (1) work within those limits today to take care of your needs, and (2) expand those options when your life allows it tomorrow.

      With your relatively scarce dating experience (and presumably it was all high school and/or college type dating), I suggest moving very slowly into the current adult dating environment. I am shocked at how things have changed, and not IMO in a good way.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 0

  7. joe-f Says:

    I don’t think she is looking for a sugar daddy despite the Moxie’s title-financially stable doesn’t mean rich. However, I do think she is only targeting attractive men and the ones attracted to her are either financially unstable, who is only interested in sex with her or both. Look Gina-you have a hard decision to make:how important is physical attraction to you? Even poor good looking guys have a lot of options including childless women who make a lot of money. The financially stable and good looking guys who are interested in a relationship can date over 90% of women and they have a whole bench of women waiting in line if they are not in a relationship.

    I agree with Moxie that you should spend time doing other things to improve your life rather than just looking for a way back to the married life you had. You have to be happy being single. I don’t agree with her that you have to be an equal. Guys are looking for different things. I don’t need the same level of education nor ambition in my wife. In fact, that is a minus because who is going to sacrifice and take care of the kids. I can work with a mom, even one who have kids but I am not very attractive.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 0

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      I don’t think she is looking for a sugar daddy despite the Moxie’s title-financially stable doesn’t mean rich.
      Perhaps the OP didn’t mean it that way, but that is how many/most men will interpret it, so if that’s not what she meant, she needs to understand that and adjust her wording appropriately.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  8. LaLa Says:

    I don’t think by saying she wants a financially stable guy it means she’s looking for someone rich. Sure, it could easily be interpreted that way, but I think she is looking for a guy who is established in his career and has his life together. Just because she doesn’t have an education past high school doesn’t mean a guy is going to pass on her because of that. Sure, some guys want the degree. But most guys are going to look at her and see if she is hot, feminine, sweet, a good mother, no baggage from the ex, and fun. Kids might be a problem for some guys, but not necessarily for others. As far as meeting them? I think another single dad would be ideal for her. Or another divorced guy. I don’t think most single guys that age are going to go for a single mom with kids and an ex-husband. I would start joining activities you like (if you have the time) and meet men that way. Or even out and about at the park or store. I think it really matters what state you’re in as well. When I moved to Texas, there was an abundance of people who got married out of high school, had a couple kids, and are not divorced in their early 30s. So it’s more “normal”.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 3

    • LaLa Says:

      I meant now divorced :)

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2

    • ReganP Says:

      Ha! I’m from Texas and this is the definitely the case. My mom married my step-dad 7 years ago and she’d been divorced once (my real dad) and he’d been divorced 3 times! They met through a mutual acquaintance and are now literally the happiest couple I have ever met.

      I think it helps when you are both divorced and it doubly helps when you both have children from divorce, although I suppose this is less desirable.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

    • Ana Says:

      I agree there is nothing wrong with wanting a man who is financially stable. I want the same and I am a single mom with a lot to offer. I just want to meet a guy I can have intelligent conversations with and who is open-minded. What I don’t want is a couch potato who watches t.v. all day. Men and women regardless of their station in life want different things. Just because a woman may not be educated or well off means she dumb or a gold-digger. I think looking at other single parents or divorcees is a good idea. It just takes initiative to find the right person who has all the qualities you want. Thanks Craig for the good advice. I love educated, financially stable men they are far more interesting and sociable and have varied interests.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 4 Thumb down 6

  9. Craig Says:

    Where can I meet men who are professional, educated, and financially stable?

    You’ll mostly find us in large cities where the hospitals, law firms, large corporations, and investment banks we work at are located. At the OP’s age and beyond we socially tend to hang out at happy hours and soical mixers after work more so than on weekend nights when we start avoiding crowded bars and clubs. Wine tastings, black tie charity events, parks and online dating sites are a great place to meet her preferred demographic. Having married her high school boyfriend at a young age, I’m betting she’s living on Wisteria Lane in the marital suburban house in a small town somewhere. If the OP is in the ‘burb’s she’s going to find slim pickins. That’s not where single affluent professional dudes on the prowl live for the most part.

    How and where can I attract the men I would like to date?

    The question the OP should really be asking is what does she bring to the table that the men she seeks would desire? She may very well be hot, but she has another man’s kids – which can be a looks neutralizing element. There are plenty of women just as hot as her without them,who enjoy the advantage of spontaneity and easy availablility. Guess who wins that comparison. The men the OP seeks have the pick of the litter. So why should they choose her over a never married, childless equally attractive woman who’s educated and financially secure herself? Feel free to aim high, but If I were the OP I’d be taking a second look at those “very sweet, attractive men who don’t know how to take care of themselves”. What you to attract tends to be what you can get. Welcome to your new reality.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 43 Thumb down 0

    • DowntownAngel Says:

      I would strike out wine tasting and charity events. First, for the reason that they do not attract too many straight men. Second, for the reason that almost everybody is a couple. But walk into a local sports club during the play offs and there they are…

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 4

      • Craig Says:

        I don’t know where you live, but here in NYC that is certainly not the case. I’ve been going to wine tastings for years, and I have never been the only straight guy there (even if I was, one is all you need). There’s no way to even tell who’s gay and who’s straight just by sight most of the time these days, so your gaydar may be overly sensitive. Additionally, black tie charity events always have many eligible straight singles along with couples. If you don’t want to do a formal event, there are always casual after work charity events here. $100-$150 per person gets you into the event for a good cause – and the cost tends to keep the riff-raff out. Again always chock full of attractive, affluent singles. What better ice-breaker is there than having a common interest in a good cause?

        In a sports pub during the playoffs, we are there to watch the game. Good luck geting our attention then.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 2

        • Pete the Greek Says:

          $100-$150 charity events will keep the riff-raff out as well as myself (LOL).

          I know it’s for charity and that is good but still I consider this a very pricey way to meet people.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            It’s not “pricey” at all; that’s the cost of one date. And you should be doing it to support the charity anyway, as you would any other activity you enjoy; potentially meeting other singles is a side benefit.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2

            • uesider Says:

              Wow, my dates rarely cost more than $75. And I live in NYC. Had some very good ones that cost <$5.

              Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

            • M Says:

              $150 for one date is a lot; its downright expensive if not exorbitant outside of high cost of living areas. Even if I was willing to pay, I think that few people my age would be willing to pay AND would actually attend such an event.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

              • Crotch Rocket Says:

                I think that few people my age would be willing to pay [$150 to charity] AND would actually attend such an event.
                That’s part of the point: it screens out the riff-raff, leaving only people who have enough disposable income to give that much away and who (want to be seen to) care about others. That’s a pretty attractive demographic, but it’ll get old quickly if you’re only doing it to meet such people–and they’ll probably sense that’s why you’re there and dismiss you anyway, so stick to causes you actually do care about whether or not you meet someone special.

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

        • DowntownAngel Says:

          Like yourself I live in NYC. I am into wines and go to a lot of wine tasting events/classes, etc., for wines, not to meet men. The only guys I see there are either gay (sorry my gaydar is just fine, don’t know about yours) or guys who are there with their girlfriends. A straight, single guy who is there alone is such a rare occurence that I would deem it statistically insgnificant. And no, one is not “all you need” – you need a scene that is PACKED with eligible men and has a clear shortage of eligible women. That increases your chances (speaking from a woman’s standpoint), if the balance is the other way around it decreases the odds. Not to mention low ROI on time and money. Would you rather spend $50 to meet MAY BE one man, or $50 to meet 50? Yeah. Sporting events are great for that – i can’t tell you how many times guys tried to pick me up at the MSG.

          Charity events … ok, lets talk charity events. There’s 2 types of those: “high society” circle where you would need to contribue thousands to get in and mingle with local power players. And than there’s junior “drink for charity” events that cost $150. To successfully navigate the former, you need to really, really belong there and I don’t think the OP does. Just a wild guess. The latter attract the same crowd as local bars, parks, gyms, etc. Why pay when you can meet those men in the prepared food section in your supermarket?

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2

          • Craig Says:

            This is where we differ. You seem to think attending most social events should have the pupose of meeting someone. I attend them to have fun, indulge an interest, or support a good cause. If I happen to meet someone, that’s icing on the cake – but the event wasn’t deemed a failure if I didn’t. What I spend for the event was always irrelevant because my main purpose was always the activity itself – not the number of singles that might be there. When one reduces every social activity they participate in to an analysis of the return of investment where meeting a mate is concerned, failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

            One is indeed all you need. Meeting someone does not require a scene PACKED with eligible men. All it takes is a chance encounter in a supermarket produce aisle with someone who could use some advice picking out the best fruits and veggies. I dare say your odds are better in the latter scenario. The key is to live your life and put yourself out there while enjoying the things you like to do. Sooner or later you meet you match by random chance. The reason people often fail is because they try too hard. Ever notice how you’ve met all your friends in random situations when you weren’t even looking to make friends? Keep going to the wine tastings you enjoy. I promise you that not only gay men enjoy wine.

            And than there’s junior “drink for charity” events that cost $150… (they) attract the same crowd as local bars, parks, gyms, etc. Why pay when you can meet those men in the prepared food section in your supermarket?

            Those are the kinds of charity events I was mostly referring to, not the $10k a plate ones for high society types. You pay because you’re helping out those less fortunate than you. As a bonus it weeds out the men who aren’t the “professional, educated, and financially stable” type the OP says she’s looking for and to whom my advice was aimed at. It’s not the same crowd you’ll find at your local pub or meathead gym.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

    • M Says:

      If the OP is in the ‘burb’s she’s going to find slim pickins. That’s not where single affluent professional dudes on the prowl live for the most part.

      Not necessarily. I live near and work in a major city, but not NY. I live in the suburbs. Of all my coworkers my age, they all live in the suburbs except one, and she is probably within walking distance of the city/county line. Same was true when I worked in DC and lived in Arlington, VA.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  10. Rebecca Says:

    I was once 33, divorced with kids, and had a master’s degree and a professional job, and didn’t receive child support or alimony, as we split the custody evenly.

    I think there were a lot of conclusions drawn that may or may not be true in this case.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 40 Thumb down 1

  11. Nicole Says:

    This article is full of assumptions. Having children early to her could be 30…maybe she didn’t want them at 25. To some people 25 is late. It’s about perspective. Also, she could have a post high school education, people can and do have children while going to college or something else. She never said when she did all of this right out of school. She’s just pointing out that her high school BF was probably her only dating experience, so she can’t read what men want easily. She’s not a pro or a ho, so let’s get that straight too.

    When people get married, they don’t go into it saying, “Well, this won’t last, but what the hell.” I felt like the writer of this article was berating this woman for settling down early. Higher education doesn’t work for everyone and not everyone is suited for college. So, cut that out. And there are men who will happily date or even marry a woman with a high school education and or previously married w/ kids. Not all men look at a divorced woman and think broken or damaged goods. My friend’s grandfather married her g-ma when she already had SEVEN kids and they are STILL together to this day. Getting married later doesn’t make you more mature or smarter than someone who did it younger. And some men are looking for a woman that won’t mind staying at home because some men don’t want a career woman because he wants his kids to have a mom. You do what works for you.

    Financially stable could mean someone w/o a crapload of debt and responsible with their money. I have dated both sides of the coin and believe me financially stable men are much better to deal with than a guy who can’t pay for a 15-dollar dinner out because he can’t keep a budget.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Let’s see. She’s 33 now and dating. So let’s say she got divorced at 32. Which means the whole process started at 30. She has more than one child, so that brings us to 28 at the latest that she could have started having a family.

      Do you believe she started having kids at 27 or 28 and then was talking divorce by 30? That’s a pretty quick turn around, no?

      Yes, there are a number of assumptions here. Most of which were based on practical or critical thinking. Not long shots.

      Higher education doesn’t work for everyone and not everyone is suited for college. So, cut that out.

      Cut what out? Expecting women to bring to the table the very thing they look for in a partner? She doesn’t have to go to college. But if she’s going to insist her partner be well educated and financially stable, she should understand that men will expect the same of her. That’s how it works.Now, if she’s just looking for a decent, kind guy to whom she’s attracted, then she doesn’t need the degree or the job. But if she refuses to give those guys a shot because she wants the pedigree, she better go get one herself first. So sorry to put it o you like that.

      My friend’s grandfather married her g-ma when she already had SEVEN kids and they are STILL together to this day.

      Yes, by all means, let’s compare a couple that married 50+ years ago to now. Makes total sense.

      And some men are looking for a woman that won’t mind staying at home because some men don’t want a career woman because he wants his kids to have a mom. You do what works for you.

      Agreed. But those men want kids of their own. Not some other man’s children. He’s happy to work long hours and support a family he created. Not one some other guy made.

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      • Allan Says:

        I don’t see the presence of children from a prior relationship as a deal breaker. Guys may want their own children, but that doesn’t mean they free from the children from a prior relationship. More likely the woman is more interested in getting back some of that lost leisure that she missed raising the kids, so she may be the person who is no longer interested in children.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 8

        • nathan Says:

          Some men don’t want children, period. Some men don’t want their own children, but would have no problem being a step father. Others only want their own children. Still others are open to any of the above. When I was in my 20s, I excluded women with children as options. After 30, though, it started to become clear that making that exclusion was mostly just a bias I had. It was more about what I thought it would be like to date a single parent, than what it actually is like. Over the past 5 years, I have had two relationships with women who had children. Both got married and had kids at a young age. And both were well educated and brought plenty to the table so speak. I loved being with those kids. Neither of those relationships ended because of the children. I’d do it again tomorrow, if I found the right woman.

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        • chuckrock Says:

          a woman with children from a previous relationship would be a deal breaker for me. So even if it is a 50% of guys will conside it a deal breaker…she has definitely eliminated some of the pool.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      people can and do have children while going to college or something else.
      Many women who have children early also go back to college and/or start working once the kids are in school, and many others leave work and go to college while they’re pregnant or have small children because a few hours here or there for class is compatible with their schedules, doctor visits, child care needs, etc.

      When people get married, they don’t go into it saying, “Well, this won’t last, but what the hell.”
      Actually, yeah, some of them do–especially ones that get married young. I went to a lot of weddings in my late teens and early twenties, and many of the couples referred to it as their “starter marriage”. I had one coworker who even introduced his then-fiancée as his “future ex-wife”. Divorce is now the norm, and society’s expectations of marriage have changed.

      there are men who will happily date or even marry a woman with a high school education and or previously married w/ kids. Not all men look at a divorced woman and think broken or damaged goods.
      Guys aren’t as picky as women about their partner’s educational level, true, but that’s primarily because we consider other factors (looks, personality, domestic skills, etc.) to be more important. Everything else being equal, though, we’ll prefer a woman with a similar educational background. Ditto for divorce; again, it has become the norm, so there’s not much of a stigma these days.

      Another guy’s kids are an entirely different story, however. Like it or not, they are a handicap, and for good reason: they require a lot of time that makes her unavailable for dates. If she is interested in having more, that might be mitigated to an extent by evidence of her doing a good job with the ones she already has, but they still take up a lot of time and make it difficult to date her.

      some men are looking for a woman that won’t mind staying at home because some men don’t want a career woman because he wants his kids to have a mom. You do what works for you.
      Indeed, and I am one such man. Raising kids well is a full-time job, at least until they’re in school, and I will have no trouble supporting Mrs. Rocket while she does so. I see nothing wrong with that scenario–but there is a lot of prejudice from women who were sold a bill of goods by feminists, i.e. that a woman can have both–and do a good job at both–at the same time.

      Financially stable could mean …
      There’s a lot of different things it could mean, and which people hear will depend on their own biases–and what else is said.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

  12. Eliza Says:

    Wow. So many assumptions. In today’s economy, and with how the unemployment rates are across the board…just because you have a “college degree” doesn’t mean you are able to secure a reasonably well-paying career, or even secure a part-time position, while you pursue further education where you can specialize (get your master’s degree). With children in the picture, I am sure this person has limited time on her hands to be a full-time student too. I have been there, went for my undergraduate studies, while working full-time during the evening and studying “FULL TIME) during the day. Having no children, and a degree doesn’t necessarily guarantee that you will meet financially stable, and emotionally healthy men. Unfortunately, regardless of how intelligent a woman may be (for some men) if a woman is not a doctor, an attorney, or some business owner, they lose interest. They DO want their “occupational equal”. That’s reality today. At least, that has been my observation.
    What if a woman HAS pursued her education, is very independent, financially responsible, yet she is a secretary? I guarantee you most men would judge, and not be open-minded to overlook that “title”–or rather lack of (title) and corner office. I do agree that in order to want certain characteristics in someone, you must possess those same characteristics yourself. However, it’s such a shame that people are so hung up on titles, and many of us define ourselves by “what we do”, “where we work”.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 5

    • Allan Says:

      That is a personal peeve of mine as well – defining people by what they do. It has some validity, but I am uncomfortable with putting that question out first and foremost. To address the concerns of the original poster; if we want to criticize her for what seems like a superficial view, we should also realize that there is not much she can do to change her opinions. The most someone can do is go out with people who are not the correct “type” and see if there is some spark anyhow. Not many people take that view though.

      As I hinted in my earlier post, most people use these dating sites to rule out all candidates except a few who seem to meet an almost impossibly strict set conditions. In fact I suspect that this is true for myself, and yet I do go out with women who are not exactly what I am looking for. Somehow the fact hat I am meeting to find out *if* I am attracted to someone is construed as meeting because I *am* romantically attracted to someone. If this is not the case, then am met with indignation. I am considered a time waster if I am not immediately falling for someone whom I had never even met a half hour earlier.

      We can’t control how we feel, but we can control our expectations, and we can decide to protect the civility of a first in person hello.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

      • Jamie Says:

        For me, financially stable means: is not going to hit me up for a loan. Not a big consideration. Professional: I don’t much care what kind of job he has, as long as he has one. Someone who is hustling with 2 or 3 part-time or temp jobs and can squeeze in a date sometimes? I respect that. Someone who lives in his dad’s place or his sister’s place and hasn’t worked in over 2 years because he hasn’t found something that pays enough to make it worth going to work? I don’t respect that. (Even someone who has enough money put aside to not work will have a different philosophy of how to go about his day than someone who has to get up for work. I have friends who don’t work, but I don’t see myself getting along in a partner-type relationship with someone who doesn’t.) Educated is the easiest to find out: 90% of the men who email me on match cannot string two sentences together without grammatical errors. I can understand spelling errors, especially if they are infrequent or if the man seems more inclined toward math than reading, but repeated subject-verb disagreement is a big no-no.

        I do like what Moxie says about making yourself the person you’re trying to attract — it’s certainly a different approach that seems worth trying — but I don’t think the OP’s criteria of professional and educated are off the wall. It’s just the financial stability that might put people’s backs up. I don’t believe that the other person’s finances are any of my business (and vice versa) unless we’re about to open a joint account or purchase some property together.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          For me, financially stable means: is not going to hit me up for a loan. Not a big consideration.
          I would expand that to living within their means, whatever those means may be. I don’t care whether you’re a lawyer or a waitress as long as you pay your bills on time.

          Someone who is hustling with 2 or 3 part-time or temp jobs and can squeeze in a date sometimes? I respect that.
          I respect that too, but if they can only “squeeze in a date sometimes”, their life is already too full without me in it, and building a real relationship requires spending a lot of time together–consistently. One date every two weeks (which is all many women I’ve dated could “squeeze in”) just doesn’t work; such people would be better off working a little more, saving up and returning to the dating pool when money isn’t so tight.

          Educated is the easiest to find out: 90% of the men who email me on match cannot string two sentences together without grammatical errors.
          I’ll admit I’m a bit of a snob about this, but if someone doesn’t care enough about what they’re saying to express it well, why should I care either? Occasional errors are understandable, but at least make it look like you put some effort into your writing. Use capitalization and punctuation where appropriate, don’t use text-speak, etc.

          I do like what Moxie says about making yourself the person you’re trying to attract
          I disagree to an extent; most men are not looking for a female version of themselves but rather someone who complements them. IMHO, women would be happier in the end if they did the same.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      [Men] DO want their “occupational equal”. That’s reality today. At least, that has been my observation.
      Some men do, some men don’t care or even actively seek women with lower-paying occupations. We’re not as strict (or as consistent) as women are about this because it’s less important than physical appearance, personality, domestic skills, etc.

      What if a woman HAS pursued her education, is very independent, financially responsible, yet she is a secretary? I guarantee you most men would judge, and not be open-minded to overlook that “title”–or rather lack of (title) and corner office.
      “Executive Assistants” seem to have no trouble finding men to marry them–provided they have the other things men are looking for. In fact, they seem to do better than many woman with more impressive titles because those often come at the cost of those other things. Ditto for teachers, nurses and other “pink-collar” professionals.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

  13. The Private Man Says:

    “But if she’s going to insist her partner be well educated and financially stable, she should understand that men will expect the same of her. That’s how it works.Now, if she’s just looking for a decent, kind guy to whom she’s attracted, then she doesn’t need the degree or the job. But if she refuses to give those guys a shot because she wants the pedigree, she better go get one herself first.”

    Careful Moxie, you’re projecting somewhat. The feminine attracts the masculine and men don’t require their women to be equal in terms of education and income. What a man finds attractive in a woman is very different than what a woman finds attractive in a man.

    With this in mind, the woman in question should be working on her femininity as well as being emotionally and financially self-reliant.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 15 Thumb down 9

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Careful Moxie, you’re projecting somewhat. The feminine attracts the masculine and men don’t require their women to be equal in terms of education and income

      I don’t care how feminine she is (and can you please find at least one new mantra, as you’ve exhausted that one)…very few well educated, financially stable men are going to take on her and her brood unless she makes it clear that she’s supporting them and herself on her own. Like Craig said, few men have to date a divorced woman of 33 with kids because they can easily find someone the same age or older/younger without the baggage.

      And please don’t pull that Manosphere Mindtrick bullshit with me. Hope that was feminine enough for you. I thought it more dainty than telling you to bite me.

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      • The Private Man Says:

        It’s a mantra because it’s fundamentally true and can never be exhausted. Shit, there are dating coaches who make a fine living preaching that mantra. (EMK to the courtesy phone, please).

        I did mention her financial self-reliance how it should be important. What she brings to the table IS her femininity, not a degree, not a career, not a raft of accomplishments that would be more appropriate for a man.

        There is no mindtrick here. It’s just that too many women assume that men are attracted to characteristics that the women find attractive in men.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 19 Thumb down 12

        • nathan Says:

          The use of masculinity and femininity as frameworks for dating advice is tired and cliche. People toss those words around endlessly, acting like we all have the same understanding of what they mean. However, if you get 100 people to define them, you’ll get 100 different answers.

          At the end of the day, what’s attractive to one person isn’t for another. And it’s a lot more than some simplistic set of traits posited as masculine or feminine. Gina brings everything she is and has done to the table, not just what you think she does. The same goes for all of us.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 15

          • The Private Man Says:

            “The use of masculinity and femininity as frameworks for dating advice is tired and cliche.”

            But is it wrong?

            Just because the PC police doesn’t like the framework doesn’t mean that it’s not true.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 15 Thumb down 8

            • nathan Says:

              Your answer is about as meaningless as those two phrases are.

              Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 16

              • The Private Man Says:

                Why is my answer meaningless? You claimed that the use of masculine of feminine in a dating framework is tired and cliched. I countered by asking “is that framework wrong?” I say no and will happily back it up. Shit, I’ve got dozens and dozens of posts on my own blog about this.

                If you say that this dating framework is wrong, back it up.

                Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 7

          • dimplz Says:

            I get what you’re saying Nathan, but the reality is that it does matter. Just like we say people shouldn’t be judged by their looks, but they are. So why try to pretend that we shouldn’t judge somebody based on something we clearly do.

            As Nigel says about the fashion industry in “The Devil Wears Prada,” “I mean, that is what this multi-million dollar industry is all about, really. Inner beauty.” If we didn’t care about looks, we wouldn’t adhere to any kind of standard – but we do. I applaud you if you’d date a woman who wears clothes that aren’t form-fitting and doesn’t smell good, but most men don’t bother and want women to dress in form-fitting clothes and smell like flowers all the time. They like women to be soft. It is what it is, and no matter how ridiculous it seems, it is the standard we adhere to, and if many of us didn’t, the fashion, diet and beauty industry would be dead, but since it’s thriving, I’m going to venture to say that many of us care, and care a lot.

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  14. Michael Says:

    professional, educated, and financially stable are unspoken prerequisites, not “qualities” one seeks in a mate. And when she says “professional,” isn’t that not just a judgmental euphemism for non-laborer? I am an attorney and my friend is a plumber, and as I always say he is more valuable than me because he can fix a toilet. As for the “educated” and “financially stable” prongs, no one wants to date a dumb, broke person, but again is this really a problem, as there are plenty of smart and financially stable men out there. No, this chick wants a meal ticket, as the “attributes” she seeks are not attributes at all but merely a minimum standard to consider someone for a date.

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    • Allan Says:

      I agree. Men and women catch on, even if subconsciously, if they are valued by their partner for what they bring to the table. The end result is that you have two people using each other up like commodities. The first one who ruins out of money, or whose looks fail, is cast aside. So you have two people ostensibly “together” who could not be more completely alone.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  15. Gina Says:

    Wow…well thank you for all the feedback. Some of you seem to think that I am an educated woman with no goals of my own. Well, hate to burst that bubble, but I dated my high school bf, left and went away to college, graduated with my B.A, got married and had children. I am my own woman. A good life all in all. People change so I divorced. I am not looking for a “gravy train” as mentioned in one of the responses. If I am was, I would have stayed right where I was in the comfort of a hardworking husband. He just lacked in other areas. To be honest, a financially stable man could be the manager of the Target as long as he is stable and can manage his household. I want to be rich in ways money can’t buy. Keep the advice coming as I enjoy reading your perspectives. And to be clear….baggage is luggage not children.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      I apologize for assuming you hadn’t gone to college. I acknowledged that that was a presumption on my part. I was wrong.

      However, I’m not really buying the “I’d date a manager of Target” claim. Maybe I’m being elitist, but a manager at Target isn’t typically “well educated.”

      Have you worked since getting your degree? If so, doing what? The reason why i say that you need to be sure you bring more to the table than looks or femininity is because you do have what most people consider baggage. An Ex and multiple kids. If you want a guy who is well educated and financially secure, you need to have as much as possible going on to compensate for the kids.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 9

      • Gina Says:

        Out of all respect, I’m not selling anything so you don;t have to buy. In an effort to not disclose my complete identity, I will simply say that I have worked since I obtained my degree. I am pretty successful at what I do in a metro area. I don’t feel like I need to compensate for having a life before now. I guess my main challenge is making myself available to socialize, where to do it and to know what I’m doing when I’m doing it. :-)

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        • uesider Says:

          “I don’t feel like I need to compensate for having a life before now.”

          I understand what you’re saying but the men you are seeking have choices too. They can date younger women, without kids, who have more education and career success than you. Doesn’t make you a loser, or any less of a “catch” but you really may have to adjust what you can expect.

          Try to look at it dispassionately- most men want someone who is available to meet frequently (kids mean you aren’t), go away on weekends, or do something on the spur of the moment (see above). Most men want someone who is capable of putting him first when the relationship gets serious. Most men want someone who doesn’t have any ties to ex’s- you do by virtue of the kids.

          You may have more depth, beauty, and character than your competition- but your situation will disqualify you with most of the men you are trying to attract. It’s going to take a special man to overlook these issues- that man may not have better options.

          All Moxie is telling you is to be realistic- it might take you longer to find what you are looking for than a woman without kids and unmarried.

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          • Jayla Says:

            useider here is the problem with your comments – A man who wants a woman who can go away on weekend and put him first all the time and who doesn’t have ties to an ex are not really men, those are immature boys.
            The reality is many single men are divorced and have ex’s and have to pay child support and have crazy azz ex’s and baby mama’s and all sorts of drama. So for a man to disqualify a really good sane beautiful woman because she is divorced with children is crazy as hell.
            Regardless of who you get with you will have Issues, and Problems because none of us is perfect. So folks who are seeking “perfect” relationships and “perfect” people, and qualify them by material and tangible things need to get their head out of the clouds and those type of people will be forever single and/or forever unhappy chasing a very elusive dream that will never become reality.
            You could find a very successful person with an MBA or Docterate degree who makes loads of money, with no kids and no so called “baggage” and who on paper appears to be the perfect person. And you marry that person based on the fact that they appear to be everything you think you want and they end up using and abusing you and treating you like crap and being an azzhole simply because people treat them like they can do whatever they want and get a pass because they look good and they are well educated and have houses, cars and lots of material things and are popular etc etc etc.
            So this is why folks who have that as the top criteria for what they want in a lifetime mate end up divorced or having numerous dead end relationships and never ever finding Real True Love.
            Gina trust and believe there is a man who will love you and your children to death and love him as his own. The only thing that should disqualify you is if u meet a man that wants to have 2 or 3 more kids if you don’t want anymore children.
            Other than that there shouldn’t be any problems with u meeting the type of men you want. Granted they may be a different race, culture or ethnicity but when u find that person, hold on to them tight and don’t let anybody steel your joy.
            Good luck to you Gina and Keep the Faith and don’t give up hope….*smile*

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7

            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              many single men are divorced and have ex’s and have to pay child support and have crazy azz ex’s and baby mama’s and all sorts of drama. So for a man to disqualify a really good sane beautiful woman because she is divorced with children is crazy as hell.
              It’s only crazy as hell if he’s in the same boat. For a man who doesn’t have alimony, child support, crazy exes, baby mama drama, etc. why should he have to accept a woman who does have such baggage? Likewise, why should a woman without such baggage have to put up with a man who does?

              Relationships are hard enough; there’s no reason to deliberately make it harder if you don’t need to.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

      • uesider Says:

        Managerial jobs at Target generally require a 4-year degree. If that’s not your idea of “well-educated” then maybe you are being elitist.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      baggage is luggage not children.
      You may not see it that way, but most men will see another man’s children (and thus your permanent tie to that man) as baggage. That’s just how it is. The men most likely to accept that baggage are ones with similar baggage of their own, i.e. single dads, or men who want kids but are biologically incapable of having their own. If you only have one, maybe two, other men may be willing to accept your baggage if you’re interested in having more kids.

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      • Jamie Says:

        I was thinking that, too… maybe seek someone with children. I don’t have any non-adult non-independent children, and met one guy and briefly dated another guy, both from Match and with tweeners or teenagers. One of them actually put in his profile that it would be a plus for him if the woman had well-mannered daughters around the same age as his own well-mannered daughters. So… maybe seek the Brady Bunch effect?

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  16. Bilwick Says:

    I’m a former Manhattanite who, as a result of some bad advice and bad decisions, marooned myself in the South. Specifically, in a major sun-Belt metropolis sometimes (and from my experience, accurately) called “the Big Hustle.” I suspect that because of the heavy Jewish and Catholic influence in Manhattan (I’m a lapsed Catholic myself, well-educated in Catholic schools) there seemed to be more of a correlation between intelligence and education on one hand, at least at that time (the Seventies and early Eighties) and income level on the other. It was also possible to devote one’s time and major energies to cultural interests, rather than not devoting one’s life to the Corporation, and still afford a basically decent lifestyle, even in Manhattan.

    That changed when the Yuppie Era came in, which is around the time I relocated to the Big Hustle. Here, as one disgruntled and impoverished liberal-arts major of my acquaintance put it, “everyone’s a salesman.” The place reminds me of what Ayn Rand wrote about Hollywood: “The people who have money have no taste, and the people with taste have no money.” Like any generalization, not entirely true, of course; but true enough, from my experience. Coming from Manhattan it was a real culture-shock when I found myself in an area where being well-read is seen less as a positive attribute and more of an eccentricity. It also seems to be a ticket to poverty; sometimes genteel poverty, sometimes not-so-genteel.

    My point is that the young lady who wrote the article may be in either the wrong place in the wrong time, or just in the wrong place or the wrong time, or both. I’m a straight single male in a cultural wasteland, and my frustration is sort of a reverse mirror image of hers. Here there are a lot of very attractive, even beautiful women (mostly young enough to be my granddaughters–not that I care), yet unlike the New York Woman that I was used to (attractive AND smart and culturally literate), the good-looking women here are mostly what I call “Shopping Mall Barbies.” And in as status-obsessed an area as the Big Hustle is, being a well-educated AND financially-strapped straight male is about as desirable to women here as a herpes virus.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 7

  17. hb Says:

    As much as I hate to admit it, I think it’s true that most men will see a divorced mother with young kids as liabilities or an added responsibility with special considerations while in the dating mode. OP is educated and would bring something to the table. However, all that must be balanced out. It is definitely going to be more difficult for her in the dating scene. She might start looking at her potential suitors differently. For instance, if a guy is sweet and smart enough and willing to learn how to manage his finances or he can manage but his nest egg is small compared to yours or your ex, AND he’s not attractive and just plain or very average in looks. You might give him a chance. You do need to prioritize your wants/needs and no, there is no Mr. Perfect, just as there is no Ms. Perfect.

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  18. DowntownAngel Says:

    I so disagree with the advice given (to become a person you want to date). Men do NOT want to date themselves, in fact a lot of successful women in traditionally “masculine” fields struggle tremendously in dating for that exact reason. Your MBA isn’t gonna help you in dating life and does not make you a more desirable candidate to date over, say, a pretty receptionist with a nice demeanor. Just doesn’t work that way.

    It’s really hard to tell exactly why the OP is struggling in dating without knowing how she looks, how busy she’s with the kids, does she work, where she lives, etc. But in my view, a wise strategy for he would be to target a slightly older crowd (45+ yo), divorced. On the bright side, she already has childen and doesn’t have the clock ticking. There’s plenty of guys over 40 in same situation who would prefer her over a woman her age with no kids as it removes the pressure to have them.

    Where those guys hang out? Usually – at work. Corporate retreats, conferences, other functions like that. Getting a catering job could be a good way to meet them if she doesnt have a professional career herself. When these guys don’t work they sometimes do thingsl ike buying a new car, going to a sports bar, a hockey/basketball/baseball game, or for steak dinner. Those are places to meet men, (wine tasting events and yoga retreats are not). Also, guys are on average more outdoorsy than women, so performing any outdoor activity in a group would improve her chances. If her kids go to school, look for divorced parents. Paid dating sites are a good place but she should keep her expectations low. May be 1 quality date in 2 months in a highly populated area is a good estimate.

    And, it goes without saying that she should be in her best possible shape and always groomed, dressed nicely (not to be confused with expensively) and have a nice, positive demeanor

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  19. Amy Says:

    I see a lot of sense in Downtown Angel’s post. In my experience (friends/family), many more professional/educated/financially stable men seek a woman who does NOT mirror them in terms of those characteristics, but rather complements them. Men who have been married (and may have children) KNOW what it takes to keep a home running, and often want a woman who (while she certainly may have a job) is somewhat comfortable shouldering most of that responsibility, rather than a hard-charging careerwoman who is a peer in that arena.
    Of course we can’t generalize, and it may be different in urban areas, where everything seems to be more competitive and intense. But I would say her best demographic is going to be divorced fathers.

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  20. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    “To be honest, a financially stable man could be the manager of the Target as long as he is stable and can manage his household.”

    Have you tried dating the manager of Targert? If you’re truly willing to date the manager of the Target, that tells me you must be excluding men on some other basis. (I know this because that’s what it means whenever a person says “I only seem to attract x, y & z.” It means you select x, y , z and ignore others.) So, why are you excluding the “others?” Only you know that but my guess is that you’re excluding men on the basis of their looks (whatever your taste) but are then disappointed when the superficial qualities you seek don’t translate into other quality character traits.

    The ideal man for Gina is a family man – that is, a man that already has children from a prior marriage. That is a man that has already demonstrated a willingness to make sacrifices necessary to have children in their life. In other words, you will not need to convince that man that it’s “okay” that you have kids, so you’re ahead of the game. This is not a guarantee of success – even those guys may have plenty of options, but rather this is an exercise in increasing the probability of success, rather than the current strategy of trying to date unemployed but handsome bachelors. Where to meet that family man? Is that really the question? I couldn’t tell you. Bowling alley? Maybe Chuck-E-Cheese on a Saturday?

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  21. Deen Says:

    Moxie

    I am totally surprised at your response. Seeking a professional, successful and financially stable man does not mean she’s looking for someone to take care of her. Settling down after high school does not automatically rule out college and a career. She didn’t she was a housewife, or living off alimony so you can’t simply infer.

    Besides a divorce and kids, ou know nothing else about her but have written her into a corner of needy, dependent and undeserving of what she’s looking for.

    I’m 30 and seeking those same qualities in men (professional, successful and financially stable). Is that your advice for me, get a job and support yourself? FYI, I’m childless, have an advanced degree and own my home.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 6

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      I’m 30 and seeking those same qualities in men (professional, successful and financially stable). Is that your advice for me, get a job and support yourself? FYI, I’m childless, have an advanced degree and own my home.

      Yes, that would be my advice to you. Is that so awful? I’m not suggesting you get plastic surgery. I’m suggesting that a woman be sure she’s able to support herself in case she winds up alone, divorced with multiple children or in case she doesn’t find a mate at all. I know. How horrible!

      If a woman seeks a man and chooses a partner based on his education, his job or his income, then she needs to wake up and realize that there will be a line of women competing for the very same men. Do you think some 35 year old man with a stable job and financial stability is going to take on some 30 year old who lives off her parents or an ex-husband? Of course not. He’s going to want a woman who can support herself. He doesn’t care how (as long as it’s legal). A man is a lot more likely to date the manager of Target than a woman is.

      Besides a divorce and kids, ou know nothing else about her but have written her into a corner of needy, dependent and undeserving of what she’s looking for.

      The divorce and kids was really all I needed to know. Those are her biggest hurdles. Like Craig said, those things are looks/personality/success stabilizers. You’re coming at me, but what about all the men in the thread agreeing with me?

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 5

    • Allan Says:

      When you reduce “eligibility” to the attributes of money and success, then be prepared for a similar set of values sought by the men you seek, because once a man knows that a woman is interested in his wealth, then the rules change and the gloves come off. Why shouldn’t a man seek out women who have the superficial qualities that they desire: namely young, fun, irresponsible happy girls. Best of all they come much more cheaply, typically a day on the powerboat and dinner is enough to impress them.

      So where are these eligible guys? Depending n your definition, the hard working guys are always learning how to care for the people they love; taking courses in welding, engine repair, or home construction. They are volunteering to help at homeless shelters and doing the things that make their lives meaningful.

      The really rich guys? They are spending time with their young girlfriends at their country house in the hamptons.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 0

    • uesider Says:

      This comment is what keeps people single:

      “Besides a divorce and kids, ou know nothing else about her but have written her into a corner of needy, dependent and undeserving of what she’s looking for.”

      Deserving has nothing to do with it. We all “deserve” a professional, educated, and financially secure partner. Not everyone is going to be able to find this partner.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 8

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        We all “deserve” a professional, educated, and financially secure partner.
        No, actually, you don’t. Nobody “deserves” anything in life. The sooner you get over that sense of entitlement, the sooner you’ll find happiness. Most of what we think we “deserve” is merely what we desire, and nobody else has any obligation to give it to us. If you want something, you have to get off your ass and go get it for yourself.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 2

  22. Pete the Greek Says:

    There are lots of single, educated professional men in Meetup.com singles groups. Many even have kids themselves.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  23. mari Says:

    I think online dating is the best solution – don’t need a sitter to create a profile and answer emails, and can have a coffee date immediately after work when the kids are still occupied/sitter is still around. It sounds like you have a job and are, self supporting – and looking for same. There are tons of dads on match.com – no guarantees that they are “no baggage” but definitely worth a try. Also, be open to meeting people at your kids sporting events and other activities..that’s where all the parent’s are every weekend.If you meet someone you want to spend more time with, get a standing Friday night or Saturday night sitter and if you don’t have a date, go out with another single girlfriend and enjoy an evening without the kids.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  24. mari Says:

    Just realized you probably share custody with your ex, and so possibly have every other weekend off – there is an opportunity/time to date – and you can’t view every date as will I marry this guy, just go have some fun with another adult (you can usually tell if they would be reasonably interesting by their profile).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  25. Crotch Rocket Says:

    I settled down with my high school bf, married and had children early.
    How many kids, what ages and what does your custody situation look like? Did you go to college, and can you support yourself? These are very important issues, and some folks will assume the worst if you don’t preemptively provide answers.

    Where can I meet men who are professional, educated, and financially stable?
    They’re all around you, though I’ll point out that few such men are single because other women snapped them up while you were married. Also, these are (superficial) things that every woman is looking for, so the more important question is why would those men be interested in you, as opposed to a woman who is younger, is more attractive and doesn’t have kids?

    How and where can I attract the men I would like to date?
    This mistake is understandable in your case since you have little dating experience, but you (and millions of other single women) need to move a step beyond what you want and figure out what they want–and see yourself through their eyes. Ask yourself what kind of guy would be looking for a gal like you. You may not like the answer, but you’ll be a lot more successful with that approach than beating your head against the wall by chasing guys that will never be interested in you.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0

    • The Private Man Says:

      There is something often missed when women are asked to bring something to the dating and relationship table. The question is better phrased this way:

      What do you bring to the dating and relationship table THAT MEN WANT?

      Those last three words are crucial.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 0

      • The Reluctant Monogamist Says:

        “What do you bring to the dating and relationship table THAT the men you are trying to date WANT?”

        There. Fixed it for you. Not every man wants the same things. I would venture to say most men don’t want the same things. Pesky humans – all individuals.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 6

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          I realize you were trying to be sassy, but the distinction you made didn’t make a shred of difference.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 9

  26. LT Says:

    I definitely understand why the OP is saying she is looking for a “professional, educated, financially stable man” because since she’s new to dating she has probably met a lot of unprofessional, uneducated, financially unstable men!! She has the right to not want to date a bum but in order to find the right match she will have to date different types of men (professionally and education wise…I don’t think anyone should date anyone who is financially unstable).

    As others have said I think you should try to meet divorced dads or men that are over 40 that like children. I think if you keep a positive attitude about just meeting new men then you will do well. Good luck!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

    • Allan Says:

      Exactly! Dating sites market themselves as a way to avoid all unnecessary human interaction. Thus only the people who look good on paper get dates. I would add that much of the time people are actually looking for a much more specific set of requirements that financially stable and attractive, or young and attractive. In any given week they may meet several people who fit the bill, but come Saturday if you asked them if they met anyone, they would answer no. The answer would not be “yes, but they didn’t drive the card I had imagine” or “he’s in construction, I wanted to meet an attorney”.

      People are simply not brutally honest with themselves.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  27. Eliza Says:

    Allan hit the nail on the head. On paper, most profiles are magnificent…but try to even get one of these “people” to talk over the phone, they are incapable to do even that little. They will text at the most. And they will hide behind their iphones and monitors. Online dating is very impersonal, very time-consuming, and can get frustrating. Rarely does someone actually meet you for a cup of coffee.
    Financially stable men on-line? Sure, on paper, they all claim they own businesses or are working, or are responsible. You can market yourself any way you wish on paper. But when they finally reveal themselves…surprise! You find they are living at home with their parents (at the ripe old age of 40+!)
    It’s only natural, to want your partner to be your equal. And men are no different. I don’t care what anyone on here says–I happen to live (and work) in New York. It’s my observation, that the one of the very first questions a man asks a woman is “so, what do you do for work”? “So, do you live in the city”.
    It’s all about labels, titles, social circles – at least it’s that way in NYC. And it’s that way for BOTH women AND men. I can’t tell you how many times I have gone out after work, and people are all about – where you work, and what title you have. If you are an “Executive Assistant” – as someone mentioned on this blog — it doesn’t matter. Even if your are an Executive Assistant, that is polished, well-spoken, intelligent, independent, working, and living alone, AND college-educated. Doesn’t make a difference. You do not have a corner office (even as a woman). You are judged. And yes, as a single newly-divorced women with children…you are judged too. is that wrong, of course it is. People are judgmental by nature. Doesn’t matter if you went to school full-time while you worked full-time. They see what is on the outside. And just because someone went to college, doesn’t mean they are able to secure a career (in this market). I have been fortunately enough to buy and sell property and own my own home, and invest, and manage my finances extremely well….and yes as an Executive Assistant. But I guarantee you, there are men out there, that will judge me based on that line of work. As there are men that will judge you just by hearing you are divorced with two kids. My advice to you is, forget about dating for a while, focus on “you”, and your kids, try to pursue an interest, where you can create a career you can enjoy and grow from, and whether you meet Mr. Right or not, you will be content. Because believe it or not, the men out there, that are not that great looking, and are NOT financially saavy or responsible, are still maladjusted and are not sweet in demeanor to compensate where they lack in their lives. Some men who have less to offer in the looks and career department, as still incapable of being in healthy relationships and are just socially awkward or have nasty dispositions.

    Who needs that? You are better off by yourself, than to have a liability like that on your hands.

    Finding a “quality” person is truly like finding that winning lottery ticket. A man can be formally educated by the way, and have no regard and respect towards women in general. So don’t rule out a man that is not formally educated. He may be rich in many other ways.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 9

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      It sounds to me like the person with a chip on their shoulder about how they earn a living is you, not the men. The only men blowing off a woman for being an EA are the shallow ones looking for trophy wives.

      Maybe I’m just really lucky or I know what questions to ask or I just have good instincts, but I’ve never been out with any guy who wasn’t who he said he was in his profile. I also don’t date outside my means. I don’t go for lawyers or finance guys. I go for people who appear to live a similar lifestyle to mine. There are certain men that will never date me and I’m perfectly okay with that.

      It’s my observation, that the one of the very first questions a man asks a woman is “so, what do you do for work”? “So, do you live in the city”.
      It’s all about labels, titles, social circles – at least it’s that way in NYC.

      Stop trying to date up and you probably won’t meet as many assholes. As much as it sucks to acknowledge, there is a caste system when it comes to dating. Especially in Manhattan. But let’s stop trying to sound above the fray here. If you weren’t drawn to these types of men for their status, you wouldn’t be getting dismissed in the first place. So take some responsibility in the outcome.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 2

    • Brad Says:

      The profiles where the men look ‘magnificent’ but you can never get the guy to agree to a meeting… are they from this site?

      sugardaddyforme.com

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  28. Eliza Says:

    Crotch Rocket wrote:
    “Executive Assistants” seem to have no trouble finding men to marry them–provided they have the other things men are looking for. In fact, they seem to do better than many woman with more impressive titles because those often come at the cost of those other things. Ditto for teachers, nurses and other “pink-collar” professionals.

    Newsflash….not sure what you mean “those come at the cost of other things”?
    and what other “things” do men look for? Agism is rampant in society. if a woman is in her 40′s, you can rest assure, a 40-50 year old man won’t be interested. He will be looking for some 20-30 yr old woman….yet, realize that a 20 yr old doesn’t have the maturity to be in any type of long-term relationship. Basically, men are looking for a woman that is much younger, and educated (yet willing to put their formal education aside) if need be, to “become” a housewife. But prior to making that commitment…a man will want to know that a woman is educated, and working and independent enough to not need him. Now…why would a woman invest all that time and money studying for her degree(s) – advanced and career goals, when ultimately all she will be doing is raising a family? Doesn’t make much sense.

    By the way….secretary or Executive Assistant–it’s all the same. Assistant type work. Office work. It’s all the same. The role and overall job functions are similar. You can sugar coat it all you like, but it’s no different.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 9

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      not sure what you mean “those come at the cost of other things”?
      I meant that being good at one thing usually comes at the cost of something else.

      what other “things” do men look for?
      In the very comment you responded to (tough to follow since you don’t reply directly), I listed “physical appearance, personality, domestic skills, etc.” I could easily expand that list, but if you don’t already know that men are interested in things besides an impressive title or degree, it’s probably not worth the effort to try to explain it to you.

      a 20 yr old doesn’t have the maturity to be in any type of long-term relationship.
      How ironic; ageism is indeed rampant in society. Some twenty-somethings (and even a few teens) do, some don’t. Same for people of any age. Age is at best a measure of experience, which is subtly different from maturity.

      why would a woman invest all that time and money studying for her degree(s) … when ultimately all she will be doing is raising a family? Doesn’t make much sense.
      My mother referred to such women as “getting their MRS degree.” Millions of women get married during or shortly after college, and a non-trivial fraction of them exit the workforce as soon as their husband’s career takes off–and their first kid arrives. Some return later; some do not.

      You may think that pointless since those women could just as easily have gotten married without the trouble and expense of college, but it’s unlikely it would have been to men with the same income potential, and being a SAHM these days is a luxury most, even in the middle class, cannot afford. Also, modern men do prefer women who are educated, even if only so those women can make more intelligent conversations (both at home and with peers socially) and do a better job raising their children.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

  29. Eliza Says:

    Then perhaps NYC is heavily populated with shallow men! When I go out–I don’t see “name tags” and merely approach men that may be “attorneys” or “doctors”–so not sure how I would overtly be “dating up” or “out of my league”. The most successful man in the room can be dressed with a t-shirt, jeans and workboots for all we know.

    I approach a man based on his demeanor, if he is smiling, and seems to be approachable. I could care less what he is wearing, driving, or if he is wearing one of those “cloned suits”. Dating above my means? Wow, if that doesn’t sound maladjusted. I don’t date based on what one’s occupation is. All I stated was that my observation is – a man (in NYC) will first ask, so where do you work or what do you do–Before even asking your name?

    That’s the unfortunate reality here.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      No, that’s your reality. Maybe these men aren’t blowing you off because of your job. They could just be making conversation. Maybe they just aren’t interested in you.

      All I stated was that my observation is – a man (in NYC) will first ask, so where do you work or what do you do–Before even asking your name?

      I’m sorry, but this is a gross exaggeration if not a lie. It just doesn’t happen.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

    • UESider Says:

      Men do that because they are making conversation. They rarely are dismissing you because of it. An EA (or secretary, or file clerk) is a perfectly acceptable vocation. I’m seeing one now. Instead of arguing with Moxie, you need to be spending time looking for the real reason you’re being dismissed.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  30. Eliza Says:

    Moxie–you must have an angel on your shoulder–or perhaps you know of a dating site–we all haven’t been tuned into:

    “Maybe I’m just really lucky or I know what questions to ask or I just have good instincts, but I’ve never been out with any guy who wasn’t who he said he was in his profile.”

    When I read the statement above, I had to pinch myself. At least 60% of people on-line deceive!
    In some shape or form, they will post “self-employed”–when in fact they are actively seeking employment. Yes…you have been one of the few lucky women to have not sat across from someone who didn’t lie about their age, occupation, martial status, kids, educational background, where they live, etc. Not saying everyone lies…but a great percentage do.

    welcome to the real world of on-line dating. Where people post photos of “other people”! not even of themselves. Which dating site(s) have you joined or looked into. Because the ones that I (amongst many other women I know) have–leave a lot to be desired – in terms of sincerity.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      welcome to the real world of on-line dating

      Again, that’s not the real world of online dating. That’s the experience of women and men who practice no critical thinking and common sense who consistently try to date out of their league. When you know what you can feasibly pull and accept it, you’d be surprised at how much easier dating becomes. The people who show up on dates only to be grossly disappointed are the people who go out with anybody who asks. I don’t feel that kind of pressure so I get to be discerning.

      I also don’t sit on a first date and interview men. I enjoy them. I let things unfold and then take it from there.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  31. Eliza Says:

    By the way, the OP has an interest in meeting a man that financially stable, and has his act together. What is wrong with that? Why would a woman want a man that is incapable of taking care of himself to enter into her or her children’s life. She obviously wants a man that is going to set a good example for her own children. That’s my guess.

    Case in point. What do you think of this man:

    Age: mid-40′s; works 2 jobs–that obviously is needed due to finances. Both of which don’t offer any benefits at all. He lives in a dump, a place he has been living for almost 30 years. It’s a rental. He doesn’t own, nor does he care about owning his place at all. He is happy living like a rat in a basement. Because the apt he is in is truly a dirty mess. He doesn’t care to invest his money anywhere. He has never been married, doesn’t have children nor does he ever speak of wanting any of this. What does this type of person have to offer?

    There are plenty of men like this – available.

    Why would any woman (with kids) and divorced or not, want anything to do with a man like this?!

    Ladies…anyone interested in dating the man above? anyone?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 6

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Age: mid-40′s; works 2 jobs–that obviously is needed due to finances. Both of which don’t offer any benefits at all. He lives in a dump, a place he has been living for almost 30 years. It’s a rental. He doesn’t own, nor does he care about owning his place at all. He is happy living like a rat in a basement. Because the apt he is in is truly a dirty mess. He doesn’t care to invest his money anywhere. He has never been married, doesn’t have children nor does he ever speak of wanting any of this. What does this type of person have to offer?

      Here’s the difference. A man wouldn’t care where the woman lived as long as she was supporting herself. He’d think, “Okay, we’ll hang at my place.”

      How would you even know if he rented or owned? Why does that even matter? He’s working two jobs to support himself. Should he live in an apartment he can barely afford?

      You sound like you want a man who owns his own apartment and invests money because you do those things. Guys don’t care about that, which is why they have the options they do. A man wouldn’t blink if a woman he met and really liked lived in some low budget apartment. This is what I mean…you focus on things that really aren’t terribly important.

      Women who insist that a man have an education and have a certain level of financial stability (as opposed to simply being financially stable) are the ones who routinely get sanctioned to the roster of other women. If they get put in the game at all.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

      • Jamie Says:

        Huh. The only thing that would bother me is the horribly messy apartment, because I married a kind, generous, responsible, professional, educated, financially savvy, horribly messy man — and for the over 20 years we lived together, I was walking around his Piles Of Stuff. It took over 2 years for me to get him to put his dirty clothes in the laundry hamper, even after I moved the hamper out of the bathroom and next to his side of the bed where he threw his dirty clothes. It was like a 20-year silent battle for territory.

        So someone like that? If he was fun, and there was magic, I’d say ok yeah fun times! but never dating with the thought of it progressing to cohabitation.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

  32. Eliza Says:

    The ideal man for Gina will be someone who is truly open-minded, and interested in getting to know Gina, based on her personality, and yes that inexplicable “chemistry” is a key ingredient obviously. it will be a man, that regardless of whether he has children or not, is not a “taker”–but a giver by nature, someone who innately puts others before himself, and someone who is genuinely interested in being in a committed relationship–and someone that realized and embraces the idea that any relationship that is worthwhile will entail some work. But the work is worth the rewards. It will be a man that is responsible in general, and has his act together. Yes, financially responsible – doesn’t mean he lives a lavish lifestyle, and travels throughout the world, but someone who knows how to handle his obligations and yet finds time to do what makes him and his partner happy. A nice compromise. Preferably someone not afflicted with the “ME syndrome”…which usually consists of asking themselves “what’s in it for me”? When a person truly loves and cares for another–they compromise their time, their interests and their routines–while not even realizing it! Why? Because it’s effortless. And yes, that’s a rare commodity – in shallow-infested waters – where people are so hung up on what they see, and so-called “caste systems” we speak of here.

    And yes, unfortunately, as Moxie has pointed out–that “caste system” is very much alive in places like NYC…where what you do plays a role in “who you are”.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 5

    • fuzzilla Says:

      >Preferably someone not afflicted with the “ME syndrome”…which usually consists of asking themselves “what’s in it for me”?When a person truly loves and cares for another–they compromise their time, their interests and their routines–while not even realizing it!<

      Yes, I agree with this, but there need to be limits to how MUCH you'll compromise time/interests/routines so you're not being walked all over and losing yourself in the relationship. (So, yeah, I've historically been suckered in by lots of self-absorbed sad sacks, in other words. It did teach me the importance of boundaries and direct communication).

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

      • fuzzilla Says:

        Huh, my comment was actually much longer (I think the > < formatting cut part of it off, don't think I'm being "oh noez" censored).

        Anyway, you should absolutely be asking "what's in it for you" in your relationships. Always, every step of the way. The thing is, "what's in it for you" and "what's best for the relationship" should be more or less the same thing. "What's in it for you" doesn't always mean "fun/sex/instant gratification," it could mean being there for your partner and establishing a solid foundation for your relationship. IF there's enough "in it for you" in that relationship. A good partner will take their partner's kid to the doctor instead of partying with his/her friends because the relationship is ultimately more important to him/her than instant gratification. However, there need to be limits to "being there" for someone. Don't compromise so much that there's no space left for you, don't tolerate "being there" for someone who is not in turn "there for" you.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  33. Mr. R Says:

    Where can I meet men who are professional, educated, and financially stable? How and where can I attract the men I would like to date?

    Well, us guys who are professionals, educated, and financially stable, we have already settled down and gotten married.

    And we marry women like us – also professionals, educated, and financially stable. Like attracts like.

    You might want to read that book “Marry Him”, where they talk about settling. Harsh, I know, but I think Moxie is right when she says that guys would rather marry a woman without kids than one with. With being divorced and having multiple children (like you said, children are not baggage, but they are a factor), you would have to bring a lot to the table in order for a guy to see that and say “hey, I want some of that”.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  34. Eliza Says:

    I would suggest being a doormat, or compromising to the degree where you lose yourself completely, and all your interests and responsibilities and other relationships suffer or take a backseat. But I am stating is when there is mutual compromising on both ends, each person feels as though they matter to each other. If each person in a relationship puts the other before themselves, all should work out. Secondly, when I referred to some 40+ year old man that was living in some rental for about 30 years, I wasn’t suggesting that because he was merely renting, he wasn’t a good catch. I don’t expect a man to have what I have, think as I do, or manage his finances as I do. His finances are really none of my business (and vice versa)–unless we were getting some joint account or considering marriage. Then, perhaps, yes, I am going to know what I am stepping into. The point I was making is, some men are perfectly fine living with clothes all over the floor(s), and cartons of half-eaten chinese food in a bedroom, and having a pile of dirty dishes in a sink for a good 3 weeks! There are men that mismanage their lives like this as well. Their financial situation is a mess too. They filed bankruptcy, don’t care to prepare for the future. And a mature woman that is not looking to ride off someone else’s finances, usually has her ducks in a row, and if they have children, they want a man that is financially responsible. Nowhere, did the OP suggest she wanted to live off of someone, or not work at all. She just wants to meet someone who is a grown-up, not looking to raise “a man-child”–she already has two kids of her own.

    Also, i wasn’t suggesting this man live above his means. I merely suggested that it’s unsanitary to lives under such conditions. There are things we can do to better our lives and our atmosphere. Leaving a litter box uncleaned for about 5 days is not one of them! And there are men out there that mirror this type of negligence in other aspects of their lives. They simply don’t care, see nothing wrong with it, and will never change.

    And by the way, there are plenty of men that won’t want to date a woman that is not hygienic, or lives like some homeless person, amongst garbage and dirt.

    Moxies states:
    “Women who insist that a man have an education and have a certain level of financial stability (as opposed to simply being financially stable) are the ones who routinely get sanctioned to the roster of other women. If they get put in the game at all.”

    What certain level of financial stability. I, like Gina, are merely seeking a man that is financially stable. Don’t care about the corner office, or some meaningless title that goes along with that, don’t care about him owning a home, just live like a human being, and not some pig. You don’t have to own some wealthy portfolio, but yes, do plan for retirement, and be somewhat responsible with your finances, and your obligations, rather live like some nomad, day to day without any plans for the future. We are talking older, mature people, not some 20 year old in college going to frat parties on weekends. Living in some frat house is acceptable when you are in your 20′s–but 30′s and 40′s? Time to grow up I would think.

    As for Brad asking which website have tons of profiles where members lie about practically anything and everything? No it’s not sugardaddy.com or whatever. I am referring to match.com, plentyoffish.com and eharmony.com, you name it, it’s all the same with most online sites. It’s par of the course. Hard to see the forest from the sleaze as they say.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4

    • uesider Says:

      So basically you’re projecting your experiences with one man, who you were interested enough in to go to his place, on all men.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

    • Yoram Says:

      Not to stir up the already buzzing hornet’s nest but your days of requiring that a man have a financial plan in place and be financially stable are behind you.

      It’s a bitter pill for many women 40 and over to swallow. Men in their age range probably aren’t looking for any kind of a formal commitment. If they are they’re dating women in their mid thirties or younger.

      I hate to put it so bluntly but I think you need to accept that most of the men you’re meeting don’t plan on dating anyone for very long. Your focus now should be finding someone you’re attracted to and whose company you enjoy and forget about his living quarters and portfolio.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

    • fuzzilla Says:

      I admit that I projected my own experience into the mix a bit, but I still object to the idea that only some kind of jerk asks “what’s in it for me,” that a good partner is just so above that and always puts their partner first. STARTING to ask “what’s in it for me” is precisely what led me out of codependent, draining relationships the left me seething with resentment. This ties back somewhat to the whole “dinner whore”/resentment over who pays issue – If you do something for/give something to someone else *only* because you expect a specific something in return and will be resentful if you don’t get said something in return, then you have an agenda and are not truly being generous. If you can’t just do the thing and enjoy it for its own sake and be done with it, then maybe don’t do it and save yourself the resentment.

      I dunno, I just feel kind of suspicious when someone who constantly goes on about how partners should put the other person first. It makes me suspect their motivations and expectations are a bit out of whack. Why is it on your mind? Is your partner not doing that, is your partner is constantly disappointing you? Ask yourself why – is it because you give and give and assume they’ll follow suit and they don’t? Do you feel like you’re in some kind of “who’s the better partner” competition? Maybe they never asked you to give and give like that in the first place and you’d be happier and less resentful if you examined the motives for your “generosity” and just didn’t give so much. If most reasonable, objective people who have no horse in the race would conclude that yes, your partner is truly disappointing and just not cuttin’ the mustard, then dump ‘em and move on, end of story.

      I could be way off base or reading a lot into nothing, it just seemed very textbook codependent to me.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  35. Eliza Says:

    I meant to write–I would NOT suggest being a doormat, but someone generous of their time, and able to put their partner before them every once in a while. That’s all.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

  36. Eliza Says:

    To UESider:

    Men do that because they are making conversation. They rarely are dismissing you because of it. An EA (or secretary, or file clerk) is a perfectly acceptable vocation. I’m seeing one now. Instead of arguing with Moxie, you need to be spending time looking for the real reason you’re being dismissed.

    Perhaps I am meeting plenty of self-absorbed, egotistical men then. Perhaps I need to explore other venues outside of Manhattan, where these so-called assholes congregate. I personally don’t see anything wrong with being an EA, I am proud of everything I have achieved, and know my circumstances and how I arrived to where I am. I have integrity, and a strong work ethic. So I am proud of myself for those qualities. Not here to argue–we are all entitled to our opinions and being able to discuss a different points of view amicably demonstrates intelligence and maturity.

    And if “men do that because they are making conversation”?…that’s rather lame. They need to sharpen their conversation skills. Plenty of more interesting topics to discuss. Travel, restaurants to try, fitness, music, theatre, films, world events, the stock market, etc. The list goes on.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Are you a mute? You manage to ask all kinds of questions to discern a man’s financial situation and whether or not he’s lying to you. Any particular reason you can’t make simple conversation yourself?

      Not here to argue–.

      Then stop talking. The reason why people are debating you is because you insist on being right. Add that to the list of things that might be working against you.

      You talk about all these great things that you bring to the table, yet you routinely meet and attract losers and can’t make basic conversation. You sure the problem is all with the men?

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        you insist on being right. Add that to the list of things that might be working against you.
        This. It’s a pity I can give it but one thumbs-up.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

    • uesider Says:

      I live in Manhattan- again, you have some pre-conceived notion of “how things are” based on a very few experiences.

      You refuse to listen to Moxie. Why are you meeting plenty of “self-absorbed, egotistical ” men? Because you are attracting them and attracted to them. You’re not going to fix Manhattan so maybe you need to fix you.

      I think most people talk about their jobs during a date. Again, you’re setting a bar for your dates that will just lead to disappointment. Keep thinking your job is disqualifying you though. Lots of EA’s are dating decent men (like myself) regularly.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

    • dimplz Says:

      I have to agree with Mox and UES here. If you are not having interesting conversations, you are part of the problem, either because a- you are not interesting yourself, or b- you expect the man to carry the conversation or c- you’re picking men solely on looks and are winding up with men with limited conversational skills.
      I’m going to generalize here, but in my experience, men really don’t like talking that much. The ones who talk a lot usually wind up being self-absorbed anyway, as do most men who talk a lot. Therefore, they aren’t interested in being good conversationalists, they are just going through the pleasantries to be able to take you out and eventually do you, and I don’t mean that in a degrading sense, because I think we all want that at some point or another.
      This is not to beat up on you, but based on your language of how guys “should” do this or the other, how about YOU just lighten the fuck up? Seriously. If you are this argumentative when you’re out or this defensive or have this preconceived notion of how men are, that’s what you are going to attract. Yeah, it sounds “Secret”-ish, but really, you get what you give and you get what you expect, otherwise your ideas about how the world worked would be different. Men are not good or clever conversationalists in the real world. Sometimes, I know my man wants me to shut up and he loves me to death and we’ve been together over 2 years. Sometimes, I want him to shut the fuck up and he’s not even annoying me, I just don’t want to talk that much. You have to understand that men are not socialized to be “social.” They talk a lot at work and at the end of the day, they kind of want to chill out and not have to come up with clever topics to entertain you. I’m not saying date an antisocial asshole, but for the love of God, stop expecting so much. Find someone who can make you laugh, and it’s usually the not so fashionable guy with a great smile who’s average-looking who is able to accomplish that. Go for the available guy. Work from there.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 0

      • MrWombat Says:

        “In my experience, men really don’t like talking that much.”

        men have been told that it’s rude and counterproductive to monopolise conversation on a date. Men like *stuff*, and women are not much interested in *stuff*, or so we have been told. Women are interested in people, so right away we are off to a bad start.

        “If you are not having interesting conversations, you are part of the problem”

        Seconded. get rid of the attitude that you are interviewing applicants for a job, that it is the man’s task to entertain you.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  37. Ariel Says:

    So what I getting from here is that any educated and financially stable man (and I mean that in very broad terms) of any age is a silly fantasy for any woman over 40 since she will never be able to compete with the single – no kids 20-30 yr olds if she wants more than just an occasional one night stand. If you are in your 30′s and have kids – basically the same story. It does not matter what you bring to the table because your age and/or circumstances will eliminate you from even a first look. If they do bother- then you will be dismissed the second one of those 20-30 somethings comes along and of course chastised for ‘dating out of your league’. Is the only option to give up and be content to put your life into your career and children if you have them OR to accept that you will never have more than a few good times for a year or two with a man – any man – until they move on for the rest of your life. Seems a pretty harsh reality for women over 40 but that is the message I am getting here – Am I wrong?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 6

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      It does not matter what you bring to the table
      What you bring to the table always matters, but you need to recognize that age, kids, etc. are negatives you bring to the table that have to be balanced against the positives you bring to the table. You have to work harder and offer more just to reach parity with those who don’t have as many negatives. How is this not common sense?

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

      • Angeline Says:

        It isn’t ‘common’ sense because people can’t see beyond their myopia about their own kids. It isn’t obvious, because women can’t see that their smarts, and especially, education – are icing, NOT the main draw. I can’t blame women for believing it, as we’ve been fed this trope in every form of media we bump into. There’s also the Sisterhood promoting this idea that it’s *vital* to not give in to what a man wants in any way, or you’re betraying all the women who came before you and fought for you. They can’t separate out the concept of being treated as a human being on the job, and treating the man you love with respect and making him feel needed and necessary.

        I am continually mystified by the need to be seen as a hard-ass – sparkly “Bitch” license plate and Marilyn Monroe quotes and all. Tip: She was Marilyn freaking Monroe – and she got away with her crazy shit partially because she allowed herself to be seen as vulnerable and fragile. Men were willing to overlook the crazy. Even *she* had to counteract that with the considerable other stuff she brought to the table. Even then, she got dumped after a few months or years. *Everyone* has to put their best foot forward to qualify for the best match you can make.

        Mix that in with the outdated concept that we’re (women) some kind of magical prize by virtue of a couple hundred years of Victorian traditions, and you have a lot of disgruntled and disillusioned women fighting the idea that *they* have to compete for men. Common sense goes out the window when you’re going up against beliefs that prop up ego.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  38. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    Well, let’s take a look at another comment you recently wrote:

    I’d like to know where the decent 45-55 year old men are. I know that’s a narrow range but I’m really not interested in men who are a few years away from retirement or retired. It is a totally different mindset and priorities. I have a good private school job on the upper west side, have traveled extensively, look about 5 years younger than my age, have grown children who do not live at home, can cook, and like to bike. I’m not claiming to be a model but I’m in decent shape. When I was married, my husband was constantly being told how lucky he was. I’ve tried online, speed dating , and various meetup groups. You’d think this would work – but I’m 50, like intelligent conversation – as in I really understand the guys on The Big Bang Theory, and I am 5’8″ which puts me at at least 5’10″ if I wear heels. Also I’m a widow of 2 years now – which seems to send most men running for the hills. I’ve learned not to tell men that if I can avoid it.

    I have gone on 5 dates this year that were disasters. Immediately (within the first 15 minutes )they asked or hinted that they’d like to sleep with me before even making decent conversation. I was dressed quite conservatively so I cannot figure that out. No second date happened as I was not into their agenda. This is from guys who were over 60! Another issue: Two of them claimed to be 5’10″ but I was taller than they were even wearing flats. It was uncomfortable for both of us. The other two dates I went on seemed like nice guys but one felt that ‘I would not effectively enhance his life’ after having coffee with me for all of 20 minutes and the other just disappeared.

    I know I’m not a perfect specimen but any suggestions?

    You place a large amount of emphasis on things that don’t really count or matter to most men. No guy cares that you like to bike. Nor do they want a partner who can engage in pseudo-intellectual conversation. And anybody can look 5 years younger than they actually are, though it doesn’t change you’re chronological age.You’re 50 years old but refuse to date anybody “close to retirement” or under 5’10″. Yet you apply your own biases and feel totally justified. You say nothing about your personality. You only comment on your looks. Then when you are objectified for your looks, you take offense. You can’t have it both ways.

    Let’s then address this frequent complaint that many women have of men making inappropriate remarks. There are two types of men that make inappropriate or sexual comments on a first date – the socially awkwards and the charmers/players. My guess is that you ladies who frequently find yourself across the table from these men are in that position because you put a lot of emphasis on looks and status and pay very little attention to personality or character. The other possibility is that you’re putting out certain vibes and then recoiling when the man tries to cash in his chips. Or you’re just really, really super uptight/paranoid and misinterpreting what they’re saying. I don’t understand how so many women can have this same complaint. Men like sex. Embrace it and stop seeing ti as a charcter flaw and just change the subject.

    You could have a long term relationship with someone. But you have so many biases that you’re blowing those guys off. It’s not that men who want commitment don’t exist. It’s that you can’t manage to find one you believe is good enough for you.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 1

  39. John Says:

    As a male and as someone who is considered wealthy (there’s a difference between “rich” and “wealthy”, but that’s for another post), and as someone who has several male friends in this same category, I can tell you from experience one thing I know for sure.

    Putting looks and inherited money aside, the Rich Well-Educated men are the ones most women would initially ignore. Why? Because most people have the wrong perception when it comes to being rich. They assume rich means wearing expensive watches, suits and luxury cars. The guys I know are all business owners, articulate, ambitious, very efficient with their time and know how to save/invest well. But they wear fairly simple clothes, drive economy sedans and live in middle-class looking houses.

    Believe me, you’d be surprised to know who the real millionaires are and who they aren’t.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 0

  40. Mark Says:

    The problem is that women rarely bring to the table what they expect from men. If a woman earns 50k, she generally dates men who earn at least 50k. If she is 5’6″, she generally dates men 5’6″ or taller. If she has a bachelor’s degree, she generally dates men with at least a bachelor’s degree. That seems fair, right? Wrong. Women generally want someone who is slightly –if not extremely– better than themselves. Hypergamy is biting women in the butt. They want to be well educated and financially independent, but still want to marry someone of greater value. Meanwhile, the pickings are getting slimmer by the day.

    On that note, I think it’s a good time to invest in cat litter stock.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 2

    • offensivedan Says:

      I agree with what Mark says. Plus, women will date as many guys as possible for entertaniment. Then she selects one guy from that pool. The rest of the guys are left with empty wallets and a kiss on the cheek. Jayla is completely clueless and sticking up for her gender, as most women do, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

      • Jayla Says:

        Mark & offensivedan Fact – since the beginning of time mans 2 main roles with regards to relationships have been Protector & Provider. Women’s main roles were housekeeper and child-rearer.
        Fact – welfare was originally created for Women who were widowed and lost their husbands from war.
        Fact – The U.S. court systems typically side with the women and the woman gets more financial protection and gets provided for simply because they are women and this has been the standard since the beginning of time.
        It’s even in the bible. Even women with no children are more likely to get alimony/spousal support than men. Society’s reasoning for this is that generally speaking men make more money than women and have the means to provide for women.
        I didn’t create these facts……whether u agree or not, it is what it is.
        Actually I think men and women are on more equal footing now than ever before as far as incomes. I’m black and definitely in the black community many women make more than men and are more black women are more educated than more black men, statistically speaking. I think spousal support and child support laws need to be seriously upgraded and changed to be more fair to men. I’m not clueless or blind to the advantages women have in relationships and especially marriages.
        But lets be real – if a woman looks good enough and can rock a mans world most men will glady “pay for it.” On another blog all the men agreed that they had no problem paying for dates and whatever else if they felt the woman was worth it.
        Most men, especially those who are financially secure at the very least, have no problem paying for dates and gifts and courting women and what not. Most good decent men who want to settle down anyway and want to develop a real long-lasting relationship. All they want from the woman is that she be good, decent, cook, clean, or at the very least share household responsibilities, and they want to know they aren’t wasting their time and money. They also want to know the woman isn’t using them soley for their money. Some men though dont’ care, they will let a woman use them for money because they are using her for sex. Many times dating and relationships and even marriage has a bartering system, you give certain things and in exchange you get certain things. This may not apply to you and who u know in your immediate circle but don’t think it doesn’t apply to other men and especially men of other races and ethnicities.
        Many african men in fact consider women “property” when they marry them. They treat them as such, however, they also take very good care of them financially. I’ve seen this personally with African women and men that I know.
        As far as physical, yes most every woman wants a man taller than she. I believe part of this goes back to it being ingrained in us since the beginning of time that mans role is the protecter. Generally speaking though society sees taller men as more powerful and they are more likely to get better more high-powered jobs sometimes and shorter men be glossed over. Especially in sports shorter men in general are seen as inferior to taller men. Again this isn’t something I came up with….it’s the way of the world.
        I do think the OP is probably too picky and should be much more open-minded and consider dating other races and ethnicities.
        The bottom line imo is that at the end of the day there is somebody for everybody. You should have sense enough to choose the person that wants you, cause that is typically who treats you the best.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

        • Mark Says:

          “The bottom line imo is that at the end of the day there is somebody for everybody. You should have sense enough to choose the person that wants you”

          Great! There are plenty of low wage men who want professional women. It’s time those women did what men have been doing since the dawn of time: Marrying down.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  41. Jayla Says:

    I don’t think this person gives enough detailed information about their life for people to form so many opinions and make so many assumptions about her.
    We have no idea what her education level is, what her income is and how she makes her money. We don’t know how many kids she has except that it denotes more than one because she says children.
    For all we know she may have supported her ex-husband and helped put him through school. Also she may not be getting any child support and may be able to take very good care of herself. I worked with a woman who was a single mom and divorced before she was 30. But she worked, took good care of herself, was attractive and just had a great personality. She had no problems finding men. In fact she always had men on her. She only had 1 child though. Granted she didn’t have a degree but she worked her way up in our company and took classes and she is getting her BA now and doing very well. However as long as I’ve known her which is almost 10 yrs she never had a problem getting men and having boyfriends.
    I think what she looks like does play a part. Men like and are more likely to approach very attractive and beautiful women. Right or wrong it is what it is. Moxie is right that most men I know where I am, in the DMV want more than just beauty. Especially men who do desire to get married and have a family. Men are getting to be just as, if not more picky than women.
    I think the last thing this woman needs or wants is any self righteous advice from total strangers who know only the very little info she gives and don’t know her from a can of paint and are judging her as if they have had perfect relationships when most folks on here are as single as dollar bills right now and probably half have never ever in their life been married.
    She asked a simple questions and just needs a simple answer.
    My 2 cents is this – what she looks like makes a difference….if she needs to lose weight then she needs to handle that and get her sexy back.
    Not sure where she lives but location makes a difference. Men here in the DMV are on a slightly different level than men in Atlanta and men Philly and probably Chicago. I think the further south u go the more u find more of the “marrying kind” of men.
    There are plenty of men who could easily fall in love with this woman regardless of what she has and/or doesn’t have and love and accept her for who she is. There are men who just want a good woman to love and could care less what degrees she has and how much money she has. They just want a good companion. I think she needs to check the type of men she is attracted to. They may not be the right men for her. Bottom line is attractive and successful men who are players are players no matter the woman. Just like beautiful female celebrities get dumped and dissed there are certain men who are just like that and are not on the same page as her.
    She should be more open-minded also to the men she encounters.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3

  42. HappyPessimist Says:

    I haven’t read all the comments but I believe the response Moxie provided was somewhat unfair. Yes, I understand that most of the readers are childless, unmarried and successful but at 33 there’s no reason why this particular woman must be unsuccessful because she chose marriage and bearing children as an-IMO- somewhat wise option before her eggs went bad lol (sorry, childish joke). That assumption that Moxie assumed about the OP was her OWN judgement, not necessarily what the imaginary wealthy mans judgement would be. I have seen many divorced mothers do much better off with older, more secure men and marry them as well. There are divorced dads who just don’t want the headache and set-in-their-ways attitudes of a single, childless women who is still thinks she would be settling to date a single dad.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2

    • Gorb Says:

      Look, the upshot is–

      The woman in question has a lot of negatives when it comes to creating another committed relationship, and it’s against these hard-core negatives that you need to measure her positives.

      iI she’s super hot, then maybe she has something to sell on the sexual marketplace. But chances are at 33 she’s a mom and harried and not that hot; her limited appeal is dramatically reduced by her negative baggage.

      And before you say that it’s unfair to call this negative baggage, well, look – men can have negative baggage, too. Nobody says it’s unfair to point this out when men have it.

      Live with it. She’s on the sour end of the dating market. She’s going to have to make do.

      A lot of women are grossly entitled when it comes to dating. They guard their sexuality and “spend” it on the best men – because when they have huge amounts of sexual capital (when they’re young and attractive), they can get away with this.

      At 33, this time is largely gone. At 43, it’s finished and buried. At that point, you need to start looking for character.

      All of the well-off single 35-45 something men I know are, iniversally, dating pretty or attractive women 10 years younger than them. All of these women are unmarried and have no kids.

      Deal with it.

      That’s just life. The woman in the post above that Moxie gives such good advice to needs to radically adjust her standards or accept being single or accept being a sex-fun partner or needs to fool some ma n into, say, getting her pregnant. Lots of women do this. it’s a time-honored method of parting a man with his hard-earned money.

      And, incidentally, she’s after not much more than a handout and a bankroll; and Moxie is sharp when she calls out the woman for this.

      One thing Moxie is wrong about, though: No man will want to be with her more only because she has a job. At 33, she’s edging pout of the market fast. If she goes back to school or gets a high-powered job, she might have that career in 4-5 years – at which point she’ll be more or less out of that market permanently. She’ll be competing with 26-29 year-olds for the attention of the same men.

      The men she wants don’t care about her assets. That’s the problem.

      What she wants is just far too far above her station, and there’s no good way to get her there. In all fairness, I think Moxie recognizes this, but just doesn’t want to say it.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  43. Mark Says:

    Ladies; you wanted to be treated equal to men. Now it’s time to act like men. MARRY DOWN! If you expect to marry someone who has more money and more education, you are in for a big surprise. There is a reason men call you gold-diggers. It’s because most of you ARE!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

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