Why “Spread Sheet Guy” Really Bothers Women

I’m sure by now you’ve all heard of the latest viral story about online dating gone horribly, horribly wrong.

I think think that the grand majority of men—even if they are using online dating to find a serious relationship rather than just hook-up—think of online dating as a numbers game. They communicate with lots of women, hoping a few will pan out. They metaphorically throw pasta at the wall to see what sticks…..

The last thing most women ever want to feel? Like they have taken a number at the deli counter.

So what you’re saying is, you want to feel special? Gotcha.

And that, kids, is why some women find “spreadsheet guy” so douchey. Not because he’s an actual tool. No. Because he literally put it down in black and white that these women were merely numbers. Options. The other worrisome part of his little project was that, judging by the attractiveness of all of his dates, women were made aware of the fact that even average looking guys had a ton of opportunities. (No offense, SSG.) My guess is the woman who distributed the Excel Spreadsheet did so not because she actually thought it was funny or amusing but because she was pissed that the other women on that chart were just as hot if not hotter than she was. Intra-gender competition strikes again.

What women learned from this guy’s highly organized Little Black Book was that “hot” wasn’t as much of a bargaining chip as they thought.  They were clunked on the head with the fact that now women actually have to be interesting, accommodating and enjoyable. We always wanted to be judged by the contents of our character, right ladies?? Well, now we are. Mazels!!!

I have a male friend who seems to be caught in this cycle…The problem is that, because he gets such a tremendous stream of interest, he gets distracted wondering if someone a little bit better is just around the corner. He can’t focus to Girl A because he’s too distracted by potential Girl B, Girl C, and Girl D. In my opinion, it’s led him to sabotage some pretty promising relationships by canceling on Girl A to make room for Girl F.

It’s frightening to watch the male species in their natural habitat, I know. Know what though? I bet her guy friend doesn’t fear he’s sabotaging anything. He’s having a hell of a time! When and if he feels like choosing one woman and settling down, he can and will.  I doubt the author of this piece is as concerned for her guy friend as she says. Me thinks what really has her bugged is that she’s witnessing how most if not all of the men she goes out behaves. She’s wondering if the time that guy she really liked canceled last minute was actually sick or if he had just met someone else. Now she’s questioning her own value in the marketplace.

This is a dangerous cycle, in my opinion. Because if you feel like women are in never-ending supply, I think it’s very hard to let yourself go and allow yourself to start to develop real, true, deep feelings for one person.

Agreed! But wait. Why is the author only addressing men with this sage bit of advice? If there is one huge take away from Tales of The Spread Sheet Guy it should be that even okay looking guys with average to decent jobs have a multitude of options. Therefore, females need to learn how to recognize a keeper when they see it while at the same time acknowledging that the days of being wooed with expensive dinners and cocktails are long gone. Now guys are courting multiple women and shelling out maybe $100 a night for the two of you.You might get one night a week with them. Two if schedule permits. But that’s it. A man will continue on down this road until he’s ready to settle down. That’s what makes the difference. He could meet the right woman at the wrong time and never commit. That’s what frightens these women.

Here’s how I approached online dating: I might be conversing online with two guys at the same time. But the minute I met one of them and felt that little spark, I’d halt things with the other.

I tend to agree with her with this approach. I’m not much of a juggler. But then, I also avoided asking any questions that might educate me on what my guy is doing when he’s not with me. And vicey versey. Guys who make a point to let you know they had another date recently are telling you, upfront, they don’t care what you think or how you feel. That’s a brutal reality for many of us, because we want to believe that our bond and connection is special. We want to walk in the door from our date, hop online or on the phone , and tell the world we just had an a-mah-zing date. We want to believe that that guy liked us so much he spent a lot of money or time on little ol’ us.

Here is why the spread-sheeting rubs me and so many others the wrong way: Love is not about comparison shopping.

Except when it is, amirite? I’ll fix this statement. Love is not about comparison shopping. But dating is. There. That’s better. Let’s not get all high horsey here. Men and women both approach dating and online dating with a shopper’s mentality. What makes many women want to lock things down sooner, I believe, is our need to compete and beat other women.

Unfortunately, dating no longer provides women with that sense of safety. Sure, there might be a steady stream of options well up until we’re 45. But that doesn’t mean any of them actually want to commit. I agree with the author that man men get distracted and maybe even deluded by the fact that their options appear never ending. But she and any other woman would be lying if they said that the fact that he had so many options is why they wanted him in the first place. So, in a sense, we contribute to that shopper’s mentality that many men have.

Thoughts?

 

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71 Responses to “Why “Spread Sheet Guy” Really Bothers Women”

  1. uesider Says:

    “Love is not about comparison shopping. But dating is.”

    +1000000. Women like being “wooed” and believing that men are chasing them and only them. But guess what- we have options too. Play hard to get and we just might figure you’re not worth the bother. That’s what many women don’t like this spreadsheet, including the miserable woman that emailed this to her friends.

    I think many of the women that dislike the spreadsheet suffer from princess syndrome. What leaves me shaking my head was why did this fellow share the spreadsheet. Derpy move on his part.

    However, on many comment threads about this spreadsheet, it has been women who called out the woman that made this viral. It’s not cool to humiliate some guy just to have some gossip with your friends.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 3

  2. icara Says:

    I think spreadsheet guy was brilliant (except for the sharing part). In fact, I’m tempted to copy it. I think sites like Match actually encourage this sort of thing, because you’re paying by the month. There’s an urge to maximize the value of your membership, rather than take time to get to know people individually.

    I read over that spreadsheet several times to try to figure out what was so douchey and awful about it. The rating column was a bit iffy, but he was rating online pictures, not dates or performance in bed. But guess what? Dating IS a numbers game these days. I’m sure spreadsheets are extremely common on both sides.

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    • Angeline Says:

      Absolute, total ditto on this. I was thinking “man when I was dating, I might have tried to date more than one person at a time with this system”, just to keep them straight. Not that I had guys lined up at the gate, but there were a few times where there would be a 2nd interesting guy who indicated interest, and 8 would say I was seeing someone. He ws dumb to give it out, but as a spreadsheet geek myself I can see the appeal of showing off the nifty tool. She was the douche for making it public, and NAMING him. So wrong. She’d have sued, saying her safety and privacy was violated, if he’d exposed her in the same way.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2

  3. Paul Murray Says:

    The main two thoughts in The Manosphere on this issue are:

    Firstly, the utter hypocrisy of women complaining. Do they not comparison shop? Women don’t simply keep a spreadsheet (even if it’s a mental one), they show it to all of their friends.

    Secondly, what an utter idiot this guy is for showing it to the woman. Doesn’t he know that you must never tell the truth to these people?

    Yes, it’s a little funny to see the shock at the notion that you need more than the magic ‘V’ to be “worth it” to a guy. But to add to your comments on why women are upset about this guy:

    I think the thing that makes this guy “creepy” is that he clearly doesn’t have friends with whom to discuss his love life. A woman wants a bf that expands her social circle. She doesn’t simply go out with a man, she goes out with the circle of other women in his life. Check any romance novel hero. All of them have relatives, friends, contacts who are women whom it is useful for the heroine to know. If the heroine is a model, the hero will have a sister who is a photographer, or who runs a modelling agency. No woman wants a “lonely guy”.

    Another issue is that his using a spreadsheet reveals him as someone who cannot keep notes about social interactions in his head – he’s a bit aspie, people are a bit of a blur for him. Bummer. Who’s going to break it to all the snowflakes that cool, groovy, socially adept guys don’t need to go to dating sites to find women?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 13

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Jesus.

      “These people?”

      Way to dehumanize a whole gender and strip yourself of any credibility in the process.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 6

    • uesider Says:

      I don’t see it as unable to keep details of social interactions, I see it as a handy way to compare and contrast.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

      • Selena Says:

        Not only that, but it seems a great way to keep track of who you contacted and when. Timely follow-up with those who most interest you. One could even expand the sheet to include things like birthdays, topics of conversation of particular interest, and hot buttons.

        SSG might be getting a lot of flack for doing this, but I bet a surprising number of people will adopt the method for themselves.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  4. Selena Says:

    I suspect part of what bothers some women about this spreadsheet is the fact the guy rated the women’s looks on a scale on the spreadsheet for ease of comparison. Adding notes like, “great body” and “too jappy”. I don’t think women -or men- want to know they are being evaluated that precisely. And especially being compared to numerous others.

    I guess the reason SSG shared his spreadsheet with the woman is because he gave her the highest marks, adding he “hoped to see her again soon”. Poor guy.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  5. LT Says:

    I posted the link about “spreadsheet guy” last week and I said he was a douche not so much for keeping a spreadsheet but for the fact that he was dumb enough to share it with a woman he went on a date with. I called him a douche because I think he honestly thought he was going to impress her because he gave her a high rating and said nice things about her. He didn’t take into account that once a woman sees she’s being compared to many other women she’s not going to be impressed but pissed!

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    • Yuppy Says:

      “I posted the link about “spreadsheet guy” last week and I said he was a douche not so much for keeping a spreadsheet but for the fact that he was dumb enough to share it with a woman he went on a date with.”

      I agree that he shouldn’t be called a douche for using excel, or any other method for that matter, to keep track of his activities. He is just being organized, thus anyone who criticize him for doing so is just negative and looking for reasons to bitch at him.

      Also he was stupid for forwarding the file to the girl in the first place. This is a classic fallacy where “trying to impress” someone doesn’t work. Rather he should just be himself, so that himself is “impressive” to her. That works much better than trying to impress somebody. If himself is not impressive enough then he should spend some alone time to work on himself through self-improvement process.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

  6. DowntownAngel Says:

    Oh this guy is such an moron. He sent the spreadsheet to a woman he (1) liked and wanted to see again and (2) who did not rank the highest on his list (the Romanian makeup artist did). But than again the Romanian ditched him before she met him (good call!) so what does this tell to Arielle – “eh, to bad that hot Romanina didnt want to go out with me, but you are ok too. You’ll do”. And then he’s surprised with the backlash? Do they ever learn??

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

    • Selena Says:

      I bet Arielle still would have sent the sheet to her friends even if he ranked her looks higher than the Romanian make-up artist. Seems clear she wasn’t as interested in him as he was in her. That and maybe she wanted her friends to see the guy ranked her as a “9″, “very pretty, sweet, down to earth”. Pretty she may be, but not the other two.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

      • DowntownAngel Says:

        It’s possible too but that we will never know. I guess another lesson for SSG is that 9-s and 9.5-s of this world are out of his league after all. He may want to “follow up” with 7-s in the future haha

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  7. LostSailor Says:

    SSG showed he was utterly clueless by even mentioning the spreadsheet, let alone sending it. There was only an insignificant non-zero chance the girl wouldn’t share it with her girlfriends for their amusement. Unfortunately, this has the potential to ruin both their lives.

    I don’t know SSG, but a friend is a senior executive at the financial firm where he works. SSG has been suspended, with pay for now, and they eventually asked him to leave the city so he’d stop talking to the press. When this first broke, he was urged to talk to the firm’s counsel and PR people, but didn’t because he didn’t think it would be a big deal. My friend describes SSG as “a really nice guy, but a huge nerd.” A classic clueless beta. If any of his clients bolt the firm over his demonstration of monumental poor judgment, he will lose his job. And good luck getting another one in finance in the city. The girl works at a different firm in the same building, and was also asked to disappear for a while. It’s possible her job could be in jeopardy over her poor judgment about keeping information confidential.

    Online dating is clearly a numbers game. Keeping track of who you’ve contacted, what the responses were, etc., is essential. I, too, don’t like to juggle actual dates, but can usually keep a couple of active dating prospects in my head. But if a guy is keeping many plates spinning, a spreadsheet isn’t a bad idea at all. Just don’t ever talk about it with women and keep it double-password-protected on your computer. Perhaps even encrypted…

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Please. Nobody is bolting that firm because of him. Nor did they shuffle him out some back entrance. If tey didn’t want him talking to the press, he wsouldnt have.

      The amount of pr he brought to that company huge. Theyre probably loving it. Other than a handful of mainstream sites/papers and a bunch of dating blogs, this really didn’t get much exposure. He is in no threat of losing his job. She might be, though.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

      • Selena Says:

        Why would her sharing such a document with her friends jeopardize her job? It’s not like it was confidential company information. Also, the impression I have isn’t it wasn’t her that put this out on the internet – it was one of the friends, or friend of a friend.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

        • DowntownAngel Says:

          You guys don’t get it. Finance is just not the sector where you can get involve in any tabloids crap like that, especially in this day and age. People do much, much worse of course but they need to keep it under wraps. Plus, the amount of disruption both of them have probably caused at work is also huge. I can imagine their associates ae doing nothing but discussing it all day since the story broke.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          That she shared the spreadsheet, i.e. something that was obviously given her in confidence, shows that she does not take confidentiality seriously. Even if this specific incident happened in her personal life, employers and customers will naturally be worried about the risk she’ll make the same poor decisions in her professional life–which could cost a financial firm millions. They may not fire her over this specifically, but they’ll find some reason to let her go–or encourage her to leave on her own. And good luck finding another job in that industry with this incident on her record–though most companies are smart enough not to say that’s why she’s not getting an offer.

          Understandably, this will also have a devastating affect on her dating life. No guy will ever feel “safe” with her; he’ll always have to put up a wall because she’s proven she can’t be trusted not to turn around and blab everything he says or does not just to her friends but to the media as well. She’ll forever be seen as a potential enemy, not an ally. Goodbye, emotional intimacy.

          This case is an extreme example, but I suspect many women are dismissed without realizing it for signs of similar problems on a smaller scale. If you gossip to us about someone else or violate their privacy or confidentiality in some other way, we assume you’ll eventually do the same to us.

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      • LostSailor Says:

        Sorry to disagree, but large capital management firms most definitely do not like this kind of publicity.

        And not much exposure? NY Post, Daily Mail (UK), Telegraph (UK), ABC News, The Atlantic, Business Insider… It’s a fair amount of exposure. And they literally did spirit the guy out a back entrance last week. He’s currently out of state.

        Large financial firm rely on their reputation and clients expect the firm and it’s employees to exercise good judgment and to not bring adverse publicity to themselves or the firm. Clients could very easily move their investments, or at the least, decline to have SSG manage their accounts. Either way, he could be easily fired.

        I’ve also known my friend for many years and he has decades of experience in financial firms in and out of Wall Street. I assume he’s not lying to me.

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  8. joe-f Says:

    I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a woman out there with a spreadsheet. Afterall, there are female investment bankers who are just as good as men on spreadsheets. The spreadsheet is just a way to keep track of all the people we are seeing. Nothing is more embarrassing than confusing one girl for another.

    To the sincere ladies who stopped dating other guys when you find a spark with someone within the first three dates, I am sorry but other women have f*&^ed it up for you. I remembered a number of occasions where after dates 6 or 7, the woman would say she found someone else. After a while, I gave up and just joined the dating-as-many-girls-as-I-can-until-I-get-commitment crowd. That is just the dating reality in NYC and the handy spreadsheet is as good for keeping track of the dates as keeping track of other things.

    The guy’s mistake was sending the spreadsheet to the girl. He mentioned it might be mistake in his email. He should have keep that information like the information on how many women he slept with to himself. Hopefully, others can learn from his mistake.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

    • fuzzilla Says:

      >After a while, I gave up and just joined the dating-as-many-girls-as-I-can-until-I-get-commitment crowd.<

      Makes sense to me. You're not committed until it's explicitly stated. If they can be out with anyone else, then so can you, as you should.

      I don't see what's wrong with the spreadsheet other than sharing it. Are women really shocked that men think that way? Yes, I would be very offended if I were on the list and it were shared with me, but I don't get being mad over the spreadsheet just as a general practice. It's not like this was used to hire people for employment. Just sounds like an outlet to navigate dating like keeping a diary or dishing about dates with your friends.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

      • Selena Says:

        Completely agree fuzzilla. I think the worse thing about this is for the women who’s names, pictures as well as SGG’s comments about them, are now distributed world-wide without their consent. They are the one’s with a legitimate gripe – against the callous individual(s) who released this to the internet.

        I wonder if this will have any affect on the popularity of online dating sites.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

    • Jeff Says:

      As I’ve said to more than one friend; yes some are female, “Players are not born, they are made…by other women!” Want some good advice ladies? Grab’em when they’re fresh out of a divorce. Sure they’re pissed off but they’re only pissed of at one woman.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

  9. Jeff Says:

    I LOVE IT: ” What women learned from this guy’s highly organized Little Black Book was that “hot” wasn’t as much of a bargaining chip as they thought. They were clunked on the head with the fact that now women actuallqy have to be interesting, accommodating and enjoyable. We always wanted to be judged by the contents of our character, right ladies?? Well, now we are. Mazels!!!”

    OR…as I’ve advised more than one stunningly attractive woman from my past, “Your looks only take you so fat with this guy”.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

    • DowntownAngel Says:

      I don’t know if that’s the lesson here for women. Let’s see: he went after “very beautful” 9.5 romanian first, got ditched, went after the 9.0 next. Which just proves the point that a guy will go for the hottest woman he can get, no?

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

      • Selena Says:

        Did the Romanian ditch him? I had the impression he read on FB she was in contact with her ex and he was going to wait to contact her. I haven’t seen the sheet in detail – is it clear he actually MET all these women in person? Or met some of them, others were merely prospects?

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

        • DowntownAngel Says:

          According to the Romanian’s interview she did not go out with him. She described him as a “nice guy” though, this is the verdict right there. The bottomline is, yes the looks will only get you so far, but with no looks you won’t even get that far. C’est la vie.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  10. Zut alors Says:

    “Therefore, females need to learn how to recognize a keeper when they see it while at the same time acknowledging that the days of being wooed with expensive dinners and cocktails are long gone.”

    I don’t know about that, my observation about the dating scene here in Boston is that the ol’ Pareto rule is alive and well. The top 20% of the men get 80% of the action. Myself and my other single male friends in their 30′s are wining and dining ladies but to no avail.

    Personally, I’ve spent over $3K in the last six months through dating services, dates themselves, etc and never get past the first date. I’ll be the first to concede that obviously I am doing some way wrong if I can’t even get a second date after all this, but its not like I am a leper of some type, I hold a good job, keep in shape and I’m financially responsible. My favorite date was a lady who halfway through said, ” I just don’t feel any chemistry between us, but you know what, I really love those crab cakes, so I am going to order more…”. Well, those crab cakes were expensive! Of course she never even offered to pay the cheque, and I just covered it all in the end.

    On the other side of the spectrum, I see my professional highly educated female friends constantly fall and feign over these ‘existentially tortured’ artist / idealistic type bankrupt men and these men get a lot of action. It seems the same circle of men always pops up in these stories and they are highly sought after and coveted by the lady folk. But, these ladies constantly reject men that lack ‘the edge’ even though some of these chaps are good material.

    Certainly I don’t lament these facts, if that is the law of attraction here, so be it, I’ll simply be pragmatic and adjust accordingly.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3

    • DowntownAngel Says:

      oh dear… you know why you don’t get second dates? because you probably come off as a doormat. This is my educated guess after reading the crab cakes story. Next tme this happens to you, pay for you half in cash and stick the b.. with the rest of the bill.

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      • The D-man Says:

        Yeah, no kidding. Don’t accept that kind of BS. You don’t have to blow up, just say “that’s really rude of you.” Bad behavior should have consequences.

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        • uesider Says:

          Irony is that if he called her out on it she would probably be attracted to him for having the balls to stand up to her.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

    • LostSailor Says:

      Gee, Zut, I probably would have walked when she ordered the second round of crab cakes. Just leave some cash on the the table, wish her a good evening, and walk. She actually might have felt some chemistry…

      If you recognize the laws of attraction, you must be pragmatic and follow them. Especially on first dates, while you want to make a good impression and build some attraction, you also have to have the mindset that she’s auditioning for you, too. The question that should always be in the back of your mind is, “is she worth my time and effort?” That, and just don’t put up with bad or rude behavior.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      The top 20% of the men get 80% of the action.
      … just like the top 20% of women get 80% of male attention. Now you know what all those women you don’t ask out are feeling like. Hint: they’re the ones that will appreciate your attention rather than taking it for granted.

      a lady who halfway through said, ” I just don’t feel any chemistry between us, but you know what, I really love those crab cakes, so I am going to order more…”. Well, those crab cakes were expensive! Of course she never even offered to pay the cheque, and I just covered it all in the end.
      First of all, if she did that, she wasn’t a “lady”. Get that right in your head or you’ll never get anywhere. Second, you just sat there and took the abuse. That probably wasn’t the first time, either. The reason she didn’t “feel any chemistry” is that she saw you were a doormat, so grow some balls and stop tolerating bad female behavior. If you think you deserve to be treated like that (and you do, otherwise you wouldn’t accept it), then other people will as well.

      ladies constantly reject men that lack ‘the edge’ even though some of these chaps are good material.
      So there’s an obvious lesson there for you: develop some “edge” of your own, which really just means confidence and self respect. A guy might be “good material” on paper, but without those things, he’s just another doormat to be walked all over.

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    • Kurt Says:

      You are getting clowned by those women. Maybe you should meet up for drinks for the first date so that you don’t get taken advantage of. If a woman objects to drinks for the first date, then don’t go out with her because she probably only wanted to get a free dinner from you.

      Also, you should try to meet women via outlets other than online dating. I suspect that you have a lot of difficulty determining whether a woman is attracted to you and you would probably behave differently if you knew that the woman actually was attracted to you. I am the same way which explains why I do better with hotter women that I meet in person than I have ever done with the aver-looking women I met online.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

    • uesider Says:

      In the heat of the moment, you don’t know she’s going to stick you with the bill- but for future reference if someone tells me there is no chemistry right in the middle of the date, I will say “well, I’m going to call it a night then, thanks for coming out” and pay my bill and leave.

      At least she was honest, many women just “grin and bear it” until the check is paid and don’t return phone calls.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

      • Selena Says:

        I think it would feel awkward to tell someone you don’t feel any chemistry whist still ON the date. And I can see that it also might be preferable to thinking the date went well only to find the person won’t return your calls.

        Which would others here prefer?

        Assume also that in your case, your uninterested date was gracious enough to pay for their own food.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3

        • uesider Says:

          Paying for a date which the other party knows will go nowhere? One of the risks and sucky things about dating as a man. Nothing can be done about it really. By either party.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

          • Selena Says:

            I meant assuming the person paid for their own meal – not making that a separate issue.

            Would you rather be told there is no chemistry while still on the date? Or would you prefer you date let you figure it out on your own by not answering your call/message to them the next day?

            It’s an open question for anyone to answer.

            I’m not sure myself. On the one hand, being told there is no chemistry on their end puts down any further expectations of ever hearing from them. On the other hand, it seems something that would be very awkward to hear when you’re sitting across from them and still have to be polite and say goodbye.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              Neither. This is why I ask about a second date at the end of the first date. If she’s not interested, the awkwardness is minimized since we’re already on our way out–and I don’t have to wonder later why she’s not returning my calls. If she’s interested, we’re there face-to-face and can at least make tentative plans, so all I have to do is follow up later to confirm. Granted, some women will lie to avoid confrontation or change their minds later, but that’s fairly rare. Also, in my experience, women who want another date will usually reference “next time” somehow during the date. The ones I’m uncertain about are usually the ones that decline or fade out.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

    • fuzzilla Says:

      I agree with everyone else that you should’ve left cash for your half of the bill and bid her adieu. I’d be tempted to say “…and I hope you and your crab cakes are very happy together” (that’s an urge to keep in check, though, as it’s unnecessarily dramatic. If someone were as rude to me as that woman was to you, I could give a shit about being “nice.” I do, however, very much give a shit about keeping my anger in check and not wasting my energy on bullshit). Anyway, I think you should’ve left and said something generic and pleasant like “think I’m gonna call it a night myself. Nice meeting you.”

      To cut Zut a bit of a break, I can imagine feeling rather blindsided in the moment if I were in his shoes.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

      • uesider Says:

        Good reason to bring cash on dates. Credit card could make it a little awkward.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

      • LostSailor Says:

        “…and I hope you and your crab cakes are very happy together”

        Definitely keep that urge in check. It only shows that her behavior got to you; a cutting remark is completely unnecessary and counter-productive. Keep it classy.

        Zut may have been blindsided, I don’t know. But I get the impression that if he’s only getting first dates and zero traction after that, then he’s seen this type of behavior before. Like most men, I was raised to be polite and this usually means most men will sit through this, either not recognizing that it is rude or not wanting to be rude in return. I’ve learned that you can be polite and still stand up for yourself.

        In the couple of years since my divorce that I’ve been off-and-on dating (both online and off) I’ve only ever had a very few “just first dates.” Since I insist on drinks or coffee only on a first date–no dinner–there is usually a longer second date. If it’s not working by then, a polite eject. I have had some get to third dates before the eject, but usually if there’s a third date, we’ll be dating for several more weeks and on two occasions a couple of months.

        If he’s as a rule not getting beyond a first date, something’s wrong.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          I’ve learned that you can be polite and still stand up for yourself.
          This is an incredibly important and useful skill, and it’s one (of many) that my parents never taught me: I thought polite meant being a doormat. This is related to the mistaken belief, held by many such doormats, that women prefer assholes; no, they prefer men who stand up for themselves, some of whom just aren’t very polite about it.

          If he’s as a rule not getting beyond a first date, something’s wrong.
          My money says he’s trying to date out of his league and either his profile is misleading or women are only agreeing to go out with him for the free meal and free attention. This is yet another reason to keep the first meeting to something simple and inexpensive. And, of course, he needs to be more realistic about the kinds of women that will actually be interested in him.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

    • Diana Says:

      Zut alors – No one dates as much as you have and ends up with no second dates unless you are doing something seriously wrong. Also – are you asking for the second dates and getting turned down, or not even bothering to ask because the woman isn’t falling all over you at the end of the first date? There seem to be a lot of either shy or needy men out there who need significant amounts of encouragement to follow up, maybe you are one of them. Bottom line, I don’t think your are so much of a doormat or nearly as nice a guy as you claim to be. My guess is that you are dull as a dirt on a date, or say bitter or slightly inappropriate things. You need to either work on your dating skills – it’s like preparing for a job interview – or deal with whatever your “issues” are that are being revealed in some way during these dates.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Disagree. I think his experience is more normal than you think and probably isn’t totally due to a lack of social graces. It sounds like a big part of his problem is that he’s meeting several classless women who use those sites for dates and attention.

        He’s going out with anyone, which is why he’s strikingout more.

        Also, do share withtherest of the classall of your success. You soundlike a charmer.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          If he had said he rarely got a second date, I would agree that’s fairly normal, but not if he never gets a second date. That’s not about the women; that’s about him.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

        • Diana Says:

          Don’t know how you all saying he is either just dating anyone or dating women out of his league helps him. If that’s what he’s doing, then he has some underlying issues. I guess it lacks charm to actually bluntly state a comment that he should take some responsbility for his own results? This is an anonymous website where people ask for feedback. And all the comments had been poor him A lot of comments like that, and I didn’t believe the groupthink was on target. I wasn’t saying he’s not a good person, just that his perception of himself as a martyr is perhaps not a realistic picture. That he has things to work on. Now that I know the rules here, which is to reassure and complain, but not criticize anyone, I will abide by them lol.

          After leaving a long term relationship that was complicated due to the usual 40-something stuff (careers, ex-spouses on both sides, kids, etc.) have only been online dating for five months or so, and have done fine. Seems relatively straightforward to assess the profiles. Dated the first guy I met for three months, that involvement evolved as it should have, and we parted friends. Back at it for a couple of months – meeting what I think represents a typical cross section of men, no problems. So I guess I do have some charm, your comment notwithstanding. : )

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2

  11. The D-man Says:

    This episode reminds me of an idea a woman friend of mine had: she wanted to create a web site that would help you manage all your online dating. Essentially a spreadsheet. She gets a lot of inbound interest and has a hard time keeping track. (She *is* pretty hot, especially for her age.)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  12. TallDrink Says:

    I think what bothers the author the most about the spreadsheet is that had she gone out with “spreadsheet guy” he probably would’ve rated her one of the lowest scores. If you look at author “Kate Torgovnick” you can see why she has such a fragile ego. She’s a plus sized woman. And as such is likely to put all of her egg(s) in one basket. And is thus devastated when that egg breaks. I personally know 2 women (roommate of girlfriend and ex-girlfriend) who date multiple men (3+) during the week from different dating sites. One is 23 the other is 34. Both are attractive but I don’t think that either are naive enough to think their dates aren’t doing the same thing. Simply put…. a woman who has many “options” doesn’t really feel threatened by a man who also has many options.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

  13. L. Says:

    OKCupid has actually done studies on this phenomenon of men sending out form emails in “volume” … another way of looking at throwing out spaghetti to see what sticks.

    What they found is that this behavior is caused by women who either play games or who don’t respond. In general … men … in order to be able to not waste their time and get to a date … have to write women in volume. This, in turn, causes women to not feel special and feel even more disinterested and disheartened with the process and causes even more blowoffs. And so on and so on. It snowballs.

    You know, men also have limited time to spend on trying to make connections. It’s one thing to invest time with someone who you’ve already made a connection with (aka on a date) – it’s another thing to invest time crafting custom emails to women who are for the most part, not likely to respond or if they do … aren’t serious or truly interested.

    Again, I know this doesn’t apply to all women … but it applies to enough to be able to make a generalization.

    The reality of it is … give men a reason to slow down and invest their time by focusing on a few women in a targeted way (by responding and engaging and perhaps even going on a date) and you’ll see how fast they will do so. Continue to blow so many off so easily by making prejudgements about someone that you don’t even know, and I can assure you that this behavior will continue to be reinforced and will continue.

    This is an unfortunate byproduct of the online dating game, and one reason why I feel that you’re much better off meeting people in person or by intros.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 2

    • uesider Says:

      I liked your post but one one point I’m going to disagree. Lots of women don’t respond to anyone, or the most “eligible” of guys- however what you’re suggesting is that they respond anyway to guys whom they aren’t interested so that men don’t get discouraged.

      Why? If they aren’t interested, they aren’t interested. As we know, some of the reasons are ridiculous and are the reason these women are going to be single their whole life. But they have no obligation to respond, just like we don’t.

      Recently I wrote 20 emails and got 2 responses, resulting in 2 potential relationships with at least a little promise. Locating women worth contacting took most of my time, writing them was as simple as a few lines “hey liked your profile…” and asking them an open ended question based on something in their profile- “see you liked this Quentin Tarentino movie, did you also like….”.

      One thing we men forget is that although we may get 5-10% response, we have also done the picking. I don’t send emails to everyone, they have to meet my age requirements, attractiveness, and they have to be interesting in their profile. I’d say I only message 5% of the profiles I look at that meet my age requirements. I’m picky, most people are as well. Add that up and I get 1 date out of every 200-400 profiles I look at. I guess I’m making pre-judgement of women I don’t know. I’m fine with that.

      Should I message every woman whose profile I view, so that they don’t get discouraged? If they respond, do I have to go out with them, even though I’m not interested? Of course not.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

      • L. Says:

        Your points are fair and well-taken. But I am NOT suggesting that everyone dates everyone. I’ve said that here before.

        First of all, I am giving you the raw reasoning. Whether we like it or not, people are less likely to craft carefully worded custom emails if they know their time is highly likely to be wasted. Whatever the justification is for the non-responses.

        Secondly, I would submit to you that in many cases, it is NOT POSSIBLE for someone to know whether they are interested in someone or not from a couple of pics and a profile … AND … I would also submit that it is also likely that much of the time, people are ambivalent or unsure about someone who has written them. In other words, it isn’t always the case that one knows immediately that they are DEFINITELY NOT not interested in the person that wrote them. I know this because I have bypassed women and gone back and given them a 2nd/3rd look and then thought “you know, this may not be her best pic” or “you know, she’s pleasant looking enough and maybe I could like her”. Sometimes, you don’t realize that you’re missing a key element to attraction … the person’s innuendo, the way that person walks/talks, the way they smile, their mannerisms, etc. You can’t possibly get this from a profile and a couple of pics. This stuff can also work against the attraction, btw. But the point is … you can’t know about this stuff until you talk to or meet them.

        So no … you shouldn’t message every woman you view. If you have plenty of dates that lead to plenty of good, solid, productive, satisfying, gratifying long-term relationships with quality people … just keep doing what you’re doing. But if what you’ve been doing isn’t getting the right results, it may be time for some “widening of your net” … not to include everyone, but to include more or different people.

        Same thing holds true for women, the receivers of the emails. Believe me, it isn’t always so cut/dry that a guy is totally unappealing to them. If you want things in life to work out, sometimes you have to show some flexibility. And just to clarify, I don’t advocate dating anyone and everyone … just to ensure that men don’t get discouraged. I hope I’ve made that clear.

        There is a new show on VH-1 on Sunday nights at 9 called “Tough Love”. It’s an interesting show that kinda highlights what I speak about here all the time. It attempts to “teach” a group of women who are high maintenance and highly picky that they are not exactly prizes themselves and that they need to basically lower their standards if they want to be successful in relationships. Yes, it’s a reality TV show, but it’s something we can all learn from.

        Note: I fully expect many to disagree with me here … especially the women … and that’s ok.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

        • uesider Says:

          Sometimes I’m not sure and I do go out with them- but the ones I don’t respond to or that I don’t message after looking at their profile, I’m sure. At least, I’m sure I don’t want to spend some time to see if she is the one. It’s all about odds and maximizing the effects of my time. If the woman is 200#, or conservative politically, or comes off as a princess in her profile, I’m not going to write her or approach her. Maybe I’m missing out on someone great- I’ll take that risk.

          If I’m going to craft “custom” emails (really just hi and mentioning 1 thing from her profile), I’m going to be reasonably sure that she has a chance.

          I think we are basically in agreement but the issue I take is that your messages seem to blame picky women on the state of the dating market today. It may be just your point of reference being a man. My point is that men are picky too, and I’m showing you how we are picky. I maximize my time by not messaging the ones that aren’t likely to meet my requirements, or where I’m not likely to meet hers (she’s too young, etc.)

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

          • L. Says:

            The men that I know? Are not anywhere near as picky as the women I know. Sorry, but that’s just the way it is.

            I agree with you also. But again you are picking OBVIOUS points about their profile …. things that stand out about them … that make them unappealing to you. That’s fine. We all have that happen. But again, that is NOT always the case. There are many many times when it’s something small that when you look closer, may not be as big a factor as you may have originally thought. And Lord knows, we’ve had many discussions here about the truly unimportant things that people prejudge on like geographical location not being on the UES, being only 5 inches taller instead of 10 inches taller, etc. Many people begin to “invent” scenarios in their mind about how they would be with these people when they can’t possibly know.

            So we do agree on some of this, but perhaps we don’t agree on this element of it. And that’s ok.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  14. Gorbachev Says:

    The outrage over this from women is entirely bitter scorn and hypocritical judgmentalism.

    Telling the truth like it is bites hard, but there it is. Women do this to men all the time – usually the same women who complain most loudly when men do it to them.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

  15. Diana Says:

    So I had an interesting discussion about this very topic with of all people – my ex-husband! Nice guy, just not right for each other, we got married young, etc. So we have been divorced for ten years already, and have a pleasant co-parent/acquaintance relationship. I was joking with him about trying online dating now because I knew he met his wife online. He told me that over a period of a year and a half he went on hundreds, hundreds! of dates. I was surprised, he is not the player type. He made a commitment to finding someone and just kept at it until his numbers game worked. I admire his energy and stamina, sometimes three or more dates in one weekend, half a dozen on average per week he said. But it worked, he found the right person for him. And she doesn’t seem to hold it against him that she was a line on a spreadsheet lol.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

    • L. Says:

      And so you see that the only way you can make online dating work for you is to actually respond to emails (or send out more emails if you’re a guy) and actually engage in conversations and actually go on dates. Many dates. It’s a numbers game. If you’re a guy, you can’t sit at home selectively picking out only the modelesque women and if you’re a woman, you can’t sit at home opening up emails and only responding to the hottest guys. Make some compromises, and you can make it work for you. It’s only a date, for gosh sakes! If he/she is that horrible, you can leave and not have to go out with them again! And you never know, you might like them!

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  16. dina Says:

    sounds like spread sheet guy had way too much time on his hands. more than anything he sounds like a loser. he was probably some pimple faced kid all throughout high school and college and couldn’t land a date, and now that he’s finally come into his own to some extent he’s trying to make up for lost time and be the “playa” he never was.

    average guys are not james bond and they shouldn’t try to be like him… average girls pick up average guys and vice versa. if even average or ugly people have options, their options are still other average and ugly people.

    in general… when you see an attractive person with an unattractive person, it means one of them was hard up.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 16

  17. Erine Says:

    SSG did nothing terrible. As for other stuff, pple seem to forget that it is not about gender ehen it comes to who has the most options. I hear my female friends complain about how men have all the options and i Hear from men how are the ones who do the picking. But its not about gender but all about a specific person. The person that is attractive, of suitable age and interesting ,,,(+a good job for a man) is the one who is doing the picking. Disclaimer: a woman has those o options in her 20′s and whenevrearly 30′s, for a man its less age related. So whenever I her how or women h educated ll the options I Beung attracthe

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2

  18. Gorbachev Says:

    Dina,

    You;re dead wrong. The guy may have been a “loser” a decade ago, but he’s clearly come into his own. His only mistake was sharing the list.

    Average guys can attempt to be James Bond if they want to. Why not? I know lots of unassuming guys who run the figures up like you wouldn’t believe, all relatively easily. These days, if you go on dates, and you make a guy wait for it – you basically say you’re not interested in dating. Three dates and no sex = it’s never, ever going to happen, so give up and move on. It’s sexual liberation: Deal with it.

    And normal guys have a grotesque advantage over normal and even above average women in the over-30 market.

    When you see an an attractive woman with an average guy, especially if the guy has no money, the guy has some solid game. And this scenario repeats thousands of times a day all over America.

    And if you “come into it” in your mid 30′s or early 30′s, then more power to you. Why not rock the casbah like you couldn’t do when you were 20?

    If anything, the guy sounds like an idiot for sharing the list. In fact, I’d say if he was bedding any of these women, then your definition of “loser” sounds more like

    “I want average guys to know their station and not get uppity.”

    Threatened, much?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 8

    • dina Says:

      These guys who you say, “run up the figures relatively easily” are with easy girls. that’s the only reason why they get any. and you make my point… average guys pretend to be playas making up for lost time. they have no real game… a boy in a man’s body, that’s all it is. keep telling yourself that men have an advantage. they don’t. but you keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5

    • dina Says:

      btw, an average guy who knows his station is being realistic. same goes for women.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4

  19. PhillyGal Says:

    You hit it on the head for me when you said that the worst part is that an average looking guy has this many options online. That’s what really annoyed me. I had already decided that I was going to pull back from online dating. This completely confirmed it for me.

    He may be a wonderful person. But if a guy that average looking is dating 8 attractive women at a time? The odds are not in my favor…so I think I’m better off with the traditional method.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3

    • TallDrink Says:

      Yeah, but as a guy that’s what I call being a quitter. Too many women decide to opt out of having to “compete” when there’s only a miniscule amount of competition. Just because this guy went out with these attractive women doesn’t mean that they in turn found him attractive. They might have been in it for a free meal or drinks. And yes, I know a female friend who was recently laid off and is doing just that. Anyway, the thing to do is work on yourself and/or accentuate what you’ve got. Hell, I’ve even seen a bigger woman (who wore high-heels, a shape flattering dress and probably hair extensions) come into an a club and steal a dude right from underneath some skinny chicks noses. It was her confidence and subtle sex appeal that did it for her though. That and probably the fact that the skinny chics were acting aloof and being unengaging.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  20. Eliza Says:

    I agree with CrotchRocket when he stated:
    This is related to the mistaken belief, held by many such doormats, that women prefer assholes; no, they prefer men who stand up for themselves, some of whom just aren’t very polite about it.

    Only a maladjusted woman in the dating scene is looking for a “bad boy”, and only some twisted guy is looking for a biotch. As a side note, only a thoughtless, clueless and classless woman would tell you there is no chemistry in one breathe and then order herself a second helping of crab cakes! And then, not even extend a genuine offer to contribute towards the bill. She is obviously very self-serving, and within a few emails and conversation with her–you may have noticed that, and not bothered. If you look for surface qualities…that’s precisely what you will get. You may be a very nice guy–but if what you seek is a woman with integrity, and inner beauty too–you need to be a better judge of character than to waste your time with someone who would treat you this way.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

  21. Eliza Says:

    This it to “L: when he wrote:
    The men that I know? Are not anywhere near as picky as the women I know. Sorry, but that’s just the way it is.

    Sorry to disagree…but you are very wrong. Many men on-line are quite picky. They don’t even bother to read a brief profile, they see a photo…and dismiss if it doesn’t sit well with them. Men will cast aside a woman based on age, geographical location, weight, etc. It’s the hard truth–accept it. And women do the same. Both genders are equally guilty of doing this. EVERYONE is picky! we are looking to meet and be with someone who we can integrate into our lives. So, for those of us who do take dating seriously–and don’t have time to waste…we want to be selective, and not just date blindly–without any standards.

    Then you have those men, whom you actually speak with over the phone, and then after a seemingly pleasant conversation, you get a text message stating “you seem easy to talk to, and sane…OK–what’s wrong with you”? Why? Because I am single? and online? They are waiting for the other shoe to drop, or hearing or seeing something negative. Rather than remain positive. How sad, that it has come to that. It would be refreshing to meet someone more upbeat and positive, and that doesn’t look a gift horse in the mouth, enjoys the moment, and accepts a person for how they are (at that point)–and gives that person a chance.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

    • L. Says:

      You’re right. Both genders are equally guilty of this and my friends and I have had the same types of experiences with women. It IS sad. But I still say … both genders could use some loosening of their “requirements” and increase in flexibility. It can only help. It can’t hurt.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  22. Eliza Says:

    Wow – dina wrote:
    in general… when you see an attractive person with an unattractive person, it means one of them was hard up.

    What a shame, that you see it that way. Perhaps there are qualities – that the so-called “unattractive person” has – that are intangible, and charming. Not everyone is driven, motivated by merely what they see on the outside. As they say–beauty is skin deep–ugly is forever and rotten to the core.]

    When you know of a good-hearted person, with someone that mistreats them, THEN you know the person being mistreated is “hard up”.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

    • L. Says:

      And this is how we know that we could be short-changing ourselves when we make quick, rash decisions on people from a dating profile that we don’t even know.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

  23. VJ Says:

    In other math related news, what a female Bates-Clark Medalist looks like. From MIT, natch:
    http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/amy-finkelstein-wins-clark-medal-0427.html
    Cheers, ‘VJ’

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

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