Fifty Shades of Douche

Interesting article over at The Frisky. This one is about Mad Men’s Don Draper and his supposed S & M fetish.

It’s important to note that no where in the interview with Mad Men’s creator Matt Weiner does he state that Don is into S & M.

“Don’s relationship — and [the] women in his life’s relationship[s] — between power and sex is very closely linked. And I think it’s part of the human experience. I think it’s an animal thing. Powerful men in particular seem to want to be controlled sexually. … I think what you’re seeing is that they do have a vibrant sex life, and she is controlling that part of it, and he likes it. And it’s the way they fight. And it’s kind of her saying to him, ‘You want to be this way? Then you can’t have this,’ and on some level wanting him to realize that he won’t get it. And what I love about it, and what I think is fresh, is that this woman is not judged afterward. It’s very rare for a woman to express that kind of sexual confidence and control and not be the prostitute, and be somebody’s wife and be in a relationship afterward. I’m both sexualizing their relationship and explaining her status in the relationship.”

 

Okay, but…Don does get it. Megan, his wife, does like to taunt him with the possibility that he might not be able to have sex with her should he continue to be the self-centered twat that he is. But she always gives in to him. It’s not as though she’s controlling him at all. More like she’s just issuing empty threats because she’s a child and that’s how children argue. It’s not so much a submissive/dominant dynamic as it is a parent/child dynamic. Megan is willfull, but it’s an act. There is no maturity or even distribution of power or control to Don and Megan’s relationship. Don is the one in control throughout. In fact, Don exerts a disturbing level of control over Megan. Megan was a failed actress who worked some entry level job at Don’s agency. Of course she’s going to find Don impressive. That’s part of the plan. Don is a damaged human being with a woefully fragile ego. He will never be with an equal.

I wonder if when women swoon over Jon Hamm they’re really expressing attraction to Don Draper. Hamm seems humble and sweet in interviews. And, of course, he’s quite handsome. I’m not saying all women actually want Don and not Jon. However, I genuinely believe what really draws some women to Hamm is the darker side to Don Draper’s personality.These women will never admit it, but only because, I believe, they aren’t aware of it.

Don is a narcissist. That’s what compels him to be so assertive and confident. He has to win. If you notice, he flames out whenever a client doesn’t immediately take to his campaign suggestions. He has to have the last word. Any blow like this to his ego throws him off his game. That’s why the women he chooses are noticeably weaker – emotionally, physically, professionally – than he is. He can not take on an equal. He has to be the dominant partner at all times.

Speaking of which…

Hi Moxie,

Have you read or at least heard of this Fifty Shades of Grey book? I begrudgingly read it for a book club I’m involved in and am still seeing red. Even more so when I went to the club and half the girls thought this guy would have been relationship material in the real world. I would almost go so far as to say the book is dangerous to girls and young women. I guess as someone once involved in an extremely destructive emotional sub/dom relationship in my mid 20s…the only thing good about it was it made me go to therapy to see just how fucked up the situation was. Just thought I’d throw it out there…might make an interesting blog post.

There was quite a hub bub last week over Katie Roiphe’s article in Newsweek. In the piece, she suggested that maybe some women, especially those who like to identify as feminists, actually secretly long to surrender in some way to a man like Christian Grey, the lead character in Fifty Shades of Grey. Roiphe suggests that that is part of the fascination with this book.  I’m suggesting, though I doubt I’m the first, that that’s also part of the appeal that Mad Men has for some women.

As strong and as independent as we are, there’s something about these types of dysfunctional men that we find attractive.  We like to battle these men and need to believe we can break them down so that we can feel as though we dominated them. But in order to get to that place we must endure incredible amounts of pain, shame and humiliation. We’re drawn to the psychological warfare these men provide, unaware if how truly damaged and damaging these men usually are.  We mistakenly find them charismatic. These men aren’t charming or cunning or even smart. They are broken individuals. We should fear these men but we don’t.

Ever since the book Fifty Shades of Grey made a splash, there’s been a lot more talk about “kinky” bedroom behavior and submissive/dominant relationships. To me, there’s a difference between intentionally engaging in or taking a submissive or dominant role and just having sex with someone who likes to hurt  or humiliate. It unsettles me at how often the two types of relationships get conflated.

In my mind, true healthy sub/dom relationships  involve a high level of communication and emotional maturity. Those relationships, to me, seem far more psychological than physical. They have to be in order to work.  Each partner has control and exercises it when they choose.

Don and Megan, in my mind, are not acting out some S & M fantasy. I don’t think either one of them have the intelligence or self-awareness required to  understand their dynamic, let alone exploit it for their personal sexual pleasure.

I don’t consider Don to be dominant. I think he’s a bully. And bullies are just cowards. I’m not saying that dating a guy like that can’t be intriguing for awhile. It can. Until, of of course,  it becomes exhausting and destructive. (And those situations always become destructive.) I just wish that some people would stop trying to justify their attraction to guys like Don or Christian Grey as being part of some sexual fantasy.  I think it goes much deeper than that.

I don’t think it’s a desire to be dominated that gets some of the more strong, independent women off. I think the attraction stems from a personal self-loathing or a need to be punished or an addiction to drama.  We’re not turned on by how they dominate us. We’re not even aroused. In those cases, we are not choosing to be dominated. We have no choice at all. We’re stripped of our control rather than willingly surrendering it.

That, to me, is the difference between a “kinky” sub/dom relationship and simply being attracted to assholes. That’s what many of these faux sub/dom situations are: just a woman who likes being treated like shit hiding behind sexual desire and empowerment.

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40 Responses to “Fifty Shades of Douche”

  1. btrflynaia Says:

    Ugh, I just started reading 50 shades of Grey. I don’t get the hype. Christrian seems like a douche. I guess when I was younger I would have fallen for his type. But, now…….hell no! Hopefully, this bood will get better and I will not have wasted the download fee :(

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  2. btrflynaia Says:

    Oops…..guess I should have checked for grammar and spelling errors. 50 Shades of Grey and book.

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    • Jeff Says:

      WE NEED AN EDIT BUTTON. Gawker Media has one that only works fifteen minutes after you post a comment.

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  3. Angeline Says:

    Well done. This was outstanding, Moxie. My frustration with the reviews and assumptions has skyrocketed since the Frisky piece the other day. You can’t paper over an abusive relationship with pretend sub/dom labels.

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  4. The D-man Says:

    I don’t pretend to know enough about the female mind to offer insight, but in my experience a lot of women do like to be dominated in bed… but also to cuddle and whisper sweet nothings afterwards.

    Perhaps related: a lot of women have rape fantasies. Doesn’t mean they actually want to be raped, but in the right (safe) circumstances they get off on the idea of being taken and used like a piece of meat.

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    • Angeline Says:

      Re: dominating/cuddling – One does not rule out the other. Google aftercare. One of the many ways movies and porn get BDSM wrong.

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  5. fuzzilla Says:

    **If you notice, he flames out whenever a client doesn’t immediately take to his campaign suggestions.**

    I did notice. In the last episode when Peggy got snappish with a client I was like “hey, Don pulls that shit all the time and gets away with it, what the hell?” (I love Peggy and I was like “you go, girl,” although I guess it wasn’t a smart way to talk to a client).

    **In my mind, true healthy sub/dom relationships involve a high level of communication and emotional maturity. Those relationships, to me, seem far more psychological than physical. They have to be in order to work. Each partner has control and exercises it when they choose.**

    Absolutely agree. I’ve never had a successful “kinky” relationship (I’ve certainly had successful *relationships*, just never with guys who had a natural inclination for kink). I used to mention being kinky in my dating profile (I know, I know – I’m taking it out. My profile is currently disabled, anyway). It seemed like the guys I met who responded to that were like “wow! You’re into this! I wanna do this and this and this and this…you up for that?” They were all about what they wanted rather than getting to know me, like I was…I dunno, a store where they could cross items off their shopping list rather than a person. I’m not necessarily opposed to a casual thing if the circumstances were favorable enough, but those circumstances must include someone I genuinely like, can communicate with and feel comfortable around. Even if they weren’t rude jerks, necessarily, they were self-centered and terrible listeners. Successful kinky relationships seem like pretty rare finds and a lot of work. So are successful “vanilla” relationships, so…

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    • LaLa Says:

      If you want a man to get to know you for you first, you can’t throw sex in their face like that. I’m glad you decided to take that off your profile.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      I’m not necessarily opposed to a casual thing if the circumstances were favorable enough, but those circumstances must include someone I genuinely like, can communicate with and feel comfortable around

      Then you are not comfortable with a casual thing. A casual thing to men and a casual thing to women are drastically different. The most you can ask for in a casual thing is that the guy not be an asshole. Wanting to meet a guy with whom you’re comfortable and can communicate are not reasonable expectations for a “casual thing.”

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      • fuzzilla Says:

        What I mean by casual is that the expectations can be fairly loose and we can date other people, but I do want mutually agreed upon expectations with I someone I can count on. Particularly if I was gonna push my comfort zone with anything kinky. I’ve had situations like this work out very well.

        If that means I’m not comfortable with casual, then so be it. Maybe fuckbuddy or FWB describes it better, I dunno.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      I’m not necessarily opposed to a casual thing if the circumstances were favorable enough, but those circumstances must include someone I genuinely like, can communicate with and feel comfortable around.
      If that’s what you want, you need to be checking the box for “short term relationship” instead of “casual”.

      “Casual” means I go to your place, you answer the door in lingerie, we boff each others’ brains out for an hour or two, and I leave. I don’t need to know your name, much less whether I like you as a person, can communicate with you or feel comfortable around you. If there’s any pillow talk, it’s just filler while we recover before the next round. And there’s nothing wrong with that; it has its place. The problems come when one person (usually the woman, but sometimes the man) expects it to be more than it is. If that’s not what you really want, don’t do it. Very simple. Don’t tell guys that’s what you want in hopes of upgrading later.

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      • fuzzilla Says:

        >Don’t tell guys that’s what you want in hopes of upgrading later.<

        Oh good God, no! There's a recipe for disaster.

        I never had the "casual sex" box clicked, though I did click "short term relationship." When I say that I mentioned sex in my profile, I mean that I answered some questions and tried to briefly, carefully phrase exactly what I meant. "I'm interested in kink, though inexperienced, and what that means to me is…" I think Moxie's point was that men see something like that and only zoom in on key words and think "blah blah blah, she's easy." So…OK, fine. Deleted. I didn't try to pretend I was something I wasn't, though.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          Yeah, directly mentioning kink (aside from on sites that cater to it, eg. alt.com) is a bad idea; at most, say you’re looking for an “open-minded” guy. If a guy viewing your profile is kinky, he’ll know what that means.

          Also, most folks in the kink community report having better success finding an open-minded vanilla person than specifically looking for someone kinky. So, the codeword does double-duty by also finding people who are likely to be willing to try it. Presumably what you’re looking for is someone to be kinky with you, not just people who’ve already been there and done that. Bonus: you can train an enthusiastic newbie (and what healthy guy isn’t enthusiastic about sex?) to your tastes.

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  6. fuzzilla Says:

    Also any time I’ve heard of a woman fawning over Don Draper, they were simply referring to how hot the actor is. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone attracted to the character, per se. I do think he’s a lot more interesting when he’s fucked up and it makes for better drama, but I want that on TV, not in my personal life.

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  7. Scarlet Says:

    Articles like this are a big part of the reason why I rarely read TF anymore. There is no consistency in the message. The writers of TF often glamorize men involved with abusive relationships.

    It’s very telling to me that JW frequently writes about Michael Fassbender and Don Draper, two men with histories of physical abuse towards women, then gets up in arms about Chris Brown reuniting with Rhianna.

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  8. Karen Says:

    I am going to read the book.. in the lifestyle – hardly do you see real abuse. Its the one’s who like Moxie states are not “true” Dom’s but asshats.

    The one’s who are narcissic stay completely away from the lifestyle and label themselves as something they are not. Its a mode of being able to control someone and prey upon someone who may not really be as aware as they should.

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    • S Says:

      Hey Karen, yeah this Christian Grey person is a complete narcissist parading around as a “dominant”. We’re supposed to believe that this hot, 27 year old billionaire falls hopelessly in love with this mousy, naive, just out of college frump because she’s plucky! And puts him in his place!

      Give me a break.

      The book goes on and on about how they can’t go anywhere without fighting, he tries to put her on a nutrition and exercise plan, she cant have male friends, she can’t go anywhere without a “security detail”, he doesn’t want her to work and through it all, there’s this unnerving thread of “my broken, broken beautiful boy…how can I love him enough to fix him.”

      And you wonder why after the Grammy awards there were hundreds of Twitter posts from women saying “Chris Brown is so hot, he can beat me up anytime he wants…”

      The whole phenomenon is a disgrace and I can’t wait for it to go away.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        So, basically, it’s just as sexist and damaging to women’s ideas of what a healthy relationship as Beauty and the Beast was when they were little girls, i.e. if you love your abuser enough, they’ll treat you like a princess?

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  9. Trish Says:

    As a little bit of backgound, FSoG is based on a story Lewis wrote for a Twlight based fan fictiono website called Twilighted . net.

    The story written from 2009-2010 was called Master of the Universe. Fans could rate the stories, and Lewis won a writers award for the story. She was a fan favorite.

    She then stripped out the Meyer Twlight character references and published her own book called “Fifty Shades of Grey”.

    If you know the Twilight series, then FSoG works beautifully as a Twilight piece. Edward is the headstrong billionare, Bella Swan is the ‘bad *ss’ beauty he falls for. And every other character – James, the Cullen family, etc. etc. – are represented as well.

    On the Twilighted site, after each chapter posting, Lewis would provide she had zero background in anything remotely related to B * D _ S % M (office firewall, sorry).

    I’ve read the articles and I’m reading the postings, and I wonder if people would feel differently if they knew that was the origin of the story. She took a formual that was already wildly popular and accepted, and it works in those confines. On it’s own, folks have differing opinions and perhaps expectations of what Lewis is trying to do. I was shocked when I found out FSoG was Master of the Universe, quite frankly. And I’m hearing the backlash.

    Funny how it’s not widely known what the origin is, unless it has been announced and I missed it somehow…

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  10. Trish Says:

    (okay, 3 postings and finally that one got through the firewall…)

    So my point is, Lewis wrote in the NC – 17 section, and imho did a great job as an amazing Twilight character based story. It follows every character element wonderfully. She added the ‘other stuff’ (firewall policy) because it makes for good fantasy reading if you like your fiction NC -17.

    If you’re a Twilight fan, trust me… you know how this book series ends. If not, you’ll just be picking it apart from a B * D _ S % M (office firewall, sorry) view point.

    As as for Draper and the women who keep running back for more (on the show) (I don’t watch it, sorry…), it does sound like narcisstic abuse, and that the woman are masochistic. This is not FSoG though.

    FSoG SPOILER !!!!!!
    FSoG details his cruel early beginnings and why he is the way he is now. The story unfolds with characters and pain, etc., and how he came to be dominant, etc., needs, desires, and ultimately love and resolution.

    What’s jamming people is the story sounds ludicrous. I guess the reimagining doesn’t work for some, but as a fantasy it works for others. But trust me, as a Twilight story, it was great. That’s the reason she published it.

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    • Angeline Says:

      That this book has ‘Twiblight’ origins is all I needed to know. Thanks for the heads up.

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  11. Mike Says:

    I don’t watch “Mad Men,” nor have I ever heard of the book, so all of this is a little hard to follow. However, I was married for 17 years before becoming divorced. So I had “forgotten” how to date – actually even if I had recalled it would have been useless because times and I have changed. Long story short, it took me not too short of a time to learn that my considerate nature was being misinterpreted for being a “nice guy” or “pushover.” For example, I would always pick a place for a first date in her neighborhood to make it convenient for her, ask her what she wanted to do, and set up a date accordingly. Women, for whatever reason, just don’t respect guys like that. Now, whenever meeting I always pick a (cheap) place closer to me. I’ll text or say “meet me at ____ tomorrow night at 8:00. Wear something sexy.” That’s another thing I do now – always make forward statements of intent. It should go without saying that 2 divorced 40 somethings going on a date that relationship / sex is “on the table,” if you will, but it just does not. As the man, you have to make it clear that in no uncertain terms this is a date and you are going to try to get in her pants. You don’t have to be disgusting about it, just say little things like “I just want to let you know that tonight your goodnight kiss will be on the lips…” or whatever. Also, ditch the complements. Suppose the has beautiful eyes. Don’t you think she hears that from every other guy. Rather, be interested in HER, not her superficial qualities. View it as getting to know someone under your direction instead of trying to impress her to merely have sex. But whatever you do you have to take charge of a woman because if not they will have absolutely no respect for you.

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    • rick Says:

      sad but true, mostly.

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    • Jamie Says:

      I would rather meet a new man in his neighborhood than in mine, or in some neutral area, because I don’t need my neighbors to know my business, and I’ve found that men are far less concerned about my neighbors than about their own. Ick on the taking-charge part though… I have no problem going where the chemistry leads BOTH OF US, and once in a while yes it does happen on the first date, but anyone telling me what to wear or using the word “sex” or “sexy” prior to my feeling a little comfortable with them let alone before meeting them is an automatic kill switch.

      Please… go back to the compliments… so many men are so stingy with them nowadays that a little flattery goes a long way, especially if you mean what you say. At least with me and the 40+ women I know, “You have a beautiful face” is actually far more likely than “I want to kiss your sexy lips” to get what you want

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      • uesider Says:

        How many 40+ year old women do you DATE? Because what your girlfriends tell you and what they actually do is quite different.

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  12. Snowflake Says:

    I think the women attracted to Don are as Moxie said attracted because they like being treated like shit. Other tv shows who portray such male protagonist (pseudo antagonist depending on the story arc) are Tony Soprano, Nucky Thompson (Boardwalk), Clay Morrow, Jax Teller (Sons of Anarchy), Al Swearengen (Deadwood), and this is just my own opinion of this character Lt Maria LaGuerta (Dexter).

    The people attracted to them like being treated like crap. That’s it, and some of these characters are not your typical good lookin GQ-esque type individuals. Its basically the Don Draper character and persona in different scenario’s, narcissitic, ego driven, self serving, chalk full of a dark disturbing past.

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  13. Eliza Says:

    This is addressed to Mike when he wrote:
    However, I was married for 17 years before becoming divorced. So I had “forgotten” how to date – actually even if I had recalled it would have been useless because times and I have changed. Long story short, it took me not too short of a time to learn that my considerate nature was being misinterpreted for being a “nice guy” or “pushover.”

    And I agree with Fuzilla–the egotistical nasty disposition you see on TV, the self-absorbed character is great for drama and ratings, but no level-headed woman that is respectful of those around her–and whom wants to be treated well would want to live with someone like that.

    It’s a shame you “used to be considerate”, and some woman or some “women” have caused you become and behave like some ignorant asshole, who has no regard for women. There is a fine line between being what you term a “push-over”–and being the thoughtful gentleman most, if not all worthwhile women will admire and appreciate. Sorry to hear that your 17 years of marriage have managed to turn you into a callous being.

    Women today, are not going to sell themselves short. Rather, let me re-phrase, decent, intelligent, and attractive (inside and out) women who offer more than their looks are not going to fall all over you–and be extremely inconvenienced not having met you–to drive to you – at your convenience–we have options here. Anyone with a host of great qualities is not going to be that desperate…and yes, we can smell disrespect and wrong intentions a mile away. If anyone made such forward statements of “intent” to me…I wouldn’t give them the time of day. I am worth more than that.

    You want respect? You need to learn how to extend the level of respect you want reciprocated.

    It’s no wonder you are divorced. It’s men like you who give others a negative reputation.

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    • LostSailor Says:

      You’ve completely missed the point, there, Eliza.

      Where did Mike say he had become an ignorant asshole who has no regard for women? Or that he’s a “callous being”? His post-divorce dating experience has been exactly the same as mine and that of nearly every other man who has returned to dating after a long absence. Women often say they want nice, considerate guy, but experience has conclusively shown that they mostly do not respond to those qualities or find them initially attractive.

      It’s not about being an asshole that has no regard for women, it’s about leading in the early stages of a dating relationship, not being apologetic about being a man, and not putting up with bad behavior. Experience says that it works.

      The sense of entitlement, overly high self-regard, and shaming language in your comment indicate that you are precisely the type of woman that forces us to have to behave this way when dating. You’re “worth more than that”? Perhaps not.

      But you are right that you need to learn how to extend the level of respect you want reciprocated…

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      This is addressed to Mike when he wrote:
      Do you not see the “REPLY” button under every comment? It’s difficult to follow your comments when you start a new thread every time–especially since you reply to so many.

      It’s a shame you “used to be considerate”, and some woman or some “women” have caused you become and behave like some ignorant asshole, who has no regard for women.
      That is not what he said at all; he merely talked about women being attracted to confidence and assertiveness, which is what most “nice guys” are rejected for lacking. That you see his comments as being disrespectful or ignorant says much more about you than it does him.

      Sorry to hear that your 17 years of marriage have managed to turn you into a callous being.
      Did you even read his comment? It was only after divorce that he realized showing his considerate nature was actually a disadvantage in the dating scene, despite what women claim.

      The rest is just drivel and follows from the above problems.

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  14. Eliza Says:

    Perhaps when women start getting mistreated, they still hold on – because they remember their partners – for the way that partner used to be, that is, loving, attentive, sweet, thoughtful. But people do change. And abuse usually doesn’t occur overnight–it evolves little by little. And my guess is some women lose sight of how abusive her partner actually is. Abuse is not just physical…it can be emotionally and verbal too. There is something very disturbing about a man or woman that “likes to be abused”. My guess is that that person was mistreated as a child, and that’s all they know. For some, a healthy relationship void of ANY drama at all is quite scary and unchartered territory. Some people look for chaos and feel they need drama and abusive situations. They question when they are being treated “too well”…and basically are waiting for the other shoe to drop. They can’t believe that someone normal, healthy, respectful out there actually exists. yes…it’s such a shame.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      Perhaps when women start getting mistreated, they still hold on – because they remember their partners – for the way that partner used to be, that is, loving, attentive, sweet, thoughtful. But people do change.
      Not really, at least without some life-altering event. If a guy is abusive today, he was probably abusive when you met him; the difference is that you either ignored it because it didn’t fit the fairy tale romance in your head and/or told yourself that your love could change him. The “memories” you speak of never happened anywhere but in that woman’s head.

      And abuse usually doesn’t occur overnight–it evolves little by little. And my guess is some women lose sight of how abusive her partner actually is. Abuse is not just physical…it can be emotionally and verbal too.
      Physical or sexual abuse almost always starts out as verbal and emotional abuse, and it is usually visible (at least to an outsider) practically from day one. That’s why abusers cut off their victims’ contact with outsiders: they need to separate the victim from people who might get them out before it’s too late.

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    • fuzzilla Says:

      >Perhaps when women start getting mistreated, they still hold on – because they remember their partners – for the way that partner used to be, that is, loving, attentive, sweet, thoughtful.<

      Exactly. Abusers often know how to pour on the charm, that's how they hook people. But they're inconsistent because they don't truly care about the other person, they just want a steady stream of attention. The abused partner looks at their behavior and thinks "but…on Monday he loved this behavior from me, then on Wednesday he suddenly hated it." Then they drive themselves mad trying to figure out what *they* did wrong or differently between Monday and Wednesday ("I thought I was in a positive, upbeat mood…was I too loud and abrasive? I thought I dressed well…was it too slutty? I should have known not to trouble him with that rant about my mom…"). They don't examine the abusive partner's behavior, because they believe some fantasy about how perfect the partner is. Or they don't even recognize that they're being treated poorly/see nothing amiss in it (family patterns, etc.). Or maybe they do try to call the abusive partner on his/her behavior but the abusive partner successfully deflects being accountable and spins the situation around and gets the other person to believe everything's their fault. Especially if they've grown close enough that the abusive partner knows what buttons to push to make the other person feel guilty or insecure.

      It's been said here before, the only real power you have in any relationship is the ability to walk away. I for one am happy to drool over Jon Hamm, but I'm beyond done trying to save the Don Draper/Dick Whitmans of the world.

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  15. Kay Says:

    I’ve read the book, all 3 of them, and liked it, Christian is completely screwed, no pun intended, but he had a rough beginning and knows nothing else; Ana herself, is lacking in experience. I find myself more upset with her character than his, after all, she allows him to treat her any way he pleases and she consistently gives in to him. So many times, I closed my iPad in disgust of what she said or did. He is who he is, and like most women, she thought she could change him, which usually leads to a bumpy road of heartache and pain.

    Dumb women fall for the bad boys, the ones who cant stay out of trouble. Smart women falls for the successful/emotionally unavailable ones. We all think we can fix them, solve their problems, change them. Rarely does that happen, in the end, we’re left wondering why we didn’t listen to our guts.

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  16. Eliza Says:

    Yes, the immature, dumb women (who are glutton for punishment) will fall for and put up with men that feel being courteous to a women, creates a sense of self-entitlement–and therefore, don’t go out of their way to leave a favorable impression. While smart, self-assured women will gravitate to men who in spite of their experiences, will always put their best foot forward, and give others the benefit of the doubt (and not have some cavalier attitude based on their past experiences with the wrong women). A man can be assertive without coming across self-serving and egotistical (was there, done that attitude). Same for a woman. A woman can also come across intelligent and self-assured and confident without being some biotch, who rules with some iron hand, or has absurd mile-high standards. There is an even balance, and just because one is kind, and still has manners, and does go out of his/her way for someone else, doesn’t make that person a “pushover” at all. It merely shows that the person has not become cynical of everyone around them, and they are not tainted by their past. They are capable of viewing the dating scene with an open mind and doesn’t allow the past to impact their present and future attitudes towatds the opposite gender. Kindness should not be mistaken for weakness. No need for that. Two separate qualities.

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    • LostSailor Says:

      Wow. Those are really deep platitudes.

      And as CR noted above, you should learn to navigate the highly technical skill of using the “Reply” button.

      A woman can also come across intelligent and self-assured and confident without being some biotch, who rules with some iron hand, or has absurd mile-high standards.

      And, yet, in your reply to Mike, you do. Judgmental, too…

      just because one is kind, and still has manners, and does go out of his/her way for someone else, doesn’t make that person a “pushover” at all.

      Yet Mike’s dating experience, which mirrors that of many other men, show that in the initial stages of dating, that is not true. Once a foundation of attraction has been started, usually several dates in at the least, it may become more true, but starting out, the “pushover” impression is precisely what overly nice behavior, “going out of your way for someone else” results in.

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  17. Eliza Says:

    Verbal or emotional abuser–usually start off with such charming advances, they go all out–in order to fool the woman into thinking they have their best interests at heart, and that they will go above and beyond for her. Yes, this is a front–at the very beginning. An act they can’t sustain for a long period of time. But long enough, to entangle her, and convince her that he’s this great catch. Eventually–little by little, his true side/colors will shine through, and by the time he reveals his true character…she will have undoubtedly be emotionally vested…to the degree where it may be difficult to simply walk away.

    But as someone else here has so eloquently put it. We all the power to walk away from a relationship that is dysfunctional to us.

    “the only real power you have in any relationship is the ability to walk away” (and never look back).

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    • Angeline Says:

      Oy. The evil, ensnaring spider traps the poor little innocent victim. In fact, most abusers (male or female) aren’t so sophisticated or self-aware to have such a concerted campaign, they’re just selfish. And the ‘victim’ is a willing participant, because they are getting something out of the transaction. Either the victim gets healthy, decidedly unlikely in such an unhealthy dynamic, or the abuse escalates to the point that they are afraid, and/or the abuse/benefit ratio no longer works.

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  18. Mark Says:

    Don…Mad Men. Great show. Really entertaining on a number of levels.

    But here is the thing: It’s a show. Sure, Matt Weiner does a great job of writing and the cast is stellar. But in the end it’s a show. Another poster made the distinction of the individual actors vs. the character they portray. Don’t blur the two. They are separate and distinct. Keep it that way.

    Real life vs a profile is along similar lines. Realistic notions vs. over idealized notions. Keep grounded.

    ON another note: It increasingly seems that a lot of replies or responses to replies are on the edgy edge edge of being ad hominem replies. People may agree, they may disagree, but try not to be disagreeable. Gotta wonder, how many people who give responses have something along the lines of …laid back, love new things, etc. compare and contrast.

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  19. Badger Says:

    Oh for God’s sake, it’s a fucking TV show!

    And Megan is plenty childish herself.

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  20. Badger Says:

    True to my predictions, Mad Men has picked up where Sex And The City left off in providing young women with unrealistic models of men and relationships for them to inappropriately internalize.

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