Just Sleep With Him Already!

May 3rd, 2012

Casual sex, Dating, Servicey!, Sex

I’ve gone on four dates with a very nice guy. We haven’t had sex yet, just making out and going on very date-like dates. Since I’m not in a relationship and I don’t have a “boyfriend,” is it okay to hookup with my f*** buddy in the meantime? I’m having a moral dilemma. – Nerve Confessions

When men and women do this, are they really seeking sex, or are they just afraid to lose their air bag or prove to themselves that they’re not totally into whomever they’re dating?

I mean, if it’s just about getting off, then we can do that to ourselves. So are situations like this really about sexual gratification? Or is it just our way to demonstrating (in our minds, at least)  to the person we are dating and possibly falling for that we don’t need them?

Dating someone knew can be all kinds of scary for many people. There’s so much we don’t know and there is no guarantee. Are they dating someone else? Do they feel the same way? Is this person going to end up dumping me? Maybe that’s why we reach out to our f*** buddies in these situations? To regain some sense of control or prevent us from getting too invested?

How would you react if you found out, accidentally or intentionally, that the person you are dating had sex with an FWB while dating you and before they had sex with you?

 

End of the fifth date. Both of us in our mid-30s. Making out, clothes are coming off. We’re both naked to the waist and girl says to me, “I’m really attracted to you, you really turn me on, but I want to get to know you better before we have sex.” Guys, your reaction? – Nerve Confession

Again, if the woman really didn’t want to have sex with the guy, then why is she stripping off her clothes and fooling around with him? Forget the words being said and pay attention to the actions. This woman “wants to get to know him better” before having sex. But she’s being sexual with him. Am I the only one who has an “in for a dime, in for a dollar” mentality to getting physical? Whether it’s second base or a home run, isn’t it pretty much all the same?

To me, this feels like a test. It’s not that she doesn’t want to have sex. It’s that she wants to gauge how interested the guy is in her. If he takes her out again then he’s not just interested in sex.

The real question is…does this test actually work? Is it more successful than not? Bigger question…would a woman really respect a guy who allowed her to blue ball him like this?

 

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61 Responses to “Just Sleep With Him Already!”

  1. DS Says:

    Both these stories suggest the desire to willfully sabotage a good thing just because it’ll provide a sense of security from the risks associated with being hurt. It’s just and endless cycle and that is why we will all be single and bitter well into our 60s.

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  2. Jeff Says:

    Finding out she put me off for whatever reason, then goes on to bang her fuck buddy for whatever the reason would be a total turn off. I would find the whole scene distasteful, view her as the damaged goods that she is & have nothing to do with her.. NEXT QUESTION?

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  3. Selena Says:

    How would you react if you found out, accidentally or intentionally, that the person you are dating had sex with an FWB while dating you and before they had sex with you?

    When I’ve found out a guy was sleeping with someone when we were first getting to know each other, the only thing I wanted to know was – is it over? I’ve had lovers who were dating someone casually before we got together, but not an FWB situation. I’m not sure how cool I would be with a guy who insisted on maintaining a friendship with an FWB – there’s an element of “waiting in the wings” to such a relationship that would put me off being his girlfriend.

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    • Jeff Says:

      Why would you even care if it was over? Does it not say something about the persons character. Think about it: They are dating you & the thought has not occurred to them that you are perhaps special & they best not mess this up? When I’m entertaining a new love interest if I am there after 3 dates I’m interested, excitement is building, hopefully on both parts. Having sex with another party takes away or distracts my energies that should be focused on you. We are human beings with brains & feelings. If it’s a piece of flesh one seeks for comfort I suggest trying warm liver. Place some value upon yourself. Next guy you feel compelled to ask, “Is it over?” present him with a parting gift of a pound or 2 & get out of Dodge.

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      • Selena Says:

        Jeff,
        My history is dating one person at a time. And while that might be my preference, I KNOW it isn’t everyone’s. If I accept a date, several dates, with someone it’s with the intention of getting to know him. I don’t consider it my business to ask a virtual stranger if they are having sex with someone – especially, if I am NOT having sex with him myself.

        The lovers who told me they were dating (had sex with) someone at the time we met, did so AFTER they had decided they wanted me, that there was something special between US. WE had spent enough time together – with/without sex – to feel that connection to each other. Saying “So that’s over then?” was merely a confirmation. Get it?

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        • Jamie Says:

          How would you find out if you didn’t ask? And why would you ask? You will either get a yes and maybe be disappointed, or a no and maybe be suspicious. No good can come from this line of questioning. Unless the person made a promise to me, it’s not my business. If I found out accidentally (and this goes for boyfriend/husband/whatever), I’d be more upset that he was indiscreet enough to let other people know and let it get back to me than that he indulged his raging hormones. That’s just stupid and I have no tolerance for stupid (andthatswhyI’mstillsingle!).

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          • Selena Says:

            Jamie,
            I’ve had boyfriends – after a relationship was established and they WERE my boyfriend – sometimes tell me about who they were dating before/around the time we met. Never a Q & A session, just casual convo’s that came up once it was clear we were exclusive.

            What are you talking about?

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            • Jamie Says:

              Selena, you started this off by saying you would ask them “Is it over?” and you repeated that you asked this for “confirmation.” Now you say you don’t find out about their stuff until it’s clear you are exclusive. If it’s clear you’re exclusive, then why do you have to ask whether it’s over or get confirmation? Your 2 statements are mutually contradictory. Either it’s clear (no need to ask) or it’s not clear (and you’re asking).

              These conversations about timelines have never been known to go anywhere good. Just like any conversation where reassurance is sought, there is no spoken word that can make everything all right forever after. If you don’t trust his activities, why would you trust his words? It’s just asking to have your intelligence insulted.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      I’m not sure how cool I would be with a guy who insisted on maintaining a friendship with an FWB – there’s an element of “waiting in the wings” to such a relationship that would put me off being his girlfriend.
      If they’re really friends, then they can and will go back to being friends without benefits when one of them gets serious with someone else; that’s how it works. There is no “waiting in the wings”; if they wanted a romantic relationship, presumably they’d already have one and you wouldn’t be in the picture at all.

      The main concern comes when they’re not really friends; one of them (usually the woman) wants a relationship but the other (usually the man) doesn’t, so the former puts up with the FWB situation in hopes they can upgrade to a real relationship. However, it’s not the former person you should be worried about; they’ve already had their shot and missed. What you should worry about is the character of the latter person for taking advantage of the former’s feelings for their own benefit. Real friends don’t do that.

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      • Selena Says:

        I don’t worry about it at all CR. I haven’t dated men who’ve had “friendships” like that they expected to continue after they are in a serious relationship.

        Hypothetically, if I found myself dating a man who wanted to keep a friendship with someone who was his “as needed” sex partner, *I* wouldn’t be interested in getting serious with him.
        Because real friends don’t do that.

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        • The D-man Says:

          Meh. I have an ex FWB that I consider to be a friend. She periodically asks me for advice in her dating adventures.

          That said, we live 1,000 miles away from each other, so it’s not like we’ll bump into each other serendipitously or get too drunk and flirty at happy hour.

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  4. Selena Says:

    “Am I the only one who has an “in for a dime, in for a dollar” mentality to getting physical? Whether it’s second base or a home run, isn’t it pretty much all the same?”

    You are not the only one.

    “Rounding the bases” is for teenage virgins. I expect adults to understand foreplay is called that for a reason. The purpose is to arouse both parties for intercourse. To become aroused and then denied sex is very frustrating. A man or woman who does this is immature and/or trying to use sex in some kind of power play. If someone doesn’t want to have sex, stick to hand holding and light kissing to express affection.

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    • Badger Says:

      I totally agree. Adding to it, people who strip to their underwear and then put the brakes on are really immature. Hmm, you want to take your clothes and bra off, but you’re not interested in sex? Is this like the playing-house version of sex for you, the frying pan and T-bone steak are plastic but you kind of flip the synthetic pancake a few times and feel like you’re slaving over the hot stove? Um yeah, why don’t you put your shit back on and come back when you have some semblance of an idea what you actually are doing with me.

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      • Thinker Says:

        Question is was the guy actually paying for all the 4 dates, or were they taking turns at paying the bill?

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7

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    • Max Says:

      Beyond immature it’s acually a violation.It also bad for the lady because it puts her in danger of being raped. Her initial violation could be met with an even worse one for her…..

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        It’s stupid, risky, immature and blatantly manipulative, but it’s not a “violation”. Get over yourself.

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  5. Badger Says:

    1. Forgive me, but doesn’t this sound like a couple of posts ago where a guy said “it’s SOOOO hard to juggle dating multiple women” to brag about his “success?” This is a woman telegraphing “I have SO many options to get some dick!” Which for most women of normal weight is not a difficult enterprise.

    2. So you’re going to give it away for free to a guy who has no investment in you, and make the “nice guy” with the “date-like dates” wait. I’ve read of, and heard from women’s mouths directly, the paradigm that “if I think it’s a potential relationship I’ll make him wait, but if he’s not boyfriend material I’ll F him quicker.” After lots of time hanging around Susan Walsh’s blog, I don’t think women understand how backwards this sounds to guys, and what a perverse incentive it is to create more wannabe players and fewer guys who advertise as boyfriend material. Women give a song and dance about this about “well I think you’re really special, it didn’t really mean anything with those other guys” with hovers between surreal and insulting.

    3. It’s clear to me that part of the reason a woman will “take it slow” is if she thinks she’ll get another shot at you (i.e. another date) – another perverse incentive to mess with her head and make her think she might not see you again, even if that’s not true. I saw a woman earlier this year who stopped me at (IIRC) second base, saying “they’ll be plenty of time for that later,” as if we were already in a LTR. I was honestly pretty turned off by that comment, her expecting me to stick around until she felt I was worthy to cop a feel. I think I saw her once more, my heart just wasn’t in it after she let on that she assumed I was in for the long haul after four dates.

    4. ““I’m really attracted to you, you really turn me on, but I want to get to know you better before we have sex.” Guys, your reaction?”

    One of a few things:

    -Shit test
    -Cocktease
    -A woman so confused in her own head she doesn’t know what she wants and is probably never going to be “ready.” Sometimes she’ll try to use alcohol or the man’s dominance to shepherd her through it.

    Anyone who’s been sexually active (esp women) know that sex has an element of scary to it, like mountain biking or going off the high dive. There’s going to be some butterflies. My track coach used to tell us “if you don’t have some butterflies you’re not ready to race.” This whole idea you’re going to wake up one day and be “I’m READY to sleep with him!” is kind of silly, most of us are going to have at least some form of nerves when it comes to a new partner.

    5. “does this test actually work?”

    Here is the danger for women doing this…it works in transitioning the woman into a pump-and-dump candidate. Because she herself has turned herself into a “prize” to be won, the man will do likewise – whereas before she was a woman he was getting to know, she has made herself an obstacle, a challenge, he’ll try to meet the challenge and then find something else to occupy his mind.

    Finally, just f’ing F them already:
    http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sea/561877622.html

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  6. Crotch Rocket Says:

    I’ve gone on four dates with a very nice guy. We haven’t had sex yet, … is it okay to hookup with my f*** buddy in the meantime?
    Here we have, ladies, a perfect example of why being called a “nice guy” is referred to as the Kiss of Death: she had several dates with a “very nice guy”, yet when she’s horny, it apparently doesn’t even occur to her to have sex with him; she looks elsewhere instead.

    if it’s just about getting off, then we can do that to ourselves.
    I don’t know how it is for women, but for me at least, there is no comparison between the two.

    How would you react if … the person you are dating [did what you are planning on doing]?
    This is a very basic skill called empathy. It is a sad commentary on our culture that millions of adults need to be taught (or at least reminded of) this. Whatever happened to the Golden Rule?

    We’re both naked to the waist and girl says to me, “I’m really attracted to you, you really turn me on, but I want to get to know you better before we have sex.” Guys, your reaction?
    Sorry, but the time for getting to know each other better was before she started taking her clothes off. I’d try to distract her and change her mind, but either way I’m never seeing her again.

    Am I the only one who has an “in for a dime, in for a dollar” mentality to getting physical? Whether it’s second base or a home run, isn’t it pretty much all the same?
    It’s obviously not all the same, but I’m a firm believer in not starting something I don’t intend to finish–and I expect the same from women. If you don’t want (“aren’t ready”) to have sex with me, certainly don’t start taking your clothes off. Those games were barely tolerable in high school; we’re adults now.

    If he takes her out again then he’s not just interested in sex. …does this test actually work?
    Not at all. It will screen out the guys with even a modicum of self-respect, who might have actually been interested in more before she pulled this stupid stunt. OTOH, the guys who are only interested in sex will figure, even if their game failed them this time, she’s probably a lock for next time–after they jump through this hoop to “prove” how interested they are. So, the test does exactly the opposite of what she thinks it does–and that’s why women who get played are constantly testing men, because their stupid tests never work and they keep hoping they’ll eventually find one that does.

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    • India Says:

      You may be missing the point with the “nice guy” comment. The op has spent a total of 6 hrs max with her new dating interest (across four dates). Maye shocking to some, but for many this is my nearly enough time for jumping in the sak with. Her fwb, on the other hand, maybe someone whom she has known for years and build an deep understand around expectations post sex. She is not delaying sex because of the classic “nice guy” syndrome. She simply does not know him well enough and may not want to muddy the situation by getting naked.

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    • VJ Says:

      What CR said. And yes folks, this is why there are fewer & fewer self proclaimed ‘nice guys’ left. They’ve been cruelly, massively and systematically selected against in the Darwinian struggle for mates. It’s as simple as that. Many women are otherwise ‘getting their needs met’ with other males elsewhere, while holding a possible ‘nice’ ‘real romantic interest’ at bay, for whatever convoluted reasons. This goes way beyond HS games, where naive teens have to carefully navigate unfamiliar and highly fraught new terrain. It’s all about otherwise ‘mature adults’ being constantly yes, ‘shit-tested’, again for something one party is already ‘getting’ but the ‘nice guy’ may not be. More silly games needlessly sprung at the last minute, for whatever personal ‘power’ advantage. A really poor start to any ‘mature’ relationship in this day and age. Or even during the 1950′s actually. Stupid then as now, but still somehow a fairly common ploy.

      Why anyone expects this scenario to be ‘useful’ or ‘desirable’ somehow is simply beyond comprehension. Why bother dating? Why bother putting up with such constant level of BS? This is why you’re still single? Sure! Why ask why? You’re getting your needs met elsewhere. The ‘nice guy’ is just there for extra entertainment, to see how far you might push them before they run/break or blow up from frustration. Rinse & repeat, and then wonder about the relative ‘scarcity’ of those otherwise nice guys years later. Geez, it’s almost a cliche enough to wonder if they’re [Nerve] just making up the letter from ‘composites’ of thousands too! Cheers, ‘VJ’

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      • India Says:

        Oh Jesus with the wow is me! This op aside, 99.9 percent of the woman in my life are dating or in long term relationship with the nice guy. None of them are with the bill Clinton, tiger woods types. If you measure success in dating by getting laid, I feel sorry for you because that is for horny 14 year olds. I you measure success by having a woman in your life who cares and adores you, the nice guy has also done better in my experience. If you are surrounded by abusive, user woman who take advantage men, then seriously open your eyes and upgrade your social circle.
        The op has not slept with the “great guy” because they have only known each other for four dates and she does not want to ruin a good thing – remember that the measure of success in dating is not just about getting laid, but also getting laid by someone you love and care about. The most likely scenario is that the fwb has asked her for a hook up, and If you read the post, she does not want to say yes because she is developing real feelings for the dating interest.
        The issue with every nice guy who claims to finish last is that they are not looking for nice women. The most common whine I get is “oh why can’t I get the 10 who looks like a model” or “why am I not getting banged 5 fives a weekend by the hottest girl in the club.” that is because you are finding the wrong target audience.

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        • uesider Says:

          Why would sex “ruin a good thing?”

          The subtext of your post is that the “nice guy” should be a doormat and wait for sex, in the meantime she wants to sleep with the “bad boy” who she uses for occasional sex. This behavior is what turns “nice guys” into cads.

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          • Jamie Says:

            I think the thought (whether truth or not) is more like… when women give it up too fast, the guy will *never* see us as anything but someone to have sex with. If we are considering having sex with someone who seems like he could be a good life partner, we don’t want to screw that up by some behavior that makes him shunt us over to the good-enough-to-bang-but-not-to-introduce-to-the family category. (I am pretty sure I have made this mistake before, more than once.)

            Maybe some women are being opportunistic in your experience, but it’s not a universal female trait.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          I you measure success by having a woman in your life who cares and adores you, the nice guy has also done better in my experience.
          I have plenty of women in my life that care about me; they’re called friends and family. And if I were a “nice guy”, i.e. doormat, as I used to be, that would still be the case. The difference is that, by not being a doormat, I also get laid. You may consider having a healthy sex drive to be juvenile, but sex is part of being an adult and having adult relationships.

          The op has not slept with the “great guy” because … she does not want to ruin a good thing
          If what they have really is a “good thing”, then sex will only make it better–not “ruin” it. This is one of the lies women tell themselves to justify not sleeping with the nice guys they should settle down with and, instead, sleep with the bad boys they should be running away from.

          the measure of success in dating is not just about getting laid, but also getting laid by someone you love and care about.
          That is your measure of success; others may disagree. And, even if one agrees, that doesn’t necessarily mean they will instantly find it. Should they be celibate until they do? What if that choice means they don’t meet the right person, or the right person never knows they’re interested or gives up on them? Sounds like all downside to me.

          nice guy who claims to finish last is that they are not looking for nice women.
          Yes, they are, in most cases. That doesn’t mean the nice women ever give them a chance, though; they’re busy chasing after the “bad boys”, i.e. men who aren’t doormats.

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  7. Badger Says:

    “If he takes her out again then he’s not just interested in sex”

    The extraneous date is called the “I’m not a slut date.” It can be less of a shit test and more of a self-validation exercise for women who have difficulty owning their sexuality.

    Two can play at this game though. If I get the impression a woman is fishing for not-a-slut validation that way, I pull a takeaway, making the next date a bit more difficult to nail down, to see if SHE’S really interested. I’m not going to let her get into a comfort cycle where she thinks I’ll just keep trying until she decides to say yes.

    Good God, if only women just understood that the best way to get a guy to come back for another date is to F his brains out.

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  8. The D-man Says:

    “I’m really attracted to you, you really turn me on, but I want to get to know you better before we have sex.”

    This scenario is right out of the PUA case studies book. Google “overcoming LMR” and “anti-slut defense.”

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  9. jesse Says:

    When I read this, the first thing I thought of was that the woman WAS becomng emotionally involved with the new beau, and as a way of “straightening up” her life before going monogamous with this new fellow, wanted to plot to leave the FWB by having have “good bye” sex with him. I mean, isn’t that the way women do it?

    For the other scenario, well, the same sort of thing happened to me. Making out lead to her being naked in the back of my car — we were (happily!) out of control. But in a moment of clarity, I asked myself “Do I really want to get involved with this woman?

    The answer was no. I made a joke about how ridiculous this would look if someone stumbled by, so we stopped, got dressed, kissed and parted. Sometimes your hormones write checks your soul won’t cash.

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  10. Ultra Violet Says:

    Well in this specific case, anyone with an FWB doesn’t really have much moral ground for any dilemma.

    But in general, i think its sad that sex is viewed as nothing more significant than sharing a coffee. And women are expected to provide it ASAP because what possible good reason could she have not too?? yuk… .That IS damaged goods thinking, not liberated free women. If the best a woman can hope for is to keep him coming back for sex for a month or two in exchange for some attention, then ATWYS is correct.

    But emotionally and spiritually (not churchy-religiosity), theres alot more to it than that, and though some of the costs normally born by women for thousands of years (pregancy, STDs, emotional attachment from the 10 day oxytocin effect, children with no father, etheric cording attachment FOR LIFE to all men she has had sex with, etc..) have been eliminatd and reduced, some have not.

    Who started this new tradition that 3rd date means your open for business or the gig is up. Any man thinking that way would not have stayed long after getting the sex anyway. We are just fooling the women into thinking MAYBE they will get a relationship for a few weeks or months if they put out. Whats in it for her ? Most women DO want a relationship, not 2 or 3 random hookups a week, which often seems to be a proud achievement for ATWYS. Its not a SHIT test, its a bare minimum hold off til you get a feel for who he really is… if you can… as theres alot of intentional predation going on, on the part of the men. Just because there are predators, doesnt mean we should all turn ourselves into food for them.

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    • Jamie Says:

      Thank you for mentioning the emotional attachment. I have never been one to hold off, but the flip side is that I get hurt more often than if I had no sex at all and just remained frustrated physically in addition to the emotional frustration.

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  11. fuzzilla Says:

    I am guilty of the FWB-as-emergency-exit/air bag thing. So far I haven’t regretted it, because the guys I was dating weren’t worth giving him up for. But yeah – “that’s why you’re single”? *raises hand* That’s why I’m not that motivated to deal with all the BS of dating and make a sincere effort.

    >How would you react if you found out, accidentally or intentionally, that the person you are dating had sex with an FWB while dating you and before they had sex with you?<

    It would depend on the guy/situation. Obviously I'd have no leg to stand on to bitch about it if I'm doing the same thing. I would just assume it's none of my business unless we had a talk about commitment or escalating things. Until then, if the answer to the question "am I getting mine, is this enjoyable for me?" is yes, then I'd just leave it at that. It's only really a problem or a conflict of interest if people are promising things they don't mean or denying hurt or deepening feelings to seem "cool"/low maintenance.

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    • fuzzilla Says:

      I don’t make the guy I’m dating/hoping has relationship potential wait forever for sex, though. My point was that I don’t feel guilty about juggling because – hey, unless terms are specifically spelled out, he could be out wherever/with whomever when I’m not around. While I don’t feel guilty about it, per se, I do think the juggling might be a bit sabotage-y and keep me at an emotional remove (this – this is the main reason for me why an FWB is better than masturbation. I value that emotional remove and the control I feel it gives me, rightly or wrongly).

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  12. Buddy Says:

    If she has a desire to visit her fu** buddy while dating a nice guy then she should just go ahead to visit her fu** buddy. She would not be asking this question if she really liked this new guy and considered him as a long term partner.

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  13. Kurt Says:

    What an awful woman – she’s the type of women who cause men to become jaded. If she is really looking for a relationship, why is she sleeping with some dude who isn’t even dating her? Is she a total slut? She’ll sleep with that guy whom she isn’t dating, yet wants to take things at a glacier’s pace with the new guy. At some point that new guy is going to be frustrated and if he ever finds out what she is doing, that will be the end of it.

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  14. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    So you’re going to give it away for free to a guy who has no investment in you, and make the “nice guy” with the “date-like dates” wait. I’ve read of, and heard from women’s mouths directly, the paradigm that “if I think it’s a potential relationship I’ll make him wait, but if he’s not boyfriend material I’ll F him quicker.” – Badger

    This is something I’ve heard women say on blogs and in real life but, in my personal experience, it’s not how women behave. It’s generally a myth that women “use” some men just for sex – I believe it is false bravado and rationalization for dating a man out of her league. In my experience, almost all women I date would prefer a relationship with me, even the ones that sleep with me on the first date. I’m defeinitely “serious boyfriend material” moreso than “hot, one-night stand guy” and most women I date don’t make me wait for sex.

    At the risk of being the chronic dissenter, I also disagree with the “nice guy” myth. The “friend zone” is a completely foreign concept to me. I have or have had sexual relations or, at least, a sexual tension,, with almost every woman I know. And, I’m a very nice guy. In the first few dates, I’m always polite, I always pay, always hold doors, always respectful, always pay attention, never talk on my cell phone,etc. I don’t read PUA or deliberately insult or act mean towards people. I concede that my personality (as some may have noticed) is somewhat cold and detatched and I’m generally not overly complimentary and I don’t go to great lengths or bend-over-backwards trying to please people – so, there may be a “natural” aspect to my personality. But, I am definitely “nice.” In fact, I’m outwardly nice even when throwing someone under a bus.

    So, I think there needs to be a better explanation for the nice guy syndrome. You can be very nice and be very succesful. It’s not that you’re “too nice” as much as you’re “too available.” Or, as some others have suggested, YOU ARE DATING OUT OF YOUR LEAGUE. Solution? Stop doing that.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      The friend zone excuse is used to put the blame back on the person doing the rejecting.

      The women who say they aren’t attracted to a guy because he’s too nice is either being kind or she has issues and would be far more trouble than she’s worth.

      What annoys me is this constant jibber jabber about how women don’t want nice , decent guys. It’s ridiculous. Of course we do.

      So like DMN said, either the guys constantly being “friendzoned” are either shooting out of their league, not terribly attractive or have a bad personality. This complaint is a banal as the “men are all shallow” complaint. The only women who complain about how shallow men are are the ones batting out of their league, are older or are overweight/unattractive. You never hear an attractive, fit woman of 28 or 32 complaining about how shallow men are. They might begin to use this complaint at 35 or 37, of course.

      Both of these complaints are used to pin the blame on the opposite gender for why they’ve either pissed away all their opportunities or refuse to accept what their actual audience is.

      It’s generally a myth that women “use” some men just for sex – I believe it is false bravado and rationalization for dating a man out of her league.

      Absolutely. The f*** buddy is kept around more for bragging rights than anything else. The woman either makes it sound like she “fucks like a man” and kicks him out after OR she insists that the guy is a real friend who truly cares for her well being. If that were the case, they’d be dating.

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      • Eliza Says:

        Bragging rights? Why in the wolrd would a woman “brag” about f****ing like a man? we are women. We are emotional beings. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. What a shame…that society has made some women behave like this, to a point where women actually think by having a FWB arrangement–they actually have benefits! What benefit is there? In my honest opinion, get yourself a great vibrator and call it a day. There–very bluntly said. Because the bottom line is, with a FWB there is no emotional connection, it’s use and be used. So–may as well get yourself an electronic device. We all have needs here. We are all adults.

        And for the men reading this, than are actually open-minded and reasonable enough to accept this: Women do Want a Nice Guy. You can be nice, yet interesting, fun and exciting. A mature, intelligent woman that is free of drama, and want’s to be with a drama-free man will go for the nice, grounded, level-headed man, not the so-called “bad boy”. A person that brings a lot to the table, has a full, satisfying life, and is mature, doesn’t have time for head games which the typical “bad boy” will inject into your life. No time for the B.S. And women in their right mind, who have dated enough, and done that–are well over it. If women are “decent”, they want a “decent” man and look to be treated decently, and will treat the man in the lives very well. End of story.

        And yes, the OP doesn’t want to damage a potential opportunity to be with someone of substance by jumping into a sexual arrangement after the 4th date! It’s a shame she needs a FWB. And can’t simply enjoy the company of her new beau for the time being.

        Again…this is where a good vibrator comes handy. Just saying.

        Not rocket science. It’s when you are interracting with damaged men and women, where you have all the little mind games, and bad boy/nice boy complexes going on. Such a shame.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        she insists that the guy is a real friend who truly cares for her well being. If that were the case, they’d be dating.
        Two people may get along well as friends and lovers, but that doesn’t mean they’re able to make a romantic relationship work. Several of my FWBs have been exes; we didn’t work as a couple, but we did work in other areas. The others would have been exes in short order; the incompatibility was so obvious that neither of us was willing to try. That we enjoy having sex with someone we already know is good in the sack doesn’t mean we don’t care about each other; first and foremost, we’re friends.

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        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          I agree but it’s nitpicky. The point is, as I think you made above too, a woman may tolerate a FWB situation but, all else equal, she would prefer to be in an exclusive committed relationship with that person. She is in a FWB situation, in general, because that’s all the man is willing to give. That is my experience, though I’m sure there are exceptions.

          I don’t think its about “bragging” so much as covering up for what’s really going on. She pretends the FWB is her preference. Or, she pretends that the one night stand was “her idea” because the guy wasn’t suitable for a LTR. That, in my educated opinion, is what’s going on.

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          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            I don’t think its about “bragging” so much as covering up for what’s really going on.

            Agreed. We just talked the other day about women who upfront state that they knew the guy was a jerk but they went out with them anyway because they had some non-existent hobby in common or out of curiosity. Then when the guy inevitably blows her off or she senses that he’s not interested in her, she calls back to that initial impression and cites that as why she decided not to go out with him

            It’s the same with FWB or F*** Buddy relationships. Women love to say how they decided over appetizers that the guy wasn’t relationship material and so that’s why they slept with them. Then when the guy doesn’t call again they’re all flabbergasted. Words don’t match the actions.

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            • Eliza Says:

              Words don’t match the actions, because the bottom line – is ALL women want to feel special. And being used and tossed aside is a horrible feeling, even from men we don’t necessarily want a long-term relationship with.

              It’s human nature to want to feel special and sought after. Especially after getting intimate with someone. That’s the feedback I get from discussions with other women.

              When someone goes on and on about how someone doesn’t matter–it’s a way of self-protecting themselves. Nothing wrong with that. Being vulnerable is scary, and people seek to protect themselves in their own ways.

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              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                When someone goes on and on about how someone doesn’t matter–it’s a way of self-protecting themselves

                Who are you talking to? Yourself or everybody else? Because you’ve been literally saying the same thing over and over and over for almost 2 hours now.

                Want to know what I think? I don’t think you get propositioned at all. I don’t think many men try and sleep with you. And you’re now trying to cover up your own insecurity and likely your own shame for falling for the same game JeS fell for by repeating over and over how dehumanizing casual sex is. I’m sure these other women you refer to are all in the same boat. Marginally attractive women who secretly wish a man desired them enough to fuck them senseless. Since the only men willing to do that are guys like the loser in the rental apartment with the overflowing cat box, you decide to flip the script and make it about how you have far too much dignity to spread your legs for just *any* man.

                Whatever.

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  15. M Says:

    But she’s being sexual with him. Am I the only one who has an “in for a dime, in for a dollar” mentality to getting physical? Whether it’s second base or a home run, isn’t it pretty much all the same?

    Whether its second base or a home run, isnt it pretty much all the same?
    Whether its first base or a home run, isnt it pretty much all the same?
    Whether its a first date or a home run, isnt it pretty much all the same?

    Its just a slippery slope. You have to have boundaries and these milestones need to mean something. Otherwise, its gets more difficult for all involved. As a guy, if I ask a girl out, she is less likely to say yes now because of this, because she knows there is an increasingly better chance the date will end in sex. Even if I have no plans for that to happen, she doesnt know that, so it doesnt help lower the pressure on her. So for her to say yes, she has to like me more. Yes, there is a difference between these. Its not all the same. This hurts everyone’s chances. As a guy, the girl is less likely to agree to go out with me. For a girl, she is now more likely to miss out on a guy who is exactly what she’s looking for (whatever that is) if that guy is not able to immediately convey that to her, and lets face it, it takes time to get to know someone, even just a little.

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    • Eliza Says:

      I fully agree with M. It really is such a shame, that the dating arena has created this type of environment and these types of expectations on women. And it’s a shame, that because of this, there are some great guys out there, that actually do have good intentions and can be and want to be gentleman and want to truly get to know the woman, other than for physical gratification. Yet they are unable to…why? because so many women have their guard up–and rightfully so. Getting to know someone – innerwise, does take some time. As you get older, if you are a great listener and communicator, getting to know someone should take less time, but nonetheless, it does require a level of attention and patience, and time. Especially when two people are busy juggling work and other commitments. They don’t see each other initially everyday or every other day–and you don’t see how that person is under pressure or in different situations. But there seems to be such an emphasis on the physical in the dating scene. Yes, there needs to be that “chemistry”–understood. But what ever happened to “courtship” and just having fun dating each other, and getting to know each other’s personality? Why the urgency to hop into the sack?

      And yes, after having sex…a lot changes. So to those women who do hold off, until they feel comfortable and especially because they actually like a fellow, good for them! They are ladies, and want to be treated as such.

      It’s women who give it away for free (as with FWB arrangements), or use it as a powerplay — that give sincere women a bad name.

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      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Are you for real? Weren’t you the one complaining that men didn’t know how to make better conversation and weren’t sociable.enough for you?? Its amazing how open minded you arewhen it comes to pointing out everyone else’s limitations but completely blind to your own.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        And yes, after having sex…a lot changes.
        The only thing that changes after sex is an immature woman’s expectations.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      You have to have boundaries and these milestones need to mean something.
      What milestones? Are you putting together a scrapbook and need to fill a page for “M and Q’s first under-the-sweater grope”? Foreplay is not a milestone; it is a prelude to the main event. You wouldn’t go to a steakhouse, order a salad, and leave: the salad is only there to fill time (and cleanse your palate) while the steak is cooked.

      As a guy, if I ask a girl out, she is less likely to say yes now because of this, because she knows there is an increasingly better chance the date will end in sex. Even if I have no plans for that to happen, she doesnt know that, so it doesnt help lower the pressure on her.
      Seriously, you’re really a guy? Good grief. WTF are you on a date with her if you don’t want it to end in sex? And, outside of after-school specials targeted at teenagers, the guy isn’t the one putting the pressure on the gal: it’s the competitive pressure from other women.

      So for her to say yes, she has to like me more.
      No, for her to say yes, all she needs is to want free meals, drinks and/or attention. She is welcome to turn down your physical advances if she’s not interested.

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  16. Brian Says:

    I agree with “in for a dime, in for a dollar”. If I was the guy in that situation I would think I was being tested in a really inappropriate way and head for the hills.

    As far as the FWB thing. Why should that relationship have to shift when you are only dating casually. I’d be fine with it until a commitment happened. It seems a lot of people like to make assumptions about exclusivity. If it’s what you need, say so. You may loose out on an opportunity to be miserable with someone who clearly isn’t right for you. Not so bad, is it?

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  17. Eliza Says:

    I would rather come clean and be direct as to what my expectations and needs are – with someone–but probably not by date 4. I am still trying to get acquainted and decide whether this is someone that is right for me or not. Just because there is a physical connection does NOT mean you are right for each other. Lesson learned here. Chemistry is key–but not the only factor–for a “relationship”. It is, however, the ONLY factor in a FWB arrangement. And if that’s all a woman is looking for – WHILE she meets someone nice, she has her head screwed on wrong. My opinion. Very odd. Again, invest in a vibrator ladies! lol.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      Chemistry is …, however, the ONLY factor in a FWB arrangement.
      If so, then it’s not an FWB arrangement. The F stands for “friends”, not “fucking”.

      invest in a vibrator ladies!
      If fucking a friend, i.e. a real person you simply don’t have romantic feelings for, dehumanizes sex, then what does fucking an inanimate object do?

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      • Eliza Says:

        Anyone that is a friend to you–wouldn’t “Fuck” you or “fuck you over”.

        Fucking an inanimate object – satisfies a man’s or woman’s need for a “physical need”. That simple. No human counterpart required. Nobody gets hurt.

        But that’s my opinion.

        Friends with Benefits. Who benefits? The person that has zero feelings. Sorry–women are emotional beings. They can’t reinvent themselves and dehumanize an act like sex – to make it meaningless. Unless it’s going to be truly a one-night stand–where you never see that person again.

        And if you could do that–and feel fine–bravo to you. Good for those women.

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        • Angeline Says:

          Good Lord, the condescension is strong in this one. “If you can do that and feel fine …” can you not hear the superior tone in your posts? Talk about shaming language. Friends, even lovers, even those in a long term, committed relationship or marriage, most certainly DO “fuck” (if they’re lucky). They also might have the “tenderly brush the hair off her forehead and rainbows and sparkles fly out of his eyes” kind of sex. One has no bearing on or exclusion of the other. Do not presume to speak for all women. That women are more emotional is A) probably not true and B) not necessarily a flag to wrap oneself in if it is true. The fact that so many women ride on and elevate their fleeting emotions to something that justifies actions or excuses them is a FLAW, not something to celebrate.

          Women who shame other women for having sex and enjoying it, regardless of the timing, are the ones making sex a commodity, not men. By using language such as “you GAVE him sex on the first date!” and placing all that nasty physical stuff outside the realm of getting to know someone, you makke it a barter chip. Which gender has made sex a transaction in this scenario?

          And this – do you not even see the contradiction here?
          “And being used and tossed aside is a horrible feeling, even from men we don’t necessarily want a long-term relationship with” (that we want to use and toss aside).

          Having fun, affectionate sex (or even – gasp – a good fucking) IS connection and intimacy, while it lasts. If you’re fun, and sane, and enjoy it for what it is, the happy appreciation you get back from the man is all out of proportion to the event, because attitudes like the one displayed above are what he’s braced for. Don’t project a whole relationship onto the sex – let it grow along with the sex. You don’t deserve anything more than that, just because you “gave” him sex (there, that ugly ‘transaction’ thing rears its ugly head again). Holy balls, if you only felt like you conceded something when you have sex, you’re doing it wrong. Too many rainbows, maybe.

          This is where I fear the OP will go wrong as well – she’ll get the completely wrong conclusion from how her new beau disappeared on her. It wasn’t the sex (unless – as Badger said before he went off the rails with that ridiculous expenditure of energy paragraph – she completely sucked in bed). It was being all up in his ass about what the sex MEANT, and whenareyougoingtocallmeagainblahblahblah. The OP is all wounded and put-upon that we don’t see the great value of what she “gave up” and are focusing on what she did wrong. First off, Mr. Evil (snazzy dresser) Dirtbag (hot) Douchbag (rich) Player did not write in for advice. Take it and run with it, OP. You’re the one who came here asking questions.

          You can keep repeating this experience by not understanding how you contributed, by not understanding that your virgin status is gone forever, by not understanding men, and by not acknowledging and celebrating your own sexual nature. Or you can bypass all that and get some cats now.

          One last piece of advice from another 53 year old: your window to figure this out is vastly compressed if you’re hoping for another long-term relationship. The tricky part about it is not the “stop looking and BAM! There it will be,” it’s “stop pressing so goddamned hard and let it grow on its own.” Get sane, get healthy, lose weight, HAVE FUN.

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        • Angeline Says:

          Aaaand I just realized I am referring to the wrong OP. My apologies to the one who wrote in on this post. Although she’s making a similar mistake in thinking holding sex on a shelf = relationship.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          Anyone that is a friend to you–wouldn’t “Fuck” you or “fuck you over”.
          I agree with the latter, but not the former. Have you never had sex for its own sake? That’s called fucking, and yes, sometimes that’s what sex is–even within a romantic relationship.

          Fucking an inanimate object – satisfies a man’s or woman’s need for a “physical need”.
          ITYM “orgasm”. True, it does, but it definitely dehumanizes sex. Hint: you’re not fucking a human.

          Friends with Benefits. Who benefits?
          Both of you: you get laid. Otherwise, why are you doing it? Hint: if you’re having sex for any other reason than the sex itself, eg. because of irrational expectations about what it supposedly “means” to you and/or them, that is why you get hurt. Don’t do that.

          women are emotional beings. They can’t reinvent themselves and dehumanize an act like sex – to make it meaningless.
          Sex is inherently meaningless. It is your socialization as a woman in our culture that makes you irrationally expect it to mean something. And many women are, like men, able to see through that bullshit. Don’t blame other people because you can’t.

          Unless it’s going to be truly a one-night stand–where you never see that person again.
          This shows how you’ve started to see through the bullshit but are afraid to take the next step. The only difference between fucking a stranger, which you seem to accept, and fucking a not-stranger, which you don’t accept, is your expectations of the latter are higher than of the former.

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  18. Gorbachev Says:

    The Friend Zone is a real place. If you’re plenty attractive and have advantages, of course you have sex with whatever woman you want. But not all men are so blessed.

    They can still score, but they need backup: Dominance, charisma, game. Also luck.

    A very hot guy who’s also nice will score all the time. a male 8 has no problem (though I’ve seen many strike out).

    On the other hand, a male 6 has to up his game to get the same effect. The beauty of it is, it’s possible.

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    • The D-man Says:

      The Friend Zone definitely exists, but it’s the guys who allow it to happen. If you’re attracted to a woman, it’s your job to escalate. If she rejects you, then either stop hanging out with her or accept that she will only ever be a friend, and don’t whine about it.

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  19. Breaker Morant Says:

    Ive been in a similar situation once before. By doing what you suggest you end up “stealing energy” from the new relationship.

    I remember vividly. We’d had a few dates and it had great potential. I did have a FWB who’d been put on ice for a couple of weeks. He texted one Sunday afternoon for a “session”. I obliged and spent the next 3 hours at FWBs house. During that time the new guy had also texted and then phoned to ask if I wanted to go to a concert in a private box which he’d just scored tickets to. He was so excited as it was an amazing opportunity he didn’t want “us” to miss out on. He called a 2nd time left a message and gave up.

    When I got home and turned my phone on I heard the messages and saw the text I didn’t know what to do. He’d never find out what I was really doing but the entire situation was “compromised”. Compromised in my own head. What would I say? Sorry I was at my sick grandmothers? I started to think up elaborate lies to tell him to cover. I messed up. Sure we’re not available 24 x 7 but I knew in my mind why I missed out on this opportunity and I didn’t feel comfortable telling him a lie to cover what I’d been doing. We met the next day but I couldn’t get it out of my head. The new guy kept making playful jokes on what we missed out on and I’d just laugh knowing how stupid I was.

    I think about him often and what this situation presented. We stopped dating shortly after. The path that we were on changed after that Sunday. It was a subtle change. More in me than him. I compromised the momentum and flow of those early stages which are so nerve racking but fun. The balance shifted.

    Sometimes we’d should to see how things pan out before instant gratification.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Why all the drama? I don’t think there was any disrupted momentum. You made excuses up in your head for why things had “changed.” But nothing changed. Sounds like you were just looking for drama.

      The relationship didn’t end because you slept with your FWB and missed some random opportunity. it ended because you wanted it to end. That’s why you were screwing your FWB in the first place.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 9

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      • Breaker Morant Says:

        You’re right I should have just lied ;-)

        It’s not drama – I was just bringing an example to the table where the act of FWB’ing compounds further than just the act itself.

        I saw the new guy a few more times and should have put the playful concert jokes to bed because he’d kept bringing it up. If I had been at sick grandmothers it would have been easy to say “enough with the gags”.

        Like I said it was a subtle change. Maybe it would have ended anyway. Who knows? I just think in the very early stages everyone deserves a chance and by contuning a FWB situation doesn’t give the new person a 100% chance.

        Each to there own. Some can get away with it and not think too much about it others not. Put me in the latter category. I’m just not s good liar! :)

        I’m not torn over this situation I’ve moved on and met someone else but I think about it often because I apply the situation to many other facets of my life. It’s my own personal fable.

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        • bill Says:

          Lies only work so sell because your natural human emotions give it away.

          From what I have seen most women in FWB want to date the guy instead most women squander there time away with a guy who is only interested in FWB instead of a genuine person who is interested in dating them long term.

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  20. MrWombat Says:

    ““I’m really attracted to you, you really turn me on, but I want to get to know you better before we have sex.” Guys, your reaction?”

    Sincerely answer – “yeah, you’re right: we really shouldn’t be doing this”, establishing the frame that you are, indeed, doing “this”. Works great on people with religious hangups, too.

    Google “Last Minute Resistance”.

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  21. John Says:

    I wouldn’t have a problem with stripping down to underwear and then stopping at that point if it is the first time you got that far. As long as you are making progress and in this case it was. If the prior date it was a great makeout session and clothes stayed on, and then this time it was a makeout session with only underwear, that is progress.

    I will take a fourth date makeout session half naked every time if I am into the girl.

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