Why It’s Important To Know Your Dating Audience

Name: Michael
Question: I’m 48 and divorced for about 3 years. My question is simple, why is it that women in my age group and status (divorced w/ kids) are such head cases when it comes to dating and sex. One would think that having been divorced w/ kids they “know the drill,” but in fact they do not. And just so the record is clear, I do not meet women online, and am a nice looking, respectful guy with a good business, friends, interests, and hobbies. I also make it clear that we are not going out as friends but that we are on a date. When I meet a woman I want to take out I literally say “I would like to take you ON A DATE.” My intentions are clear. Yet they act shocked when we go out and I begin to (appropriately) flirt with them. In fact, the most balanced women I have met have been gals in their 20’s to early 30’s. You would think that they would be turned off by a guy in his 40’s w/ kids and who does not want more or to get re-married hitting on them. But they are not. So my question is simple – where do I find age and situation appropriate women who actually want to date – and by dating that includes intimacy, because without intimacy it is just a dumb guy being a woman’s entertainment committee.
Age: 48
State: NY

 

One would think that having been divorced w/ kids they “know the drill,”

Well, no, because they’ve been married and raising kids for the past 5-10 years or so. That means that when they left the dating scene, things were very different. They’re adjusting. They are still following the old rules. You know, where guys call to ask them out, etc. This is all culture shock for them.

It sounds like the bigger issue for you is that none of these women you go out with want to have any sort of intimacy with you. Reading this letter and many of your comments, I can see why. Dude, you’re scary. You’re very, very angry. I know you’ll say you’re not and that you’re totally different on a date. But people can pick up on underlying resentment and anger.If I were you, I’d start there. If you keep running into this situation, the problem is likely with you. I don’t know why that is so hard to hear for some people. You are part of the pattern. Ignoring that will not help you. You can live in delusion if you like. But you will end up alone. Of that I can assure you.

I don’t disagree that many women in your age bracket, with or without kids, aren’t what we’ll agree to call “difficult.” They are. In fact, when we host speeddating events for an age range that goes over 45, it’s difficult for me to staff it with my event managers. This is a tough age group, on both sides. It’s shocking to me to see and hear about some of the behavior of the people in this age range. Lots of people set in their ways, or who never dealt with their issues that were keeping them single. This group is far more prone to complaining and negativity, too. That works both ways. Men in this age range are also hard to handle. These are people who have been repeating the same bad behavior over and over and over again to the point where it has become ingrained in them.  I’m almost thinking of setting up a speeddating event where, for the first part of the event, everybody sits with me for ten minutes and I tell them what sort of first impression they make.

I’m totally starting to see why men gravitate towards younger women. I’ve said this before…when you do a search on any online dating for men 35-39 and men 42+, the difference in looks, attitude and attractiveness is vast. Whether men care about this or not, and they probably don’t, they should probably be aware that women in their late thirties to late forties are now starting to follow their lead. Especially those of us not looking to settle down any time soon. We don’t want the chubby, pasty, bitter 45 year old. Not only that, we don’t have to settle for it. We can date that 35, 37.,39 year old. That is, as long as we understand a very important caveat: it probably isn’t going to lead to long term commitment. But then, sometimes it does. Just not often. The harsh truth is that if we’ve gotten to this age and not been able to meet that goal of finding someone to settle down with, it’s not terribly likely we will any time soon. Time to take a good long look in the proverbial and literal mirror and accept certain realities. Mind you, I’m not saying that because being a certain age makes us less attractive. Nor am I referring to some dumb “expiration date.” I’m merely suggesting that what it is you thought you wanted might not  really be what you want after all. Because if you really did want it, you’d probably have it.

In fact, the most balanced women I have met have been gals in their 20’s to early 30’s. You would think that they would be turned off by a guy in his 40’s w/ kids and who does not want more or to get re-married hitting on them. But they are not.

Most of those women are turned off by a guy your age hitting on them. They’re indulging you for a free meal, gifts or attention.  What they say to your face and what they say behind your back are two different stories.They’re not the least bit invested in you. That’s why they don’t care. I do so love how men get such an ego boost from getting attention from younger women, oblivious to the fact that the attention isn’t substantive or real. But then, my guess is the socially/self-aware ones do get that. They just don’t care. But the others, like the OP, actually believe these women are drawn to their charm and personality. How cute. Sorry, brah. Those younger women don’t know enough to realize what you’re really all about, what your issues are, etc. It’s very easy to get some young simpleton to be impressed by you and your apartment and your job and by the places you take her and gifts you buy her. It’s a far bigger accomplishment to get someone to see you for exactly who you are and love you anyway.

I think the bigger problem for the OP and men/women like him is that they don’t know how to read women/men and don’t have an accurate perception of themselves.  You can read any comment string on this blog and hear women in their 40’s go on and on about how bitter/cheap/meek/deceptive/weak men are. Never once do they do they math and go, “Hmmm…why is it that I can never meet a man this meets my standards?” Here’s why..because the men you pursue don’t find you attractive. That’s it.Same goes for the whiny men. Sorry. You’re shooting out of your league. Time to fix that.

Repeat after me..know your audience.

If you keep meeting people or are hit on by people that are what you consider beneath you in some way, or keep meeting “crazies,” or are getting ignored by all those people you contact online, you need to re-evaluate.

You probably aren’t in the league you think you are. Either that or there is something drastically wrong with your approach.

I’m looking for fresh new questions for our dating advice column. All questions are anonymous. We cover all kinds of topics including: Online Dating– Facebook & Dating– Sex & Exclusivity– Traditional Dating “Rules”– The Fade. If you have any suggested topics, or want to submit a letter, please submit your questions here:

http://andthatswhyyouresingle.com/submit-a-datingrelationship-question/

If you’ve got a confusing or frustrating dating dilemma, get honest and insightful feedback from singles all across the country!

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...
Share
, , , , , , , , ,

86 Responses to “Why It’s Important To Know Your Dating Audience”

  1. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    Agree with Moxie. The best advice to solve about 75% of the problems presented here is to set reasonable expectations for yourself (in other words, stop shooting out of your league.) However, as we all know, that advice is never taken well (even though it is good advice) and is usually more for the benefit and entertainment of other readers and commenters than the OP.

    My experience, in dating, is that the older the woman the higher her expectations, whereas it should be the opposite. The “older women” (late thirties and forties) generally expect meals and lots of courting, and sex is almost never on the table on the first few dates. Younger women, aside from being more physically attractive in general, are usually open to anything for the dates, are more generous, and as a kicker, they are more carefree about sex and intimacy, or whatever. Or, at least, if they harbor unreasonably high expectations, they don’t make those expectations known in the most socially-inappropriate way possible. Thats in general.

    I don’t agree that older women are stuck in a different decade, as Moxie suggests, when dating was easier. Things haven’t changed that much. It’s that THEY are older – they are not the same person they were in their twenties, regardless of which decade they live in. Dating has always been difficult for older women. These women who’ve been supposedly off the market for some time are mentally stuck in theiir youth, when men would fall at their feet regardless of how insufferable they were. It was easy back then, and they still think it should be easy like that. I’m sure “older” men are like this too but I don’t have experience with them, other than myself. And, I like to think my expectations are pretty reasonable.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 25 Thumb down 7

    Reply

    • offensivedan Says:

      I don’t think the OP comes across as angry–more like frustrated. He’s coming across wht older men have to deal with these days in the dating scene. It’s like Drivingmenutsack pointed out–the older a woman is the higher are her expectations. I have been on a few dates with women 42 yeard old and older and they are all high maintenance pains in the ass. They all expetc to be wined and dined and do a lot of complaining. Forget that.

      For a man in his late thirties or older, here is what you will find: Women in their mid to late thirties have devolved back to their teenage and formative years. They tend to be very immature and self-centered–especially, the ones coming from or going through a divorce. Those are a waste of time .Women in their twenties are only looking for gifts and a free meal. The sweet spot are women in their early thiries. Eschew all others.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 22 Thumb down 14

      Reply

      • Max Says:

        Interesting about the “sweetspot”, the averga age of marriage is 28yrs old and average age of divorce is 32-33 years old. Maybe if you are early 30’s and still not married you are not wrecked with divorce or kids.Probably good target group of women.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

        Reply

      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        “I don’t think the OP comes across as angry–more like frustrated. He’s coming across wht older men have to deal with these days in the dating scene.”

        Well, how do we know what he has to offer these women. He thinks he’s a catch, but where is the evidence. That is the point. If he doesn’t want to date older, divorced women, because they are unreasonable, let him stop trying and go date younger women. Oh, that’s not working either? Ok, plan C is to go to the Internet and complain. It’s obvious (to me at least) that once you’re at that point, the problem is you, not them.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 5

        Reply

    • Howard Says:

      I don’t think it’s an out of his league thing. If his approach is wrong, no one will be in his league but really desperate women. My current love interest is in her forties. Yes, she is high maintenance. Yes she has baggage. I deal with it and I am amply rewarded for doing that. Life tends to leave people stuck on things having to be a certain way. Negative experiences sometimes hurt more than help us, hence baggage.

      But nothing is static in this world; Time heals all wounds and we are all capable of leaving outmoded imaginings behind. One needs the right balance of patience, and not feeding into the crazy. I can assure you that much of the crazy stuff with my current lady, has disappered with time, patience and resoluteness on my part. In a crazy way, it’s a form of testing on their part, some conscious, most unconscious. Hate to say it, but one has to sometimes ignore bad behavior, but always reward good behavior.

      At her very core the over 40 women knows she has baggage and is stuck on strange imaginings. And she really appreciates the guy who is mature enough to handle that without anger, or feeding into it too much. I find younger women will give the older guy that respect thing for a minute that is not real. And in spite what Moxie might imagine, with her dinner whore assertions, they do put out. However,once you get in deep, you are going to have to deal with many of the same issues plus immaturity plus being their second option.

      Michael, the best tactic for dealing with women in general is to not get angry. Just calmly say how you feel when faced with what bothers you, in as few words as possible, and then let your actions mirror your words. Trust me, things will go better in the end.

      Now on the flip side. Older women have to realize that the world is not the same anymore. Not too many men are willing to play psychiatrist to them and their imaginings and experiences.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 2

      Reply

  2. Cheater Hater Says:

    I actually get where this guy is coming from. He wants a Saturday night girlfriend!!! Maybe even a regular one…or someone for an LTR. Please let me reply….

    Mister….there are indeed some women out there who are really looking for men like you! (I’m actually one of them). The working women in their 40’s who already have kids are also looking for someone special in their lives, and may not be interested in marriage at the moment, but would love an LTR.

    So maybe Moxie should excuse her current event managers for an evening and ask some more seasoned folks in to help facilitate…since people like me and you don’t live in the on-line dating world.

    Cheers!

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 21 Thumb down 1

    Reply

  3. Chris Says:

    “I’m almost thinking of setting up a speeddating event where, for the first part of the event, everybody sits with me for ten minutes and I tell them what sort of first impression they make”.

    Love this idea. I, for one, would welcome any feedback on how I can improve my first impression. I would think anyone would.

    I also agree with Moxie that you need to change yourself in order to change who you meet. The old saying Birds of Feather Flock Together rings true in both friendships and relationships.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Brad Says:

      “I’m almost thinking of setting up a speeddating event where, for the first part of the event, everybody sits with me for ten minutes and I tell them what sort of first impression they make”.

      For extra revenue, you could sell tickets to these feedback sessions. I’ll be there with a large tub of popcorn.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0

      Reply

    • chillybeans Says:

      Someone once wisely commented on this blog “change the bait or change the pond”, so true.

      I like the idea of Moxie vetting first impressions
      In the meantime, based solely on what I have seen, experienced, and been told to by friends, I present this “First Date Primer:

      Do not chew with your mouth open, or otherwise have food flying out of it

      If you have any kind of a cold/virus/infection etc, do not french kiss your date (who ended up on antibiotics, thank you very much)

      Do not rant about your ex-wife, or as you call her, “the bitch who is bleeding me dry”. Some of us who are ex wives may be offended, not a good way to get us in the sack. Same goes for you ladies complaining about the jerk you married. Not first date conversation. Same goes for the restraining orders you had to take out.

      If you are fortunate enough to get a woman who likes you back to your place, do not make her watch depressing history channel documentaries. Watching soldiers die does not get us in the mood. (more for later dates, but you get the idea)

      Do not dominate the conversation. You want a dialogue, not a monologue. Have a friend be a fly on the wall if you have this unfortunate tendency. I know a lot of it is nerves, but if your dates eyes are glazing over, time to let him/her speak for a change.

      If you are a guy, let your date have the more comfortable seat. Yes, I know very old fashioned, but much appreciated. And it works out for guys, if she doesn’t have a sore back from the hard wood chair you stuck her in, while you took the comfy padded bench seat.She will feel more generous towards you.

      Don’t use your straw to direct spit balls at your date (well maybe if you are a teenager, but not after that!)

      Honestly, I could not make this stuff up if I tried. And I’m sure there is far worse out there. It seems obvious to me, but there is such cluelessness out there.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 0

      Reply

      • LostSailor Says:

        Chilly, please tell me you made this up. Please.

        Then again, if there are that many clueless morons like these guys out there, perhaps it’s better for those of us who know what we’re doing…

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

        Reply

        • chillybeans Says:

          Nope,it’sall true, either happened to me, my friends or I saw it happen…..

          I read somewhere there are more Americans living alone than at any other time in history, and also a huge trend in working from home. So maybe we are less used to being around other people? I don’t know how else to explain it. And the women can be very clueless too, don’t want to just blame the guys:)

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

          Reply

  4. Alan Says:

    My immediate reaction is that Moxie is reading a lot more into this guy than what I got from this note. Maybe she has some other data. But I certainly don’t get scary and angry. (of course I’m this guy’s demographic (actually older) and see some things in his note I agree with and I wouldn’t want to think of myself as scary and angry–so maybe that’s it)

    There is something off in Moxie’s comments about chubby bitter pasty 45 year olds. And in her warning that the early 40 demographic can date younger (with a caveat). And finally in her characterization of why young girls sometimes go out with demographically inappropriate men. can’t put my finger on it but it kind of struck me.

    I’ve had thoughts similar to the OP. I’ve observed incredibly self-entitled behavior by women old enuff to know better. There is a lot of variation in the group of single women in their early 40s. (men too I suppose) Whether divorced or single many are stuck in the same behavior patterns they had when they were much younger.

    Happily I’ve been in a multiple year relationship with a pretty good woman in her early 40’s who would probably offer the characteristics that the OP is looking for. So they are out there. Recently, I had the good fortune to assist her host a weekend at my beach house for several of her early 40’s single friends–each of which were quite attractive, intelligent, had good jobs–had lots of good stuff going for them. I had never met these people but had heard a lot about them from my lady friend.

    None had been in relationships for quite a while nor did I hear about prospects and they were still working the internet dating sites–which I feel is a waste of time if you live in Manhattan. One of them was particularly averse to hearing any of my suggestions–saying

    “I’ve been dating for 43 years and I know what I’m doing and don’t need any help.”

    Oblivious.

    So my guess is there is some of that and as Moxie often suggests there are many people who refuse to take stock of themselves and continue to swing for the fences.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Maybe she has some other data.

      The OP is a regular commenter. He comments under the name Michael.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2

      Reply

  5. AJ Says:

    My opinion, for what it’s worth…dating hasn’t changed we have. When we were all in our 20’s and 30 most of us were on the same page as far as goals for the future. Graduate, get a job, find someone, get married, have kids. It was somewhat easier because we all were on the same page.

    Fast forward…been there done that. The older women I talk to all seem to want different things. Some just want to date, nothing serious, some still want what they wanted in their 20’s, some want some kind of meaningful companionship. Some don’t even want a man in their life at all.

    Like Moxie said. We all need to do some radical acceptance and stop complaining.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

    Reply

  6. The Private Man Says:

    I date a lot of women in their 40s and most complain about the bitter and angry men they meet. It always amazed me that guys would express their negative emotions while on early dates. It completely baffled me!

    Then I realized something about this middle-aged demographic: it’s the “be in touch with your feelings” generation. As men in our late teens and 20s, we were constantly bombarded with admonishments to be more sensitive and express our emotions more. It was the time of Alan Alda and Sensitive New Age Guys (SNAGs).

    Now in their late 40s and into our 50s, those guys kept on emoting like crazy but after a divorce or two and some bad experiences with women the emotions turned negative. That explains why so many guys ruin relationship potential because they simply won’t shut up with their negativity. They were told to be this way.

    While the past can’t be changed, men can still be counseled to turn off the emotion-expressing spigot. Being a SNAG is not attractive to women, despite what was said back in the 1980s. Unfortunately, this is a tough demographic to reach. These guys are not big consumers of online dating advice. They respond poorly to advertising and marketing. They have stubborn physical and emotional habits built through decades.

    There is no easy answer for this except that Moxie is right in that a 3rd party evaluation of how a man is perceived is in order. As I work in technology, I see too many guys (of all ages) who come across as creepy. I just want to smack them!

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • LostSailor Says:

      Yes, our feminist culture has shaped (and in many cases nearly ruined) men such that when the get to their 40 and have done everything they’ve been told to do to be successful with women (just be nice, be respectful, be yourself, be in touch with your emotions) only to be repeatedly shot down, they’re confused and perhaps bitter.

      Even a 3rd-party evaluation isn’t likely to help undo decades of brainwashing. They simply will refuse to believe it. It’s hard to accept that you’ve been lied to most of your life. And the only way to change is by self-examination.

      PM, I have actually smacked some younger (late 30s/early 40s) men I know when I see them doing dumb things while trying to attract women.

      Perhaps we should start a movement. Single Manned-up-Aged Confident Knowledgeable Erudite Dudes (SMACKED). Our slogan? “Hey, men! Not having the success with the ladies you think you deserve? Then get SMACKED!”

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 4

      Reply

      • The Private Man Says:

        The irony is that it’s likely these men divorced precisely BECAUSE they were SNAGs. So, a cycle of relationship failure starts and this leads to the negativity expressed by the time of middle-age.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

        Reply

  7. LostSailor Says:

    I have a different take on this. I don’t read Michael’s OP as complaining that the “age appropriate” women are difficult or head-cases. Michael is complaining that they’re just not DTF.

    My intentions are clear. Yet they act shocked when we go out and I begin to (appropriately) flirt with them.

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest 1) your intentions are not clear and 2) your flirting is probably not appropriate.

    Not everyone is going to be great at picking up your intentions. Your intention in emphasizing that your taking her on a “DATE” may be to have a few drinks, maybe dinner, and then get busy. Her intention in accepting your “date” is more likely to be to have a few drinks, maybe dinner, and get to know you.

    When your “flirting” becomes overly suggestive, possibly overly sexual, too soon, it’s gonna more than likely come across as too aggressive and maybe even “creepy.”

    So, here’s my take. While it’s appropriate to always be escalating, you have to work on picking up the signals of your date’s intentions. You lack calibration. You have to tailor your flirting to the situation at hand, read the cues she’s giving you and back off if necessary. You may or may not know anything about these women’s relationship history and if they’ve been hit up for sex too often and then dumped, they’re gonna be wary is your escalation is too much too soon. You need to develop situational awareness. Women in their 40s are not likely to sleep with you on the first date, or the second or even the third. I’ve had not a few quite frisky first dates, but the norm is that the frisky need to be built toward.

    Michael: You would think that they would be turned off by a guy in his 40′s w/ kids and who does not want more or to get re-married hitting on them. But they are not.

    Moxie: I do so love how men get such an ego boost from getting attention from younger women, oblivious to the fact that the attention isn’t substantive or real….

    Moxie is quite correct here. Michael, you say they are not “turned off” by your hitting on them with what I must assume is the same type of “appropriate” flirting that is turning off the older women. Moxie’s right that late 20s early 30s women like the attention. The real test is not whether they are turned off, but whether they are turned on. That is, how many of them are you actually knocking boots with? If the answer is “a lot” then what’s the problem? Go in peace. But because you are writing in here, I’m guessing that the answer is very few or none.

    But then, my guess is the socially/self-aware ones do get that. They just don’t care.

    Yup. I know quite a lot of single 20s/30s women in my extended social circle, and I meet not a few when out and about. I flirt outrageously with them and they love it, returning it right back. And while I certainly would not turn down an opportunity should it arise, I know that they enjoy the aggressive flirting precisely because they have absolutely no intention of acting on it And I don’t care. I’m having fun, and getting in some good practice for my real dates.

    Michael, I think you need to work on not relaying your intentions (I can assure you, these women all know that you want to bang them), but on reading their signals to you…

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 31 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • LostSailor Says:

      Darn it, Moxie. You need an editing feature here. And I need to proofread better. Apologies for the missed quote tag and typos.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

      Reply

    • Selena Says:

      Lost Sailor,

      I’m really enjoying your posts on this thread. :)

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

      Reply

      • LostSailor Says:

        Thanks, Selena. I try not to bullshit myself or anyone else. Unless, of course, they really need it…

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

        Reply

  8. Trouble Says:

    Michael is complaining that they’re just not DTF

    I think Lost Sailor has nailed it. My thought when I read Michael’s post was the emphasis he put on how “appropriate” his flirting was. If you have to say that, your flirting isn’t appropriate, and it’s probably screaming “creeper” to the women in your own age group.

    One thing I notice as I hit the downward slope of my 40s is that I have a pretty finely tuned bullshit detector. I can see–so much more clearly than I could in my 30s–when a guy is trying to shine me on and when he has ill intentions. Your post has some vibes that I think ought to be addressed:

    First, I think that the reason that you emphasize that these are “dates” and not just two people hanging out is that by communicating that it’s “a date,” you are signaling that you expect some physical gratification from the woman. In other words, you’re communicating a message to these women that it’s a date, you’re throwing money down, and you are expecting some kind of reciprocal sexual payment for that “date.”

    That shit would piss me off and I would probably end up getting colder and colder to you until I eventually paid half the check and left your ass sitting in some nice restaurant…at this point in my life, I don’t respond very well to manipulation. This is exactly why I think dinner for a first date is a bad idea. I didn’t ever like that attitude of entitlement that guys can have when they buy dinner, and I never wanted to feel obligated to let some guy grab my tits because he bought me a steak. Fuck that, I can buy my own steak and eat it on my own terms with better company than you.

    Second, I think you’ve succumbed to “nice guy” disease…it’s belief that some guys have that when they follow all of “the rules,” a woman is obligated to gratify them sexually. When the women don’t “play by the rules,” the guy gets increasingly bitter and frustrated. I think that you think that when you’ve taken a woman on a date, she owes you. So, I bet your “appropriate flirtation” is designed to communicate that message.

    I would say that, in general, women in their 40s are less tolerant of this sort of thing than women in their 20s-30s. We’ve seen it more, we spot it faster, and we are more direct in how we deal with it. You can sometimes dupe the girls in their 20s, who may be briefly fooled by superficial charisma and sophistication, but you can’t fool women in your own age group with these ploys. We don’t like them, and we aren’t very responsive to them.

    This sounds like it’s happening to you a lot, which says to me that women your own age can see right through your little act, and aren’t attracted to it. You need to change up your game.

    FWIW, I do get what the guys in the thread are saying…there are a lot of entitled, clueless women out there who don’t have any idea of their actual “league” in the dating world. But, in this case, I think this guy is actually shooting himself in the foot.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 43 Thumb down 2

    Reply

    • Eliza Says:

      I completely agree with Trouble. Couldn’t have said it better. A smart, 40 something year old woman that is looking for a LTR is not going to appreciate being manipulated, or feel she needs to reciprocate–simply because a man suggested they have dinner together. The OP needs to learn to read body language better, and respect the person they are with, and their boundaries. If you don’t want any boundaries…save yourself all the romance, conversation and just hire a prostitute.
      In that situation, you are guaranteed to get that level of “intimacy” you seek. But yes, you have to pay a prostitute. Not with dinner, but cash. That’s what men like the OP don’t understand. Dating is not a form a prostitution. Women don’t OWE men anything, just because they spent time together or went out. I agree with women when they prefer to go dutch…this way-you don’t feel indebted to a man. A gentleman will never expect physical gratification. It will naturally happen, if the chemistry is there, in due time.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 5

      Reply

    • offensivedan Says:

      No, you are wrong, Guys get mad and angry when women take advantage of their hospitality and courteous behavior. I don’t believe most men get mad or frustrated when a women is not interested in them even though they acted like a gentlemen. Rather, they are disappointed. The anger and frustration enters when the woman takes advantege via a free meal, lots of drinks et al. Women know whether or not they see potential in a guy within the first few mibnutes of meeting. They should not use a man to subsidize their daily desire for entertainment. That’s just garbage.

      If you don’t want to be groped, then don’t go to dinner or say no to the date. To be honest, you should not be going out to dinner with a guy on the first date. That’s for later and you, as an older woman, should know better. Like I said, women in their forties have these expectations bordering on the obnoxious and get all pissy when called on it either by words or a grope.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 15 Thumb down 30

      Reply

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        If you don’t want to be groped, then don’t go to dinner or say no to the date.

        Or, and this might sound kinda wild, maybe learn to temper your rapey tendencies?

        For real? Don’t accept a date if you don’t want to be groped? Can you hear yourself?

        Like I said, women in their forties have these expectations bordering on the obnoxious and get all pissy when called on it either by words or a grope.

        Let’s see…called on it by a grope. Yup. That sounds rather rapey.

        Breaking….buying me dinner or a cocktail does not afford you the liberty to touch my boobies.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 42 Thumb down 1

        Reply

        • Chris Says:

          I am new to this site and I love to read everyone’s input but I was really taken aback by offensivedan’s comment (I know I shouldn’t be considering his handle) but I believe Moxie set him straight so I feel no need to say any more then what she said.

          But I will reply to the comment about dinner dates. Dan not all women and men know if they like someone within the first few minutes, they know if they are attracted to them but really liking someone comes with time spent with them. First date dinners reveal a lot about a person (table manners, kindness to the server, the intellect to keep a conversation going) things are important when you are trying to get to know someone.

          Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1

          Reply

          • Eliza Says:

            Thank you Chris…for being someone with intelligence and reasoning. Unlike OffensiveDan–who is outright offensive. Perfect nametag for someone who believes – if any woman “accepts”, not suggests, a dinner date from a man…that they could expect or should not be offended by a man’s aggressive physical advances. That to me, is a slight form of prostitution…and no woman should feel indebted to ANY man, simply because she accepted a invitation to lunch, dinner or any meal for that matter. Or drinks, or coffee. And aside from what one sees the first 3-5 minutes of meeting someone–it DOES take time to get to know someone–to really know if they “like” that person, and are not just merely attracted to how they look. Personality, humor, manners all surface in time.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

            Reply

      • Trouble Says:

        While I think Offensive Dan’s comments were…interestingly creepy…in all fairness, after my divorce, with a couple of exceptions, I didn’t accept a lot of dinner dates. I steered men towards lunch or coffee dates or even just having a casual beer for the first several dates. Frankly, I wasn’t particularly interested in having an intimate dinner in some dark candlelit restaurant with a guy I’d just met. I had a couple of bad experiences early on when I was newly single where guys made it clear that they expected some literal tit for tat after a dinner date, and I’m not up for that.

        For me, meeting for dinner too quickly created a level of pressure that I found uncomfortable. Even down here, dinner in a nice place with a couple of glasses of wine is likely to top $150 for two, and even though some guys don’t have expectations after shelling out that kind of money, a lot clearly do. Avoiding that scenario made it easier for me to avoid uncomfortable situations like being pinned against a car in a dark parking lot and worrying about whether I was going to get raped by some moron I didn’t even like (been there, done that).

        Further, I don’t like a show of romance when there’s nothing behind it.

        It usually took me several dates to figure out where something was heading, so I preferred to keep it more casual until that point. Dinner is pretty unnecessary in my book for the first few dates, unless you’re headed towards dating exclusively.

        So, I would say that I question the benefits to a woman of going out to dinner with a guy that you’re ambivalent about. It’s not really fair to the guy (for him to be put in the position of spending quite a lot of money on a woman who’s half-hearted about him), and I certainly found that it led to awkward circumstances for me.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

        Reply

        • Chris Says:

          Trouble I agree that’s it’s not right for a guy to spend oodles of money on a woman that is not really into them. As I read thru this blog I see that most of the dating experience is based in the city which takes dating to a whole different level. The date starts costing you money the moment you walk out your door. Here in the burbs a dinner date can be a simple Irish Pub, a few beers and not cost either people an arm or a leg. But I still think people should think of ways to be on a date that puts that person in some arena that truly reveals actions of character without wiping out their bank account. Coffee at Starbucks or a walk in the park will reveal his/her intellect but will not reveal how they interact with the world around them (waiters, sales people, babies crying, elderly people, etc….) And don’t laugh about the elderly people because I went out with one gentleman(second date, first date was just coffee) who asked the hostess to not sit us near an elderly couple because he didn’t want his meal to be ruined by their sloppy toothless eating manners – I kid you not. I told him right then and there that the date was over and I slipped the hostess a $20 so she can present that elderly couple (who was celebrating their 60th Anniversary) a nice glass of champagne. First date didn’t reveal this side to him because we just sat at a little table with no “distractions”.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

          Reply

          • Trouble Says:

            I’m sorry, Chris…you can’t tell me that you couldn’t have observed his interactions with servers and other customers in a coffee shop or at a busy restaurant at lunch.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4

            Reply

            • Chris Says:

              Oh I agree…that rudeness would have showed itself in any of those situations for sure. Just had to put him there to see it.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

              Reply

      • LostSailor Says:

        Dan, if you’re “groping” women on a date, you’re doing it wrong. If you’re doing it right, the woman will be wanting to grope you. Also, you should be going on dinner-dates with a woman unless she’s at least playfully slapped you on the ass…

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

        Reply

        • LostSailor Says:

          Correction: you should NOT be going on dinner-dates… Need. More. Coffee.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

          Reply

        • Trouble Says:

          Yeah, I have to agree with LS on this, as well. As a woman in my 40s, I’m really comfortable with my body. I’m not shy about sex, and I’ve had my fair share of it. I usually don’t initiate kissing a guy, but I’ll do a ton of things to let him know I want him to kiss me. It took my husband 3 dates to finally work his confidence up to kiss me, but all during that third date, I was touching his hands, sitting close to him, putting my hand on his arm, etc. I’m not the kind of woman who slaps the ass of a man I’m not dating seriously, but women in my age group usually put out a million non-verbal cues that we want you.

          If they are consistently not doing that, you’re doing something to alienate them. I don’t know what it is…I actually think Moxie should think about creating a stable of “test daters” to observe men/women on dates and report back on what they’re doing wrong. Short of first-hand observation, it’s hard to say.

          I went on a date several years ago with a guy who, on paper, was perfect. He was attractive, well-dressed, accomplished, well-educated, smart, funny, etc.

          MY GOD, he had the worst breath I’ve ever smelled. I liked the guy, but there was no way in hell I was going on another date with him. Imagine how much something so simple has probably crippled him in the dating world, and he must not know, or he’d have fixed the problem. And, who’s going to tell you something like that? Not the people you go on first dates with.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

          Reply

    • Howard Says:

      Trouble, regarding your comment at 3.28pm. I thought Michael was the angry guy. Yeah he has some isssues, but nothing compared to the venting coming in that post. This is the toxic mix we seem to have in the over 40 crowd. “And that’s why you are single” ends up as the only result. Why does everybody have to be so damndable right?

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

      Reply

      • Trouble Says:

        Hate to burst your bubble, dude, but I’m not single. I got married in March. Apparently, my husband likes my toxic over-40 mix.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0

        Reply

      • LostSailor Says:

        Gotta say, Howard, that I found nothing objectionable in Trouble’s comment. She was merely describing the toxic effect of too much entitlement felt by both men and women when dating. I don’t think Michael is angry, just frustrated because his expectations of quick intimacy aren’t being met, primarily because those expectations are too high for results happening too soon. I don’t have to be “damndable” right, but having given it much thought, I believe I am…

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

        Reply

        • Howard Says:

          OK Lost Sailor, so why does Trouble sound angry? It’s interesting how when women do the same frustrated/angry bit, we seem to give them a pass. I never address her as woman, but she addresses me as dude. That is deliberately depersonalizing.

          Michael is frustrated/angry because he never understood the concept of process. In life, things have to be done a certain way. One can call it playing the game, but it’s much more than that. It’s striking the right balance where one is true to oneself and his or her values, but also giving people enough time to get you or enough rope to go hang themselves.

          Reading people and their needs and desires are also important. It doesn’t mean you will necessarily give them what they want. Often times, it’s more about giving them what they need, but in a palatable way where it can actually be consumed, rather than rejected.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 7

          Reply

          • LostSailor Says:

            Howard, I don’t disagree with most of that. But I don’t think Trouble is angry or frustrated. And I don’t take anything directed toward me in an online forum personally. If being called “dude” on the internet is the worst you get, you’re ahead of the game. I left SNAG-sailor behind a while ago…

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

            Reply

          • Trouble Says:

            I call my kids dude. :/ I think you’re looking for something to be offended about, Howard.

            I’m not angry, I’m blunt. Please don’t mistake my candor for anger. Men need to know that they do some stuff that really makes women uncomfortable, and it’s extremely unpleasant to be in those situations. I had some pretty scary dating experiences, and I felt like I learned everything the hard way. Dating at 39 was a lot different from dating at 25. There’s a reason why I say that I learned never to meet a guy for dinner early on (for at least 4-5 dates). It’s because on 3 separate occasions, men clearly expected sex following the meal, and I feel like two of them would have been fairly comfortable with taking it by force. In fact, I think they felt entitled to use my body for their gratification because they paid for dinner.

            There was the time when a guy walked me to my car in a dark parking lot, and then used his significantly larger body to pin me against my car, thrusting his tongue down my throat while he thrust his hand down my sweater. grabbing my nipples hard and painfully, and leaving bruises that lasted for days. I eventually pushed him off, got in my car and left, but I probably should have punched him in the solar plexus.

            Then there was the guy who followed up on a second date with a message that I was a “frigid bitch” because I didn’t sleep with him after his repeated attempts to pressure me to do so (after dinner).

            And, then, there’s the third guy who dropped me off at my house after dinner, and then tried to push his way into my house. I said, “No THANK YOU” pretty forcefully, and eventually he got the message, but he clearly felt entitled to more than some kissing on the doorstep. I guess he thought my resistance wasn’t forceful enough, and that if he just pushed hard enough, I’d succumb to his “charms.”

            Do most guys do those things? Not in my experience. But, I encountered several who did have those expectations and they were creepy as fuck. It’s a real issue that women deal with, and it’s probably slightly different from our perspective than it is from yours. I’m a small woman (5’4, 135). I’ve never been on a date with a man who couldn’t have forced sex on me, if he wanted to, simply by virtue of them outweighing me by a good 50-100 pounds and greater muscle mass. I grew extremely cautious and I consider myself lucky that I didn’t get victimized in any of these early experiences.

            Y’all almost never have to deal with that sort of thing, and I think it gives women a considerably different perspective on men’s “appropriate flirting” and expectations.

            Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 1

            Reply

  9. Eliza Says:

    Michael. When you wrote:
    “where do I find age and situation appropriate women who actually want to date – and by dating that includes intimacy, because without intimacy it is just a dumb guy being a woman’s entertainment committee.”

    Yes, for some women casual dating can include “intimacy”–and for some other women, intimacy comes with exclusivity (A LTR arrangement). That takes some time to develop. Not all women are fast on jumping into the sack with someone they just met over a few drinks (once)! That’s a one-night stand. Unless the woman is desperate. If you don’t want to get to know someone (as a person)–and just get intimate right away–save the money you would spend on dinners, and being that so-called “entertainment committee”–as you so eloquently put it…and hire a prostitute. Case solved. I do have to agree with Moxie…you comes across as rather bitter and as a very angry man. That scares women away–regardless of age.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 0

    Reply

  10. Allan Says:

    What an odd thread. A guy posts rather vague (and unfortunate) complaints about women in their forties not appreciating attention, with the responses that merely point out that the OP is dating out of his league and probably a creep for flirting. The follow up comments seem to equate flirting with groping. After that it doesn’t get any better with comments about prostitutes and twenty somethings angling for free meals.

    All I know is that I enjoy going out from time to time and having dinner with attractive women. Any discussion about long term relationships jumps the gun. Sure enough, it is true that I am rarely attracted to most women my age (late forties), but this is not a conscious decision, nor am I proud or ashamed of it. It’s just a fact, and it is my burden to deal with. There were cases where I have tried to spend time with women I found were unattractive, but sadly if the conversation moved to any discussion of long term romance I just became irritated, and that was no fun for anybody.

    So no matter what the context, if I meet a woman I am interested in, and I give her my number, nothing creepy should be seen in that behavior. As to any bullshit detector, I don’t see how it could be of any use because I myself would not know if I am interested in a long term relationship with someone until after perhaps several dates. If she’s using me for dinner, then I am fine with that, as long as no promises are made then no promises can be broken. I just want to just get out there and enjoy life and give negativity a wide berth because life is not a dress rehearsal.

    There is no inevitable role of victimizer and victim when men and women get together be it a one night (or one hour) stand, or a shared cup of coffee. I might have more emotional connection over the coffee, but in most any instance when I elect to spend time with a woman my desire is for both of us to feel a genuine, if superficial, human connection with an implied understanding that in this world people need to care for each other wherever possible.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 6

    Reply

  11. Badger Says:

    “Sorry, brah. Those younger women don’t know enough to realize what you’re really all about, what your issues are, etc. It’s very easy to get some young simpleton to be impressed by you and your apartment and your job and by the places you take her and gifts you buy her”

    Oh for crying out loud. Moxie hits hard on this “guys only want to date young women because they can be easily fooled” which sounds like a line straight out of a feminist textbook. It’s one thing when you’re talking about dating women straight out of college (or who never went to college).

    But this guy is talking about late 20’s/early 30’s women. Are you saying women are really that clueless all the way up through early middle age?

    Sounds kinda like you think all women who are younger than you are ignorant simpletons.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 7

    Reply

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Are you saying women are really that clueless all the way up through early middle age?

      I’m saying that most women in their late twentiies to mid thirties don’t have to settle for some mid-forties divorced guy with kids. They have the pick of the litter, so why would they want a guy that much older with such baggage? Either they don’t know that they have options because they were never groomed to want more in life, are using the guy in some way or are easily impressed by shallow things. So, you’re right. They’re not all simpletons. Some are quite aware of what they are doing and know they aren’t truly interested in the guy.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 2

      Reply

      • Allan Says:

        A girl in her twenties won’t view the decision as either / or. She can have it all, and why not?

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

        Reply

      • The Private Man Says:

        Such young women do indeed have the pick of the litter. They want a man with financial stability and confidence. Hmmmm, and at what age does that really kick in for men? It ain’t in their 20s and 30s…

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3

        Reply

        • Allan Says:

          As a guy in my late 40s, I’d love to flatter myself and believe that. I think it might also involve both parties realizing that nobody expects (or demands) that the perceived romance have any lasting significance, so you enjoy what you can while you can and be ready when the other person moves on.

          I call this the vacation effect. It allows everyone to pretend that there could be something more excepting that current circumstance will not allow “romance” to bloom. In reality everyone is relieved that there is no possibility of long term commitment with all the associated complexities and probable disappointment,

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

          Reply

      • Badger Says:

        “I’m saying that most women in their late twentiies to mid thirties don’t have to settle for some mid-forties divorced guy with kids. They have the pick of the litter”

        Are you serious? I’m not one of the bloggers who says women are washed up by age 28, but women in the 28-35 age group are already approaching the back end of the sexual marketplace, in that men in their age group now have the status and confidence to date younger women. And those girls are already saying their cohortmates are dating younger because the young-20’s girls are “easily fooled” and all the rest of it. It seems there’s one big bucket brigade of shaming younger women going on in chickville.

        Women in late young adulthood still have a good hand to play, but “pick of the litter” is not an accurate description.

        It also sounds like you’re highly invested in thinking that divorced single fathers are all basket cases with major issues, and that women who can’t see that must be deluded somehow. Isn’t it possible these are decent, put-together men and that the thirtysomething women they are dating see that and appreciate it as they grow out of the bad-boy mentality and seek a more domestic brand of masculinity?

        But aside from that, this really does sound like 40something ego protection, Moxie.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 9

        Reply

  12. Badger Says:

    “why is it that women in my age group and status (divorced w/ kids) are such head cases when it comes to dating and sex.”

    Well, we have to consider the fact that they are divorced to begin with. That fact either means they chased out a man when they are at the absolute nadir of SMV (and thus exhibit poor decisionmaking), or they were dropped by their man (which is bound to produce some funky psychological behavior).

    As the title of this blog suggests, there’s a reason they’re single.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 16

    Reply

    • Trouble Says:

      First, badger, your argument is known as a false dichotomy. People rarely break into just two distinct groups. Second, couldn’t it be argued (easily) that you fall into that same screwed up head case category, if you’re single, too?

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

      Reply

      • The Private Man Says:

        Bad ad hominem. Your argument is lost.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4

        Reply

        • Trouble Says:

          Try harder, private man. Follow Badger’s point to it’s inevitable conclusion. If women are head cases when they’re single in their 40s, what are men who are single in their 40s? How are single 40-something men any less damaged goods than their female counterparts?

          Personally, I don’t hold with Badger’s viewpoint. I remember telling my husband, back when we first met, that I had some baggage. He said (and I agree with him): “No one makes it to their 40s without some baggage, but I prefer to call it life experience and see it as a positive.” I think he’s right. We can dwell on how fucked up everyone else is, or we can do our best to handle our own business and be ready to meet someone who’s healthy and ready for a committed relationship.

          That’s the road we both took. I think it worked pretty well.

          Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1

          Reply

          • Badger Says:

            “How are single 40-something men any less damaged goods than their female counterparts?”

            But that question is irrelevant in this situation. The OP asked why the divorced 40something women he’s dating have been difficult to deal with. The reason is because he’s fishing in a pond of people who are going to be difficult to deal with, either because they’ve been dealt a great wrong or because they themselves have behaved selfishly.

            Answering his question doesn’t require any discussion of whether 40something divorced men are “damaged” (a word I didn’t use and don’t endorse).

            In any case, it’s become fashionable to insist on some kind of strict equality betwixt men and women (even as women have always insisted on different standards for themselves and men if it’s in their interests – e.g. to receive resources from men, drop out of the workforce, or demand lavish holiday treatments). But this is not logical, men and women are different and so the judgments we render against them will be different.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 5

            Reply

            • Trouble Says:

              I’ve never expected anything from a man that I wasn’t prepared to give. I guess I do insist on strict equality between men and women, because that’s how I live. I work in a male-dominated field, and it would not have been in my best interests to ask for special treatment. I’d have killed myself professionally, if I had. I don’t feel like it’s fair to expect equality on the job, and not provide it at home to your partner.

              On the flip side, I agree that there are many women (perhaps even the majority of women) who operate from a total double standard on many issues. I’ve never asked for resources from men (in fact, my husband and I always split costs when we were dating and I currently am the primary breadwinner in our house, though I expect this situation to shift when he gets finished with his degree). I never dropped out of the workforce, I worked full-time from the time I graduated from college and have never stopped. Nor do I expect lavish gifts (I’m not big into gifts to start with, I’m pretty basic and my favorite gift my husband ever gave me was two trees that he planted in our front yard).

              I actually know quite a few women like me, I have several good friends who are in the same field as me and operate using a pretty similar set of values. But, maybe we are more unique than I think we are. Or, maybe I just have a low threshold of tolerance for entitled princesses.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

              Reply

  13. Mr. R Says:

    Honestly, you know what I think the OP’s problem is? He is not dating women who are INTERESTED in him.

    If he would spend more time finding and going out with the women who are interested in him, he would have a better success rate.

    It sounds simple, but there is a deeper truth here.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

    Reply

    • LostSailor Says:

      If a man were to wait to only date women who are already interested in him, he’s likely to wait a long time. A woman who accepts a first date is by definition at least slightly interested and wants to find out if that interest can grow after getting to know a man better. It’s the man’s job, whether he likes it or not, to not only be interesting, but to work to grow attraction so that she is more interested.

      I still maintain that Michael is sabotaging himself by having expectations of intimacy before he’s worked to build that attraction.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 0

      Reply

      • Allan Says:

        ” A woman who accepts a first date is by definition at least slightly interested…”

        I wish that were uniformly true. I can think of a number of less straightforward reasons a woman (or a man) would go out with someone; possibly to simply have a fun night out with anyone, to try to instill jealousy in a current or former mate, to boost fragile self esteem, or even to seduce and spurn the opposite sex in an effort at payback for a past injustice from someone else (punish the innocent). Complicating matters is the human capacity to not even be aware of ulterior motives.

        The challenge is to be ready for all of this and to recognize the reality ASAP and deal with it as best one can, after all I might also want to get my ex jealous, so there could still be common ground. In other words prepare for the worst while hoping for the best.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

        Reply

        • LostSailor Says:

          I agree that a man or woman needs to be aware of the signals that damaged people like this will send. That’s why a first date, at least for me, is always only drinks for an hour or so. Of course, as you noted, this presupposes that you are self-aware enough to pick them up.

          Perhaps I’ve just been lucky or am good at screening out such people, since I’ve not encountered much of this since I started dating again a couple of years ago.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

          Reply

          • Chris Says:

            I agree with LS. I, myself have not encountered much “damaged” men in my dating life. Even the man who didn’t want to sit next to old people (damaged goods or he just didn’t like old people?) Trouble is right in that we all come with baggage EVEN young people – yes as we get older our “baggage” becomes heavier. But they are some young people who have some heavy bags themselves. I have had friends who entered the dating world after years of physical abuse from their fathers. They may have been 21 and beautiful but their baggage is hugh. I guess my question is: What do people consider damaged goods? I sat across men who would go on and on and on about the extreme sports they play and how much more fit they are compared to their friends – Damaged goods are just someone who really likes to work out and has an overinflated sense of self? I sat across men who tell me how desperately they want to get married, have children and would I be interested in helping them decorate their house – Damaged goods or someone who really wants to get married, have children and create a home? I had men rant about their ex wife on first dates and how much of a psycho she is- Damaged goods or just someone who isn’t over their divorce yet? And I had men try to be sexually with me on first dates – Damaged goods or someone who hasn’t gotten laid in awhile or who should have taken care of business before he went out on the date? To me nobody is damaged goods – I just think they are people who are good for me and there are people who aren’t and it’s up to us to know what we honestly want when we are dating (a relationship, a one night stand, a friend with benefits etc) And to know your audience….period – end of story. Just remember the person you are dating now or maybe even married to might have been or still is considered damaged goods to someone else but to you they fit what you are looking for.

            Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0

            Reply

            • LostSailor Says:

              Fair point. “Damaged” was the wrong word to use.

              We all come with baggage, some more than others. I would reserve “damaged” for those people who carrying steamer-trunks of baggage and who either can’t or won’t face the work of unpacking it, or who are completely unaware of the huge load they’re carrying. Someone working through issues aren’t damaged, even though they might not be right for me.

              I prefer to travel light, and prefer people who do the same.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

              Reply

              • Chris Says:

                Well said LS…well said. I think a good silly question on a first date is “How much luggage do you bring for a weekend vacation at a beach resort?” See what they say. If it’s more then one you know what that means….. hehe

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

                Reply

            • Eliza Says:

              Chris–to me, “damaged goods” means something that prevents someone from moving forward and/or allowing others into your life without any preconceived notions. If you don’t have baggage, whether it be financial or emotional in nature, then you are able to be open-minded enough to get to know someone based on the present, and assess who the person is sitting in front of you–based solely on their behavior towards you and others. Not based on your ex-boyfriend/ex-girlfriend or ex-spouse, or prior experiences. To be able to meet someone, and get to know them, purely without bringing your past into the picture means to have no baggage. Children are not “baggage”–merely a joy and added responsibility. You are only “damaged” by your experienced, if you don’t learn from them, and if you refuse or are incapable of moving on with a more positive approach. If you still harbor ill feelings towards someone you are no longer with–you have baggage. And it’s all up to you to let go of your past and live in the present. Or tie loose ends, and rid yourself of whatever financial or emotional BOND you have with someone you no longer have a present life with. That simple.
              We all have experienced life’s ups and downs. Do going through heartache is not baggage, unless one refuses to move on from it.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

              Reply

              • Chris Says:

                Eliza your post brings me to share a “date” I had yesterday. My friend had a BBQ and invited a gentleman over that he knows from work. The day was going great. He was funny, smart, around my age (42) and not bad looking. I was definately feeling him. My friends finally kicked us out at 8PM (they have two little ones) and we decided to go grab a drink at a local pub. That’s where it got ugly. He proceeded to tell me he is still involved with someone and how much he hates her and he wants to get out. I sat there dumbfounded at first because he gave no indication at the BBQ he was involved. I told him to man up and leave if he’s that unhappy and not to accept invitations to meet other women until he has left and “recovered” from this hateful relationship. The second kicker was he asked me out again right after I told him to man up……Good lord REALLY!!!!! I called my friend today and ask him if he knew of any of this and he said he knew there was a girl in the picture but he thought the relationship was ending. I should read him your post so maybe he will get a clue.

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

                Reply

  14. Mark Says:

    It’s often tough to make an informed opinion about something when a lot of the pieces of the puzzle are missing.

    Op’s letter is one of them. There just seem to bee too many pieces missing here. Important ones.

    For some reason he is finding a particular group ‘knows the drill’ and that a large percentage are head cases. That group is women around his age-give or take a few years. It’s very possible that there may be some, or even more than a few who have a screw loose or have other issues which makes dating them difficult. But to paint with a large brush? It is entirely possible that there is something else going on that we just don’t know about..

    I can appreciate when you say that you are there to date. If you are going out with women who know that then they understand that also. Nuff said. But to add that they are shocked when you flirt with them means something big is being lost in the translation as you are moving from point A to point B. Without some particulars one can only speculate. Maybe too far and too fast for some people’s liking?? dunno. Intimacy is often accompanied by attraction and comfort level. Comfort with themselves as well as the other person. So if they are not comfortable with you yet you may want to rethink how you are coming across.

    Best of luck.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

    Reply

  15. Gorb Says:

    Um, I have to contest something.

    It’s possible that amorphous Woman(tm) is having conversations behind the backs of all men, and this is true. However, …
    <I.I’m saying that most women in their late twentiies to mid thirties don’t have to settle for some mid-forties divorced guy with kids. They have the pick of the litter, so why would they want a guy that much older with such baggage? Either they don’t know that they have options because they were never groomed to want more in life, are using the guy in some way or are easily impressed by shallow things. So, you’re right. They’re not all simpletons. Some are quite aware of what they are doing and know they aren’t truly interested in the guy.

    This is spltting hairs.

    as a guy approaching 40, I have this to say.

    I’ve found it almost absurdly easier to get and keep attention from 25-33 year-old women than it’s been for women 34-35+. 40 – year-old women, by and large, are almost impossible.

    Here’s why.

    – In their late 20’s and early 30’s, most women are not yet bitter.
    – The ones left single after 38 or so are usually extremely bitter, divorced, or “on the clock” – they have a Schedule, and You Must Meet It or else.

    In fact, I found the opposite.

    When I acquired interest from a late 20’s/early 30’s woman, about 10-15 years age gap difference, they genuinely seemed interested in me. Women over this age, almost to a woman, seemed interested in me solely for the function I could perform. This is pretty solid. It’s not absolute, but was more – or – less a repeatable trend.

    Younger women were friendlier, more open, and perhaps these same women by 35 will be married; perhaps it’s just the single ones who are bitter and self-obsessed at any age, but there’s just a higher percentage of them still single at 40.

    On the other hand, it’s consistent: All of the men I know who are divorced or single from 35-45 are almost all dating women at least 7 and more usually 10 years younger than they are. Some of them married such women.

    I’ve got to tell you – your experience is not what I’ve seen on the dating market. At all.

    There’s a lot of damaged men and women out there, and they tend to remain single in greater proportions past 30 than before the age of 30.

    But that said, as a man–

    The woman I’ve been dating for 2 years and who I will likely marry is 11 years younger than I am. And she not only has no problem with this, she thinks it’s fine.

    On the other hand, my sister, who is roughly my age and married, never, ever, ever stops ribbing me about it, calling me a man-child. She keeps pointing to her single female friends who are my own age, and saying, see, there’s a real woman.

    Um – all of her single friends are universally bitter, self-obsessed, extremely rigid if not fossilized in their ways, difficult to be with and often rude.

    MORE TO THE POINT:

    The women in the 35-45 age bracken (I don’t know about older women) have almost *grotesque* expectations of men they want to date.

    Paying for extravagant dates; long, complex and carefully judged courtships; being required to meet exacting standards (which they don’t impose on themselves)–

    Like something out of “The Rules”, or 1957.

    On the other hand, the younger women (who will date older guys) are almost always

    – much more gender-equity balanced, taking responsibilities themselves
    – Often far better with money than the older generation (as in, they surprisingly seem to have some) – the older women, especially those edging closer to 45, often seme to be living hand-to-mouth and searching for a retirement pension in a man, or a comfort zone. Men by and lartge aren’t looking for this. The younger women are also surprisingly less interested in this.
    – Much omre fun and fun to spend time with
    – Much less hung up about sex. Damn, but do the older women have sexual hangups for even relatively vanilla sex, and are often obsessed with self-image and weird ideas concerning sex.

    The younger generation – the 20’s – from what I can tell are almost libtertine in their approach. I’ll come clean and say that I dated three younger women (22-24) when I was 35, and by and large, they even shocked me – they were more aggressive, sexually, and forthcoming, and more direct, and quicker to get into bed, than most *men* are.

    There may have been some self-selection, but this is the exact same story I hear from young men these days. if you’re in your early 20’s, it seems like one of the best times to be male ever, as far as dating is concerned.

    So I’ve got to tell you, from a man’s perspective, and a guy who’s more or less altogether if a bit roughing out along the edges, …

    The women my age are just not the same as the women 10 years younger. By far. The difference is so shocking I can’t believe you’d focus an article like this.

    I’m sure there’s a lot of difficult to match men in this age group, too. But they still seem to have far more options than their female peers.

    It’s just the paranoia and bitterness of women over 35 and still dating that seems to come out like a hammer all the time. It might be the knowledge that they’re not pulling what they did before, and they expect it.

    I don’t know. But the effect is real.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 10

    Reply

    • Trouble Says:

      This is the same justification I used to use to justify dating men ten years younger: men in their 40s weren’t attracted to me, were bitter and difficult to get along with, had absurd expectations, overestimated their attractiveness, etc.

      It was absurdly easy for me to date younger guys…and, they were cute, interesting, and generally hadn’t gone through a nasty divorce that had tarnished their view of women. They weren’t put off by my career as many men my age seemed to be, and they seemed to appreciate my financial success and general worldliness.

      I really think, however, that it was much more about me. I hadn’t accepted my own aging process, I was still looking backwards wishing I was ten years younger, and frankly, wanting to relive those years I’d missed in a miserable marriage.

      When I did, and I started working on coming to grips with my past and my regret and learning to be content in my current circumstances, I found plenty of nice men my own age to date. And, this is in a conservative southern town where men outnumber women in my age group by 10%. I stopped trying to pretend that I was 40 but really looked 30 or 35. I realized that it wasn’t so much about THEIR bitterness, but mine.

      It’s funny, because shortly after I started owning my own responsibility in my life circumstances and learning to be happy in them, I met my husband, a man also in his 40s. And, he wasn’t bitter, and he wasn’t jaded and cynical, and he was impressed by my passion for my work, and he loved my kids.

      Coincidence?

      Probably not.

      Of course, as always, ymmv.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 2

      Reply

    • Chris Says:

      Gorb if your going to post a comment at 4AM in the morning can you at least be sober…that post made no sense except that you like young women and hate “old” women.

      And PS if the young woman you are dating are such sexual beasts why are you writing on a blog at that hour and not having wild monkey sex with one of them.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 4

      Reply

      • Allan Says:

        Yes, that would explain a lot. If he dabbled in MDMA, he would be all lovey dovey.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

        Reply

      • Trouble Says:

        He probably isn’t having wild monkey sex with them. This is an attempt at manipulation. A lot of men realize that women are competitive with other women. When a man points out a woman’s competitors, he’s attempting to kick that competitive impulse into overdrive and shift her behavior in a way that benefits him. In other words, “If you don’t want to do this, there are plenty of younger and more attractive women who will.”

        Relatively early on in being single, a man played this game with me. On our second date, he put a lot of pressure on me to have sex with him. I refused. He said, “You are going to have a very difficult time dating in this town if you act like a frigid bitch. There are a lot of single women out there, and most of them are comfortable enough with their sexuality to want to have sex on the 2nd or 3rd date.”

        He’s right…there are a lot of women out there who fuck on the 2nd and 3rd date. But those women aren’t my competition, because I’m not looking for a man who expects to fuck on the 2nd or 3rd date. That may make it harder for me to find a warm body in my bed, but that’s the price I’m prepared to pay for my ethical standards.

        Similarly, Gorb’s post…there are 25-30 year old women who don’t mind dating into the 40s. But, those girls aren’t my competition, because I want a man who’s comfortable with being 40, and isn’t trying to act like he’s still 25.

        It’s a subtle form of negging coupled with a scarcity argument.

        How do I think we should respond to those kinds of games? “Fine. Go get one.”

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

        Reply

        • Trouble Says:

          I wrote the above in present tense, but I was correct. I did meet a man who didn’t want to fuck on the 2nd or 3rd date and who preferred dating women his own age, and married him.

          Maybe it took me slightly longer because I had those standards, but I’m okay with that. He was totally worth the wait.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

          Reply

        • Allan Says:

          It’s a numbers game, not sports. No sane man is trying to find out who will beat who in “competition”, he just puts himself out there and sees who responds. If he is also interested, then it’s a win-win.

          Younger women are more inclined to enjoy the simple offer presented, and if the man is a nice guy, he will treat her with tenderness and compassion knowing that some day her phone number may be disconnected and her email is possibly a throw away.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2

          Reply

          • Gorb Says:

            Look, I may have been exhausted and tired, and slightly incoherent, but the point is still valid.

            Younger women are easier to date. That’s not really hard to argue with.

            First, if you’re together you can date younger women. This has its advantages or disadvantages.

            I’m not trying to act like I’m 25: I’m not trying to make women compete.

            The point is simple:

            – Younger women often have fewer expectations
            – Younger women are often not “on the clock” and pushing men for serious investments until it’s appropriate
            – a greater proportion of older women (and likely men) who are single are bitter or damaged or single for a reason involving being difficult to be with

            Additionally:
            – Younger women are oftne more generous and will even pay for dates
            – Concomitantly, younger women seem to have a greater sense of gender-neutral roles, which is a massive plus for most men (ie, they don’t require pontless tests of chivalry)
            – Younger women tend to be both more open and, as a result, more natural and honest with other people (especially their sexual partners and dates)

            These are trends, not absolutes. But one this is absolutely, definitely true:

            – Younger women tend to be much, MUCH more open about sex and sexuality in general, and by the third date, if you haven’t gone to bed, you usually never will.

            What was written above was almost like a shaming tactic: Any man who dates younger women is trying to be 25, not 35 or40.

            This could be true.

            But you might want to consider this: For whatever reason, younger women are often just more open and better as partners – generally – than older women who are still single.

            I detect some shaming language here, being used against men. Please. Not necessary.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 5

            Reply

            • Gorb Says:

              Shaming men by calling them children or saying they’re trying to pretend they’re younger (ie, they’re not serious) is not addressing the issue.

              The issue is that, as both I and many men have found, women in the 38-45 and plus age range seem to generally have a much more difficult, and less flexible, set of expectations to meet. Often, they’re pickier, more troublesome, less personable and *very, very* touchy about many issues.

              I’ll bet younger men are mostly easier to deal with, too.

              These are just observations, but shaming any man for dating a younger women is just sour grapes. Nothing else.

              I wasn’t addressing any particular woman’s value in the dating market. I was just making a sociological comment on patterns I’ve noticed. That’s all.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

              Reply

              • Chris Says:

                Gorb nobody is arguing that young women offer something different then older women. But to argue they are more viable than older women is just a ridiculous argument. You seem to forget the saying “Show me a beautiful woman and I’ll show you a guy that sick of her chit”. What younger women offer you is the opportunity to hold off on marriage and kids a little while longer – period…end of story!!!!! If a women wants kids she does not have the luxury to sit and wait till she’s ready for it like men can and will do. I can bet some of the over 38 year old women you speak of probably dated men like you in their “youth”…. pinning their hopes of marriage and children on you and when they finally realize you are not ready they are at an age of what you call washed up. Your girlfriend doesn’t have a problem with your age because I am sure you have spoken of wanting to get married and having children – so why should she care about your age her only concern is that you are ready and she is young and fertile. Why don’t you ask your girlfriend if she would still date you if you said you want to wait another 10 years before you even think about marriage and kids. If she is smart and has not fed into the whole I can still have kids in my 40’s with no problem bullcrap that women have been fed she would tell you adios. And that adios would be because of her age and her window of opportunity not being wasted on someone who can bear children well into his 60’s.

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

                Reply

                • Trouble Says:

                  My 45-year-old cousin is currently in the process of divorcing the husband she married when she was 25 and he was 45. Twenty years down the road, and now she’s 45 and he’s 65, and she’s decided that he’s too old for her. It’s a shitty business, and I don’t applaud her actions, but on the flip side, who’s really surprised by all this? She is and was a beautiful entitled girl/woman who married him so that she wouldn’t have to work and could be kept in style. And now, he’s considerably less stylish, so being the shallow person she is, she’s trading him in for a newer model with less mileage.

                  It’s great if you can pull a 25-year-old at 45. But can you keep her?

                  I pulled a couple of 20-somethings when I was 39. But, it was for entertainment value, not long-term relationship potential. They’re fun. They’re bright and shiny and adorable. But, they aren’t equals.

                  Ultimately, while fun and games are fun in the short-term, in the long term, I wanted a man who was an equal (or really, more than an equal), and who was going to be in it for the long haul (you know, the old-fashioned until death do us part).

                  I don’t doubt you can pull 20-somethings for short-term fun. But, what percentage of 25-year-old women want to breed with a man the age of their father?

                  Like my cousin, I’d say the odds are good that they’re girls with sugar daddy issues and an entitlement complex. Because truthfully: most 20-something girls have better options, unless you’re loaded.

                  Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

                  Reply

                  • offensivedan Says:

                    Gorb is right. I adopt his comment completely. The fact is that it is a waste of time to date 35 yr old women and older. It’s like deaing with spoiled, demanding and entitled children. They all expect you to pay for the dates even if they are interested. Gorb keep preaching and ignore these comments from these older women.

                    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

                    Reply

                    • dimplz Says:

                      Sorry, Dan, I think you missed when the lifeguard announced it’s “Adult Swim” time. You might want to take your noodle and swim over to the Fox and Friends blog.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  16. Gorb Says:

    @DrivingMeNutes,

    You had it bang-on.

    DrivingMeNutes says:
    …My experience, in dating, is that the older the woman the higher her expectations, whereas it should be the opposite.

    Yes. Strangely, I’ve discovered this more or less everywhere. The younger women should be harder to get. They’re not. It’s just bizarre. The older women are unbelievably picky and extremely, almost aggressively judgmental about everything. And yet they’re not interested in experiencing that from a man. It’s just much easier to relax and be natural with younger women.

    Maybe there’s something messed up about that generation, andf it’s not an age thing? It could be.

    Is there some sense of entitlement operating here?

    The “older women” (late thirties and forties) generally expect meals and lots of courting, and sex is almost never on the table on the first few dates.

    Yeah, this is true. It was true 15 years ago. Alas, times have changed.

    My rule, as I’ve experienced it: If there’s no sex by date 3, often 2, there *never will be*.

    This is more or less reality for young people today. In fact, there may need to be sex before any relationship of any kind if you’re 19 or 20, now.

    Younger women, aside from being more physically attractive in general, are usually open to anything for the dates, are more generous,

    As I mentioned. I’ve had 29 year-old women pay for dates in their entirety for me – and happily accept reciprocation, without any hesitation. Older women I’ve been with have generally balked at paying a penny.

    and as a kicker, they are more carefree about sex and intimacy, or whatever. Or, at least, if they harbor unreasonably high expectations, they don’t make those expectations known in the most socially-inappropriate way possible. Thats in general.

    I have to agree with this.

    In general, it’s just easier, in every way possible, to be with a 27 year-old than a 40-year-old.

    Of course, they’re more attractive; but that doesn’t account for being more genial, laid-back, flexible, better-mannered and less self-entitled. They SHARE. it’s not a one-way street.

    I have no idea what the 20-something men are like.

    I don’t agree that older women are stuck in a different decade, as Moxie suggests, when dating was easier. Things haven’t changed that much. It’s that THEY are older – they are not the same person they were in their twenties, regardless of which decade they live in. Dating has always been difficult for older women. These women who’ve been supposedly off the market for some time are mentally stuck in theiir youth, when men would fall at their feet regardless of how insufferable they were. It was easy back then, and they still think it should be easy like that. I’m sure “older” men are like this too but I don’t have experience with them, other than myself. And, I like to think my expectations are pretty reasonable.

    I go with this one. I’m not super attractive, but not awful, and I’m reasonably confident and socially well-adjusted, and well-liked. I get along with everyone very well and people seek me out to be with. I could be a freak, it’s possible, but evidence doesn’t seem to suggest this.

    And I’ve had much more luck with younger women. It’s just weird.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

    Reply

  17. Jay Says:

    So basically, from reading these comments, if you have any kind of expectations or boundaries or life experience, you’re impossible to date and have too much baggage, because younger women are too young for these things and thus easier to nail and hang with. Sounds like a good long term plan these men have. If you can’t accept and are threatened that a woman has just as much life experience, perhaps more even, than you, then stick to the younger crowd. When they hit 30 or so and realize you’re a waste of time, they’ll move on and be the ‘head cases’ that you just can’t deal with. Funny thing is, these young women that are so awesome will get older. And smarter, and start having expectations of you to live up to. It’s a part of maturing and men that are endlessly hung up on younger chicks can’t seem to get past. They want to desperately hang on to their youth, and not deal with the issues older age has for men and women.

    Younger women aren’t my competition, and I’m 32 so I don’t think I’m up to that “un-dateable” age group of the ancient over 35 crowd yet, but if that’s all a guy wants and isn’t about getting serious, whatever. He can have them. I’ve matured enough and had enough life experience to know what I want, and it isn’t old guys who can’t grow up. Most girls in their 20s aren’t even sure of who they are and they haven’t hit that part of life where things need to get real, you need to have some goals and start filtering out the entitled man-children and losers. Just my observation of men that automatically write off older women because of their ‘baggage’. Everyone has baggage and unresolved issues. Don’t think you’re any different, because we all do. Life hurts us all and we learn from those experiences. If you want someone who is more childish, then yeah, you’re likely to have someone with less experience and so called baggage. But even then, they’ll still have some. Most likely daddy issues if they’re dating 10-20+ years their senior. But if that’s what you want, then go for it. I’d rather have a guy who hasn’t turned into a misogynistic ageist bitter man. Because I can generally spot those out rather quickly. Someone 20 probably can’t or just doesn’t care at that age. But she will eventually. It’s not a long term plan, it’s for people who want to have an endless infatuation stage and not have to deal with anything real.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3

    Reply

  18. Maria Says:

    Is funny. I am 42 and I have been divorced for a bit over a year. And this is going to sound stupid but is coming from the bottom of my heart. I want to date, and I want a relationship, and I couldn’t care less about where the guy takes me out to dinner. He could take me on picnic with home made food for all I care. All I want is love and honesty and decency. Why don’t you tel me where can I find that? Because all men I have come accross so far, age appropriate, are only interested in dating 20 year olds!!!!! Any by the way, my children are pretty grown with their own interests. I have plenty of time to date but I just can’t meet anyone who would even consider, dating in his age range.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

    Reply

  19. coptic777 Says:

    “Dude, you’re scary. You’re very, very angry” Yea I got that impression as well & I am a man that is told that I need to smile more often & I even I can see it in the OP’s opening statement.

    ” What they say to your face and what they say behind your back are two different stories.They’re not the least bit invested in you. That’s why they don’t care. I do so love how men get such an ego boost from getting attention from younger women” Moxie is right again. I mean seriously the OP does not already know this???

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

    Reply

  20. JB Says:

    “I do so love how men get such an ego boost from getting attention from younger women..”
    This and other snarky comments lead me to believe that the “really, really angry” one is the columnist herself. There is nothing “scary” or untoward about the OP’s note. The slashing, unfeeling sarcasm at points in the response, meanwhile, shows someone just a little too high on herself as a so-called dating guru. Keep giving advice, fine; but take some of your own, too, and take a look in the mirror now and then. You might be the scary one.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2

    Reply

Leave a Reply

© 2013-2017 And That's Why You're Single All Rights Reserved