Dear Single Ladies…Stop Being So Difficult

Name: Jose
Age: 46
State: NY
Question: I would like a woman’s perspective on this scenario. A woman contacted me on a dating website and we spoke on the phone after a couple of emails. She is 49 and never married. She lives in the Bronx and doesn’t have a car due to the availability of public transportation. I live in Westchester about 20 minutes away and do have a car.

The conversation of dating came up and she mentioned that the women these days make her look bad because they give it up so quickly.  She also mentioned the last guy she dated ended it after 3 dates because she didn’t have a car.

My male perspective on it is this; her 3 date guy did all the commuting, possibly all the paying of the dates and barely got a goodnight kiss after 3 dates. If he was on the verge of having things escalate more physically, he would have continued to date her regardless of her car-less lifestyle. But the physical part was probably not on the horizon. The excuse he gave was that he wanted her to have a car to be able to go to him sometimes when in all probabilty, he was invested way more than her without any kind of payoff.

Is she a time-waster? I can see this scenario playing out again and if I can learn from this other guy’s experience with her, it would save me a lot of time and expense (gas, bridge toll, drinks,etc). I am surprised she shared both of those tidbits of info. Its like she was saying “the guy has to come to me and we go out and he will have to do this for a while before he gets any action”.

And thats fine if thats the message. I understand that going in. But am I misinterpreting that message? Thats why I would like your opinion. I do have other ladies I am in contact with on same site so I do have other options.

 

The truth is that this woman hasn’t a clue why she is single. She’s told herself that it’s because she, unlike all those sluts out there, values herself more. She honestly believes that a man should hike all the way from Westchester or where ever just to spend time with her. She doesn’t feel the need to make any concessions. She’s not going to commute, she’s not going to date locally, and she certainly isn’t going to have sex. Sex, for her, is just a means t an end. Something she has to endure in order to keep a man. It’s certainly not for enjoyment or to feel closer to a guy. It’s a tool. That’s it.  Fun fact: People who actually enjoy sex have it. They don’t look for reasons to abstain.

She’s laying out her terms right upfront. “Don’t expect me to put out any time soon. You need to prove yourself to me.” Which clearly works since she’s 50 and alone. She has convinced herself that all men want is sex and that the problem is them, not her.

Yes, she’s a time waster. She truly believes that that guy ditched her after 3 dates because she didn’t have a car. Um, no. He got rid of her because he wasn’t getting a return on investment.

I am surprised she shared both of those tidbits of info. Its like she was saying “the guy has to come to me and we go out and he will have to do this for a while before he gets any action”.

I’m not surprised she told you these things. You are correct in your interpretation of her statements. She was telling you, before you even meet, what to expect from her. Which would be nothing. She might even be feeling a bit guilty or defensive, which could also explain her truthiness. She wanted you to validate her selective memory and reasoning.  That’s what your purpose is…to validate her choices and the fact that she’s 50 and single.If you chose to see her despite these revelations, then that meant you really liked her.  What women need to understand is that she might reveal to a guy that she attends furry conventions and eats melted cheese off a plate and he’ll still go out with her. As long as there is a chance he’ll get laid, he’s going in. Especially if the woman makes it a point to say that he won’t get laid. The gauntlet has been thrown. That’s like waving a red flag in front of a bull. (And I honestly believe that women like this know that, which is why they do it. They want the guy to try just so they can feel desired.)

People don’t end up 40 or 50 and never married by accident. They either chose that route or they continued repeating bad behavior without ever doing a little inventory and examining their choices and belief systems. If she were one of those women who genuinely chose to be single, then she’d probably be a little less rigid about things.The fact that she’s still clinging to stupid rules and has deluded herself into believing that she could be 50 and live in the Bronx and men would still schlep to date her tells me she’s single by circumstance, not choice.

I included the meme above because a friend created it for me when I told him a woman once asked for a refund for a speeddating event because we changed the venue. The new venue was on the same side of town as the old one and was maybe 15-20 blocks away. But she wanted a refund because she’d have to take an extra bus to get there. Oh. So, what would she do if she met a great guy and he lived in that neighborhood? What then? Ohhh. Right. He’s supposed to come to her. Good luck with that.

At a certain point, people need to dispose of the rigidity and rules. Sorry, kids. But once you hit your 40′s, you just don’t have a leg to stand on like you used to. People will tolerate a level of difficulty if there is a pay off of some kind, like you’re hot or rich or have a great apartment or are great in bed. But no matter how great you think you might be, once you hit your late thirties and older, there will always be someone hotter, richer, better in bed, etc..and younger.

Women like the one from this letter are all over Manhattan. You can spit in the blogosphere and read posts written by women just like this one. 32, 35, 37, 40, 43 and kvetching about their dates. Things will never change for them. They’re lost causes, desperately trying to re-write history. They, like the single woman in this letter, are time wasters.

Nobody likes the idea of “settling” or compromising. But that’s exactly what we need to do if, by a certain point, we haven’t found what we believe we are looking for. The rules and lists need to go and you need to be more flexible and accommodating. If you refuse, then you don’t really want a relationship. You just want to be right. And right you will be. In your mind, at least. You can skip around your apartment, by yourself, telling all your friends and followers and readers how “right” you are. If that sates you, then God bless ya.

But if you have to continuously remind everybody how right you are and how happy you are and how you’re soooooo much better than everybody else, that might be a sign that you’re not as happy being right as you think. Step aside, ladies. Because all those “sluts” out there?  The ones who happily plan the date and pay their way and put out? They’re taking your men.

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103 Responses to “Dear Single Ladies…Stop Being So Difficult”

  1. Horace Says:

    Same story. I recently stopped seeing a girl after three dates because I would be the one to text first, ask for each date, and though we made out on the first date didn’t feel it escalating physically at all. If anything, it was de-escalating. I wasn’t sure what I was in it for at that point. Sex isn’t the only thing, but as a man it’s still a priority.

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    • Howard Says:

      I absolutely love Moxie’s take on this one. And let me add the guys to some of the same advice. Luckily most of the guys don’t complain. And some guys like being single and playing the field.

      But unfortunately, sex is such a potent weapon, that guys waste time on women like this, even though all the signs are clearly in their face. This is the reason women have become programmed to do this behavior. Men were playing along their whole life. What happens is that men grow older and stop playing along, except for the foolish few. These women don’t adjust to the new realities. As crazy as it may sound. She may even find her counterpart who has stayed in that mode, expecially if he is ten years older or overweight or clueless, and sees her as a prize.

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      • Eliza Says:

        Why do you consider a woman that actually wants to get to know a man (personality wise), prior to getting intimate to be a woman that is using “sex as a weapon”? What is so wrong with wanting to get comfortable with someone before being totally vulnerable with them? Any man that has daughters will respect and understand that women these days are faced with many issues…which include psychotic, twisted and mentally ill men. A smart woman will weigh things in her mind, and if she wants a long term relationship, she is not going to act like some prostitute and open her legs so soon. Why? Because as sexual as she may be…it will naturally occur in due time.

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        • Howard Says:

          Eliza, it’s the crazy hoop jumping. My question to you. How would you feel, if a man you don’t even know, read you this type of riot act? The arrogance and temerity you would probably retort. Yes she should want to get to know this guy well before sex happens. However, we need to not put people on the spot.

          That women have been doing this type of thing to guys, and getting away with it because young men are in oiverdrive through testosterone, does not mke it right. As guys get older, they just don’t put up with the rude behavior anymore. It’s not so much what is done, it’s the way it’s done.

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        • cheshirecat Says:

          “Why do you consider a woman that actually wants to get to know a man (personality wise), prior to getting intimate to be a woman that is using “sex as a weapon”? ”

          I should think three dates should be enough information for her to know whether she feels attracted to him or not. Otherwise, she’s stringing him along for her own self-validation, and wasting his time. He’s been LJBF’d. The promise of sex is the bait to keep him around.

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    • bree Says:

      Here’s my thing on sex. If your a woman who is Christian and desires to be in a long-term relationship prior to having sex with a man whats wrong with that? If the woman didn’t have morals or standars and slept with every guy who wanted to hit she would be a hoe. Any man thats semi attracted to a woman in some way shape or form wants to have sex with her.
      But if she chooses not to have sex with a man until she feels comfortable enough and feels that he will be in a long-term relationship with her she is rigid?
      I don’t know how people’s minds work, but to me this is azz backwards?
      Reality for women – If a woman is seeing a man that she likes and is attracted to and he is a good guy and treating her well she will want to be in a relationship with him and potentially be his wife and the mother of his children, Not just fu** him until she finds someone better to fu** or until she just gets bored of him.
      Now granted there are women who do just want sex. They are the exceptions, Not the rules, at least based on what I see and hear. Even most successful women want a man in their life and a husband at some point.
      Most girls are raised to be mothers and wives, while boys are reared to work hard, make money and spread their seed. Playa’s are praised amongst their brethren; while girls are taught by mom and dad to keep their legs closed and not get pregnant by a boy unless he wants to marry her and stay chaste. Even in the bible virgins are revered. So why are folks surprised at how men and women act as far as sex goes? Why are men still complaining about women not wanting to “give it up” right away? These are things that are ingrained in most every women to Not give it up. Not only that, if a woman’s goal is to have a long-term relationship with the man and a future potential husband and she sleeps with the men she dates after 2 or 3 dates and they do disappearing acts then how is the woman getting what she wants? The sex isn’t that important to the woman. For many women sex really is a means to an end because it has to be. It’s not so much what they want, it’s what the men want. They want the man in every sense of the word; it’s men who want the sex, and depending on the man they can take or leave the woman. There is a series on a blog site called Madame Noir where men are interviewed and asked questions about women and relationships.
      Now these are a panel of black men, but from my experience when it comes to sex most all men want it as soon and as easy as they can get it regardless of race, culture and ethnicity. None of that really matters…..ALL men love sex and want it, bottom line. All these men attested to that and said that when they fall in love it’s kinda by accident. Unlike women they aren’t dating a woman to find a wife, especially if they are really young, like under 30. Granted yes more older men do date to find a future wife, but that still doesn’t change the fact that every man I know wants to have sex with a woman Before Marriage. In fact they have said outright they won’t marry a woman they haven’t had sex with.
      Men need to either accept and be cool with women being sluts and whores if they want sex or accept and be cool with a woman being a “good girl” and not giving it up too soon before she finds out if she will just be a jump-off. But u cannot have it both ways…..women cannot be sluts and good girls. Pick one or the other fella’s.

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      • Ashley Says:

        I think a woman’s sexuality should never be up for judgment, period. Not be other women, and not by men. You’re right, there is a total virgin-whore dichotomy and women are pressure to be a “lady in the streets, but a freak in the sheets” and that mentality is so damaging. It does nothing but sets women up for failure and sets up men for disappointment. It’s a completely ridiculous standard to have. No amount of sex is right or wrong. A man can either accept how fast or much women have sex, or they don’t and can get lost.

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        • Eliza Says:

          That’s right! I agree 100%. Any man that can’t respect a woman’s choice to be sexual when she is ready–should get lost! It’s all about respecting another person’s boundaries. It’s such a shame society today has created this pressure on women. I hear men complaint and comment constantly that they want to meet a nice girl, someone with values…yet, they contradict that by getting frustrated when she doesn’t get sexual within the 3rd date! Totally absurd.

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      • Eliza Says:

        Thank you Bree! I completely agree! You can’t expect a woman to open her legs so soon, and still respect her. You can’t have it both ways. There are women who do love sex, however, an intelligent woman that is also aware of all the STD’s out there, will take precautions by getting to know a guy and see if he is the type to sleep with anyone out there. You need to be careful these days. One or 3 dates don’t tell you whether that person sitting in front of you is healthy, physically and/or emotionally. Consider this, when you get intimate with someone…you are very vulnerable. As a woman, you are alone with a man, usually in his place, but you are basically vulnerable…and if you are with a man about to have sex…and you don’t know him, you are pretty much taking a chance that he is not some psychotic rapist or killer. Sex is not worth getting AIDs or being hurt or killed. Any understanding man will see this side of the coin, and put themselves in a ladies’ shoes and see why a woman may proceed with caution. If a man has good intentions, and truly likes you, he will wait. Not saying he will wait months, but he will be reasonable in waiting until a woman is comfortable enough to be that vulnerable. I understand Bree’s point of view. What is it that men want?! A slut? or a nice girl? Which is it? Why would a man want to be with a woman that opens her legs for every and any man? I really don’t get it.

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        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          You can’t expect a woman to open her legs so soon, and still respect her.

          Speaking of special magical cookies, from what fortune cookie did you pluck this gem? You need to stop listening to all your single gal pals. You ladies repeat this garbage over and over, but none of you acknowledge how inconsistent and illogical you all are.

          One or 3 dates don’t tell you whether that person sitting in front of you is healthy, physically and/or emotionally.

          Hon, there are women on Dr. Phil every other week talking about how they found out their husbands were pedophiles and sociopaths. Time is not an accurate barometer or anything. He could be carrying an STD that he picked up years before and not even know it. Your argument is illogical and juvenile, borne of too many Cosmos with your friends and bad after school specials.

          Consider this, when you get intimate with someone…you are very vulnerable. As a woman, you are alone with a man, usually in his place, but you are basically vulnerable…and if you are with a man about to have sex…and you don’t know him, you are pretty much taking a chance that he is not some psychotic rapist or killer

          Unless he’s a true sociopath, the chances of that happening are almost nil. But you go ahead and spread your paranoia. I guess that’s easier than saying, “I don’t like sex and/or have horrible taste in men and therefore don’t trust myself.” Because that is what it all comes down to. Your choices.

          The reason women find themselves in the position to be called sluts to their face or get pumped and dumped is because they had sex with a guy they knew was an asshole. In fact, that’s probably what attracted them to the guy in the first place. But he was good looking or charming and showered her with attention, so she ignored his assholeishness.

          Any understanding man will see this side of the coin, and put themselves in a ladies’ shoes and see why a woman may proceed with caution.

          Well, no, because most men (most adults, really) know that the chances of getting the AIDS or being raped/maimed/killed are pretty slim. Most men also know that they aren’t psychotic abusers. So when a woman pulls out the “I’m afraid you’ll rape me and give me AIDS” argument, he’s going to bail. Why? Well, for one he’s offended because she essentially just called him a AIDS-riddled rapist. For two? He thinks the woman is psychotic. Like, in the literal sense. A paranoid delusional. Because thinking like that IS paranoid and delusional. Which is ironic, since she’s standing there accusing him of possibly being nuts.

          If a man has good intentions, and truly likes you, he will wait. Not saying he will wait months, but he will be reasonable in waiting until a woman is comfortable enough to be that vulnerable.

          Try a couple weeks. Max. And only if she’s really attractive and young. Some marginally attractive 40something woman? Unlikely. He might just go sleep with someone else while this marginally attractive woman’s fears of catching AIDS is alleved. But the more likely choice is that he’ll blow her off because she’s not worth the time or effort in his mind, as he can spit and find someone younger, better looking and not mentally deficient.

          Why would a man want to be with a woman that opens her legs for every and any man? I really don’t get it.

          Well, for one, he wouldn’t know what she has done in the past. So there goes that part of your ridiculous argument. For two,if he’s judging her for something he’s also done (and with her) he’s an asshole, so good riddance. For three, men like women who like sex.

          It’s amazing to me how women like you can sit there and repeat this junk. Especially when it’s abundantly clear you can’t manage to meet any decent men that you want to date. You blame the men for their lack of social skills or rudeness, not once considering that their “rudeness” is really just their lack of interest. You also can’t stand that the best you can do based on what you bring to the table is the guy in the rented apartment with the over flowing cat litter box.

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        • Joey Giraud Says:

          Why would a man want to be with a woman that opens her legs for every and any man?

          I wouldn’t want that woman.

          Can’t speak for other men.

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  2. offensivedan Says:

    Based on personal experience, if a broad tells you anything about not “putting out” on the first date or complains about men “pawing” all over her, STOP. You are wasting your time and money. I went out with this good looking lady a few weeks ago and the topic of conbversation changed to sex. It was not me, she brought it up. Anyway, she complained how guys tried to sleep with her on the second date and that’s not how she is as she respects herself and her body. Well, I was not expecting to have sex that soon but I also was not about to wait five months on the hope I might get laid. Next.

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    • Joey Giraud Says:

      To me, a woman talking like this on a date is simply advertising her cluelessness. Real stupid can cancel a freight train of sexy.

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  3. Trouble Says:

    I think there’s a difference between not having sex on the second date, and giving men the impression that you’re a frigid dinner whore. I think that the last two posts about sluttitude show that there are a lot of guys who don’t want to think that a woman is giving it up to everyone on the second date. I

    So, when it comes to sex and dating, I think that it is practically useless to give the “I don’t have sex on a first/second/third date speech” for a couple of reasons. First, the fact is that a lot of women who give this speech do, in fact, have sex on the first, second or third dates. They want to give the appearance of having to be cajoled into it so that they won’t look/feel like a slut. Most men aren’t stupid; they understand that if they are persuasive enough with these women who give this speech, and give a woman a reason to overcome her no’s, she’ll sleep with them. So, basically, no for these women actually means “Yes, but you have to persuade me.” Really, I find that to be a dangerous message for women to put out there, because it is so wishy washy and confusing to men, and the slippery slope is that it leads to a common male belief that no doesn’t really mean no (because in practical terms, it doesn’t for these women).

    For women who actually hold to this standard, I have come to believe that saying that you hold to the standard isn’t necessary as long as you just don’t go there. Having said that, though, there ought to be a natural escalation of physical contact between you during the course of dating someone that ultimately culminates in sex. If that isn’t happening, the man rightfully will feel he’s being played for dinners and theater tickets.

    I am not someone who can go from zero to sex. I like that slow build-up of smoldering heat that becomes a raging fire. Creating that natural escalation is what makes it happen, and sends the message that we aren’t treating a good guy, in whom we’re interested, like a chump.

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    • John Says:

      “First, the fact is that a lot of women who give this speech do, in fact, have sex on the first, second or third dates”

      What makes you say this? Are you a guy who has dated women that stated this and then experienced the opposite? Or are you a woman who has heard stories from men that say “yeah she said no sex early on but I got laid by the 2nd date anyway” . If thats your source of info for making your comment, your source could very well be fabricating.

      The first 2 posters who are guys (and me being a guy) have experienced in the field that when a woman says that up front she usually means it and there will be no action. To them, kissing and touching by the third date is even too fast for them.

      As for your comments on no early sex but gradual escalation, I totally agree that is a good thing and if I like a woman, I always prefer that escalation each time we are together.

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      • Trouble Says:

        Not just one but many women have submitted questions to Moxie over the years touching on this scenario, and I have several female friends with whom I’ve had conversations on the subject. I’ve also done it myself.

        I dated a guy for a year after giving him the first date sex speech and then, go figure, having sex on the first date. He told me later that “the speech is usually a sure indicator that I’m going to get laid, because she’s already thinking about having sex with me. Then, my job is to give her an excuse to.”

        That’s my experience, ymmv.

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        • John Says:

          OK fair point Trouble. If your source of info was your own experience then I stand corrected. But lets not invalidate that many guys have experienced that speech and it came true to form. I think the real issue here isn’t sex or no sex on early date- its also the lack of effort made by the woman.

          The issue here is that this woman is giving the vibe that she wont be flexible in commuting. If you cant bring commuting to the table AND you give the no sex speech then its that combination which is the turn off. I am sure guys might take the chance and see where it goes after the speech but if he always has to do the schleping, then that does change things.

          And lest not forget that she gave a good example in her most recent dating experiece that she did exactly what she preached- guy comes to her, no sex and then wonders why it didnt work out. Her actions clearly matched her words. I say to Jose to move on just like Moxie stated.

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          • Selena Says:

            Is 20 minutes really considered a commute to meet someone? Schleping? Sheesh.

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            • John Says:

              Selena,
              20 minutes from Westchester to the Bronx is when there is no traffic. That commute can take well over an hour each way especially on a Friday or Saturday night. If you didnt know that, then you must not live in the NYC area. And if you do live in the NYC area, and you still made that comment, then you must be like that woman and never did that commute for a date.

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              • Selena Says:

                No, I do not live in NYC. The OP however apparently does as he was the one who said the woman lived 20 min. away.

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              • dimplz Says:

                It can be a killer commute. That’s a minor inconvenience in the scheme of things. My boyfriend lives 15 minutes away from me with no traffic, but he lives in glorious Paramus and I have been stuck for 40 minutes trying to get there.We both drive, and we both have cars.

                This woman could take a train and he can pick her up at the station. When you like someone, you make it work. It’s not the end of the damn world. Traffic happens.

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                • Crotch Rocket Says:

                  When you like someone, you make it work.
                  True, but in this scenario, the woman is expecting the man to do all the work while she, apparently, contributes nothing–and it doesn’t take that long for a guy to notice that. As Howard inelegantly says above, men don’t really have a choice when we’re younger, but as we age and the tables turn, we start to expect a woman to contribute to the dating experience rather than simply put up an endless series of hoops for men to jump through for her entertainment.

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                  • BK Says:

                    I worked and lived in the Bronx. Public transportation is okay if you live by one of the main lines(B/D, 4/5/6), and are trying to get into the city. If you’re trying to commute between different neighborhoods in the Bronx, or get up to Westchester, it can be a complete nightmare. To get from the neighborhood I worked in to my university classes up near Westchester, I had to take 3 different buses. (If someone gave me a ride, it only took about 15 minutes). It is possible that it is a significant inconvenience for this woman to try to accommodate and come to the OP. I also noticed when I worked in the Bronx, that some people were very wary about leaving their own neighborhoods, which might possibly explain some of this woman’s hesitancy and the hoops she is making the OP jump through.

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                    • LostSailor Says:

                      It’s understandable that public transportation in the Bronx can be difficult and that the woman the OP was talking about doesn’t have a car. But that’s not his fault and doesn’t really change the equation for him. Actually it can reinforce it.

                      This woman seems to expect the men she dates outside of her geographical area to make all the effort to come to her to date her and at the same time bemoans that other women make her look bad by “giving it up too quickly.”

                      Yes, she is making the OP jump through hoops to make dating convenient for her while seemingly offering little in return. Yet she doesn’t seem to understand why men bail after 3 dates.

                      I think this goes a long way toward explaining why she’s nearly 50 and never married. Her geographic location and lack of transportation options are not an excuse.

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    • bree Says:

      I agree Trouble that the speech is not necessary. As someone mentioned on another blog, don’t just speak about it, be about it. You don’t tell a man you plan to make him wait for x amnt of dates of months, u just do and when he tries you then you say your not ready.
      Still men need to ease up on that being pressed and thirsty for sex quick fast and in a hurry. To me a “Real Man” is one who won’t have sex with a woman right away. He will wait and be patient and take the time to get to know her. He will let her know honestly if he isn’t feeling her after spending some time with her that he isn’t feeling her and he will move on. If a man is courting a woman and treating her good and attentive to her and playing the game like a pro and his intentions are to sleep with the woman and leave then the woman loses. And if this repeatedly happens to her several times what does that say about her? And it may not necessarily be that she is a bad woman but she is unfortunately choosing the “wrong men.” The other caveat to that is unfortunately there are more wrong men than right ones. So that makes it much more difficult to choose. I’m not saying all men are bad at all, but the pool of guys with game and guys who can lose interest in a woman after sleeping with her and want to move on is larger than the nice sweet good guys.
      I know some of yall will say if the woman cannot keep a mans interest past sex then something is wrong with her. The only thing that could be wrong with her is that she is choosing the wrong men and is not a good judge of character.
      But again there is so much to the dating game and how men play it. Practically everythiing in the end is to their advantage because whether the woman gets what she wants or not, (which is him) depends on him and whatever he feels like doing.
      I know some men who have said that the women they really like start off as 10′s on a scale of 1-10, but things the woman says and/or does can bring her score down and 1 small thing can disqualify her and after that man has had sex with her, even though he does like her eventually he will fade and another one will bite the dust. Or he could me another woman that he likes better, but this happens after he had sex with 1 woman. And because men are winning and have the upper hand they can disqualify a woman for a few insignificant things. Like Eddie Murphy in the movie Boomerang with the complex about a womans feet.
      How much sense does it make that a woman looks good enough to sleep with but after you hit it and check out her feet in the light of day if she has corns she is disqualified. And she has corns from wearing the sexy heels that u like to see her in. If she wore flats u would think her not as sexy. Men can be very demanding of women and make them feel like everything they say and do hangs in the balance and if she falls off one time she will be dismissed. If the woman has had slept with the man for obvious reasons she will feel played because of how it went down, even if that wasn’t the mans intentions. If she doesn’t sleep with him she won’t feel so bad and won’t feel like she was played.
      Men have to realize that sex means a hell of a lot to women. Women don’t view sex as men do, at least not most women. They want it to be special and meaningful and if it isn’t they will feel some type of way.
      And women who do capitalize off of sex feel like they are getting something out of it, and they are because the man is paying for it in some way shape or form. But for women having sex just to have sex for the sheer enjoyment of it and for a nut is not what most women want. Way more women than men are faking orgasms…that right there says something.

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      • bree Says:

        Finally, men if you really want more women to sleep with you sooner then you need to prepare yourself to be in a relationship with that one woman and fully commit to her because bottom line, this is what many women will expect and want.
        If your not sure if you will want to commit to her then it will behoove you to wait it out a while until you feel like you can be with her.
        If you know you honestly just want sex and are not looking for a serious committed relationship with any woman but u still want sex then let women know that. If they say they are cool with it throughout the course of dealing with them remind them periodically that u have no intentions of being in a relationship with them. This will save you a lot of drama and questions you don’t want to answer and being put on the spot.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          if you really want more women to sleep with you sooner then you need to prepare yourself to be in a relationship with that one woman and fully commit to her because bottom line, this is what many women will expect and want.
          First of all, there is no way for a woman to determine if the man has really committed to her, just whether he says he has committed to her. And there’s nothing to stop him from changing his mind after they have sex, so what does a woman really gain by trying this tactic? Just a bunch of disillusionment.

          Second, whether a man wants to commit to a woman will depend in part on the sex, so any prior commitment cannot be genuine in the first place.

          If you know you honestly just want sex … then let women know that.
          That’s a very effective way for a guy to ensure he does not get laid. Why the hell would a guy deliberately sabotage his own success like that? Better to just stay home and save all the time, effort and money that he’d be investing in failed dates.

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          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            Second, whether a man wants to commit to a woman will depend in part on the sex, so any prior commitment cannot be genuine in the first place.

            Thank you. Any guy who agrees to commit to a woman or agrees to exclusivity before they sleep together is either a closet case or asexual. Which probably works for these women since they don’t like sex either. Or the guy is up to no good or getting it somewhere else. Yeah, great litmus test, ladies!

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      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        “Men have to realize that sex means a hell of a lot to women.”

        You are being inconsistent. As you correctly noted earlier, sex does not, in fact, mean much at all to women. Women can take it or leave it. The importance of sex to women is that men value sex. The disappointment women have after sex is not because the sex was bad but because the other stuff they were hoping to get didn’t materialize.

        “Still men need to ease up on that being pressed and thirsty for sex quick fast and in a hurry. To me a “Real Man” is one who won’t have sex with a woman right away. He will wait and be patient and take the time to get to know her. He will let her know honestly if he isn’t feeling her after spending some time with her that he isn’t feeling her and he will move on.”

        We have carefully considered your proposal and have decided to keep doing what we’re doing for as long as it works for us. Thanks.

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        • Selena Says:

          “The disappointment women have after sex is not because the sex was bad but because the other stuff they were hoping to get didn’t materialize.”

          Like an orgasm?

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      • LostSailor Says:

        Still men need to ease up on that being pressed and thirsty for sex quick fast and in a hurry. To me a “Real Man” is one who won’t have sex with a woman right away. He will wait and be patient and take the time to get to know her.

        That’s a very fine line to tread, and one that most men cannot navigate successfully. Yes, it’s what boys and men have been taught by our culture over the last 40 years. Unfortunately, it usually doesn’t succeed for most guys with most women in getting men what most of them want, relationships and sex. If a man isn’t escalating toward a physical relationship, then he is in great danger of seeming too “meek,” as Moxie puts it, and killing any attraction might feel. When I first started dating a number of years ago, I was still that deferential gentleman and backed off at the first sign of resistance. And I have seen the light of attraction in a woman’s eyes almost literally fade and die.

        A “real man” will have sex with a woman right away if she lets him. If she want’s him to wait, it’s vital that she be providing something else to keep him motivated. But the plain truth is that if you don’t do the deed eventually, most men aren’t going to hang around for months.

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        • Eliza Says:

          Who said anything about sticking around for MONTHS? But to expect sex on the 3rd date? If men are that hard-up for action…just go pay for prostitute. And no, if a man doesn’t pressure a woman for sex, he does NOT come across as meek. Please. He can still be affectionate, and come across as assertive and interested without being so insistent on having sex so soon.

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          • LostSailor Says:

            It was Bree who mentioned waiting “dates of months.” And it doesn’t have to be a hard and fast “sex on the third date or out.” But I think your wrong about a man coming across as “meek” if he’s not consistently escalating toward intimacy. That’s part of being assertive. Women that I’ve talked to about this and who I have heard talking about it seem to think that if a man isn’t escalating there is something wrong with him. Actual quote from a friend dismayed about a date the previous night “He walked me back to my apartment and he didn’t even try to sleep with me!” “Would you have slept with him?” “No way! But he didn’t even try!”

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            • Bree Says:

              LostSailor women like that are playing mind games and are crazy as hell and don’t know what they want many times. And yes unfortunately there are just as many if not sometimes more women playing games as men. In certain area’s women have a lot to learn and a lot of growing up to do as well as men. And on the other hand there are indeed women who namely want sex and don’t want a serious relationship much like men do.
              I also know a guy who said a woman he liked and was a perfect gentleman to did the fade on him because he genuinely liked her and tried to get to know her and be respectful and didn’t press her for sex. I told him he is better off without her cause she sounds crazy and full of games. Or she was a woman who primarily wanted sex and didn’t really want a relationship.
              Men not all women are like this though. Some women like myself really like and respect the fact that a man respects us and doesn’t come off like an octopus on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd date. Some women like chivalrous gentlemen who at the very least make us feel like he is genuinely interested in more than sex with us.
              I’m not at all saying that I don’t like sex and I’m not saying anyone should put any type of strict time line on when sex happens. I believe it should happen when it happens naturally and the mood is right and both people are feeling it. I personally don’t put a time on when sex happens and have never gave any man a 1 2 or 3 mnth rule. If I wasn’t attracted to a man and never planned on having sex with him I told him that. Whatever he chose to do afterwards was his decision and I respected whatever it was.
              What I am saying is this. I have a lot of male friends and just hear lots of men in general constantly complaining about all the women they slept with but never got in a relationship with. These are the women who became stalkers, and psycho crazy, and clingy and started “trippin” and just became a pain in the azz to the man. And the common thing was the fact that the man had sex with these women but never ever committed to them. I know men now who have children with women who make their lives hell. Some of these men the kids are teenagers and the women have even moved on and remarried or whatever. They still punish these men thru the courts with unnecessary high azz child support payments all to make the man suffer. Reason why, because he didn’t stay with her and marry her.
              Now granted these women didn’t deserve these men and the women were azzholes and it’s completely understandable why these men didn’t marry them and/or stay married to them. However to these women that doesn’t matter. Maybe it’s because they are self-righteous and have this sense of entitlement. My point is that when a woman is with a man that she likes and cares for and it becomes sexual, most, (not all) but most women will want a serious commitment from that man. She will want to be in an exclusive relationship with him where he forsakes all others for her. And she will eventually want him to put a ring on it. Many women will not admit this because they fear it will scare men away and they will continue to be pumped and dumped. But the reality men is that women want a commitment from you, Not Just Sex! That is rarely enough for a woman unless she is like a man in that way and she just wants sex. Or unless she is a prostitute or stripper and your paying her for it. Now men however you choose to handle that knowledge is on you. But if you continue to play these childish games with women just to get sex from them and you sleep with women quick fast and in a hurry you will continue to have to deal with a hell of a lot of drama. The only way you can avoid the drama is if your game is tight like glue and your a smooth as silk playa from the himalaya’s and/or if your hittin off women in different states and/or countries. Otherwise you will deal with some stuff from women you sleep with but never get in a relationship with. And yeah some women u can be honest and tell them you just want sex and they will still sleep with you because they think you will change once you get with them and u will fall in love with them and be with them. Most women in their minds feel like their stuff is laced with golden crack and no man who is straight can resist it. So u being honest won’t make a difference to these women because they will still expect a commitment from you. Again why it’s in your best interest to take enough time before you sex a woman to at the very least know what type of woman your dealing with so you can handle her accordingly.

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              • LostSailor Says:

                women like that are playing mind games and are crazy as hell and don’t know what they want many times…there are just as many if not sometimes more women playing games as men….Men not all women are like this though.

                Ah, the NAWALT gambit. Which always fails because enough women are like that that men must calibrate their approach to deal with the general dating pool of women. That said, I don’t necessarily believe that women in general are “crazy as hell.” That’s just a label usually applied by women to other women who behave in ways that harm the first group. The woman I was describing is anything but crazy, indeed she’s fairly typical of late 20s/early 30s women.

                My point is that when a woman is with a man that she likes and cares for and it becomes sexual, most, (not all) but most women will want a serious commitment from that man

                Not true for younger women in their 20s and early 30s. Only partially true as women hit their mid-30s and start hitting the wall of looks and fertility. That’s when the commitment bug hits hardest. This will work with guys with more limited options, but not necessarily with guys who have options.

                But if you continue to play these childish games with women just to get sex from them and you sleep with women quick fast and in a hurry you will continue to have to deal with a hell of a lot of drama. The only way you can avoid the drama is if your game is tight like glue

                We’re only playing the game by the rules women and a feminist culture have created. If the game is childish, that’s not on us. I think what bothers women most is that more men are learning tight game and using the rules to our favor. I imagine that for some it must be frightening.

                Again why it’s in your best interest to take enough time before you sex a woman to at the very least know what type of woman your dealing with so you can handle her accordingly.

                Thanks for the helpful advice. But it’s really in your best interest if men do this. You’re trying to make men the gatekeepers of sex, and that’s just not how it works. 40 years of feminist-created sexual revolution haven’t resulted in greater happiness among women just “liberation.” Which is why we’re starting to see advocacy such as yours that men must change to accommodate women even more. To “man-up,” ignore their best interests, and just settle down. The problem is that society has been changed to give woman greater power than men in long-term relationships and marriage and men see little benefit in further change.

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          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            Who said anything about sticking around for MONTHS?
            That is what most women mean by “waiting”: three to six months.

            But to expect sex on the 3rd date?
            That could take a month or more, depending on how well the two people’s schedules match up. Anything more than that becomes the “MONTHS” that you seem to agree is an excessive amount of waiting.

            And, for the record, only the truly hardcore guys will split after three dates. I’ll regularly wait until five if everything else is going well, but in my experience from when I was younger and more desperate, if it doesn’t happen by then it never will. Never. So why keep beating my head against that wall? She’s clearly not interested, no matter what she says, so it’s time to go find someone else who is.

            If men are that hard-up for action…
            Most of us aren’t that “hard up” for action; we just don’t feel like investing our time, effort, emotions and money for date after date, with no end in sight, because some silly girl can’t figure out if she is interested or not. Hint: it’s only the guys who are that hard up who will put up with “waiting”, and that’s purely because they have no alternative.

            if a man doesn’t pressure a woman for sex,
            Whoa there. Who said anything about “pressuring” a woman for sex? If my attempts at seduction are rejected, I’ll just shift my attentions elsewhere. No need to “pressure” a woman into anything.

            He can still be affectionate, and come across as assertive and interested without being so insistent on having sex so soon.
            And that’s what we’re talking about here: guys who are affectionate and assertive without being an asshole about it. Yet, when such a guy gives up after a month or two, he’s still considered an asshole who only wanted sex–even if his intentions were quite romantic before she started shutting him down at every opportunity–and she’ll work even harder to screen such guys out in the future.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        a “Real Man” is one who …
        IOW, a “real man” is one who does what you want him to do and doesn’t do what you don’t want him to do. That is not a man. If that’s what you’re looking for, get a vibrator and a pet.

        I don’t expect a woman to do (or not do) everything exactly how I’d prefer. A relationship is about compromise–on both sides. It is not, as many women seem to think, about the man doing all the compromising.

        And it may not necessarily be that she is a bad woman but she is unfortunately choosing the “wrong men.”
        However, the usual response women have to this scenario is to blame the men for her poor choices and continue to choose the same type of guys–and wonder why the results don’t change.

        the pool of guys with game and guys who can lose interest in a woman after sleeping with her and want to move on is larger than the nice sweet good guys.
        I’m not convinced this is true; the majority of guys I know are good guys, just a bit rough around the edges. The few assholes, however, get more dates than all the good guys combined, so it looks like they’re the majority because 90% of women are dating the same 10% of guys–who, given the numbers, have absolutely no reason to change what they’re doing (or ever settle down).

        I know some of yall will say if the woman cannot keep a mans interest past sex then something is wrong with her. The only thing that could be wrong with her is that she is choosing the wrong men and is not a good judge of character.
        Um, wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. There can be plenty of things that make a woman poor relationship material–something that all those guys decided before they pumped and dumped her. True, some guys are just assholes, but most are not. Once is bad luck; twice is coincidence; but three times is a pattern–and it is the woman, not the men, that is the constant in that pattern.

        Men can be very demanding of women and make them feel like everything they say and do hangs in the balance and if she falls off one time she will be dismissed.
        Women treat men the same way, especially in the early stages of dating or even before the date (look at all the nonsense about texting instead of calling, phone screening before a first date, etc.). If anything, men at least judge women on things that have a real bearing on the potential success of a relationship, eg. sexual compatibility.

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        • Bree Says:

          Crotch Rocket you make a good point with this -
          “I’m not convinced this is true; the majority of guys I know are good guys, just a bit rough around the edges. The few assholes, however, get more dates than all the good guys combined, so it looks like they’re the majority because 90% of women are dating the same 10% of guys–who, given the numbers, have absolutely no reason to change what they’re doing (or ever settle down).”
          I stand corrected and digress.
          Yes true if a woman has a history of men who haven’t wanted to deal with her after sex it could mean that the sex was bad or that something is wrong with her. But as you stated it could be that she is dating the same type of men who are azzholes. Not saying that the woman isn’t as fault and that there isn’t something not right with her, however it still doesn’t make it right that the men are azzholes to this woman.
          I agree that women have to learn to choose better men. I think Moxie is probably good at this to a degree because I agree with some of her comments on knowing when a guy is bullsh****** a woman. At the same time, I don’t condone men using women just for sex. Or bsing them just to get sex. Wrong is wrong….and if men and women are both wrong then 2 wrongs damn sure don’t make a right. And somebody needs to start doing the right thing and get it right.

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          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            it still doesn’t make it right that the men are azzholes to this woman.
            It is neither right nor wrong; it just is–and women who refuse to accept that unpleasant reality, rather than adapting and overcoming it, are destined for a life of pain. This, not coincidentally, is one of the reasons that a woman might be considered “not relationship material”.

            And somebody needs to start doing the right thing and get it right.
            You can’t control what anybody else does; all you can do is recognize what they’re doing and change your own thoughts, feelings and behaviors to compensate.

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  4. Ashley Says:

    I understand why women want to make sure a guy knows he’s not going to be getting any action from her right away, but I don’t think talking about it is the best idea. My personal way of going about this is not to verbally talk about it, because as already displayed….men don’t like to hear verbatim about not getting laid. Instead, I avoid sex talk and I avoid dates that could lead to sex until I am ready: In daytime, for specific hours. No open ended or late night dates. I do flirt in a way that says “I do want to have sex, eventually.” I’m not the type of have sex after only a couple dates, but I’m not going to wait 5 months either. If a guy doesn’t want to wait the amount of time I want to wait, then I have no problem letting him go. The biggest mistakes I ever made was having sex in a 2nd or 3rd date, all of them ended up to be sex addicted creeps….and now they have have 3 kids by different women. I’m glad I’m not one of them.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      I avoid dates that could lead to sex until I am ready: In daytime, for specific hours. No open ended or late night dates.

      That sounds more like you don’t trust yourself than the men you go out with.

      The biggest mistakes I ever made was having sex in a 2nd or 3rd date, all of them ended up to be sex addicted creeps….and now they have have 3 kids by different women.

      Ok. But doesn’t that speak more to your taste in men than anything else? You seem to be trying to make the correlation between the sex and the guys and it sounds like it has more to do with your choices and lack of good judgment than anything else.

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      • Ashley Says:

        It’s not that I don’t trust myself. It’s that I don’t want to send any signals that I am willing to have sex on that particular date in order to avoid the guy even trying to invite me over to his place.

        From my experience, guys who want sex right away come in all different forms. I’m not sure there is a type when it comes to that because they have come to me in the form of the nice guy, the rebel, the religious guy, etc, etc. I feel like it’s more about poor luck and poor judgment. There’s no way to tell. I’ve dated many different guys under the sun, so it seems almost impossible to pinpoint which one are just after sex right away.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          If a guy is attracted to you, even minimally, he’s going to want to have sex with you; that’s how we’re wired. Assuming you want a relationship, your job is to separate the ones who want only sex from the ones that want sex and maybe something more.

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          • Ashley Says:

            Exactly, which is why I don’t take the risks anymore and wait a while with anyone I might date. If they are the right guy, the won’t mind waiting a few weeks/several dates (which is usually when I seem to be ready), but I also don’t get all frigid about it by talking about how I’m not going to do it or how I am purposely doing the withholding dance on a date, because I understand how that can be off putting. I just try to let things progress steadily and naturally, as others have said.

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            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              I don’t take the risks anymore and wait a while with anyone I might date.
              Sorry, but you’re taking a risk any time you put your trust in someone, whether it is on the third date or the thirtieth. And don’t forget that not having sex carries its own, different risks.

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          • Eve Says:

            It’s our job? How about taking some responsibility for your own actions and maybe not lying o women to get sex, having sex with them when you’re not that interested in them but you can tell they’re in to you etc

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            • Ashley Says:

              Yes, if I had a penny for every time I was lead on by a guy like that. It’s hard when a guy will play the part of mr perfect. Do everything right and treat you well, and you think they are really into you. Then as soon as you give it up, they become houdini and call you a slut and laugh at you because you gave them the only thing they wanted. It’s heartbreaking.

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              • LostSailor Says:

                Ashley, you’ve actually had men laugh at you and call you “slut” because you’ve had sex with them? Really? If so, I think Moxie’s quite right. You need to develop better filters.

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                • Ashley Says:

                  Pretty much. I slept with a guy on the second date and while taking me home, he said, “Since you had sex with me, I can’t date you now, you know that right?” Now, I’d like you to tell me how this is MY problem and fault, again?

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                  • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                    It’s partly your fault because you have bad judgment. And because you have bad judgment, you have crafted all these rules and guidelines to prevent yourself from having sex with another guy like that. When what you should be doing is PICKING BETTER GUYS.

                    For a man to say something like that, he has got to be a huge asshole. I don’t know how anybody could hide their assholeishness when they are that much of an asshole. Which means you fall for the bullshit and the lines.

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                    • Ashley Says:

                      Ok see this is my point. The only part where I had bad judgement was not making this guy wait longer to get in my pants. The fact that he was an asshole is not on me or my judgment. He was a perfect gentlemen for the weeks prior to us having sex, and his awful statement came out of left field. I mean, I had actually thought he was joking until he confirmed he meant what he said. Like I tried to point out before, we women can often times never tell when a guy is just in it for a piece. It’s not always bad bad judgment, but more about lad luck and being lead on and lied to. I’m not going to be blamed for the fact that he happened to be an ass.

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                    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                      Oh, right. You totally should have waited a month or so so he could totally demoralize you.

                      You picked him. Ergo, you’re partly responsible.

                      we women can often times never tell when a guy is just in it for a piece.

                      What do you mean “we”, white man? Plenty of us can tell when a guy just wants to get laid. We either don’t care and have sex with him anyway or don’t have sex with him.

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                    • Ashley Says:

                      How…are we supposed to “pick better guys” when you don’t even know them until we take the time to get to know them? HOW can I just pick better guys?

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                    • Ashley Says:

                      That’s like saying, “Pick a winning lottery ticket.” Ok. Duh, why didn’t I think of that?

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                    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                      Nobody s that good at hiding such assholeish behavior. The signs where there. You ignored them because he was hot or omigod soooo funny or rich or whatever.

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                    • Ashley Says:

                      Ok. You were there, I’m sorry.

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                    • Bree Says:

                      Ashley I agree that this guy was an obvious azzhole. However Moxie not all azzholes are that obvious….there are plenty of wolves in sheep’s clothing.
                      Like the men who date a woman for years and live with her and never marry her and know good and hell well they are never gonna marry her. But they will gladly take all the benefits of marriage without the actual marriage.
                      And yes before you say it the women who go for this are foolish for allowing a man to date her or be in a relationship with her for many many years and live with her and never marry her, if he knows she wants to get married. I think many people after a long time has passed and they develop feelings for a person they keep giving them chances to redeem themselves and hang on to the empty promises and lies that sound a lot like truths. Once a woman has been with a man for a long time and loves him and if she has a child by him she wants to believe him when he says he will marry her when the time is right and when he sincerely asks her for more time she gives it to him. And that time he asked for extends to years. Personally in those situations it’s best to just end it and move on since your not getting what you want or give an ultimatum and try to force a decision so you can at the very least get an answer and move on. For many folks though this is easier said than done.

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                  • Dimplz Says:

                    You had a handful of hours to get to know this guy, so it really could have been a good or bad experience. Your odds at that point were 50/50. I’m not trying to be rude, but if you were my friend, I’d say, “You need to own your part in this. It’s too bad that he was so rude to you, but maybe take your time and get to know the person.” Nobody likes a whiner. When people tell me it’s someone else’s fault that a situation happened, I automatically think this person lacks self-awareness. It’s nobody’s fault but your own after a few instances. It’s nobody’s fault but yours when it goes on for too long. You have to know what you want, know what’s realistically available to you, and find someone who wants you for more than just sex. There are men like that out there, but if you’re only giving the smooth operators a chance, expect to get played more often than not. Saying it has nothing to do with your choices is self-victimization.

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                    • Dimplz Says:

                      Is it self victimization or victimization I’m not sure.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

                    • Ashley Says:

                      I own having sex with him too early and not getting to know him for a longer period of time, to which maybe I would have seen that jerk-ish behavior before it was too late.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 5

                    • Eve Says:

                      err didn’t the OP bail on this lady PRECISELY because she stated he wouldn’t be getting any early therefore proving Ashley right – he’s an asshole.

                      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 6

                    • Howard Says:

                      Owning mistakes is a big part of getting better at anything. It always amuses me how women like Ashley refuse to do that. Of course this guy was a jerk, but Ashley has to take some part in the responsibility of the outcome of this event, if she really wants to learn something.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

                • Ashley Says:

                  Perhaps it’s my fault for picking the obvious loser? Is that what you are trying to say? I really hope not.

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                  • LostSailor Says:

                    One thing you can do is seriously think about not only the behavior of the guys that do this but your responses to that behavior. I’ll be that you’ll start to see patterns emerging on both sides. Know thyself, know thy boundaries, and know thine opposition. Learn game and develop anti-game. It can be hard to do, but the result will likely be better results.

                    The other possibility is that you’re punching above your weight class. Only you can determine that, but if you find that you’re repeatedly attracted to guys who turn out to assholes, then you may want to reexamine why you’re attracted to them.

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                  • Chester Says:

                    Some women go to bed quickly with a guy and have a successful outcome; sometimes they don’t. Other women wait a long time but their rate of success does not seem to be any better. It doesn’t seem to improve the odds to wait. Women who wait a real long time will always point to one time some jerk responded negatively when she went to bed quickly. This waiting is really a result of resentment or hurt that hasnt healed. Now your going to ‘control’ the situation…but you’re not controlling it….you just think you are.

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                    • Saj Says:

                      Or some women aren’t into sex with guys they aren’t sure about. Sex is fun with someone you are into but someone you have met a handfull of times? Pass.

                      People are so bloody impatient. They miss out on so much because immediate gratification is more important then anything I guess. It’s self restraint and a focus on the long term that even lets these relationships survive. Not that many of you are able to not self sabotage to even reach that point.

                      I know this is a dating blog and not a relationship one but people have to stop worrying about this petty bullshit. Hard to type on this stupid kindle but going through some trying times and happy that I’m with a rock who didn’t bail because I wasn’t ready til I was sure about him and he doesn’t bail when there is a hellava lot more important things going on then who had the most recent orgasm or who had to drive further that day.

                      So yes both sides and genders should work to be accomidating but for fucks sake don’t bully or pressure or guilt a new girl for sec. Work on being sexy so she will want to out of desire. And for women stop worrying about how much he makes or on paper crape you can brag to your friends about. Being a good guy of character should be item number one on your man picker.

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              • fuzzilla Says:

                You can only control your own behavior, though. I thought Crotch Rocket’s statement was accurate and completely reasonable. Saying “it’s your job to sort the wheat from the chaff” doesn’t excuse the creepy or disingenuous behavior of the “chaff,” you just won’t waste your time with it when you learn to read people better. You can’t guarantee 100% that you’ll never be hurt again, but you’ll waste far less time. (You said you meet guys that come on really strong in the beginning and then turn into pricks after you’ve slept together. Coming on too strong too fast, gushing about how awesome you are before he could possibly know you in any authentic way – there’s a red flag, right there).

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                • fuzzilla Says:

                  Yeah, so I had this website open since noon-ish and then came back & commented once I got off work (missed the thread above, sorry if my comment is redundant).

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            • LostSailor Says:

              Unfortunately, it’s always your job to see to your protection, whether physical or emotional. And who said anything about lying? CR is quite right, if a man is even mildly interested in you he’s also interested in sex. A man dating you will always test your boundaries; you need to know what and where those boundaries are and stick to them. Most of my female friends tell me they can usually suss out the guys who only want to get laid and nothing more, and if they suspect a guy might be like that, they slow things down.

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            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              It’s our job?
              Yes, it is. That, along with deciding your own interest level, is your entire purpose in going on dates with someone. What the heck did you think it was?

              You cannot rely on other people, especially random strangers (which you are for the first few dates), having your best interests in mind or protecting you from your own naïvete.

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          • Bree Says:

            “If a guy is attracted to you, even minimally, he’s going to want to have sex with you; that’s how we’re wired. Assuming you want a relationship, your job is to separate the ones who want only sex from the ones that want sex and maybe something more.” Funny my dad and uncles and male friends have given me the same advice, just stated differently.
            Crotch Rocket the problem is sifting through all the bs and games. Again there are more folks game-playing than not. I have men who admit they are married or I know they are married and they still flirt and ask for my number and would absolutely sleep with me if I even slightly acted like I would allow them to. And these are pretty nice decent hardworking cool guys. They are good dads and they treat their wives good. Unfortunately This is the only bad thing about them. Even though it’s only 1 thing……it’s a big thing and something men need to seriously work on because it is Wrong!

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        • Eliza Says:

          A totally agree, Ashley. And yes, if you are going to go to a guy’s apartment on the 2nd or 3rd date, you ARE putting yourself in a situation where they may sense that sex may be an option. Eventhough, you don’t have any intention of that at all. Why be in that situation at all? Or why send mixed signals like that? I agree. You can go to a park, during the day, a movie, play pool or go bowling, tons of fun things to do. Why go to his home if you are trying to take things slowly.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      Sometimes I really wish I could give a comment both a thumbs-up and a thumbs-down.

      I avoid sex talk and I avoid dates that could lead to sex until I am ready: In daytime, for specific hours. No open ended or late night dates.
      IMHO, despite what Moxie says, this is a good idea. It sends the message to the guy that you aren’t planning on having sex on that particular date without having to actually say so. I am constantly amazed at women who plan late night/home dates and then get all butthurt when the guy makes the reasonable deduction he’s going to get laid. If that’s definitely not in the cards, just don’t do that. And, if you change your mind during the date, you can always change plans–and he’ll know exactly what that means without needing to be told.

      The biggest mistakes I ever made was having sex in a 2nd or 3rd date, all of them ended up to be sex addicted creeps.
      The problem in these cases was you choosing to date “sex addicted creeps”, not the sex itself. As Dr. Phil says, “Your picker is broken.” There is nothing wrong with sex on the 2nd or 3rd date with the right guy. However, either you’re choosing not to date the right guys or they’re the ones you’re choosing not to have sex with (and, most likely, they give up on you before you’re “ready” and move on).

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      • Bree Says:

        This comment I cosign on Crotch Rocket. Women definitely need to do better at choosing the right type of men and attracting the right type of men.
        However this is a double edged sword and actually doing this in real life is not as easy as it sounds.
        There is no rhyme or reason to choosing the right person beyond using your instincts and common sense. But u can do that and still deal with someone who just had bad intentions from the door, but maybe he saw the woman as a challenge and was determined to “conquer” her so he did whatever he had to do. Men will do some really dumb sh** just for sex. To the woman it appears as if he is making great sacrifices and compromises because he cares. Unless she knows men well enough and knows better many times women mistake the kind and sweet things men do to get laid for actual genuine sincere interest.
        On an all male blog on a post about women not liking nice guys who were “emotionally unavailable” and didn’t want a relationship the men said; just because a guy is good, considerate, nice, sweet, chivalrous, and treats a woman really well doesn’t mean he won’t still sleep with that woman if he is attracted to her and not be in a relationship with her if he is not ready to be in one.
        Unfortunately this confuses many women because if the man is treating her good and he’s a good man and he is courting her and they are spending time together then more than likely she will eventually fall in love with him and want to be with him and want him to commit. If the man likes the woman a lot but for whatever other reasons does not want a relationship with her then she is very hurt and thinks why the hell did he treat me so good if doesn’t want to be with me? So this can work both ways.
        Several men have told me about “one who got away.” These were women who he knew would be perfect wives and who they did love and care about, but he chose not to marry those women for reasons that had nothing to do with the woman, but everything to do with him.
        From what men have told me many times they don’t even know when they will get to the point where they are ready for a serious committed and monogamous relationship and marriage. But when they are ready for it they know and commit to the woman in their lives at that time and she gets the relationship and the marriage. Many times timing is Everything with some men. The “right woman” is irrelevant. If the timing isn’t right her being perfect doesn’t even matter.
        In many ways men can be just as, if not more complex than women.

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  5. LostSailor Says:

    It seems rather presumptuous for a woman to declare on a first date “I’m not going to sleep with you.” Who said we wanted to? I mean, men do have standards, and as flimsy and situational as they might be, they’re still standards…

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  6. Adrienne Says:

    I think what the women are trying to put out there, perhaps not so succinctly, is that they want to be respected and not treated like “Oh, if this guy buys me dinner I have to put out.”

    Sex is a priority for women as well as men, but women (including myself) were always told, “They won’t take you seriously if you sleep with them too soon.” It’s a conundrum and a struggle for most women to balance wanting to be in a relationship/dating someone seriously and giving in to their sexual urges, as we all have them.

    Personally, I have not found much of a correlation between sleeping with a man too soon (whatever your timeframe is) and the development of that relationship, but some women are afraid to take the sexual plunge too soon because they want the man to treat them like ladies and not like they just want to get laid.

    As to José, I don’t think 20 minutes is really that far to go to see if this person could be someone of substance. Don’t overthink it. I dated a guy who lived in New Jersey for over a year, and we would take turns on the 2-hour train ride to see each other. If you really want someone that badly, you’ll figure out a way to make it work. Take a risk; you won’t get the reward without it.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      Sex is a priority for women as well as men,
      Not for many women, in my (and other men’s) experience, unless you count avoiding sex as a priority.

      women (including myself) were always told, “They won’t take you seriously if you sleep with them too soon.”
      You were told wrong, at least as far as most modern Western men go. We won’t take you seriously if don’t sleep with us. And the reason for that is simple: it’s the most reliable way to determine if you are interested, rather than just another woman taking advantage of us for free meals and entertainment. And you can blame other women for that; we’re just playing the game that y’all have designed.

      It’s a conundrum and a struggle for most women to balance wanting to be in a relationship/dating someone seriously and giving in to their sexual urges, as we all have them.
      Let me cut through all the bullshit social programming and simplify things for you: If you want to have sex, have sex. If you don’t, don’t. Any guy who has a problem with your choices is not a good match for you, so just move on and try to find someone who’s a better match.

      some women are afraid to take the sexual plunge too soon because they want the man to treat them like ladies and not like they just want to get laid.
      Sure, you can make a guy “treat you like a lady” (which has nothing to do with actual etiquette, just a bunch of jumping through bullshit hoops) in order to get laid, but that is probably only going to lower his opinion of you in the end. At best, it doesn’t help at all, just delays getting to know who he really is underneath the façade you forced him to put up in the first place.

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      • Adrienne Says:

        “We won’t take you seriously if don’t sleep with us. And the reason for that is simple: it’s the most reliable way to determine if you are interested, rather than just another woman taking advantage of us for free meals and entertainment. And you can blame other women for that; we’re just playing the game that y’all have designed.”

        I actually think that this is not very nice of you to say. Clearly, you’ve been taken advantage of by women who used you for free meals and other perks. I can pay for myself and do so gladly. I would never sleep with a man just to prove that I’m not taking advantage of his generosity. If you’re using sex as a determination of a woman’s “seriousness” towards you, you’re dating the wrong women.

        “Sure, you can make a guy “treat you like a lady” (which has nothing to do with actual etiquette, just a bunch of jumping through bullshit hoops) in order to get laid, but that is probably only going to lower his opinion of you in the end. At best, it doesn’t help at all, just delays getting to know who he really is underneath the façade you forced him to put up in the first place.”

        I’m not sure why this idea of “jumping through hoops” is so prevalent with men. When and where did this disconnect of woman’s vs. men’s dating and sexual habits happen? Yes, sex is definitely something that’s important in a relationship, but it bothers me that we’re having this raging debate of “he should do this” and “she didn’t sleep with me fast enough so I’m done with her.” Have we become that jaded, bitter and closed-minded about dating as we’ve gotten older that it’s permanently colored who we are as people? Where is the compassion, the kindness, the generosity of spirit? I find this whole attitude disturbing and very unsettling.

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        • nathan Says:

          “Have we become that jaded, bitter and closed-minded about dating as we’ve gotten older that it’s permanently colored who we are as people? Where is the compassion, the kindness, the generosity of spirit? I find this whole attitude disturbing and very unsettling.” Disturbs me too. But frankly, what you see here is pretty commonplace amongst dating/relationship forums these days. Some like to call it “straight talk” and ” the hard truth.” I call it selfishness, cynicism, and misanthropy.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

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          • DrivingMeNutes Says:

            “I call it selfishness, cynicism, and misanthropy.”

            You forgot Nihilism.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          I actually think that this is not very nice of you to say.
          I’m not here to be nice or win friends; I’m here to help women understand men and, more importantly, be more successful at dating.

          Clearly, you’ve been taken advantage of by women who used you for free meals and other perks.
          That’s a given; I’m a man. There are lots of such women out there, so every man has experienced it. And, except for the chumps, it is going to color our future behaviors and expectations.

          I can pay for myself and do so gladly.
          And, as soon as the guy sees you do that, he will start to take you more seriously–and not be in such a rush to get laid. However, you need to realize that many, perhaps most, women do not see it that way–and setting yourself apart from such women is a major plus for you.

          I would never sleep with a man just to prove that I’m not taking advantage of his generosity.
          Of course not; I never said you should. However, how is he supposed to know you’re not taking advantage of his generosity–especially in the case of most women, who never take the initiative, never plan or pay for dates, etc.?

          If you’re using sex as a determination of a woman’s “seriousness” towards you, you’re dating the wrong women.
          There are many ways for a woman to show interest; the problem is that all the others can be easily faked by women who just want the free meals and attention. You can’t fake having sex with me; you’ve either done it or you haven’t. That is why I called sex the most reliable way to determine if you’re really interested.

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          • Kurt Says:

            I can pay for myself and do so gladly.

            And, as soon as the guy sees you do that, he will start to take you more seriously–and not be in such a rush to get laid. However, you need to realize that many, perhaps most, women do not see it that way–and setting yourself apart from such women is a major plus for you.”

            This is actually great advice and it would be nice if more women understood this. If a man has any experience with dating, he is not going to continue asking out a woman if he is paying entirely for dates and getting little or nothing in return. If a woman wants to take things slowly but doesn’t offer to have her half on dates, then at a minimum she needs to make it entirely clear to the man that she is really into him and isn’t dating anyone else.

            Ideally, a woman who wants to take things slowly would insist on paying her half on dates. This would be a good idea because it would allow both the woman and man time to take things slowly and the man would not have the idea in his head that the woman might simply taking advantage of him.

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            • Adrienne Says:

              This is a relief! I’ve been dating a sweet guy for a few months now, and this is how our “financials” have gone so far:

              First date: he asked, so he paid.
              Second date: Drinks after work. He paid for the first round, and I went to the bar to pay for the second round. He was shocked. In his words, “Most girls offer to pay, but never actually do.” We took turns paying for rounds.
              Third, fourth, fifth, etc: Generally, he’s been paying, but I’ve been insisting on paying for half the bill or the tip, at the very least. Sometimes he lets me, sometimes he doesn’t. When he put in my new air conditioner last month, I took him out to dinner afterwards.

              We may have cracked the code: Men don’t want to be taken advantage of financially, so they expect sex fairly early on to prove “seriousness,” and if girls want to take it slower, if they offer to pay, that shows the “seriousness?” Does that sound right?

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              • Crotch Rocket Says:

                I agree that sharing in the investment shows that it’s unlikely the woman is taking advantage of the man financially.

                One potential problem with splitting the bill is that many women do that as a sign they’re not interested, so doing so but showing other signs of interest could be seen as sending mixed messages. This is why I recommend alternating who pays (and asks, plans, etc.) instead.

                There is still one problem, though: I also split or alternate with my platonic friends, so what is it that makes a date different? How is the guy to know you haven’t put him in the Friend Zone? Now we’re back again to sex as the only reliable indicator.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          I’m not sure why this idea of “jumping through hoops” is so prevalent with men.
          Read this blog from a man’s perspective for a few months and all will become clear.

          When and where did this disconnect of woman’s vs. men’s dating and sexual habits happen?
          The disconnect has always been there; you just weren’t aware of it before now, apparently.

          Yes, sex is definitely something that’s important in a relationship,
          “Disagreements about sex” is cited as the cause for roughly 50% of divorces, so it is apparently the most important thing (followed closely by “disagreements about money” at roughly 40%). Until women can get that through their heads, the “disconnect” you speak of will continue.

          but it bothers me that we’re having this raging debate of “he should do this” and “she didn’t sleep with me fast enough so I’m done with her.”
          Ah, but there is a crucial difference between those two statements: the former is women dictating that men should change for women’s benefit, while the latter is men choosing to change for their own benefit. Where is the discussion of women changing?

          Have we become that jaded, bitter and closed-minded about dating as we’ve gotten older that it’s permanently colored who we are as people? Where is the compassion, the kindness, the generosity of spirit?
          That’s how I started out, based on what my mother and sisters taught me about dating, but over the years that has been gradually crushed out of me by one bad experience after another: what was once a raging fire of optimism is now just a few glowing embers, and most women seem more interested in stomping out what’s left than nurturing it back to life.

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  7. Eliza Says:

    Rather than say anything at all about sex. Why discuss it? Just enjoy your time with a man, see if there is chemistry, and if you feel at ease around him. Can you truly be yourself? If so, is he looking for the same thing you are? And by that…if he is just looking to date around, and have “fun”, with every woman he can, and you are looking more for a LTR, then obviously you want different things in your life. Move on. You should know this by date 2–if you ask the right questions. If a man doesn’t want to even ask questions, or answer them or talk openly…then there you have your answer as to how serious he is. He is merely looking to get in, get off and get out! That simple. If you are all for it…great! Enjoy! At least-you know what you are dealing with. If not, again. move on. You are both not right for each other. Plenty of other women who will give it up – on the first date! Good for them.
    Why judge anyone though on this board? What is wrong with women not wanting to open their legs on the first, second or 10th date? It is their right. It is their body to do as they wish. Everyone is entitled to their values and beliefs. And those who can’t respect that are small-minded to say the least.

    As far as either a 40+ year old woman OR MAN being inflexible to a point where they won’t consider dating locally, or refuse to commute anywhere? Yes, I agree it’s a turn off and it’s unreasonable.

    Again, if men feel that dinner and theatre tickets = sex? Perhaps they should seek the services of a prostitute or perhaps keep dates very very simple, like coffee or a walk in the park. A movie? That only costs $12.00. Don’t know what else to suggest. Lunch – it can be cheap. But, yes, there should be a “natural escalation” where physical contact comes to play–but that idea of natural escalation can be defined differently for everyone.

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  8. Dimplz Says:

    My short answer is that it’s a waste of time for you because you have already over analyzed everything she’s said. The truth is she’s older and not hot enough and that’s why you think she’d be a waste of time. And she probably is. However, none of us know anything other than what you wrote, and based in the fact that you’ve seemed to concentrate on what she lacks, you’re just not into her. Move on.

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  9. Karen Says:

    YAY!!!!!!!!! nicely said: Fun fact: People who actually enjoy sex have it. They don’t look for reasons to abstain.

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  10. Mark Says:

    OP;

    You do raise good points. The crux of the matter is any one of them may/may not be true.

    It may be tough to misunderstand or misinterpret quite a lot at this state. So why not set up a time and place for a date. If she agrees then maybe you can find out some of her answers without trying to guess all that much.

    If things go well and you like the responses, cross that bridge when you come to it.

    Best of Luck.

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  11. Kurt Says:

    Women don’t really have to have sex by the third date, but they do need to make sure that the man is having a good time on the dates and feels appreciated. A lot of perpetually single women just don’t seem to understand this. If a man is planning and paying for dates, he needs to get something of value in return, otherwise he will just write off the woman as a lost cause.

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    • Eliza Says:

      Ok. Kurt. I agree. I feel both genders want and enjoy feeling appreciated. Regardless of who pays., A simple thank you–goes a long way. Now, whether that form of appreciation has to be with sex? Well, not every woman may be that appreciative…so soon. But yes, when there is a connection, things fall into place naturally. And it’s not a lost cause.

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      • LostSailor Says:

        Kurt has pretty much nailed it.

        As Private Man is wont to say repeatedly, women are the gatekeepers of sex and men are the gatekeepers of commitment. Your appreciation doesn’t have to be shown in booty, but it needs to be demonstrable. A simple thank you doesn’t go as far as you think; it’s really just common courtesy.

        If you want a man to wait for sexual access to your charms, you have to think about what else you bring to the table that a man wants. The usual response to “what do you bring to the table” is that a woman is smart, independent, confident, funny, and pleasant to be around. While that’s all great, it’s really pretty baseline stuff. It’ll get you on the Driveway to the Gates of Commitment but not to the Parking Lot of Commitment or through the Gates themselves.

        Women seem to fear that a guy is just interested in a pump-n-dump and men fear that they’re just being used as a dancing monkey with a wallet. To get beyond those fears on a mutual basis, women need to set a Swiss Guard around their Gate, but positive signposts to keep a guy on her Driveway. I’ve heard a lot of women say, “well, he gets the pleasure of my company.” Again, baseline.

        When Kurt talks about a man getting something of value out of his efforts, he means something that the man values–a lot of women don’t get that–and if it’s not knocking boots, then it needs to be something else, and it needs to be always moving the relationship forward.

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  12. LostSailor Says:

    Moxie’s right in her assessment of this woman, Jose. She’s clearly signalling that you’ll have to wait for any action and do the heavy lifting in any relationship. Personally I don’t get why she was telling you about her past dates at all, especially in a negative light. She’s nearly 50 and never married (any long-term relationship?). You’re 46 and say you have other options. Dude, why are you bothering considering this at all.

    It also seems the prospect of getting frisky is a primary concern. Personally, I don’t expect to have sex on any date I’m on. Sometimes it happens early, sometimes not. Instead, I focus on the escalation. As long as there is forward movement, it’ll eventually happen. If there’s not, then it’s time to decide whether what you are getting out of it is enough or it’s time to bail.

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  13. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    “The sex isn’t that important to the woman. For many women sex really is a means to an end because it has to be. It’s not so much what they want, it’s what the men want. They want the man in every sense of the word; it’s men who want the sex, and depending on the man they can take or leave the woman.”

    This accurately describes the problem, I think. All women use sex as a bargaining chip, to some degree. Telling a man you won’t have sex is like going to a poker game and announcing that you have no cash.

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    • Eliza Says:

      I don’t agree….to some women sex IS important. Some of us DO have hormones, and enjoy sex. Sorry to burst your bubble there. It’s not a means to an end. When you are attracted to someone, it comes naturally. You want that person. You want to get that close to them also. And NO–not ALL women “use sex as a bargaining chip”. I believe I am worth more than just sex. Trust me, men are more clever than what you appear to be giving them credit for. If you are not going to give it up soon–you don’t have to necessarily tell them that–verbally. There are other ways they will know or sense that. Some men can read body language very well. So, believe me…a lot of what we are communicating is coming from body language, not your mouth. It’s sad that you feel you need to use sex as some bargaining chip.

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      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        I’m sad that you’re sad. Cheer uo, its almost the weekend.

        If women generally enjoyed sex as an end, rather than a means to an end, the world would be a very different place. Don’t think of it as an opinion – but rather an unassailable rule of nature. If you look closely at your own decisions, I’m sure you will find more than one occasion where you had sex hoping that it would lead to something more than sex, notwithstanding that you enjoyed the physical sensation of the sex. If so, you have played a bargaining chip.

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  14. offensivedan Says:

    Eliza and Drivingmenutsack are both correct. There are other ways for a woman to let a man know she will not have sex with him. For example, lack of any physical contact during the date–that’s a pretty good indicator you will be going homne alone. Also, when a woman verbally tells me she does not have sex on the first date, to me, it is somewhat offensive and self-absorbed. I mean,just because you have a vagina it does not make you special. Also, how do you know I want to bang you?

    Also, Eliza, to most men, women are just a vagina with a talking mouth until they prove that they are worth more than just having sex with.

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    • trouble Says:

      Women should take note of the last sentence, no matter how bluntly worded. Its a fair point…if sex isn’t on the table, what is? Dating, particularly in your 40s, isn’t like dating in your 20s. I think that the real issue with the woman in the OP is that she appears to overestimate her value in the dating market. If you are almost 50 and still single, and you want to meet someone instead of just bitching about how much men suck, you better be prepared to be flexible. Men have a wider range of options than you do, and it is easy to screen yourself out. If you are also taking sex off the table, what are you doing to market yourself? You better be willing to meet a man halfway…date a wider range of men, make sure you don’t have a list of 83 must-haves. It is important to come to grips with how you are going to compete with younger women and know what men are looking for. And if you don’t, unless you are dating men 10-20 years older, you are going to get nexted. Your sexual value is not what it was when you were 25.

      I think there can be advantages to dating a 40-something woman, but you better know what they are and work them. We can be a lot less dramatic than a 20-something, we know what we want, or should. We ought to be pretty comfortable with our bodies by this point, and if you aren’t, do what you need to get there. Cultivate being easy-going and low maintenance. A lot of women our age are good cooks, and that is very different from most 25-year -olds, so for god’s sake, cook for the man. Be someone who can enjoy drinking a beer and watching a game, without talking through it. Do what you need to do to look good without looking high maintenance. Be able to explain how having kids made you a better person and demonstrate that you are a good parent who takes care of your well-raised kids, if you have them. Give a damn good blowjob and give a lot of them. Listen to how the guys around you bitch about the women in their lives, and don’t do those things. Be someone that a guy would want to date and take around his friends and family. We have advantages, but we have to grasp that we have to sell ourselves. Otherwise, most guys simply have easier and younger options.

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      • Percy Says:

        Great post trouble. Unfortunately, you be all those things you mention, but still not ‘good’ enough for a guy!

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  15. Bree Says:

    Let me also say this…I know a lot of married folks and married men’s number one complaint is lack of sex……So it’s just funny to me how men put all of this emphasis on sex and even if a woman “plays the game” and fu*** you like your paying her thousands of dollars for it, the reality is that this type of sex doesn’t always continue after marriage and especially after kids. So men if you want to stay married yeah you better make sure a woman can bring a hell of a lot more to the table besides just sex.
    I think if men didn’t feel a serious sense of obligation to their wife and kids and take their vows as seriously as women do more than half of the marriages in existence now would be annulled in the first month or two.
    I’ve talked to men who said their wife didn’t have sex with them on their honeymoon……I personally love sex and fu** my husband to death. So i’m like wtf type of bullsh** is that!
    Yes men women do have much game and issues. But yall thinking that sexing a woman before a relationship and marriage will guarantee you a life of sex and great head need to think again and recognize. It Will Not. Many women don’t give head as much after marriage. Fella’s please recognize whats really going on. Talk to more folks who have been married for a long long time. More important than how quick the woman will give it up and if she has skillz in the bedroom is will she continue to do all she did when you were dating After you put a ring on it. That’s what you guys need to be trying to find out.

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  16. Anna Says:

    oh, please stop this car- wreck and freak show. moxie, do understand that any healthy person just visits here for laughs. A few regular poor souls though, glottons for punishment I suppose, seem to take this vitriolic misantropic shit for something to be taken seriously. Moxie, I suggest that you finally deal with the fact that you are not beautiful. I know it stings, and it seems unfair. Something else that should sting is that altough you give blow job classes, men just dont care to much even then, are they? Just take some time for selfrection, adjust your expectations and get real. Then try to develop some empathy and respect, for yourself and for others. And, most importantly, close this hatefest of a website down!

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  17. EnTAOwed Says:

    Wow, that is really nasty & wrong Anna, in both senses. I see a bunch of healthy folks here, & most are not “misanthropes”. Folks are generally politely trying to understand each other & advocate for their viewpoints. People do tend to empathize too much with what they identify with, & this Blog is a bood antidote to that.

    Anna, YOU are acting like the misanthrope that you project on most others here! There is no possible other reason you would throw in an ad hominem attack about how Moxie is not beautiful, nobody cares she teaches woman how to give BJs (we really appreciate that, BTW), or suggest that she should adjust her expectations, show empathy & respect .

    You cite no evidence for such claims. Though there are times when Moxie has assumed negative factors not in evidence about those she disagrees with, this is not most of what she does, does not define the Blog, & most disturbing is that while she made no conceited personal claims, you feel the need to attack things like her attractiveness.

    You are living the stereotype of an embittered, angry woman.

    You have indulged in a hatefest. Physician, heal thyself. .

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