Why Many 1st Dates Never Result In a 2nd Date

We had some interesting questions at last night’s He Said/She Said event. Here are a few:

 

He Asks:

Why spend 3 1/2 hours on a 1st date and then no 2nd date?

Well, if this first date came from an online dating site, the likely answer is that the person you went out with had another date the next night and liked them more. If someone spends almost 4 hours with you and doesn’t think a 2nd date is warranted, you’re better off without them. Let’s be honest here…we know in a matter of minutes if we’re attracted to someone. If someone had a critical personality flaw, it’s unlikely that someone would be able to tolerate them for almost four hours. Which means that your date was either sticking it out to get laid, waiting for the opportune time to leave or is inherently flakey. Often times we’re so stuck in our head and projecting our feelings on to the other person that we can’t really tell what they think of the date. Last week I mentioned how I wouldn’t go out with someone who had viewed my profile multiple times without contacting me. It’s just an email, and it might lead to a simple drink. Let’s not overthink it. I feel the same way about people who go on dates and stay out for several hours only to email you the next day and say, “I don’t think we’re a match after all.” Really? Okay. Equally annoying are the people who use online dating sites, go on one or two dates with someone, and decide to “focus on that” but yet still keep an active profile and log in regularly. Um..what now? How is that focusing on your current situation?

Speaking of which, I came across a profile on OKCupid a few weeks ago that I thought was…interesting. The guy put a disclaimer at the top of his profile. It said that he had met someone on OKC and was no longer meeting anyone. Then he wished everybody luck. Question: why not just take down your profile? Oh, because you still want people to message you? Or is it so that you could put that statement at the top of your ad so that when the woman you’re dating checks to see if you’ve logged, she’ll see it? It’s one of the two. It is not that you’re a devoted boyfriend. So get over yourself. And girlfriend? If you don’t see the fact that he hasn’t disabled his profile as a huge red flag, you’re an idiot. Many women tend to see disingenuous gestures like that as complimentary when they’re not. (See the “what defines a gentleman” section below.) The guy put that in his profile not because he doesn’t want to date anyone else but because he wanted to be seen as a “devoted” or “honorable” guy. It was strategic, not authentic. Don’t be fooled.

 

He Asks:

Why is every cool, hip chick I know single and looking for a decent guy – i.e. me – yet when I approach – like a gentleman I may add – it is always an uphill battle?

Well, for starters, you say things like “cool, hip chick.”  Words like that went out with bell bottoms and lava lamps, Johnny Bravo. (Please, please tell me you get that reference.) So there’s your first hurdle. You try too hard, which indicates weakness. We’ve said this before…nothing is more unattractive than passivity and weakness. That’s the wrong kind of vulnerable. Sadly, most women just don’t respect that.

As for your gentlemanly approach, let’s break down that word. How men define what it means to be a gentleman and how women define it are two very different things. It’s appropriate that I am listening to “Hanky Panky” by Madonna right now as I type this. There are a few interesting lines in the song that I think explains what women really want.

I don’t want you to thank me/I just want you to spank me

Don’t slobber me with kisses/I can get that from my sisters

Don’t take out your hankerchief/I don’t wanna cry/I just want a hanky panky guy

I don’t like a big softie/I like someone mean and bossy

When many women say they want  a guy who is a gentleman, what they mean is they want a man who demonstrates how much he values/cares for/is attracted to her through insignificant gestures, like paying the check. Oddly enough (not really) those women tend to end up with asshole after asshole. Know why? Because they like assholes, they just don’t realize it.

Women want a man who is going to be assertive and take control and who will keep us on our toes. Some women want men who treat them poorly. Other women want men who challenge them, maybe even push their boundaries a bit. The truth is, we don’t want  a “nice guy.”  We just say that so we sound sensible and rational. The trick is finding that guy who possesses that unpredictability and grit while also displaying an accessible level of vulnerability. (See my imaginary boyfriend Jeremy Renner, pictures above.)

Photo credit – Esquire Magazine

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74 Responses to “Why Many 1st Dates Never Result In a 2nd Date”

  1. LostSailor Says:

    Yup. What Moxie said.

    4 hours on a first date and no second date? Either she’s a flake or you’re doing it wrong. That’s a hell of a long first date. Of the few first dates I’ve had that went on that long, the making out toward the end tended to extend things. So if you’re not locking lips after 4 hours, she’s probably a flake who used you for entertainment. Move on.

    As for “approaching like a gentleman,” just don’t do it. That doesn’t mean be rude or anything, but I strongly suspect that this guy’s concept of a “gentleman” is overly polite, deferential, perhaps even supplicating. Wrong, wrong, and wrong. Of course, it’s what he’s been he’s been taught to do by mothers, sisters, teachers, and the feminist culture. The man needs Game desperately. Johnny Bravo, he’s not. He’d be better off if he was.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 5

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    • Jesse Says:

      I dunno, I do this all the time. If I have a date, I don’t arrange for a back-up or plan b. I go out, make sure my date and I have a wonderful evening, and if it works good for both of us, there is a second date. But unless she ends it early, or is entirely disagreeable, I’m out for the night, trying to have a great time.

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  2. A tot he F Says:

    Ladies, guys are sick of hearing you ask where all of the “nice guys” are. They’re in the friend zone, where you left them.

    As for being a gentleman, do it. Just don’t be a wussy nice guy about it. Alphas can be gentlemen, but they must be dominant. Hold the door open for her, but decide where you’re going before you see her. Pick up the tab, but brook no discussion over her offering to pay. And so on….

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  3. nathan Says:

    ” Let’s be honest here…we know in a matter of minutes if we’re attracted to someone.” This is one of the big mistakes people make, especially with online dating. Assuming that instant physical attraction is the most important thing.You spend a few hours together, and because you didn’t feel all hot and bothered, you cut them loose. Or you do feel all hot and bothered and think the other person is great “relationship” material.

    The fact is you still don’t know each other. So, in terms of physical attraction, it’s much smarter to focus on whether there’s a complete lack of it or not. If you can’t imagine kissing or touching someone, that’s a much more useful sign.

    In my experience, instant, hot attraction has always led to miserable, fleeting relationships. Some hot sex and idiotic assumptions about being totally “right” for each other, followed by a hell of a lot of arguing and unraveling of projections.

    As for the picking apart of the dude’s profile, the real mistake he made was waxing negative. Speaking about not being able to get dates isn’t attractive, end of story.

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  4. Ashley Says:

    I like men who are assertive. A guy who can surprise me with a little bit of wit and charm without me having to pull teeth for it. BUT I for the love of God, do not want a Mr. I Wear The Pants And Call The Shots, You Just Sit There And Look Pretty type of guy. I dated that guy too and all they want to do is be everyone’s boss…no thanks!

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    • Cornelius Says:

      Assertivnesse without roughness is a balancing act for us guys. As far as the “friend zone,” I recognize the signals, smile, and move on. Some women maintain that they like the the main’s pursuit, as one said quaintly “courtship,” but anyone who plays hard to get generally is not worth getting.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        anyone who plays hard to get generally is not worth getting.
        I wish someone had beaten this into my head when I was a teenager; it took me over a decade to learn it on my own.

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      • Maria Says:

        Hard to get is not hard if you know their needs/wants.
        It is just respect during courtship and love and respect after.

        Even guys have heaps of criteria.

        Me…
        Personally i like sex. A lot. Several times a day if i can. I Like sooo miss having a boyfriend it is not funny.

        Even so i could not see myself with some people.
        My body gets like antarctica if the guy i am with
        – tries to explain why he,s right in everything and wants ego stroked
        – tries to explain why he could not get another date with other people like -i- am second choice
        – does not open the door
        – looks at other girls
        – calls me chick/ his mate.

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    • offensivedan Says:

      “BUT I for the love of God, do not want a Mr. I Wear The Pants And Call The Shots, You Just Sit There And Look Pretty type of guy. I dated that guy too and all they want to do is be everyone’s boss…no thanks!”

      Yeah, but you dated that kind of guy and methinks you will be doing that again. Typical chick nonsense.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 19 Thumb down 11

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      • Ashley Says:

        So I take it everything you have done once, you have done repeatedly?

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 6

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        • L Says:

          Trust me, he’s right. Classic chick posture and behavior. You say you don’t want something and someone comes along who makes your knees wobble but he’s like that. You won’t decline the opportunity.

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    • Howard Says:

      It’s the fine razor’s edge that provides the problems here, that balance of being a gentleman and being assertive.

      This puts many women in a position where they can’t find someone suitable. It’s a hard standard. Even when you do find someone, the boundaries will get surpassed from time to time. What do women do then? Call a guy a jerk, or weak. We are all complex beings. We are never in the same mode all the time. Everybody takes a day off.

      The other main problem is that this guy has to deal with is the fact that many people are problematic. The trick is, whether we want to deal with their problems or not. Sometimes rejection is a good thing. It saves us from later pain.

      People often can’t appreciate nice. And it works that way with both genders. They confuse niceness with weakness. Forget the dating arena, it’s that way with most of the people we meet in various situations.

      To the OP, clearly figure what you want. Be very assertive in enforcing the hard boundaries without being an asshole or getting worked up. Do it with a smile. Don’t cater, hold yourself out for the prize you think you are without coming off as arrogant. And let your words carry weight! Give people the chance to talk and hang themselves. But when you talk, be substantive.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

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      • Ashley Says:

        They just need to be somewhere near my level. Nice, but not a pushover. I’ve been a pushover most of my life so I know the battle, but I’m getting a lot better. If a guy is one of those “Oh I’ll do whatever you want to do, sweetie pookie pie” guys and doesn’t give me some space to breath… then I get bored because he’s offering no personality, no opinions of his own, no excitement, and I feel like I have to do all the work to spice things up and make the relationship exciting.

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      • Jesse Says:

        “…. You must deal with the fact that many people are problematic. …. do you want to deal with their problems or not.”

        Whoa, isn’t that it in a “nut” shell. — People who have their shit together are in way too short supply.

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  5. Mandy Says:

    It seems like most guys who complain about being a “nice guy” but can’t get a girl are actually either 1) a wussy guy, or 2) actually “a nice guy” but also a loser in some kind of way.

    For the former, a nice guy still opinions and wants and desires of his own, and has his own life outside of the girl he just met. What makes him a “nice guy” is that he’s honest with a girl and doesn’t play obnoxious games, and he respects women. Just having manners and holding the door open doesn’t make you a nice guy…that’s only a part of the package. No girl wants to be in a relationship with a puppy dog…figure out how to be nice, and be able to stand your own and get what you want at the same time.

    For the latter, you can a true nice guy but if you make people uncomfortable or are socially awkward, or just an overall loser in some way (i.e. lives in mom’s basement and can’t do your won laundry), it doesn’t matter that you’re a nice guy.

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    • Ashley Says:

      Exactly.

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    • LostSailor Says:

      While I generally put more import into what a woman does rather than what she says, this is a glimpse into the female ID and an example of how women, on a visceral level, view and react to genuinely nice guys. “Nice guys” are either wussies or losers.

      What you’re describing is not really a “nice guy.” It’s a guy who is confident, dominant, has his shit together, has options, won’t put up with your BS, knows what he wants, and doesn’t treat you like crap (at least not most of the time). In other words, pretty much what Moxie described above…

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      • Saj Says:

        Nice is a term used when you don’t have anything else good to say about the person. You can’t say he was hot, you can’t say he was sexy or interesting so you settle on “nice”. Doesn’t mean that’s what defines him.

        The take charge guy I can see as being good for a sexy short term thing because it means he may surprise you in the bedroom which is always exciting but I think it would drive me nuts in a long term relationship.

        Take the roles Jeremy Renner does as I know nothing about the person. He’s not that good looking but I get it. He’s not bossy, he’s not assertive so much as just appears capable and seems like you can rely on him. I guess some guys know how to carry themselves to convey this without saying it.

        The so called Nice Guy stereotype are the guys who are passive, unsure, wishy washy and want the girl to take ALL of the risks while they risk nothing.

        Girls like a guy they feel like they can rely on. He seems smart so they can ask for advice. He can help with a problem. He can take care of himself and maybe provide for her. He has interesting opinions and can have an engaging conversation with rather then just defer to you or talk over you.

        Because girls have called them nice rather then annoying, clingy, passive aggressive, unattractive which is what she is REALLY thinking he just gets it all backwards and thinks he has to be an asshole to score and then hates himself for it when he does.

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        • Trouble Says:

          I like nice guys. I don’t like passive-aggressive manipulative guys who try to get into my panties by pretending to be my friend. Those guys aren’t nice, at all.

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      • Mandy Says:

        “While I generally put more import into what a woman does rather than what she says, this is a glimpse into the female ID and an example of how women, on a visceral level, view and react to genuinely nice guys. “Nice guys” are either wussies or losers.”

        No, I said that the guys who think they’re nice guys but are having problems dating are either wussies or losers. The actual nice guys are having no problem at all in that area. Well-adjusted women fall all over themselves to date an actual nice guy (and an actual nice guy doesn’t want the drama queens with baggage anyway).

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        • LostSailor Says:

          “guys who think they’re nice”? Well, either they’re nice or they’re not nice. I get it, though; they don’t get your motor running, so they’re consigned to the pile of wussies and losers. A guy with some edge who doesn’t treat you badly (well, not much) is a “nice guy” because he does get your motor running. And he’ll continue to be considered a “nice” guy right up until the moment he bails, then he becomes a jerk, douche, or asshole, take your pick.

          I’ve seen it happen countless times.

          Well-adjusted women fall all over themselves to date an actual nice guy (and an actual nice guy doesn’t want the drama queens with baggage anyway).

          Sure.

          Women fall all over themselves to date the confident hot guy, they’ve just be conditioned to call him “nice” because they’re attracted. “Nice” = you’re attracted to him. “Wussy” and “Loser” = you’re not attracted to him. And no man, nice, wussy, or loser wants a drama queen with baggage, at least not for more than a night or so…

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  6. offensivedan Says:

    I’ve got a lot to say about this topic. However, my advice to men is just be yourself. Look at the comments above posted by women, including Moxie. The comments either blame the man for being “too nice” or the comments reflect different opinions on what kind of guy these women like. What man wants to go through the trouble of fitiing exactly what these women want in a man. So, don’t do it.

    Here are my rules when it comes to women:

    1) Be yourself. Never change yourself for some chick. At the end of the day, the only women who will stick by you through everything is your mom and sister.
    2) On a date, you are not there to entertain. You are there to get laid, at some point. If it does not appear that will happen, call it a day and move on.
    3) Do not chase. Call and if she does not return your call, forget her.
    a) If she is distant or not there during a date , just leave.
    4) Do not spend money or take her to dinner on the first date.
    5) At the end of the first date, kiss her. That will weed out the time wasters. You should not spend more than an hour with a women without making a move.
    6) If you don’t want to open the door, then don’t do it. Just be prepared to accept the consequences.
    7) If she does not like your jokes or sense of humor or acts like an intellecutlaly superior person, forget her.
    8) If she tells you, you have offended her with a joke or comment, tell her, “nice to meet you” and leave.
    9) Split the bill on the first date. If she gives you tude, tell her she should not have eaten so much and say good night. (I’m kidding, but you get the gist)
    10) If she thanks you after the trouble and money you have spent tell her, “thanks, I’m glad we decided to go out.” Why? Most women are so self-entitled they don’t even thank men anymore for taking their asses out.
    11) If she calls you cheap, remind her that youa re not her dad or Hugh Hefner.
    12) Dress well. Apperances count and you will look more confident.
    13. If it does not work out or you don’t get a second date, do some self-inventory. However, realize that most women are crazy or have many more options than you.
    14. Only travel to see a woman if she is super hot.
    14, And if you end up single, lots of people are in your shoes. Plus, at least you are not paying alimony and/or child support, while your ex-is cavorting with other men.

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    • Howard Says:

      Add to the list,

      Know when to shut up. Most men talk too much. You may need to get her talking, but once she is talking, just shut up and listen. Your input will be to take the conversation in the direction you want it to go, with short funny, even shocking sometimes, spirted “mind of your own” input. You will then hear all you need to hear.

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      • Joey Giraud Says:

        Don’t let the conversation drift toward work, business, money or anything serious, ask her about her feelings, bring up subjects that evoke feelings.

        I’ve ruined too many good opportunities with inappropriately intellectual conversation, out of some naive idea that a woman could and should be my intellectual equal.

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        • Howard Says:

          It’s not about intellectual equal or not. Women enjoy communicating from a perspective of feelings and emotions. Men throw around logic, stats and so called facts. Figuring who is right is a fool’s game. It’s more important to be successful than right. The messenger of harsh truths is invariably killed(figuratively), especially if he keeps going on and on.

          The smart man knows how to get his point across concisely without repeating himself. Don’t give people too much to process at a time. This is going to create problems if that person is trying to process it with emotions and feelings. People do hear us. I have had people come back to me years later on some sharp one-liner I had given them.

          Sometimes I just ask that right short queston that leads them where they need to go. It’s a funny thing how much people hate when people harshly tell them the truth, but respond better when posed the right question. It gives people a face saving out, where they almost feel like they are discovering the truth for themselves.

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          • Joey Giraud Says:

            Everything you’re saying is true, but in this case I really meant intellectual equal, equally as curious and interested in wide and deep topics. I’ve only found one woman ( out of the score I’ve dated, ) who had that.
            Others had intellectual pretensions, but …

            Anyhow, it was a silly expectation. Not many men have much curiosity either.

            Now I seek a woman with a good heart and tolerance, without any better success.

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    • LostSailor Says:

      You’re kind of sending a mixed message there. You start with “just be yourself” and then proceed to list a lot of behaviors that simply aren’t part of most men’s inventory. If they’re just being themselves, and aren’t seeing dating success, then being themselves won’t help.

      What I think you’re really saying is “learn all these behaviors and mind-sets such that they become natural, then just be yourself.” Or perhaps, “be your own man first and foremost.”

      And Howard is quite correct. A man should be listening more than he talks. And not just with women…

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      • Joey Giraud Says:

        I think the idea is “be yourself. Oh,…… and be a man while you’re at it.”

        And talking less works online too. Real men don’t compose 500 word dating website posts.

        Richard Feynmann said, ” if you can’t explain it with short words, you don’t what you’re talking about.”

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  7. Crotch Rocket Says:

    Why spend 3 1/2 hours on a 1st date and then no 2nd date?
    Why spend 3 1/2 hours on a 1st date–period? You’re doing it wrong. Marathon dates create a false sense of intimacy, resulting in both people getting too invested, too soon. That will scare off many people (“too desperate”, “too intense”, etc.) once they’re alone and have time to think about what just happened.

    Remember, the primary goal of a date is to get the next date. Once that has been accomplished, it’s time to call it a night–and save some of the mystery for next time. As either PT Barnum or Walt Disney said, “Always leave them wanting more.”

    Why is every cool, hip chick I know single and looking for a decent guy – i.e. me – yet when I approach – like a gentleman I may add – it is always an uphill battle?
    Because you’re confusing “gentleman” with “doormat”; the latter is what women really mean when they call you a “nice guy”. Be confident and assertive–without being a jerk about it. If a woman makes dating her “an uphill battle”, move on. In most cases, you’ll find that she respects you for not putting up with her crap and comes chasing after you. The less you care if she does, the more likely it is to happen. But women don’t chase doormats; they wipe their feet on doormats when bringing the assertive guys home.

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    • offensivedan Says:

      Also, you ahve to recognize when a women is not interested. A woman who likes you will not make it difficult for you. However, if you find yourself putting a lot of work iinto seeing a chick, it’s not worth it. Let her come to you. If she likes you, she will. As a man, you need to remember you have value in today’s society, whether its your education, your character, money etc. Don’t let some chick mess you up b/c she’s not interested. Let her get banged by some other guy, who she will later refer to as a d-bag to her minions.

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  8. L Says:

    The column is written in its usual style of “blame the guy for everything” and project your own assumptions into his mind and label him. Stop trying to invent rules, there ARE none.

    Yes, 4 hours is a long first date.But sometimes that happens. Sometimes long first dates turn into 2nd dates and sometimes they don’t. Sometimes short first dates turn into 2nd dates and sometimes they don’t. Sometimes drink dates turn into 2nd dates and sometimes they don’t, sometimes dinner dates turn into 2nd dates and sometimes they don’t. You get the picture. Stop overanalyzing.

    He may have just been having a nice time and didn’t feel any impetus to cut it short. He may have felt that he needed to take that time to fully get to know her before he made his decision.

    It is a BIG BIG mistake to make decisions about people “in a matter of minutes”. Do that and you will surely continue to be single forever. Go ask your married friends if that ‘s how they made their decisions about their husbands/wives. Someone else said it best. If you can’t imagine kissing this person after spending a little time with them, it’s probably best to move on. However, ugly people end up in relationships. You know how? By giving the other person a shot and seeing if it can develop. So bottom line, if you think it’s absolutely impossible for you to develop attraction to this person or can’t see yourself kissing him/her, move on. But if there is even the remotest possibility, give it a chance. People have proven over and over that this can work. But if you expect your knees to wobble as soon as you meet, get a lifetime subscription for this site.

    And one more thing. Enough of this “nice guy” stuff. I hate to break it to you, but there are tons of “nice guys” out there who are not doormats and have full lives. But they just may not have the ability to make you wet from just spending a few minutes with them. That’s basically what you have to choose from. There are very few guys who can truly make your hormones ooze all over as soon as you meet them. Love is about development of feelings and it can significantly accelerate attraction.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      What is the difference between “we know in a matter of minutes if we are attracted to someone” and “if you can’t imagine kissing someone after spending a little time with them?”

      You know who advocates for people to be more patient and understanding when it comes to determining attraction? Unattractive people. Those people need to work on being more attractive and spend less time trying to convince everybody to see them differently.

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      • offensivedan Says:

        I’ve posed that question to many women. The “can you tell w/in a few minutes if you are attracted to a guy.” The vast majority said yes. Unfortunately, that’s the way it is. These days you don’t get much of a shot to make a lasting impression. Most women have options.

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      • L Says:

        Well, you’d be wrong based on what I’ve been told.

        Anyway, to answer your question, if there is no difference in your mind … then there IS no difference. Problem is … for too many women, they don’t even try because they want their knees to wobble. There is a very big difference between having your knees wobble (as a measure of attraction) and whether you think you MIGHT be able to kiss someone. Sometimes, you don’t even know until you try.

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      • Chester Says:

        That reminds me of the movie “Liar LIar” ….
        The child said “… said that beauty is on the inside”
        Lawyers response” Only Ugly people say that”

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  9. Gorb Says:

    The problem is with the culture.

    In general, modern American culture worships the female-imperative respecting, calm, reserved but emotional man. This meme which men are taught, which includes “just be yourself”, are inherently devastating for mens’ dating potential.

    Women say these things, as Moxie says, to appear rational. Despite all the rhetoric and words and ideology and gender-neutralism out there, virtually no women live by this gender-neutral quasi-feminist creed. In fact, the hardest-core feminists, when not lesbians, often date the jerkiest jerks. Like all humans, they make up a vast range of excuses in their heads as to why they do this, but the short of the matter is:

    They want a dominant male who exudes power, social competence and resources, or at least the appearance of these things. This can be delivered in degrees, of course.

    But the mistake is taking women at their word.

    Go to Chateau Roissy or Athol Kay. Roosh is also good. Learn Game.

    Stop listening to women so much; this is a disease meme that has been infecting men far too much. Watch what they do, ignore what they say. What they say is largely disinfornation, with which they fool themselves.

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    • offensivedan Says:

      “They want a dominant male who exudes power, social competence and resources, or at least the appearance of these things. This can be delivered in degrees, of course. But the mistake is taking women at their word.” Great points. Never take a woman at her word or try to figure her out. Also, this si why women are so easy to lie to.

      Gorb, I have read Roosh’s seminal book, “Bang.” However, it’s no good for starting a relationship with a woman. However, ZRoosh is correct in that we , as men, should not put women on apedestal Further. at the first inkling of bullshit from them, we should take off It’s a matter of self-respect and taking our “balls: off of womens’ shelf..

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      • Gorb Says:

        Um, I agree totally, but for this; Game is essential for startign relationships with women. Crucial, in fact.

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      • LostSailor Says:

        Roosh is indeed about getting laid, not that there’s anything wrong with that, but why isn’t the same behavior and frame of mind good for starting relationships? Gorb is right, there’s no difference.

        But if you’re going to high-tail it at the “first inkling” of BS from a woman, you’re going to be in for many lonely nights. The better approach is to learn to effectively deal with the BS, because if you can handle it well, there will be less of it to handle.

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  10. Gorb Says:

    Lost Sailor has it sharp:

    <I.As for “approaching like a gentleman,” just don’t do it. That doesn’t mean be rude or anything, but I strongly suspect that this guy’s concept of a “gentleman” is overly polite, deferential, perhaps even supplicating. Wrong, wrong, and wrong. Of course, it’s what he’s been he’s been taught to do by mothers, sisters, teachers, and the feminist culture. The man needs Game desperately. Johnny Bravo, he’s not. He’d be better off if he was.

    Do like the culture tells you, and watch the very women who tell you to behave like this walk away from you.

    Despite the apparent desires, women are still human animals, and what they want hasn’t changed. It’s programmed into them on several levels, the same way men are programmed. You can deny the existence of the program, but you do this at your peril.

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  11. Nathan Says:

    I disagree with the idea that most women want a dominate man. From what I have seen, the women who say this want dominant and take charge in the beginning. They want a man to do most of the work to get the relationship going, and to “prove” he’s got balls or whatever. The hot guy who steamrolls over everyone at work, pays for fancy, exciting dates, has a strong opinion about everything, does exactly what he wants, regardless of what the other person wants. These women eat this shit up. Some even marry these dudes. But inevitably, all that dominance gets old. They grow tired of being in dudes shadow, having their needs ignored, being in a relationship run completely by him. For those who are slow about all of this, it’s usually when children are involved that the shit finally hits the fan.

    It’s not dominance, its confidence being looked for. Most of us want a confident partner, but alot of us mistake things like arrogance, dominance, and controlling for confidence.

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    • LostSailor Says:

      We’re talking about two different things here. Women indeed want a dominant man and they’re inherently attracted to such a man. But dominant does not mean domineering. As a relationship develops, the smart man will start to mix in some comforting “beta” behavior. In an long-term relationship, he’ll still need that confident dominant frame to maintain the attraction, but he won’t have to run it so hard.

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      • nathan Says:

        My point is that many women confuse asshole traits for confidence. Then they eventually wake up, but sometimes not before a lot of damage is done. The smart man is the one who is confident in who he is, and how he acts in the world. There’s no need for such a guy to think about things like mixing in “beta” behaviors. It’s just there, from the beginning. Along with the assertiveness.

        A fair number of regular male commenters on here like to push Game. There are some things worth learning there, but it’s like training wheels on a bicycle. Use it until you get your balance, then leave it behind. Otherwise, it’s like putting on a dog and pony show to attract or keep a woman. Smart women know you’re gaming them, and find it amusing, annoying, or both. Others might be attracted to the personality you’ve constructed to hook them, but would probably find the real you less appealing.

        So many of these conversations come back to something really simple: “confident people are attractive.” We want to put a gender box around it all, but few want to date someone who is clingy, mushy, and spineless. How confidence is expressed may look different to some degree between men and women, but it still boils down to confidence.

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        • fuzzilla Says:

          >There’s no need for such a guy to think about things like mixing in “beta” behaviors. It’s just there, from the beginning. Along with the assertiveness.<

          Exactly.

          Personally I want a guy who's dominant in the bedroom but otherwise is simply my best friend.

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        • LostSailor Says:

          My point is that many women confuse asshole traits for confidence. Then they eventually wake up, but sometimes not before a lot of damage is done.

          Then perhaps they need to develop better filters.

          The smart man is the one who is confident in who he is, and how he acts in the world. There’s no need for such a guy to think about things like mixing in “beta” behaviors. It’s just there, from the beginning. Along with the assertiveness.

          You seem to think that those traits just flow naturally for a lot of men. The problem is that’s just not true for the huge swaths of this country where those traits have been trained out of them. Those men are condemned with derogatory language as wussies and losers.

          A fair number of regular male commenters on here like to push Game. There are some things worth learning there, but it’s like training wheels on a bicycle. Use it until you get your balance, then leave it behind.

          I’m one of those regular male commenters. But you’re confusing PUA tactics, games, and routines–which are training wheels–with Game, which is more about internalizing the behaviors and traits that are attractive to women. Once you start learning the latter, you can leave the former behind. But Game is about become a better man and can’t be left behind. Game provides the tools for a man to become more naturally what you advocate men should be.

          Smart women know you’re gaming them, and find it amusing, annoying, or both. Others might be attracted to the personality you’ve constructed to hook them, but would probably find the real you less appealing.

          When Game is done right, no, not even smart women will know. PUA tactics have become better known, and may be spotted by the aware woman. Game done right becomes the real you.

          How confidence is expressed may look different to some degree between men and women, but it still boils down to confidence.

          Confident masculinity is attractive to women; confident femininity is attractive to me.

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          • fuzzilla Says:

            If it’s all a learning process, how about not “learning” to equate caring and empathetic behavior with “beta” behavior in the first place? True, people need to earn your trust and care, but “confident” and “caring” are not either/or propositions.

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            • LostSailor Says:

              Who the hell said anything about learning Game equated with not being caring?

              Each man has to learn on his own, keeping what works and discarding what doesn’t. Upthread I specifically noted that as relationships progress confident dominance needs to be tempered with such things as caring and empathy. It wasn’t me that defined caring and empathy with beta behavior, it was our feminized culture. It was by the actions of women who by their actions usually find such caring, empathetic behavior unattractive such that they dismiss men who exhibit caring and empathetic behavior as wussies and losers.

              No one ever said that confident and caring were mutually exclusive.

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            • nathan Says:

              Lost Sailor, I hear you that many men are not naturally what I describe above. I’d consider myself “still working on it” as well. At the same time, I don’t find myself constantly being rejected or ignored. Which has almost everything to do with being who I am without apology, but also offering basic respect and caring towards others. It has little to do with any specific dating skills or tools I’ve learned. I’ve picked up some helpful tips over the years, especially around online dating, but all of that was secondary to the deliberate focus on becoming a person who respects himself and others.

              What usually turns me off about much of the dating advice by men for men is that it’s based upon the idea that most women want X, are attracted to X, etc. Or it lumps women into a few shallow categories, and then offers behaviors and approaches based upon those shallow categories.

              I also tend to question the ways in which the same advice frames male attractiveness as a certain set of behaviors and skills to master. It’s too reductionist, and offers a limited picture of masculinity.

              Women are individuals, as are men. While some generalized stuff can get you more attention, in the end, it’s always make or break based upon the specifics of each person. Along those lines, the same behavior can be assertive looking in one person, and highly arrogant in another. It’s not just about mastery. It’s about who a person is, and how they generally operate in the world. Someone who is regularly obnoxious can learn ways to be more assertive, flirt better, etc., but if they don’t deal with the obnoxiousness, then it won’t really fly.

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              • LostSailor Says:

                Nathan, I get you. I’ve read some of your blog. The difference is that you’re a feminist and Sensitive New Age Guy; I’m not. That doesn’t mean I don’t respect women, but beyond the basic human respect we all should have for each other–until one demonstrates they don’t deserve it–I’m not extending any special privileges.

                It seems to me that you’ve absorbed some good Game principles, but you’re trying to force them into a feminist, SNAG frame, which is counter-productive. As is evident in that you don’t seem to really understand what I’m writing.

                But, hey, if it’s working for you to your satisfaction, good on ya. But I wouldn’t recommend any other guy to follow your advice. It may be a road to get there eventually, but it’s a slow road, and I’m not convinced that it can actually reach the destination.

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                • fuzzilla Says:

                  Where did he say anything about “special privileges”?

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                • SB Says:

                  I am not referring to specifically this post, but taking all of your posts together…I am convinced that Lost Sailor is one of the smartest guys on this site. (note, I said ONE of the smartest; I know there are others who have good viewpoints, too).

                  But this post series on game seems dead on to me. Especially the part about how to draw it into LTRs; IME, most men don’t know how to move out of the initial attraction-generating phase (which works) and into the relationship phase, which can sink a relationship. It will also annoy your woman who probably wants to relax a bit and enjoy you and the relationship after all the work of getting each other into one. Just my opinion, of course, but it seems about right.

                  Thanks for your posts, LS.

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                  • nathan Says:

                    Lost Sailor, you wish to be right, but we simply have different approaches. You also seem to blame feminism for all the dating woes, which is far too simplistic.

                    People love to take pot shots at feminism, believing it’s anti-male, and only one theory. There are dozens of feminist theory frameworks. Some are much more male-friendly than others. Some things need to be critiqued as well. But just as it’s true that I’m not extensively knowledgeable about the variations of Game, PUA, and the like, you – and most Americans frankly, know little about feminism. It’s an easy boogeyman, first tossed about by conservative men who were pissed they were loosing the freedom to do whatever they please with women, and is now in the mainstream water.

                    Plenty of men have figured out how to be confident, assertive, and even dominant in this modern American landscape. Game may be one way to do that, but it’s not the only way. I’m offering a different way. Women have literally thousands of books, bloggers, and dating “experts” offering them endless ways to approach dating me. Frankly, it”s time that men get into the game and diversify as well.

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                    • fuzzilla Says:

                      >You also seem to blame feminism for all the dating woes, which is far too simplistic.<

                      Good God, yes! The fact that he read your response as "well, feminism = women want special privileges" was enlightening (in helping me understand his assumptions about feminism, that is). LS, women don't want different/better/"special" treatment, just equal and fair treatment. I always remember this quote from a blogger re: listening to the majority bitch about the "special privileges" of minorities: "That's like bitching that there's a Mother's Day and a Father's Day but not a Kid's Day. You know what? EVERY DAY is Kid's Day…"

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                    • Crotch Rocket Says:

                      women don’t want different/better/”special” treatment, just equal and fair treatment.
                      That’s what women say out of one side of their mouth, but out of the other they’re saying that “whoever asks should pay” and “men should do the asking”, i.e. they’re expecting special privileges simply because they possess a vagina.

                      Feminism, as commonly practiced in the US, only demands equality when women benefit; it mysteriously vanishes and is replaced with traditionalism any time a man might benefit from equality.

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                    • LostSailor Says:

                      Lost Sailor, you wish to be right, but we simply have different approaches. You also seem to blame feminism for all the dating woes, which is far too simplistic.

                      Well, I know I’m right, at least for me, and my experience and approach is echoed by that of thousands of other men. As I noted above, if your approach is working for you, great. My opinion is that your approach, if practiced by other men, will still leave them in dating hell.

                      I don’t blame feminism for all dating woes, but the changes wrought on our society and culture by feminism have definitely changed the sexual marketplace, giving extensive advantages to women and some of the high-status men they’re attracted to. Combine that with the way the culture constantly belittles men, and I see that feminism has in many ways harmed a majority of men in dating, relationships, and especially marriage.

                      you – and most Americans frankly, know little about feminism. It’s an easy boogeyman, first tossed about by conservative men who were pissed they were loosing the freedom to do whatever they please with women, and is now in the mainstream water.

                      Actually I’ve read a fair amount of academic feminist literature. But plain old observation and reason reveal quite a bit, too. The old men “losing freedom to do whatever they please with women” is a trope and a misleading one. Focusing on the sexual marketplace, in many ways feminism has freed men–at least the ones who know how attraction works–to do pretty much just that. Hence the growing lament the guys are just “douches” and “jerks” only interested in cheap sex. Many guys are, because they can be, because women still respond to them, there’s usually little consequence. Women’s sexual liberation liberated these guys, too.

                      Game may be one way to do that, but it’s not the only way. I’m offering a different way.

                      You should really look into it more. Having read some of the advice on your blog, all I know is that I won’t be following it.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

                    • LostSailor Says:

                      @fuzzilla

                      The fact that he read your response as “well, feminism = women want special privileges” was enlightening (in helping me understand his assumptions about feminism, that is). LS, women don’t want different/better/”special” treatment, just equal and fair treatment.

                      I don’t want to jam Moxie’s comments with a discourse on feminism. But there is no better example of the “special privileges” of rights without responsibilities achieved by feminism than in sexual relations, reproduction, and marriage. I could cite numerous examples, and would be happy to ask Moxie to provide you with my email if you want to discuss off the blog. Here isn’t the place for it.

                      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

                    • Nathan Says:

                      LS – 1. I never claimed to have the answers for everything or everyone. If you don’t like what I am blogging, feel free to move on.

                      2. I am less interested in giving black and white advice, and more interested in getting people to actually think about their own lives and situations. Definitely not as sexy as being a bad ass with all the answers, but that’s what I am aiming for.

                      3. The sexual marketplace is a mess for numerous reasons. Including the fact that many of us treat each other like objects in a store. If someone doesn’t have the “total package” they’re expendable. And since most of us are expendable under those terms, we go around playing all sorts of gamesand making all sorts of lies and personas up in an attempt to appear to be something we aren’t. Or more importantly, something we wouldn’t choose to be if the shopping mentality weren’t there.

                      Oh, and the assholes have always been around. Feminism didn’t create them or liberate them.

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                • Maargen Says:

                  First of all, I want to say how much I appreciate posts like the ones on this thread by Nathan and LostSailor (and some others). Although they don’t agree with each other, they both offer a useful, thoughtful perspective. Thanks!

                  LostSailor, when you say “…I wouldn’t recommend any other guy to follow your advice. It may be a road to get there eventually, but it’s a slow road, and I’m not convinced that it can actually reach the destination.”

                  How are you defining the “destination”? I’m having trouble understanding if you’re describing short term tactics designed to attract “women”, or long term behaviours designed to develop and sustain a positive LTR.

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                  • LostSailor Says:

                    The “destination” will be different for different guys and will undoubtedly change with time. For some guys, especially younger guy, it might just be sex. But I am referring to–and believe Nathan is too–relationships, whether short- or long-term. If those relationships are to be successful, attraction must always be maintained, along with a level of comfort and intimacy.

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  12. fuzzilla Says:

    Anti-feminists and doods steeped in “Game” theory also tend to lump all women together and say that “all” of them do what in fact only some of them do (personally, I’m fine initiating, paying my way, etc.).

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    • LostSailor Says:

      Yes, yes. Not all women are like that. The thing is that enough women, even the majority, are. There is actual science to back up a lot of game theory. And I never said I was “anti-feminist.” Years ago if you’d asked me about it I would say that I agreed with most feminist goals, though not to Nathan’s extent. Today, however, I increasingly see some of the ills and unintended consequences in how feminism has changed our society. Being critical of some of those changes is not automatically anti-feminist. Can feminism not take criticism?

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      • Maargen Says:

        I see the “feminism” issue as a pendulum. For too long women were subjugated by men. Pushing back against this led to extremes. These extremes caused their own push back. All of this is necessary to ultimately finding the right balance.

        I don’t know what equilibrium will look like (although I think we’re getting closer and closer) but my hope is that we’ll come to realize that we (men and women) gain much more by cooperation than by opposition. We won’t need words like “feminism”, the focus will be on “humanism”: creating social, political and cultural frameworks that promote the health and well-being of the majority of the population.

        When I think of the “the ills and unintended consequences in how feminism has changed our society” I can certainly understand that from a man’s perspective, “feminism” is a culprit. But in the long run, when men and women are able to choose roles that fit them naturally, rather than the ones that are forced on them regardless of what their individual strenghts and weaknesses might be, we’ll all be better off.

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        • Nathan Says:

          I want to point out that above, I said there are things with feminism in need of critique. I don’t stand in lock step with any theory or approach. I can certainly understand male frustration with women who choose to selectively apply feminist ideas to benefit themselves. But that’s more about selfishness and a shallow understanding than about feminism itself as a whole.

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  13. BeingSingleIsCool Says:

    1. feminism:
    Women were once without human rights. They were bought and sold as livestock and slaves. The women’s rights movement is immensely good for humanity. Everything else about feminism is just modern political differences. I doubt the people in this thread disagree on the fundamental issues of human rights and citizen’s rights for women, so I’d recommend getting back to the issues brought up in the post about specific dating situations.

    2. generalizations about women/men:
    Such generalizations are helpful for some types of marketing, etc., but I think they are not helpful for finding your true best match in dating, wherein you should be looking for someone with the UNIQUE combination of qualities that makes them the right match for your own UNIQUE combination of qualities. I think people would be cheating themselves and their date if they change themselves for a date to appear the way others told them the opposite sex in general wants them to be like. You aren’t going to marry the middle chunk of a Gaussian distribution curve. You are going to choose a specific individual.

    3. reasons to flake after a 4-hour date

    I have been on these types of lond first dates, and the reason is that I’m a talkative extravert. I get “high” from social contact with almost anyone. It’s a buzz for me. I’m the person who will make my next best friend talking to a stranger on the bus. Do to my extravert social-high phenomenon, sometimes I let first dates last too long while I blab away and giggle, and it isn’t until I have time alone and my extrovert-high died down that I can reflect in a more sober and clear-minded way on what I think of the person. And then with my sober mind of solitude afterward, sometimes I realize huge red flags during my reflection that I didn’t recognize during the date when I was too giddy/high-on-socializing/thrilled with a gourmet dinner/etc.

    This is NOT a sex/gender issue I’m bringing up, since extroversion/introversion is a unisex personality trait. I don’t like when dating discussions devolve into gender labelling, when in fact so much of what characterizes us is not gendered/sex traits but simple human traits. Anyway, I just wanted to put out there that there is this other possible explanation for flaking after a long date.

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