Why Dating 2.0 Scares Men

Name: John
Age: 45
State:NY
Question: My divorce was finalized 12 months ago and now I am online dating for a couple of months. I am not looking for a casual hookup but something with LTR potential. Here is a scenario that happened with a woman I met.

She is 45, divorced and has 2 preteen kids.  She lives about 30 minutes from me. She drives and has her own car. She doesn’t work since she is home all day and doing errands, taking kids places, etc. I didn’t directly ask her how she supports herself, house and 2 kids but she is clearly not working and I get the impression she hasn’t in some time. She never mentioned anything about being laid off and  she didnt mention anything about money being tight. So maybe she has income from other sources but it is something I am curious about. But after 1 date, I didnt think it was appropriate to ask her about this.

Our first date we met for a drink and it ended with a good makeout session. It was a 4 hour date. On date #2 I went to her place to pick her up and we went to lunch. I had to be at work by 4pm hence, the lunch date.Her kids were at day camp. After lunch we went back to her place and she was all over me and wanted sex. I didnt have a condom so I didnt, but the fact I had to get back to work provided the perfect way out. It just seemed too soon to jump into bed anyways.

She said we would do it the next next night which was a Friday night (and presumably I would be condom ready). But then she said that she wanted me to drive to her and pick her up, drive back to my place, have dinner and sex and then drive her back to her place and then for me to come home. WHen I asked if it would be possible for her to just drive to me, she said the guy should always pick up the girl. I lost all interest in seeing her. I dont even know her that well to the point that I dont even know what she does for a living so having sex seems like it is too soon for me.

It seems to me like she is looking for something casual. Since I am not, the ridiculous driving I had to do and not even knowing something as basic as to how she makes a living, made it seem too casual for what I am looking for.

I could have kept my mouth shut, do the roundtrip commute twice and had sex, but I felt like I was going through hoops. My best friend said I was nuts to pass up surefire sex on account of not wanting to jump through those hoops. So I am asking you to break this down for me. Maybe I am just not ready to be intimate with someone? Or is this a case of me just being picky?

 

I didn’t directly ask her how she supports herself, house and 2 kids

So maybe she has income from other sources but it is something I am curious about.

You know how she supports herself. Alimony. And? How is this in any way atypical for a divorced woman in your age range with children? What if she inherited money? Maybe she’s in the Mob. As long as she doesn’t try to leech off of you, I don’t see why this matters.  You’re analyzing the innocuous things that ultimately don’t matter unless you plan on marrying her and merging your finances.In short, you’re looking for a way out.

After lunch we went back to her place and she was all over me and wanted sex. I didnt have a condom so I didnt, but the fact I had to get back to work provided the perfect way out. It just seemed too soon to jump into bed anyways.

Okay. But if that’s what you truly feel, then why did you go back to her house? We say this to women all the time. “Don’t go home with a guy unless you plan on having sex with him.” Same rules apply, my brother. I don’t think you chose not to have sex because it seemed “too soon” or because you didn’t have a condom. Please.  When has not having a condom stopped anybody? Especially someone our age? Yes, I know…safety shamer!!! Whatever.  People do it all the time. They just typically lie about it so they can cling to the moral high ground. Congrats. You’re so special. You’re getting right into heaven, disease free. Boo yah!

You didn’t have sex with her because you were intimidated in some way and feared you couldn’t deliver. This wasn’t about catching The AIDS or fearing that you’ll be overpowered and chopped up and put into a box under her bed. Her assertiveness as well as her casual attitude towards the sex is what threw you. Citing  a lack of a condom and the “too soon” excuse just makes you sound discerning and reasonable. Again, you’re looking for a way out.

But then she said that she wanted me to drive to her and pick her up, drive back to my place, have dinner and sex and then drive her back to her place and then for me to come home.WHen I asked if it would be possible for her to just drive to me, she said the guy should always pick up the girl. I lost all interest in seeing her.

 

Right. She, like you, is justifying the sex. She needs you to “treat her like a lady”  so she can screw with wild abandon. I honestly want to bop the two of you upside the head. You could debate her on this and say it’s silly and needless. It won’t get you anywhere. She’s in her forties and divorced. She’s still living in a time when men called women. She likely hasn’t dated in close to 15 years. Our mystical ways confuse her.

You didn’t lose interest because of her request. It’s a 30 minute drive. Come on. You lost interest because you psyched yourself out.

This just in…many women make unreasonable and illogical requests. Welcome to Dating. Thinking you’ll find that one “sane” woman who doesn’t make such requests  is setting yourself up for failure. Either accept that you’ll have to do a little bit of harmless hoop jumping or buy those cats now. Women nowadays are far more assertive than they were when you were first dating. You, like Caveman Lady up there, have been defrosted after hundreds of years of being frozen in a chunk of ice. Remember Austin Powers? Yeah. Like that. The two of you are trying to get your bearings. She wants to be all sexually empowered, but she’s still clinging to antiquated rules so she can justify having sex. (Which must have made her a joy to be married to, btw.) You’re still thinking that femininity means being coy and reserved. Uh uh. Not any more. It’s odd, though, that you’re thrown by her sexual assertiveness, but you’re turned off by her old fashioned request that you pick her up.

So I am asking you to break this down for me. Maybe I am just not ready to be intimate with someone? Or is this a case of me just being picky?

No, you’re not being picky. That’s one of those famous excuses that women use to explain why no guy sticks around. Yes…they dumped him. Not the other way around, okay???? I could get on bored with your thought that you’re not ready to be intimate, though. You’re still figuring out how Dating 2.0 works. I think you need to get a better handle on that, and a better understanding of what constitutes “typical” or “acceptable” behavior before you embark on anything serious or physically intimate.

Bottom line? You’re just ready to get back out there yet. Baby steps.

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92 Responses to “Why Dating 2.0 Scares Men”

  1. Violet Says:

    I don’t think it’s unreasonable to not feel ready for sex on the second date after being married to the same person for god knows how many years. Also it’s not a 30 minute drive, it’s a 120 minute drive. This woman should not be rewarded for this sort of behavior. Unless he lives in the middle of no where, there is probably someone more reasonable out there.

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    • Howard Says:

      Lots of things are going on here. Yes, he probably has control issues. He should probably give up on that idea a bit. Yes, she is stuck in a time warp. She needs to be more flexible. I can see how that would put a guy off.

      Also, it’s ok to feel like not doing sex if you are a man. Of course it will result in the typical shaming or over analyzing on blogs, which he should ignore. No one shames or over analyzes a woman for not having sex this early.

      In the end we are all allowed to make this type of decision. Women should be happy that there are guys who will pull the plug rather than use them.

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  2. nathan Says:

    The rush to have sex, especially when one person isn’t ready for it, is a major problem with modern dating. I’m all for people wanting to have sex when they want to. First date. 6 months after meeting. Whatever.

    But there does seem to be more pressure to get it on really soon after meeting each other these days. And that choosing to wait a little bit often is interpreted as a sign of disinterest or some other problem.

    It’s almost like the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction in some mainstream dating circles.

    The guy didn’t want to have sex with her on the second date. There’s nothing wrong with that at all. They barely know each other, and he’s not looking for something casual. I think he made the right decision to step back and question things.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      And that choosing to wait a little bit often is interpreted as a sign of disinterest or some other problem.

      In a situation like this, where one person goes back to the other person’s place or comes up with funky excuses like they didn’t have condoms, there usually is another problem at work.

      The guy didn’t want to have sex with her on the second date

      No. The guy didn’t want to have sex with her. The date number wasn’t the issue.

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      • Nathan Says:

        So any guy who goes back to his or his date’s apartment and decides not to have sex is either screwed up somehow or not interested? Sorry, but that’s ridiculous.

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        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          Yes, that’s exactly right. If an adult male goes to a womans apartment or home after a date and he balks at having sex with her, he either has issues preventing him from closing the deal or isn’t interested. except for you, of course, because you’re soo different and evolved.

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          • Nathan Says:

            Moxie – if you ever wonder why you have so many shit storms and abusive comments directed at you, this is the kind of response that generates that. You act like you know what everyone is thinking in all dating situations and then make personal attacks when people disagree with you. If you feel the need to take m e down another peg, so be it. I said what I needed to say.

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            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              I don’t ever wonder about that, because I don’t crack every time someone looks at me cross eyed . Its strange that someone with such a self-professed “broad internet presence” does, though. You once placed you and I in the same league of relationship writers, hon, remember? I think you’re the one who needs to develop a thicker skin. You know, since you’re so well known and all.

              Welcome to the jungle.

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  3. Ashley Says:

    I understand why he was turned off by her request for him to do all the driving. If I were her, I wouldn’t have an issue driving to him once in a while, even if it was only a 2nd or 3rd date.

    I do find it strange he went back to her place if he thought it was too soon for sex, so I’m not really sure what was going on there but I don’t want to make any judgments about why he backed out.

    As for her income, I do think it’s a little soon for him to be asking about it. Having that said, I personally can’t blame him for being curious about how she makes money, but I have also had a history of having to deal with roommates and friends who are leeches. My guess is that she gets government assistance and child support, but she could also be getting income from other sources like the OP said. I know a woman who managed to buy an ipad, cell phones, trampoline, backyard pool, a new vehicle, a monthly tanning, hair, and nail package just this summer, and she admitted all she has coming in is child support and cash assistance. She also gets food stamps. It’s weird because I can’t afford that even though I work my ass of, but that’s just the way our system is set up I suppose.

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    • Nathan Says:

      Ashley, have you ever gone home with a guy thinking you were ready or wanting to have sex, and then changed your mind but still were interested in the guy? Women do this a lot. Why is it so surprising that men also change their minds about sex like this sometimes?

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        Why is it so surprising that men also change their minds about sex like this sometimes?
        I don’t see any evidence he “changed his mind” about sex. Her sexual aggression took him by surprise. If I took a date to lunch and she expected sex afterward, I’d be surprised as well because every first time I’ve had sex with a new partner has been at night. I wouldn’t be prepared in the middle of the day, and it’s so far out of my range of experience that I’d probably back off too; it just feels “off” somehow. During the week I have a job to get back to anyway–unlike this woman–so a nooner is off the table unless I rearrange my afternoon schedule in advance.

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        • nathan Says:

          Actually, you’re right. He even said himself that he hadn’t intended to have sex, only have a bit of making out.

          My point above was more generally getting at the idea that men aren’t driven by a single track to have sex that they never override. But that point isn’t as useful in referring to John’s particular situation.

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      • Eliza Says:

        I don’t find that unusual…people are entitled to change their mind. And if you just met someone–and within the first few dates you feel comfortable having them come into your apt., if you are not say, ready, and just sit there and have a glass of wine or water, I don’t see that as giving out the illusion–that you will put out. To think that way is very “narrow-minded”. Anybody has the right to go at their own pace. And by merely inviting a man or woman over after a date, before a date or just while someone finishes getting ready should mean they are sending some “signal” that they are ready for aciton. Nor should that person worry that they may be giving out the wrong impression.
        Not everyone has sex so soon. Doesn’t mean lack of interest.

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  4. John Says:

    This is the OP..
    Moxie- her job situation isnt my concern. But it is basic info. If someone doesnt tell you what they do for a living then to me that is a bit of a red flag. Maybe that flag would turn to green once it was known, but until that point, I would be skeptical. If I dont know someone well enough to know if they work and they arent sharing it, then I dont know them well enough to have unprotected sex. I dont have the right to know her job status. But I do have the right to say no to sex when unprepared especially when the trust factor hasn’t been established yet to any degree.

    As for the driving thing. It was 120 miles. It was 30 each way times 4. I would gladly pick her up if we were going out near her neighborhood and going to her place afterwards. But we couldnt because of the kids. If she wants to date, but cant go back to her place, then she needs to realize she needs to do the drive. Me doing 2 hours worth of driving just for the luxury of taking her to dinner and then the reward of sex quite frankly wasnt worth it to me. It seemed too casual for my liking.

    As for “expecting to do some hoop jumping”, I can understand that. But really by the 3rd date? If its that much work in the beginning then it will be that way always. I am sure there are women that dont lay down those hoops the first week of knowing someone. The ones that do are the ones not worth having.

    As for me being intimidated by her aggressiveness, I will give you that. It totally caught me off guard and I wasn’t expecting that. I thought going back to her place after lunch for a makeout session would be quite normal. Apparantly in Dating 2.0, the makeout sessions are no longer on the table and if you go to someone’s place, it means going all the way is expected. I guess I have a lot to learn.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Isn’t it obvious that her “job” is being a parent? Is that not enough for you? Why do you need to know more?

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      • John Says:

        If she told me that was her job then fine. But when I asked casually what she does for a living she never said that. Her response was “I dont discuss those things with someone I just met”. To me that is a red flag. And for someone who is the queen of red flags, that doesnt strike you as odd? If her reply was what you said then I would feel better about that. But she didnt say that at all. So I didnt presss the issue because that discussion happened in the first hour of our first date.

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        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          Well, that’s not how you framed it. But even still…..it’s kind of obvious what she does. If she’s home all day and shuttling kids back and forth and picking them up…she’s a stay at home Mom. Kind of a given, no? The chances that she’s doing something illegal are slim. So either she doesn’t want to be judged because she lives off alimony or she doesn’t want to be judged for doing something she fears others will consider insignificant. Even people who have questionable jobs know how to lie. So she’s obviously not doing anything shady, or else she’d just lie. Stop looking for problems.

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          • The D-man Says:

            Reminds me of a friend who went on a couple dates with a girl who was coy about her work. Turned out she was in the middle a criminal trial for embezzling!

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        • Dan Says:

          Her answer to your casual question about what she does for a living is strange. My guess is that she lives off alimony payments. Not sure about how these things work, but there is a potential financial burden with this woman.

          Also wanting sex but not wanting to share a basic piece of info about herself tells me she is not long-term material. I would advise you to ate younger, less complicated women.

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      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Also, maybe she wanted you to come pick her up so that she could make it look to her children like she has a date rather than just some appointment for sex? I’m assuming that, if she had to come home the same night, her kids were going to be there when she got home. So maybe she was just trying ot make sure she didn’t set a bad example for her kids?

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        • India Says:

          I do not know how old these kids are but I doubt your explanation has anything to do with the op’s story. “lesson to her kids” huh? I sure as well hope most divorced mom are not broadcasting their sex lives to their children, and further not using dating as a “teaching moment”.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          maybe she wanted you to come pick her up so that she could make it look to her children like she has a date rather than just some appointment for sex?
          How does who provides transportation have anything do to with whether it’s a “real” date or a faux date?

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        Isn’t it obvious that her “job” is being a parent? Is that not enough for you? Why do you need to know more?
        Being a good parent is obviously a job, but the real question is how she supports herself (and her kids). Whether you like it or not, most men are not interested in dating, or at least a LTR with, a woman whose only means support is child support, alimony, assets from a divorce and/or an inheritance. We want to see that a woman is capable of supporting herself, rather than living off of someone else’s money –because that “someone else” will most likely become him at some point in the future.

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        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          Whether you like it or not, most men are not interested in dating, or at least a LTR with, a woman whose only means support is child support, alimony, assets from a divorce and/or an inheritance.

          That’s petty. I could see if she were burning through her alimony and spending frivolously, but if she’s staying home and taking kids here and there and cleaning and cooking and making herself available to her kids, then it shouldn’t matter. If they were married she’d be doing the same thing. Only then you’d be more than happy to support her, because she’s raising your children. You can’t have it both ways.

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          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            you’d be more than happy to support her, because she’s raising your children.
            Because they’d be my kids. I’m not paying to support a woman raising some other guy’s kids. That’s his job, not mine.

            Also, unless some or all of the kids are under 5, they should be in school for most of the day. Even for small kids, most single mothers would put them in day care so she can work. (Day cares will now take kids as young as six weeks.) Heck, even many married women do that because a single income isn’t enough for most couples to make ends meet.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      But we couldnt because of the kids. If she wants to date, but cant go back to her place, then she needs to realize she needs to do the drive.

      Okay. But she doesn’t realize that. She’s still dating in the 90’s, when guys actually did that sort of thing. If you’re going to balk every time a woman you date makes an unreasonable request, stay home. You’re finding stupid reasons to justify why you didn’t want to sleep with her.

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    • Selena Says:

      Expecting you to make TWO round trips an hour each so she could get laid seems unreasonable to me also. I get it that she can’t have you at her place because of the kids, but if she really wanted to get something going with you she could either drive to you or wait until she could arrange a sleepover for her children. Since she didn’t want to do either…I can’t help but wonder if she thought sex with her should be reward enough for all that driving. For some men? I guess it might be.

      And I agree with Moxie, it’s pretty obvious her job is being a mom and her income most likely comes from her court ordered settlement. At 45, she could also have investments from inheritances as well. Why should she tell you how she supports herself before she knows you? How is it your business?

      Bottom line: it doesn’t sound like you were that interested in her anyway.

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      • Jonathon Factory Says:

        The income inquiry is of interest because dating a woman who’s completely happy to live off of her ex’s money is an unattractive proposition for a man who’s been through the wringer of divorce once already.

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        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          Ok, then divorced men shouldn’t date divorced women if they have a problem with those women living off alimony. Again, unless he’s planning on merging assets with her, why bother concerning yourself with something like this? And how is it his place to pass judgment on her even if she is living off alimony? Maybe she’s dying to work but can’t because she has two kids at home she has to raise. I know. Men get screwed financially in divorce. I understand. But don’t hate the player. Hate the game.

          It amazes me how divorced people walk around thinking they’re owed some kind of karmic do-over. Don’t want to get screwed over in a divorce? Don’t marry the wrong person or work harder to make your marriage work or come up with some other solution.

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          • John Says:

            Look, everyone has things that bother them. To me, a woman who lives off alimony would turn me off. I dont owe anyone an explanation why. It just does and those are people I would rather not be involved with. If Moxie you had a separate post on that issue I would comment as to why, but thats off topic for this particular article. And if it means that I reduced my dating pool then so be it. I am sure there are men that dont mind that at all and thats fine for them.

            Its no different than Moxie being turned off by a guy who wants to talk on phone a few times prior to meeting. Everyone has turn offs. For Moxie its the predate phone thing. For some guys including me, its living off alimony. For others it may be something else. No sense in trying to justify it. As long as you recognize and own it and dont string anyone along then no harm is done.

            I went on 2 dates with this woman, suspected she lived off alimony because she didnt offer any other reason why and I saw no future with her. Could I have gotten laid? Sure but only if I felt comfortable enough and only if it wasnt an inconvenience to me. Since neither existed, I declined.

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            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              f Moxie you had a separate post on that issue I would comment as to why, but thats off topic for this particular article.

              Actually? It’s not, because you opened that door by including it in your letter. There you go again with the convenient excuses. First it was the fact that she asked you to pick her up. Now it’s the alleged alimony that you don’t even know that she lives off of. Which is it? She’s never confirmed or denied that she works or doesn’t work. These are all assumptions that have yet to be confirmed. You have no idea how she supports herself, how much her alimony covers, etc. Maybe she has a trust, or maybe a parent died and left her money. Maybe she works in Arbonne or one of those types of multi-level marketing gigs that you can run at home. Who knows? Maybe she was fair to her husband in the divorce and didn’t screw him over. Just because you might have gotten raked over the coals doesn’t mean her ex did. And frankly, if you’re that bitter about it, stay home and don’t waste people’s time.

              A woman living off alimony is not a turn off for you. If that were the case, then you wouldn’t date divorced women with preteen kids, since it’s almost a guarantee that she’s getting alimony and not working much if at all.

              This woman intimidated you. That’s it. Stop creating imaginary reasons why you scampered away with your tail between your legs.

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              • John Says:

                Moxie,
                You only read what you want. I didnt have a problem picking her up. I explained that already. It was a double round trip I had issue with for potential date 3 which is far different than just picking her up. Now stop picking and choosing what facts you wish to apply because your readership is obviously not agreeing with you either based on the amount of thumbs down your comments have gotten.

                And I have dated divorced women with preteen kids. They worked regardless if they got alimony or not and I had no problem with it. And I did pick them up when we went out near them. And if they wanted to come to me then they drove themselves.

                This confrontational style of yours is probably the way you are in person too. And thats why you’re single. Of course the extra 25 lbs you carry can also be why.

                And since you like to dish out digs at people under the guise of advice, here is one for you that I should have mentiuoned when you put your photo up 2 weeks ago.

                Get off the treadmill and the elliptical. Stop doing those tricep kickbacks. That is so 90s and you must have been frozen and are now thawing out. You lost 50 lbs doing it that way? Great. you still have another 25 to go and that style wont cut it. Do some deadlifting and pullups and hill sprints. Welcome to Fitness 2.0

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                • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                  Now stop picking and choosing what facts you wish to apply because your readership is obviously not agreeing with you either based on the amount of thumbs down your comments have gotten.

                  I’m not picking and choosing anything. You’re the one coming up with reasons based on how the comments are swaying. Yesterday it was the condom issue. Today it’s the alimony. You don’t even know if she gets alimony! You don’t even know if she works or not! Your “reasons” have no basis in reality because they are merely assumptions. Therefore, you can’t use them as solid excuses.

                  They worked regardless if they got alimony or not and I had no problem with it. And I did pick them up when we went out near them. And if they wanted to come to me then they drove themselves.

                  But you don’t know whether she works or not1 She never answered your question. And even if she doesn’t, you still don’t know how she is supporting herself. Maybe she has investments or a trust. You don’t know. Just admit that. You don’t have the answer to that question. You can’t even admit it.

                  This confrontational style of yours is probably the way you are in person too. And thats why you’re single. Of course the extra 25 lbs you carry can also be why.

                  Ooooo. Burn. The fat comment. Thanks for proving that you’re actually a woman. As if we needed any more evidence of that.

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                • Johnny B. Says:

                  John — I’m with you on your story. Not everyone read it carefully about the 30 minutes and NOT 30 miles, which is a big difference. Thirty miles in traffic can be one hour or more…

                  By the second date, you definitely should know some things about a person and it surprises me that it wasn’t even “small” talk on the first date about whether or not she has/had a career. It’s not a major deal if one only wants to have sex with a person but I’m with you on your attitude towards it. Sex online can be had easily but not necessarily something in the realm of LTR….

                  Regarding other comments, this is just one rough crowd….

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              • Crotch Rocket Says:

                These are all assumptions that have yet to be confirmed.
                True, and if it were only one red flag, I’d suggest he investigate further. However, I’ve lost track of the number of different red flags in this story, and the sheer number says she’s probably not worth the effort.

                you wouldn’t date divorced women with preteen kids, since it’s almost a guarantee that she’s getting alimony and not working much if at all.
                Alimony depends on many factors; for instance, in my state a woman must be married at least 10 years and be proven incapable of earning at least $2500/mo to qualify for alimony. Child support is more significant, since a mother can take up to 40% of the father’s pre-tax income (and he still owes all the taxes on it, not her).

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  5. John Says:

    If you really think that not having sex with someone I barely know because I didnt bring a condom is a “stupid” reason, then nothing else I can say will make a difference.Thanks for your feedback. I knew I was asking for it when I wrote the letter but I did learn a lot about dating 2.0.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      That’s not the reason and you know it. But you go right ahead and insist that it is. Even if you had one, you would have just found another reason not to do it.

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    • Maargen Says:

      Please, please, please don’t assume you’ve learned anything about dating from this site. You’ll learn about the women you date from the women you date.

      Intimacy comes in stages. Just because a woman is comfortable with you in her home does not mean that she’s comfortable with you in her vagina. Nor does she have to be. You went out to lunch, you already ate, but the fact that you didn’t want any more food or drink doesn’t mean you have to end the conversation or wander around in the park. A relaxing conversation at home can be a way to further intimacy, but that should be possible without the pressure that either of you must now do more than you’re ready for.

      This woman invited you over because she didn’t want the date to end. You accepted for the same reason. Maybe she read on some site that men expect sex on the second date or they won’t call again and she accepted that, or maybe she wanted to have sex with you because of her level of attraction to you. Whatever her reasons for inviting you over, they won’t necessarily be the reasons of the next woman.

      The next woman who invites you over might do so because she’d rather get to know you over a conversation at home rather than over food when she’s not hungry or in a noisy bar. If you go there with the attitude that you expect sex now that she’s allowed you to sit on her sofa, you might blow things with her by coming on too strong. Also, if your expectation of sex isn’t met, you’ll ask Moxie why and Moxie will go on about how the woman is “playing games” and “red flags” and whatnot…rather than saying “I don’t know. If you want to know why she did something, ask her”

      The best way to lose weight is through diet and exercise. But developing the discipline to control impulses and maintain good habits is waaay too hard and takes too long. We want to be thin and sexy NOW. So too many of us still turn to fad diets and quick fixes. We try that one, and then the other one, then drop that for another. But what works works, and what doesn’t doesn’t, regardless of what we want. So we still get more and more obese, we still get the diabetes, hyper-tension, whatever.

      Want a good relationship? Develop empathy. Learn to listen. What’s important is recognizing patterns of behaviour, not jumping to conclusions. Patterns take time to emerge. Pay attention, take your time, and check your assumptions before making judgements. Minimize the noise and distractions. Yes that takes time. And patience. And discipline. Sure, if you prefer you can pretend that there are quick and easy “red flags” and “game” and whatever. You can jump from one then to another and then drop that for another. But you know what? You’ll get the same stellar results from reacting to “red flags” that we get from fad diets. What works works. What doesn’t doesn’t.

      Of course, the majority of people do NOT exercise discipline – in dating or in health. They’re so caught up in knee-jerk reactions that there is very little reasoned response. If you’re just getting back into dating, now is a good time to stop and think about which approach you’ll embrace. If you listen too much to people who are quick to judge despite their complete lack of actual information, you’ll pick this up like a bad habit. And habits, once developed, are hard to break.

      And how old (or desperate) is your friend that having “surefire sex” is such a big deal that you should do it without a condom just because you can??

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      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        I think it’s just fascinating that you have all this inisght. Aren’t you the one who was almost engaged twice, or was engaged twice and broke it off both times, lived with a couple men but didn’t share a bedroom. That’s you, right? Do go on about all your wisdom when it comes to healthy relationships and intimacy.

        http://atwys.baltimorewebsitedesign.net/2011/04/04/why-is-she-holding-off-on-having-sex-with-him/

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        • Eliza Says:

          Why such bitterness to this woman’s comment? geez. It’s unwarranted. Everyone is entitled to their point of view. It is a blog afterall. wow…such a harsh exterior and unecessary reaction.

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        • loveliee Says:

          You saying that to Maargen is kind of like when people say things to you like “what do you know about relationships when you’re 42 and single.” It’s kind of not nice, but then again, I guess today isn’t the day for nice?

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          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            Well, those people are usually doing what Maargen does which is to take personal shots in their comments despite the fact that nothing that was said was said to/about them personally. Sorry. People want to write their snide little comments because something I said, something that had nothing to do with them, rubbed them the wrong way, don’t bitch when it’s dished back at you.

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      • LostSailor Says:

        Just because a woman is comfortable with you in her home does not mean that she’s comfortable with you in her vagina.

        A lovely sentiment. But completely opposite of the experience of most people.

        If you go there with the attitude that you expect sex now that she’s allowed you to sit on her sofa, you might blow things with her by coming on too strong.

        You might. But most likely not. If she invites you home after a date and all you do is sit on her sofa making polite conversation, the most likely result is she’ll never want to see you again.

        A relaxing conversation at home can be a way to further intimacy, but that should be possible without the pressure that either of you must now do more than you’re ready for.

        Wonderful dating advice…if you’re dating someone from the 19th century.

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        • Maargen Says:

          LS – my point is that not all men are the same, nor all women. Of course different people behave differently, and the same person behaves differently under different circumstances. What am I saying here that you don’t already know?

          Even if there were “rules”, none of them applies to everyone. So why bother with the rules at all? What’s important is learning about the person you’re with. This takes time and patience.

          People don’t feel like putting in the time? People have no interest in developing patience and empathy? Ok, that’s understandable. Discipline is hard.

          Hard work has its rewards, though. And relying on “rules” and “red flags” in order to avoid hard work has its downfalls.

          What am I saying here that you don’t already know? Remember, my remarks were addressed to someone who said he wants a long term relationship. If the circumstances are different (only looking for pump and dumps) then, yes the “red flag” route is the right tactic for that. Different behaviors for different circumstances, right?

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          • LostSailor Says:

            Yes, yes, of course. Not All Men/Women Are Like That. There are special snowflakes and delicate blossoms out there if only you have the patience and empathy to seek them out and take the time to learn their inner-beauty.

            There are no “rules.” But there are guidelines based on personal and collective experience. They work because while NAM/WALT, enough are like that.

            I have plenty of empathy and patience, and if you keep my interest, I’m perfectly willing to wait for physical intimacy. But please note that if you’re going to keep my interest, you’re going to have to make the extra effort. If a man has the sense that the relationship is moving forward and she is making that effort, most men will be willing to wait. Unfortunately, my experience and that of others is that the majority of women don’t really make that effort to keep him interested, keeping the spark alive, while figuring out whether she wants to sleep with him. They still expect the man to do the heavy lifting while intimacy is put on hold because, well, she’s worth it damn it. She’s the special snowflake.

            You may be different, I can’t say. Maybe you are putting forth the effort and an evening of conversation sitting on the sofa in your parlor after a date will keep his lust at bay while still fanning the fires of his emotional desire. It still seems to me to be an old-fashioned idea that doesn’t work in 2012. Perhaps it works for you, but for most men following your advice, they’ll find that their determined patience and empathy will more often than not leave them alone with empty wallets.

            Hard work and determination are for the gym. Seems it takes a lot of effort to get to know the real you…

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            • Maargen Says:

              All I said was that there’s no rule that says that when a woman is comfortable inviting you over, she’s also comfortable having sex with you. The two do not necessarily go hand in hand. They represent different levels of progressive intimacy. That’s all.

              And since, as I said, not all women are alike, I don’t see how you can extrapolate what my own choices are. You think I can only understand choices I make myself? That’s my whole point: no one speaks for all of us. If, on the third date, 70% of women who ask you home are ready for sex, and 30% are not, the way to know the attitude and comfort level of the woman you are with is to pay attention to the woman you are with. Not having sex with you that night represents one instance. Not having sex with you time after time represents a pattern of behaviour. Evaluating a person on a pattern of behaviour leads to more valid conclusions than evaluating based on one instance. I’m not sure what about that idea is so controversial.

              Also, hard work and determination is for the gym? Not for a career? Not for education? Developing the right skills and habits to be good at a job, or at a sport, or at school, or at an instrument, or anything at all should take time and attention, but developing the skills for healthy positive relationships should happen simply by accident? Or shouldn’t happen at all?

              I spoke of discipline, empathy and patience – not hard work and determination (which frankly, sounds kinda stalky to me in the context of a relationship). These attributes make the relationship easy – not hard. It’s the lack of these attributes that make relationships hard. Life is a LOT harder when we don’t develop the discipline to pay our bills on time, show up for work and do a good job, do what it takes to stay healthy. Good habits make life easier.

              So why shouldn’t good relationship habits not make relationships easier?

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              • LostSailor Says:

                Also, hard work and determination is for the gym? Not for a career? Not for education? Developing the right skills and habits to be good at a job, or at a sport, or at school, or at an instrument, or anything at all should take time and attention, but developing the skills for healthy positive relationships should happen simply by accident?

                We’re talking about dating and relationships. Not education, career, sport, etc. But if you want to talk about developing good dating and relationship skills, that involves learning to deal with the current dating culture and learning what works. Maybe your approach works for you, but it’s not about you. It’s about what works most of the time for most people. If it your approach works for you, then go with God and good luck. But if you want to change the dating culture, well, good luck with that. I deal with the world as it is; I’ve learned that I’m not going to change it.

                All I said was that there’s no rule that says that when a woman is comfortable inviting you over, she’s also comfortable having sex with you.

                No, you talked about a woman inviting a man into her home after an outside date. Sorry, you may want to think that it’s an innocent invitation, but there are expectations when you do that. Whether you think those expectations are reasonable or not is irrelevant. What you’re describing is a type of courtship, which is of a bygone era. If your approach works for you, again, great. But trying to convince others to follow your preferred dating approach aint going to work for most people. If you’re not ready for sex with a man, by all means invite him over and expect courtship. Let me know how that works.

                From your comment I resonded to: People don’t feel like putting in the time? People have no interest in developing patience and empathy? Ok, that’s understandable. Discipline is hard.

                Ah. There’s the “discipline” again. You missed my point entirely. Once again: if the relationship is moving forward and you’re investing in it in a way that a man appreciates, go for it. I get it. You want emotional intimacy before physical intimacy, which is fine. You expect restraint in the men you date. But I’ve yet to hear what you offer in return for that restraint, that discipline. A lot of men take the time to “get to know” women over many dates, weeks of planning outings, paying for the pleasure of a woman’s company, only to be left high and dry. So what’s the better option? Take a chance that discipline pays off once in a while–or not–or go with the “rules” that will increase his chance of finding someone, even if for a STR or LTR?

                Again: Hard work has its rewards, though. And relying on “rules” and “red flags” in order to avoid hard work has its downfalls.

                Oh, there’s that “hard work” again. It frequently doesn’t have it’s rewards. Red flags are red flags for a reason. There are only a few special snowflakes out there. There are a lot more women–and men–who readily show that they’re not suitable if you know what to look for. You seem to be advocating looking beyond the “red flags” to invest time and effort to look beyond obvious problem to “get to know” someone in spite of the warning signs.

                Sorry, Maargen, but I, for one, will not ignore obvious signs, nor will I jump through hoops. You never addressed the salient point: if you’re delaying intimate relations until there is emotional comfort, what are you doing to keep a man interested, or is it all on him to just go along, show restraint, and trust that it will all work out?

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                • Maargen Says:

                  Sailor:

                  You never addressed the salient point: if you’re delaying intimate relations until there is emotional comfort, what are you doing to keep a man interested,

                  I completely agree that I did not address this. It seems you and I are discussing different issues here.

                  Of the many points raised by the OP, I responded to one specifically:

                  He said I thought going back to her place after lunch for a makeout session would be quite normal. Apparantly in Dating 2.0, the makeout sessions are no longer on the table and if you go to someone’s place, it means going all the way is expected. I guess I have a lot to learn.

                  To which I responded (to paraphrase): Don’t expect that because this woman invited you into her home after a date for sex that the next woman who invites you into her home after a date will be ready to have sex with you. Make out sessions are NOT off the table in Dating 2.0. When we set up expectations based on “rules”, if the expectations aren’t met that very often leads to anger and resentment towards the other person, which is not conducive to developing a long term relationship.

                  There was a time when women thought that when she is having sex with a man, that means they’re in a relationship. That is not the case. A “rule” wasn’t created that a man shouldn’t have sex with a woman if he wasn’t interested in a relationship with her. Women learned that sex is sex, a relationship is a relationship, and having one does not mean you MUST have the other.

                  Meeting for drinks is not the same as meeting for dinner. Making out isn’t the same as having sex. Having sex doesn’t mean you have to meet her friends, and meeting his friends doesn’t mean you have to meet the kids. Each represent a different level of intimacy, but each is useful in determining how much farther you want to go with the person in question.

                  Making out is not the same as sex, and doing one does not mean you MUST do the other. If the OP starts thinking that, a date could end on an ugly note based on his reaction when she let’s him know how far she’s comfortable going. How far she wants to go depends on her personal attitude about intimacy coupled with the chemistry that exists between her and him specifically, not some arbitrary “rule”. Neither men or women should feel pressured to go as far as the bedroom or the altar because it’s “expected”. (oh, btw – I know that if a woman raises a man’s expectation for sex and doesn’t deliver she’s called a “cocktease”. If a man raises a woman’s expectation for a relationship and doesn’t deliver, what’s he called again? I forget…)

                  But if you want to talk about developing good dating and relationship skills, that involves learning to deal with the current dating culture and learning what works…most of the time for most people..

                  Every year there are more and more dating sites, more and more different approaches to dating, from online dating to speed-dating to personal matchmaking. This would not indicate to me that people are less interested in being in relationships than they ever were.

                  At the same time, the percentage of people getting divorced has increased, the percentage of people getting married has decreased the percentage of never-married parents has increased, the percentage of people opting out of relationships altogether and living alone has increased. Sites such as this one reflect a very adversarial tone from members of the opposite sex towards one another.

                  In what sense do you feel that the current dating culture is working “most of the time for most people”?

                  Maybe your approach works for you, but it’s not about you.

                  My approach towards what? Assessing patterns of behaviour (how do you two get along generally?) rather than reacting to isolated instances of a specific behavior (did he pick up the check on the first date? Did she have sex with him on the third?). I certainly did not discuss anything else…whether or not I wait for emotional intimacy, getting to know me over many dates (how many is “many”, anyway?), courting…any of those things. And I won’t discuss them now. Because you’re right – it’s not about me. My whole point is that another woman might do things completely differently from me and neither of us is “right”, or should be judged for the personal choices we make for ourselves.

                  Sorry, Maargen, but I, for one, will not ignore obvious signs, nor will I jump through hoops

                  How does “assess based on a pattern of behaviour rather than on snap-judgements or reaction to red flags” turn into “ignore obvious signs or jump through hoops”?

                  As for “signs” – they might be obvious, but interpreting what they mean is based on knowledge and awareness (not to mention very often skewed by cognitive bias). For centuries, interpretation of “obvious signs” had us convinced that the sun went around the earth.

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                  • LostSailor Says:

                    Maargen, you seem to be a bit hung-up on this whole sex thing. While it may not be how you think things should be, the fact is that if a woman invites a man to her home after a date, there is definitely an expectation of making-out and/or sex. The OP John was surprised that sex was on the menu on that date, and while it’s not always the case, it often is. It’s not even necessarily a new thing. Back in the ancient days of my 20s, the expectation was pretty much the same.

                    oh, btw – I know that if a woman raises a man’s expectation for sex and doesn’t deliver she’s called a “cocktease”. If a man raises a woman’s expectation for a relationship and doesn’t deliver, what’s he called again? I forget…

                    An asshole. And if a man is doing that, he’s probably quite comfortable being an asshole.

                    Every year there are more and more dating sites, more and more different approaches to dating….At the same time, the percentage of people getting divorced has increased, the percentage of people getting married has decreased …Sites such as this one reflect a very adversarial tone from members of the opposite sex towards one another. In what sense do you feel that the current dating culture is working “most of the time for most people”

                    Dating sites, etc. are businesses designed to make money, not necessarily to facilitate relationships. Divorce, marriage, and people opting out of marriage are all in response to the feminist culture of our society, a totally different topic. Dating has become more adversarial. Recognizing reality for what it is and developing the skills to deal with it is what works most of the time for most people who actually deal with the reality and not what “should be”. The dating culture actually doesn’t work for most people because they are clueless about those realities. You can bemoan the state of dating these days all you want. I, for one, prefer to learn about what works and put it into practice–and it does require practice. Have I found a solid relationship yet? No, but lately I’ve finally been having fun looking…

                    My approach towards what?

                    Dating to find a relationship. I assume it’s working for you, since you’re sticking to it so vehemently.

                    My whole point is that another woman might do things completely differently from me and neither of us is “right”, or should be judged for the personal choices we make for ourselves.

                    I couldn’t care less about your personal choices. Do whatever you wanna do. But if you post in such detail about those choices in a forum like this, you’re actively inviting judgment. You really can’t complain when you get it.

                    Do you care to address the salient point I mentioned in my last post?

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                    • Maargen Says:

                      Maargen, you seem to be a bit hung-up on this whole sex thing.

                      What I said about the whole sex thing is this: people will do what they are comfortable doing when they are comfortable doing it based on their own criteria and the person they’re with – not by other people’s “rules”.

                      How is that hung up?

                      If the OP thinks that “now a make out session is off the table and going over to someone’s place means that going all the way is expected” that expectation in itself will affect his behaviour. AND will be wrong in many cases. Although it will be right in many other cases, since he doesn’t know which is which, best to pay attention to the person he’s with rather than some “rule”.

                      When someone breaks a “rule” and doesn’t give us what we want, that very often leads to resentment. Rather than create this kind of dynamic for himself (and the women he goes out with), I advised not to accept this as a “rule” at all. Sometimes a makeout session will be just that, there will not be sex and he shouldn’t jump to conclusions about the woman or about her interest level if that happens as an isolated incident. If it happens as a pattern of behaviour it’s a different story.

                      Snap judgements, jumping to conclusions, reacting to “red flags”…these are all very natural and common things to do. Just as it’s natural and common to overeat. I bring up sex and food because they are both functions controlled by our amygdala, which reacts quickly to stimuli. To not react, or not overeat, takes the impulse control functions of the prefrontal cortex, which develops slower and kicks into gear slower than the amygdala. This is why I talked of discipline – it’s like pushing a plate of food away because it has too many calories. Our amygdala tells us to eat quickly until we’re full, but when we realize that it takes 10 minutes for the stomach to send a signal to the brain that it’s had enough, we also realize that it’s way too easy to overeat in those ten minutes. Learning to eat slower and pay attention to what we’re doing is the healthy thing to do, but not the natural thing to do. It takes discipline. Jumping to have sex because we can and we’re horny is natural. Stopping to put on a condom every time takes discipline. Having an adverse reaction to unmet expectations (especially about something as primal as sex) is natural. Not reacting, and instead allowing a pattern to emerge – that takes discipline.

                      This is why I advised the OP to 1.avoid creating an expectation that may very often be unmet and 2. since #1 is very hard to do, and impossible to do in all cases, develop discipline, patience and empathy (also functions of the prefrontal cortex) in order to tailor his expectations to the exact person in front of him, and to not be quick to judge if his expectations are unmet. As he gets to know any woman better, his expectations will be based on her specific behaviour, not on arbitrary “rules”.

                      You never addressed the salient point: if you’re delaying intimate relations until there is emotional comfort, what are you doing to keep a man interested, or is it all on him to just go along, show restraint, and trust that it will all work out?

                      Whose salient point? I didn’t see the OP bring this up, nor did I bring it up. I say that a woman inviting a man in after a date to make out doesn’t necessarily mean she’s ready to go all the way, and you say that I’m talking about a woman inviting a man in to talk, or about “delaying intimate relations until there is emotional comfort”. I don’t know what you’re responding to, but it’s not to what I’m saying. For instance you say “While it may not be how you think things should be, if a woman invites a man to her home after a date, there is definitely an expectation of making-out and/or sex.” How many times did I write that my main point is that making out and having sex are not the same thing, and being ready for one does not mean being ready for the other?

                      If people gulp down way too much food at their desk during lunch time, and I remark that it would be healthier for them to eat slower, how am I “not accepting reality for what it is”? The reality is that the behaviour of most people is making them obese. Am I “railing against it”? Or am I making an observation?

                      Also, you first say that I shouldn’t try to change “what works for most of the people most of the time”. Then you say that “the dating culture has become more adversarial” and “doesn’t work for most people…”

                      If most people are following these “rules”, and the dating culture is becoming more adversarial, then is there any reason to believe these rules are helpful? If most people are not following these rules, how are they “rules”?

                      Despite the fact that nothing in my post discusses my personal choices, you say that you “couldn’t care less about your personal choices”. I didn’t think you did, nor do I think you, or anyone, should, which is why I didn’t discuss them.

                      Then you ask me – twice – to tell you “if you’re delaying intimate relations until there is emotional comfort, what are you doing to keep a man interested, or is it all on him to just go along, show restraint, and trust that it will all work out?”

                      Not only did I never say that I was doing that, wouldn’t answering that be discussing my personal choices? I don’t see why that would be of any interest to you or anyone else. They’re only valid for me. But if you need to know, here’s my answer: each man is different so each case is different.

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                    • LostSailor Says:

                      How is that hung up?

                      I stand corrected. It’s hung up on some supposed “rules” about sex. Good luck with changing generations of expectation in dating not to mention human nature.

                      Whose salient point? I didn’t see the OP bring this up, nor did I bring it up.

                      No, I brought it up, so the salient point is one I posed to you. But I guess if you haven’t addressed it by now, you’re not going to.

                      Despite the fact that nothing in my post discusses my personal choices, you say that you “couldn’t care less about your personal choices”.

                      Uh, you’re whole series of comments is about your personal choices, otherwise you wouldn’t be advocating for them so adamantly. And you brought up personal choices here:

                      My whole point is that another woman might do things completely differently from me and neither of us is “right”, or should be judged for the personal choices we make for ourselves.

                      The opinions of people on an Internet forum don’t really matter. But your dates are judging you.

                      How did the NJ dinner-and-theater-date guy that you wrote Moxie about a while back work out?

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              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                All I said was that there’s no rule that says that when a woman is comfortable inviting you over, she’s also comfortable having sex with you.

                No, there is no rule but most adult women know that men will expect or at least hope for sex if they do that. Just like a woman shouldn’t say to a man that she looks forward to waking up with him and then get all freaked out that the guy takes that to mean that sex will be on the menu.

                And since, as I said, not all women are alike, I don’t see how you can extrapolate what my own choices are.

                This is about a conscious choice to be blind to simple cause and effect. You knew what that man in your letter would expect if you told him you looked forward to waking up with him. You’re not stupid. You knew what sort of response a comment like that would illicit. You made that remark anyway, then you acted shocked and uneasy that he might actually read EXACTLY WHAT YOU INTENDED FOR HIM TO READ into your comment.

                It’s like the writer over at The Frisky who writes about her love of being spanked and how kinky she is in her profile who gets offended if a guy – gasp! – actually wants to have sex with her.

                What you’re basically advocating for is for a woman to have the right to be a cocktease and use the promise of sex as a way to get a man to do what she wants or to gauge his level of interest. Or to just get attention. You use the promise of sex to get everything but sex. That’s manipulative and childish.

                but developing the skills for healthy positive relationships should happen simply by accident? Or shouldn’t happen at all?

                Developing these skills comes from experience and accepting how things generally work. You use the example of paying bills and showing up on time. Okay. We show up to work at a time set by our employer because that’s what has been determined to be the optimal time to start your day. We pay our bills when companies decide we should. We don’t turn around and say, “But we should be able to show up/pay our bills whenever *we* feel is the most optimal time.” These guidelines were developed because that’s what our employers and creditors have determined works best for everyone overall. Like you said, imagine the chaos that would arise if people decided to ignore what had become the status quo. The same theory applies to dating. In theory, yes, a woman should be able to invite a man to her home without there be no expectations. Unfortunately, after years and years of dates accrued by millions of people, that was determined ot be counter-productive. Which means you have a choice. You can either get in line with everybody else and follow certain guidelines so as to avoid chaos OR you can waste everybody’s time trying to create some imaginary revolution because you don’t actually like or want to have sex or feel insecure or whatever.

                At the end of the day, none of your theories actually matter. I don’t even think YOU believe them. You KNOW what the appropriate thing to do is. You just don’t want to or are incapable of adapting because, by doing so, you would be forced to confront your own short comings and limitations.

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        • LaRubia Says:

          If I invite a man back to my place, it’s BECAUSE I’m very attracted to him, and 99.9% sure I want to have sex, period. If he hasn’t been to my place, I’ve usually just met him and don’t know enough about him yet, or I’m just not physically attracted – period.

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  6. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    “Women do this a lot. Why is it so surprising that men also change their minds about sex like this sometimes?”

    Why is it surprising? Because this is a “man bites dog” story. If it were a woman saying she turned down sex, there would be a collective yawn. I doubt a woman would even bother writing in. But, it’s not a woman. It’s a guy. So, when a man turns down sex, we may wonder why. You can debate whether this is common or not, but that doesn’t help us understand why he did what he did.

    Only “John” knows the real reason he did what he did. But, I think Moxie’s explanation is closer to the truth than the excuses John gave. Even John admitted in the comments that he was intimidated by her sexual advances. So, this appears to be a closed case.

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  7. Trouble Says:

    John,

    There will be other, saner women out there who won’t expect sex on the 2nd date. Just keep trying and stay true to yourself.

    At some point, you will laugh at these experiences.

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  8. VJ Says:

    I’m with Trouble & the OP (John) here. Too many damn hoops, and too much hassle & driving time for a chance at the offer of sex. I know that the guys are supposed to jump at the ‘offer of meat’, but sometimes that’s just not in the offing. No condom is an acceptable reason. Especially in this day & age.

    I’m also calling BS on the ‘income mystery’ here. Maybe the ‘matrimonial lawyers’ here can tell us what the current rates/expectations are for alimony in NY is, but it’s certainly not what it once was. While that likely is the simplest & most direct explanation, it’s still somewhat off putting that she refused to answer the question, but was perfectly OK with ‘doing’ you/him. Damn straight that’s a red flag. What the hell is the problem with just saying, ‘My ex is a banker and provides a substantial monthly alimony’? And ‘I’m a SHAM’? Is there any shame in that? If so why? Why be coy about this nonsense? Why the mystery?

    So some things are not adding up. Perhaps it’s in the telling, perhaps it’s in the strum und drang of ‘Dating 2.0′, who the hell knows? But if the pieces just don’t add up? No one has to be told to essentially ‘man up’ & go ahead and stick it to her. Geez that’s just silly. No woman would be expected to do the same. But the guys are expected to ‘jump right on it’ no matter the mileage, hour, cause or purpose. This way is just begging for trouble and needless drama. At 45, most dudes have had plenty of that BS too. Cheers, ‘VJ’

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    • Dan Says:

      Sometimes it’s better to walk away from an easy lay, than to go for it and get weeks or months of hassle. Especially when there are so many red flags. Especially when the woman is older and less desirable.

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    • kotoula01 Says:

      <>

      bwahahahaha! You’re kidding right? Is there any shame in admitting that???

      Of course there is!

      Most women know if they are living high on alimony/child support that they are lazy slackers and taking advantage of a court system that is biased against men. They feel guilty deep down. So that’s why they’re *reluctant* to advertise what they *do* for a living, because they don’t *do* anything except sit around and put in the minimal effort towards their kids in order to keep the courts happy and the money flowing. There are MILLIONS of HARD WORKING SINGLE MOTHERS WHO WORK FULL TIME and manage to pay their way thru life, AND TAKE FULL CARE OF THEIR KIDS, who don’t have to ride their exes into the ground with extortionary child support/alimony.

      This dumb broad has the nerve to say she ‘doesn’t discuss’ her *career* or lack thereof with someone she just met, yet she’s willing to rawdog with him?!? She is trash. And a worthless lazy slut. I feel sorry for her kids. What kind of responsible self-respecting mother would have unprotected sex with a virtual stranger?! That is outrageous! She is a selfish twit ruled by her wrinkled aging pussy.

      OP you were wise to cut and run, and you seem to have your shit together and don’t need to ask people like Moxie for *advice* lol.

      Hang on OP, don’t lose heart, date MUCH younger women (because you can) instead of washed up aging entitlement princesses, and you will eventually meet one who is willing to meet you half way, and who is willing to work hard toward common goals, and who can be a reasonable LTR prospect.

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      • Joey Giraud Says:

        Divorce, alimony, child support, been there, *am* there. I understand your feelings, but I really do put my kids first and I know that even though the ex could and should make her own way, she isn’t going to. I work so she doesn’t have to.

        Bnd I just think of my boys and how having a less-stressed mom is better for them, and that someday I’ll have my income for me and them only.

        It’s really easy to get so damn angry about it, especially when you’re showing up for work in the morning knowing she’s lounging around her house, but you pay more for your anger then she does. Gotta find a way to normalize your perspective.

        The world’s full of injustice.

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  9. LostSailor Says:

    John, you wrote in and asked Moxie to break it down for you, knowing that she would do so in her usual starkly honest terms. She did, and your response is acrimonious comments about the advice and her weight. Just what were you expecting, man?

    I don’t actually blame you for balking at two hours of driving and her somewhat insistent demands. But I do think you’re over-blowing the issue of how she makes a living. While the odds are high that she’s receiving sizable alimony, you simply don’t know; she might have inherited sizable wealth and simply doesn’t like to advertise that on a first date to screen out the male gold-diggers out there.

    But you conclude by asking Maybe I am just not ready to be intimate with someone? Or is this a case of me just being picky?. I’d have to say that it’s both, and there’s nothing wrong with either as long as you understand why.

    Beyond that, there’s not really enough information here to draw concrete conclusions. You’ve been divorced a year, and I assume were separated for some time before that. If you’re at all like me, you probably weren’t comfortable or ready to date during the separation and are gradually warming to it after your divorce finalized. Depending on how long you were married, you have to realize that Dating 2.0 is nothing like how dating went before you were married. People make judgments much more quickly and are either more quick to jump in the sack or are screening, screening, screening, and setting up hoops for you to jump through. The trick is to find someone in the middle ground and find the skills to navigate the new landscape.

    I do agree with Moxie on a few things. If a woman takes a man home on a first or second date, the frisky-time is very likely on the menu, so be prepared for it. If you’re looking for an LTR and not quick sex, then don’t go home with her. It’s a risk because it will be interpreted as “he’s not attracted to me” so you need to be affectionate and let her know that you definitely want more dates, but sex will wait. That can be like catnip if a woman in into you and see long-term potential. It just doesn’t work that often.

    And I can tell you that if you haven’t had sex yet with a partner other than your ex-wife, yes, the first time can be intimidating for a whole host of reasons. But even if you are looking for an LTR, you would be better off getting this particular hurdle out of the way.

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  10. canNook Says:

    Condomless sex on the second date is for desperate women with no self respect. While I believe plenty of men will do it, they will also view the woman who allows it as low end and not LTR material. Is that fair? NO, but that is reality. Moxie is a proponent of easy sex after a date or two, which is her prerogative. But make no mistake, it is no way to find an LTR. Guys will think, just how many other dudes have raw dogged this? This is how one gets pumped and dumped.

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    • wishing u well Says:

      Thank you for sharing that bitter little rant about…nothing. First of all why do you assume that the woman in question wanted sex sans protection? It’s clear that she had several expectations when it came to the OP, so I’d wager that she likely assumed that he already had protection with him “just in case.”

      Secondly…really? Moxie keeps her own dating life out of the blog, so these accusations are a little boring at this point. There’s been so much unwarranted and unnecessary negativity being spewed on this blog recently that I can’t even call your comment “shocking.” My recommendation? Either make a relevant point that contributes something of value to the topic at hand or just sit on the sidelines and observe, finger ready on the thumbs up / thumbs down key. Just some food for thought….I wish you well.

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      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Canook is Vox.

        “Blah! Pump and dump!”
        “Grrrr! Blowjob classes!”
        “Aaargh! My last BF shit on my rug!”
        “I come here for entertainment!”
        “You’re going to end about alone…alone…alone. ”

        Let her spin her wheels. She’s the Multiple Miggs to my Clarice Starrling. The place wouldn’t be the same without her.

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        • Dan Says:

          I’d say you’re more like a sexed up Annie Wilkes than Clarice Starling, although the olfactory reference may be apt.

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        • Jada Says:

          Her last boyfriend shit on her rug! I totally forgot about that. It’s so pathetically tragic and yet so funny. I just guffawed all over again at it. Thanks for reminding me, it totally made my morning in a mean schadenfreude-y way.

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  11. Peter Says:

    As long as the woman was caring for her children and not spending the money frivolously I wouldn’t care if she were supported by alimony. How much is paid in alimony is dependent on many factors including abuse and infidelity. I would get the full story of her divorce before making sweeping generalizations.
    The OP might have better luck with women if he stopped resenting (hating) them so much.

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    • LostSailor Says:

      Peter, alimony has virtually nothing to do with “abuse” or “infidelity.” You seem to think negotiating alimony is like paying blackmail. And there’s nothing in the OP’s letter that indicates he’s “resenting” let alone “hating” women. Methinks you have your own issues going on here…

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      • fuzzilla Says:

        >And there’s nothing in the OP’s letter that indicates he’s “resenting” let alone “hating” women. Methinks you have your own issues going on here…<

        Maybe not in his letter, but plenty in his comments.

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        • LostSailor Says:

          While John, the OP, clearly felt stung by Moxie’s advice, I still don’t see resentment or hatred of women here. Strong terms need strong evidence and I’m not seeing it…

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  12. offensive dan Says:

    All the excuses women are making for the OP’s braod. She’s receiving alimony–it’s clear as day. That’s how forty- something year old woman “make ends meet.” Plus, they see any man as more money for their account. John, next time, you should just bang women like this and then drop then, a la pump an dump. Don’t get caught up in this mess.

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  13. L Says:

    Unfortunately, I have learned this through a lot of experience. You cannot turn a woman down for sex without her taking it personally and rejecting you completely … for whatever the reason might be … even if it is legit. Should you decline an invite to go back to her place? Not sure whether that would be taken any differently.

    I agree completely with Nathan. It shouldn’t make a difference. But this is an area where many/most of today’s female population needs to evolve and they haven’t yet. To jump into sex too quickly only encourages trivialization of sex and intimacy … and encourages men not to stick around. But unfortunately in today’s overly liberated world, no one wants to see that.

    So to the OP, unfortunately, you have two choices when it comes to this situation. You suck in your gut and have sex with her no matter what, or you take a risk and give her a reason as to why not and see if by some lucky chance, she tolerates it and has enough self-worth to not take it personally and see you again. Because women are such emotional creatures and the sexual world has become SO liberated, the likelihood of this happening is slim. So you are really taking a chance. BUT … there are those who would say that if you feel a certain way and truly believe in your heart that you are doing the right thing, then go with your gut and if she doesn’t understand, it’s her loss.

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  14. Diana Says:

    Honestly, I have to side with John on this one. I am 42 and could write a book on dating at this point. But my opinion was that this woman was being a bit unreasonable to ask him to do the driving — four trips, 30 minutes each way. And I image she also expected him to pay for dinner as well. I could understand if she didn’t drive or had a broken leg or something that prevented her from driving. I’m sure that John wouldn’t have minded that in the least if that were the case. But it wasn’t. She was asking him to do far too much for a third date. As far as how she earns her income, well, why would you want to have sex with someone when you don’t even know what they do? Sure, it might not be any of his business, but why should he jump in there when she’s being furtive about something that is usually a non-issue — like what do you do for a living? Even a stay-at-home mom answer would probably have sufficed in this case and what her source of income was could be discussed once the relationship progressed, if it did. So, John, if I were you, I would keep looking. There are plenty of women who have self-respect but don’t make unreasonable demands.

    And as far as the weight issue…us woman are a sensitive lot. I struggle with it. Have most of my adult life but I recently got back down to a size 8 where I’m comfortable. I teach exercise classes part time, which helps. But I can tell you that it’s not easy..especially for us women. Taking potshots at Moxie’s weight is naughty. I know you think she can be harsh, but that’s just her style. I don’t agree at times with what she says, but that’s just the way she is. I am the same way. Take what you want and discard the rest. Every situation is different, and only you know what’s truly in your heart. Follow it; and when you meet that special someone, I can guarantee you’d be willing to drive whatever distance for her.

    Ta….

    Diana

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  15. Mandy Says:

    The OP knows what the woman does. He says it in the post! “She doesn’t work since she is home all day and doing errands, taking kids places, etc.” That’s clearly a stay-at-home mom. People seem to be confusing this with the question of where her income comes from. Those are two entirely different things. Someone who won’t tell you what they do is sketchy. But how many of us volunteer where all of our income comes from on the second date?! That’s irrelevant until you’re ready to combine finances. And while it’s not a decision I would make for myself, there’s nothing at all wrong with being a stay-at-home mom…just because maybe she COULD get daycare and a job doesn’t mean she should.

    If the issue with dating a stay-at-home mom is that her values are different from yours then fine, but why would you bother going out with her if that’s the case? If you date a woman who’s a teacher, but makes a lot of other income off of investments, alimony, and/or inheritance, is that better? Just because you can assume/pretend her money comes from her job?

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  16. offensivedan Says:

    Yeah, most men would have issue with some broad receiving alimony and expecting you to contribute by buying dinner. I went out with this chick who had no job yet could afford to go out and stuff. She even made a crack on our date about testing men by bringing her kids to dinner, too. She contacted me a few days later asking why I had not responded to her email. I basically told her she was a golddigger and her joke about bringing kids to dinner was wrong. She claimed it was a joke. Whatever, next.

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  17. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    The whole alimony point is moot, as it is NOT the reason John “lost interest.” This is the same guy who submitted a letter two weeks ago who wanted to take the woman to Houlihan’s and she upgraded to a wine bar. She emailed him the day after and said she didn’t think there was chemistry. He got bent because he had to pay for her two whole glasses of wine and felt she should have switched to water since she wasn’t interested. How disgruntled do you have to be to even think that?

    The problem isn’t just that he’s dating entitled women who, in their own way, are tragically stunted when it comes to dating experience and skills. It’s that HE doesn’t know what he’s doing. So he’s going to come up with a bunch of nonsense excuses to justify why he doesn’t follow through instea dof sacking up and seeing things through. He hasn’t a clue how she supports herself. Sure, it’s probably alimony. Derp. She’s divorced with kids and stays at home. How the fuck do you think she supports herself? Don’t sit there and act all shocked at her evasiveness. You KNOW how she supports herself. So why did you go out with her? Oh, so you can have an excuse for when this situation imploded, too?

    I went out with this chick who had no job yet could afford to go out and stuff. She even made a crack on our date about testing men by bringing her kids to dinner, too.

    Tell me something, Dan. Do you ever NOT date assholes? No,m seriously…..at what point are we allowed to tell you that you get exactly what you deserve time and time again? You learn NOTHING. You, like the women with similar obnoxious rants and whines, go after the charming, attractive, way far out of your league people over and over again, then get used and abused, and then you take to the internet and bitch about it. Here’s a thought – date better people!!!!!!!! Why is this so god damn difficult????

    You’re all sooooooo knowledgeable about womenz and offering high fives to each other for “pumping and dumping” imaginary women , yet none of you sound remotely pleasant, positive or happy. Good Christ.

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    • offensivedan Says:

      Cuz, I can grope them.

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    • John Says:

      Moxie,
      You clearly explained to me I didnt know what I was doing by suggesting Houlihan’s in that article a few weeks ago. I learned from that mistake and thanked you for it in my comments in that article. I did use Yelp per your suggestion (since I was still new to the area at that point). And I have found some really cool places and some of my first dates have remarked how “different” they were and loved the originality.

      So for that I thank you. But after your initial commentary, I was referred to you as a “simpleton” a “rube” and “clueless” in subsequent comments section. So I got your initial point and learned from it and thanked you. But you had to keep pushing the insults. And it was the same thing here. After your initial commentary, I clarified a few misinterpretations you made (such as the 30 mile distance vs 120 mile distance) and you went looking for a fight.

      People write in and ask for advice. To make the gym analagy once again its like a trainer explaining to you how you should take it to the next level. He gives his advice and you decide to take it or leave it. But then if he goes on a rant that the stuff you are doing is oh so 90s and no wonder you are still a size 10 because you just dont work hard enough…thats the equivalent of what you are doing. And then to make matters worse, he says that you dont get it because you have Fitness 1.0 mentality instead of Fitness 2.0 mentality.

      Believe it or not, you will get web traffic by being accurate instead of being confrontational. That nerdy chick is blowing you away with her web traffic according to Alexa.com and she is proving it can be done in a constructive way without confrontation. And here is someone who destroys you in the looks department and touts using condoms. I guess she isnt dating in 2.0 or she must be lying too?

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      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        But after your initial commentary, I was referred to you as a “simpleton” a “rube” and “clueless”

        You *were* clueless. You admitted it. And I said that *your date* likely thought you were a rube because of your initial choice. The word simpleton got used to describe people who make such choices like taking a date to a chain restaurant (depending on where they lived.) The conversation in that thread spun off onto a broader discussion. It wasn’t all directed at you. But even if it was, you were a regular reader, John. You knew how people on this blog thought. You knew the tone and style.You wanted me to agree with you, and I did to some degree. But you were at fault, too. At least in the way you processed how that date went down.

        But you had to keep pushing the insults. And it was the same thing here.

        No. Nobody “pushed the insults” in the previous thread, John. That discussion became broader and stopped being about you at one point. If you found what was being said insulting, that’s on you. As for this thread, I stand by every single word I said. With the exception of galling you a “girl.” That was petty and bitchy and I apologize. But my feelings on why you handled the situation the way you did? That I stand by. You can not like it. That’s fine. But just because something gets said that you don’t like doesn’t mean it’s mean, wrong or insulting. Again, you know how this blog works.You expected me to agree with you and validate your decision. Well, I didn’t. I didn’t give her a free pass, either. Your decision to bail on this woman had little to do with driving 120 miles or condoms or sex or alimony. It had to do with your own insecurities, resentments and biases.

        He gives his advice and you decide to take it or leave it. But then if he goes on a rant that the stuff you are doing is oh so 90s and no wonder you are still a size 10 because you just dont work hard enough…thats the equivalent of what you are doing.

        But you didn’t take it or leave it. You continued to dispute what people/I said if they disagreed with you. You hopped on whatever bandwagon appeared to get the most support for your decision. Condoms, alimony, etc. And the must maddening part was that you had no real evidence to support the very thing that you claimed was your reason for walking away – alimony. That’s a flimsy defense. You knew going into the date she probably was supporting herself with alimony. Then you used that very reason to judge her and walk away. That’s inconsistent, John. Do you not see that? It’s like that post from awhile back about the blogger who was bothered that her unemployed date couldn’t pay his rent but paid for all their expensive dates, but then wrote a previous post about the guy she chose to go out with whom she knew was a “starving artist” made her pay the $20 check. Which is it? Is she offended by, in her words, a financially irresponsible guy or isn’t she? Answer? She’s not. She was looking for reasons to criticize the men because she doesn’t have the skills or maturity necessary to make better choices. That’s it. And that’s all you were doing.

        I don’t write these posts just for the benefit of the letter writer. I write these posts and comments for the benefit of everybody who reads.

        Believe it or not, you will get web traffic by being accurate instead of being confrontational. That nerdy chick is blowing you away with her web traffic according to Alexa.com and she is proving it can be done in a constructive way without confrontation.

        I don’t know who you’re referring to, and I don’t care. I don’t care about traffic, web stats, followers, friends, retweets etc. I don’t pay attention to any of that stuff. I don’t beg to write guest posts for blogs or aggressively seek out press or media attention. I don’t even promote my own press mentions. I don’t sit on Twitter and title-whore myself so I can be voted most popular blogger. I don’t use my relationships to gain credibility. I could write for all kinds of websites. I choose not to. I don’t write any of this to win friends or be popular or famous. For me, it’s all about the discussion. That’s it. I’d rather have modest traffic and an insightful discussion than the other way around. 25 comments or 250 comments. Don’t care. It’s about the take away value. There are plenty of websites that dole out trite advice so that they can please their readership and get them praise and attention. Go read one of them.

        And here is someone who destroys you in the looks department and touts using condoms. I guess she isnt dating in 2.0 or she must be lying too?

        What’s your point? Oh, you just wanted to make some catty remark. Okay. There you go again being inconsistent. Who gives a shit about who’s better looking? Why would I care what some random stranger, especially one with a grudge, thinks of my looks? You can’t in one breath say how wrong it is for me to be insulting and then act like a catty bitch. It makes you a hypocrite.

        I will take fat, ugly, old any day over disingenuous.

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        • John Says:

          “But you didn’t take it or leave it. You continued to dispute what people/I said ”

          I didn’t take it because your advice was based upon your assumption that the drive was 30 miles not 120. That piece of info is a material difference. So heck yes, I thought the advice would be different once you realized it and wanted to hear what you had to say based upon that new realization.

          As for a woman living solely on alimony, that is a dealbreaker for me. And its not because I was burned by that. I wasnt married long enough and didnt have kids so that wasnt even close to being an issue. But thats my right to be stil lbe turned off by it. I wasnt writing in asking about that. It was more about the driving thing. Saying I had no condom was just the background part of the story in preparation ofr potential date #3. If it came across that way then I apologize and I guess I have to take my ,umps for not being more clear what my question was.. I know you said that alimony talk is fair game in this thread. I still wish you would have a spearate topic on it though. .

          And as for the Houihans thing, this is what you said in your comments after the initial response:
          “The mind set of someone who chooses to live in a city like Manhattan is vastly different than someone who chooses to live in Long Island, Queens, Staten Island etc. We’ve discussed this before when we talk about people who are geographically undesirable.
          To put it bluntly, most people who live in a large metropolitan city don’t wish to date simpletons.If we enjoyed being around simpletons, we wouldn’t live in Manhattan. And only a simpleton would think that a chain restaurant is an ideal place to take someone on a date”

          I never said in my initial email that I lived in Manhattan. You just assumed I did. I have no idea why. I live on Long Island. So based upon your comment, it seemed like there was a good chance you thought I lived in Manhattan. I wrote back to clarify I didnt. And so I thought your advice might be different based upon that.

          In this article you got the distance wrong by a large factor. In the Houilhan’s article you got my geographic location wrong. So I dont think that trying to clarify those points should be taken as me not wanting to take your advice. It is wanting to hear your advice based upon you getting the facts correct. In both of these cases, you got a major piece of the facts wrong and I was replying to fix that .

          Anyway, I apologize for comparing looks. That was wrong. I must say that I do admire the fact I wasn’t moderated. I will call a truce.

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          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            I didn’t take it because your advice was based upon your assumption that the drive was 30 miles not 120. That piece of info is a material difference.

            No, my advice wasn’t based on that trivial bit of information. My advice was based on your last letter and this one and the things you complained about in each. The driving distance wasn’t the real problem for you in this scenario. Nor was the alimony or the condom.

            And as for the Houihans thing, this is what you said in your comments after the initial response:

            Do point out where I said your name or made any specific remarks directed at you in that comment. Do it.

            I never said in my initial email that I lived in Manhattan. You just assumed I did. I

            NO I DIDN’T. I knew you lived outside of Manhattan because you said your state was NY instead of NYC and because you mentioned driving or walking her to her car. Few people drive here.

            Again, you’re trying to form some sort of defense based on inaccurate beliefs you have manufactured. You can not be wrong. You can not admit that you don’t even know what this woman’s story really is and that you jumped to conclusions and crafted a defense of why you handled things the way you did because you can’t just admit you don’t know what you’re doing.

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  18. Crotch Rocket Says:

    If you date a woman who’s a teacher, but makes a lot of other income off of investments, alimony, and/or inheritance, is that better? Just because you can assume/pretend her money comes from her job?
    If those investments were purchased with the products of her own labor, I will applaud her. OTOH, if she needs assets or income from her ex, her family or the government to get by, then she is not supporting herself; she is relying on others to support her. And, no, I wouldn’t date a woman who hadn’t proven capable of supporting herself. In my experience such people have values that are inherently incompatible with those of us who do, so it’s a waste of time.

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  19. Diana Says:

    Dating after 40 should be an Olympic sport. It sure feels like one. Maybe we should all stop trying to analyze every little thing and just be honest about what we really want. If John doesn’t want to date a woman with no apparent employment, so what? That’s his choice. If a woman wants to find someone to support her and there’s a man who is willing to do it, why not? Who are we to say that their stance is wrong?

    Also, if you’re asking for an opinion and you don’t like the responses you receive, then don’t ask.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 1

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  20. Horace Says:

    I call bullshit any time a man says something like “I thought it was too soon for sex.”

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  21. Maargen Says:

    Uh, you’re whole series of comments is about your personal choices, otherwise you wouldn’t be advocating for them so adamantly.

    Sailor – think:

    Is every person advocating for gay rights gay?

    If I spoke about understanding the difficulties of single mothers rather than judging them, would that necessarily mean that I was a single mother?

    When you read articles from economists vehemently warning about the effects of poverty and the growing level of income inequality in this country (assuming that you read articles about stuff like that, of course. I do understand that my assumption might be completely wrong), do you suppose the writer is poor?

    Whatever happened to: “I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”?

    Probably most people only understand or care about their own point of view. Maybe that’s the way you are yourself – I don’t know you so I won’t judge. But to assume that everyone is like that is simply wrong. And when we look at the political climate in this country, we can see what this sort of myopic egocentrism leads to.

    Being able to focus on specific arguments raised and not bothering to attack the person raising them is a skill. Some people have learned it, others haven’t, we all slip up regardless and the point is to realize the benefits of eliminating ad hominem reactions from our responses to each other. Eventually, with practice, we get better and better at it. It isn’t easy, but it is worthwhile.

    If you disagree with what I wrote, fine – I consider thoughtful disagreement based on knowledge helpful and desirable: otherwise I end up in an echo chamber where bogus opinions based on no knowledge whatsoever are bounced back to me by other people as ignorant as myself. That’s the sort of thing that would make me oh so sure that my opinion is correct, simply because it’s commonly held. I’d end up with my ignorance more deepley entrenched, rather than having my knowledge expanded.

    If your disagreement is with mistaken assumptions about stuff I never touched on at all, I don’t personally see the value in that.

    You keep asking me about my personal choices. I had no problem at all talking about my personal choices in posts that were about me. This one isn’t.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Lost Sailor,

      Please stop responding to her. She’s intentionally being obtuse in order to get attention. Lost cause in every conceivable way. Please stop indulging her.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 1 Thumb down 12

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      • nathan Says:

        No, she’s speaking about respectful debate and discussion, something that is next to non-existent on this blog these days.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

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        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          No, she’s not. She’s derailing a thread to ramble incoherently and avoid direct questions asked of her because she wants attention. Maybe someday, when your big important blog posts actually get more than 3 comments (one of which are usually yours) , you’ll see that. Maybe stop sucking off the bigger fish and write your own blog. You comment here regularly and you still can’t manage to generate much of a discussion on your whiny little posts.

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          • nathan Says:

            You are the one who routinely brings up my blog, and how much you loathe my writing. If anything, that’s just giving me free advertising to all those who come here and disagree with your views. If I was really out to drive up my traffic, I’d find places where my views actually had some affinity with the general readership.

            But hey, it’s so much easier to fit me into your world of shady people – which seems to be most people, judging by the way you talk about folks around here.

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        • LostSailor Says:

          Yeah, Nathan, not so much.

          Having cut my digital teeth arguing liberal politics in conservative newsgroups in the pre-Web days of the Internet, I recognize the straw-man phenomenon quite well. We’ve all been guilty of it at sometime or another, though I think I’ve largely weened myself of the odious habit. She keep on about the “rules” and how harmful they are, long after I tried to acknowledge that there really are no “rules” only guidelines, follow ‘em or not as you please. It’s not debate or discussion when one keeps reiterating the same straw-man argument numerous times and at ever growing length. It’s a bludgeon used by someone who can’t accept that they’ve presented their arguments and had them rejected. The arguments are then restated, because they can’t possibly be “wrong” or disbelieved or disputed!!

          Frankly, she lost me at amygdala. If you’re dating with your amygdala, you’re doin’ it wrong…

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