Mean Girl

August 15th, 2012

Dating, Self-Indulgent Me Posts

she purposely seeks out people who have not sought advice and tears them down. She’s a bad person.

 

Maybe you haven’t figured out how the internet works. If someone puts a story out on the internet, they’re asking for feedback. Of course, they’re usually asking for feedback that validates whatever opinion they have at that moment. That’s why they’re so shell shocked when anybody disagrees with them. The above quote was written by a blogger who pretty much made a career out of shitting on everybody she dated until one guy came along and humiliated her. She thought it would be oh so charming to give out his real name on Twitter. Oh no. Wait. She just gave clues. Totally innocently, y’all! And she loves to tweet out the profiles of men that email her on OKCupid and trash them. Funny, right??? I’m not even sure what set her off. Apparently, though she hates what I say and thinks I should “die in a fire” (so clever!!) , she read yesterday’s post about SDD’s situation and suffered flashbacks to her own similar drama. Or she just hates the fact that I was 100% accurate in my advice to her and that the guy she was “dating” was just an attention whoring asshat getting off on watching her have a public meltdown.

I don’t expect the people who submit letters or whose blog posts I deconstruct/leave comments on to see the true intention of why I do this. The knee jerk reaction is to assume I’m just trying to be mean or that I’m jealous or bitter. People need to understand something. If you put something on your blog or in a letter or in a comment that, to objective observers, makes no sense then I’m not the one making you look bad. You choose to share these stories.

If I see something that I can deconstruct that will, like, help people, I will. It’s not about tearing someone down.  That’s just self-important, melodramatic, self-victimizing crap. As I said in a tweet today, if I wrote what I wrote just to be mean I’d title every post, “How Stupid Are You?”  Certain people find what I say “mean” because they’re used to being told exactly what they want to hear, they have a guilty conscience or because they’re clinging to a narrative in their head. Anything that veers from that is seen as hurtful or mean-spirited. But, what’s so funny is that those same people think it’s HILARIOUS to write scathing Yelp reviews about bars (and then tweet out said scathing review so everybody can tell them how bitchy/funny they are) and blog posts about guys that they date making fun of their speech impediments and anxiety disorders. (Stay classy, you loudmouth.)  That’s not mean. That’s…I don’t know. Hypocritical? Juvenile? Help me out here, Henry. But turn that critical eye on them and they have a meltdown. You want to be a loudmouth? Fine by me. Just own it.

If I break a story down and say, “Here. Here’s something you should look for or watch out for” I don’t understand how that can be perceived as “mean.”Sure, maybe to those people who are stuck in that place won’t see it. Hopefully they will eventually. But my guess is many of them won’t. Those people are lost causes. I’m not writing for them. I’m writing for the people who actually want to enjoy and be successful at dating. Those people? They take away something from posts. The others? They sit on twitter and gripe about their dates or how mean I am or whatever. I have no content or service or product. I’m just mean to be mean because, like, I’m old and bitter.

I could write posts about fun date spots or bad dates or how to tell if he’s digging you. That sounds fun, right? Then everybody would Retweet it and be all, “Girl….you KNOW you’re guilty of #5.” Do people learn anything from pieces like that? I don’t think so. But man, I bet that would get page views and guffaws and “You go girls!”

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I don’t do this to be popular. Look, I can be snarky and twatty at times. I don’t deny that. But how about some of you admit the same and stop acting so above it?

 

 

 

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41 Responses to “Mean Girl”

  1. sharon Says:

    When women share stories like the one from that post they tear themselves down.

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  2. offensivedan Says:

    Moxie your style comes off as bitch-like. I’m not saying you are a bitch, as I have never met you. It does not bother me, but I can see how it would others. I remember how you chased off Paula. Plus, at times, you have issue with dissent.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      There are some bloggers that boot people after one comment. I tolerated Paula for about 3 years, Dan. I put up with far more “dissent” than the average blogger. The mere fact that I haven’t blocked you should tell you how much rope I give people.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 31 Thumb down 3

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    • Jada Says:

      Chased off Paula? Wow, I wish that is how it happened. Paula was so fucking clueless to social cues and pig headed and stubborn that she refused to modify her commenting in any way even when scores of people asked her to stop. I begged for Paula to be banned for years because she completely clogged every thread and made it about her, and it was nearly impossible to get a word in edgewise. She seemed compelled to respond to every post and every comment made by someone else. I don’t know what precipitated the final banning, but it was a long time coming and way overdue. Good riddance.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1

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      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        There’s only 2 things that will get someone banned:

        1. Continuous thread hijacking/attention whoring
        2. Self-promotion

        Dating coaches and various services comment here all the time and I ban them. They comment to promote their business. The people who write intentionally twatty things with the intention of getting a reaction from me or anybody also get booted. Especially if they display some creepy commenting compulsion like Vox, Saj and Paula did. No matter how many people asked them to stop, no matter how clear I made it that I didn’t want them here, they HAD to comment. Those are the only 3 people blocked on here. I don’t even moderate 9then approve) anybody else. But as for people who critique my looks or what I say or just disagree, whatever, that’s fine.

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      • Selena Says:

        Paula ALWAYS had to have the last word. She would argue a minor point to death to keep a ‘debate’ going. Kinda weird to watch. Moreso when you were the person she was trying to debate.

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  3. Speed Says:

    There’s a Korean proverb that states “good medicine tastes bitter.” I don’t always agree with Moxie or many of the commenters here. But a harsh tone, like the aforementioned bitter medicine can often be effective, punching through where sweet words can’t.

    Besides, too many blogs are focused on esteem-building, mutual back-slapping, or ranting—with no real diversity of opinion. Here, apart from Moxie we’ve got everyone from Trouble to Saj to DMN to Offensive Dan to Nathan. Where else on the entire Web can you find that? Moxie’s the “Anti-Oprah Winfrey” and I’m totally down with that.

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  4. Snowflake Says:

    Moxie gave me the low down on the who for the comment that began this post. Seriously, the person has absolutely nothing to back their words. It reeked of juvenile, playground rehtoric rather than the words of a grown up 30 something. Plus the person adds this stellar line ” She’s mean to women who hope for a happy ending because she’s bitter and old.” Happy ending? Reality/life is not a FAIRY TALE…. the REAL world comes with real problems, bumbs hurdles you name it, prince charming – dont exist cuz honey you aint sleeping beauty/cinderella/snow white” Brainwashed much? Stuck in high school much?

    When Moxie stirs this much discussion from the masses especially when people have to stoop to classy lines like above, its because she hit a nerve, a painful nerve close to home. some people cannot swallow the red pill. The realisation of being a screw up scares the heebie jeebies outta some. In their minds they can do no wrong, its the rest of us that are screwy and wrong etc

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      And in both cases, neither of their situations had a happy ending. Unless you consider dating a guy for 6 weeks who told you upfront he didn’t want a relationship with you, getting dumped, then spending a year writhing in pain over him on the internet a “happy ending.”

      I gave her advice because she wrote daily blog posts about the guy who, to anyone with a functioning frontal lobe, was clearly using her for attention. I saw where that was headed, as did several other people who tried to warn her, and tried to prevent her from making a fool of herself. Of course, she didn’t listen and the guy – who was a total attention whore – made a fool of her.

      As for the “old” comment I’ll just say this.I’m 43. Men my age aren’t supposed to want to date me. When you’re in your late twenties and have to date a guy 5 years younger than you just to get a boyfriend, you should really focus on your own issues.

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      • LostSailor Says:

        Unless you consider dating a guy for 6 weeks who told you upfront he didn’t want a relationship with you, getting dumped, then spending a year writhing in pain over him on the internet a “happy ending.”

        That was the most amusing part to read. It wasn’t that the guy was an attention whore, I doubt he could have cared less about the attention. She experienced the natural alpha dude: incredibly charming, successful in risky business, extremely fit and handsome, confident, and self-assured. Just the way he set up the dates is classic: he didn’t tell her where they were going, just when he would pick her up and generally what kind of dress the occasion called for. And she seems to have eaten it up. A BDSM club after dinner on a second date just to “check it out”? Wow. And even after she apparently got scared off after 6 weeks of him and bailed when, and I’m assuming here, she went to up the relationship level and he balked, she was still casually sleeping with him within some weeks of the breakup. And she was still talking on her blog about him over a year later.

        It’s text-book, very high-level Game. She didn’t get played, she played herself. There’s a Game maxim that is perfectly illustrated by this episode: 10 minutes of alpha beats 10 years of beta. It’s the one tryst that she will always remember with longing…

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        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          I’ve seen his picture.(Remember, she outed him on Twitter. It was easy to find him on Facebook.) He was out of her league. There. I said it. In the two months they were dating, he never introduced her to his friends. In fact, the only time he had her spend the night was when his roommates were out of town. Then there’s his laughable excuse of how he was texting someone that he thought was her all weekend because he programmed her number into his phone incorrectly. Jesus. Like I said. I should title some of these posts “How Stupid Are You?” Their dates were planned with the intention of watching her brag on her blog.

          And he was totally an attention whore. Trust me on this. This is the guy who “accidentally” showed up at a bar with a date where she said she was going to be on Twitter months after she “broke up with him.” That guy LOVED the attention. And of course she couldn’t shut up about it for about 72 hours after the fact.

          And even after she apparently got scared off after 6 weeks of him and bailed when, and I’m assuming here, she went to up the relationship level

          That’s exactly how it played out. And when he didn’t give her the answer she wanted, she did the pre-emptive “break up” email and then flipped out when he responded with something like 3 words.

          She got pissed because I was warning her not to fall for his BS. I never “had it out” for her. She took a couple swipes at me on her blog, then she asked me to email her to basically plead his case, and I gave her some pretty wise advice that she of course ignored. And scene.

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          • LostSailor Says:

            I’m only going on the main posts she wrote. I didn’t see any other comments (I assume you have to “join” the site to see them or she removed them) or anything of what she posted on Twitter, so I defer to you’re greater knowledge. But it’s specifically because he was out her league that she’ll probably pine for him at some level until the day she dies.

            I agree the outcome was pretty clear from the beginning, which is why I found the whole thing so amusing.

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            • Chloe Says:

              Now that I’ve pieced the clues together…. :)

              I started reading your blog because of the comments you left on hers when she was blogging about dating this guy. Your comments were reasonable, not mean. She was the one who bitched at people who were just trying to warn her not to trust him. She was cruel in how she made fun of some guys.

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            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              I agree the outcome was pretty clear from the beginning, which is why I found the whole thing so amusing.

              The problem was that she had a bunch of girls who were just like her all cheering her on. She was living their dreams. The girls who were all awkward in HS who finally got to date the captain of the football team.

              And when it ended , she did everything but chain a guy to her side so she could announce she has a boyfriend. There was one guy she dated a month or so and she posted a conversation of how “they” decided to be exclusive. She pretty much bullied him into agreeing to let her call him her boyfriend. And then she RAN to Twitter to announce she now had a boyfriend. That’s all she wants. She wants to be able to say she has a boyfriend.

              This is why I tell women that the whole “what should I call you?” conversation is really just a sly way to get a guy to agree to be called a woman’s boyfriend. Women like that don’t want relationships. They want boyfriends. They want someone to talk about and trot out when they’re with their single friends so they can feel better about themselves. And this girl is a text book example of that.

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              • LostSailor Says:

                the whole “what should I call you?” conversation

                “you may call me The Overlord…”

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  5. Snowflake Says:

    How is it rational behaviour to be pining over someone for a year after ONLY dating them for 6 weeks? That makes no sense. I was with my ex for FIVE years, it took me 9 months to get over him, but I never publically displayed my pain, I went the constructive route of hitting the gym and seeing a therapist to figure out my issues, and what of my actions led me to where I was at that point.

    In my opinion, anyone who only dates younger people are chalk full of issues they are avoiding plus people their age are well aware of those same issues.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Well, I think everybody processes stuff like that differetnly. I’m not knocking how long it took her to get past it. I’m knocking the fact that she rolled around on Twitter and her blog making a spectacle of herself about it for almost a year. Keep that shit to yourself.

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  6. LostSailor Says:

    Truth, like revenge, is best served cold. And as the saying goes, some people just can’t handle the truth, and therefore see only the cold, and call it mean. But those tweets? “Die in a fire”? “…a horrible human being who is mean to girls who hold out hope for a happy ending because she’s bitter. And OLD”? “..she has no product, service or content that anyone wants. She has no niche.”?

    Methinks the lady doth protest too much. I suspect a chord too close to home as verily been struck.

    I took a traipse through her site, where she’s no longer apparently active. It’s sometimes referred to as a “dating” site, but, of course, it nothing of the kind. It’s “look at me!” blog about her dating exploits, which, as Moxie pointed out, largely consists of tearing down the guys she dates and mocking their faults and sometimes disabilities. And she seems to have dated a lot. That’s a lot of free meals and drinks.

    So, what’s her “product, service, or niche”? She writes a snarky blog about her dating adventures that celebrates her awesomeness and the hyper-analyzed failings of her suitors. She mostly dates men who contact her through her blog, so they know the type of person they’re getting, and when they fade on her, she bemoans that they treat her as disposable. (Pot, kettle; kettle, pot).

    She trumpets her “self-awareness” but I fear confuses it with her self-absorption: She actively stalks all her dates and prospective dates on Facebook, and constantly runs fantasy scenarios in her head, “imagining” things about these guys and what it all means to her. Most of her dating failures stem from those spinning fantasies running smack into cold reality. Most of those guys never had a chance. She also can’t handle her liquor and frequently drunk-texts late at night, which apparently lead to several guys bailing.

    A weird mixture of over-controlling and entitlement meant to Spackle over her insecurities. No wonder she confuses truth for “being mean.” Indeed girls like this who “hold out for happy endings” will usually end up with guys who are quite used to “happy endings”…

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  7. Selena Says:

    Interesting choice of avatar Sailor :)

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  8. Jesse Says:

    Moxie:

    First, you are not old. Women in their early 40s are at the perfect age — still lovely to look at, still healthy as ever, and now wise and charming in a way a 20 or 30 year old can’t begin to understand or emulate.

    Second, you aren’t mean. You are direct. The truth comes from you unvarnished. I wish I had a confidant as honest as you. Because anyone who asks another for advise deserves not to have smoke blown up their skirt. Wanting anything less is pathetic if you think about it.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      you are not old.
      “Young” or “old” is a matter of perpsective. To someone who’s 120, a 40yo person is still a child. To someone who’s 12, they’re a dinosaur. So, the terms are fairly useless without an implied frame of reference.

      Women in their early 40s are at the perfect age — still lovely to look at, still healthy as ever,
      That is, if they’ve taken decent care of themselves, which most Americans (of both sexes) do not.

      and now wise and charming in a way a 20 or 30 year old can’t begin to understand or emulate.
      Seriously? Most of the letters I read here, I expect the age at the end to be in the teens or maybe early 20s–and the worst ones always turn out to be in their 40s.

      Age is just a number, not a reliable indicator of someone’s looks, health, wisdom, charm or other similar characteristics. Now, I agree Moxie happens to be better off than most single women (and nearly all of the blogger subset, from what I’ve seen) in the areas you’ve listed, but IMHO that’s not due to her age.

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      • Jesse Says:

        Actually, I believe you have it backwards. To a 6 year old someone 40 seems old. But a 40 year old woman is at the peak of her ripeness. Yes, there is an age that undeniably a person can be objectively categorized as old, but early 40s is definately not it. At 40, women are at the perfect convergence of elegance, beauty, money, position, wisdom, health and sex appeal. No frame of reference required.

        I find that women in their early 40s are much more comfortable in their own skins than those younger. They have the breadth of experience that only comes with age– they are more at ease, less neurotic, more comfortable with themselves. In short, they are “hot to trot”

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          I believe you have it backwards.
          You believe incorrectly.

          At 40, women are at the perfect convergence of elegance, beauty, money, position, wisdom, health and sex appeal.
          Some are, some aren’t. There are plenty of clumsy, ugly, poor, downtrodden, ignorant/clueless, unhealthy, and unsexy people who happen to be 40. And who happen to be 30 or 50. Age is not some magic determinant that makes people wonderful. It’s just a measure of how long ago you were born. What you’ve done (or not done) with that time is what determines your value as a person.

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          • Jesse Says:

            Well, then we disagree. Your comments, though,like those of someone who knows the price of everything but yet the value of nothing.

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          • LostSailor Says:

            At 40, women are at the perfect convergence of elegance, beauty, money, position, wisdom, health and sex appeal. No frame of reference required.

            Gotta agree with CR. Platitudes are not truth and this generalization is patently false. While it may be true for some women at 40, it is demonstrably not true for all or, for that matter, even most. Overvaluing 40-year-old women–especially a single woman looking for a relationship–is cruelty. Facing reality and changing what can be changed for the better is far better advice than just “you’re just FAB the way you are, grrrl” boosterism.

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  9. Gorb Says:

    The worst thing is this: Any other man she ever meets wil lbe compared to this guy..

    He’s blown up out of all propoertion in her mind. He may be handsome (we all get old, gain weight, whatever), clever (many people are clever), fun and Alpha (he LEADS – she follows; oooh, very exciting), …

    But the things that make for a good partner are not the stuff she’s worshipping here.

    All guys tap below their weight class sometimes. it’s what you do. If you can do it while dating several women, why not? No loss. If she’s not ugly, she doesn’t need to be as attractive as his other dates.

    This is a singularly brilliant example of the Alpha Male train-wrecking the doe-eyed, absolutely gullible female.

    She was outclassed in every possible way.

    Shooting the mesenger for saying this is just childish and narcissistic; more evidence as to why she fell.

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  10. The Private Man Says:

    Two words: “Alpha widow”

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  11. Non-Stroker Says:

    Ugh. I followed this drama last year and got swept in again because it is both so entertaining and absolutely ridiculous at the same time. I’m going to break it down for all of you, simple-style. This “blogger” is nothing but a stroker. While I’m not sure she blogged to seek out and/or welcome feedback, I do agree that she blogged for attention. She is/was definitely of the stroking variety. What’s a stroker? Everything she did and continues to do requires a certain amount of stroking from those around her. I’m so hot, I have so much sex, I went on this great date, I went to this great restaurant, people think I’m so funny, I have these great girlfriends, I have this boyfriend, I have this haircut, I have this orgasm, I dated this loser with this disability, I have this many readers on my blog, check-in check-in check-in check-in, etc. etc. We’re ALL guilty of it in some form or another, but the most secure people typically require the least amount of stroking. For example, I actually have a pretty fantastic life. I have a f*cking phenomenal husband, am about to have my first baby, eat at restaurants that require reservations months in advance, and have great family and friends supporting me through this journey. These are things that I don’t need validated. Life is good. It doesn’t require a FB status update. Last week, however, I accomplished something that most people accomplish ten years before I did. I updated my FB nearly every five minutes with that news. Why? Because I was insecure about my age and the fact that I am “starting over” this late. I NEEDED to hear “it’s never too late!” and “good for you!” Guilty, guilty, guilty….please stroke me, dear friends. I never had witnessed anyone who required so much stroking as this girl….until I started reading about the dude that was playing her game and using her for his own strokes. When people confronted her about it, she grew so unbelievably defensive because some of the stroking had stopped. And, she wanted to believe it was something significant because she really liked him. Yes, the fact that he was just a stroker who needed even more stroking than she did was apparent from the VERY BEGINNING, but that’s certainly not how she wanted to see it. In the end, she got burned and felt like shit for a solid year. Which she told us about. Over and over again. OVER and over again. OVER and OVER again.

    Had she not turned into such a defensive nightmare, I would gladly proclaim that this douche was a ginormous asshole, not because he wasn’t upfront (because I fully believe he was extremely transparent in his desires), but because there is a fine line between needing strokes because of your own insecurities and deliberately using someone to get your strokes. Blogger = former. Douchebag = latter.

    So where does Moxie come in? When a stroker needs stroking and isn’t looking for advice, Moxie becomes the mean girl. Why? Because she got a business to run and happens to offer really fucking fantastic advice because people like this put their stroke-me-only stories out there. Moxie isn’t a mean girl. She’s an objective girl who sees through people’s shit (both women AND men) faster than your average person/girlfriend/person you typically cry on the shoulder of. None of this is compromised by the fact that she’s single or 40 (so just please stop with those arguments), just like the fact that a fucking fantastic director may, in fact, have never be an actor.

    What does all of this mean for readers/bloggers/Moxie/etc.? Nothing, really. Moxie can sit at home at the end of the day with her business and her moisturized hands (free from any chafing from stroking) and know that all she did was offer an objective opinion on why and how both women and men are being idiots in various situations. And I can sit at home (also with moisturized hands) and laugh and nod because I agree with her, almost 100% of the time.

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    • The Private Man Says:

      Validation can wreak havoc when it’s given poorly. Moxie is not in the validation business, she’s in the truth business.

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      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Katie can snark all she likes. Nothing she says will ever change the fact that I was scary accurate about that guy and all her little followers and readers knew it. She doesn’t hate me because I’m mean. She hates me because I was right and she ended up humiliating herself.

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  12. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    I started out genuinely sympathizing for her because I had just gone through the exact same thing. The attention whoring guy that I thought was so sophisticated and attractive who was actually just some pedestrian immature idiot looking for an ego stroke. Every post she wrote included some incredulous story. He was texting someone he thought was her all weekend because he programmed her number into his phone incorrectly and that’s why he didn’t call after her first date. He brought her to a BDSM club on their 2nd date. The elaborate dates. But the kicker was how she insisted he wasn’t reading her blog, even though that’s how he originally met her. Game over. The amount of “you go girl-ing” that occurred in her comments was deafening.

    The minute anybody offered anything that didn’t support her inner narrative – where this “hot”, successful guy with the great body who could date anybody he wanted but chose her and really liked her – she didn’t just disagree with them, she’d hunt them down on Facebook, scour their blogs and twitter feeds and then start writing jabs at them in her posts.

    Never once did I write about her, though I got several emails from her readers begging me to. Including a couple from people who claimed to know him and had begun reading her blog. (Yeah, he wasn’t reading. Okay. Sure.) I saw where that relationship was headed and knew what she was in for. And sure enough, she hung herself out to dry. But what she didn’t tell people was that this guy had been honest with her from the start that he did not want a relationship with her. That fact she kept to herself, because she wanted to be able to play the victim when it did end.

    Where he was a grade A asshole was when he agreed to meet her friends. The guy was just a classic attention whoring drama queen. He knew how she felt and continued to play along until she asked him for more. And when she did, he said no. Thus begun several months worth of tweets and blog posts about how desolate she was, and how heartbroken she was and how he was such a bad guy, and why wasn’t I enough for him.. And of course his friends all had a chuckle at her expense (assholes befriend assholes, you see,and no doubt were women who were screwing him/wanted to screw him) and said how they had “warned him” about her. I so have more to share on him, but won’t because I genuinely think it will flip her the fuck out. Suffice to say that he is a classic blog-fucker/attention whore.

    But what truly,utterly gobsmacks me is how these girls can sit there and write their little burn book blogs about all their dates, and post ads on Craigslist specifically so then can post photos and emails from guys and mock them, and write tweets about people and how unattractive/goofy/weird they are…and then have the audacity to say something like “she just likes to tear women down.” Really??? You write some unprovoked tweet about how I need to die, and then I;m a bad person because I call you out for being a classless, hypocritical loudmouth?

    Someone, unprovoked by me, decided to defend me last night and went after her via Twitter. She went to the “looks” place, which I hate. I actually sent Katie an email apologizing for what that woman said. I told her she could say or think whatever she wanted about me, but I find that level of discussion unnecessary. But does she have the integrity to reply or even admit that? Nope. She’ll play the victim card for as long as she can get mileage out of it.

    . None of this is compromised by the fact that she’s single or 40 (so just please stop with those arguments), just like the fact that a fucking fantastic director may, in fact, have never be an actor.

    Any time a woman makes comments like this, she’s revealing how she truly feels about herself and being single. That’s it. And they don’t even know *what* my status is because I don’t talk about it. My real life friends know, my family knows. That’s enough. I’m not hopping on twitter every time I hit the 1 month mark with a guy. First, I can’t do that because it compromises things. Second, I don’t need to do that. They just assume I’m some lonely spinster because I don’t do what they do. Getting my teeth kicked in once was enough for me to NEVER do that again. They have to find something to use to try and discredit me.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

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  13. Kay Says:

    if you don’t like Moxie’s style, find another blog, it’s that simple

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

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