Name: Joan
Age: 20
State: NY
Question: I’ve been friends with this guy for a while, on a casual level. He’s 30 and I’m 20. I never thought about him romantically or sexually until recently, when he told me that he feels very drawn to me, and that he respects me as a person and feels really attracted to me. Then he went on to say that usually he’d try to have sex with someone he felt so attracted to, but that because we were friends he respected me too much to go there. I was taken aback, because this confession seemed to come out of nowhere, so I had very little response except to say that it’s better to keep things simple between us. Then a few weeks after this I was hanging out with him late at his place again, and he said it again, this time adding that he has nothing to offer me and would never want me to have to deal with his shit. There are a lot of reasons that pursuing something with him would be a challenge, age aside. But that being said, something about his admitting he’s attracted to me and his refusal to make a move out of respect has now made me think about him in a way I hadn’t really before. Am I crazy for falling for this Mr. Darcy stuff? Is there any way to pursue this without it feeling awkward?
Am I crazy for falling for this Mr. Darcy stuff?
I absolutely love that you used this phrase, as it is EXACTLY what I think of when I hear such twee comments from men. No you’re not crazy for falling for it. You’re just young. You’re young and you’re enthralled at the thought of this older and more “sophisticated” guy taking an interest in you.
when he told me that he feels very drawn to me, and that he respects me as a person and feels really attracted to me.
Oh dear. Do tell, Mr. Darcy. Drawn to you? He feels drawn to you? Well, here’s a question…why would a 30 year old man be drawn to a 20 year old? Honestly, does that make sense to you? Is this me being judgey or is that creepy in some way? Or at least out of place? Let’s say he is drawn to you. That alone strikes me as a warning sign. I believe that he’s drawn to your youth. Not uncommon, of course. But I believe, in cases like this, the attraction goes deeper than being about how nubile and pure you are. I tend to think there’s much more to it than that. Maybe he’s drawn to your level of emotional maturity because he’s immature? Or drawn to your inexperience because it doesn’t threaten his ego? I don’t know. What I do know is that if he’s reasonably attractive, he should be able to date women closer to his own age. He either can’t or chooses not to. Red Flag. [Except for you, of course. You're totally different. Not at all immature or insecure.] There will be people with stories of how they dated someone so much older and how profound and powerful that connection was. Breaking….it wasn’t. You just thought it was because you were a child and didn’t know better.
Then he went on to say that usually he’d try to have sex with someone he felt so attracted to, but that because we were friends he respected me too much to go there.
And that, my love, would be a lie. That would be something Mr. Darcy would say. It’s romantic and makes women feel..say it with me….special. Guys don’t talk like characters from romance novels. When they do, it’s strategic. They know that that is how many women think of men and that many females want their love lives to resemble a rom com. And, sadly, many of us do. If a guy wants to have sex with you,and you make yourself available to him, he’ll try to have sex with you. The whole thing about not wanting to ruin the friendship is a lie, too. This reminds me of a blog I read over the weekend. She posted a link to her site on Nerve Confessions asking people for feedback. The guy acted all offended when he invited her to sleep over after their first date and she immediately said she would but there wouldn’t be any sex! [Just everything but. Holy Jesus Christ on a Palomino Pony. Just f*ck him already.] Here’s a classic example of the Grand Gesture Guy. Kissing in the rain. Carrying her up to bed in his arms. Romantic declarations. Fakity fake fake fake. Guys don’t talk like that!
Ladies, it’s an act. They’re pretending to be offended. They’re pretending to be concerned that we think they ‘just want sex.” It’s all part of the dance. We do the “Oh, gee, I don’t know if that’s a good idea” thing while we’ve already run through the fantasy about getting nailed up against a wall by the end of the first cocktail. [PS? That only successfully happens in movies, too. Go ahead. Try to recreate that magic. See how it goes for you.] Either except his invite to go back to his place, lose the coy act and screw him with abandon or don’t. That’s it. None of this in-between crap anymore. You’re making it difficult for all of us.
But that being said, something about his admitting he’s attracted to me and his refusal to make a move out of respect has now made me think about him in a way I hadn’t really before.
Yep. That’s exactly what he wants you to think. He wants you to see him differently, maybe even put him on a pedestal. He’s trying to make it a challenge. He wants you to chase him. It’s all an ego stroke for him.
The guy is full of it. He probably believes what he’s saying, though. That’s why it’s so hard for you to decide what to do. If you want him, have him. Just understand that you’re probably not getting the romantic hero he’s presenting himself as. He’s a 30 year old dude trying to bang a 20 year old at best, or a 30 year old dude who’s wildly immature and insecure trying to date a 20 year old because women on his own level intimidate the crap out of him.
That was an awesome reply! Spot on!!! I was married young and divorced when I was 28. I was NAIVE when I started dating and fell for the Mr. Darcy types. Now I smell them a minute into an exchange
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I have had girls and women playing this coy game with me since I was in grade school and it has continued unabated. I personally believe these younger guys have stolen a page from women’s playbooks. Maybe it’s a result of too many guys being raised by women only. Maybe it’s the proliferation of PUA material. The problem is when the coy game becomes manipulative or is an indication of a lack of maturity or is a result of insecurity, as may quite well be the issue in this case.
However this is going to continue and even expand. Men are falling into similar time-honed behaviors and strategies as women.
Another reality is that men do get to be a little like women as they age, less testosterone and more wisdom. So I too personally tend to be more coy these days, holding my cards closer to my chest. I certainly try to not be manipulative.
I am not sure this guy is necessarily an exact equivalent of Darcy. He is probably unskilled and may even be a little insecure, moreso than immature.
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I read P&P. Mr Darcy is actually a boring, priggish, cypher of a man, and not terribly bright. Elizabeth never gives him a second thought until she discovers just exactly how rich “ten thousand a year” really is (the grounds, the houses, the high-quality servants). Then everything gets retconned.
Her dad is so disappointed that she winds up just like her mother, but he has no right to be. He nearly disowned the sister that actually did “marry for love”, the big old hypocrite. His younger daughters took their cues from what he (nearly) did, not what he said.
P&P is not a romance – it is a nasty, nasty satire.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Moxie is reading too much into this. The guy thinks that the 20-year-old is hot, as many 30-year-old men probably also do. Also, just because he is going for a 20-year old does not mean that 30-year-old women ” intimidate the crap out of him.” This girl is probably better looking and much nicer than the women his own age, which of course makes her attractive.
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I think Moxie is probably right, but I agree that she;s being to judgemental on the age differences. There’s plenty of other things here that should raise a red flag, but age is not neccesarily one of them. I point to my own parents as a prime example. My Dad was 28 when he married my Mom, and she freshly 18. They had 41 years of a solid marriage until he died in 2001, and abetter example of a loving couple and loving parents I’ve yet to see. Not every stick is a snake.
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But that was a couple of generations ago and the world is a very different place now. I’m 32 and get asked out by guys in their early 20s relatively often (FYI: I usually don’t find out their age until the 1st date). It never works because we are WORLDS apart in our lives. When I was the 20 year old and dated guys in their late 20s or early 30s, it never lasted either. Looking back I can see their emotional immaturity and I guess they figured I’d be “simpler” for them than dating women their own age. Fortunately I’ve always been pretty good @ spotting red flags so things never went beyond a few dates and I wasn’t invested.
This guy is just spitting game and the “attraction” on her part is something he has created through a very artful script. Moxie nailed it. And good on the OP for picking up on it.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I totally agree. Moxie seems to be assuming that, all things being equal, a 30-year-old man, or presumably a 40-year-old man, would want to go out with someone his own age, and if he wants to date a younger woman, it’s because he’s intimidated by women his own age.
Perhaps Moxie is giving men too much credit, because here’s how I see it as a man: of course I would want to be with the younger woman because she’s probably hotter than the older woman. That’s all there is to it, no deeper meaning. And often I, and other men, would find the younger woman to be more intimidating than the one around my own age, because the younger woman is more attractive and probably has more dating options. I would find myself more comfortable with and less intimidated by the woman my own age, because we would have more in common, including a more mature understanding of the world.
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Moxie seems to be assuming that, all things being equal, a 30-year-old man, or presumably a 40-year-old man, would want to go out with someone his own age, and if he wants to date a younger woman, it’s because he’s intimidated by women his own age.
No, that’s not what I’m assuming. I wouldn’t blink an eye if a 40 year old man dated a 30year old woman. I’ve said as much, several times, in posts on this blog. Posts you could read by simply clicking the Older Men/Younger Women tag. It isn’t about the difference in ages, it’s about the difference in maturity level and life experience. A 30 year old has gone through enough and has evolved enough to have developed an identity of their own. You can’t say that for a 20 year old, no matter how mature for their age they appear. There is a disparate level of commonality between someone who is 30 and someone who is 20. Enjoying the same movies or hobbies isn’t the same as sharing a core value system or ideologies. You can’t base compatibility on liking the same things. Who someone is at 20 is usually if not always not who they are at 25, 30, etc. That’s the point I’m making. If a 30 year old feels more comfortable with a 20. 21, 22 year old, that speaks volumes about the 30 year old’s maturity level. And that is something that a woman a couple years older or younger would pick up on almost immediately. A 20 year old wouldn’t, mainly because she has no experience to which to draw a comparison.
Additionally, I’d have the exact same opinion if the woman was older. A 30 year old woman dating a 25 year old usually does so because the men her age aren’t interested in her or because she shares a similar emotional maturity level. Or both. If she’s not able to pull a guy her own age, while being in her prime, I would say there’s likely some major personality defect at work or she has somehow made herself undesirable to men her own age.
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Agreed.
Another thing to note: There’s a state of rapid maturation between 18-25; it’s as big as the one between 10-18, only it’s less physical and more psychological/emotional. People can still change (and often do change) as they get older, but I believe it slows down a bit as that 25th birthday comes and goes. Sure, a 19/20 year old is less self-centered than they were the three or four years previous, but all of their experiences are still being filtered with, “HOW DOES THIS AFFECT WHO I *AM*?????”
It’s all being processed as a component of how their identity is shaped, rather than as an experience they are living through and managing.
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I also don’t see the Mr. Darcy connection, and I’m an English major.
That aside, you aren’t into this guy, so don’t go there. You’re feeling a fake connection because he told you he’s attracted. But you weren’t into him before, and it sounds like he has all kinds of issues. Real men don’t say stupid shit like the lines this guy is giving you. And believe him when he says he has nothing to offer. You could get sucked in and find yourself having weird mediocre sex with a messed up guy, while the bogus connection you feel gets harder and harder to break. Total waste of time. I’d stop hanging out with him and spend more time with your real friends.
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The Mr. Darcy reference was something we joked about in a post a few months ago, one that inspired the meme included with this post. Mr. Darcy is one of those fictional characters that women romanticize, like Heathcliffe. It’s also a reference to the effusive and pretentious comments that guys like this make. i.e. “he’s drawn to her.” I’m not drawing a direct comparison between Darcy and the guy in the post. I just refer to these guys as “Mr. Darcy types.”
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Classic silly girl behavior.
“I wasn’t into him before…but he says all this stuff out of nowhere….and now I have feelings for him”
Seriously…Thank goodness for people like Moxie – Because there are a lot of girls out there who just say NO to common sense.
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Even with Moxie’s advice, given her age and the way she is writing, I would give the odds 10-1 that she sleeps with him any way.
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Short answer…. because women like to feel sophisticated even or especially when they are not. Best way to get a younger woman to sleep with you isn’t to shower her with gifts or attention, its to do what this guy did; tell her she’s unique and that you don’t want to have sex with her.
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nothing wrong with a 30 y.o. male and 20 y.o. female getting together.
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In theory, no. However, the minimum socially-acceptable age is 30/2+7=22 years old. And even that is pushing it, considering the rapid personal growth (hopefully) in someone’s early 20s.
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OP –
Focus on the facts:
1. know he’s just trying to sound mysterious and respectful because he wants to eff you. (which is fine).
2. any guy who talks about how much he doesn’t want to get you involved in his “sh*t” is full of it himself
3. if he was 18 saying he was totally drawn to you…would you still be interested? My guess is NO.
So… you’re 20 right?
rule of engagement to play his game: treat him like he’s a nobody and go f*ck your brains out. no talking. no BS. just sex. that’s what he wants. that’s what you want. it’s just s*x and there is nothing wrong with that. save the serious stuff until after you’ve traveled the world (or graduated from college and gotten a a real job…whichever comes first). then move on…
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I agree with Nikki AND Rick because OP did not really give enough info to get a true picture (e.g. what exactly is his “shit”? Does he suffer from Asperger’s and/or Chrohn’s Disease or is he a Malignant Narcissist and/or steals his mother’s disability checks?). The range of one’s self-defined “shit” is vast.
As far as their ages, as Rick said, my grandparents also had a truly beautiful marriage with a 20 year age difference (they first met when she was 18, didn’t date right away, married when she was 22, had 2 sets of identical twin girls by the time she was 26 and genuinely adored each other for a total of 42 years). Of course my grandparents’ generation had different cultural mores, but even so, they still told everyone he was 10 years younger until he got sick. Regardless, he wanted her from the beginning but refused to date her. She was a pistol who didn’t give up and eventually when she turned 20 they started dating.
I’m not saying that this guy is anywhere near the caliber of man that my grandfather was. BUT, technically, my grandfather may have had a very similar, if not identical, conversation with my grandmother when they first met. I mean the guy had 2 divorces and a daughter not much younger than my grandmother left in his wake. AND he was 20, not 10 years older, as well as the director of the play she was acting in, making it all the more heady of a experience for my grandmother and all the more terrifying and sketchy for her parents.
But the fact was she WAS “special”, very mature for her age, pursuing college when most women didn’t, super independent, raging feminist, etc. I agree with much of what Moxie says on many posts except perhaps the whole “feeling special” thing. I don’t think there’s anything wrong w/feeling special in the eyes of your beloved. In fact I think it’s imperative and that if your partner doesn’t make you feel special it’s a deal-breaker. Maybe it’s because I grew up in the “Free to be You and Me” Sesame Street generation w/a a psychologist, single by 25 w/a a toddler at home and an infant in the hospital, earth mother who made us carrot juice in the AM and got her doctorate at night (yes, my sister and I both had a hard time complaining about anything when we turned 25), but I do believe everyone is special in their own way and when you find the person who sees why your special, you hold on to them.
All of that being said, I still also agree with Nikki. I don’t have to tell anyone that reads Moxie’s wisdom how many not-so-worthy guys (and girls) there are out there. This guy could be a total loser fish PU artist or, as Kurt pointes out, maybe he thinks she’s hot OR maybe (GASP) he’s actually telling the truth. There are plenty of us out there who say what we mean and behave genuinely with no ulterior motives. We may be hard to find, especially in cities like NYC or, worse, LA. But we do exist and we come in both sexes. And from my newbie small sampling of Moxie, I’d say some of us even frequent this blog once in awhile.
The point is OP, are you attracted this man physically? If yes, like Nikki suggests, if you’re attracted enough, pursue it, see what happens. Maybe you’ll have a torrid affair with a guy you’d never consider a relationship with. Maybe you’ll fin out he’s tedious and boring and that really, like Kurt said, you just like feeling flattered – nothing wrong with that. Or maybe, just maybe, there’s that small chance that you will have a genuine experience with this guy that you’ll be glad you allowed to happen. As long as you go in with your eyes open, when you’re 20 is the time to give an older guy a test drive if he’s compelling enough.
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Of course my grandparents’ generation had different cultural mores,
Yes. Nowadays people tend to frown upon a twice divorced man in a position of power hitting on a teenager 20 years his junior. We’re so uptight.
Sorry, but you’re idealizing your grandfather. If you think for one second he was drawn to her “maturity” then you’re naive.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Whoa. Wow. A bit harsh don’t you think?
I’m new to your site. I complimented you and your site more than once. You know nothing about me or my, yes beloved, but dead grandparents. Yet you insult me and my grandparents with your cynically snide remark. Why? Just because I “might” disagree with your view that no one is special or should feel special? Who cares why my grandfather was interested in my grandmother? She pursued him. He waited 2 years before dating her and you missed the entire point which is quite telling: They lived happily ever after. Yes, Moxie there is such a thing as true love and if you don’t believe in it then that’s a shame for you and a potential disservice to your readers.
BTW, as to your insinuation re: why my grandfather eventually gave in, despite his reservations with his future wife’s age, I loved her dearly but she was not exactly a beauty. She was indeed very special and attractive for other reasons. So despite the fact that he was older, tall with above-average looks and successful, he saw something “special” and they fell in love.
Lastly, you misunderstood what I wrote re: cultural mores shifting over 75 years (which they do, like for instance women couldn’t vote when my grandmother was born). There were in fact different mores in the late 30′s and early 40′s. For instance there were still many arranged marriages among New York’s ethnic communities that gave very little thought to age difference. My point was that IN SPITE OF THAT, they lied about his age for decades because their situation was NOT OK with her family even back then and into th 60′s and 70′s when their 4 CHILDREN came of age and began having their 6 grandchildren and 9 great-grandchildren. Jeez, what a dirty old man he was and what a silly, young girl she must have been to think he loved her.
Moxie, not everyone is out play you, fuck you or masturbate their own egos. Some people, who come in all shapes, sizes, colors and ages, just plain old dig each other. I know. I met the father of my own child when I was 18. And guess what he’d have no problem saying if you asked him what first drew him to me? My looks. More specifically, my ass. Almost 20 years later (including a break for me to sow some oats b/c sometimes meeting a life partner so young is tough to process), major illness, devastating loss, a child and another on the way – we still totally dig each other.
And yes, he still loves my ass. But no, I don’t care if the first thing he noticed about me or led him to believe I’m special is an 18-year-old girl’s ass. Who doesn’t love an 18-year-old ass? And how many people idealize a parent or grandparent? None of that is the point. If you’re gonna counsel people and support them in trying to find meaningful, fulfilling relationships, you gotta at least believe in the possibility of the magic. Not even just a little Moxie? Really? I don’t believe it or you wouldn’t be doing what you do.
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Chacha1313, that has got to be one of the very best posts I have read at this site. I am so glad someone had the eloquence to illuminate the light rather than wallow in the dark cynicism that can sometimes holds sway at this site.
However, I don’t get the sense that the OP’s situation is a match made in heaven. At some point people have to come to a level of sureness about what they want and go after it. I don’t think this guy is a player, more insecure is what I think. If she wanted to explore further with him, it’s not the worst thing that could happen. He seems steadfast and loyal enough, and she certainly feels safe with him, hanging out late at his place.
I would not personally reccomend it, because I hate to see wishy-washy behavior. It always hits me as someone not wanting something badly enough and/or valuing it enough, to commit resources to try to make things happen.
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Dark cynicism?
I call it bitterness.
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Thanks Howard!
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I don’t think she mentioned anything about being attracted to her maturity. That said, the fact that they stayed together for 40+ years makes the initial attraction motivation kind of a moot point in my book.
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D-Man, not sure how you guys pull quotes or italicize from each others’ posts but IPad won’t let me copy or paste so I guess you’d have to scroll up and reread it…
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I think that women like to feel like special snowflakes, and think that there is something unique and different about our self that would make a man melt for us.
This guy is playing on the OP’s need to be unique and special, and implying that there is something so uniquely fresh and different about her that she’s inspired him to change a decade or more of habitual behavior.
OP: buy a clue. You’re being manipulated.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I think you’re being very judgemental. We all say and do things for people of the opposite sex because we are attracted. Some try to complement the other person. Some buy flowers or drinks or dinners. whatever. Personnally, it looks like what he said is much more effective than dinner or a complement. Sounds like a smart guy.
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Ugh, who put a post under my name and didn’t spell compliment correctly.
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Must’ve been the same person who misspelled judgmental.
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p.s. I think this strategy works particularly well on the “self esteem generation.”
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Moxie, When you said,“He wanted you to chase him. It’s all an ego stroke for him.”
The ego stroke for him and any man is having sex and that is why men have sex, to boost are own egos.Yes it is true it is all about us and that is why men can have casual sex with one or many women, are conscience ever entered the picture, unlike women.
“He want you to chase him” It is she that wants to chase him because that is true romance for a woman, to chase a man that does not want her.
So to sum it all up, The guy always wanted her and she only wanted him when he said that she could not get him “But that being said, something about his admitting he’s attracted to me and his refusal to make a move out of respect has now made me think about him in a way I hadn’t really before.”
So he is happy getting laid by a 20 year old and she is happy because she is falling in love, it is just the game being played.
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So hey its me from the blog featured in this article. All of this feedback whether it was good or bad really made me think, so thank you. I wish I was making this up or embellishing on all these grand gestures but unfortunately he’s that good of an actor. Most of us girl have been called “that naieve girl before, I guess its my turn. Either way life goes on and hopefully I can just take this as a learning experience.
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I wish I was making this up or embellishing on all these grand gestures but unfortunately he’s that good of an actor.
If you truly believe that, then there is no need to meet with him to call him out on his lies. He’s just going to lie some more and you’ll believe him.
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Well the thing is that I do believe that now, but I still want him to tell me what happened and why he lied to my face, not a phone call or text. It’s going to be hard but I just need to stop replaying everything in my head and wondering who? when? and most of all why? Also, he did this and so if he’s going to make me cry I want him to see it and see what he’s done. Does that make sense at all?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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You’re never going to get the truth. That’s not why you want to meet him and talk to him. You want to meet him and talk to him because you still want to be with him. You can still be with him. Just do it knowing he’s a lying liar who lies.
Also, he did this and so if he’s going to make me cry I want him to see it and see what he’s done.
But…what did he do? He promised you NOTHING. He never said he wouldn’t date anyone else. He asked you if you were dating someone else so that he could then turn around and tell you *he* was dating someone else. He offered that information because he sensed you were getting attached and he wanted you to know he’s not serious about you. Hon, he doesn’t care if you cry. Really. You’ll just be embarrassing yourself. No amount of tears will guilt him into being your boyfriend. Just let that fantasy go and enjoy it for what it is if you can. He meant none of it. You need ot get that. He meant NONE of it.
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You’re right, you are, I know. I did tell him I was dating because I was, his timing couldn’t have been worse since I finally was with someone else having fun and then at that exact point I got pulled back in just enough. Did I realize that he was possibly just a liar at that point, yes, did I want to believe it no. Was I completely ready to just have amazing sex with him for one more night regaurdless of what else I had going on, yes, was it right no. If thats all I could get at that point I was ok with it, I needed laid, it was a bad judgement call.
Why I’m mad though is that he DIDN”T turn around and say he was dating or none of this would be happening. I would be hurt but at least I wouldn’t have to go back and write EVERYTHING he ever said as a lie.
Also, no matter what he says when I meet him it won’t matter because no matter what he says I know that I am truly done. I could I see us hooking up sometime down the road, but just sex nothing else. I could never trust him again so I would never be able to be in a relationship or friendship with him, I do know that much.
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I am confused. If you are TRULY DONE, why meet him? Why waste YOUR TIME? Why disrespect yourself by allowing yourself to be mistreated this way? Why allow your self esteem to take yet another blow?
And why would you have NSA sex with a dispicable excuse for a human being?
Do you truly believe that your self esteem, ego, self respect will do jumps for joy by being in the company of this douche?
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You’re not done. You only want to see him because you want to see him. It’s just an excuse to see him. And he know sit, and he knows he’s totally going to be able to bed you again, which is the only reason he’s agreeing to to meet you. He’s an attention whore. You’re an attention whore. That;s why you thought you were so compatible.
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no matter what he says I know that I am truly done.
Uh, no. If you’re willing to “hook up sometimes down the road,” you’re not done. From reading your blog, it looks like you fell for this guy hard and even though you know that there isn’t a relationship in the cards, you still harbor a tiny seed of hope.
If you do hook up with him again, you’re just going to re-engage your emotions for him and start a merry-go-round of hurt and hope.
I don’t think you want to see him to present a list of damning questions to get closure. Quite the opposite. It’s really not a good move. You’re in a small town, so you’re going to see him around. Better to deal with the break now, and cleanly. Unless the amazing sex is worth crushing your heart time and again…
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Also, no matter what he says when I meet him it won’t matter because no matter what he says I know that I am truly done. I could I see us hooking up sometime down the road, but just sex nothing else. I could never trust him again so I would never be able to be in a relationship or friendship with him, I do know that much.
Stop it. The guy mind fucked you, and all you can think about is hooking up with him again. Grow some self respect.
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Oh, I wouldn’t go so far as to say he doesn’t care if she cries. Only sociopaths have no empathy. It’s true that crying won’t change his mind and probably will push him away even more, but ownership of a penis doesn’t mean we don’t care if women cry.
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At this point changing his mind isn’t going to happen. My motive is more that I want him to feel like shit and know he hurt me and shouldn’t be doing this to people. He’s apparently doing the same thing to the girlfriend he has now, so whatever might get him to think for even a minute. Ya know I always wondered why this amazing guy was going through such a messy divorce but never told me why they were getting divorced. I think I possibly have an idea now.
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K so you kinda just answered all you need to know with what you just wrote. I will point it out to you. He went/is going through a very messy divorce – he did not learn a thing from that failed relationship. He found numerous ways to disrespect you which you so allowed him to do each and every time – yet again so did not learn how not to be a douche human being. You say he is treating his current girlfriend the same way, painting her with the same brush he did his ex-wife, and you. Makes me believe he does not want to learn from his mistakes and change.
Basically why is it your job to force him to look at reality when he clearly refuses to do so himself? Most normal human beings would take time out from failed relationships to figure out what they did to contribute towards its demise. Not jump from one failed to another whilst carelessly destroying lives.
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He is not going to feel regret, and you are not going to get closure. Closure is a myth, and it rarely happens in the big girl world.
You made a mistake. Own it. Try not to repeat it. Block this guy out of your mind. Move on. Learn from all of this and stop being naive/dumb.
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Did it ever occur to you that he got back together with his wife (or is trying to) and you were unfortunately at the right place at the wrong time or maybe the wrong place at the right time? Do you know what she looks like? You never spent time w/him during the day. You said the happiest you ever saw him was on his birthday when he said he’d had “breakfast with his family”?
His buddies nudged and winked when you showed up for his bootie text at 2 AM saying “maybe he could have his fun now”. Maybe she had been out celebrating w/him and, as is often the case, left him alone for some guy time to go relieve the babysitter. And why did you suddenly wake up at home after your last hurrah when you spent all your time at his place prior?
Regarless, I agree with everyone: he will lie. But…if you are the type to feel better by simply saying what you need to say or maybe writing it down as you said in your blog. *Did* writing it down make you feel better? Because that’s what’s important. If you believe getting it off your chest face to face is the only way you can put it behind you, then I would go ahead and see him.
BUT only if, as Moxie and everyone else says, you can truly go with NO expectations, weakness for his “piercing” eyes, etc. You must arm yourself against every trigger. Take the Ativan beforehand so you don’t get too anxious to speak your mind and make sure you keep the conversation on your terms by not allowing him to distract you w/flirtation, an inside joke, familiarity, or worse, cruelty, etc. Only if you honestly believe you have the strength to get what you want and come home feeling better (not worse) should you even consider going.
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PS Please don’t refer to yourself as “dumb” esp publically. You are 23, living in a small town, working several jobs and trying to recover from both alcoholic parents and your own addiction. He is (purportedly) a grown man who has been married, divorced, has a child and a nice home. He should know better and now so do you.
But don’t beat yourself up, again esp publically, for wanting to feel good. He wanted you to feel the things you did. He made sure you felt them. whether or not you missed Red Flags, you are not the perpetrator.
PPS If you decide that you like blogging and want to continue, PLEASE use a spellchecker
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Your right I’m just trying to get through life right now, and this is definitely not the worst thing to happen to me but it does suck, so whatever. Yes, I probably didnt spell much right because I usually wrote while pissed/emotional/exhausted, oops lol. I’m a culinary major not a english major I know!
Anyway, ok I’ve realized I shouldn’t hook up with him or think about it, I’ve been manipulated and played out to be an idiot, fine then. I was talking to a friend though and finally realized why I actually have such a need to talk to him, its not in my blog yet so here it is…
The ex boyfriend that I fell in love with a while ago, and ultimately had a huge part in saving my life from drugs and other types of bad decisions I was with for two years. He wasn’t just my boyfriend but my best friend and was my everything. In the end he ended up cheating on me several times and I caught him. I was devastated and cried everyday for probably a year. I refused to talk to him and cut him out of my life. Years later (very recently) I saw him for the first time since at a bar. We talked for hours about our past relationship, current relationships, and everything else. I got the sincere appology that people only dream of and finally have complete closure with him. I just regret that we didn’t do it sooner and so I dont want time to pass like that again to feel ok. I know that things won’t have automatic closure, but I want more than I had in my previous relationship.
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Well, that my answer part of your question because you know that talking to your ex-BF *did* give you closure. However the cop is NOT a guy you dated for 2 years who helped you through a terrible, challenging time. You don’t really know the cop. That being said, I still think only you know in your gut whether facing this guy and saying what you need to is going to make you feel better.
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I see how you would say that about his ex wife, but while I might not know much I KNOW that wasn’t his ex wife. I’ve heard them on the phone, and I’ve seen pictures.
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I still want him to tell me what happened and why he lied to my face,
Your need for “closure” will be your undoing. Accept that some people just suck, learn the lessons you need to learn from it, and move on.
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He lied, that should be a good enough reason for you to just cut ties, finding out whatever more lies he will spin is not going to help you move on from this. The fact he lied what leads you to think you can believe anything else he will say? It does not matter as to the why he lied. He lied because he wanted to, because he can, because he is a douche, direspectful human being and thats how he rolls. To stop replaying it in your head, only you can do that, and no amount of pseudo honesty from him will help you, trust me. He is not going to care, truly care that he has brought you to tears. Making him see the tears and the pain will only fuel his ego, it will do nothing for you.
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I understand that, you’re right..
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TDG:
I certainly was a dumb girl myself at one point in my life, and it wasn’t all that long ago.
Good rule of thumb: If it seems too good to be true, or if it appears completely illogical, it probably is.
The greater the number of grand gestures, the more likely you are to be dealing with a douchebag.
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unfortunately he’s that good of an actor.
No, you’re just that inexperienced of an audience.
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That’s why it’s so hard for you to decide what to do. …. Just understand that you’re probably not getting the romantic hero he’s presenting himself as.
It’s hard to decide because this kind of stuff works on some women. A variation of vulnerability game. But it works sometimes. The OP’s known this guy for a while and hangs out regularly with him. He makes a declaration of interest. Then there’s this:
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Ooops. Forgot to end the quote…
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I am friends with a guy who tries to pick up younger woman, but he isn’t interested in a relationship. He is drawn fooling you because he is older. He also is drawn to your young hot body he’s like to fuck. He doesn’t actually care about you. Being friends with you is step one. then he puts a sexual idea in YOUR MIND. The first thing is he won’t make a move because he is afraid of getting charged with rape. So he plants it in YOUR head, so the YOU mull it over in YOUR head and YOU make a move. Then it’s not he who made advances, it’s YOU. So YOU are the blame. Second, he is more than drawn to you, that’s just a nice way to say he wants to have sex with you. Third, he doens’t want you to get entangled in his shit? That means he wants sex period, no relationship (no strings attached). If he says he’s afraid to ruin the friendship? It means he PLANS on ruining the friendship and leaving you in the dust. Wham Bam thank you m’am. Men who try to have relationships with younger women usually don’t like it, there is too much drama, and they don’t really want to start anything. The ones that learned will run after older women for relationships. the ones who haven’t are just trying to use you, and figure they could, but after a while the novelty wears off. You are just eye candy, a roll in the hay and then toss away rag material.
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Wow. Bitter much?
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Seriously bitter. Either that all happened to you because it was waaaaay to specific. And if it did, I’m so sorry because it sounds potentially super devastating. Maybe it even deserves it’s own post and discussion. Or if you’re just trying to help a gal out, perhaps a different approach that might leave her with her head on straight (as in don’t chop it off). Sheesh, she’s 20.
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This kind of bitterness may be what is driving men to date younger women. Who wants to deal with this much cynicism and negativity??
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Just want to add that there is always a possibility with age differences, it’s just that it’s a different generation. a couple generations ago, people would marry at unequal ages. Today they will certainly date different ages, but usually marry someone their own age. Of course it doesn’t mean that there isn’t a rare exception
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I see a lot of cynicism. There are many women on this site, who as they get older, resent that men prefer younger women. When they were younger and getting all the attention, they didn’t mind. But now that they are on the short end of the stick, they feel men should only date women their age. Interestingly, now that some men are pursuing older women, there is no criticism of women dating younger. That is just a double standard. This resentment is manifesting in giving this girl negative advice.
Whether he says drawn or attracted… what is the difference? He simply said he is attracted. Why are we getting philisophical here…..whether is is attracted because he likes sex (who doesn’t), whether is will build his ego (being with someone always makes you feel better – and it builds her ego too!) He was very honest with this woman. Why are you making him into a deceitful man…. all this contempt. a lot a mysandry here…..
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The more this has played out in the comments, the more I tend to agree with what Chester wrote. Too much cynicism and bitterness. But that’s to be expected around here.
I do, however, agree that it’s best that the OP leave him alone. Whatever his thinking, he is clearly not in a position to offer her a real relationship. And she seems to need to sort out some of her own shit anyway. It just sound like shred elevated this guy in her mind – someone her note said was a casual friend – to the point where his every last move seems life and death. Who cares that much about someone who is casually in their lives? Something is missing from this story.
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I think the author of the question to Moxie is also the author of this blog:
http://whydoesthishavetobecomplicated.blogspot.com/
…which spells out a little more clearly why this guy is a bad guy.
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No, she’s not the same person who submitted the letter. I just linked to her blog in the post because it reminded me of this woman’s letter. She then decided to come here and “get feedback” about her “situation.’
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OOOOHHHHH….okay. Thanks for the explanation.
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Hey it’s “the dumb girl” from the blog that was mentioned in this article/comments. I finally did talk to my ex and get at least some closure. I just updates my blog about it, so check it out! Whydoesthishavetobecomplicated.blogspot.com
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From the BS to Reality Translator:
“I need closure” = “I want my ex to think I’ve gone completely nuts”
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To me it sounds like this guy is practicing a classic reverse psychology technique that he probably read about in some crappy e-book about how to get girls. “Tell them you really like them, but they shouldn’t like you. After all, girls love guys they ‘shouldn’t’.” And it seemed to work exactly how he wanted it to. It works because he strokes your ego without sounding desperate or needy, and you’re just like genuinely flattered. Kind of like when a gay guy tells you you’re really pretty, you think it’s a genuine compliment because they aren’t trying to bang you. But because this guy is straight, this technique is basically him daring you to try to win him over. Like Moxie said, making you chase him. But I think not necessarily to stroke his ego, but for the purposes of just getting you into bed with him, and then he can walk away from you getting attached by saying “I told you not to get involved with me.” I can’t decide if he’s an idiot or a genius.
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