READER RANT – Should A Woman Choose Love Over A Career?

Name: M
Age: 32
Story: I started a new relationship about 2 months ago, and we are currently hitting our first rough spot.  While that’s not fun, it got me thinking.  This particular problem has cropped up with a lot of the girls I’ve dated, and I doubt those girls have much of an idea how much of a problem this is.  The problem Im talking about is girls’ devotion to their careers.  Yes, this applies to guys just as much, but since I dont try to date guys, I know nothing about how it that goes and so I wont talk about this from that angle.
The fact that you are on this site, a dating blog, and not on some professionals networking or how-to-get-ahead-in-business web site indicates dating is at least as important as, and probably more important than, your job to you.  And why shouldnt it be?  If you work 40 hours a week, the time you spend over the course of your life working is only HALF of the time you spend with your significant other, assuming you spend evenings, weekends, vacations and retirement together.  Most girls say they want to meet a guy, fall in love, get married (and possibly have kids, though thats not really relevant to this discussion).  Yet in their prime dating years, large numbers of young women choose to put career ahead of dating.  They work long hours, work on weekends, and take home work from the office, all of which detract from time they could spend dating or building relationships.  In doing so, they turn off, blow off or repel desirable guys, the same kinds of guys these girls claim to want to date.  Most guys are taken by girls who devote more time and effort to their relationships, and the older the girl gets, the quality of the average guy remaining on the market decreases.  By the time girls make sufficient progress in their careers that they feel they can put more time/effort into relationships (generally between 28-34, based on what Ive seen among career oriented women), the most desirable guys are taken, and the girls are left with two choices: settle, which means lowering their standards, or push forward, insisting they will find their knight in shining armor, which is unlikely to happen. Unfortunately for them, the men their age would rather – and often do – date the younger, prettier girls, and as such, arent as interested in their same-age counterparts.  Even if girls are able to find a decent guy their own age, he may be beaten down from years of dating and living the single life, and hence, emotionally exhausted.  From here, it just gets tougher.  Women and men both age, but womens’ value to men drops considerably more than vice versa after a certain age, especially for men looking to have kids.
The point is, for women looking for a long term relationship, your 20s are your golden years.  You are young, vibrant, energetic, and most likely, as attractive as you will ever be.  To waste that on something like a job that will never bring you the kind of true happiness that only a good, solid, meaningful relationship can is a mistake you may regret for the rest of your life, and one you wont get a chance to do over.  I can understand why one might want to devote themselves to their work.  But its critical to realize that the amount of effort you put into it is far from the only factor that will determine whether you reach your career goals.  Even if you do a great job, bad bosses, backstabbing coworkers, office politics, budget cuts, lack of opportunities or plain old competition (and a whole array of other factors) may prevent you from reaching your goals.  You may very well work really hard into your early or mid 30s only to find that you havent progressed much farther than those who you started your career with but who didnt put in quite so many hours.  At that point, what was all your extra work for and was it really worth it?  For most, I suspect the answer is no.  So as I think about my relationship history and all the times when girls’ jobs put unreasonable demands on them and, due to their devotion to their careers, they automatically kowtow to those jobs without thinking, I cant help but wonder what might have been if they had had a more sensible work-life balance.  Just so we’re clear, I dont expect a girl to completely blow off work to date me.  However, I do expect to be somewhere on my girlfriend’s list of priorities, and I do expect to move up that list the longer we are together, and at some point, I expect to move above the girl’s job on her list of priorities.  I know if I had such a special girl in my life, at some point, she would become more important to me than my job.  Considering a job is easier to replace than such a special person (boyfriend/girlfriend/fiance/spouse), and considering how much time is [potentially] ultimately spent with each, doesnt it make sense, even in this economy?

 

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170 Responses to “READER RANT – Should A Woman Choose Love Over A Career?”

  1. Marshmallow Says:

    I don;t even know where to start. OP doesn’t mention where he lives but if it is NYC, I can’t imagine he could be so clueless. Unless a woman has very generous parents, she needs to work hard to be able to afford to live there. It’s a fact of life for men too. I love the line about how a job is easier to replace than a special person – what color is the sky in your world?

    OP does not have a grasp on reality. Who is going to support these women if they lose their job? This is a fact of life in the world today – it is an employer’s market. Does he really think people have a choice over how many hours they work?

    Dear bitter men. Enough with this line: “Women and men both age, but womens’ value to men drops considerably more than vice versa after a certain age, especially for men looking to have kids.” I have to say from my experience, most women tend to age better than most men do because we are taught at an early age to take care of ourselves.

    If getting older means I’ll miss out on a man who only values me for my looks (and unless he has a time machine, his 20 year old wife is going to age too), I’ll live.

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    • Kurt Says:

      You are naive if you deny that a woman’s looks aren’t a major component of her attractiveness to men.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 19 Thumb down 17

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      • K Says:

        She didn’t deny that. She challenged the blanket statement that women’s value drops as they age. She said women age better than men, which I’d agree with – we have all these products we can use to take care of our skin, we don’t (usually) lose our hair, and we can wear makeup. Sure, if you look old and out of shape you may be more limited in the men you can attract, but if you’re 35 or 45 or 55 and you look great and are fit, you’ll have plenty of options.

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        • Kurt Says:

          Women tend to show age in their faces at an earlier age than men and the science supports this conclusion. We all have the proteins collagen and elastin in our skin which heal damaged skin. However, as we age the amount of collagen and elastin in our skin decreases, which is why we get wrinkles as we age. Do a quick google search and you will see many scholarly articles about this topic – women naturally lose collagen and elastin at a faster rate than men, which is why women tend to get crow’s feet and other wrinkles at a younger age than their male peers.

          Women probably implicitly know this which could be part of the reason why they go after older men.

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          • Angel Says:

            Uh, never heard that and don’t care. Skin products and treatments counteract those effects. I wear sunscreen, exfoliate, and use a good antioxidant day cream and retinol night cream. Late 30s, no wrinkles, and my skin glows. I don’t go after older men. Younger men hit on me regularly. Suck it, Kurt.

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            • elizabeth Says:

              Angel Honey……………

              You nailed it! I have followed a similar routine….I am over 60 ….take hormones…exercise on a very regular basis….size 4-6 …..love being pale and powerful. I have more hair and less wrinkles than most of the men their 40s and 50s I meet. I work hard and am not looking for a man to pick up the tab financially….emotional rapport is my goal. That is the deal on my looks.

              Business,,,,I sleep with the Boss….me. I love what I do and do not plan to retire. I have more energy and more to offer the world and the right man than when I was 35. The right man will respect me for what I do not resent it!

              The poor dear is looking for a princess. Hope he can afford one!

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            • Cee Says:

              Another woman generalizing their experiences to encompass the whole. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but young man, especially desirable ones, want nothing to do with you aside from dumping a shameless fuck into you once or twice. They will not commit to you so your delusions of grandeur do not matter.

              I guarantee if you posted a picture here – no one would mistake you for a 20 year old. I understand that science really hurts your feelings but do try to wrap your mind around the truth from time to time without it exploding. It is PROVEN that women age worse than men do. To argue this would he to suggest that you are some sort of scientist who has come up with conflicting evidence.

              But Angel, I suspect you aren’t a scientist, but another butt-hurt spinster who hates it when reality gets in the way of your delusions! Stamp your feet and argue from the exception all you want but you will still be wrong. The world works how it works and not the way you want it to. Welcome to life.

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              • K Says:

                Ha! So angry.

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                • Selena Says:

                  Yes. And WHY so angry at the tender age of 23? That’s the puzzling question.

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                • Cee Says:

                  Did you mistake my criticisms of your deeply held ego-invested beliefs as anger? Oh. Well call it what you will. I am certainly a firm believer that some people understand you better when you’re disrespectful. Since you cannot shame me with accusations of misogyny, it will better serve your ego to brand me as an angry little girl.

                  LS has been more than a gentleman on this thread, Moxie has kept an EXTREMELY level head and have handled you spoiled lot with what I would consider kid gloves. They have practiced a level of patience I’d yet to unlock.

                  Despite their genial manner, you princesses thumb them down to hell the first moment you even catch a whiff of what might could maybe be a judgement or criticism of your poor, less-than-optimal choices in life. God forbid you may experience more than 1 second of cognitive dissonance or moment of introspection! So tell me, why should I put on kid gloves? It’s not like you lot respond better to that, so I might as well come out with it.

                  That’s fine though. I don’t really expect this information to be of benefit to you lot as you’ve already made your bed and to find out the reasons why your bed is so shitty may drive you into depression. Instead, K, do not for one second let reality get in the way of your feelings. Pay me no mind. Rather, just allow me to at least hold you up as an example of what women who still have hope should never become.

                  Best,

                  Cee

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                  • Selena Says:

                    Cee, are you familiar with the term male-identified woman? This sounds like you:

                    http://aloftyexistence.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/male-identified-woman/

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                    • Cee Says:

                      Male Identified Woman: An amusing red-light term coined  by feminists to shame or isolate women with the temerity to reject their flawed and failed premises,  dares treat them like full grown adults as she would, say, a man, for the purposes of  shutting down dissension before it can even be intellectually and honestly exhausted.

                      Now tell me, marsh, I’m sure “shaming tactics” and “mental weakness” are terms you’re quite faniliar with, no?

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                  • Angel Says:

                    Cee, I don’t spend any time “trying to find out the reasons my bed is so shitty” (???), mostly because I am too busy having sex with my hot, age appropriate, 6’2″ national champion athlete boyfriend in said bed. If this is spinsterhood, I am really enjoying it.

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                  • India Says:

                    Cee, you are in the prime of your youth. Don’t waste your energy arguing with declining, aging old folks. Just make you sure you spend your prime years wisely.

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              • Marshmallow Says:

                It’s amazing women don’t off themselves when we turn 30. I have never read a study saying women age worse than men do. The issue is youth being valued not beauty but that is a reaction to women making strides in work and education. We don’t need men for financial support and this is a way to keep us in our place. Take THAT career woman!

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                • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                  Hormonal changes and fluxuations can and do greatly affect a woman’s looks.

                  The issue is youth being valued not beauty but that is a reaction to women making strides in work and education.

                  That’s not what some of us are saying, and it wasn’t what M said. No man begrudges a woman for being educated or successful. They are dismissing the false belief that a woman can make her career a priority and still manage to find and maintain a healthy relationship past a certain age. Even the most progressive man in the world would prefer that he and his wife raise their children if that is financially possible. A woman who devotes 10+ to her career isn’t as willing or likely to just quit to stay home with the kids.

                  Then there’s the fact that men hear the “I don’t have time for a relationship due to my work” and scoff, as they and many if not most of their peers manage to do it even with the most stressful and time consuming of schedules. They 8know8 it’s a false belief, one that has been perpetuated and repeated by women.

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                  • India Says:

                    He majority of working mothers today – in this economy – are working to support their families. Many say to me that they would gladly reduce their hours or focus on their families entirely. But it is just not possible with an over 8 unemployment rate and many of their partners can only find part time jobs.
                    These women are not working out of vanity. No one wants to work 60 hours a week if it was not out of necessity.

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            • Kurt Says:

              Angel, I am sure that young men do go for you to satisfy their “cougar” fix. But if you want to get married, you have to realize that younger men generally don’t want to marry an old crone.

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              • K Says:

                Kurt, you make a lot of assumptions. How do you know Angel is not already married? Or wants to be? She definitely did not say she wants to marry a younger man (or even hook up with one). She didn’t even say she thinks she looks a certain age (i.e. 20). All she said was that her skin looks great because she takes care of it, and she has no wrinkles. And that younger men hit on her.

                It wouldn’t bother any of us ladies if you said you are 40 but are slim, muscular, and have all your hair, and get hit on by younger women. I’d say play on, playa. I don’t get why what Angel said bothers you.

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            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              Jesus.

              One? You have wrinkles. If you don’t, then you’re probably overweight. EVERYBODY gets wrinkles. Those creams don’t stop the aging process. They might give us a little extra bump, but they do not prevent aging.

              Two? Younger guys hit on ALL older women. It’s a right of passage. I wish women would stop using that as evidence that men find them attractive. Attraction has nothing to do with it.

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              • K Says:

                Again, I have to say… why does this bother you? Some women in their 30s don’t have wrinkles yet, but obviously they will at some point. Why do you care? Why does Kurt care?

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                • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                  I’m not the one writing comment after comment in this thread. I think the person you should be asking that is you. Kurt’ has written a few comments. You and Fuzzilla are all over this thread. Why? Why can you have your own sensitivities and beliefs but nobody else can? You’re cracking on Cee for being so angry, but listen to yourself. You are beside yourself because of some of these comments. Additionally, people who are confident in their beliefs don’t feel a need to so vehemently defend their stance.

                  Women who go around saying “I have no wrinkles” and “I get hit on by younger men all the time!” are women who fear getting older. It’s the aging process. It happens to everyone.

                  So far, her Mom had it all, she has no wrinkles and younger men hit on her all the time. Either she is one incredibly lucky person who beats the odds in several fundamental areas in her life, or her perception of herself, her upbring and how men respond to her is distorted. I’ll let you guess which one is more likely.

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                  • K Says:

                    You’ve written a lot of comments in this thread as well, some quite vehement.

                    But yeah, I do feel strongly that if someone wants a marriage, career, and family, she or he can find a way to do it without dropping the ball on any one part of it. I stand up for that. It’s one of my core beliefs.

                    I also feel that women can look great at any age and as long as they look great they will get male attention.

                    So I disagree with some comments because I have strong viewpoints about these particular issues. I def don’t comment on every thread, just stuff I know about or feel strongly about.

                    And feeling strongly doesn’t translate into feeling threatened, not at all. If I’m strongly pro-choice, I guess yeah, I might feel threatened by right-wing politicians that may want to take that away from me… But I don’t feel threatened by someone like Kurt or Cee stating that a woman in her 30s must be an old crone, or you saying she must have wrinkles.

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                    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                      I’ve written a total of 5 comments out of the 120 or so comments. Even your perception of how many comments I’ve written is off.

                      You can have whatever beliefs you want. But if you find yourself this bothered by what the people here are saying, then you don’t really believe what you think you believe.

                      Can a woman look beautiful at any age? Sure. And I’m sure she’ll have all of her girlfriends telling her that. That’s sort of the problem. What she won’t have is many men telling her that. And whether or not that aligns with your core belief system, that’s the truth and that’s important. The men here are trying to impress that upon women, but the women don’t want to hear it.

                      Men favor youth. It’s that simple. Whether or not you agree with that is irrelevant to the men who favor youth. And that’s most of them.

                      If you’d also like to believe that a woman can have it all and it all will be satisfying, have at it. The only women who say that are women who have never done it. There isn’t enough time in the day to devote to all three areas. Something suffers. So while you might be able to have it all, you’re not going to be good at all of it.

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              • Trisha Says:

                I am 48, have no wrinkles and wear size 6. I rarely see the sun, don’t live in city smog, have never smoked, not a huger drinker, use aloe vera religiously on my skin and my diet is full of good fats. And if I could, I would post a recent photo as proof. It can be done. Just saying.

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              • Kurt Says:

                “Younger guys hit on ALL older women. It’s a right of passage. I wish women would stop using that as evidence that men find them attractive. Attraction has nothing to do with it.”

                This is true, particularly if it happens at a bar. Sometimes younger men assume, rightly or wrongly, that a late 30s or older woman will be more desperate or hornier and easier to get into bed than a young woman will be. But it is doubtful that those young men would even consider introducing a much older woman their their parents as their girlfriend.

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                • K Says:

                  Kurt, not to beat a dead horse here, but I don’t think most women are that interested in committing to or marrying a younger man. Younger men can be fun as a fling, but I don’t think we take them seriously as boyfriend material. This past winter when I was single I had a 3-month thing with a guy 11 years younger, and it was just for sex/entertainment. I never would have introduced him as my boyfriend… I liked him and thought he was funny and admired his stamina, but he was just a diversion. My point is, you’re not telling us anything new here if you’re intending the above to be a “gotcha.” I think we’re all on the same page. Also, I personally don’t get my sense of attractiveness from how much I get hit on by younger men, but rather from a broad spectrum of feedback I get from others plus what I see in the mirror.

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          • Eliza Says:

            Love the responses you got from the women below! Right on point. :) lol. By the way, aging varies so much — depending on care, and genes. You can’t control DNA. Some people simply age more gracefully. regardless of gender. So – Kurt think before you come across very ignorant. And you need to get your head out of the clouds or climb from under your rock. Plenty of women today, that are highly successful and beautiful, and don’t even look their age–that go after younger men, and that are APPROACHED by men half their age. Deal with it!

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          • Marshmallow Says:

            Kurt, I want to move to the planet you live on with all these handsome older men without wrinkles and beer bellies. There is this strange belief that all men in their late 40s look like Brad Pitt and have Mark Zuckerberg’s bank account. The majority of women seem to have accepted the fact that the average man is well, average. It would be helpful if our male counterparts did as well.

            And I love this notion that men have endless fertility.

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        • Joey Giraud Says:

          but if you’re 35 or 45 or 55 and you look great and are fit, you’ll have plenty of options.

          It’s good to keep a positive outlook.

          Last Saturday I was at a party and there were a half-dozen ladies about 10 years older then I ( I’m 51.) I really enjoyed talking with them, and two of them were quite beautiful, intelligent and in very good shape.

          I really hate to say this, but while my eyes and my mind recognized their fine qualities and I enjoy their company, my female-hunting circuits were not activated.

          Biology sucks.

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    • Eliza Says:

      Very well said Marshmallow. You are right – the OP comes across as being ignorant and very short-sighted and unrealistic about the demands placed on the “employer” – especially in today’s economic crisis. It’s so competitive – in any industry today, moreso with outsourcing. And if one goes into opening their own business, it’s more likely they will work very long hours – in the beginning – to ensure it takes off successfully and remains in that direction. What’s so difficult to comprehend about this? If a woman has invested her time and money in earning her bachelor’s degree and perhaps a master’s degree in her chosen field…why throw it away, and not utilize what she has learned to establish herself. I do believe one can strike a nice balance, but yes, women still earn less than men do – for the same level of work/end result. Is it fair–no–but the truth. Secondly, there is no guarantee if an attractive woman in her 20’s does have that extra personal time to devote to dating and possibly getting married that it will last, and unfortunately-if it doesn’t, what is a woman to do to support herself? Also–most women do age better than men do. Women who workout out, and care for their skin don’t bring pot belly’s, or beer bellies and balding heads to the table. You can be 45 and still look great if you care for your self and are healthy looking. Also, any man that feels that a woman’s “value declines” based on her looks alone, is a man any intelligent and respectable woman would steer clear of and not give much thought to. Any man that views women in such a shallow mentality is useless. I personally believe that a woman CAN have it all, beauty and brains – and yes, a career is something a woman these days has to consider early on. You can do both.

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      • M Says:

        OP here. If you choose to open your own business, that is your own choice, and you make it knowing you will need to put a lot of time into it. But dont act like that wont impact your dating life. As a guy, I wouldnt want to date someone who works 12-14 hours a day running their small business, especially knowing that if we got married and her business wasnt doing so great, I’d expect her to come running to me for a needed infusion of my hard earned cash. I dont know why you are even bring up this point though, as most people do not run their own businesses.

        I never said anything about not utilizing your degrees. My beef is with devoting massive amounts of time to your career which keep you from starting, building or maintaining a relationiship. I have a master’s, I have worked hard and built up my career, yet it has not impacted my ability to date. If I can do that, why cant a woman? You seem to miss the point entirely – you seem to think there is working 50-60 hours a week, and there is not working at all. I am saying people – male and female – should be working 40 hours, which is the standard, the norm; anything more than that is additional work or overtime (which often goes uncompensated, at least for the salaried).

        As for looks, you must live somewhere very different from where I live, because most 45 year olds here are average at best in terms of looks. Few work out and maintain their looks. Also, you are deluding yourself if you think a 45 year old is as capable of having kids as a 28 year old, and yes, this is quite important to men looking to have kids.

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        • wishing u well Says:

          “As a guy, I wouldnt want to date someone who works 12-14 hours a day running their small business, especially knowing that if we got married and her business wasnt doing so great, I’d expect her to come running to me for a needed infusion of my hard earned cash.”

          Honestly – with that attitude, don’t get married. It’s a team effort that is more about the “we” than the “me.” Keeping score in such a manner with a potential partner incurring “debts” such as that? That’s a great way to end up divorced.

          In addition – at least here in the NYC area – it is assumed that you will work over 40 hrs a week if necessary. If the company even gets a whiff of the idea that you may not be willing to “go above and beyond” if needed is career suicide in a few fields. In some cases, it’s even a great way to get forced out of your job. Employers hold the cards, and it’s a matter of being sure to pick a right fit of a company that allows you to strike a decent work-life balance.

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          • M Says:

            It is important to figure out a good work-life balance. When I finished up grad school, I had offers for two very different jobs. One would have had me work 50, 60 hours a week or more but with a higher salary. The other would have paid about half what the first did, but it would have been more stable and I would rarely have to work over 40 hours, and if I ever did, there was a real reason for it. I chose the second job and havent looked back in part because its important to me to have time off. I work to live, I dont live to work.

            As for the small business thing, I have a lot of respect for those that have and run their own businesses. However, I would view a spouse who wanted to start her own business as someone who wanted to live out her fantasy on my dime. Knowing that most new businesses fail, and the significant time it would eat up, and knowing that it would eat up the money I have worked hard to earn and then save, I really dont like the idea. To get the same retirement my dad had (who had the same employer I do), I already have to work until Im like 85. The last thing I need is for someone to come in and burn through what I have saved because she cant go and get a job (as opposed to being self employed) life everyone else.

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            • wishing u well Says:

              Well, I understand your point. And I agree about the importance of a decent work-life balance. I used to work for a company in which the running joke was that we were in a version of “corporate slavery” in which we were tethered to our laptops, working nights, weekends, and mornings before going into the office. You know it’s bad when you wake up in a cold sweat at 2AM over a project, log on, and actually start to WORK on it. It’s even worse when co-workers are responding to your emails in real time! It only took 1 year of that consistent way of life for me to wake up and realize that the impending consequences were larger than I was willing to bear. Since then I have been sure to work for companies that are a little less intense, and it’s been one of the best decisions that I’ve made for myself. Do I have to work beyond my schedule? Sometimes, and I budget my time accordingly. However, I am not living for the company. Balance is key.

              Regarding the small business thing…well, they come in all shapes and sizes. What if said potential spouse had her own funds saved up to fund her dream that she had been working on for years (or inherited), prior to meeting you? And what if the small business was something tried and true, such as opening her own franchise of a laundromat chain or her own McDonald’s? I know that this isn’t the typical scenario for women in their 20’s and 30’s, but I do personally know a couple of people now in their 40’s who chose such a path a few years back and are now successful. I understand where you’re coming from though and you have the right to make a personal choice….however the intensity of your initial rant appeared to demonize women who make such a choice.

              What really jumped out at me at the time was a seeming attitude of “I’m protecting what I earned and what I’ve made” and its overall importance to you. It just seems to screem “MINE MINE MINE.” What you’ve worked hard to earn is invaluable, but being married often involves many sacrifices of ourselves. Some are anticipated and some are more than we ever expected. Did you see Moxie’s earlier post about “Are You Ready to Fight the Good Fight?” I highly suggest you scroll through the archives and read it. Much needed food for thought here. I wish you well.

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        • Eliza Says:

          I agree with wishing well….marriage is “work” – and well worth the time and energy you put into it. I live in NYC…not sure what planet you live on….but a 40 hour work week is minimal in corporate America – in NY. It’s extremely competitive–in any field or at any level…because if you actually read and/or watch the news every day–you will know that for every position today–there are more than 5 qualified candidates vying for it. As wishing u well makes a valid point–if an employer merely suspects that you are running out at 5pm – and are a clock watcher…you will get a pink slip…employers today are in a position to demand more…is it fair–definitely not. But that’s reality. wake up. Not every company offers a decent work-life balance. Good luck-you will need it. Again, don’t know where you live. But NY is highly competitive. And the same level of work product is expected of women.

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    • M Says:

      To answer your question, I live in a place called NotNewYork. Its very large, and is home to 97% of the population of the United States. You should visit it some time; its really quite different than New York. Also, in NotNewYork, women tend to spend less time taking care of themselves as they age, hence, they become less attractive. Also, no skin care regiment, no matter how involved, can keep you easily able to have kids well into your 40s.

      Im not saying girls should work at all, Im just saying dont work so damn hard. Where I work, the difference between working your @$$ off all year and slacking off, getting some stuff done, but mainly coasting by is about $1,500/year in terms of raises. Most years, I would say its closer to $500/year. THe point is working really hard isnt going to do that much for you. Im not saying slack off – Im saying go in, get your work done, but dont kill yourself getting it done. You may not know this, but the only country where people work longer hours than in the US is Japan. Think about their work ethic – is that what you want to be like, or would you rather work less and enjoy your life like a European?

      Its not that your waiting will keep you from finding a guy that likes how you look, its that it will keep you from finding a guy who is interested in anything more than a one night stand. If you choose to put your career first and not try to find someone until later in life, that is your choice, but dont complain why you find it hard to meet that special someone.

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      • Mary Says:

        It seems like you are the one complaining here, M. Honestly, you seem to have such an ultra negative and skewed view of women that I don’t know if you will ever find anyone that measures up. Change your attitude or give up.

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  2. fuzzilla Says:

    Who’s the common denominator here? Maybe they’re using “work” as an excuse not to see him ‘cuz he’s a whiny bitch.

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    • Kurt Says:

      He actually has a point. I personally know of a number of white collar women who are like this who effectively wasted their prime dating years either working or playing the field. Although they have always claimed that they wanted to get married, they didn’t get serious about this until they were pushing 40, at which time they were upset to learn that the type of men they wanted didn’t want to settle for them.

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    • M Says:

      That’s right. Im the whiny bitch who is driving girls away with my complaining. Never mind the one whose obsession with work caused her health problems that forced her onto disability for several months or my current girlfriend who I have not even brought this up with yet. In fact, Im not sure Ive brought this up with any of them. YOu just keep believeing whatever you want.

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      • fuzzilla Says:

        OK, “whiny bitch” was juvenile; I apologize. (Point still stands that you’re the common denominator; maybe you need a better “woman picker.” Whatever one’s ideology, demanding that people change their behavior to suit you is never a successful strategy).

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        • M Says:

          OK, let me play devil’s advocate. What if I accept my girlfriend’s busy schedule. As a result, we never see each other during the week. I can only see her on weekends, when she also has to run errands, visit family, hang out with friends (which keeps us from having alone time), and oh, she also spends a few hours at work on weekends. How do you think the relationship is going to progress under those circumstances? Do you think it will, or do you think it will just die out?

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          • Selena Says:

            Why did you choose her as your girlfriend in the first place? If this is really what life is like with her, and you are clearly unhappy, why not break it off?

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            • DrivingMeNutes Says:

              Yeah, this is the only question that matters. Why are you dating someone that makes you so unhappy you need to rant on the Internet. Also, note that, for the most part, it’s the men here who are complaining about their busy, working women. That should tell you something.

              Here’s a clue (or the answer.). Women are not a monolith. Some women want to work fewer hours or not at all and focus on raising a family. Some women want to focus on their careers or money or fame and sacrifice other things. Guess what? They’re not necessarily the same women. The female investment bankers and corproate lawyers, for the most part, are not on the blogs complaining about men. They’re working, and living their lives. And, a lot are already married. I doubt there is even a significant amount of single “high powered” women walking around in their 40’s wondering what happened, and why they’re not married with children. Those women KNOW what happened. They chose it. In spite of your dire warnings that they’ll regret it, women, just like men, KNOW what they want and, in general, take the past that best makes them happy. Jesus.

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          • Eliza Says:

            M–if you develop a strong bond with your girlfriend…it’s the quality of time, not necessarily the quantity of time you both spend together that matters. Within reason, of course. I am sure she doesn’t work EVERY weekend…does she? And if she does–is it a full day of work on Sat. and/or Sunday? Perhaps you can’t see each other EVERY night–but 2 nights a week, and the weekends. If your girlfriend’s chosen field requires long hours – now and going forward, this is something you need to either accept, and support her on, or if it’s such a dealbreaker–and you are not getting your needs met…move on. Meet a woman that has more free time. You may not have the same connection, but it’s a chance you may consider. Also, perhaps your girlfriend is working towards a goal…like buying her first home.

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    • Eliza Says:

      Most women with a strong work ethic, and who are responsible and goal-oriented would go that route (and distance themselves from “M” – from “NotNewYork”! LOL)–if a man is crying like some little girl – after merely 2 months of dating.

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      • M Says:

        Well, its not after 2 months. Its after a series of relationships that have been like this that add up to several years. Im all in favor of being responsible and goal oriented. Im just saying why do all the goals have to be career-related?

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        • Eliza Says:

          M–OK. Not all goals have to be career-oriented. However, other goals such as starting a family, or owning your first home DO require you to be established in your chosen profession…timewise–and financially as well. One is never really fully ready to be a parent–but they can be more prepared financially – the same goes for owning a house. It’s tied into working. Going away on vacation too. It all requires financial stability – being able to afford to do fun things like travel. Ultimately–many goals are somehow related to our earning potential–that is, our professions. You need to accept that. There should be a nice balance between work and play. And that varies for each person. Your definition of that “so-called balance” should match up with your partner’s definition. For some people–they can go years without taking a vacation due to work demands…and for others–they need to get away. It’s all about sitting down and having this conversation with your partner, and compromising, and finding out if you both are on the same page about work/life balance.

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  3. Zammo Says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  4. Paul Murray Says:

    Oh, for gender equity! If only one could suggest that women consider a guy who hasn’t sold his soul to his corporate masters for money!

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  5. India Says:

    I often turned down saws with men that I have no interest in with the excuse “sorry, have to work.”
    So if you hear that, one possibility is that the woman is a workaholic, or she lied and is actually on a date with someone else.
    Food for thought.

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  6. LostSailor Says:

    Well, the ladies aren’t happy, are they? Seems to happen when any woman’s choices are criticized, no matter what they are. The Menz are all just bitter and whiny.

    Ladies, it’s all about balance, and making time for what’s important in life.

    I’m going to read between the lines here: Here’s a guy that’s been dating a woman for 2 months. He likes her. A lot. Perhaps wants to have a real relationship with her. But she prioritizes work and makes little time in her life for anything else. He’s frustrated by this. She’s career oriented, not relationship oriented, even though she probably says that she really does want a relationship, only after she finishes this report. Oh, and this memo. Maybe we can do that thing you wanted to…after I finish this important spreadsheet. Sorry, honey, what were you saying? I have to prepare for this meeting tomorrow.

    I’ve seen this first-hand. My sister and I grew up sailing during the summer. A number of years ago, she and her husband bought a nice sailboat. But after the first year, they spent half the weekends on the boat at the dock, where she had wi-fi so she could work. They sold the boat in the end since they weren’t really sailing it.

    It’s all about your priorities. Relationships don’t necessarily take work, but they do take attention.

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    • Marshmallow Says:

      LS: I like the way you worded things and i do understand what the OP is saying. Trust me, women have the same issues too. When i was in my 20s, it wasn’t uncommon for the men i dated to work full time and go to grad school. It was really challenging to find time to date. And yes you wake up one day and you are in your 30s.

      But what are the women (and men) supposed to realistically DO? I don’t know anyone who only works a 40 hour week. The job market is just too competitive. No one wants it to be this way but it is.

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      • LostSailor Says:

        Like I said, it’s all about balance and priorities. No one is saying that men or women shouldn’t work. On a project deadline I’ve been known to work 13 hour days, seven days a week for a month or more. I had to give up nearly everything else during that period. But at least in my job, that’s not the norm. Though I still sometimes work on weekends. But I make it a point to prioritize my time outside work to maximize what’s important to me. Dating, too, is challenging and relationships need regular attention.

        We all have to work. But it often become a convenient excuse. If someone is tightly scheduled, but relationships are a priority, too, then make the relationship part of the schedule. Not overly romantic, maybe, but perhaps more realistic. At the very least it sends the clear signal that the relationship is important.

        But it’s not always a matter of having to work that hard, but choosing to work that hard. Then it’s a case of prioritizing career over relationships. For generations, women have been told that they should establish a career first, that there’s plenty of time for relationships and family. Unfortunately, it didn’t turn out so well for a lot of women. I trust you read the recent Atlantic article on why women can’t have it all. Good read.

        In the OP’s case, if she has made the choice to prioritize her career over relationships, he should probably move on, since he’ll always be a secondary priority. However, she may not even be aware that she’s made that choice until it’s too late. Yet another unintended consequence of 40 years of cultural change.

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        • fuzzilla Says:

          How does he know she’s not just prioritizing her career over a relationship *with him*? Regardless, if he’s not happy with the setup, then yes, he should move on (feeling the need to rant about how wrong she is = not moving on).

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      • Rick Says:

        If you’re having to work yourself to death just to live where ever it is you live, to the point you can’t have a normal relationship (male or female), then maybe it’s time to reconsider where you live and why. I figured out after 10 years of working 80 hour weeks that getting ahead is not worth it if it means giving up life. If that’s what one chooses, so be it, but don’t act as though one is helpless. we stay in the situations we find ourself by choice far more often than not.

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        • Eliza Says:

          Rick–some people have student loans, and mortgages–and some others just work in fields such as law, where initially–the demand is there to work very long hours. If you don’t–you are out of work. And there is a long line of candidates willing to fill in your shoes for that coveted position. That’s reality. The medical field is very much the same way. The key is to find that person who will be supportive, and understanding enough to be there for you…and vice versa. Trust me, nobody WANTS to or needs to work these hours–but it’s an employer’s market today–not about the employee. New York is super expensive…and yes, I would consider living elsewhere if I barely had personal time and quality of life.

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    • India Says:

      If my boyfriend is wealthy and did not need the second income for our apartment in NYC, I gladly give up my job and stay home and do yoga:)
      The same likely applies to your sister as well. She likely would love to sail all day and vacation all year – but what happens to her family and the kids if she does?

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      • LostSailor Says:

        Nah. My niece is grown and married, so “supporting the family” isn’t the issue. Being a workaholic and constantly remodeling her house is the issue there. She could easily scale back some or definitely switch jobs. But work has always been one of her top priorities.

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        • India Says:

          True that is sad for your family.
          Plenty of women would gladly live a more leisurely life and stay at home. Sadly for them, their families depend on them when the bills come.

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        • K Says:

          LS – It’s not your business, nor do you really know what’s going on in your sister’s life / marriage. Plus, how is this relevant? She’s married with a grown child, not in her 20s/30s and trying to date.

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          • LostSailor Says:

            Of course it’s my business; she’s my sister and we’ve always been close. I’m also quite close to her husband, so I actually know quite a bit more about what goes on in their marriage than i would like to. I merely cited it as an example of a woman who works far longer and harder than she needs to at the neglect of other parts of her life. I’ve talked with her about it many times over the years, but she has her priorities and has made her choices.

            Frankly, she was always like this, including her 20s and 30s. She had the “I can have it all” roadmap stuck firmly in her head, and made a number of very bad decisions when it came to men.

            Don’t get me wrong. She’s my sister and I love her. But loving her doesn’t mean I can’t acknowledge her poor choices. Looking back, even she does.

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            • India Says:

              Nonetheless, your sister got married and had kids.

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              • LostSailor Says:

                Well, yes. She had one child in her late 20s by a violent douche who she divorced. But he looked great on paper! Her focus on her career and the “I can have it all” roadmap produced a long string of very poor relationship choices, some disastrous, before she finally found a really good guy who wouldn’t put up with her crap. Fortunately they’ve been married over 20 years. She still works too much.

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                • Eliza Says:

                  LS-hey, at least your sister is passionate about something in her life…her life is meaningful to her–that’s great for her! It’s nice to be passionate about what you do.

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                  • LostSailor Says:

                    Actually, she hates it. She says she doesn’t want to work has hard as she does, but she seems unable to stop and perhaps afraid of change that switching jobs might bring. But she does like spending money…

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    • fuzzilla Says:

      Would a man ever in a million years tolerate a woman who lectured at him condescendingly about how he should and shouldn’t spend his time and what he should and shouldn’t do w/r/t to his career? No*? So why are women supposed to put up with that shit? Oh, those damn feminazis, wanting to be treated like human beings. The nerve. (*The answer might be yes, he’d consider her feedback – and she’d also do well to thoughtfully consider his feedback – IF they were looking at marriage and kids and the whole nine yards. At two months? Bitch, please).

      I guess, to be fair, the details in the situation painted are rather vague. As such, one can read what one wants into it.

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      • LostSailor Says:

        Oh, relax.

        I didn’t lecture, just made an observation of a pretty straightforward truth, and the OP was expressing other truths out of frustration. No one told you how to spend your time and live your life. But if you don’t prioritize your life, your life will do it for you.

        Many a man has put up with “you work too much, you don’t have time for meeee. And many a man has worked himself into an early grave to support a wife and family. Men put up with condescending lectures on what they should do all the time.

        Most men in the OPs situation would have just moved on. He’s frustrated because he cares. At 32, he’s very likely thinking about relationships, and even marriage and family.

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        • fuzzilla Says:

          No, the OP lectured and told women how to live their lives. You need to stop taking everything personally.

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          • LostSailor Says:

            Since your reply was to my comment, I assumed you intended to include me in your accusation. But both my comment and the OP seems to have touched a nerve…

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        • fuzzilla Says:

          Also, does a woman who doesn’t take the “he’s just not that into you” cues get the “she’s frustrated because she cares” pass? Or is she just generally dismissed as a crazy bitch? Since we only have minimal details, it’s possible that the woman did like him – she dated him two months, after all – but he sabotaged things by being demanding and unreasonable. It’s also possible she does work 80 hours a week and he was right to feel slighted by only briefly seeing her for coffee between appointments. It’s like a choose your own adventure story.

          Anyway, if the woman wanted to make him a priority, she would, and she didn’t. End of story.

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          • LostSailor Says:

            Arguing against your own assumptions is, I guess, exercise of a sort. You assume that “she’s just not that into him.” There is no indication that the relationship is over, especially because he says they’ve “hit a rough spot” so your past tense is out of place. You posit that he is demanding and unreasonable because….well, I don’t know. I’m guessing that since you have taken such umbrage at his post you are damning him without evidence.

            The only thing your correct about is that she is apparently not making the relationship a priority, though it’s hardly the end of the story.

            But still, I have to wonder where all this righteous indignation and anger are coming from…

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            • fuzzilla Says:

              **There is no indication that the relationship is over, especially because he says they’ve “hit a rough spot” so your past tense is out of place.**

              OK, mea culpa. I did read that wrong, then. Does that really matter much, though? Does one “rant” about a relationship one is happy with?

              **But still, I have to wonder where all this righteous indignation and anger are coming from…**

              From the assumption that he knows what’s best for all women. The fact that he can’t just say “I guess this gal and I want different things/maybe she’s not for me/maybe she’s not interested enough” and leave well enough alone. That he has to take the extra step of jumping on a soapbox and saying “women! U R Doin It Wrong.” That’s where it comes from.

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              • fuzzilla Says:

                In other words: Mansplaining. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mansplain

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                • LostSailor Says:

                  Ah yes. “Mansplaining.” I’ve been meaning to add a more correct definition to Urban Dictionary.:

                  Mansplaining, (v): the action of a man telling an uncomfortable truth that challenges feminist orthodoxy in the presence of a feminist; used by feminists to casually dismiss any statement, argument, or assertion by a man with which the feminist disagrees, obviating the need to critically engage the statement, argument, or assertion.

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                  • Selena Says:

                    LS,
                    I found his asserertion that only women in their 20’s have value – because of their looks – to be insulting to ALL women – even in those in their 20’s. ;) Not to mention his blythe ignorance regarding the economic disadvantages women have endured over the centuries they devoted to putting the man “first”.

                    I’m not unsympathic to the dude, but if he wants a woman who can/will spend more time with him…criminy! go choose one instead of getting on the internet with the self-serving insults. Maybe we should get out our hankies and wipe the snot off the poor boy’s face. Y’ah think?

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                    • Marshmallow Says:

                      Fine. Every guy over 30 is beating beautiful women in their 20s off him with a stick. If that’s the case, why are you all so angry? Grab a few of those women and go have a happy life.

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                    • M Says:

                      Reread my post. I never said only women in their 20s have value. What I said was that womens’ value to the opposite sex tends to decrease over time. Also, perhaps you should write your own post lecturing us on how the economies of several hundred years ago impact me today, because from what I see, everything is different from how it was in 1700, and none of that matters in todays society.

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                    • Nathan Says:

                      M – you sound like half of Americans: deeply ignorant of how history has shaped our current reality. You ever wonder where all this overworking came from? Ever considered how the development of capitalism combiNed with something called the Puritan work ethic might have led to some of the very problems you are frustrated with today? It used to be only men overworking outside of the home. Now it’s becoming an equal opportunity. affair. You want to know when things really started to shift in this direction?
                      The end of the 1700s. But hey, history doesn’t matter, right?

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                    • Zammo Says:

                      “Maybe we should get out our hankies and wipe the snot off the poor boy’s face. Y’ah think?”

                      ” Maybe they’re using “work” as an excuse not to see him ‘cuz he’s a whiny bitch.”

                      Love it.

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                    • D Says:

                      Says the person on the internet throwing out self-serving insults like free candy at a parade

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              • LostSailor Says:

                Frankly I don’t see where the OP ever, as you put it up-thread, ” lectured and told women how to live their lives.” He did point out some hard truths that have already been told on this site and many others. You really should read that Atlantic article I mentioned earlier if you have seen it yet.

                He does complain about women who seem to want a relationship, but prioritize work over those relationships. A valid complaint for men his age. And we’ve all heard numerous stories of women who establish themselves in their careers only to start to look for relationships in their mid-30s an lament about where all the good men have gone.

                Instead of righteous indignation that he dared to make observations that challenge women’s choice in this arena, perhaps consider that he might have a point…

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              • M Says:

                Some people need to go back and read the original post. I never told anyone how to live their lives. Also, let me make this clear:

                EVERYTHING I SAID APPLIES EQUALLY TO MEN (AND WOMEN).

                I just dont feel the need to tell men this because men either dont want the relationship, marriage, family track, or they already know this. We dont have someone over our shoulder our entire childhoods telling us we HAVE TO work REALLY HARD because our gender has to prove itself the way a lot of women seem to. But yes, if I met a man who complained that he wanted that but he was workig long hours and it was impacting his dating life, I’d tell him the exact same thing. Also, you may have missed the point where I said that Im a guy, I date girls and so I am only saying this from one point of view. I dont know if girls frequently run into the same issue with workaholic guys.

                Also, Lost Sailor, I’ve read the Atlantic article you are referring to, and its worth a read. Here’s a link in case anyone wants to check it out.

                http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/07/why-women-still-cant-have-it-all/309020/

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    • M Says:

      Wow. Spot on. Everything you said, even your judgements about my situation were exactly right. This is the point. The feminist revolution lied to women: you cant have it all, career and family. If you try, you usually end up half assing one or the other, sometimes both. So choose what you want and then own it.

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      • Angel Says:

        Bullshit. You can have it all. I do. My mom did. She has been married over 40 years to my dad. She always worked, and it was full time as long as I can remember. She had two kids, a great career, was making well over $200k at her peak, plus was involved in church stuff. Yeah, she got stressed out, but my dad was there for her. Her relationship took work, my brother had learning disabilities and needed lots of attention, but she dealt with it. We had babysitters. I cooked dinner (for allowance) when I was old enough. My dad cooked and cleaned also. Like, as much as she did. And he worked full time too. If that’s not having it all, what is? I know it’s possible because I saw it firsthand. So stop with the “you can’t” crap. It is not productive. Find a relationship that works for you and stop telling women what they can and can’t do.

        Oh, and my mom was in shape, dressed well, and looked great. Still does.

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        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          Sorry, have to agree with M. It’s almost physically impossible to have it all. There’s not enough time in the day. Something had to give, and it sounds like the compromises made had to do with her children. It’s extremely difficult to maintain a great career, great marriage and great family life all at once. Maybe your Mom focused her energies on each area at different times, but I can assure you that other areas suffered. Even couples where the wife stays home with the children and the husband works struggle to maintain their romantic relationship.

          If she had it all, she didn’t have it all at the same time.

          Not sure if you guys struggled financially and that’s why your mom worked. I’m also not sure how old you were when your mom was at work. From what you say, it sounds like your mom chose her career over her children.

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          • Angel Says:

            My mom didn’t choose her career over her children. She balanced both pretty well in my opinion. She worked full time but she and my dad were able to get some flex in their schedules. For example, there was a period where my dad got up real early and started work so he could be out early and be home in the afternoons. Or, for a while, he and I would walk downtown in the morning and meet up with a carpool of people from his work, and they’d drop me off at preschool on the way. And even though it was the 80s, they worked for a big computer company and could work from home a fair amount, dialed into a modem. My mom (or dad) was there when needed, but not in my face all the time. I am close with them now and we have Sunday dinner every week.
            As for their relationship, they worked hard on it and are in love and doing great. Seriously, they did the work. They didn’t neglect it or go elsewhere to get their needs met. If I didn’t truly believe my mom was able to have all that she wanted, I wouldn’t post this.

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            • Angel Says:

              Plus, who do you know that IS doing everything perfectly all the time. Do you? It’s not realistic, whether you are male or female or what point you’re at in life. You balance, you make progress, you make it work. That’s having it all. If everything wasn’t a perfect ten at all times, that doesn’t mean she didn’t have a successful career, relationship, and family. The proof is she has a great strong marriage, enough money for a fun retirement, and kids who are happy and come over to hang out. What more would she want?

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              • Nathan Says:

                Blaming feminism is such a cheap, simplistic copout. The desire to have it all is really about the whole story of our nation. Its always been about being the biggest and the best at everything. Doesn’t surprise me one bit that so many think they can have it all without sacrificing anything.

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                • Cee Says:

                  You may just bThe most woefully pathetic, castrated, captain save-a-hoe mangina I’ve come across as of late. 

                  Nathan, sorry to break it to you and your naïveté, but women will not give you sex just because your nose is up their ass. Women only recoil from and friend-zone the parodies of “men” like you.

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                  • nathan Says:

                    Judging from your other comments, sounds like you’re the one who is not getting any. Jackass behavior tends to repel most women, in case you haven’t noticed.

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                    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                      FYI….Cee is a woman.

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                    • nathan Says:

                      Wait, I see you’re a woman. Well, jackass behavior also tends to repel men. The way you toss around insults, I doubt anyone of any gender is going to want to be around your ass.

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                    • india Says:

                      It is telling that your initial assumption towards Cee was the writer was a male. There is a lot of masculine energy coming from her comments:

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                  • India Says:

                    Cee, hate to break it to you. You sound like you have your nose up what you think men want to. I actually find nathan’s comments quite enlightening and balanced. You attacking him with such a low blow – not feminine and not what men generally look for.

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                    • Cee Says:

                      Hahaha You thought that was an insult?

                      Lady, that was the truth. And *of course* you find Nathan enlightening as he is the guardian of your ego-invested beliefs. But I would reckon you won’t find him enlightening enough to have sex with him and fall asleep on his man-boobed chest..

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                    • Nathan Says:

                      Seems like all you have are insults Cee. Not a terribly impressive demonstration of enlightened wisdom from a 23 year old who thinks she knows more than 3/4 of the commenters here. You really must miss it how you look like one of those high school princesses that talks shit about everyone else to feel better about herself.

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              • D Says:

                You just made the case against your own point. It’s not realistic.

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        • LostSailor Says:

          So stop with the “you can’t” crap. It is not productive. Find a relationship that works for you and stop telling women what they can and can’t do.

          I’ll take your story at face value and assume every word is true. Congratulations, you’re family is one in a million. I’ll admit, it can happen, but it usually takes a lot of sacrifice.

          But to say the “you can’t have it all” is crap is…well, crap. Most people, especially women focused on high-value careers, aren’t willing to make the sacrifice, or other people suffer the consequences and make the necessary sacrifices.

          “Find a relationship that works for you” is just facile BS. The whole point of this site is a lot of people can’t find a relationship that works even in the short term period. No one is telling women what they can or cannot do. Just recognize the consequences of the decisions you make, either consciously or unconsciously.

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          • Angel Says:

            LS, maybe many find they can’t balance everything, but my mom did so I know it’s possible. And, again, the “consequences” of her decisions would seem to be a loving, supportive marriage, a solid financial situation, and kids who respect her and are around regularly. She had a fulfilling career AND a fulfilling marriage AND kids she’s proud of.

            Also, what might be unusual here is that my DAD was willing to share the household responsibilities, which took some pressure off there. I get the sense a lot of men wouldn’t do that.

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            • Zammo Says:

              Ah yes, the random sample of one. What a fine and dandy way to use logic and reason. Did you know that I once had a Volvo automobile that was always breaking down? I guess all Volvo automobiles are shit. Every. Single. One.

              How’s that for some snarky mansplaining?

              Seriously, this propaganda of “having it all” really needs to stop. It’s ruining lives, relationships, and kids.

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            • Cee Says:

              As a woman, I’m often embarrassed by my gender’s lack of ability to grasp the concept of averages. The point is and remains, despite how long you stamp your feet, that you (generally) cannot have it all.

              Your mom may have “had it all,” but respect logic and reasoning enough to understand her experiences are in the minority and not the outcome most women have when they prioritize their career above all else.

              I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. A couple generations have to watch all these careerist women die alone and unloved with their cats and professional degrees for society to stop dismissing the role of biology in our lives.

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              • K Says:

                Bitch, I’m a market researcher and I think I “grasp the concept of averages.” What does “the concept of averages” (whatever you think that is) have to do with this topic? Several men on this thread stated that women “can’t have it all,” and an example was given of a woman who arguably did “have it all,” or at least everything she wanted to have. If one woman was able to do it, with the help of a supportive husband, others can too. Many may not want to, and that’s fine. But if they want to, and they have picked a life partner who will share household duties with them, they can balance kids, relationship, and family, and come out successful.

                Also, didn’t you state previously that you are 23? Your ridiculously over the top bitter commentary doesn’t mean much without life experience to back it up.

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                • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                  What does “the concept of averages” (whatever you think that is) have to do with this topic?

                  It means that citing one isolated example (i.e. Angel basing her belief that all women can have it all because her Mom did) as proof that something works or exists across the board is naive or inaccurate at best, ignorant at worst. You don’t have to be a certain age to understand that concept.

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                • LostSailor Says:

                  If “concept of averages” doesn’t work for you, your comment is a fine example of the Apex Fallacy.

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                  • India Says:

                    Ls, you were just citing the extreme example of your sister for like 20 comments on this thread. I would not throw stones

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                • Cee Says:

                  You mad.

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  7. jaclyn Says:

    I was able to work at a career that did not require me to put in a huge number of hours, and I was able to make dating a priority. And guess what I found in my 20s? That the men close to my age were immature and not even close to getting married. I dated a med student who didn’t feel that he could get married and support a family until he finished med school, his residency and a specialized training in his chosen field. Unless a woman is willing to date a guy a lot older than she is, it is unlikely in her early/mid 20s she will find a guy ready to get married in Manhattan.

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  8. Selena Says:

    M, if someone isn’t making you a priority the most likely explanation is not their work, it’s that you are not that “special person” to them. And expecting to be that “special person” after only two months of dating seems a trifle unrealistic to me.

    As far as women in their 20’s choosing a “good, solid, meaningful relationship” over working hard to advance in a career. Many, many, many women have done that. Only to find themselves single again in their 30’s, 40’s, 50’s and beyond. With less marketable skills and work experience to support themselves and their children to the extent they would wish. The overwhelming majority did not marry wealthy and/or high earners when they were 20- something and so do not receive adequate income in the form of child and spousal support. In fact, some can’t count on even modest child support because the “good, solid, meaningful relationship” they made a priority turned out to be with a man who later proved himself to be selfish and perhaps somewhat shiftless. Some women WANT to work. Some wouldn’t stay in their jobs if they didn’t HAVE to support themselves. For the majority I’ll venture it’s a rather a bit of both – they don’t hate their job, need the income, would still want some type of work out of the home even if they didn’t need the income.

    I don’t live in NYC. Most people I know don’t routinely work more than 40 hours a week. Many I know work for companies who will only schedule employees for less than 40 hours so they can escape paying them benefits, such as health insurance. If you desire a girlfriend/potential partner who doesn’t want or have to work so much, consider who your target pool might be: School teachers? Retail sales associates? Women who work in the medical field who aren’t required to be “on call”? Those who work in service industries such as hair styling, restaurant servers & bartenders, animal groomers, libraries? How about lower level office workers? Receptionists, data entry clerks?

    Are you getting the point M? There are PLENTY of women who work in fields that don’t require mandatory overtime. YOU are apparently choosing women in jobs/fields that require much more dedication. Stop blaming women who don’t have the time you require from them and starting thinking about finding the kind of women who might.

    Good luck. And please, lose the scarcity mindset when it comes to ageing. You are 32…that’s still young, but only 3 years away from the start of middle age. Believe me when I tell you, time passes faster and faster which each decade – you’re going to be shocked to find yourself 40-something and then 50-something, etc. And the 20-something girls you’re complaining about now? You’re practically invisible to them. Be kind M. You’ll see.

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    • K Says:

      Nice response to this asinine post, Selena!

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    • Adrienne Says:

      Selena, excellent response. I can’t tell you how many of my female friends chose the “safe, man with a job route,” in their 20s but are now divorced, and have years of a hole in their resumes and can’t get back into the workforce to support themselves and/or children.

      I’m not suggesting at all that women should work themselves into the ground and neglect their relationships, but my mother always told me that a woman should have her own job and money in case something happened, and she was right.

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      • Selena Says:

        My grandmother told her daughters and granddaughters the same thing.

        My grandmother grew up on a small farm with two older brothers. Her parents saved money for the brother’s to go to college. They didn’t want to. So they sent her to college to become a teacher. She did and met and married a med student. He did his residency in Boston. At the time, Boston wouldn’t hire married teachers (expecting them to leave for pregnancy) – so she took a job selling gloves in a department store to support her and her husband while he finished his training. After he got his degree they moved to a small city in the Midwest and he opened a pediactric practice. This was during the depression in the 1930’s and money for the doctor was hard to come by for many folks. My grandmother told me her husband treated children for free, and there were parents who paid him with chickens during that hard time.

        He died of cancer when she was only 46, leaving her with 3 children , no income and no life insurance. She went to work as a teacher to support her family. Later, she helped some of her grandchildren through college. (One being me.) And drilled into me, you need to have something to fall back on, because you don’t know what the future will be.

        Life absolutely holds no guarantees.

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        • Eliza Says:

          Great story–and probably common place for many women – who found themselves – with NOTHING. Why? Because they didn’t have an education or career to fall back on. It’s a tough balance–but it can be done. And it’s obviously easier when you do find that person that is truly supportive of your goals.

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      • Eliza Says:

        Adrienne–and your mother was right saying so…and today-a mere “job” is not enough–you need a career, a specialized training or degree. Otherwise-you are really scraping to get by – as a store clerk, retail position, or other position that will accept you working 40 hours or less a week. A reasonable man will find a woman who work hards to be an asset rather than bitch and cry like some little girl about how little tiime a woman has – especially after a mere 2 months???

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      • M Says:

        Of course, having your own job and money can keep you from developing a relationship, if it prevents you from putting in the required effort because you are at all times ready to jump ship the second things dont work out just right.

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    • Eliza Says:

      Selena–The bottom line is: for those women, who are not employed in positions where there is a demand for long hours, i.e., lower-paying field perhaps–and for those of us that may be employed as part-time – or less than 40 hours because these nasty firms don’t want to pay benefits–guess what? Those people probably have to secure an additional position – to pay for benefits on their own, and make ends meet. If you are single, it’s tough, when you are a school teacher, a data entry clerk, and carrying the entire household burden. Women in this situation have to sustain themselves – pay their fixed living expenses. Some have to bartend at night, while they attend school. Unless you are some primadonna, where daddy pays all your tuition, and credit card bills and living expenses. Dating a “primadonna” brings a host of other issues…like self entitlement, and a demanding nature. Does a man want to deal with that? Though not! The alternative, is a hard-working woman. Geez. Men these days are hard to please.

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      • M Says:

        So basically, you are saying there are 3 types of women in the world:
        1. Career women who work long hours
        2. Women in lower paying jobs who have multiple jobs to get by, and as a result, work long hours
        3. Women who let daddy pay for everything

        You forgot this one:
        4. Women who have one job that does not put unreasonable time demands on them, and pays them and amount they can afford to live on

        #4 is not the smallest of these.

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        • Eliza Says:

          M-women who are in category “4” – as you put it – may not get to this place – until they are established in their chosen careers. And that usually doesn’t occur in their 20’s – when they 4are “their most valuable and attractive selves”–again AS YOU PUT IT. I happen to see plenty of women in their 30’s and even 40’s – who are beautiful AND have successful careers-and in their 30’s, having children is STILL reasonable and physically unhindered…less so in your 40’s—but it has also been done. The first 3 categories above DO exist. I have seen it time and time again. You also have career women who work long hours–and still don’t earn a windfall–based on their careers (e.g., social workers). What I have repeatedly stated – which you don’t seem to comprehend is: that TODAY – with unemployment rates as high as they are–the employers are that much more demanding of workers – which includes men too. They frown upon those people who run out of the office with 40 hour work weeks, if there is a project that requires their attention past their required work schedule. By the way–there is also a category of women that have all the free time in the world….and they are unemployed–and looking to grab onto any man–due to hardship. Date one of those women! LOL

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        • Mimi Says:

          M you can easily find the woman type no. 4 in traditional cultures such as in Asia or Latin America. where they still value family n husband on top of their career. Men like you in where I’m coming from are the majority, who wants the wife not to focus too much on their career. They are not uneducated, in fact many are gone to abroad to study but the difference is that they don’t have the same ambitions as women in western culture.

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      • Nathan Says:

        Eliza, I tend to think people are hard to please these days. Reading dating blogs on a regular basis has made it abundantly clear to me that plenty of men and women out there are so hung up on superficial nonsense, or have entirely too long of a list they expect someone to fit into to actually have something called a successful relationship.

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    • M Says:

      Once again, I suggest you go reread the original post. I dont expect someone Ive dated for just 2 months to automatically dedicate their life to dating me. You do get one of my points though, as you stated it in your last paragraph. Time does pass faster the older you get. That’s precisely the reason why what I said stands. Also, I dont know how it is where you are, but in my city, well, let’s just say that most people my age were married by the time I moved here at the age of 29.

      As for dating someone in a less demanding occupation, hey, it sounds great. I’ve often thought a teacher would be an ideal occupation for a potential girlfriend for me. But at the end of the day, you have to take what you can get.

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      • Selena Says:

        Is that the real problem M, you are 32 living in a town where most people your age are married and only over-worked single women are left?

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        • M Says:

          No, its more than that. Its also that the city where I used to live was full of career oriented women, and as a result, I lived there for 2 1/2 years before I met just 1 person my age who was married. So I wonder is this all there is?

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          • Eliza Says:

            M–you need to move! lol. You can’t seem to wrap your head around the fact that the role of women in the work place and the demands put on women today have changed so drastically–so has the idea of “marriage”…with divorce rates so high…women are encouraged to secure a profession allowing them to live on their own, whether they choose to stay single, have no luck in finding a partner, or end up as a single mother due to divorce down the road. What’s a woman to do? Not establish herself – in hopes that Prince Charming will come – and live happily ever after? There are no guarantees–even in “NotNewYork”! LOL

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  9. Carlos Nunez Says:

    Let’s flip this question around:

    Should A *Man* Choose Love Over A Career?
    Should *Anyone* Choose Love Over A Career?
    Should anyone choose love over **?
    Should anyone choose ** over love?
    Should anyone choose love over *pizza*?
    Should anyone choose *pizza* over love?

    I think it’s pretty easy to see that while the easy answer to any of these questions is ‘you idiot, of course not!’ (save for the last two, I hope), the most reasonable answer is ‘there should be balance, not choosing.’

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  10. nathan Says:

    I think far too many people these days prioritize climbing the ladder over their relationships – men and women. It’s one thing to work hard to have a decent house, healthy food, some money for a vacation, etc. but quite another to work excessively so that you can always have the latest, greatest flat screen TV, video game system, car, boat, or whatever possession is your flavor of the month. Although it’s fair to say that some employers are over the top in their demands of employees, it’s also true that plenty of employees say yes to extra work because they want the extra money to buy new toys with, and/or think that saying yes automatically will help them get a promotion (which isn’t true). So, I think the OP’s general call for more balance is worth considering.

    However, the OP’s focus on age is quite flawed. People meet each other and have successful relationships at all stages of life. The challenges are different at each stage, and the older you get, the more likely it is that you’ll have a smaller pool of choices.

    Furthermore, the OP’s time frame is so pressured and tight that I have to wonder if he’s trying to rush things with the women he’s dating. Rushing usually brings push back buddy. Expecting a woman to drop all of her career focus for you after too months is really unrealistic. Would you do the same for a woman after two months if you had job you were successful at?

    Slow down and stop expecting it all to fall into place right away. And if you really are into this woman you’re dating, make a small request for more time. And for God’s sake, don’t frame it as “You work too much!” Frame it as you really like her, and want a bit more time together during the week.

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    • M Says:

      Reread the last paragraph in the OP. I never mention a time frame and I specifically said I dont expect her to drop her career focus. When I said I expect at some point to move above her job on her list of priorities, I meant like, about the time we would get married, maybe even a little after; certainly not any time soon.

      As for the age thing, you say you disagree, but you reaffirmed my main point. In your own words:

      “The older you get, the more likely it is that you’ll have a smaller pool of choices.” Which of course makes it harder to find someone, etc.

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      • Nathan Says:

        The pool shrinks for most men too. Most 40 and 50 something single guys aren’t attracting the hot 20 something women they might be lusting after. Some are lucky if the women in their age bracket are even interested.

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        • Eliza Says:

          Nathan–the only reason “some” 20 year old attractive women “may” be interested in some 40-50 year old – is if they see “opportunity financially” in that type of arrangement. Face it, there are plenty fo pretty women in their 20’s–that need a financial boost/support, to fund their educations, and pursue their occupations of choice. Yet, they can’t do it alone…so they cling onto a 40 or 50 something year old man that will finance it for them. So – yes–a man that age can “pay to be with a hot 20 something year old woman”. And you now see more and more situations that are reversed…young good looking men dating much older women – who are financially established. There is an underlying motive there. That’s reality.

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  11. CK Says:

    Re the importance of women in the workforce and the obvious implication (that work will have to become an increasingly important part of more women’s lives): http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/opinion/brooks-why-men-fail.html

    Re men’s biological clocks: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/23/health/fathers-age-is-linked-to-risk-of-autism-and-schizophrenia.html

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  12. Laura Says:

    All I want to say is, who the F works 40 hours a week or less???

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    • myself Says:

      You know, I think it all depends on what your priorities are, as well as what your job is/who you work for. I work more than my sig other does. But we have completely different jobs. He’s a manager for a huge corp in the head office, I’m a branch manager for a huge worldwide corp, but small local office, hence, the buck stops with me (whereas the BF has a manager and a director above him). I work evenings/weekends periodically and can get called in, really unlikely this would happen to him.

      Similar salaries.

      Am I supposed to not do that job? It’s the one I had when we met, I worked myself up to, and while our industries are related, one is aerospace and the other is transport. Transport I’m putting in more hours, period, that’s the way it is. I’m happy, he’s happy, it allows him to go watch Monday night football without me bitching.

      What’s the problem here, really?

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      • fuzzilla Says:

        >What’s the problem here, really?<

        The OP failing to own his shit and making blanket statements about women instead.

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      • M Says:

        You managed to beat the odds. You both work long hours, yet you made time for dating, and you are now reaping the rewards. Congrats. Many others will fail where you succeeded.

        For you, its not a problem. But it is for all those with failed relationships caused by pressures or requirements coming from one or the other’s job(s).

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        • myself Says:

          I think it’s because we’re not joined at the hip frankly, not dependent on each other’s every breath.

          He’s got his stuff, I have mine, we meet in the middle (or in bed). I think that’s pretty damned key frankly.

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    • Selena Says:

      “All I want to say is, who the F works 40 hours a week or less???”

      Hmm…Most of the workers in the US who make less money than you do?

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    • Eliza Says:

      Laura–thank you! Even if you are not an attorney…say, just an assitant…you are expected to be there – for the attorney easily clocking 60+ hours a week….and if you are not…you are replaced. That simply put. And for those who DO work less than 40 hours a week…they probably have to secure an second job elsewhere–because they are only being afforded a part-time position because these shameless employers don’t want to pay benefits–and thus, hire people on a part-time basis.
      The OP needs to wake up-and watch the news. Unemployment is high–everywhere. It’s a luxury to leave an office by 5pm or 5:30pm these days.

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  13. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    While I don’t agree that a job is easier than a relationship to replace, I do agree that women have bought into the fallacy that they can focus on their careers for as long as they like without compromising their relationship prospects. They can’t. I’m guessing why that’s why so many women are so up in arms about this post.

    The reality is that, when a man decides he’s ready to settle down and have kids, the woman who works 50+ hours a week and takes work home with her is not going to be his first choice.

    This is about choices and consequences. Actions have consequences. If a woman chooses to make her career a priority, she *will* end up compromising her ability to have a sustainable relationship. Since women find an “ambitious’ and “driven” guy so attractive, they’re more likely to find his heavy work schedule a plus.Unfortunately, the same can’t be said for men.

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    • Zammo Says:

      Is it time to bring up the “F” word?

      Fertility

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      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Depends. Do you want to see Fuzzilla’s head explode?

        Jesus. Ladies, time to face reality. You need to make a choice. You want to work 60 hours a week? Or even 50? Go ahead. Just do it with the understanding that there are men all over the world who work the same hours and manage to marry at 30, 35, 40 years of age. Also wake up and realize that most of those friends of yours who say that they “don’t have time for a relationship” totally have time for a relationship. They’re just using their work as an excuse to explain why they never seem to be dating anybody. If you want something badly enough, you make time for it. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you don’t get to put off having a relationship and then wake up and say, ‘Ok, world, I’m ready!” That’s swell. Too bad you’re 35, 37, or even 40 and think the world has stopped spinning on its axis while you got ready to date.

        The only time men use the “I don’t have time for a relationship” excuse is when they’re dating someone they no longer want to date any more. Which I;m guessing is what is going on in M’s case. I think the women were using their jobs as an excuse to break things off.

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    • K Says:

      I don’t think anyone thinks they can focus (entirely) on their career as long as they like and not compromise their relationship status.

      Anyone?

      I think women get that if they choose to be a workaholic and focus just on that, it’s going to be hard to have a good relationship. Just like if we focus only on marriage and family, we may find ourselves without any decent job prospects.

      Where is this fallacy coming from and who’s buying into it? Who would disagree that it’s best to find some balance?

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      • Selena Says:

        Work/life balance is entirely possible. And it’s dependent apon the type of work and type of life one chooses.

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        • Eliza Says:

          The truth is – with divorce rates so high–a smart woman these days–has to be able to fall back on a position/career path that can sustain her – AND possibly her children…moreso – if she ends up marrying a man that is a deadbeat dad or irresponsible. You never know what life wlil bring your way. Nothing is a guarantee. So – yes, today woman face more demands to work. Just by the mere idea of being married, a woman doesn’t necessarily have that luxury of staying home. Some men don’t earn very high salaries, and thus, any affordable home and children, etc – require 2 incomes. It’s a partnership. Plenty of single mothers out there. It’s reality folks.

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          • LostSailor Says:

            It seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Most divorces are initiated by women, and most collect significant resources from men as a result.

            And the reason most families require two incomes to survive? Since the early 1970s, the pool of available labor has nearly doubled, driving down real wages.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 9

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            • Selena Says:

              “Since the early 1970s, the pool of available labor has nearly doubled, driving down real wages.”

              This is a curious statement. What would happen if all the women in the workforce quit today? There wouldn’t be enough men to take over those vacancies. Or men who would necessarily want to go into traditionally female dominated positions.

              During WWII women were recruited to take over jobs formerly occupied by men when they went overseas. As well as fill new jobs created to supply the military. When the men came home, those women were expected, if not forced, to give up those jobs. Seems to me if most women work outside the home, it’s because the job market expanded and needed them to fill the positions.

              There has been considerable downsizing in companies in recent years, but I haven’t heard of significant wage increases because businesses are using fewer employees.

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    • Eliza Says:

      Moxie–I fully agree with these. But it’s truly unreasonable to expect a woman to be completely “supportive” when it comes to her partner’s responsibilities at work, yet not reciprocate that level of support – when a woman is working at sustaining her credibility at work. Yes, there should be a balance…and I don’t agree with a woman barely spending time away from work. But some industries/careers initially do expect one to work very long hours. And if 2 people truly care for each other–they will make it work. Unfortunately, today the employers has managed to exploit employees, because they know it’s “their market”…to pick and choose, and make unreasonable demands in terms of hours required from them.

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    • M Says:

      You’re 100% right Moxie. And to take it a little further, most men dont care too much about what a woman does for a living. With that being the case, we arent as willing to accept longer hours to get a partner in the “right” occupation. Women may find certain men more desirable because of their job, but for the most part, I dont think the opposite is true.

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  14. Kay Says:

    I’m currently in this position. I spent the last 10 years busting my ass in a career and putting work first only to now be without a job, kids, and family. My boyfriend of 9 months thinks that now, I can focus on us, and build a solid foundation for our relationship. He is 13 years older (44), has a successful career and is ready to settle down and start building a life with me. He fully expects me to give up on establishing a career and settle into the role of wife and mother.

    This great for him, he’s spent the last 12 years developing his career and gaining success. But now that’s he’s ready to settle down, taking the time to work on and develop my career seems trivial to him. It was okay for him to take that time and make his job a priority but now that he’s succeeded and is on a schedule to start a family, my priorities should change to accommodate his.

    What are women supposed to do in their ‘prime’? How will our bills get paid when we put our careers in the back seat? Do we take jobs that pay just enough to get by (which by the way requires at least 40 hours these days) while we wait for Prince Charming to rescue us? Do we immediately shift our careers into the #2 spot once we start dating, in hopes that THIS guy could be the one? Most households still require two income and I think the more successful you are in your career, the more flexible your schedule can be.

    Like jobs, relationships are not guarantee, you can spend years building them only to lose them in an instant. If establishing a family is more important to a woman than a career, then she may choose a less demanding career and/or find more ways to make dating a priority. People make time for what’s important to them, if they’re coming up with excuses and not making time for you, take that as a sign of your significance in their lives.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 3

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    • Eliza Says:

      Thank you Kay. Think about it…even if you are teacher…some people have student loans mounting….day by day–and once you graduate–and HOPEFULLY find work as a teacher – at a whopping $35K annual salary–you are expected to start paying back those student loans for grad. school! What is a woman to do. And that’s a field – where you can work less than 50 hours a week.
      Today, the demands from employers are unreasonable, but one has to do to put food on the table, and meet fixed expenses. The OP shouldn’t fault a woman for being responsible like this, and building/establishing a nest egg and career for herself. That’s a good quality. There is no “Prince Charming”…same goes for those of us, that may not buy a home for ourselves…”until we meet THE ONE”….forget that…start living NOW…on your own, love your life, and if it’s mean to be – LOVE will enter your life. Bottom line is…when you love what you do for work–and are not merely working “a job”–but are going after what you truly love and are passionate about–you are a happier person, and a person a man WANTS to be around.

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  15. joe-f Says:

    I agree that there are women who go overboard with their careers but to claim a majority is, is short-sighted. You will meet the workaholics, the ones who prefer working than dating you, the ones who are only superficially interested in you or dating, move on. Don’t dwell on it.

    Both my wife and I are workaholics. We have a lot to talk about at the end of the day. I help her with the cooking, cleaning, diaper duty when that time comes, etc. Her job is my job and vice versa. Compared to the girlfriends who waited for me, I love her. She doesn’t need me to occupy her time. i can go out with the guys without worrying about what she will do. Added bonus, she makes good money, which allow us to live a higher standard of living and emergency expenses if I am laid off.

    With that said, my wife is totally dedicated to me. I am always first priority and vice versa. We spend almost 100% of our free time together, which is enough for me.

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  16. Trouble Says:

    It’s funny how complicated people seem to make it. I think it can be challenging at times, but my kids have done as well educationally and socially as the kids we know who had stay at home mothers. My husband loves the fact that i’m passionate about my job (and I appreciate the fact that he loves being in the Navy reserves). I accept the fact that he’s gone on reserve duty and training for about 2 months out of the year, and he accepts that I travel for work. True, you can’t have everything, but lots of people make marriage, kids and two careers work okay. I mean, the majority of mothers in the U.S. work.

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  17. Todd Says:

    People seem to forget that we live in a free country and that whatever they do with their life is by choice which includes marriage, family, career, education, lifestyle, etc…

    I’m tired of listening to men complain about young women not wanting to get settle down and put careers first and older women complaining that there are no good men left out there wanting to marry them later on. Here’s a news flash to those complaining, maybe you’re not that attractive or your expectations are simply too high? There are plenty of people out there looking for the same thing you are and whatever your age is., and this goes for both men and women. Having trouble finding a mate? Improve yourself. Or don’t.

    Everyone needs a little tough love sometimes.

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  18. loveliee Says:

    If someone is genuinely interested in you, they’ll find time for you no matter how many hours a week they work. Work is nothing more than a cop out. I should know, I’ve used it as an excuse plenty of times in the past, and I literally work 18 hours a week (I’m a senior in college, don’t judge me). My guess? She’s just not that into you.

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    • fuzzilla Says:

      >She’s just not that into you.<

      Seriously! Dollars to donuts, Moxie would have said exactly what you did (minus personal details) if a woman had written in. Everyone would agree and there'd be like five comments in the thread.

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  19. Marshmallow Says:

    The discussions on this thread are really interesting. A lot of people – men and women – are frustrated by the reality of life today. I feel very sorry for the young adults who are graduating college with massive debt and few job prospects.

    But the one thing I’ve learned from reading this column is this – it’s always something. Our dating prospects are limited by any number of factors: age, appearance, religion, race, health, children, finances. This is what makes it so hard.

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  20. Mandy Says:

    Some people are just needier than others when it comes to a relationship. A lot of people work 60-hour weeks, have hobbies, go to the gym, AND have a satisfying and fulfilling relationship. Well, satisfying and fulfilling to them. Not everyone needs to be done with work at 5pm in order to spend every evening, and all weekend, with their significant other. To some people, that sounds like hell. Everyone’s definition of a relationship is different. If your definition requires spending substantial time together during the week and all weekend, then you should date people who also have this understanding. Don’t date someone who finds daily texts, weekly dinners, and 2x/week overnights to be fully sufficient to maintain a relationship because you’ll never be happy. But don’t say that no one should be working those hours because it’s impossible to have a relationship–it’s just impossible to have a relationship with YOU.

    I worked 40+ hours/week while also a full-time PhD student through my late 20’s, while also starting a relationship with a man I’m still with. It worked just fine for us, because neither of us are needy when it comes to a relationship. It never worked with a man like the OP, who clearly demands much more time of the person he’s dating. In my relationship, we respect each other enough to not demand to be first priority over other things just for the sake of it. Yes, dinner with my boyfriend is not more important to me than a major deadline at work. That’s just the way it is. We can have dinner tomorrow, but I can’t change the deadline! We recently had to cancel my birthday dinner because he had a great job interview get rescheduled for the morning after. I was fine with that. He made up for it later. I can’t imagine demanding I came first, at the expense of something like that.

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  21. Tandava Says:

    Sounds like the OP is looking for a mommy, not a life partner.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 6

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    • M Says:

      Yeah, right. Partner = mommy. Did I say anything about my wanting my partner to take care of me? No. Shows how much you know.

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      • Eliza Says:

        M-what if, say your girlfriend did work 40 hours a week, however, had a hobby – or enjoyed going to the gym consistently–or had a goal, like running the NYC marathon – which requires training – would you still be annoyed by her inability to be at 2 places at once…unless you run along with her, or workout with her? The point I am making is – some people have interests outside of work–and outside of their relationships – which make them feel great. Why not be supportive of that?

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        • M Says:

          I dont have a problem with that. If I had a girlfriend who was as you describe, I would be supportive of her going to the gym, training for a marathon or whatever. Its something she enjoys, and it gets her out of the office. She is getting something out of it, and that’s where the value is, unlike working longer hours, where only the company benefits (and the company probably doesnt pass on any benefits to her).

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  22. Drama Says:

    So i’m a little late and I’ve never even read this site before but someone linked here.

    It’s remarkable how few people get it.

    The women sure are confident. They seem to know everything, though let’s ignore the fact that they often invalidate their own arguments at least a few comments later.

    They can have anything they want apparently. A career, fun, and love, but if they don’t have one it’s because they chose not to and aren’t interested in it all whatsoever. That’s right she never not even once thought of meeting someone and settling down and certainly not if it meant she had to lower her expectations, or more appropriately demands. After all, she deserves it. She’s a one of a kind career gal who works hard and gets what she wants.

    Face it ladies you can’t have it all, all the time, all the way. Go ahead and try but I’ll be the one waiting to say I told you so when you’re looking around in 10-20 years looking for something of substance or real(not monetary) value in your life. Putting it that way, it makes me think of prison and that’s just what your life is if you put your career first(man or woman), 10, 20, 30, 40+ years toiling away in some pitiful little cell/cubicle just plugging away, crossing the days off the calender til you get out. And for what? So you can go home to your designer furnished condo/flat/house, park your lexus in the garage, check your points to see what you can eat for dinner, and settle down in bed with a bottle of merlot, sex and the city on tv but not so loud as to distract you from your TPS reports, with your cat curled up next to you?

    Go ahead and take it, but I for one am getting out while I can(I’m a guy by the way). I went to college and could bust my hump to buy the same new suburban house as everyone else in the ideally identical suburbs we call success and have a new BMW(because I love Munich) in the garage and buy maybe I’ll even be lucky enough to have a wife, I mean patriarchy oppressed female slave, to pop out a few kids for me so I can plunk down a few billable hours worth of work so they can grow up to think i’m a pud cause i made them wait almost a year to get the newest idouche gadget. A few years later I can gleefully send them off to college at 30k a year each to learn how Chilean mothers carried their babies around in baskets because they were patriarchly oppressed even before the white man showed up.”You say, they were just trying to survive? No, that’s a preposterous and racist assertion you fail the course”.

    Or I could take the course I’m presently embarking on. Say F the system, work my ass off in a legit job that actually accomplished something, buy and restore an old car for a fraction of the price of a new luxury car while also engaging in a hobby and living on a piece of land large enough to tend also just for the hell of it. And if I happen to enshare a female love slave into this scheme and limit her abuse(cause we know no man can resist) so she can still bear children I might just happen to raise them as good old fashioned human beings who don’t take guilt from things they had nothing to do with and simply live by the maxim of you get what you put in.

    I wish I could end with that incredible piece of literature but I coudn’t manage to fit a few things in so I’ll add them now.

    Ladies so many of your arguments are shakier than the houses of the first two pigs. They get blown down so you run to your brothers(sisters?) brick house with it’s solidly irrefutable arguments of the one in a million perfect female success story. I can play that game too, it’s a real life example too so we all know his name. Tom Brady. Your mom/sister/aunt/whoever had it all why can’t you? Well arguably Tom Brady has it all, so why can’t all men? Because all men are not Tom Brady and you are not your mother.
    You’re not better than your mother(^), you’re not worse than your mother(^), you’re simply yourself. Not special, but unique, different, their called circumstances and we all have them.

    The last point I want to address is the this idea that you have to put in 60 hours of work each week or your career will whither. If everyone who used that argument agreed not to work extra like that, you’d find you wouldn’t have to. Shocked, I know it’s groundbreaking stuff. You’re so busy working extra that you don’t even realize why you do it anymore. What’s the point of increasing the quality of life by making extra money, when you don’t have anytime to enjoy the difference that it brings you?

    Oh I forgot you live in New York City. It’s cutthroat, dog eat dog, kill or be killed, snapping necks and cashing checks is the name of the game. Let me share with you a little secret that’s really not that big of a secret. You can do that same job in any other city. Sure you might have to temper your ego from not being amongst the high-rollers in the big apple, but guess what you never were one anyway, and even if you became one it doesn’t matter when you die. We’re all replaceable and nothing but fancy worm food in the end.

    What’s the point of the extra money and “fame”/recognition/accomplishment of being in New York really worth? Nothing. Literally, the money’s worth nothing cause the cost of everything is equally high. There goes that line of thinking. Oh, but success, achievement, proving myself. Worth as much as dog poop on my shoe. How many people in New York get to even be the top 2% in their fields? 2% that’s how many, which means 98% of people aren’t in that group. And of that 2% how many do you think just showed up one day because some J.B. Pennypacker spotted their natural skill one day? Zero.

    It’s no use trying to be a big fish in the ocean where the term is relative. New York is the ocean and there will always be bigger fish, sharks, whales, and giant squids. And even if you do manage to become a whale yourself, you just have to contend with Japanese whalers, just like they have to deal with Chinese naval harassment(and greenpeace), just like they have to deal with the US Navy just like they have to deal with Congress, and on and on and on. Get my point.

    Instead of trying to be one of millions in New York, you can be one of thousands in Pittsburgh, Tampa, Houston, wherever.

    It’s not about settling, it’s about life and life is about one thing. Effort. You get nothing if you put in nothing. Read those tea leaves and it says that you have to make a compromise at some point. You have to make a choice. It doesn’t make you a bad person, it doesn’t make you worthless, to focus more on a happy life than a fun one. New York, working and making lots of money may be fun, but fun is not happy. Fun can make happy better, but they are different values.

    As per the original point of the article, if you put one thing above another you better be damn sure you don’t want the other option at all if it is not on your priorities list. But being the intelligent career women you all are i’m sure you all realize the value of not writing anything off completely just because you don’t think it’s necessary at the time. After all things don’t change do they, are hunches and desires at this moment right now are what they will always be won’t they?

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  23. smg45acp Says:

    I really enjoyed the column and the reader’s comments.
    I didn’t read every single comment, but from what I read I saw one gigantic thing that wasn’t mentioned “KIDS.”
    I apologize for bring science into a mainly emotional conversation, but if a woman is wanting to have kids she is on a timetable.
    Fertility drops off rapidly starting around 35 and also around 35 the odds of having a Downs Syndrome child increases and it increases exponentially with each year. Sarah Palin being an example. She had four healthy babies and then a Downs Syndrome child. And she was only in her late 30’s.
    So while you’re debating job vs love, if you have your heart set on having children the clock is ticking.
    You can’t conquer the world and then at 50 decide to settle down and have children.
    I’m a fanatical gardener so I’ll use a gardening analogy.
    If you want flowers in your garden you have to get out there in the Spring and plant them.
    The Seasons won’t wait for you to procrastinate and let you plant them in September.
    In the same way if you want children your Spring is small window of opportunity compared to the entire length or your life.
    There are no easy answers and certainly no one “fits all” solution.

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