Just Say No To Asking Him Out

Part of an article I recently wrote for Your Tango’s Expert series contained 5 pieces of advice that women should never take at face value when they hear it from their girlfriends. One point has actually been getting some coverage in the dating blogosphere of late. That would be the “controversy” over whether or not a woman should ask a man out.

Unless you genuinely believe that a man is too timid or shy or otherwise in the dark about your interest, you should wait for him to do the asking. The reason is simple: because men freely admit to arbitrarily raising and lowering their standards depending on the situation. Meaning that, if sex is offered, he’s likely to take it regardless of how attracted or interested he actually is. Since there isn’t the rampant slut shaming amongst men like there is women, men aren’t particularly concerned with being labeled “easy.” – 5 Misleading Dating Tips Your Girlfriends Give

The reason I don’t think women should ask men out has nothing to do with shifting the power dynamic or setting a precedent. It has to do with one simple issue:


From the How About We piece:

But, most guys aren’t assholes of such cartoonish proportions. I think most guys actually try to do “the right thing.” And on a conscious level, they know it’s not cool to feign interest in a girl just to get her naked, especially if it seems like she wants more than just a fling.

And that’s when the subconscious rationalizing begins:

“Well, I’d sleep with her. And I’m pretty sure she’s interested. But, I’d never want to date her….”

“Alright, be cool then. Just talk to her and be friendly….”

“Oh, look at that. She just kissed me. Hmm….”

“Alright, Conscience. Look, dude, she freaking just kissed me! You can’t possibly expect me to turn her away, right? As long as she kisses me first, then I can totally hook up with her, and you won’t lay all that guilt on me afterwards, right? Right?”


I disagree that men rationalize anything when they have sex. If it is offered and they’re up for it, they will take it. They don’t feel bad about it afterwards, even if the woman starts in with, ‘But I thought we really connected!” If she doesn’t state very plainly upfront what she expects from the relationship (not the sex!) then he’s just going to say yes. He’s not responsible for her feelings, even if he senses that she’s more interested than he is. That’s because most men don’t attach expectations to sex. The whole “but she’s a woman! She has Feels!” doesn’t fly with them, and frankly it shouldn’t. Especially if she’s choosing to do the asking, thereby assuming the male role. Never, ever expect a man to feel responsible for you or your feels before he’s invested or committed.

Few men have to rationalize having sex. That’s mostly a female trait. But the guys who do, along with the guys who don’t, present a “danger’ to the women who make the first move. Even if he’s moderately interested, he will accept that date. And if sex is offered quickly, and I’m betting it usually is in these situations, he will take it.

See, there’s a connection between the women who ask men out and the women who put out. That’s what many men are banking on, which is why they accept. The women who ask men out often times – but not exclusively – are of the “I can date like a man” mentality. Which means their perceptions of dating and sex are based on their usually negative experiences and reliance that their girlfriends are telling them the truth about how they met their guy. They are the ‘I can have sex like a man’ women. And they can’t. Sorry, ladies. You do it to yourselves.

Since women tend to be more status conscious and picky, they believe that men are as discerning when accepting a date. They aren’t. Unless you’re completely unfortunate looking, and they have a slot open on the calendar, they’ll say yes. Sometimes they’ll say yes with absolutely no intention of every meeting up. They just want to back out of the conversation slowly. Others will accept the invitation thinking their chances of scoring pretty effortlessly are higher. And, yes, some will actually be interested but were too shy or in the dark about the woman’s interest to do the asking. But those men are not the majority.

The only time a woman should ask a man out is if she’s completely accepting and understanding that a man might say yes but not be terribly interested. If she can function under the belief that what he or her girlfriends think doesn’t matter, then she should go for it. Otherwise, don’t do it.

**This does not include online dating. With online dating, all rules go out the window.


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54 Responses to “Just Say No To Asking Him Out”

  1. Horace Says:

    This is stupid, silly girl games. Grow up. If you like a guy, and you think he likes you, then ask him out.

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  2. 20somethingnutbar Says:

    I asked a guy out in my senior year of high school. Never again. Even though he said he was willing to “try to make it work”, as I was walking home, I had this sick feeling in my stomach that dating shouldn’t go like that. Also it was mentally taxing (it took me the whole day to work up the nerve to finally ask him!)

    If a guy is interested, he should ask a girl out. And if the guy is shy?…well, then he probably wasn’t worth pursuing in the first place (I don’t know about you, but it’s a total turnoff to have a guy get his friend to play messenger-boy in order to ask me out :P)

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 15 Thumb down 40

    • Joey Giraud Says:

      Of course it’s a turnoff; women don’t want frightened boys, women want bold and confident men!

      But shy guys are worth pursuing, when the men you really want aren’t chasing you.

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    • Horace Says:

      It was mentally taxing to work up the nerve to ask a guy out, but then you say that if a guy is shy he probably isn’t worth it? What a DICK attitude.

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      • Selena Says:

        How many guys are actually THAT shy though? And what if isn’t really that shy, it’s just what a woman tells herself as the reason he isn’t asking her out? And even if a guy IS shy, he can still be not asking a particular woman out because he isn’t interested in her.

        Whenever the “It’s okay to ask out shy guys” idea is floated, there seems to be the perception that shy guys don’t have preferences when it comes to women. :)

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        • Selena Says:

          Or he could be gay. Shy or not. The woman doesn’t know this because he hasn’t deigned to share that detail of his personal life with her. And she just makes the assumption that he’s shy because he hasn’t asked her out.

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          • nathan Says:

            It’s not always about being shy. I’ve gone through periods where I’m simply tired of asking, tired or putting myself out there. Sometimes, this only lasts a short time (few weeks or a month or so), but perhaps it’s during that window that you meet me. What then? I know other men go through this as well. I just think some women will jump through all kinds of mental hoops to avoid the risk of asking a man out, desiring to leave that piece to us, even if it means she misses out.

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          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            she just makes the assumption that he’s shy because he hasn’t asked her out.
            Right, just like I assume any woman who rejects me is a lesbian. (sarcasm)

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        • The D-man Says:

          Jeez, he was in high school. It’s usually not a good idea to draw conclusions about life expectations on that narrow, narcissistic period of experiences.

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        • Horace Says:

          Most guys are actually that shy.

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  3. chris Says:

    what century are we in again?? if the numbers are skewed against women in cities like new york, it follows that one way to get ahead is to be aggressive. ladies go ahead and ask men out as if we were living in a post sexual revolution world where women are better educated men and there are more women than men etc. too many rules in this dating world…..

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  4. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    Allow me to mansplain. The principle that you either accept or not is that men are more likely to accept a date to “go along for the ride.” I happen to agree that men, by their nature, will do this because it is the path of least resistance to sex (which, for men, is the primary motivator – an idea that women do not seem to fully appreciate).

    The consequence is that women must let men make some effort to ensure that the man has some degree of sincere interest and is not just going along for the ride. For women, the way to accomplish this is to learn how to communicate their interest. It takes active effort and skill on the part of the women, it is not passively waiting for a man to ask you out. If the guy is interested, he will then know that she will be a receptive target, and is more likely to move.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Exactly. Women are too caught up with playing it cool and acting aloof and presenting themselves as though they’re lives are so full and busy and active. That’s a mistake many women make with their dating profile. Scuba! Brazil! Girls Night! Busy Important Job!

      Women have been conditioned to seem unavailable rather than available. Seeming available is seen as a weakness.

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      • Joey Giraud Says:

        I’ve wondered if this “I’m so busy, no time for dating” is another test to be ignored. I have ignored it in the past with some success.

        Hard to believe for us feminist-trained post-boomers, but women really do put up barriers to filter out weak and insecure men. And men who are too concerned about respecting a woman’s boundaries will fail the tests. OTOH, decent men don’t want to be heels, and there are times when no really does mean no. ( riddle me that! )

        I don’t blame people for being the way they are, but sometimes women’s mating strategies seem too exhausting to be worth the effort.

        My penis disagrees, of course.

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  5. Zammo Says:

    Moxie is absolutely correct, if politically incorrect.

    But a woman needs to be on guard for the confident, assertive, charismatic fellow who approached effortlessly and left her tingling with excitement with his bold statement of “we should go out sometime, give me your phone number”.

    That’s a player. You have been warned.

    It pains me to know that so many men lack the confidence to chat up a damsel and then recommend a date.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      I participated in a Twitter Chat yesterday about guys who are good for your libido but bad for your head/heart. Almost every woman who took part who told of their experiences all used words like ‘charming” and “allure” and “charismatic” to describe these “players.”

      These guys pretty much exclusively go after women they perceive as weaker somehow. Either they pursue moderately attractive or even unattractive women or women who display an obvious emotional immaturity.

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      • The D-man Says:

        While I agree with your article overall, I don’t agree that players go after weaker women. Even guys who are extremely successful with women are still usually nervous about approaching women. They’re so in their heads that they don’t have time to evaluate the relative strength or weakness of the woman. All they notice is whether she’s hot.

        Here’s a good example: http://charismaarts.com/perceptions — Note all the ways he tries to talk himself out of talking to the girl. Pretty much every guy I know goes through this. (This guy, by the way, wrote one of the chapters of The Game.)

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        • Rick Says:

          Some do, some don’t. I think mostly it’s a shotgun strategy; you plug away at everyone until something sticks. But I do know a couple of guys who specifically target women they think of as weaker when they just want to get laid.

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      • Zammo Says:

        Actually, such men perceive all women as weaker and emotionally immature and will approach any woman he perceives as attractive in some way.

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  6. Jeanne Says:

    What? Are you kidding me?!?! Come on..this is 2012 for Gods sake! With on line dating if the guy just wants to go back and forth with emails and I am interested then I ask him to meet me. Even men I’ve met face to face I’ve asked out the first time..or at least I suggest that we go out some other time and give him my number if he’s interested. If he thinks he’s gonna get easy sex because I asked him out first…well he can think all he wants. Until I’m sure of his intentions then he can think all he wants about whatever he wants.

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Even men I’ve met face to face I’ve asked out the first time

      Need I remind you that you submitted this letter just a few months ago?

      I met a guy at the local bar in my neighborhood a week ago today. His name is Jeff. He came over to where me and a male friend were sitting and engaged in our conversation. After a short time my friend left and Jeff and I carried on…then he started to tell me how sexy I was and asked me if I knew how sexy I was. He also asked if I was a good kisser and that I had sexy lips. This made me uncomfortable and gave me a gut feeling he was a player. So we talked and talked until the bartender thru us out. He walked me to my car and kissed me and we talked about going out on a date. He then gave his business card and asked me to text him so he would have my number. Every day after that he would text me and tell me how sexy I was and still I was uncomfortable but still interested because he is really drop dead gorgeous and a nice dresser which I love. He then gave his business card and asked me to text him so he would have my number. And the sexy texts continued. Saturday I had plans to attend a fundraiser and he was going deep sea fishing with his buddies on his 40 ft yacht…later I looked up his company that had his business history on it and found out he had sold a former business for 175 million!!! I was like this guy is too good to be true. So anyway…Saturday morning we talked and made plans to get together late that night. I was very excited! At 6PM that night he texted me that he had decided to stay with his buddies and stay on his boat. At first I was like OK thats fine…but then after time had past I got really angry and felt that he had blown me off. Then I sent him an angry text that said he blew me off and all kinds of angry words. I heard nothing from him until 1 am when he sent me 3 text messages saying I totally misread what happened and that because of my reaction he felt we wouldn’t be a good match. Then another message said he was totally blown away. Later that day I was with a girlfriend and I said this guys a player and forget about it. Then as the day wore on I got angry at myself for losing control of my emotions…and I knew I had been rude. So I texted an appology text to him saying I was sorry that I was so rude and over the top. That is was nice to have met him and to take care. Deciding that I wouldn’t see him again. Then I get a text from him saying “I’m confused???…does this mean I can still see you tomorrow night?” I was like…WHAT? He still wants to see me? Do I still want to see him? So I decided to give him a second chance…so I said yes. He texted me he was really excited for our date. When he came to pick me up he brought me flowers and said this is for me messing up the other night, that he was sorry and maybe we could start over again on a better note. I was blown away! So all night he was such a gentleman. Hold the door open, hold my hand when driving and then we ended up at his place to watch a movie. I asked him to be a gentleman because I didn’t want to have sex on the first date. We get there and he lights candles all over the place…and we start watching the movie…well he starts kissing me and God he’s a good kisser and of course one thing let to another and we got it on..in a Big way! Then he asked me if I wanted to spend the night I declined and he drove me home. On the way he told me he had to travel for business over the next two weeks and wouldn’t be able to see me. I said I understood and inside was bummed out. Anyway…I spoke to him on the phone the next day to tell him how unresponsible we had been having had unprotected sex but not to worry because I had just had my physical and was screened and I was clean…he said he was too. Then I told him I was kind of embarressed because I had sex with him on the first date…He asked me why I would feel bad I said because I wanted it to be perfect. He sounded very deadpan about it, then we said good bye. This morning I texted him and said “I’m lying here in bed looking at your flowers smiling. Hope you have a great day and a safe trip to Chicago.” I haven’t heard anything from him at all. I’m nervous about this…I feel like its silly to worry about it..but he texted me every day til he saw me on the date and suddenly nothing. What do you think? Am I over reacting? Should I trust my gut instincts that he’s a player?? (Millionaire,Yacht, drop dead gorgeous, travels all over the world, romantic, big executive) I really like this guy but I’m scared to death and freaking because he hasn’t responded to me and again…I’ve got that gut feeling that he’s got women all over the place?
      Age: 53
      State: MA

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    • Zammo Says:

      “Come on..this is 2012 for Gods sake!”

      And this is relevant how? Yes, I know our culture is supposed to evolve and “progress” with time, but let’s be honest, our culture has evolved and progressed into a state of affairs that is terrible for dating and relationships.

      As you are posting a comment on a blog that seeks to help people with dating and relationships, I suspect that you could use some help, too.

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  7. Craig Says:

    Here’s what I think – I think some women need to get over themselves. Mere possession of a vagina doesn’t mean any guy will screw you. Most guys who have it going on and have options are not going to say yes to any woman who asks them out just because it’s a path to easy sex. If a woman asks me out but I think she’s a troll, are you telling me I’m going to say yes just so I can sleep with her easily? I don’t think so. I am only saying yes to women I am attracted to regardless of my intentions. Whether or not we end up dating long-term depends on how much a like her during the course of the dates. While I certainly assume that a woman who asks me out wants to sleep with me – I don’t assume it’s going to happen any quicker than usual because her doing the asking means she’s “easy”. I am attracted to strong, secure women – and such women pursue what they want in life. A “you keep what you kill” mentality is hot.

    How many women complain a good man is hard to find? We’re not. We’re all around you. The problem is you’re always waiting for us to come to you, which is a fools game. In life the things you want don’t typically fall in your lap. You mostly have to pursue what you want. Women don’t actually have to ask a guy out in order to make the first move. There’s no harm in offering a guy your number and letting the guy take it from there. Afraid of rejection? Tough. That’s life. Get over it. Either he calls or he doesn’t. And if he assumes he’s getting laid right away, well then it’s a woman’s prerogative to set him straight now isn’t it? I couldn’t imagine living a life where my choice in lovers is limited to whoever happens to choose me. You don’t choose your platonic friends that way, so why a lover? I don’t know how women do it. Fuck that.

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    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      Even for a man professing to have high standards, there is still a category of women that Mr. HighStandards would casually date and sleep with no intention of ever getting serious.

      Its not necessary to prove that all men would sleep with anyone. Its always relative. Sure, a given woman may get rejected by some men. That’s the easy case – the guy wasn’t interested. Its when the guy accepts the date that it becomes an issue. The woman doesn’t know why the guy accepted. He may be sincerely interested, or he may be going along for the ride.

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  8. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    Like I said.

    Unless you’re completely unfortunate looking, and they have a slot open on the calendar, they’ll say yes.

    The problem is that if a woman has to ask a man out, he’s probably not interested in the first place. And since women have a hard time accepting the concept of leagues and are over-exposed to the self-flagellation that tends to occur within their group of female friends, they go after guys – in an aggressive way – thinking they’re just being empowered and proactive. It’s not the act of asking a man out that is the problem. It’s that most women don’t know how to do it in a way that doesn’t make them a mark.

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    • Selena Says:

      “The problem is that if a woman has to ask a man out, he’s probably not interested in the first place.”

      This is the reason I’ve never asked a man out. If I’m friendly, open and giving off the fun, available vibe – why isn’t he asking me out? Could be any reason, but it all comes down to he doesn’t want to. And if doesn’t want to, there is no point in me “pursuing” him.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        I’m friendly, open and giving off the fun, available vibe – why isn’t he asking me out?
        Have you considered that maybe you’re not giving off the vibe that you think you are? Studies show that the signals women think they’re sending cannot be reliably picked up even by other women, much less men.

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  9. nathan Says:

    “Since women tend to be more status conscious and picky, they believe that men are as discerning when accepting a date. They aren’t. Unless you’re completely unfortunate looking, and they have a slot open on the calendar, they’ll say yes.”

    Women frequently accept date invitations from men they feel lukewarm about. And the majority of men don’t have such an anything goes attitude as you are painting us with. The truly highly picky women, as well as the rampantly slutty men, are in the minority, despite all the TV, movie, and internet “evidence” to the contrary.

    Furthermore, asking someone out, and getting a yes, really doesn’t give you much information about the person’s actual level of interest.

    And while it’s true that men are more willing to sleep with women they feel lukewarm or less about, just because a guy goes out on a date with a woman isn’t cause for believing he’s wanting to, or even open to, sleeping with that woman. It can, and often does, shift around during the course of a date. I’ve had the experience in a single night out of starting out with being genuine interest, to learning more about her and feeling lukewarm, but perhaps open to sex, to having zero interest in anything other than going home. All over the span of a few hours. Men might want sex a lot, but we aren’t single track machines set permanently on play.

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  10. Speed Says:

    I think we’re overlooking the obvious middle ground a woman can take between asking a guy out and doing nothing. That middle ground is the time-tested method “flirting.” I don’t have any expertise on how a woman can flirt, so I can only draw from my own experience:

    –Woman sat down next to me in at a bar, when there were many other open seats available
    –Woman leaned over a railing next to me on top of a tourist attraction, and struck up a conversation
    –Woman A’s friend invited me to a party, saying Woman A “hoped I would be there”

    Sometimes, of course, what I interpreted as “flirting” was just “friendliness,” so I got shot down. Other times, I found out they were indeed flirting and we began to date.

    As many others have said, I think flirting is a good weapon for a woman, because it allows her to clearly make her interest known, without the risk of losing face.

    At the same time, if you strongly flirt with a guy and you get no response, don’t think he is “catching your clues.” Instead, unfortunately, he probably just doesn’t have any desire to date you.

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  11. Zammo Says:

    “Women are too caught up with playing it cool and acting aloof and presenting themselves as though their lives are so full and busy and active”

    This is because these are the exact same traits they find attractive in men. So, thinking that men and women are much the same regarding attraction in the opposite sex, women act like this.

    News flash for the politically correct – men are not the same as girls regarding attraction. Men are typically attracted to femininity. When girls are all cool and aloof and always busy busy busy, finding and dating good men becomes an almost insurmountable challenge.

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    • India Says:

      I think men and women are not all that unlike. Physically attraction is the first draw of both men and woman; kindness, character, and compassion wins out in the long run.
      I am a little distressed by this binary and black and white view perpetuates by this blog:never make the first move! Men want feminine princesses and women want a thick wallet! There seems to be a lot of cynism and hurt that underlies all these assumptions.
      I like to think that there are plenty of men with character who would not view a woman making the fist move just as a sex opportunity. Let us give men more credit than that.

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      • Joey Giraud Says:

        It’s a matter of context, India. In certain circumstances ( certainly not in a meat-market bar or a stranger on the street, ) a woman can persue, but it only works if the man knows her and has considered her a platonic equal rather then a romantic possibility.

        In other words, if it comes from “out of the blue.”

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    • Joey Giraud Says:

      This is because these are the exact same traits they find attractive in men. So, thinking that men and women are much the same regarding attraction in the opposite sex, women act like this.

      I know a pretty woman, an old aquaintance from college, who keeps showing up at my gigs, happy as heck to see me, big hugs and smiles, then drags me over to meet her beef-cake of the month.

      Swear to God it feels like something else is going on besides a friendly introduction. It feels like the cat showing me the mouse it caught, and I’m not all that impressed.

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      • India Says:

        Your pretty friend is super happy likely due to the fact she is getting laid properly by her beefcake. I would not over think this one :)

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  12. Christina Says:

    i guess I need to stop being surprised that this issue keeps coming up. I thought it was resolved at least 25 years ago. When I was in college, waaaay back in the late 80’s/early 90’s, it was completely normal and acceptable for a woman to do the asking. Because I was bad at flirting, I started asking guys out back in high school. I got some rejections and some takers. I never got the feeling that I was somehow considered “easier” because I made an initial approach. Maybe it’s because I’m overall a very non- aggressive person.

    Twenty years later, I was single again, doing mostly online dating. I did probably half of the asking, and honestly, the guys who came on strongest for NSA sex were the ones who contacted me first and often pursued rather aggressively. In general, my motto is, it’s okay to make the first move, but don’t “throw yourself” at the guy.

    I don’t know if it’s possible to make a general rule in this area. There just seem to be too many variables at work. It depends on your age, your personality, your life philosophy, your location, your past experiences, and the kind of people you attract/who you are attracted to. As usual, do what works for you. If what you do isn’t working, do something else.

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  13. Violet Says:

    I’m curious as to how many of the people who disagree with Moxie are actually WOMEN who have asked men out. Men like the idea of women asking them out in theory, but that is because they are assuming it means an increase in women they are attracted to asking them out. With the exception of online dating (where they do see this) they are not as used to totally unexpected people catching them off guard and asking them out as women are– in other words, people they did not feel attraction with, which is why they are caught off guard. I used to think you could take the bull by the horns, but I learned this lesson the hard way. I’m in my early 30s and probably asked out (in person) about 10 guys in my 20s. Guess how many ended up in dates/ relationships? 0. And for the record, I’m not hideous — probably an 8 who typically dates within that range. It’s a sad gender difference that still exists. Your job as a female is to flirt with a guy until he suggests you hang out in some way, shape, or form. Guys who are NOT interested, or who are half interested might take your suggestion that you hang out, or take the phone number you are shoving in his face, but i’d like to know how many of these half interested guys actually evolve into a real relationship. Also, many women do not actually want to date guys that are so shy and awkward that they won’t ask you out. This is really an instance where He’s Just Not that Into You is true. It doesn’t mean if you’re female you can’t pursue a guy–you pursue by flirting. If he’s interested he will take the bait.

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    • India Says:

      When a men asks a woman out, how often does it lead to a relationship? Very few. No better or worse than your sample size of 10.

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      • Violet Says:

        I’m not talking about the raw numbers, but the ratio. The percent of instances where a man asking a women out leads to a relationship is small– let’s say 5%. My argument is that it is probably even lower than that for women asking out men.

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        • India Says:

          That was exactly my point. The percent of asking out by either gender that leads to a relationship is low. It is a crap shoot either way.

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          • Joey Giraud Says:

            To be blunt, a guy feels pathetic if it doesn’t take any effort.

            Guys who don’t mind feeling pathetic welcome women hitting on them.

            Or really young and insecure guys who expect to grow out of being pathetic.

            In my twenties, I loved the few occasions when a woman pursued me, but I never valued those women all that much.

            The women I pursued and “conquered,” those were the women I got kind of crazy over.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 16

        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          India is right in that there is no natural difference between men and women with respect to the ratio of ask/rejection. If there is a difference, it is a cultural one – i.e., the men know to focus on the women who flirt, but how do the women choose? Given the cultural expectation of flirting, you would expect men to be making the more informed choice, and therefore a more successful one. But, that culture is not set in stone. You could easily imagine a society where the men did all the flirting, and the women did all the asking based on that information. So, why isn’t our culture set up that way?

          The answer is the real difference I cited above. It’s a fundamental difference in the natures of man and women. One of the few, in my opinion. Biological. Men are primarily motivated by sex. Women are…. not.

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  14. Steve From the City Next Door Says:

    The problem with flirting I have found is the quantity of flirting various a lot by the particular women. What I mean by this is that if a girl has a really flirty personality she may flirt with everyone at around an 8 level of intensity – if she is actually interested it is a 10. Now another girl has non-flirty personality – she generaly flirts with everyone at a level 2 – guys she is interested in at a 4. So if a girl is flirting with me at all how do I know if she is interested or not unless I already know her flirty personality? Plus, what if she wants something or is used to doing that? Just tonight I ran into a friend who is a waitress – she flirts for tips at work and even off work seems to be unable to turn it off.

    If personal observation counts for anything….women initiated relationships lead to a lot more long lasting marriages then men initiated — relatively speaking.

    I am remind of an old co-worker who was proud how he had swept in and got the women….by everyone else’s account he officially asked her out first, but she all but moved his mouth to form the words and pushed on his chest to make the air flow to make it happen.

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    • nathan Says:

      I frequently run into the same issue as Steve with flirting. 80% of the time, a woman is just being friendly. If I don’t know her, or barely know her, I often can’t judge if there is any difference unless she’s really interested. It’s easier to tell with someone you’ve known a little bit, but that kind of connection isn’t always available. Of course, with online dating all of this is different to some degree, although even on first dates, I’ve sometimes found it hard to read what’s going on. In part, because people in general are “nice” and “friendly” here in Minnesota. We’re known for having that kind of veneer.

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  15. D'Alias Says:

    Mmm. I’ve tried asking men out or approaching them a few times. Online, I might request an initial meeting with a man who approached me first, but that’s about it. I don’t really approach guys online anymore because I’ve found it is mostly a waste of time. The problem isn’t the rejection – I’m fine with that. What I don’t like is that these guys will talk to me, take my phone number, set up dates and flake. I mean, really. If you don’t like what you see of me in pics then just don’t respond to me. Or, if it’s passable enough for you to flirt with me, then why not meet in person to see if you’re interested? It’s not that serious.

    In real life, I’d never ask a guy out. If I make myself available and I’m nice to him, I think he’d ask me if he were interested. I’ve seen other friends embarrass themselves by throwing it at guys. The result is usually NO. But the rejection isn’t what holds me back the most – it’s the risk of getting made fun of. (I’m heavy – size 18. Lots of people aren’t into that. To make it worse, lots of people stereotype heavy girls as sluts. I’m not interested in perpetuating that myth)

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  16. nathan Says:

    “What I don’t like is that these guys will talk to me, take my phone number, set up dates and flake. ” I have had plenty of women do this to me over the years of online dating. I also have had enough success with online dating that I realize it’s just part of the process. Definitely gets old, and I suppose being a heavier woman, you have to deal with more of it than some of us. But it’s not unusual: there is a lot of flaking online regardless.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  17. D'Alias Says:

    I don’t know for sure that the flaking is any worse for me. Those who truly arent into my shape don’t bother at all. I think where it’s worse to be heavier is that you are more likely to be cut off in favor of someone with a hotter body if a man is picking amongst a few different quality prospects. That’d usually happen within the first few dates or few months. . .kind of like a man who is short or only has a bachelor’s degree instead of an MBA, JD or whatever. So, I’m interested to hear from more women who’ve asked men out. I you’ve been successful, how did you approach?

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    • Nyteangel Says:

      Hi D’Alias,

      I actually am considered hot so have had the problem of really nice guys not approach because they didn’t think I’d be interested. Also looking attractive, attracts a lot of creeps. So would get the married guys or ones with significant others only looking for a good time in bed. It kind of forced me into the situation to just ask guys out. At least in asking I’d be picking someone I was interested in that I knew wasn’t attached. That should work right? Wrong. There was one guy in college. We were both on the tennis team and he was in one of my classes. I suggested maybe we could get together and play some time. He gave me the nicest smile and said that would be cool, then avoided me. I ran into him not too long ago this is years later, he still seemed like he was in flight mode. And I know guys have experienced that too after asking out a girl they liked. I don’t know why anyone would think you were still interested years later? Mostly my experience with asking guys out would be always having to initiate calling and setting up the dates. The dates themselves though sometimes fun would be mostly lackluster. Others I guess thought I was a party girl looking for some action. So decided to stop initiating with guys. I didn’t stop flirting or showing interest but stopped asking them out. My current situation is with someone I was working with. He seemed really interested in me. Even though I don’t know him well would like to have gotten to know him better. We had done a fair amount of flirting and there were times I felt I was tripping over him. I got the idea the feelings were mutual. It was a consulting job for me and with my last day approaching during a conversation I just asked him if he’d like to get together sometime for coffee or lunch. I was so excited when he said yes but you know he never gave me his contact info or asked for mine. My last day he wished me well and hoped I’d be called back in again. Never mentioned getting together so months later it seems safe to say that is that. So it’s not your body type as you put it. Either the guy is interested or he’s not. There are guys I’ve talked to that like women to approach them and there are those who don’t. My personal opinion is initiating calling or asking out the guy doesn’t work. The best relationships/dates I’ve had were the ones where the guy initiated. This is just my experience.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

  18. Crotch Rocket Says:

    I totally disagree with pretty much all of your rationalization, but I come to the same conclusion for one very simple reason:

    There are only two types of women who have ever asked me out: those who I would date and just hadn’t gotten around to asking yet, and those who I would never date. The former have no need to ask, and the latter are just setting themselves up to be pumped and dumped (or to be rejected, if fat or ugly).

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 7

  19. Mark Says:

    I read the points raised by Moxie as to why a woman should not ask a man out.

    First, I would as a simple question. “Do you feel that you are reasonably successful in taking as of now?’ If you legitimately can say that you are comfortable with either the number or quality of the dates you currently are getting then by all means continue doing so. There would be no or little need to alter what you are doing or how you are doing it.

    Second, if there is someone who just seems to grab your attention, why not as him out? You could do so in a very direct manner. Although most women don’t really do that. You might also consider dropping subtle or even not so subtle hints so that he picks up on this hints and asks you out. It was your idea all along, but you simply made him think it was his idea.

    I think I recall reading here someplace an anecdote about a young girl going to a dance and none of the boys asked her to dance. The young woman’s father picked her up and asked her if she met any nice boys. Was she more passive about the opportunity or was she more proactive about the situation?

    Fast forward a few years. If you feel that you are in a similar position of the young lady at the dance, then you might want to rethink your strategy and be more proactive about things.

    If you are concerned that being so forward would give the man the impression that this is simply a short prelude to a role in the sack, then you can set the boundaries from the outset.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  20. Nyteangel Says:

    Yes, I find myself back in this spot again. Maybe things have changed for the younger set not sure? For me I believed I was the modern girl back in the 80s. That times had changed and it was perfectly fine for a girl to ask a guy out. So I did quite a few times. Honestly it never really worked for me. Could be the guys I was interested in were not or would not ever be interested in me, my approach; don’t know? Some we’d go out a couple of times and that was it. A few other guys smiled nicely and said sure but then avoided me like I had the plague. Did have one long term from asking someone out. He turned out to be one of the worst guys I ever dated. I’m sure my experience wasn’t different from most guys. In the long run I stopped asking guys out. Not that I didn’t flirt or show someone interest, I just didn’t initiate calling and asking out. No I was not a game player and if a guy called, I would always call back IF he left his number. There are those guys who won’t give you any contact information. Either hiding something or fearful of crazy stalker women. Now a widow I have to admit wasn’t interested in meeting anyone but you know when you’re not looking that’s when you meet someone. I met him while doing consulting work. Even though I’ve been out of the dating world awhile haven’t forgotten what flirting is. He definitely seemed interested, was always offering to help, hung around my work station but never initiated conversation unless it was work related. I would often catch him looking at me when he didn’t think I’d notice. So one day I decided to just stop by and say hi. Kept conversation short just in case I was wrong, didn’t want to be a nuisance. The initial conversation he seemed nervous but any after that he always seemed well prepared. My final day was getting close and I suggested the next time I was in the city maybe we could have lunch or coffee. I hadn’t intended to ask him out it just kind of happened. He said that would be good. Well my last day came and went. He wished me well. Never asked for my contact info, didn’t offer his and hoped that I’d be back in to work again soon. Because I had already suggested a date of sorts, thought I would seem desperate to mention it again and didn’t want to seem pushy by giving him my contact info since he didn’t request it. My feeling is he enjoyed talking with me at work and though he may find me attractive he’s not interested in anything more. At this point in time I feel the ball is in his court and I’m not hard to find if he’s truly interested. For me I’ve found the best relationships I’ve had were the ones where guys initiated contact, calling, setting up dates etc… So for now happy to remain single and not chasing guys who don’t want to be caught.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

    • dave Says:

      Ms. Nyteangel – Just trying to understand. You DID ask him out or you didn’t? It sounds like you wanted or expected something to happen, and it did not happen. He was expected to ask you out on a specific date when you only suggested (?) a general one.
      I guess that women want to make sure that the man can NEVER say that the woman showed real interest first. He might have seen YOU as not being worth chasing because YOU did not want to be caught by him.

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