Who Has It Harder Online – Men or Women?

The theory which seems to me to fit the evidence best is that social media for women is like porn and video games for men. Watching that “like” counter tick over gives them a little shot of dopamine. They don’t post profiles actually intending to meet a partner, to actually go through with it. They are content with just that little hit of validation. All of the comments directed at men about how porn and games are wrecking their ability to relate – especially to the opposite sex – apply to women and social media.

Between this and the ‘bots, dating sites are a waste of time for men.- Mr. Wombat


You know, I read comments like this and just roll my eyes. Seriously..when did you guys get so whiny? Not just whiny but annoying and weird.

Please tell me where this misconception came from that women have it easier online? Are you so self-absorbed and self-victimizing that you actually think women don’t deal with the exact same crap you do?

Here’s an example:

So, Mr. “I want to worship your ass” emailed me again with the same exact line. “You should really let me worship your ass.” This time, I replied:

I’m genuinely curious…

Other than the shock factor, what do you get out of sending messages like that? I mean, I doubt anybody takes you up on it because every woman knows that men only send messages like that because they have a twisted idea of what is attractive and sexy. The gusy who actually do worship our asses are smart enough not to be so obvious, which is why they get laid.

Plus you’re probably emailing women who think nothing of posting your photo allover Twitter, Facebook and blogs mocking you. You do realize women do that, right? You’re spoon feeding women across NYC with status updates.

Good luck.

His response:

My life doesn’t revolve around Facebook or twitter. So I could care less.[Footnote: Be careful of statements like that, my brahs.]

He then followed up with:

How old are you really?

And then:

Want to meet for a drink?


Oh. Then there’s this charmer:

Hey, I admired your profile and pics.. especially in that Black dress..maybe we can connect some day soon.

[NOTE: My profile clearly states that I don’t reply to people who don’t show their face in their photos. The 3 photos this guy has were all ones where the entirety of his face was obscured.] I replied:

I was pretty clear in my profile that guys who didnt have clear photos shouldn’t contact me. Maybe read the profiles instead of just the photos.

His response:

bye good luck! LOL your attitude probably warrants the reason why you are alone and why you are on this site.
I am here just checking out the losers.. GOOD LUCK

Then there was this string of insanity from another guy. I have blocked this guy numerous time. He pops up every few months with a different profile, so I’m guessing I’m not the only one who has blocked him. Oh..and bonus? This is a guy I met several years ago on another website. He ended up sending me a text after we hooked up to say that I “wasn’t the right size for him.” Get it? A fat reference! Here’s the string. He said:

We’ve met on lavalife

I said:

Stop emailing me. It’s not charming or cute. It makes you seem incredibly creepy and weird and makes me uncomfortable. I’m asking you politely to please stop.

He responded:

Uratool, the sex sucked

Oh. Well then it makes total sense that he continues to email me.

So, sorry brahs, but cry me a river. We all have to deal with clowns and few responses and faders. It’s not exclusive to you. You don’t have a monopoly on the frustrating/annoying online dating experience.

I can hear some of the comments now.

“At least you get emails!”

Yes, aren’t I lucky? Aren’t I just blessed to have 98% of the 20 or so emails I receive a week be from:

*Guys from Turkey, Greece, Amsterdam, etc?

*Guys in their twenties offering disingenuous compliments about how sexy I am?

*Guys from bordering states who are “in town for a few days” and “want to meet for a drink?” (Get a freakin’ escort!)

There’s this false belief out there that “all’ women get off on getting all these emails. Let me tell you something: this makes the whole online dating process inordinately time consuming and frustrating. You might not think much of someone having to log in and access a message. It takes all of 30 seconds. But multiple that by, say, 3 to 5 a day. The time lost is not the issue. It’s the overall toll it takes on the user. I’m including men in that, by the way. People don’t use those sites looking for pen pals or just to chat.

The point where I will agree with Mr. Wombat is that social media is the having a drastically negative effect on women’s ability to relate to the opposite sex. I wholeheartedly co-sign on how some (some!) women get this distorted perception of how the opposite sex views them based on the responses they get to their attention whoring tweets and status updates. These women begin to believe that men are supposed to constantly offer sympathy and attention and praise for every thought and opinion and emotion that they have.That becomes the man’s function. They become dehumanized to some degree.

I don’t know when this started, but the whole obsession that some women have with rolling around on the internet with their legs splayed while they have all these feels has gotten way, WAY out of control. Get some fucking dignity, ladies. Stop being so proud of being wounded and damaged and messed up. Everybody needs an attaboy from time to time. As humans, we’re conditioned to require some level of validation in order to grow and recoup from disappointments. But now the internet provides an endless supply of such attention, to the point where women’s ability to build their own identity and self-esteem has become crippled. Every twisted and distorted belief that women (and men) have about the opposite sex becomes their reality because they manage to find or develop some vacuum inhabited by other walking woundeds. (Yes, bros, I’m talking to you too. The blogs and forums dedicated to whining about women are just as bad as the dating blog and columns written by women.)

Here’s how it goes. A man or woman writes a piece about how they were abused, abandoned, victimized, lied to, etc. In come alllll the other people who have had similar experiences. Or a story breaks somewhere and then a stream of posts and articles come out wherein the author decides to “tell their story.” People rush to marry themselves to a certain cause or issue so that they can pull the focus on to them. Comment threads become jumbled with side-line conversations for the people who didn’t have the ability to write a whole article about it but still wanted to share their story. Comments like “you’re so brave/honest/real/raw” flood the comment stream. That, in turn, encourages other people to share their “brave” tales.

Dare to go against the grain and speak your mind constructively, and you’re a hater. You’re not being supportive. The upside is that people get to use the critques as an excuse to pander for validation and attention.

But where this trend is really useful is to declare that you love yourself more than to settle. “You go girl!” was invented for cases like this.

I guess what my little rant is really about how all this bravery and phone introspection and rawness is actually hurting us, not helping us. These women begin to exist in  a vacuum.They don’t learn or grow and they egin to believe that their being accountable and introspective when really they’re just being whiny and self-obsessed.


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157 Responses to “Who Has It Harder Online – Men or Women?”

  1. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    Men and women have it equally hard. Less attractvie people have it harder than more attractive people. If there’s a generalized difference between groups of people, that is it. This shouldn’t be news.

    Very attractive people of either gender can realistically expect to have sucess getting very attractive dates, Online dating is not a wasteland for them. It’s a bounty. The key to having success online (and anywhere really) is having realistic expectations. If you have realistic expectations – however attractive or unattractive you may be – you will never really be disappointed.

    Also, as I said on another post, clowns are in abundance out there. Everybody gets contacted by these people. Everybody. The real problem, I suspect, is when the people you perceive as clowns are the only people that are contacting you. In that case, it’s time to lower your expectations to reflect your reality – to re-evaluate whether these people are, in fact, clowns or whether you’re just unhappy with the quality of dates you can get..

    • Howard Says:

      It all depends how one describes success. Success should be actually meeting someone for what one really wants Using that definition, men are more successful. Women get all the attention; even attractive guys have to work hard, but in the end men get more success.

      The twisted reason for this is that men have lower expectations. There are people hooking up for meaningful relationships that last, so that represents an even situation in terms of gender satisfaction. However in situations where relationships don’t last, men seem to be generally satisfied for the time spent with someone, especially if sex was involved. Women on the other hand too often find ways to make everything seem miserable after the fact. I must commend the women who have begun to reject that false view. Nothing lasts forever. The end result of this life is a box in the ground, so it’s what happens in between that matters.

  2. K Says:

    Agree with DMN and also would add, I think it gets harder / more tedious if you engage the clowns. I was actively online dating for several months in 2011/2012 and got a fair amount of emails not worth replying to, so I just didn’t reply / deleted them. Only a couple times did they follow up after the silence, and then only one follow-up. A few times if the person was blatantly a fake profile or they were offensive, I flagged and sent a note to the administrator.

    Actually, I’m wrong, one time I did reply to a totally ridiculous guy, and of course he emailed me back with a nasty comment. But other than that I avoided that back and forth so my inbox didn’t get choked with crap.

    I got a decent amount of messages, but nothing like the hundreds a day that men think women get. Maybe not even 20 a week like you’re getting (after the initial week where you activate your profile and get a ton of activity), but I don’t live in NYC so probably a smaller pool. I’m getting into late 30s, but I imagine it gets harder after 40. But after a while I learned to stay calm, not care, go out with the best of who emailed me, and not put much expectation on any first date. I think I did all right.

  3. HammersandNails Says:

    I do think that you are seriously minimizing the incredibly inefficient nature of online dating for men. I know that you say that you will respond to a simple greeting from a man with a decent profile, but I, and all the men I know have found that enough women will hold lack of effort in an initial message against a man. It simply takes more time for a man to get a single face to face date than a woman. The man must first spend enough time finding enough prospects to gather enough to send the initial deluge of clever emails which will mostly be ignored, then the man must do the dance as long as the woman cares to before getting a face to face. I am not saying that women don’t deal with flakes and time wasters, but I’m saying that a man has more invested. We don’t have the luxury of getting indignant when women don’t conform to our ideals. We expect to jump through hoops, because online dating is a woman’s game. She needs phone calls to feel “comfortable”? Sure. Why not? She can only meet at right after work and I’ll have to cut out from work early to show up frazzled? I’d never plan a date without an hour after work to decompress, but sure. Why not? Not worth fighting for on the slim chance she will negotiate instead of bailing the second things don’t go her way. I’d hate to waste all the effort it took to get this far.

    At the heart of it, you know that at least 10%+ of the guys that email you would absolutely go out with you if you replied to their initial email with. “Hey, thanks for the email. I’d love to grab a drink some time. I’m free day x and day y.” It just doesn’t work that way for guys. I agree with you that all the back and forth on line and though text is a waste of time. You don’t really learn much until you meet in person.

    I honestly do not have any sympathy at all with the above exchanges. You chose to engage these people. You know you could have just hit delete and moved in less than 5 seconds. You choose to be outraged by the worship guy because you are taking his failure to pander to your delicate sensibilities as an attack on your self-worth. I get plenty of emails from women that are objectively much less attractive than I am and so not say what I’d like emails to say. Life is short and I’ve got better things to worry about.

    I think after the first date things get a lot more balanced, and possibly start tipping in a mans favor if he is a good dater, but getting a first date online is just a lot easier and less painful for women.

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Then stop doing all that stuff. Why can’t you look at that as dodging a bullet instead of whining about how unfair it is? There are plenty of women who don’t require a phone call and are reasonable.Oh, right. You don’t want those women. You’re so intent on dating a woman who looks a certain way that you indulge their demanding behavior. You have nobody to blame but yourself.

      You choose to be outraged by the worship guy because you are taking his failure to pander to your delicate sensibilities as an attack on your self-worth.

      No, I choose to be outraged at his stupidity and social cluelessness. Really? Someone needs to tell you that comments like that are obnoxious? When someone doesn’t reply to their first three attempts to engage you, that’s not enough to tell you they aren’t interested? Typically, I do just delete and block and move on.I’ve said as much. I don’t care that they sent me snotty replies. I expected that. I posted them to show the caliber of idiocy women deal with. (To be honest, that’s why I replied in the first place. To get them to reply so I could post their responses.)

      • Hoodlum Says:

        Give me a break. Do you really think pretty much any women are aware of their own level, and won’t try to get all but the hottest men? And you call men out for doing the same, when we are in actual fact evolutionarily programmed to respond to physical attraction cues?

        I have plenty of semi-attractive female friends on online dating sites – all they have to do every day is come home, skim through the 50+ messages they receive every day to discard the weirdos, and then engage in a few normal back and forth messages until they decide they want to go on a date. Sure, some of the messages are lame, some are weird, but there is a healthy proportion of normal ones in there too.

        If you’re a relatively good looking man, you might expect to receive maybe a few messages a day, along the lines of “Hi” or “How is your week” – what scintillating banter ladies, do tell me more.

        And that’s if you’re attractive – if you’re not attractive, well then you’re stuffed – women’s innate hypergamy means even the average looking chicks will still only message the hottest men and ignore guys on their own level. You’ll be coming home to a barren wasteland of an inbox, and no replies to any of your messages.

        If you’re lucky enough to get a an attractive girl (who is on your level looks wise) to respond to a message (a message which has to be witty and interesting to even get you ahead of the other 50+ men that day), you then have walk a tightrope of not saying anything to offend her delicate sensibilties, but keeping the conversation edgy and interesting enough to navigate your way to the phone number and date. And at any given point during the process, there is every chance she will just stop replying since a better prospect has chimed in or you said something that wasn’t quite cool enough.

        Women have it as hard as men? Pure solipsism. Run hamster, run.

        • The D-man Says:

          I get a few messages from women, not a ton, but at least a few per week. They all are terrible at banter. I go out with some of them anyway and find most of them to be engaging in person, but they haven’t learned how to flirt online because they don’t need to.

          I used to write earnest messages expressing interest and got a poor response rate. I changed my style to be more lighthearted and succinct, usually cracking wise about something in her profile. Much better results.

          Maybe more women should make an effort to write the messages they wish they were receiving instead of moaning about all the bozos. Then again, though most women say they want a sense of humor in a man, they themselves are usually lacking in that department.

          • ng85 Says:

            I love how women sometimes say in their profiles things like “Be funny in your messages” or “Don’t message just just saying ‘Hey’ or asking what’s up.” But most messages I get from women are exactly that. Sometimes they add a little more, saying something like “Hey, I like your shirt in that picture”. So I’m supposed to be witty and creative in my messages, but women can turn around and write some of the most boring first messages ever?

            • Steve Says:

              That’s what they can do when they have the numbers on their sides. Never until online dating did average looking women have so much power. Recently, I took income off my match profile, and my incoming messages and followups have almost completely dried up. This despite being in the best shape of my life, fashionable clothing and good pics, intelligent, good job and background. I have also targeted women in their age bracket plus maybe 1 yr. They are also about the same attractiveness of women I’ve dated in the past. A 7 with a good personality is ideal to me.The women on these sites complain that there are no decent guys in Manhattan, all players, gay, whatever. Wrong, they just all want that 6’2″ chisled hedge fund billionaire that probably doesn’t exist, and if they do, not enough to go around for all the average looking women in Manhattan. As for Moxie’s argument, I don’t buy it. A year ago she posted some of her (then) recent escapades, and as I recall, there were about 10 or so meetings which led to anywhere from brief fling to short relationships, a good number she slept with. That to me sounds like pretty good results. And that was just in a restricted time period, there were probably more before and after. When, there are a lot of guys who have difficulty even getting dates, much less 2nd, 3rd dates, sex, or long term girlfriends. A lot of whom are decent looking guys with good backgrounds. Even without my removing income, I have noticed that online dating is getting worse over the last year. I have changed around my profile, adding new pics, but it is clear that my response rate and follow up rates are going down. It is becoming more of a sausage fest every day. I wouldn’t put all your eggs in one basket with online dating, it’s a mistake I have made, which was good for some dating practice and that’s about it. Remember that if women have such an advantage online, that means that there are many out there not using it, other wise the demand/supply curve would shift. Anyway, I’m off to the gym, and hopefully some cute girls to chat with today. Good luck.

              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                A year ago she posted some of her (then) recent escapades, and as I recall, there were about 10 or so meetings which led to anywhere from brief fling to short relationships, a good number she slept with. And that was just in a restricted time period, there were probably more before and after.

                You’re talking about a post I wrote about my experience on OKCupid last year that I wrote last fall. Out of the 8 guys I mentioned, I slept with 2, one that I dated for about 3 months. Right after that post I met someone on OKC and dated him for about 6 months. Please don’t fabricate facts to support your argument just because you’re pissed that women don’t find you attractive enough.

                Recently, I took income off my match profile, and my incoming messages and followups have almost completely dried up. This despite being in the best shape of my life, fashionable clothing and good pics, intelligent, good job and background.

                That’s a convenient theory you have there. It’s interesting that when you describe yourself, you don’t include “attractive.”Which isn’t to say that you aren’t. But now that online dating has become more common and accepted, more people are doing it. EVERYBODY’S response rates have gone down because there are more peopleon these sites.

            • hammersandnails Says:

              I can’t believe you guys seriously give a crap either way. You guys sound like girls. Who cares? You really feel like more of a special pony snowflake princess if she writes you a thoughtful email?

              At this point it’s not a deal breaker or anything but if i get an email that a girl did put thought into its a small warning flag. Girls don’t do it because they don’t have to. End of story.

              • ng85 Says:

                I just think it’s a double standard. Guys are expected to be witty, but women can’t do the same? I thought young women today are all about equality between the sexes – Surely something as small as writing a decent message is a step towards that. I’ve even gotten first messages from girls just saying “What’s up?” when their profiles explicitly say they expect witty, thought-out messages. If a woman’s rules for online dating don’t apply to her, who’s to say what other rules she’ll have that don’t apply to her further down the line?

          • anon Says:

            “though most women say they want a sense of humor in a man, they themselves are usually lacking in that department.”

            Women also want height, broad shoulders, physical strength, penis and a lot of things they are lacking in.

            What’s your point?

    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      My experience has been that it doesn’t matter what I say in the first email. I also never talk on the phone before meeting for a date. In fact, I regularly decline dates with women who insist on speaking on the phone, or who have rigid schedules. My first dates almost always lead to second dates. I find dating online to be fairly easy actually. The reason? It’s not because I’m Brad Pitt. It’s because I only contact and date the women who show some interest in me. If you’re struggling, it’s because you’re cold calling and shooting out of your league. That’s it. You know those people who are objectively less attractive than you who persist in trying to get your attention? Well, that’s you to those women you’re contacting. This advice is worth $1000 and you’re getting it for free.

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Thank you. Any time I hear a man or woman bitch about how hard online dating is for them, all I hear is “I’m average looking and shoot out of my league.”

        Like DMN, I only go out with guys that rate me or email me. If they view me, I’ll contact them. I send out very. very few cold call emails. I rate profiles. I let them know I’ve viewed them. I add them to favorites. I do what I can to get attention to my profile and then pick from the people who contact me or show interest. (Yes, even the ones who replied to my profile when I had the casual sex option checked.) If they disregard certain things in my profile, I don’t respond. If they seem flakey or out themselves as a creep, I don’t go out with them. I don’t jump through hoops, I don’t deal with people who don’t respond in a timely fashion, I don’t engage people who can’t commit to a time and date to meet up. You’re welcome.

        • AnonymousDog Says:

          “I send out very, very few cold call emails.”

          Because you don’t have to. You’re depending on someone else to make that first move.

          I’d have a lot more respect for your advice and opinions if you made the effort to meet guys half way by making the first move half, or even a quarter of the time.

          You can say what you want about men and women both “having it hard” in online dating, but men have to invest a lot more time and effort at the front end.

      • hammersandnails Says:

        I could have been more clear. I’m not at all bothered by people less attractive than me who message me. I think it’s a ridiculous thing to get upset about. Same thing for obnoxious emails. I suppose generating some blog fodder gives you a reason, but I still don’t see what sense it makes to be outraged by such a lame email.

        I’m basing my “league” on who I have dated in the past and am not unrealistic in my expectations. I have options and yes I realize I’m making a choice to value looks above initial reasonableness, but that’s life. Once we are having sex I stop putting up with any nonsense. Before then it makes more sense to just go with the flow for two or three dates.

        • Howie Says:

          Hey H&N, that sucks you’ve been struggling with this stuff. Shoot me an e-mail if you want, I’ll take a look at your profile and let you know where you’re going wrong. Might wanna share some sample messages you’ve been sending too. Like ATWYS was saying, most of the stuff women get in their inboxes is pretty pathetic/offensive/weird. Just need to not be one of those guys and you’ll fill up your schedule with dates every week.

          Also if you’re investing a lot in these dates you definitely wanna stop doing that. It’s draining and women find it unattractive. A quick fix for your flaking problem is to do a quick test before you leave. An hour before the date text them with “Hey running 5 minutes late.” Don’t leave ’til they reply. That way you’re not doing a needy “Hi are we still getting together today?” which sort of implies you’re used to women flaking on you. Once you get a little better though flaking will just about disappear though. Take flaking as a good thing. You’re stretching yourself, you’re approaching women out of your comfort zone. I know it’s frustrating, but it’s how you grow.

          • hammersandnails Says:

            Howie, I appreciate the offer, but I think I’m just going to stick to the face to face scene for a while. Thanks though.

    • Howard Says:

      The process is irrelevant. The outcome is everything. Men always did better on the outcomes and online is no different.

      With regards to the process, men always had and still have better chances in offline dating, especially in big cities with lots of people. Men typically approach as many women as they want; women generally wait to be approached.

      So finally a medium got created to give women a better chance in the process. If a man doesn’t like his chances there, he can check out, but for some guys with approach anxiety, online dating has proven to be a boon. And even for guys willing to play along, there are opportunities for success. Even though cold messaging is terribly inefficient, there is still at least a 4% response rate. Stock brokers and insurance agents make a pretty good living on a 1 to 2% rate on their cold calling or cold letters.

      I hadn’t been online for a while. I just got back on. It’s a hell of a lot easier this time, because I know what to do to limit the tedium of the process. It really helps to have a good profile. And it really helps to speed-read women’s profile, so one doesn’t waste time shooting out of one’s league or at incompatible situations. And I am not helping anyone more than that, because it’s a competitive game where I get an edge from doing something the other guys are not doing. Of course I still have to send lots of messages to get responses. My response rate is like 20%. It’s never going to be that of a young attractive woman, but it doesn’t matter. In the end, all one needs is one good woman. One still doesn’t have enough time to date the 20 women who responded to one’s messages.

      Online is also easier if one is doing a lot of offline too. Somehow it gets one’s perspective to be right about the whole process.

  4. hammersandnails Says:

    I do think that you are seriously minimizing the incredibly inefficient nature of online dating for men. I know that you say that you will respond to a simple greeting from a man with a decent profile, but I, and all the men I know have found that enough women will hold lack of effort in an initial message against a man. It simply takes more time for a man to get a single face to face date than a woman. The man must first spend enough time finding enough prospects to gather enough to send the initial deluge of clever emails which will mostly be ignored, then the man must do the dance as long as the woman cares to before getting a face to face. I am not saying that women don’t deal with flakes and time wasters, but I’m saying that a man has more invested. We don’t have the luxury of getting indignant when women don’t conform to our ideals. We expect to jump through hoops, because online dating is a woman’s game. She needs phone calls to feel “comfortable”? Sure. Why not? She can only meet at right after work and I’ll have to cut out from work early to show up frazzled? I’d never plan a date without an hour after work to decompress, but sure. Why not? Not worth fighting for on the slim chance she will negotiate instead of bailing the second things don’t go her way. I’d hate to waste all the effort it took to get this far.

    At the heart of it, you know that at least 10%+ of the guys that email you would absolutely go out with you if you replied to their initial email with. “Hey, thanks for the email. I’d love to grab a drink some time. I’m free day x and day y.” It just doesn’t work that way for guys.

    I honestly do not have any sympathy at all with the above exchanges. You chose to engage these people. You know you could have just hit delete and moved in less than 5 seconds. You choose to be outraged by the worship guy because you are taking his failure to pander to your delicate sensibilities as an attack on your self-worth. I get plenty of emails from women that are objectively much less attractive than I am and so not say what I’d like emails to say. Life is short and I’ve got better things to worry about.

    I think after the first date things get a lot more balanced, and possibly start tipping in a mans favor if he is a good dater, but getting a first date online is just a lot easier and less painful for women.

  5. Zammo Says:

    “Thank you. Any time I hear a man or woman bitch about how hard online dating is for them, all I hear is ‘I’m average looking and shoot out of my league.'”

    Yes and no. I think that holds more for women than men. Women tend to look for reasons to reject a guy. So while they both might be in the same “league”, the woman is doing the rejecting. As a fairly serious online dater, my skin is plenty thick and I get enough positive responses to balance out the “Unread, Deleted” status I read often enough. Eh, life goes on.

    • Scott Hutchins Says:

      Women always find reasons to reject a guy. That’s why I can’t get dates with my women friends/acquaintances, and the ones I meet online don’t want to meet again after the first date, even when I’m willing to give it another try even if there is no spark.

  6. LaMotta Says:

    I sympathize with the things ATWYS deals with in her online dating. That said, I also agree with Hammersandnails that it is probably more “difficult in general” for men. Put another way, the economics of online dating are very poor for men. We have to spend wayyy more time to get anything out of it. I’ve given up on online dating as any sort of reliable mechanism; it’s just something in check in on when I’m bored in the off chance I see a woman who might be a promising lead, in the off chance (say 1 in 10-20) she even responds (then maybe 1 in 4 or 5 that it turns into a date).

    Contrast with the experience of a female friend of mine from back in the early days of OKCupid (2005 or so). I met her on OKC and was friend-zoned (that part isn’t relevant to the story; I know why and it wouldn’t happen again like that today). She was pretty, though not “bombshell” pretty, and of Indian descent (but born and raised in the US). I remember hanging out at her apartment once and she was on her computer. I asked what she was doing, she said something to the effect of “Oh, picking a date for tonight”.

    I was shocked when I saw that she had 10-20 prospects *per day*, of (ostensibly, at least) decent guys who, if not immediately seeking a date, would have jumped at the chance to go out with her on her whim, at basically any time and place.

    At the same time, on the same site, I would have been lucky to get more than a couple *views* a day, probably no contacts, on average — maybe a couple per week, and from girls WAY below my “league”.

    As far as I know, the dynamics haven’t changed much, except perhaps now the eligible ladies are being flooded with more “junk” as more of the world is on online dating. But the “junk” should be easy enough to ignore/discard. The problem of having too few options is, in my opinion, far worse.

    In sum, my response has been to “pull back” and put a lot less into online dating. Like DrivingMeNutes, I just lose interest quickly if the woman wants to “toy” with me and spend aeons emailing, texting, even talking on the phone, before meeting. It’s just not worth it for a guy if you can’t cut through the BS quickly (and I’m not talking about getting laid — I’m talking about meeting in person for a real “date” where you can see what the prospect is like).

    • The D-man Says:

      I’ve had a FWB situation with a girl for a the last couple years who had similar experiences. She didn’t get 20 messages a day, but she got a steady stream and most of the guys looked to me at least like they were worth reciprocating the effort.

      The reasons she gave me for rejecting them Were. So. Stupid. She made so many assumptions about a guy based on a couple of paragraphs, some vital signs and pictures. If she’d met him in real life none of those reasons would likely even have come up. (Note: we met in real life.)

      She has since relaxed her standards and now has better results. And she’s not meeting the dregs of humanity either. We’re talking CXO level guys at public companies. In fact, one of her biggest challenges is these guys tend to have high-stress jobs that take them out of town a lot.

      Oh, and she’s not a supermodel either. She’s cute and fit, but at 44 no longer a pretty young thing.

      • D. Says:

        Your friend rejecting people based on minute criteria actually touches on one of the — in my opinion — serious drawbacks of online dating: all you have is what’s written in front of you, and it’s usually lacking in context.

        When I first started doing online dating, I took the fact that you could use it to filter for certain issues to be a positive. In that sense, yeah, it is, but often it’s most reliable only about the most obvious of issues. Like, if you don’t want to date a smoker, or a vegetarian, or someone with kids, you can filter that out (assuming they’ve been honest in their profiles, and assuming they filled out that info at all). Likewise, if you absolutely HAVE to date someone who has XYZ criteria or mentions ABC in their profile, you can search for it, but often with less success.

        The problem, though, is that you can end up with both false positives and false negatives when all you have is the profile, some pictures, and some demographic info. By that I mean that you can read a profile which looks kinda “meh,” with a few “meh” pictures, and reject the person just based on that, whereas if you met them in person, you might think they’re great. On the flipside, you can find a profile which seems to reflect someone who is EXACTLY what you want…only to discover in person that they have some other critical flaw that they just didn’t happen to mention in their profile.

        I’ve had both happen to me. I’ve had girls whose profiles seemed amazing, met them in person, and for any number of reasons it didn’t work. Likewise, I’ve skipped past people’s profiles and then met them by chance out and about and thought “Wow. That girl was really cool!” to the point where, in some cases, I’ve actually ended up going out with them.

        Much of the problem with online dating is that, I think, it lends itself to creating an illusion that you’re somehow in control of the process. It’s also (again, in my opinion) less effort than trying to go out and meet people out and about. There’s always people you can email (as opposed to spending a weekend wandering around and finding nobody of interest that you want to talk to). There’s always a sense that maybe this week the person of your dreams is gonna pop up on the website or that maybe that next email will be IT. And that has an effect, too, in that I think it tends to make people hyper-picky because there’s this illusion that if they just hang in, the PERFECT person will appear on the website. So, you end up rejecting or passing by people that, in person, you’d be far more interested in.

        Having had enough irritating experiences with online dating (going out with flakes, duds who looked good on paper, and people who really just didn’t have their shit together), and having had the experiences of meeting people in person whom I’d passed by online — and liking them a lot more — I just threw in the towel with online dating.

        I think it can work, but it has to be approached in a particular way. You can’t place too much emphasis on what you see on paper — both good and bad. And frankly, when it starts feeling like a chore to email people or sort through reams of shitty emails, probably the best bet is to disengage from it, and really only deal with it in a mostly passive way, perhaps only skimming the messages or message previews you get in your in-box, and otherwise just ignoring it unless something that piques your interest pops up.

    • ng85 Says:

      I find any social media site (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram) to be the same way. I had a party once at my house, and this pretty attractive girl asked to use my laptop to check her Facebook for something. She was on for maybe 5 minutes, and the laptop wasn’t used again the rest of the night. When everyone left I went onto FB and saw she hadn’t logged out. I also saw she had 4 IM windows open, all from guys asking her what she was up to that night. That’s about a new IM every minute. I did some snooping and saw they all initiated the conversations. I’m lucky if I get 4 IMs a DAY, she got that amount in 5 minutes.

      Also take note of the things girls post on FB and see how many likes and comments they get. I draw and paint in my free time, and recently I posted a drawing that took me about 8 hours to complete. I got 5 likes and a comment going “cool”. Then check out a girl posting a photo of themselves, a photo of a puppy, or a photo of anything mundane they deem to be “cool”. I guarantee they’ll get comment after comment and like after like. There are just so many beta orbiters online willing to praise a girl, hoping she’ll validate their worth by noticing them.

  7. L. Says:

    No doubt that men and women experience the same difficulties and issues in online dating, however, there is absolutely also no doubt that many (if not most) women have it much better. Women are being pursued. Men are not. Women have options … many options. And many women have told me that they get so many responses from so many guys that they need a full time secretary (and obviously therefore can’t respond to or even read all the emails that they get). Another factor, many (if not most) guys look to get laid and/or are nowhere near as selective as women are. Most decent looking women hear from so many guys … better looking, similar looking, and worse looking … that they can take their pick and will never consider even men who are equal to them in looks. They don’t have to! Not to mention that the numbers are in their favor … online men far outnumber women … to begin with.

    As for the behavior that you mention above (“You should really let me worship your ass”), I’m sorry to say that this is the world that results when women encourage this. Maybe you don’t, but in general … they actually reward this type of behavior. There have been countless examples that I can give you … both from my own experience and that of my friends … where women LOVE and reward cockiness and crudeness like this and reject “nicer guys” who are more gentlemanly (and don’t misinterpret what I mean by “nicer guys” … that doesn’t have to mean that a guy has no backbone). You see the big difference? This guy has “an edge” … something that many women insist on. He knows that this is something that will get him laid because most women LOVE IT.

    So it boils down to you can’t have your cake and eat it too. Insist on an edge up front, rather than be intrigued by a gentleman and show willingness to at least get to know him and find out whether he can be fun and maybe a little edgy after you get to know him … and you reinforce this type of behavior. You have to be willing to take responsibility for the societal result of what you create.

    • Janine Says:

      Are you saying most women LOVE being cold-emailed with “I want to worship your ass”? Or are you saying most women might love hearing that from someone they’ve been seeing for a little while?

      While I might not hate hearing it from someone I know already, I will not give the time of day to someone who chooses to lead with that statement. I would be surprised if I am the exception to the rule here. I have to assume that the women you say are ‘encouraging’ this are ones who are not looking for a serious, long term relationship with a man they view as solid and dependable. If women are responding to it, I would bet they’re looking for a hookup and nothing more.

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Agreed. I think these guys are grossly underestimating the significance of the type of woman who responds to that. I have a hard time believing most women wouldn’t be offended and grossed out if a man they’ve never met before used a line like that on them.

        I also think that men who believe that lines like that work do so because they’ve heard and believed stories they here from other guys who brag about what great success they have.

        • The D-man Says:

          Also agree. However, I’ve seen this kind of line work really well IRL when delivered with a sly smile in the context of a few drinks. But it reads terribly on the screen.

      • L. Says:

        No, I’m saying that most women love men who exhibit this type of behavior. It’s positively reinforced all the time. And yes, even sometimes as a first email … but if not at that point, then soon afterwards or even upon a first meeting. And trust me, it’s not because they’ve heard stories from other men who brag about it – it’s because we’ve heard stories from women about it.

        • Janine Says:

          That makes no sense to me. I’m not in your situation so I’m not trying to discount what is obviously true for you and your friends. And, apparently, what works for you. It’s just that it’s so far outside what my female friends and I would want to hear from a man on a dating website or in a bar.

          For reference, we’re all attractive mid-late 20 year olds with college or higher degrees. I can’t imagine any of us positively reinforcing that behavior. Can you share who it’s working with for you and your friends? Also, what kind of relationships are you pursuing with these women?

          • The D-man Says:

            Read The Game. A decent looking guy can say almost anything if he comes across as confident, witty and perhaps unattainable.

            • Janine Says:

              I don’t need to read The Game to know that I”m attracted to confident and witty men. The problem is that the vast majority of guys using lines like “worship your ass” don’t project confidence, wit or unnattainability. They project desperation and crudeness instead.

              Here’s a tip: a confident, witty guy doesn’t need those lines. He’s probably already won a woman over by, you know, being confident and witty.

              • The D-man Says:

                They don’t project confidence because online messaging is a shitty medium for projecting that kind of thing. Guys who send messages like that think the girl will get a sense of an unspoken smile and wink. Of coure, the girl doesn’t see that context and assumes he’s a creep when really he’s just clueless about how things are interpreted online.

                Remember, not even 20 years ago there was no such thing as online dating. Guys are still learning a new set of rules. On the other hand, the filters women have evolved over the course of human history are not attuned to online dating either.

                No one says you have to go out with those guys, but perhaps hit the pause button every now and then before judging a guy based on a shitty communication medium.

                • Janine Says:

                  The vast majority of men who message me don’t make sexualized comments. So when I do get one, I’ll feel free to judge him, thanks. The other 95% of the guys who message me know better than to lead with creepy statements. I don’t think it’s hard for sensible men to catch on to common decency.

  8. Zammo Says:

    “You see the big difference? This guy has ‘an edge’ … something that many women insist on. He knows that this is something that will get him laid because most women LOVE IT.”

    And this is the disconnect between a woman’s words and her actions. The profile headline reads “Looking for a nice guy” yet she responds willingly to a “I want to worship your ass” message sent by a decidedly shady-sounding (in the profile) but good looking guy. Women want a confident man and such overt messages show a kind of warped confidence that is in stark contrast to pleasantly worded messages with flowery compliments and vaguely desperate phrases.

    • Janine Says:

      There are messages in between “warped confidence” and pleasantly worded, vaguely desperate messages. You know, messages where the guy displays a healthy confidence and allows his normal, friendly personality to shine through without seeming like a creep.

  9. Dennis Shelton Says:

    I don’t agree that the problem is “shooting out of one’s league. ” I’m a decently attactive, funny 30 year old lawyer and has been online dating for about 4 years. I don’t go for models, and I dont think the women I message are “above my level.” I’m fact, I tend to go for ladies at my level”” or slightly below, because I care more about their profile than looks.

    Like most guys looking for the real thing, a lot is expected of me; I need to have an engaging profile, great pictures, and my opening email needs to be funny and tailored just to the women’s profile I am messaging. That is a lot of work, whether some women think it is or not. Too boilerplate and she just deletes it, so each time I need to act as if it is the first message I am sending. Too long and I’m desperate or weird, too short and the girl just deletes it thinking I am not engaged enough.

    After all that, I usually never get a message anyway. Now, I know it could be my profile, which I have changed numerous times after consulting with female friends,or my pictures, which i have to use what I got until I find a friend Who can do non-pretentious headshots, but I think a lot has to with women,especially 25 to 33, are on the receiving end, and get to choose only those guys that they feel are major catches, and not just good matches. Plus, I bet a lot look at my height, 5 6, and immediately pass, even though I don’t message anyone over 5 7.

    Even your “problem post” focuses on crappy messages received. I rather trade that problem to the 2-5 percent response rate. That is why I agree guys have it harder, without going into picking the plce, picking up the check, making the first move and so forth that also accompanies being a guy, which I love to do, but still, more on our plate for a girl that may it be THAT interested to start.

    Forgive any mispelligs and so forth. On my phone at a charging station thanks to sandy.

    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      Sorry, but you are shooting out of your league. Of course you don’t think you are, but you are. That’s the point. you’re getting hung up on the stupid word. “League” is not some scientific, measurable quality – you can’t say a person is “at your level.” Oh, she’s as “good looking” as me? That’s nonsensical. League is defined by perceived options – If they think they have a better option than to date you then, by definition, they are out of your league.

      Seriously. Don’t take offense. Just date people who, you know, like you. I promise, things will be much easier. They won’t care that you crafted a perfect email based on their profile. They will respond to hello.

      (P.S. How do you, or anyone, know WHY these women are rejecting you?. It’s like you have a whole scenario in your head about these women who you’ve never met based on the fact that they didn’t respond to an email or approach? No offense, but the fact that your 5’6″ is most likely the reason – not because your opening email missed some magic mark,)

      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        Whoops, I mean “You’re” not “Your.” Sorry. Sandy.

      • Scott Hutchins Says:

        I’m 6’4″, and it’s still rare that I get anything other than spam.

        • LaMotta Says:

          As far as I can tell, standard “minimum” online dating height for guys is 5’11”. Even if the girl is 5’1″, she wants a 5’11″+ guy. I don’t get it. Most of these women would be perfectly happy to get attention from an attractive guy just a couple inches taller than them in real life. Probably just another example of “attribute greed” that (mostly) women exhibit in online dating.

          Have fun continuing to be single, ladies! (LOL)

  10. Chester Says:

    I just read an article on OK Cupid where they surveyed men and women and how they rate each other on looks. Men rated 1/2 the women as below-average looks and 1/2 above-average… which is what you would expect. Women rated 80% of the men below average in looks (and 20% above average). which is extremely harsh.
    This appears to underscore that women have an inflated opinion of themselves online.

    • Janine Says:

      Or it could underscore that men will rate any woman they would sleep with as above average, even if they really think she’s average or below.

      • hammersandnails Says:

        Janine, I’m pretty sure the word “average” does not mean what you think it means.

        • Janine Says:

          Why? I was just trying to point out that it’s not necessarily true that women have an “inflated opinion” of themselves online.

          You have no idea what my interpretation of ‘average’ means, or how attractive the average man is in my city on OkCupid, or how attractive the average woman is in my city on OKCupid.

          • Janine Says:

            I don’t understand the downvotes here. I’m not blaming men and I’m not blaming women. I think both genders could stand to understand where the other side is coming from now and again. I see a lot of “men do this” “women think this” here without any regard for the shades of grey (heh) in between.

          • The D-man Says:

            The definition of average is that 50% fall above it and 50% fall below it. (Okay, not really, that’s the definition of “median,” but most people interpret it the same way.)

            If a group of people — let’s call them women — rate 80% of another group of people as below average, then they don’t actually know what average means. They have a warped sense of reality.

            • Janine Says:

              Thanks so much for the math lesson.

              Here’s something you guys aren’t considering: women rate on the profile AND the photos. If the profile is lame, it doesn’t matter what he looks like. An objectively hot guy with a lame profile doesn’t get a five; he gets a two or a three. A mediocre guy with a lame profile gets a two or a three. I see A LOT of one or two sentence profiles with one or two photos where I can barely tell what the guy looks like. He might be gorgeous, but if I can’t tell then he gets a three.

              Also, this is something I can’t believe you’re not considering: the pool on OKC is not a closed world. I don’t rate guys based on the 10 or so guys in Quickmatch. I don’t compare one to the next. I compare them to the men I know in the real world. The most attractive guy in Quickmatch won’t necessarily get a five if he’s a three in the real world, and he absolutely will not get a five if his profile is on a one-star level.

              • The D-man Says:

                The OkCupid study was done on photos alone. There were no profiles.

                  • The D-man Says:

                    They don’t talk about it in the article, but in order to seed their data set they set up an online game where you looked at pictures and rated them solely on looks. (They had to do this. Otherwise they would not be able to isolate looks as an independent variable.)

                    The incentive was that if you rated at least 30 pictures, they guaranteed you would be rated as well, and they would tell you which of your photos was best (and which ergo you should use as your main photo). And if you were rated more attractive than average, they would tell you that as well. Basically, Am I Hot or Not in the pursuit of science.

                    I played the game and changed my main profile photo based on their feedback. I now use that photo as my head shot in any online profile — LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter etc.

                    Then they cross-referenced those pictures against their messaging history and found that — no shit sherlock — better looking people get way more messages and replies. But where as the numbers for men rating women follow the expected bell curve, women rating men were significantly skewed.

              • hammersandnails Says:

                …and she doubles down on wrong. Ahh.. god bless em.

            • Janine Says:

              Here’s another point you’re overlooking: if I come across a very good-looking guy in Quickmatch but it’s clear from his profile that our personalities are not in sync then no, I don’t rate him a four or five. Why? Because then he’ll get the notification that I rated him highly. If I’ve already discerned that we’re not compatible, then there’s no sense in having OKC send him a message that I’m interested when I’m not. Therefore he gets a three.

  11. Jim Says:

    “This is a guy I met several years ago on another website. He ended up sending me a text after we hooked up…”

    This says a lot about the pathology of online dating.

    If men want to see the “like” clicks, women are after the number of messages they receive from admiring men. Dopamine all around. No woman who signs up for online dating is naive enough to believe that if she looks good she won’t be propositioned and contacted just for her looks — which gives women’s cynicism about men an even more distant and impersonal shot in the arm.

    As for social media in general such as iPhones, etc., it’s curious to me how many nice looking women are out in public with their eyes cast downward and glued on the screen a foot in front of their faces, ignoring the world. Do they then go home, get online, and gripe about who’s lurking on the ‘net?

  12. PhillyGal Says:

    I don’t know that it is as easy as men think it is. Do we get daily emails? Yes. But that doesn’t mean any of these men are both physically attractive AND have a profile that is of interest. I’m not an unrealistic woman and I am not demanding. If I received an email, today, from a man I found moderately attractive who sounded interesting I would meet up right after work.
    But it is still hard for us. I do some “cold-call” emails, but often only email guys who have rated me and/or viewed me multiple times. Even then I can’t guarantee it will end in a date (and I’m not the one being flaky, trust me). The whole medium is just flake-prone.
    I am still shocked when I see guys on OkC whose response to the question “How willing are you to meet someone from the site?” is: “Hesitant, but I’d consider it.” What’s the point of having a dating profile if not to meet someone?

    • LaMotta Says:

      Just curious: how often do you get a response from guys you “cold email”? (Ones that are actually active profiles, mind you…)

      I agree with your last point; I think that’s weird. Maybe it’s a machismo “I’m too good for online dating” sort of thing. Of course, there they are..

      By the way, I get “rescheduled away” or stood up on for a first date about 75% of the time. What is your actual-meetup success rate with guys? Again, not arguing, just curious..

  13. Scott Hutchins Says:

    The only time I’ve ever sent a woman I didn’t know a message even mildly naughty (and never as crude as “I want to worship your ass”) it was in direct response to something of that nature on her profile. Not that it matters–99% of them don’t get responses and the ones that do have all either been spammers or attacked me as a creeper for noticing that on her profile and leading with it.

  14. Eliza Says:

    On-line dating is way too time-consuming, filled with too many games, and false identies, and B.S. – both from men and women (from what I hear). And plenty of people are just on-line hiding behind their laptops…scared to come out of hiding. It’s all a waste of time, with endless emailing. Don’t have time for that. Easier to just go out–smile, say hello…and start a conversation like that. no need to sell/market yourself on some profile, and take photos and answer ridiculous questions online…only to get people who just want to text. No thanks.

  15. M Says:

    Im 99% sure online dating is harder for men than women. As a guy I have had a profile on Match longer than I’d care to admit – lets just say in that time I’ve lived in 3 different cities. In that time I have written emails to lots of girls, and I have gotten a certain number of responses. I have never actually met anyone off that site. While living in the smallest of the 3 cities, I also created a female profile – basically a female version of myself (no pictures) to see what kind of reaction it would get. In the month or so it was up, I got more responses to that profile than I have gotten in several years as a guy [with pictures, and Im decent looking]. I just started a similar experiment on eHarmony, and so far, the results are similar. Women are much more likely to both a) be contacted by someone else and b) receive a response to anything they send out. Fact. Even after you take out the responses from d-bags, the ladies are still way ahead. I am keeping detailed notes of my experiences on eHarmony and when Im done, Moxie willing, I will sum it up and post it here.

    • Chris Says:

      Women have it made when it comes to dating – hands down. Oh YES, all of you ladies complain – ” I can find a good guy” – Most of the the time you don’t even give a guy a chance unless – Example: they are a certain height, and have the perfect look, a certain amount of money etc, etc. As a man, none of you ladies ever go up to men and try to pick them up – do you? didn’t think so. It’s much easier to pick and choose when your options keep coming. It’s just like a contractor who needs to make money – would it be easier for people to come to you with work or would it be easier for you to go out and find every single job for money – if you need to think about this answer – there might be something else seriously wrong.

      I give all of you suffering ladies a challenge – take six months and and try and pick up a man every week so, you can see what it’s like to taste some rejection – than multiply that rejection by 1000 and you’ll have the experience of a single man.

      The women of today ( single, under the age of 35 ) are extremely vain, self centered, not sure what they want, easily distracted ( list is to long to mention) – it’s not that your bad people, it’s that you think you are so, special that no man is good enough to have you ( probably shows like the Kardashians and Jersey Shore – keep you in this mind set ) – unfortunately it’s a formula for failure. If you don’t take the time to really give a person a chance – you have no one to blame but yourself for not finding your soul mate.

      Gentlemen, if you are looking for a real women – go to another country. If you are lucky enough to find a decent, caring, single girl – marry her immediately – don’t wait, if you do wait, she’ll be gone before you know it.

      As for the rest of you ladies, you’re doomed – normal, average guys don’t get you attention, only rich, pretty boys – who will eventually cheat and leave you with heart ache.

      Changing your thinking will most likely change your results !!!!

      That’s my opinion – tell me why I am wrong. LOL

      • Elizabeth Says:

        Hi. I’m not sure if this is helpful to you or not, but I find that kind of attitude incredibly off-putting. If a man starts telling me that all women under the age of 35 “are extremely vain, self centered, not sure what they want, easily distracted ( list is to long to mention)” then he seems like someone who mansplains (tries to explain things to women as if they don’t understand). Or tells me the ways of the world or the “truths” of the world without considering that mine may be different. So you may seem like a great guy on paper, but as soon as a you starts condescending to me and telling me all women are this way or that way, I’m gonna run for the door. To me that’s a huge sign of a guy who isn’t willing to take my opinion seriously.

        This is my list of ‘needs’ for a guy:

        1. Have a college degree
        2. Have a job or the ability to get one
        3. Be considerate of others
        4. Have humor and intelligence

        Here are my “wants”

        4. Have a very similar sense of humor to my own
        5. Be reasonably attractive (and no, not Hollywood attractive)

        That’s not a lot. A guy might even meet some of those right off the bat, but if he starts spouting some stuff about how “women have it so easy” or “women are so stuck up” I will bail. He sounds bitter. That’s a guy who sees things only in black or white and who I probably can’t count on to listen to me or see my side of things. I don’t make across the board statements about men and I would expect them not to make similar statements about women.

        • PhillyGal Says:

          Hey I don’t even need the degree! Lol.

          I agree that his attitude about women is off-putting. But again, we’re just “complaining” or being “too picky.” Let a woman who is 50 lbs heavier than he is attracted to or who has 5 kids come his way and now who is the picky one?

          Look, everyone has preferences. We’re human and we have things we are innately attracted to. Sometimes for biological reasons, sometimes for societal ones and sometimes because we are nuts. That is life. It works both ways. Do you know how many profiles I’ve read that say “no black chicks” or something of that nature? That’s rejection before I’ve even said a word. But again, that’s how it goes.

          We take the good with the bad. We are willing to deal with the rejection and the fading and the flakiness in the hopes of finding someone cool. At least, I am.

        • Eliza Says:

          I agree with Elizabeth. Any man that has such a negative attitude and creates a negative energy about women in general, or start whining about how “hard men have it in the dating world”…is extremely unappealing to mostly any woman that is confident and has something to offer. I don’t require a degree either. In my opinion, some people are formally educated, yet lack manners or any common sense…and then you have some men that are not formally educated, yet very business-savvy–love what they do, are great at their occupations, and are ambitious–without that piece of paper or plaque on their walls. A college degree today is not a true indicator of success (but that’s my opinion). And I agree with PhillyGal…we all have preferences and are entitled to like what we like. The bottom line is – dating – online and off – is difficult as get you older…for both men and women…and hey, if you are not attractive and out of shape, and don’t have your “act” together, whether it be financial or otherwise, you WILL have more difficulty meeting someone. I keep hearing that men are “visual”–guess what? So are women! Rejection is part of dating and part of life….you need to roll with the punches, and what matters ultimately is finding that one person who does accept you – with all your good points AND faults. Because we all have them. But having a negative attitude about women and life in general will get you nowhere.

          • Elizabeth Says:

            I agree with Eliza and PhillyGal. Everyone has their preferences and it’s not necessarily ‘pickiness.’

            Also, I agree that a college degree isn’t the be-all, end-all of indications of success and intelligence. If he’s otherwise accomplished and intelligent, then by all means, sign me up.

        • The D-man Says:

          Men who are successful at dating learn not to say off-putting things. It does not mean the underlying facts are invalid.

          I have been rejected by hundreds — and I do mean hundreds — of women. Just in the past week without even really trying I got rejected at least a half-dozen times. I have also been accepted by a lot of women (and yes one did accept me this week).

          Most of my guy friends think I’m some kind of Casanova who always has the perfect line at hand, but the truth is I’m just willing to take more risks than most. I don’t think a lot of women realize how hard that is.

          Though I do agree that Chris needs to adjust his attitude. The less you stop worrying or over-analyzing why some entitle princess said “no,” the easier it is to remember that there are still 3 billion other women out there. And most of them are looking for a man.

          • M Says:

            I think the first thing you said was really important. I agree with what Chris said, but when Im talking to a girl, she will not see that, as I hide that. That attitude comes from rejection and from the absence of a girl in my life. But, if Im talking to a girl, in that moment I am with a girl, even if just for 5 minutes, and that gives me hope. That hope is all I need to put away the bad attitude and be not just neutral, but positive. Now, if she rejects me, then we’re back to square one. But the point is, when I talk to them, they dont see any negative side of me, and Im sure Im not the only guy playing it that way.

        • M Says:

          Your list sounds all well and good, but its not. I would say I have your 4 needs, and that Im reasonably attractive; not knowing you, I cant say if we have a similar sense of humor. Up until this point, I think you are like a lot of girls. But after that, it all breaks down. If I were to meet you, talk to you for a few minutes, and then ask you out (assuming you’ve verified at least your needs, or have reason to believe they’re met), I’d bet money you would then find some excuse to not go out with me. This is what many girls do and it prevents you from starting many potential relationships.

          • Elizabeth Says:

            M, those are my online dating requirements. If I receive a message from the guy who meets the things on the list and hasn’t sent me a weird, creepy message, I go on a date with him. It’s on the date that I try to discern if we are compatible or not.

            It’s not like I’m wiling to start a relationship with someone just because they meet the list requirements. That would be insane. I need to gauge personality, goals, ideals, etc., in person.And I do that in person.

            If you like you said, I met you on the street and you asked me out? I probably would say no because I don’t like being approached by strangers on the street. If I met you through friends, I would be more inclined to say yes. But remember that since it’s in person, I can already begin to tell whether we have compatible personalities, etc., so if I were to say ‘no’ it’s because I know we’re not compatible.

            I know this isn’t what you’re trying to suggest, you or any of the other guys on here, but it’s almost like you all think that all women are obligated to date any man if the man is interested. That’s not how it works.

            • M Says:

              If you know thats not what Im trying to suggest why go there? Im not suggesting you jump into a relationship with a guy not having met him, I was thinking more if I met you in a bar and we started talking. Beyond that, you say right here that your requirements are not only the list(s) you posted above, but that you need to see other things like personality, goals, and ideals. These are just some of the other things you conveniently left off your list to make yourself sound more reasonable. How many more are there?

              I once saw a study done on what people look for in a partner. It said the average guy looks for 7 things in a girl. It didnt say what those 7 things are, just that there are 7 things (the actual things will vary from guy to guy). It also said that the average girl looks for 300 things in a guy. I wish I had the link to this, if I did I’d post it.

              • Elizabeth Says:

                I did not conveniently leave them off my list to make me sound more reasonable. Are you telling me that you can’t see how it could be a problem if I meet a guy off Match or OkCupid, but on the date he tells me can only be serious with a Jewish girl (which he did not disclose on his profile or via message)? Or if he starts stalking me after two dates? Or if he tells me he’s glad we went out because we’re both white and he’s tired of being messaged by black chicks? I’m supposed to forge ahead in those relationships just because they have a degree, a job, etc.? Because all of those things have happened to me.

                There are a thousand reasons people might not be compatible in person. No chemistry, his lifetime goal is to quit his job and move to a cabin in the woods, he’s a rampant misogynist, she’s racist, she wants to have 14 kids and you only want 2, one of them has a sexual fetish of which the other wants no part, etc.

                So since you seem to think my list is unreasonable, why not just keep adding to it: not be a member of an incompatible religion; not be a crazy racist; not be a crazy stalker. I’m sorry if those are too much for you.

                • M Says:

                  If you go out with a Jewish guy (who can probably seen on your profile you are not Jewish) and on the date he tells you he wants a Jewish girl and you are not one but you are happy with what he is like, then it is HIS call whether your not being Jewish is a big enough dealbreaker for him to not proceed (note: I’d be saying the exact same thing if the genders of the 2 people involved were reversed, FYI). If he decides its not that big a deal, and he’d like to continue to see you, why wouldnt you go out with him again? Otherwise, if you dont want to see him again, fine, but at least have the decency to admit that there’s something that you didnt like about him. There are times when we need our partner to accept something about us; there are other times when we need our partner to like something about us; the later are much fewer and farther between than the former. If you need him to like that you are not Jewish, then I would say that’s being unreasonable. As for these other things, yeah, they are problems that come up. But its just like anything else – if you have a problem with them, then you dont go out with the guy again, but you probably wont find out about them until after you are already on the date.

                  • Elizabeth Says:

                    “As for these other things, yeah, they are problems that come up. But its just like anything else – if you have a problem with them, then you dont go out with the guy again, but you probably wont find out about them until after you are already on the date.”

                    So it sounds like you’re agreeing that my screening for personality, goals, and ideologies are reasonable to do in person. Which is what I do. Not sure why you were disagreeing with me or objecting to me doing that when I wrote it above.

                    • Crotch Rocket Says:

                      it sounds like you’re agreeing that my screening … are reasonable to do in person.
                      It’s not about whether those things are reasonable. It’s that you claimed to have only four “needs” and two “wants”, then later admitted you actually have other criteria that weren’t on your list.

                  • Elizabeth Says:

                    You’re focusing in a very theoretical fashion on the situation with the Jewish guy. It was very clear-cut. He had already decided that we wouldn’t be serious; he was clearly telling me that we could have a short term dating/sexual relationship but he would not be staying with me long term. I was looking for a long-term relationship, so I knew our goals weren’t compatible. It’s quite a gamble for me to expend the energy on dating him, hoping he’ll change down the road, when he’s already been up front with me about what he wants. You’re right that it was his call, but he’d already made it before I’d arrived.

              • Elizabeth Says:

                Oh, and if I turn down a date from a guy in a bar who otherwise meets my requirements, it’s because I’m not attracted to him. Take your statement from above:

                “If I were to meet you, talk to you for a few minutes, and then ask you out (assuming you’ve verified at least your needs, or have reason to believe they’re met), I’d bet money you would then find some excuse to not go out with me. This is what many girls do and it prevents you from starting many potential relationships.”

                They’re not finding ‘excuses'; they’re simply not attracted to you. It goes both ways. I’m nice, funny, intelligent, and attractive, but if I strike up a conversation with a guy in a bar and he’s disinterested, then I know he’s not attracted to me. It’s simple.

                • M Says:

                  Then why didnt you list that you needed to be attracted to the guy in either your list of wants or needs? Attraction doesnt matter to some people. By your leaving it off your lists, you made yourself sound like one of them. Also, you are only proving my point by showing me that you would find other reasons not on your lists to not go out with me. Also, I’d like to remind you that as for your wants, you would go out with a guy who didnt have them – that’s why they are wants and not needs.

                  • D. Says:

                    You’re making a bit of a logical leap here. “Attraction” is a broad term and it goes beyond merely the visual of the person in front of you (whether in person or on a computer screen). Example: you see a girl online who has an amazing photo. In person, yes, she looks like the photo, but she has a voice like fingernails on a chalkboard. You are no longer attracted to her, but it has nothing to do with her looks. In fact, you might still say that she is objectively attractive on a physical level, but that you weren’t attracted TO her.

                    Ultimately, that’s the important thing to remember in all of this. You seem to have the attitude that women always find reasons not to date you, so, surely, Elizabeth here would, too.

                    First, people’s reasons for being interested — or not interested — are highly variable and subjective. While it’s true that some people are hypercritical (sometimes as a perverse way of protecting themselves from getting their hearts broken — usually again), in many, many cases a person who rejects you wasn’t into you for…well…who knows what reason. You can’t let that get you down or you will slide into bitterness and cynicism (which I’ll get to in a second). It’s better to say “Ok, they weren’t into me. Someone else will be,” and keep looking around. If you can’t do that, just take a break and find your fun doing something else.

                    Second, if you do allow yourself to become bitter or cynical about the reasons people reject you…..that itself will become the reason people will reject you. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Case in point: A few years back, I grabbed drinks with a girl I’d met online. She was VERY cute, had a well written profile, and seemed to have similar interests. In person, though, she was incredibly negative about..well..everything. This sucks, that sucks, she’d had such awful experiences dating, etc., etc. She came across as bitter, cynical, and otherwise just a huge downer. After an hour and a half, I politely excused myself and never spoke to her again. Why would I? I don’t want to spend time with someone who’s bitter like that.

                    If you go into a date or approaching a woman saying “This will go horribly and you’ll probably reject me just like everyone else does,” guess what: she will live up to your expectations because she doesn’t want to date a sad sack, the same way you probably wouldn’t want to date Debbie Downer who thinks existence just sucks.

                    This is why I say, if you’ve reached a point where you see every woman as just another person who’ll reject you…take a break, man. You’ve hit the point where you’re running on empty and dating has become a chore rather than a pleasure. I’d bet most people here have hit that point once or twice in their dating histories. Certainly I have. A break always helped or at least didn’t hurt.

                  • Elizabeth Says:

                    I recommend taking a good, hard look at D.’s second point to you.

            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              it’s almost like you all think that all women are obligated to date any man if the man is interested.
              That’s not what I’m reading here at all. Project much?

            • AnonymousDog Says:

              But I’m guessing that you would not contact send an initial message to a guy whose profile indicated that he met your list of requirements.

              That’s why a lot of guys think women have it easier.

      • Eliza Says:

        Chris–you need to seriously “rethink” your thinking and negative attitude. Your complaining and whining also comes across as “poor me”…sad sack. You need to start looking at the glass half full. Women want to be around a man that has a positive energy. It’s no wonder you have had no luck in the dating arena. Get accustomed to the rejection, because with an attitude such as yours…you are guaranteed to get nothing but rejection. You need to be less judgmental of “all women”…stop generalizing.

  16. Obviously Says:

    The economics are obvious. More men, less women = women can choose men who would be out of their league on the street.

    If it were the other way around – more women, less men – the genders and the complaints in this thread would be reversed.

    We’ll see this happen in-person in China and India as gender demographics are going nuts there – and guess what, women will be dating way out of their natural league there as well.

    Men, focus on dating in person. If you must *must* date online do it as a bonus, not the method.

    • M Says:

      Wrong. In the general population, there are equal numbers of men and women (at least in the US). Even if there were more women, it wouldnt matter much. Where I went to college, there was a 2:3 guy to girl ratio. It was still equally difficult to find someone for a relationship. I think this is because a lot of girls choose not to play this game and dont even try to meet someone for large portions of their lives because they choose to focus on other things, effectively taking themselves out of the dating pool. In contrast, guys never really stop trying to find girls, even if its just for a one night stand.

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        In the general population, there are equal numbers of men and women (at least in the US).
        Across the US as a whole, 50.8% are women. However, that doesn’t tell the whole story. Males outnumber females in age groups 0-4, 5-9, 10-14, 15-19, 20-24, 25-29, and 30-34, while females outnumber men in all higher age groups. There are also major geographical differences, with women generally outnumbering men in blue states and vice versa in red states.

        Also, even small differences in percentage can be significant. For instance, say that there are 110 men for every 100 women in a given city. Subtract out the 80 of each that are married, cohabiting or just coupled up and you get 30 single men for 20 single women–and 10-15 of the latter are single mothers who are not dating at all, leaving it at 3-6 single men per available single woman.

  17. Speed Says:

    Online Dating Summary

    Search Methods
    I almost never agree with DMN, but he is correct here in the method he recommends: online target people who show some interest (ex: message you, click or return-click on you, “favorite” you, etc.). It saves an enormous amount of time. A small bit of cold-calling is okay but with the same expectations you bring to buying a lotto ticket.

    Nature of Men and Women
    In my experience, just as men run the gamut from Jack the Ripper to Gandhi, women range from Mother Theresa to Octomom. Our mothers, sisters, daughters and nieces are women. Online or off, I don’t think they’re all out to crush men or seeking James Bond. Likewise, I don’t think all men are nerds, playboys or bums. Our fathers, brothers, sons and nephews are men.

    Easier: Men or Women
    OK, assume women have it much easier online dating. So what? Everyone has it easier than someone else in some respect. The universe is set up that way and we can’t change it. Maybe I’m too Old School but a man has to fight and challenge, find solutions, not complain about long odds and playing fields that aren’t level. We love football games where each team fights hard until the closing second. We applaud even the loser in those matches. Conversely, no one likes a team that complains their opponents are stronger, faster, more experienced, etc. Fight until you win or you’re knocked out.

    Good luck to everyone!

  18. myself Says:

    If I end up single again the future, I will never, and I mean never do online dating again. I do, and have done much better in the real world, and would continue to do the same again.

    • Eliza Says:

      I fully agree. I used to do the online thing…never again. Too much back and forth. Games. And I’m sure there is ample games coming from women as well….seeking validation, etc. Not into all that.
      Just go out – be social, talk to people, and eventually you wlil meet someone. When it’s meant to be.
      That simple. And if you don’t like going out–learn to find ways where you can meet others – while doing something you love. Get involved in your community. Join some type of club – so at least you are engaging in something you enjoy.

  19. ng85 Says:

    While you’re right that those messages were from weirdos…But at least you’re getting messages and having conversations. Women don’t realize how invisible men are both in real life, and online. Even a dumpy woman can get message after message from a guy. I suggest you try setting up a fake dating profile using photos of an average looking guy, and you’ll see how stacked the odds are in women’s favor. Message 10 women and see how many of them actually respond. If they do respond at all, see how long it takes for the woman to disappear completely and stop talking with you.

    And besides, if you’re so turned off by the guys who are messaging you, then why don’t you delete your profile? Something tells me you actually enjoy the attention. After all, guys are lusting after you, and it tickled your fancy enough to write an article about it.

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      But at least you’re getting messages and having conversations.

      Yes, I’m getting messages from socially inept and aggressive clods. In what world is that a positive thing or something to envy?

      Message 10 women and see how many of them actually respond. If they do respond at all, see how long it takes for the woman to disappear completely and stop talking with you.

      I don’t have to. I’ve messaged 10 guys and received no response or had guys drop out of conversations. This is what I mean – EVERYBODY has the same experience when all you do is cold call. You’re not experiencing anything uncommon. You’re just choosing to look at it that way to justify your own frustration and inability to compete with other men. It’s like the women in this thread talking about awful online dating is, how it’s tedious and time consuming and there’s so many games. Translation: I had no luck with it because the men I wanted didn’t want me or I went after the charmers who used me.

      You’re emailing women who don’t want you because you don’t want to accept that the women who email you are probably the best you’re going to do.

      if you’re so turned off by the guys who are messaging you, then why don’t you delete your profile?

      Because I use this profile for the profile reviews and because I get dates from it. The point of the post was to show you guys what sort of “attention” many women get on that site. You think they’re listed as “replies very selectively” because they’re picky. No. They probably reply very selectively because they gets dreck like this.

      Something tells me you actually enjoy the attention. After all, guys are lusting after you, and it tickled your fancy enough to write an article about it.

      The whole point of the article was to show the men who whine about how online dating is a waste of time for men that women don’t have it any easier. You’re no better than all the deluded women out there who bitch that all men want is sex. You guys have been spewing the same shit over and over to each other in an attempt to sabotage each other because you want them to be as unhappy as you.

      • HammersandNails Says:

        I for one do welcome messages from women who are below my standards. Certainly better than the usual empty inbox.

        I took the things people have said seriously and went back and compared. The quality of the women I date and who want to date me is much higher then the quality of women I can get a profile view, let alone a response, from on OKCupid. Case close. It’s a fools errand.

        I’ve even been messaging girls I would never hit on just in an attempt to get a response. How embarrassing. Even more embarrassing? They only respond about 10% of the time.

        My league in real life is 7-8 and I occasionally get lucky with a 9. My online league is apparently a 5-6. Maybe I just come across better in real life than on a screen. So be it. I feel better about walking away. I’m not bitter. My dating life is great. It would have been nice to be able to set up dates on tuesday night without leaving the house, but if its not meant to be, so be it.

        I love women, I love dating. I hate online dating. It’s cool.

        PS. Some of the guy’s in this thread are pretty terrifying in their warped, bitter, small minded world views.

        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          Maybe your meter is broken. Mine says I’m an 11 trapped in the body of a 7.

          • HammersandNails Says:

            Ehh…I’m setting my meter based on my offline successes. If i compare the women that will respond to me on okcupid, vs the women who have wanted relationships with me there is really no comparison. Whatever my number is, for me, personally, its 2-3 points lower online than off and I very much enjoy going out and hitting on women and find online dating to be unrewarding drudgery.

            Once you write it out, the answer is obvious. I should go out on more tuesdays. :)

        • ng85 Says:

          This is exactly what I’ve found. I’d say I’m a 7 – Not Brad Pitt but not hideous, either. I used to be able to meet some good looking girls on OKCupid maybe 4 years ago, but lately it’s just been slim pickins, even though there are much more women who have signed up in that time. I’ve also tried messaging girls I didn’t really find attractive, but even that didn’t lead anywhere. However, I find it’s a lot easier to meet girls in person for me now. Lately I’ve been getting numbers from girls who are better looking than any girl I’ve spoken to recently on OKC. About a month ago I slept with a girl who was easily a 9 who I met in person, and since then I’ve basically retired my OKC.

          Here’s my theory about why online dating is so skewed like this – It’s an online buffet. If you’re in a big city you’re pretty much just a fish in a sea of thousands of other guys, and women have all the power when it comes to choosing. I’ve found that you have to jump through so many hoops just to get a second or third message out of these girls. And when you have people messaging you day in and day out obviously expressing interest in you, you’re going to get a big head. I’ve noticed that it’s become more difficult to meet girls online in the past year or 2. What’s happened in the technology in that time? The smart phone was introduced! Now women can check their Facebooks, Twitters, and online dating sites anytime, anywhere. Now a woman doesn’t even have to be at home to check her inbox and find guys hitting on her. Even if the guys aren’t her cup of tea, I’m sure it inflates her ego and makes her feel attractive. And as Mr. Wombat said, women also get thrills when they get likes and comments on Facebook. 24/7 they can be showered with praise!

          And in online dating sites you’re nothing more than a photo and some text on a screen. It’s hard for people to view other people as “real” in this situation, so it’s easier to disregard someone or blow them off or be rude to them. Most attraction has to be established in person. Yes, you can be attracted to some text on a screen, but being there physically adds a whole other dimension that a dating site can’t reproduce. How they speak, walk, move, smell, etc. could make or break your opinion of someone. Online dating is usually seen as an easy way to meet a person. For me it just feels like a middle man, and I’ve found I’m much happier getting over any nervousness I have over the opposite sex and going out and meeting them in person.

          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            I’ve found that you have to jump through so many hoops just to get a second or third message out of these girls.

            Those girls are probably using online dating sites. You realize that. right? All these rare breed 9s you’re meeting ARE the 6’s and 7’s you encounter online.

            You seem to be desperately trying to make a distinction that being able to meet people offline means you’re/they’re more attractive. You can rationalize all you like. These alleged 9s you’re meeting offline probably make up the 6s online. You’re not factoring in that YOUR perceptions are also skewed, which is why you had the experience you had with online dating.

            • Chris 2 Says:

              “All these rare breed 9s you’re meeting ARE the 6′s and 7′s you encounter online.”

              Personality wise I would agree, looks wise I would disagree.

              I think the majority of the time the reverse is true for looks. Those 9’s and 10’s online have usually had professional photographers hitting them all at the right angles, with professional lighting. In real life they are about 7’s or 8’s. (While the normal 7-8’s online are usually about that.)

              Then you have stupid stuff like old picture and photoshop.

              The 10’s in real life are 10’s online. Every once in a while you may get someone who is unphotogenic, but it is not the norm.

              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                The 10′s in real life aren’t online.

                There. Fixed that for you. Those 10s online are either bots, spammers or people looking for attention/freemeals/sex.

            • hammersandnails Says:

              6 is barely cute and a 9 is stop traffic attractive. There is always some wiggle room due to taste, but no man is confusing a 6 with a 9.

              confusing a 6 with a 9 is like confusing a ferrari with a honda accord, or an ugg with louboutin. It’s so far fetched to me that I’m guessing you mean something other than the way I am interpreting it. We are talking looks only here? I really don’t even understand what you are trying to say.

              • ng85 Says:

                I agree, if someone has an attractive face or body, it will translate well into photos. If they’re not photogenic then they might not look all that great, but you can still see an attractive quality to them. Meanwhile, someone who doesn’t have an ideal body or who has a less than stellar face can hide it through selective angles or Photoshop, but it’s still a facade and you’ll know in the back of your mind that something’s off. And if someone needs to essentially lie about who they are, then are they really worth dating?

                The girls I’ve met in real life recently tend to have attractive faces and slim or athletic bodies. But a majority of the girls I’ve been meeting online tend to lean towards “average” or “curvy” physiques. I can sleep with a 9 within a night of meeting her in real life, but I struggle to get an email response from any girl over a 7 online. This is my personal experience, but I’ve found that the power is skewed with online dating. And because of this I just don’t find online dating to be worth it.

                • D. Says:

                  Sounds like part of the problem is how you’re looking at this.

                  First, you’re breaking folks down into some objective, mathematically ranked system. “Oh, she’s a 9. That girl? Yeesh. 5 at best, and that’s in low lighting,” etc. This implies that there’s some “proper” approach to how interactions with people in whatever “league” are supposed to go. Like, you’re only supposed to date at or within a few “ranks” of yourself. 9s don’t go out with 7s and 7s aren’t “supposed” to reject 8s.

                  Second, you’re looking at this as a matter of power. “Who hold’s the power? Does she have the upper hand or does he?” This, from the get-go, assumes that interaction between men and women is some sort of struggle. Is getting someone’s number an exercise of power? Is acting on your attraction — or not acting on your attraction, for that matter — an exercise of power? If a woman to whom you’re not attracted approaches you and tries to chat you up, are you exercising power when you (hopefully politely) decline?

                  I also don’t see how this “skews” the power online. If you find that you do better offline than online, maybe it’s just because you’re a better conversationalist than a writer. Maybe the online medium just doesn’t lend itself to your strengths. I hardly see that, however, as “skewing the power.” Actually, it seems like a real burden to view romantic or sexual interaction that way, particularly in those moments where it doesn’t go the way you want.

            • The D-man Says:

              It’s true that the really hot girls aren’t doing online dating. This past week in NYC I picked up a solid 9 (she’s a fitness model) who is 14 years younger than me while charging my phone at the Post Office across from Madison Square Garden. There’s no way in hell I would’ve met her online.

  20. Chris 2 Says:

    Online dating sucks for men. There are marks against men that cannot overcome online.

    I am 5′ 6″
    I don’t have a college degree
    And I am not photogenic

    “My league” online is 3,4 and maybe 5’s. In the real world my league is 7,8 and when I am lucky a 9. (I know personality counts, but I am making a point.) In real life I can overcome my faults, online does not give me that option, plus I am a horrible picture taker. So why would I want to spend an hour tayloring a message to mostly get rejected by a girl I would not normally even talk to in real life? It is not worth it.

    Plus, there was the OK Cupid study released a couple years ago saying that women rate 80% of the men below average. Think about it, 80%, below average. You have to be in the top 20% of the male population to be considered average on OK Cupid. No Thank You!!

    • Janine Says:

      Seriously, stop focusing on that study. Do you know what else that article said? That 2/3 of men primarily message only the top 1/3 of women. So 2/3 of women are hardly getting any messages because men in their league are shooting higher. Men and women are both shallow, fine. But don’t pretend it’s just the women.

      Also, when I do the Quickmatch, I read the profile as well as look at the photos.
      1. If a guy has a well-written profile along with several clear and attractive photos, I give him a 4.
      2. If a guy has a well-written profile and is smoking hot, I give him a five.
      3. If he’s average looking but has a hilarious and charming profile, he gets a four because his personality is more important than his looks.
      4. If a guy is attractive but has a lame profile, he gets a three or I skip him until he bothers to flesh out his profile.
      5. If I think someone is really objectively unattractive, I skip the rating because I don’t want to make it any harder for them by adding to their low scores.
      6. I give 1s and 2s to men who have one photo and an empty profile. Bottom line: I never rate on photos alone. I ALWAYS read the profile.

      • Matt Says:

        The reason men shoot higher is simply because of the effort of work involved in online dating. Most of the tips I’ve seen for “winning” at okcupid involve updating your profile several times a day and sending out dozens of messages per day. AND your profile and messages have to be excellent. I, personally, am not going to put out World Series effort for Little League results.

        • Janine Says:

          Oh Matt, thank you for the laugh. I’m dying over here. Men on this thread are bitching about how women never respond to them and it’s such a pain and it’s not worth it. Then you pop in and admit that you’re shooting out of your league because it’s not worth it to go for people in your own.

          Um HELLO? You’re surprised it doesn’t work for you online? Newsflash. You’re doing it to yourselves. Those 8s and 9s you guys are messaging are being approached by other 8s and 9s. Of course they’re not responding to the 5s, 6s, and most of the 7s.

          • ng85 Says:

            Any person, male or female, wants the best mate possible. So of course we’re going to try and shoot for the 8’s and 9’s and 10’s. But why is it when a woman does this she’s said to be strong and only wanting the best that she deserves, and when a guy does it he’s shallow or a loser? There are way too many double standards in dating complicating things.

            • Janine Says:

              “Any person, male or female, wants the best mate possible.”

              Fine, shoot for the 8s, 9s, and 10s. But the quoted statement applies to those 8s, 9s, and 10s. They’ll select the best mate possible from the 8-10s, not the 5-7s. I don’t understand how you guys aren’t seeing that.

          • The D-man Says:

            And yet he lands 9s offline. It proves the point: women have an advantage online. I’m not whining about it, just acknowledging reality.

            I definitely have an easier time scoring with hotter women offline. However, it takes longer because most of the attractive women I meet IRL have boyfriends or are married. I can message ten reasonably attractive, single women in 10% of the time it takes me meet a similar number of single women IRL.

          • Matt Says:

            No, Janine, that’s not exactly what I said. One fellow who gave me advice said that “to win” I would need to message at least 30 profiles a day, and each message had to be drafted, rewritten, in short, these messages should be excellent. When I pointed out that I didn’t think there were 30 women in my area that I’d be interested in messaging altogether, he then said I needed to lower my expectations, which seems counter-intuitive to me.

            Essentially, if I have to put the exact same amount of effort into getting the attention of a 4 or 5 as I would an 8 or 9, then why not go for the 8 or 9?

            • Janine Says:

              How is what you said different? You’re still messaging out of your league because you think you’re entitled to the hottest woman possible. Do you TRY to message within your league? I can almost guarantee that your response rate would be higher if you did. That’s Common Sense 101.

              • ng85 Says:

                All of us have messaged within or below our range at some point. But it’s still difficult for men to get responses back, even with women below their league. I’m sure women are shooting out of their league, as well, when responding to messages. If a woman got, say, 20 messages a week and 3 out of those 20 are from guys above their league, they’re going to focus on those guys, and guys below that be damned. Likewise, I’ve been able to get 8’s and 9’s in real life. Why should I settle for a dumpy 6 on OKCupid when I can do better offline?

                I also like how you’re trying to tell me I’m wrong when all the anecdotal information I’m providing is from things I’ve found in MY experiences and MY life. Just because it doesn’t gel with you doesn’t make my experiences any less valid.

                • Janine Says:

                  What are you talking about? When did I tell you that you were wrong? I was talking to Matt.

                  • Matt Says:

                    Then I will talk. To be successful at online dating, or even just to try and be successful, you need to care about the results. It’s easier to put in that effort with a “oh, she seems cool” than a “meh; she’ll do I suppose”. Caring about the results is key to getting results that you care for.

                    I am not going to use the “shotgun” approach, messaging any woman in the hopes of getting a date, as that seems INCREDIBLY disingenuous to me. Looks and personality (or as much of that that can be gleaned from a profile) need to average out to be at least a 7 before I shoot off a message.

                    • Janine Says:

                      Matt. You’ve made that point several times: you want the best for yourself. I get it.

                      MY point is that women want the best for themselves, too. You don’t mention what you are, but the lowest you’ll message is a 7. If you’re a 6, fine. There’s a lot of crossover and you see 6s and 7s together all the time. But if you’re a 5 or below, your response rate will be terrible because the 7s WANT WHAT YOU WANT. They want the best mate possible, and they’re not going to invest the time in 5s or below when they have abundant attention from 7-10s as well as the odd 6. Why would they?

                    • D. Says:


                      It sounds like you genuinely are looking for something serious, rather than just “a date.” If that is the case, then here’s my advice: focus your efforts in the real world and treat online dating as a “background process.” Leave up your profile, but otherwise approach it passively. I would imagine that you probably do get the occasional email from women, but most of the time nobody that you’re all that interested in. I’d bet you pore through the profiles out there, looking for the precise mix of elements you want, and when you find it, you send an email that shows some effort. Maybe you get a response, maybe you don’t. When you go out, maybe you hit it off, maybe you don’t.

                      If this is sounding familiar, then I’d say from my experience, online dating isn’t really designed for someone like you. To the contrary, online dating is designed for people who have that “Meh. She’ll do” attitude, or who are just looking for “a date,” rather than, say, “a significant other.” If you’re just looking for “a date,” you can find it by sticking to pretty minimal criteria, and being flexible about those at times.

                      If that doesn’t sound like your thing, then I’d say focus on meeting people in the real world, ideally through your existing social networks. If those aren’t big enough (e.g. “I tried that. All my friends’ friends are in couples or are women I wouldn’t be interested in”) then expand your social circles. I don’t mean going out and meeting women to date. I mean going out and meeting new people you get along with partially because you enjoy doing that but also because in so doing you expand your available pool of people who can say “OMG wouldn’t Matt be GREAT with Suzanne? We totally have to fix them up.”

                    • The D-man Says:

                      Solid advice from D. I focus most of my efforts on meeting women IRL, but every few weeks I go online and message a few. I think of it as entertainment. Once I stopped dreaming of finding the perfect girl (online or off) and just focused on having a great lifestyle, things got a lot easier for me.

                    • Matt Says:

                      The last time my friends set me up with someone, she was married, because they were too lazy too ask three simple words- “Are you single?” So, yeah, I’m a little gun shy about the social circles approach.

  21. HammersandNails Says:

    You guys are being ridiculous applying the term “cold call” here. It’s all cold calling here. All you are saying is that you want to let the other person do the cold calling. I understand there are degrees involved, but somebody has to make first contact.

    The one thing I will grant you is that a profile view is not necessarily an indication that someone is interested in you, but it certainly is an indication that someone is looking to actually meet someone now. Dating has ups and downs and nobody downs their profile because they already have plenty of dates at the moment, so looking at people who are actively looking is a great idea.

    disclaimer: I apparently fail at online dating, so take my advice as such :)

    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      My ridiculousness level is a 6 online, but offline I am only a 4.

    • Speed Says:

      All these male “9s” hanging out on a singles blog! Awesome! But I doubt any guy who claims he is a “9” offline but a “6” online or whatever. One of my best friends is truly a 9: athlete’s body, chiseled looks, 6 feet 2, and so on.

      When we’re out together, it’s like I’m out with (a tall version of) Tom Cruise. Women flirt very aggressively, sometimes leave him their number, and so on. He’s never considered online dating because he simply doesn’t have to. I’m afraid I have to (unfortunately) agree with DMN again: if you’re rating yourself an “offline 9” but not literally beating off women with a stick every time you visit a coffee shop like my friend, check your ratings meter. It’s difficult for me to imagine why a true male 9 would bother with online dating because he’s got a buffet offline already.

      I’m about a 6 (online and off), maybe 7 in a very nice suit. Using a variant of DMN’s method, I now save an enormous amount of time and frustration and date 7s (in my view) with almost a 0% flake rate and first dates mainly turning into seconds. Instead of whining about women (and, remember, your mother/sister is a women), it’s best to man up.

      • Speed Says:

        Incidentally, if you’re looking for anything beyond a one-nighter, it’s important to look for qualities beyond the “looks scale.” Eventually, we all become “3s” on the outside anyway. Character lasts, looks don’t.

      • Chris 2 Says:

        I don’t think any guy on here claims to be a 9.

        I am a 6 or low 7. I am definately nothing special in terms of looks. I usually date 7’s every now and then I go after an 8 and every now and then it works. I never go after 9’s but every once in a blue moon they ask me out.

        I can not get over a persons little check list online. In real life those things don’t matter as much, or you can ‘make up’ for them through other means. I barely fit the checklist of half the ‘average’ (5’s) girls, let alone get a response from them.

        Again personality definately counts, much more so than looks. (However you cannot be repulsed by the person.) That is my biggest asset, but online it does not show through. I am definately not Terry Pratchet when it comes to writing. Dry humor and sarcasm is often lost online, body language is gone, their is no ‘situation’ to relate and react to and make small talk.

        Online dating is like a job search for a male. Fill out your resume (your profile), include a head shot (Thank god I don’t live in LA were headshots are required for jobs,) then send it out with a taylored cover letter. And chances are you are going to be rejected. On the female side would be like the employer, sorting through tons of unqualified employees. (Thinking about it I had the exact same complaints while I was job hunting.) I would still rather be the Employer in the situation than the job applicant.

        Real life is such more organic where you can shine in place people don’t expect.

        Sorry, I started to ramble. Online I am a 3 or 4, off I am a 6 or 7. So online it feels to even get acknowledge is to shoot way below my ‘league’ or I can talk to people in real life and hit at my league and sometimes above.

  22. Chris 2 Says:

    At the end of the day, I see a lot more guys complain about online dating than woman. When woman do complain about it, it is usually in response about male complaints. (Like this article.)

    I am not saying women have it easy online, but most I know do not abandon it like their male counterparts out of frustration and getting nothing from it. When woman do leave online dating sites, it is because they have usually found somebody. I don’t have any statistics to back this up, but it is just a general observation.

    So just maybe there is something wrong with it from the male perspective? Maybe the guys are “whiny” for a reason? (Oh, thats unheard of, complaints for a reason!)

    From the majority of male comments on here, it sounds as traditional means of dating works for them better than online. If the system is broke for you, don’t use it. If it does work, good, go for it.

    For me it is not worth the time or effort only to get shot down by people I would not normally date. At least at a bar I can turn to Stella. (Stella out of the tap is awesome, Stella out of the bottle sucks.)

    Anyways I have said my piece and then some. I am done.

  23. Chris Says:

    From the experience I have gathered, most women in the initial stages of meeting a man – could either take you or leave you (including online). I have heard so many women say, “Well if it’s not meant to be, I am perfectly fine with being alone – there is nothing I can do” – Which is pretty idiotic. It gives the impression that there has to be a lighting strike of love that hits them from above in order to get their attention and that they are just a innocent passerby’s waiting to be struck – give me a break.

    Unfortunately it takes work from both sides – especially in the beginning of a relationship. – Have you ever heard the saying ” What you give, is what you get”? – None of you ladies should ever complain about finding someone new, most of you ladies have a list of at least 10 guys (minimum) that you have rejected over the past year – and the list probably grows on a monthly basis – tell me I am wrong?. Most men do not have a list like this – there is your difference – I should say, in a woman’s defense, that it must be tough choosing a man – when so many men want your attention. How do you choose? It’s better to just ignore most of them – I guess.

    Of course, there are all kinds of factors that change the dating dynamic – a persons looks, attitude etc, etc. – but as a general rule, you ladies don’t know how easy you have it when it comes to meeting men.
    Try to keep in mind that MEN HAVE TO WORK VERY HARD FOR A WOMAN”S REJECTION – It is incredibly difficult to get your attention and keep it – most women don’t have to deal with this aspect – there is another difference.

    I am a educated man, single, about a 7 in looks, in shape etc, etc – so, I realize that NOT all women are as I mentioned above and NOT all men are as I mentioned above – but the truth is the truth – the scales are tipped in the ladies favor – nothing can be done – most women were raised to be princesses – it’s what they expect – guys, if your not a prince, good luck getting their attention.

    • Janine Says:

      I think your problem is that you’re shooting for high maintenance women. Most women were not raised to believe they are princesses. High maintenance, difficult women might be, but there’s a world of down to earth and reasonable women out there, my friend.

  24. The D-man Says:

    WRT to women getting over-validated online I think this post sums it up nicely.

    Heartiste is a misogynist with a seriously warped view of the world, but underneath the testosterone there are often nuggets of truth.

    • Janine Says:

      I can’t even get through that article; it’s a misogynist piece of garbage. That guy doesn’t understand women at all. No wonder he’s bitter. He hates women and projects anger; they respond by rejecting him. What a shock.

      • The D-man Says:

        He’s a misogynist who gets laid on a regular basis. I don’t approve of guys like that, but I’ve hung out with some of them and been amazed at how successful they are with women. Why would he change something that works?

        • Janine Says:

          Because guys like him and guys who follow him don’t understand women at their core. Instead of seeing complex human beings, they see women as prizes that they deserve to sleep with.

          If you can’t see why that article would be incredibly insulting (not to mention wildly inaccurate) for a woman to read, then you don’t understand women. And your failure to understand them and respect them is why you struggle with dating. Women are not stuck-up bitches just because they dare to have self esteem. No woman is obligated to sleep with a man just because he wants her to, which seems to be unfathomable to PUAs.

          • ng85 Says:

            “Because guys like him and guys who follow him don’t understand women at their core. Instead of seeing complex human beings, they see women as prizes that they deserve to sleep with.”

            So women have other purposes? Tell me more!

          • hammersandnails Says:

            I agree with you, but you ladies need to start putting your vaginas where your ideology is more often. For some reason, as much as you ladies like to proclaim your disgust with men like that, they are typically getting laid, so your argument falls on deaf ears. I can introduce you to quite a few guys who are sweet, kind, not bad looking, and view women as complex human beings, who haven’t gotten laid in 6 months.

            Ladies: stop fucking “that guy” and he will disappear. Sorry, I spent years doing it nice guy wrong and after adopting a healthy dose of “can’t beat em? join em.” I couldn’t be happier with the results. Sorry for being a douche.

            • Janine Says:

              I can’t believe the guys who comment here. I’m over it. I’m just gonna take my ass right on out of here and go out on a date with a nice, normal guy who doesn’t tell me what to do with my body or say creepy things to me. Best of luck to you jokers. I’m sure you’re all raking in the top-notch ladies.

              Take care.

            • Matt Says:

              hammersandnails- you’re a pig

            • D. Says:

              Depends on what your goal is. Do you just want to get laid? If so, then being a cocky jackass can work — with certain women, mind you, not all of them. I mean, yeah, “game” and “PUA” stuff works sometimes with some women, but I think it requires a particular mix of elements. For example, “negging” someone would likely only work on someone who is already pretty insecure. Now, if all you care about is getting laid, then you probably don’t give a rat’s ass about her personality, how insecure she is, how educated she is, etc., etc., etc. Who cares, right? She’s just someone to bang.

              On the other hand, if you’re trying to actually find something serious, being a douche isn’t going to get you very far. Women respond to confidence, yes, but not bravado or jackassery. There’s a difference.

              • The D-man Says:

                Negging is oversold. However, withholding attention can work very well. If I’m in a social situation (like at a bar) and a girl starts geting cold on me, I ignore her for a while and go chat other people. Social proof and all that.

                • D. Says:

                  I’m not saying that withdrawing a little can’t pique someone’s interest, but that’s not the same thing as walking up to someone and giving them a backhanded compliment as part of a calculated effort to break down their self confidence and then build it back up with sexual advances. Which, I’m led to understand, is how negging basically works.

                  If a girl gives you the cold shoulder and you simply shrug and wander off to chat with other folks…that sounds more like not wasting your time on someone who isn’t interested in you. If they later act more interested, then you go from there, but it’s not like “ah ha, I’ll walk away and THEN she’ll come back to me.” More like “Ok. Not getting anywhere with this girl. Oh hey, those people look cool. I’ll go talk to them.”

                  In one instance you’re actively trying to engineer a particular outcome. In the other, you’re just doing your thing and having a nice time. If it works out in your favor with the previously uninterested girl, great. If not, who cares? You’re still having a good time.

                  • The D-man Says:

                    We’re talking about two different things. Push/pull only works once you’ve established some baseline level of attraction. You’re talking about when opening someone. I used push/pull last week to great effect, but I didn’t use that tactic until we’d already been hanging out together for a few hours.

                    Negging is incredibly misunderstood. People think it’s an insult that lowers her value. That’s not how to neg. Teasing is a better word. A neg should always get a laugh from the target.

                    Example: Those are really nice nails, but my alarm bells are going off. You’re screaming “high maintenance” to me. (grin and wink).

                    The idea is to show that you’re not putting her on a pedestal.

                    • D. Says:

                      That may be the idea, but most of the people I’ve seen talk about it — from either end of the transaction — see it more as about breaking down someone’s confidence by identifying a likely insecurity, so that they’re more likely to see continued attention as positive rather than annoying.

              • Crotch Rocket Says:

                being a cocky jackass can work — with certain women, mind you, not all of them.
                In my experience, it works best with the hottest women–and that’s what the cocky jackasses are after in the first place.

          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            Because guys like him and guys who follow him don’t understand women at their core.
            He doesn’t care about “understanding women at their core”; he cares about getting laid, and his approach apparently works. Again, why fix it if it ain’t broke?

            • D. Says:

              Right. I mean, if your goal is PURELY to get laid, then the only thing to understand about a woman is the “how” — namely “how do I get laid?” It’s all about trial and error and stimulus and response, not what’s driving all of that. “When I say/do XYZ things, she is more/less likely to have sex with me. Ergo…” And that’s it. That’s the calculus. Her inner monologue is only relevant insofar as it increases his chances of having sex, and then only if it requires minimal effort. If it’s easier to just act like a douche and get laid, then that’s what he’ll do and he won’t give a damn what she’s thinking about.

              Of course, if you’re looking for something more than just a warm body in your bed, these techniques probably won’t work particularly well and you actually will need some understanding. But then, for a guy like this, that’s not his goal.

          • The D-man Says:

            Because guys like him and guys who follow him don’t understand women at their core.

            So what?! He gets plenty of action. The moment I stopped worrying about what women want and started thinking more about what I want, things got a lot easier.

            Which is not to say long-term relationships don’t require mutual understanding, only that baseline attraction does not. When it comes to dating, I focus more energy on being attractive than understanding the little snowflake at her core (whatever that means).

            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              I focus more energy on being attractive than understanding the little snowflake at her core
              It should be pointed out that if she doesn’t find you attractive at the outset, then you won’t get the chance to understand the little snowflake at her core because she’ll have nexted you in favor of some guy that she does find attractive.

            • Elizabeth Says:

              You sound pleasant. I’d totally date you.

    • Obviously Says:

      What that post doesn’t realize is that the self-esteem provided by social media doesn’t reach a person’s core. A girl I dated recently is a minor celebrity on facebook, she posts 20 times a day and averages 100 likes / 15 comments a post, almost all admiring, 50-50 from girls and guys. She is so popular there that there are fake profiles of her made by fans, and they’re 90% positive (a few nasty ones). However she’s never been in any movies, she’s popular simply on Facebook.

      Should this drive her self esteem through the roof? Well, it would – if she could accept their admiration as admiration for her. However, her Facebook account is an image – it is an idealized version of her – and as such their admiration is only to an idealized version of her, not her as she really is. She’s been maintaining this persona for a long time, online and in person – to others and herself – and it’s masking a terrible catch 22 – the more popular her persona, the less self esteem she actually feels.

      This is true to a varying degree for everyone on social media – people post the photos of themselves they like, they think twice before blurting things out – and suddenly their profile becomes an idealized version of themself.

      Deep down, the recipients of social media praise know that it’s not praise for them, but praise for their image. They have to fight harder to maintain that image both online, and in person – and this doesn’t make them happy.

      Spend too much time maintaining an image – for others or for yourself – and it becomes a disorder. It is called narcissism, and narcissism does not mean that you love yourself, merely that you spend your time trying to BE someone, rather than trying to DO things. It is pitiable, extremely difficult to recover from, and it is slowly happening to more and more of us every day.

      Narcissism is a side effect of social media – but more so a side-effect of advertising, which teaches you to crave identity. Real people don’t need “identity”, they’re too busy doing things, engaging with the world, seeking things they want. “Identity” is something that is hyped endlessly in advertising, in order that you feel something missing about yourself, and spend money to fix it.

  25. Paul Murray Says:

    “You know, I read comments like this and just roll my eyes. Seriously..when did you guys get so whiny? Not just whiny but annoying and weird.”

    Ahh, shaming language. Where would we be, what would we have to say to one another, without it? In that sentence we have a Code Blue, Possibly a Code Green (not sure where “annoying” fits), and “weird” is a bit of a wildcard. If it’s meant to mean “mentally a bit of a worry” then Code Orange.

    See http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/ for the list.

    Men think women have it great, women think men have it good. Maybe the gender wars are all just grass is greener, blown out beyond the point of ridiculousness.

    What else?

    It’s great that you could actually recognise and deal with my point about social media (even if not the notion of an equivalence between it and porn/games). That’s what makes your blog popular and worth reading.

    (You know what else gives a cheap neurotransmitter hit? Food.)

    • Janine Says:

      That statement IS annoying and weird. Why shouldn’t Moxie express her opinion about it? It’s not shaming, it’s not Code Blue, Code Green or Code Orange. It’s her opinion that she has a right to express and write about on her blog.

      A man coding my language like that would have me running for the door.

      • Matt Says:

        There’s a difference between “expressing an opinion” and “making a veiled insult”. If Moxie is entitled to open how she did, then Paul is equally entitled to express his dissatisfaction with her opening.

  26. Elizabeth Says:

    Crotch Rocket, I can’t reply to you in the initial thread. I was not trying to be vague in my list. I initially posted my six wants/needs without clarifying that those are what I use to decide whether or not to go on a date with someone from Match or OKCupid. I then tried to clarify:

    “M, those are my online dating requirements. If I receive a message from the guy who meets the things on the list and hasn’t sent me a weird, creepy message, I go on a date with him. It’s on the date that I try to discern if we are compatible or not.

    It’s not like I’m wiling to start a relationship with someone just because they meet the list requirements. That would be insane. I need to gauge personality, goals, ideals, etc., in person.And I do that in person.”

    I agree that I wasn’t clear in my first message, but I wasn’t trying to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes or keep other ‘requirements’ hidden. I assumed we were talking about first dates from online resources.

  27. Josh Says:

    I haven’t been doing this for very long, but my observations are as follows.

    Take everybody and divide into the top 10%, middle 80%, bottom 10%. We won’t even bother talking about the bottom 10%–those are the drug addicts, crazy people, losers, social lepers, etc. The middle 80% are just average people. The women clearly win in this group, hands down. They get large number of messages and have to sort through them. They’re actively pursued by men in all groups. They have a lot of options. It’s a lot harder for the men in this group, the regular dudes. They have to message large numbers of women and may or may not get a good response.

    Then there’s the top 10%–the hotties. They’re the most desirable people. The highly attractive women, and the good-looking, articulate (meaning he can actually type online), successful men. In this group, I actually think the men have a distinct advantage. They command a reasonable response rate from most of the women. They don’t get a response from every women they message, but they are able to get enough that they can pretty easily begin to fill their calendar with dates every night. And why the hell would these men only settle for banging just one chick? He will also occasionally get messages from women in the average 80% that he may or may not respond to, depending on her attractiveness. They top 10% of women never send out messages.

    The super-attractive 10% women have it harder, I think. They get absolutely drowned in stupid messages from nearly every dumb guy in each category. Some are ridiculously sexual, some are just stupid one-line messages to fawn over her… “ur gorgeous baybee.” This, however, is enough to drown out messages from the highly desirable guys since the woman has to unfortunately sort through everything. She’d actually be better off acting more like a guy and just pursuing who she wants rather than just trying to sift through all the garbage. Not sure how much this actually happens though.

  28. Steve Says:

    My two cents? Unattractive women might get played by more attractive men for sex. Unattractive men might get played for dinners and comedy clubs by the more attractive women. It’s sad when either sex manipulates someone that is less attractive to them for personal gain. I’ve had hot mommas show interest in me months after I initiated contact. I felt like a woman complaining about the guy that treated her the same way. And you know what? That hot momma lamented about her cheating ex and the alimony he isn’t getting paid. Why did she discuss this on a 2nd date? Because she knew I was a ‘nice’ guy and was hoping I’d help her with her pile of crap months later after I first wrote her. How insulting. Knowing who to trust for both genders is no easy task.

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