How Come Some Women Are Never Satisfied?

Name: CityGal
Age: 35
State:
Question: Hi Moxie,

It’s been awhile since I wrote in, and I thought I’d turn to you since this situation has my best friend and sister stumped. I’ve been dating someone since mid-September and we agreed that we only wanted to date each other exclusively about a month after dating. He invited me to meet his parents last week, It was my first time meeting his parents and it could not have gone better.

Things were definitely on a positive note after the dinner with his parents (the two of us were back at his house), and I decided to broach the topic about an trip (outside of the country) that he has planned for New Years (his guy friends and friends who are girls are coming). Note: I’m not worried about the girls on the trip (I have met them and know that there isn’t a romantic interest, primarily because most will be with their S.O.s on the trip.)

I mentioned that I understand he had the New Years Eve trip planned before we met, and I completely understand if he can’t extend an invitation to me, but if there’s still room in the place where he’s staying, I can look into getting a plane ticket. I was completely taken aback by his response. Rather than explain that there was some conflict with space or logistics (I thought maybe it had something to do with money?), he said that he (I’m quoting him) “didn’t feel like we were ready to spend 9 days in a foreign country together.” He said he’s “not ready to take that step yet.” I, of course, felt pretty badly about his response, but I tried not to overreact. I didn’t really know if I should be feeling disappointed or not, given we’ve only been out for two months now, but part of me thinks it would be a natural progression to spend New Years together, especially if there are girls and guys involved in the trip and we would be at the four month mark, at that point.

We spoke again later the next day and he reiterated that he doesn’t feel ready for a trip outside of the country with me and the reality is that if he was “head over heels” he would invite me to go, but he’s not….My heart dropped. So I said to him that I am going to see other people and I think that he should too. He responded to this by saying that he doesn’t want to see anyone else besides me, but it makes sense to take a few steps back and be less intimate ….He said that in an ideal world, we could carry along from where we left off once we are done with NYE (meaning January) because NYE will be a lingering shadow above our heads for the month of December. Talk about confusing!!! So since then, he’s been reaching out to connect with me via text, IM, etc and I’ve been responding positively to him. I don’t want to overreact, but I also want to look out for myself and my well-being and not go down the path with a commitment-phobe or someone who is unsure of progressing with me. Thoughts?

 

 

My thoughts are that this guy was upfront and honest with you. You broached the topic of going on the trip he had already planned months in advance because you wanted to spend NYE with him. He told you, in what sounds like a respectful way, that he’s not ready to be with you for a consecutive amount of time in a foreign country. Which is an extremely reasonable and mature response/reaction.

There’s a big difference between spending a weekend together and traveling together. Not just traveling, mind you, but traveling with a group of people in a country that is thousands of miles away. There would be no escaping you should things take a bad turn.  I get hives just thinking about that. For you, it seemed like a no brainer. Not so much for him. For him, it was a possible mistake that could add undue stress to the relationship and force him into a position he’s not quite ready to be in just yet.

He had just introduced you to his parents – a milestone – and you were pushing for another one mere hours later. You essentially invited yourself on a trip he had planned and made him feel cornered. You put him in an awkward position. No matter how he answered that question, he was screwed. That’s why he backed off.

Now you’re doing what many women do and creating the back story to explain why the guy she’s been dating all of two months isn’t as eager to move things along as she is. Men are allowed to be cautious. He’s already given you exclusivity and a sit down with the folks. That should have been enough. But you wanted more. You wanted a trip and NYE. You don’t accrue points with each milestone, you know.

The problem here isn’t that he’s a commitment-phobe. He committed to you, so I don’t understand where that comes from. The issue is that you weren’t satisfied with what he had already offered you. You wanted more. He is taking a step back for the next 6 weeks because, I’m guessing, he doesn’t want to deal with any possible drama that could result about that trip. He just wants that trip to be over so you guys can start over where you left off. Basically, he’s avoiding you until Jan. 1st.Which isn’t a great sign. He doesn’t trust that you’ll be able to let the trip issue drop. So rather than listen to you or be forced to break down and invite you, he’s staying away from you. You need to examine that decision of his very closely.

It makes no sense that this guy would say he’s not head over heels for you yet agree to exclusivity after a month and introduce you to his parents. There’s an inconsistency here. I’m going to take a wild guess and say that the decision to be exclusive and to meet his folks was yours, yes? You’ll say no, and you’ll believe it, but given the content of this letter I’m guessing that you’re not even aware of how pushy you are or can be. For example, you sent me this letter twice because I hadn’t answered it soon enough for you. You want what you want, and I get that. Believe me. But guys just don’t care for that. Men have no problem being challenged. They just don’t like to be badgered or bullied.

You need to temper your more demanding side and allow people to come around to things on their own (reasonable)  time table. None of this is to overlook the fact that this guy quite possibly is a pussy, of course, who can’t stand up to a woman. He very well might be. Or it could be that you are..a little scary and he’s afraid of you. Not sure. I certainly wouldn’t want to be with a man that couldn’t put me in my place should that need to be done. It sounds like this guy was just hoping you’d forget about that trip and never bring it up. Then, when you did, he decided to take a step back and advocate for “taking a break” of some kind so that he could enjoy the following 6 weeks and come out unscathed.

Those are my thoughts.

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64 Responses to “How Come Some Women Are Never Satisfied?”

  1. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    I see utterly no evidence of commitment here. Introducing a woman to your parents is not of any great significance unless the person introducing you think it is of great signicance. Personally, I don’t. My parents are not the Duke and Duchess of Monaco. Hundreds of women have met my parents and my family because they are a part of my life. So, I would place zero significance on that.

    However, if a guy tells you – out loud- that he is not “head over heels” for you, I would take THAT as a signifcant sign that he is not interested in anything long term or serious with you. True, this was revealed over a spat over his New Year’s plans, and maybe he was annoyed and his admission was a result of your undue pushiness. But that doesn’t make it any less true that he’s not serious about you. That’s the reality that you must deal with. Why chase someone that doesn’t want you?

    So, yeah. Move on.

    • jeff Says:

      I completely disagree. Saying he is not head over heals sounds like he was being cornered by someone who was pushy and he is trying to explain that he is just getting out of the gate in his relationship with her. I mean she should give this guy a break. Asking to join a trip to europe after two months is a HUGE deal. She is being super pushy. He has been honest. Just because he’s not “Super romeo and juliet” infatuated with her doesn’t mean he’s doesn’t want her or is not serious about her per se. It means that they’ve been dating two months and they are still in the beginning of a relationship. In fact it really seems unrealistic to take his hesitation as a sign that he isn’t serious given the short timespan of the relationship. Quite the opposite, being serious about a girl means that that you are seriously discerning a long term relationship with her. Jumping too quickly to having her join such a huge trip would not be showing much thought. That he is looking for an LTR and is exclusive should be enough to show he is serious at this point. What matter is that he thinks she is a possible partner and is gradually giving it a chance. She is acting way too insecure and is trying to force a hand. She seems fixated on feedback to placate her doubts about herself, but doesn’t seem to realize that those signs that she forces will come across as forced

      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        There is a difference between saying “I am not head over heels for you” versus NOT saying “I am head over heels for you.” This wasn’t a mere failure or omission to say words showing he was serious – this was an affirmative rejection. Words are sometimes actions. Its an OBVIOUS rejection. Pity you can’t see it.

        There are two issues, and people are conflating them. The OP may be pushy and offputting. She may have a horrible personality that drives men away. That’s one thing. I’m not sure I see evidence of that. Fine if you do. But, it’s entirely another thing to say that, in this case, her wanting to join him on New Year’s Eve drove him away. I’m not prepared to make that jump.

        I was recently seeing a woman for a few months, about once a week or so, and she told me she wanted to see more of me. Did I feel pressured? Absolutely. But, was she wrong for asking? I don’t think so. The bottom line is this guy did not want to spend New Year’s Eve with her and, in my opinion, it’s because he didn’t like her enough or see enough of a future to plan even that far in advance. Not BECAUSE she was too pushy. And, if anything, her pushiness forced him to reveal his lack of real interest. She exepdited the inevitable end to the relationship.

        What did I tell that woman who wanted to see more of me? I told her essentially that we weren’t on the same page, in so many words. And things ended between us. It wasn’t because she asked, it’s because I wasn’t really interested in the same thing as she was.

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          First of all, men don’t typically use phrases like ” head over heels.” I realize that she put that in quotes but I don’t doubt for a second she took that out of context. I don’t see why a guy would agree to be exclusive and introduce her to his parents if he weren’t genuinely interested in her. He didn’t agreed to spend New Years with her because he had a trip abroad planned several months previous.

          • DrivingMeNutes Says:

            What difference does it make if he used the words head over heels? It sounds like he said something to the effect that he would invite her IF he were head over heels for her. The specific words used are not important. He is telling her he doesn’t like her enough. The same reason he doesn’t want to make plans with her for New Years – he didn’t want to bring a “girlfriend” on his trip with his friends. He didn’t like her enough. If she never asked, she would never know. But, she’d get a pat on the back from the guys here for being so accomodating and easy going. Not much of a consolation prize.

            I agree with your advice to the extent it is,in general,: “stop being rude and pushy and annoying and unlikeable.” I disagree with the advice to the extent it is: Be more easygoing with this guy so he will like you because guys are simple creatures that need to be handled delicately.” I just fundamentally disagree with that.

            • jeff Says:

              I think you are missing the point. It’s not a simple matter of bringing a girlfriend on a trip. He made previous plans over several months for a LONG trip in ANOTHER COUNTRY. How is that not a HUGE deal? There are so many ways this can backfire. For most people, asking to join that trip after only two months of dating would be either rude or presumptuous. There is alot that can go wrong and its a big step. That’s something that you do with people you’ve been dating a year or two. (at minimum, several months). Balanced people do not rush into 9 day trips in a foreign country with a girl he met two months prior. In fact, doing so would either be rash or suspicious.

              As for the comment about “head over heals”,he was probably speaking in hyperbole. (I.e. if I were a billionaire and had a ton of extra cash I might do x, but ..) I don’t think he imagines a real person actually fitting that ticket in that timespan of dating. Think “if the stars were aligned and a sign rose down from the heavens” I would do x. Now does he has reservations about her? Sure, but he should. Dating is a trial run, and given the life of the relationship, HE SHOULD still be discerning. How sold do you expect him to be about her?

              The key problem I have with your argument is that it doesn’t take into account what is natural as a timeline. Let me give you an extreme example to highlight what I mean: If they were only dating for one day, someone could make the same argument about him “not being serious.” If he said I’m not head over heals for you after dating her a day, would you take it to mean he wasn’t serious about her? Would you take his not inviting her to mean that he wasn’t serious about her? No!! Why not? Because they were only dating a day and that is too soon to expect such a level of investment.

              • DrivingMeNutes Says:

                Not to belabor the point but, yes. If a guy tells you after even ONE date that he is “not head over heels for you” (or anything to that effect) you should not date that person. I assure you I’m not missing the point.

                • The D-man Says:

                  Eh, maybe. I’ve been in love five times and in two of those cases it took me several months before I really felt it deeply (in one case close to a year).

                • M Says:

                  I’d like to see the thumbs up/thumbs down breakdown by gender on this one.

                  • VJ Says:

                    I think that there’s a great deal of ‘magical thinking’ here on this one. It may or may not break down by sex, but clearly rationality may not be playing a large role here. Which might be the point.

                    There’s actually many ways & styles of love. Many of the folks who are happily and long married may not have been ‘head over heels’ in love with their spouse just a few months after first dating. So statistics might tell us something. More couples take longer to get married, (if this is indeed where the OP imagines she’s heading), and more are in fact cohabiting longer before marriage too. So the clear trend is to be dating longer, and for longer ‘engagements’ or delays until marriage. So there’s little reason to suspect that anyone Should be ‘head over heels’ over anyone after just a month or so of ‘exclusivity’ in dating. It may indeed be relatively rare. And yes, any indications of being overly ‘pushy’ or other less than attractive or desirable personality ‘quirks’ in a prospective mate would cause anyone some pause to reconsider.

                    One of the most attractive aspects of my spouse is her relentless attachment to reality. It really helps immeasurably to working out lots of problems that arise in everyday life. I’m fortunate that she matches my ‘style’ as far as thinking and reasoning are concerned, and has a similar personality style. If she’d pulled the same BS on me as the OP did on this dude when we’d just been dating a few months? It’s unlikely we’d be married, or married as long as we have been. And don’t even get me started on the familiar delusional fantasy that we’re all supposed to be Forever ‘Head over Heels’ in love with our spouse when married for decades. Yeah, reality. Wholly unknown in many precincts of life as we know it. Cheers, ‘VJ’

            • Kinkynikki Says:

              Like driving me nuts says, either a guy likes you or he doesn’t. Being less pushy isn’t going make him ‘head over heels.’ If women are honest is the same way with Us. A woman likes a guy or she doesn’t. A woman may grow into sexual attraction but rarely do you from dislike to like. A man has to put in a great deal of time & effort for such a transformation. The woman also has give you the time and have an open mind.

          • Joey Giraud Says:

            I would never had said I was “head over heels” in love with either woman I married.

            Getting married is a strong sign of commitment, BTW.

        • Matt Says:

          I agree with DrivingMeNutes. I’ve been in the situation where I wasn’t “head over heels” but I was content to let things coast until she started pressuring me for more, then I had to pull the honesty trigger. Guys might need a push or two, but they tell the truth when they need to.

        • Kinkynikki Says:

          Amen to every word driving me nuts said.

  2. Angel Says:

    I think that was not only a bad move but bad manners to bring up that trip and ask if you could go along. That was for him to bring up, or not bring up. And I can see his point of view that it is maybe too soon to feel comfortable inviting you for over a week in a foreign country with a bunch of his friends.

    But him saying he’s not head over heels… I don’t think that’s a good sign. He could have just left it at “it’s too soon for that.” He didn’t need to say he’s not super into you. The fact that he did say it, makes me think he’s been thinking it to himself, like, “we’ll, I’m not head over heels, but I feel like I should be… I guess I’ll give it more time.” I don’t know, I just don’t think it bodes well if a guy says something like that. Regardless of the trip snafu on your part, it sounds like this may have had a shelf life.

    And then instead of trying to work through it with you, he wants to put you on hold, step back, not be intimate. Not what a guy does if he is excited about you and wants something with you. Either you two aren’t really a great fit, or there’s behavior on your part that he isn’t crazy about.

    • Angel Says:

      Also: impulse control. You don’t respond to, “I don’t feel ready to go on a big trip with friends and I’m not head over heels” with “let’s see other people.” Just say ok, go off and process it, and see what his next move is. You can’t go off from the hip like that.

    • Dan Giaimo Says:

      Saying you’re not “head over heels” over someone is not the same as saying you’re not super into someone at least not the way I use the phrase. To me, being “head over heels” is a negative thing indicating that you are *so* smitten that you are willing to make bad decisions just to be with the person. Frankly, it’s a very good sign that he is not “head over heels” because if he were, I guarantee that when the honeymoon period wears off (as it will do) he will have some hard realizations coming.

      • Joey Giraud Says:

        Exactly; “head over heels” means crazy, mixed-up, not-in-your-right-mind, meshugina.

        Some people might like their lovers to be meshugina; easier to fool.

      • D. Says:

        This, to me, is why the “head over heels” thing isn’t something particularly dispositive. It’s so open to interpretation. For one person, it could be an honest statement of disinterest. For another, it might simply be hyperbole about how he’s not “over the moon” or “if I were all Hollywood-romance” or whathaveyou.

        My guess is that, taken in the context of his OTHER actions, it was intended as hyperbole. Perhaps it was a poor choice to voice the point, but it may have happened under duress. Or if it didn’t, it may have happened simply because he had a brain fart in the moment and blurted it out. Regardless, all of the guy’s other actions suggested that he wanted to keep seeing her at the same level, so if she walks, she should recognize that doing so was HER choice, not his.

  3. LostSailor Says:

    he reality is that if he was “head over heels” he would invite me to go, but he’s not….My heart dropped. So I said to him that I am going to see other people and I think that he should too.

    Yup. Overreacting big time. CityGal, you’re 35, for Christ’s sake. I’m assuming that the guy is older than you. You’ve been dating 2 months and have been exclusive for 1 month. He’s still staying in contact with you, which indicates he’s still interested. but you pushed yourself on a long-planned trip with him and his friends. When he was honest with you, you pushed back even harder with a near-ultimatum: you don’t want to be exclusive anymore.

    These are not the actions of a mature person, but a petulant child. Your “heart dropped” because he wasn’t “head of heels” into you. Guess what? “Head over heels” love is the province of youngsters who don’t know any better. You should know better than to expect the Disney princess fairytale romance at 35. Grow up.

    I also want to look out for myself and my well-being and not go down the path with a commitment-phobe or someone who is unsure of progressing with me.

    Your own actions (and overreactions) are sabotaging what seems to be a promising relationship. You need to back down. Tell him you understand his reluctance to include you on the trip and you realize you shouldn’t have asked for an invitation and put him on the spot; it was rude. Tell him you actually do want to be exclusive and that you’re sorry for your reaction. Tell him that you want to see him at least sometime during the holiday season.

    You put the “lingering shadow” of NYE over your heads for the month of December. It’s up to you to remove it.

    You’re “confused” because you’re only looking at the situation through the lens of your own needs. If you’re going to succeed in a serious relationship, you need to take someone else’s needs and feelings into account. In a relationship, it’s not all about you…

  4. Speedy Says:

    This so bad it could almost have been written as a satire. In fact I’m still not 100% sure this hasn’t been penned by an irritated guy so he can show someone the reply.

    Its fairly open and shut, you got pushy, he told you to back off a bit, that wasn’t good enough and now you’ve blown it. He has given you a slim final chance which I also find confusing, either he is an absolute prince amongst men or a bit of a wimp, I’m not sure which. I’d question whether this will survive nine days with his friends putting him straight because he really doesn’t owe you what it sounds like he thinks he owes you. In a parallel universe maybe he was going to tell them about this girl he’d met and how well it was going instead.

    In any case, it is what is missing from this account that I find most suspicious and I think it is self serving. This bit:

    “We spoke again later the next day and he reiterated that he doesn’t feel ready for a trip outside of the country with me and the reality is that if he was “head over heels” he would invite me to go, but he’s not…”

    And how, pray, did you get onto that topic? Did he just randomly reiterate what was obviously something rather painful to say in the first place and escalate the drama? I bet he thought he was pretty keen on you before this started actually, by any chance did you attempt a little ultimatum, a little a bit of ‘if you loved me you would’ (which maybe dressed up as an ‘inconsistency’)? A suggestion that his choices about his trip might have some connection with his feelings for you one way or another that needed to be discussed (which actually they probably after 4 months didn’t either way which is the key fact you are oblivious to). Of course you did and you played the hand and you lost. And its a good thing you lost, nobody should ever win doing that. Don’t do that to people. And what did you then do having tapdanced into the minefield?

    “My heart dropped. So I said to him that I am going to see other people and I think that he should too.”

    Slow hand clap. See, you were playing the ultimatum game weren’t you. Good grief, you’re 35. Have you learned nothing? Did this honestly work any better when you were 15 or 25? Don’t do things like that. That right there is the moment he should have hung up and never spoken to you again.

    I think he is anything but a commitmentphobe actually given he was still looking for a way to keep the faith with you and not call your bluff (to resist the satisfaction of that is almost heroic), but you’ve scared the crap out of him. I’m not sure if there is a way back for you from this. In principle, maybe, if you could be exceptionally cool about everything and not bear a grudge and never mention it again and from that point on be the least pushy girlfriend in history but I just don’t think you’re capable of it. You need to get that this is about something you’ve done, not something up with him because the men may change but this will keep happening otherwise.

  5. peppermint Says:

    “…part of me thinks it would be a natural progression to spend New Years together, especially if there are girls and guys involved in the trip and we would be at the four month mark, at that point.”

    Thing is, you’re only at the two-month mark. Talking about spending New Year’s together might make sense if it were actually New Year’s and you were in fact at the four-month point (which, by the way, if you met in mid-September, is only the 3.5 month point). Why not go ahead while you’re at it and bring up Valentine’s Day, when you’ll be five months in, and July 4th when you’ll be at the nine month mark!?

    Women would do themselves a service if they learned how to be more comfortable with uncertainty and stopped trying to control everything, especially relationships. Nobody likes to be controlled, really, and especially not men in the early stages of a relationship.

    Let things unfold a little, CityGal…don’t get so attached to a particular result or trying to make things happen. Push too hard and you’ll control your way right out of even the most promising relationship.

  6. VJ Says:

    So all the evidence is pointing towards one of those ‘cognitive dissonance’ disagreements. It’s very likely that the yes, pushy & perennially ‘dissatisfied’ CG is well on her way to very effectively and swiftly torpedoing yet another relationship. Then she’ll cry the blues to her gal pals about ‘how there’s no good men left’ or ‘they’re all just no good/not good enough’ for her to bother with. They’ll heartily agree. I’m also calling BS on the ‘head over heels’ in love deal too. That’s a woman’s voice here, clearly. So once again the very common specter of self sabotage strikes, just in time for the holidays too. How very, well Predictable! So yeah, I’m thinking this has not a whole lot to do with ‘misreading the guy’ or the guy’s intentions. He’s been reasonably clear about that. CG has just not accepted that he’s got a life that’s separate from hers, and that she can not participate in every aspect of it, especially at the 2 mo mark.

    So mark that well, for some women, they really don’t want the ‘truth’ or anything sounding close to it. They want what they want, and they want it now, and more compliance with their desires. Which might be fine. In a marriage. But you’ll never get there by deliberately seeking to question & undermine your BF at every turn & opportunity. Hence his clearly rational ‘avoidance’ strategy. That may not work well here, she’s already suspicious of his motives, even if he’s remained in daily contact with her to indicate otherwise.

    So Yes, some women are never satisfied & that’s why you’re still single & likely to remain so! Cheers, ‘VJ’

  7. yb Says:

    Even assuming the CG was pushy and crossing boundaries by asking, I don’t think she deserved the response that she got. It was just plain callous. He didn’t have to say the head over heels thing. And notice she gave him a way out by saying, “if there is space”.

    If she was pushy and annoying as Moxie and the commentors seem to believe, then this aspect of her personality would have been visible from the start. He would have know it was her being her.

    I can agree that she felt ready to spend 9 days with him for all the reasons she cites (I would feel the same). And I can understand that the guy just didn’t want to for whatever the reason. His answer could have been much more tactful. I find him too direct to the point of being offensive. And super selfish. How dare the fool ask to resume after his trip??? This is all about him. He has shown absolutely zero empathy for CG.

    • The D-man Says:

      If she was pushy and annoying as Moxie and the commentors seem to believe, then this aspect of her personality would have been visible from the start.

      Which is perhaps why he had to reiterate and provide a reason. She wouldn’t let it go and kept pushing for one.

  8. CityGal Says:

    Hi all – it’s the OP writing. Thanks for your insight. Very helpful. While I appreciate you calling out that my actions may have been pushy (it’s always good to self-reflect), I did not ask to meet his parents or ask to be exclusive – these were things he initiated. Also, to answer a few of your questions – yes, it was his exact words to say, “If I was ‘head over heals’ I would invite you to go, but I’m not.” That’s when my heart dropped and I suggested that we see other people. He then said in an “ideal world, we would take a few steps back and be less intimate and then reconnect after New Years Eve.”

    • Angel Says:

      Makes sense to me. I actually don’t see all that much inconsistency here between his asking to be exclusive, introducing you to parents, yet not feeling “head over heels.” Guys will absolutely date a woman exclusively for two or three months even if they don’t feel that excited head over heels feeling. I’m sure he likes/liked you. But my gut says he didn’t feel he liked you *enough*. I think that eventually would have been the issue. At 2 months of course he shouldn’t be sure you’re the one, but he shouldn’t be feeling that he’s *not* head over heels for you. I think DMN is spot on on this one.

    • novelty718 Says:

      Two months and you invite yourself on a trip that he had planned before he knew you existed…yeah that is a bit pushy. I would have been hurt not to get an invite but I would have been like “cool have fun”…My advice is continue to answer text and calls but get out and date…go do you…if you reconnect after the holidays cool…but don’t sit and wait for it.

    • Kinkynikki Says:

      Citygal, in my opinion, I agree with driving me nuts. In not so many words you got dumped. If I were you, I wouldn’t read into him staying in contact. He might just be nice about the breakup. It’s hard to breakup period let alone around the holidays. He may just be keeping you warm until he figures out what to do. Don’t read into him initiating exclusivity or meeting the parents. That’s just another card up his sleeve to keep you interested IMHO. Fall back. If interested and/or serious about he’ll come back around.

    • LostSailor Says:

      I still have to disagree with the others here on this “head over heels” thing. Perhaps not the best choice of words, but also definitely not an indicator that he’s dumping you. “Head over heels” is the equivalent of “madly in love.” Now, after only 2 months, you’re hurt that he hasn’t fallen desperately in love with you? That wouldn’t be love, but infatuation. Real love takes time to grow. Your immediate retort about seeing other people just pushed him further into a corner.

      I disagree completely that he had any intention of “dumping” you by that comment.

      • K Says:

        I don’t think he had any intention of dumping her by making that comment either; I think he would have continued to date her for some time after that if this debacle hadn’t happened. But by making a point of saying “I’d invite you if I were head over heels for you – but I’m not,” I think he is saying clearly that he’s not as excited about her as he could be at this point, and chances are he never would be.

        • LostSailor Says:

          I guess we all read these things differently.

          In this particular situation, I read his comment as “Hey, we’ve only been dating a short time, and while I like you a lot, I’m not madly in love with you at this moment to include you on a long-planned, 9-day foreign trip with my friends that you’ve tried to invite yourself on.”

          When she responded that she thought they should date other people, and he made the “in a perfect world” comment, I read that as “Wow, uh, well, this has kind of put a cloud over our relationship, but if you want to take a step back until this awkward situation passes after the holidays, then lets do that and see if we can get beyond this in January.”

          I saw the “perfect world” as a world where the confrontation and conversation hadn’t taken place at all.

          Maybe he’s reassessing, which is why I suggested above that CityGal take a more proactive approach to healing the situation sooner rather than later.

  9. Speed Says:

    Meeting Parents
    Traditionally, this is a big deal. Maybe 3-4 girls in my entire life have met my friends and family, because that’s a very serious stage for me. Now, all you modern, secular moral relativists might say, “I don’t believe in any of these silly 2,000-year-old human traditions.” Which is fine. But I would still wager that the average person believes that meeting someone else’s family and close friends means a lot.

    Pushy or Honest Mistake?
    I don’t see the OP as “pushy.” It seems she was in the moment and took a risk in trying to invite herself along on that trip. Maybe it was overreach or too soon but it was also very human and sincere. She was with her guy, not in a courtroom or business negotiations where the slightest mistake must be turned against her or the smallest opening ruthlessly exploited. This brings me to…

    “Head over Heels”
    You can tell a lot about a person by how they deal with other people’s honest mistakes and gaffes. Some people use discretion or kindness, or maybe gentle correction. Others use some sort of crushing verbal blow that’s probably better suited to talk radio than among people who supposedly have at least a basic respect for each other. In this guy’s case, a simple, polite white lie such as “Sorry, I’d love to have you along but that’d be difficult” would have sufficed. Delivering a cruel riposte as he did (“I’m not head over heels about you!”) was not only rude but indicates he “goes nuclear” in the early stages of any couples argument. That’s his communication style. Keep dating this guy, and you can expect to see more of it.

    Serial Monogamist?
    I don’t really have enough information to state this but based on what I read, this guy seems like a typical serial monogamist. It’s one of the most convenient lifestyles for us guys. Being a “player,” especially if you’re not wealthy or 9-10 in looks, takes time, effort and money (bar bills, dinners, theater, driving/subway, etc.). A girlfriend that you can just stay in with and watch movies with or hit a nice restaurant down the street (with guaranteed sex at the end of the date) is easier, cheaper and better. This arrangement can last for months or years. When it breaks down, go on Match again to find a replacement. Repeat. So for the serial monogamist, agreeing to be exclusive is no real sacrifice anyway. A sacrifice for this kind of guy is crimping his career or social lifestyle, which the OP appeared to do. As far as I can tell, that is the real issue.

    Forever and Ever
    This guy seems willing to be your boyfriend, as long as you can sort of fit into his schedule and lifestyle and don’t “push” him in anyway, especially by bringing up any horrid words like “love,” “living together,” “marriage,” etc. Also be prepared for the occasional verbal smackdown that reminds you who’s in charge. If you’re okay with all that, you might be able to stay with this guy forever and ever.

    • LaMotta Says:

      I think your post is pretty insightful, especially the “serial monogamist” part. What I don’t agree with is that meeting parents is a big deal. Personally I’ve become desensitized to it; everyone knows its meaningless, in today’s ultra-extended-dating-lifespan world. My family and my parents know that meeting a girl I am dating is absolutely no guarantee that things will go anywhere.

      Combine this with the serial monogamist point and I think you get the conclusion that the guy was operating “as per normal procedure” as long as CityGal didn’t ruffle his feathers or disrupt his life too much; when she began to, he changed his opinion fast (guys are allowed to do that). Meeting the parents may have even been a tactic to make her comfortable and show just how much of a great, monogamistic guy he was.

      • krismae Says:

        I agree this comment is mostly spot on, but to say that meeting the parents is a big deal and he might be a serial monogamist seems a bit inconsistent to me. If he just wanted to be in a relationship, he didn’t need to introduce her to his parents. Maybe he didn’t see meeting the parents as a big deal, and he’s a serial monogamist. I think the point that he slapped her down is a good one, though. From my perspective, I don’t think I would ever try to get invited to go oversees with someone I’ve only dated for a couple months, but his reaction also spoke volumes. They both seem a bit short tempered in their communication (“I’m not head over heals with you” vs. “I’m going to date others, and you should, too”) It seems to me like the writing is on the wall with this one. It’s hard to backtrack when you’ve both put it all on the table like that.

    • Speedy Says:

      …what did she say to him first though?

      Here is what I think happened:

      Her: You would if you loved me and you felt super strongly about me and wanted to marry me and live with me forever and ever. So now what?
      Him: Well…I guess I don’t then yet, its only been a couple of months
      Her: I’m going to see other people.

  10. Eliza Says:

    The bottom line – and as Moxie put it – men like to arrives to such relationship decisions on their own…without being pushed or bullied or hassled about “why they are not moving quick enough”. I personally, would have continued to date, and be busy – but still see him, until you get the level of commitment you want. Once you show a guy that you are “too into him”–too soon? It’s over. They do love a challenge. And it’s better when a woman doesn’t badger, and then when a man pursues and DOES want to take that next step, you will know it’s genuine, and he is positively ready. I was in a similar situation…started dating a man and he had planned an overseas trip to Italy – about 4 months later…but things with us took off, naturally too…I was actually the hesitant one due to the fact that he had kids from a prior marriage…and I never dated someone with children. And he went on his trip–I took my vacations too. And while he was away–he was calling – from Italy – at 6am his time…and he actually asked me to fly out and meet him in Venice! Yes…he was willing to use mileage for the flight. I couldn’t due to work. But the bottom line is: When a man is interested – a man is interested. He will move and take charge. This man that the OP mentions may be spineless though. He sounds a bit on the coward side. Afraid of any discussion, etc.

  11. Mark Says:

    If I were the mentioned in the letter, I might be thinking something along the lines of “How is a guy supposed to win in this thing?”

    It sounded like things were going along pretty smoothly. Dating a few of months, even him having you meet the parents and so on. Sounds pretty strong that he thinks you have real potential and this could go places He is going on a long planned trip and felt that nine days or so in a foreign country might be a little much. At least he was upfront to say as much and not try to invent something else to say.

    You seem taken aback at his response and felt that because he wasn’t heads over heals taken with you that he wouldn’t have even given the issue a second thought about it and you went and suggested that maybe each of you ought to start seeing other people again.

    Real people lead real lives. We try to juggle all those things that go on and try to balance all those competing pressures on a very important commodity: time. Especially if he is around the same age as you at 35. Until this incident, it seems that you made no mention of any outstanding points so it would be safe to say that he was making good on trying to include in his life. You the same with him. Add to that that many guys wouldn’t be thinking along the lines of “head over heels”….It sounds a little school girlish to characterize what he might be feeling for you at this point. Rather as a guy who is working his way to an adult relationship with someone he wants to spend more time with.

    Even when you were taken aback at his honest explanation about the trip you issued something very close to a line in the sand about the notion of seeing other people again. His response was that was not something he was interested in and you even further note that he has texted, IM’d etc you after this. That seems like an over reaction to the state of things given the circumstances. You make it seem that it has to go your way or no way.

    It sounds like this guy was trying to do all the right things in a manner and timeline that sounded fair and reasonable. Unfortunately, you seem to be taking the position that it’s your view is the only one that really holds sway. How often do you hear women lament that they can’t seem to find decent guys who has his act together who isn’t a doormat kind of guy or some other percieved character flaw? All too often I’m afraid. Yet here is a guy who sounds like one of those exceptions and a number of your actions suggests you want a guy to be a real guy unless it’s something that you want and then it goes out the window.

    If this guy had spent more time with you or done more things would this letter instead about how clingy or smothering he is? I don’t know. But all you have to do is take a random sample of some of the letters posted on this blog (there are some whoppers) to get a sense that comparatively speaking, this relationship seemed to have a lot going for it until this incident. A real shame that things seemed to have taken a turn for the worse.

    So some perspective is in order. You are both working adults in their thirties. He seems to be trying to act his part. Can the same be said of you? Frankly, given the nature and extent of your response to the situation, if I were they guy I would seriously reconsider the status of this relationship and rethink where this might be going.

    Hope it works out, but I wouldn’t bank on it.

    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      Jesus, the guy told her that in an “ideal world,” they wouldn’t be intimate until January. You don’t even have to read between the lines to get this one. And yet people are still acting like its all her fault.

      Let’s see. In an “ideal world,” I would be surrounded by 60 nubile women of various shapes and ethnicities who catered to my every sexual whim for 24 hours until the next shift of 60 women rotated in. A few notches below that would be spending New Years Eve with someone I supposedly cared about or even liked. This guy’s ideal world is to not have sex with his girlfriend until after his trip. Oh, ok. Because it was “planned?” That makes sense.

      • jeff Says:

        Ideal world was referring to be able to skip past when the BS would be over. It wasn’t to his desire to not see her.

  12. CityGal Says:

    This is the OP. Just wanted to clarify something for Mark.

    You mentioned “Add to that that many guys wouldn’t be thinking along the lines of “head over heels”….It sounds a little school girlish to characterize what he might be feeling for you at this point. Rather as a guy who is working his way to an adult relationship with someone he wants to spend more time with.”

    He was the one who said (and this is his exact quote): “If I was head over heals with you, I would invite you to go, but I’m not……” I paused. That hurt. A lot. He also said he “doesn’t know why he feels that way. Even if someone was putting a gun to his head.” (He has a thing for words, doesn’t he?)

    Then I said, “I understand, but I think it would be best if we date other people.” He said that “in an ideal world,” we would simply reconnect after the NYE and pick up where we left off because there will be a “lingering cloud above us until NYE.”

  13. jeff Says:

    Seriously, OP. The reason that he would say “in an ideal world” is that he doesn’t think you can let it go. And that is the problem. You asked him for something unreasonable/imposing and are pushing for an answer you don’t want to hear. What answer could he possibly give that would have satisfied you? Seriously. If he doesn’t want to go with you, I get the impression other than a logistical reason would probably offend you. (if logistics or friends weren’t an issue, would there actually be an answer that you’d accept?) The head over heels response is the type of reply you’d ONLY get if being pushed. Iow you didn’t feel his other answers were acceptable and were pressing on. That is what you seem to miss. Most people would do what they can to make the interrogation stop. lie or be more blunt. In this case, (to your frustration) he sounds like the type of guy who is honestly but unfortunately speaks in terms of technicalities. I.e. if I were jumping on top of couches crazy for you, I would hypthetically do x…. Of course, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t like you. It means that he is still discerning, which he should be at that point. I think you are reading to much from it given the context.

    The guy might be too technical for his own good, but you are creating your own drama and ironically alot of his hesitation. He’s given you more than a reasonable amount of signs of interest (exclusivity and meeting parents). Pushing for the trip is VERY uncalled for and imposing. Relax and try to understand his point of view. I think you are sabotaguing yourself.

  14. nathan Says:

    A few points. Two months is entirely too early to expect someone to include you in an already planned trip of that magnitude. It’s too quick, and had he said yes enthusiastically, I can imagine the responses you’d be getting from many readers is that he’s rushing things.

    Secondly, I disagree with the idea that you either are into someone or not from the get go. In the beginning, you don’t know each other, so whatever interest is there is a combination of hormones and superficial knowledge of the other person. It’s reasonable to expect that someone likes you enough to want to date you exclusively after a few months, but I think it’s absurd to assume someone should love you or be totally infatuated with you in such a short time. Long lasting love takes time, and anyone who thinks otherwise is foolish.

    Finally, this guy’s desire to put things on hold until after the trip because of a “lingering cloud” is his way of weaseling out of facing discomfort. He doesn’t want to have to deal with your disappointment, which really doesn’t bode well over the long term. As a few others said, as long as it’s easy for him to have you around, he’s game. But when things get a little tough, he’ll want to bail, or scale the relationship back. At least, this is how it looks right now. It is possible that he’s trying to keep things moving at a reasonable pace, given how long you’ve been together, but the word choices seem overly harsh, especially since he had time to consider what to say to you between the initial conversation and the phone call.

    If he had left it at “I’m not ready for that step yet,” I’d be much more in his court. However, based upon what he said in total, I think odds are against the two of you being happy together over the long haul.

  15. peppermint Says:

    “The head over heels response is the type of reply you’d ONLY get if being pushed. Iow you didn’t feel his other answers were acceptable and were pressing on. That is what you seem to miss. Most people would do what they can to make the interrogation stop.”

    I agree. When you asked to go with him on the trip, OP, you basically triggered his fight or flight response, which is about protecting us what it perceives as threats to our “survival.” It’s a reflex, it’s not rational. And it’s definitely not diplomatic.

    The best thing you could have done at that point is taken a more lighthearted approach, and responded to his head over heels comment by saying something like “Yeah, you need to work on that flexibility thing” or some other dumb joke to diffuse the tension. Instead, you amped it up and tried to hurt him back by saying you should see other people. So you had a moment of gratification but ultimately who won? Nobody.

  16. Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

    I agree with DMN that if a man tells you – on his own – he’s not head over heels for you, it’s a bad sign. However, this feels to me like something he said during an argument or tense discussion. Now, DMN will say that that point is irrelevant, because the intention behind a statement like that is clear. I disagree. I think this guy felt cornered and pressured. If anything, it doesn’t bode well for how this guy argues or reacts to confrontation. But I don’t think that this guy just wasn’t feeling her or didn’t see any future. He just didn’t want to travel with her, and needed to get her to cool her jets. He did so by saying something that would shock her and get her to back off.

    • Eliza Says:

      I agree. That the guy reacted negatively…because he felt he was being manipulated. Does he handle hurdles with finesse…definitely not. Is he or did he behave maturely by discussing it with sensitivity? Clearly no. Perhaps the OP wants to reconsider putting too much value/emphasis on this man–based on that alone. Because in ANY adult relationship – healthy too…there will be times of controversy and when two people don’t see eye to eye–there needs to be a mutually respectful way of discussing things–without suggesting “we don’t see each other for x-amount of time”.

      • Anonymousse Says:

        I dont know what would be more mature and sensitive, but seriously. After 2 months of dating, 1 month of exclusivity, meeting his parents. You put him on the spot about ratcheting up your commitment to each other and he was HONEST with you.

        And you punished him for it. Im sorry you feel hurt by his honesty, but you have now started the quick and easy path to having this man TRAINED to lie to you.

        If Honesty is attacked, next time he’ll know to lie. At least to you.

        • VJ Says:

          Yep, it’s a pretty easy equation to understand, your pets will pick up on the score here too. See my longer comment below which tried to state some of the same sentiment. Cheers, ‘VJ’

    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      I agree that he felt cornered and pressured. And, I agree completely that it is unreasonable to expect someone you’ve been dating for a few months to commit to take you along on a trip because, prospectively, you will have been dating all of four months by then. And, as I am often the guy in this very situation, I don’t question his feeling of not being “head over heels” about her, now or ever. I’m no stranger to women with wildly unrealistic expectations nor do I lack experience in regularly disappointing them.

      But, yeah, there is a huge difference between having a private sentiment and choosing to express that sentiment out loud.

      I’m sure a great many budding couples who started dating in September-October of this year are going through very similar situations. Figuring out whether its appropriate or desired to have this person along at family events or rearranging preplanned events. Its just not that uncommon to have a woman ramp up expectations for a new boyfriend around the holidays. And, like all of us in this “awkward” situation, it should have been very easy for this guy to manage her expectations without telling her effectively to fuck off until after his trip. “CityGirl, I think things are great between us. Our relationship has been moving really fast and, I’m actually pretty happy with that. Really, I have no complaints. But, I just think all things considered, I feel it’s a little too soon for us to be planning that kind of trip together that far in advance. I mean, I hope things work out between us and expect they will but its really just too soon for me. I’m sure I’ll regret it on NYE but its how I feel right now” See how easy? As you noted, its the expression of a perfectly reasonable-sounding sentiment. He could even throw in “by the way, I’m head over heels for you.” Its all lies of course but its what you say when you want to ease the pressure but keep a relationship alive. He chose to say something very different. And, yes, I assume he intends or at least acts with the knowledge of the natural consequences of his words since, I assume, he is a grown ass man.

  17. xyzed Says:

    This guy sounds like a pompous ass. He wants his cake and eat it too. So he wants to be exclusive but is not “head over heels”. I guess he was waiting for the opportune time that is convenient for him to communicate his intentions. Keeping a warm body available until something better pops up on his radar. Why not keep the relationship open and casual until a “true connection” is made. Kudos for CityGal in communicating her intentions on seeing other people. Why continue to waste your time…

  18. Eliza Says:

    Again…understandable…that he feels cornered.. but no excuse to come across like a “pompous ass”–and insensitive by using such inappropriate words. One can get their thoughts across without being so arrogant. It’s never becoming or appealing to be viewed as insensitive.

    • xyzed Says:

      Eliza, we are talking about a man not a wus. He should put his “big boys” pants on and stop stringing Citygal along until its convenient for him to either decide to continue or end the relationship. That is what is wrong in today’s society we become disingenuous for our own selfish needs.

      • Eliza Says:

        xyzed: I agree he is being acting like a little girl by “avoiding her”….rather than just be clear and open and communicative, but sometimes, the woman just has to read between the lines (as in this situation), and take the bull by the horns…and make their own bed, decide what to do – and stick to it. That pretty much fixes everything. if you feel someone is being disingenuous with you–go with your instinct.

        My motto in life. “If you can’t “change” the people around you…”Change” the people who surround you”.

        And most likely–you can’t “change” someone, nor should you. Which is why I have said over and over–it’s best to let the guy lead in terms of directing the relationship, while the woman continue to explore her options. Why nag someone into spending time with you. A man should want that voluntarily…and pursue a woman. And in doing so, the woman can reciprocate, but not be some doormat, always available. It’s simply not conducive or healthy. When there is mutual interest – words like this are not exchanged, and things unfold naturally. Communication is there. Again, I was in a very similar situation, and the man was sensitive enough to initiate conversation about his trip – by prefacing by saying how much he wished I could join him, but the circumstances just didn’t allow it. I understood that and it was acceptable. Didn’t badger him. And alas, while he was away–he voluntarily suggested to fly me out to Venice…using his own mileagle.

        Ladies: when a man is interested, a man is interested. Let him lead!!! If it’s meant to be, it will be.

        • LostSailor Says:

          Ah, I see the Burned & Bitter Ladies’ Commiseration Association has chimed in. Charming as ever…

        • wishing u well Says:

          Well, there’s always the option that wasn’t mentioned: you can, in fact, change yourself. Most often that’s where true change should begin. In this situation, I think that the takeaway for CityGal should be for her to be less pushy, be more confident in the connection being built, and understand that there’s 2 people whose feelings must be considered. Note that the guy mentioned the trip but did not invite the OP himself. Nothing shuts down a potential relationship that is budding like misplaced aggressiveness under the guise of assertiveness. But in this scenario, the guy’s initial reaction was not cool and possibly a red flag on its own, but let’s park that. For him, it likely felt like too much too soon. What’s the rush? The car salesman approach to dating is not the best idea, and it can appear as if you’re in such a rush because you want him to make up his mind before the guy can find out what’s “really” under the hood of the car or desperate to sell the vehicle. Likely neither here is true, and that’s why there is opportunity for the OP to make changes going forward in her approach to things dating wise.

  19. jeff Says:

    People don’t act insensitive on purpose. The chances are that he just didn’t know of a better way to express himself. Also, the problem we have here (that makes me hesitant to criticize) is that we don’t know what else he said: Whether those problem statements are representative of most of what he said or whether it was something said at a boiling point after the more sensitive response didn’t diffuse the situation.

    • Eliza Says:

      Jeff: OK….whether people act insensitive on purpose, or unknowingly, it doesn’t matter. What matters is that if what a woman wants is someone “sensitive” by nature, she needs to seek someone with that very quality. If in fact he is just insensitive by nature, he is either very immature, inexperienced in how to deal with such adversity….or just nasty by nature. Which, fine…some women can actually overlook that, (not sure who? but there is a lid for every pot)….but it’s evident that the OP can’t overlook how he handles such difficult discussions. Not everyone can express themselves in a very diplomatic way.

      • jeff Says:

        How can someone overlook that? Easily. Is it a comment in the heat of an argument that was built up to or was it something said without any pressure? If its the former, I can see how someone can forgive that or recognize it as not something you should use to assess true feelings. The other thing is that acting insensitive unknowingly does make a difference if its just a case of a bad choice of words. Sometimes you don’t know how something you say will be taken or you might be trying to think of a way to explain something (but not have the best way to phrase it). That matters. Instead of thinking this person hurt me or was mean, someone might ask if there is a more forgiving way of understanding what he said or what it means.

  20. Brad Says:

    So many harsh words…

    But understandably so, given the nature of the original letter and it being sent TWICE.

    Let’s see…
    I think it’s a mistake to assume that a statement of commitment inherently means a lot, and more of a mistake to assign greater meaning to any event thereafter–exclusivity, meeting parents, trips. You might want to quantify and explicitly define commitment or the nature of the relationship, but you just can’t. It doesn’t work that way. I know we all know that already, but it’s soooooo easy to forget. It’s impossible to know exactly what this guy is thinking, and no one can control it or change it.

    As a pretty romantic guy (yes, I’ve written sonnets–poorly–and my fair share of love letters), I have not once used the term head-over-heels, and as I’ve gotten into my 30s the way I think about romance and love has…evolved. I imagine it has for many others. Someone else mentioned that “head over heels” is the province of youngsters, and that is correct. On more than a few occasions I’ve been drunk on love, feet on the ground but head in the clouds for days on end, and hey! It’s awesome and intoxicating. But it’s largely unsustainable and not indicative of anything that deep.

    Ultimately, any relationship lasts because the people in it choose for it to. Not to sound dreadfully clinical, but there’s an element of rational thought that goes into these things. I can’t imagine he’s lying about not wanting to see other people. I can’t see any reason to designate him a commitment phobe. He wants to go on the trip as he originally planned it–no problem. I’d keep it going rather than concoct reasons to terminate it just because it didn’t proceed exactly as desired. It’s totally understandable to be upset and put-off, but…that’ll pass if you let it.

    • VJ Says:

      Yep. Using that one phrase, “I’m not head over heels in love with you” to essentially prosecute the guy for not immediately caving and likely acceding to her insistent demands that she go on a long planned trip? Silly, and not really all that adult. Again, let’s try to sneak some reality into the situation & discussion here.

      1.) City gal just broke up with her otherwise seemingly perfectly acceptable BF. (If there was anything else dramatically wrong with the dude, we’d have heard about it, right?) And ostensibly broke up with him, ‘We need to see other people’, as her basic reaction over this ONE incident. No matter what we might Conjecture about the guy? That’s NOT adult behavior from any woman seeking a LTR or a loving partnership. Hectoring someone over long term plans that happen to not include you is not really productive, Anywhere.

      2.) Naturally upon completing #1, CG wants to blame the guy for all of this. Sure, there’s some blame to go around. More guys Do need to be poets. Evidently this is what women want most of all. Besides all that other stuff that will prequalify him just for ‘dating’. All the income, style, education, lifestyle, height, build, health and personality qualifications that must be met in order to cross the threshold of mere ‘plausibility’.

      So in addition to all that ‘stuff? We’ve got to word everything Just So. It’s got to be Perfect, Every time. This is what we might learn from the PUAs and the guys who learn Game. More BS all the time. More artful lies. That’s essentially what’s required. Tell the ‘mark’ what they want to hear. NEVER, EVER tell the truth. Never dare utter it in the presence of some women. It’ll shatter their world. They’ll never see you the same. And they’ll want to date other people who might be more pleasing to their ears, or someone who’s just more dedicated to lying to them more of the time. You know the men they may imagine who love them more and love them enough to artfully lie to them to keep them ignorant of reality, and pleasantly deluded more of the time. It’s their sacred duty as men to do so evidently, especially when it comes to love or relationships. This is the kind of dreamboat we all might imagine for our moms, sisters & daughters.

      3.) So Yeah, let’s all talk about ‘big boys’ or ‘grown men’ here. How about grown married men? Do they count? I’m one of those. What do I know, I’ve only been married since CG was in grade school. Ask any long married couple about this. ‘Head over heels’ is a uniquely strange proposition. It’s one part madness and another part deranged hopefulness.

      So by using such a term, it might indicate that CG’s former BF might have been willing to throw ‘caution to the winds’, and Possibly be willing to Risk having her along on the trip, if he was ‘mad’ enough in love with CG. So there you have it. Proof enough that there’s ‘not enough love’ to move forward. But you’re 35 now, and you’re still wanting to Demand such requirements of all your prospective dates/BFs whatever? That’s going to be a very, very small select group of men. They may & likely will easily be disqualified on any number of the many other ‘requirements’ for this one very important one too!

      In reality, I don’t know too many women who are actually married to their first or ‘one true love’, strangely enough. Sure they’re out there, and they’ll likely be a bit older too. Quite a bit older. Now many may not know or be aware of all this, but evidently some folks are so deeply committed to self sabotaging their own stated goals & desires that they’ll continue on that way for decades. This is not exactly conducive to finding love or any real adult partnership, again strangely enough. There are some marriages founded on this kind of deep sense of delusion, but they’re quite antique and nearly extinct. And yet obviously they’ve got plenty of fans in the 21st century who clamor for and demand such things. Again it’s madness. Never seek and ask for madness unless you’re willing to also accept all the chaos, confusion and uncertainty that comes form it. This is why few women are actually married to poets, and why poetry is dying everywhere. Women may demand poetry from their men, but when push comes to shove, they really don’t love poets anymore than men who might better meet all their criteria for what makes a decent spouse or partner. Very few poets actually do well there. And there’s a lesson in there someplace.

      Poetry in everyday language, is demanded everywhere in love, and known no place outside of children’s rhymes by the general public at large. It’s quickly disappearing from everyday experience and even in Universities. Please don’t persecute otherwise perfectly acceptable guys for their seeming lack of poetry in their language or hurried explanations or for their prior existence as beings somehow separate from you. It happened, and yes, it’ll continue to have some implications in the future. You too might be lucky enough to have in laws one day perhaps. Not too soon in this case, but anything’s possible. All those false and fake romantic dreams of our youth need to be purged perhaps before then however. Cheers, ‘VJ’

  21. Kurt Says:

    This woman does seem very pushy, which may become more and more of a problem over time, as few men like to be bossed around or controlled.

    I recently made out with a girl I have known for awhile after she invited herself to my place. We hadn’t even been on a date yet, although I told her I was going to ask her out the next day when we talked. However, before we went out, she demanded to know where she stood with me and it appeared as though she wanted some type of commitment from me even though we had not yet even been on a single date, which I thought made her seem very controlling and bossy. Needless to say, I told her that it wasn’t going to work out and that we shouldn’t date.

  22. Sarah Says:

    This isn’t a mystery. He’s interested in regular sex, and he will move on when he finds someone “better.” He’s been pretty upfront in telling you you’re good enough for now, but he isn’t open to getting serious with you. While you haven’t been together very long and he *shouldn’t* be head-over-heels already, he’s told you, very clearly, what you’re NOT to him (if he thought it was at all possible that he could be head-over-heels, he would have kept that to himself for now), and he’s not going to change his mind. Please don’t try working harder in an attempt to win him over. You’re a temp — so start cleaning up your résumé.

    I don’t know whose decision it was to meet the parents, but it was an empty gesture to keep you on the hook; he’s going through the motions in appearing to have a relationship because he knows it’s what you want and he’s going along to get along. He wants the easy, comfortable parts of a long term relationship because he’s tired of paying for dates. Plus, sex with you is a guarantee.

  23. joe-f Says:

    Ask him how many of his exes have met his parents. For some guys such as DMN, it is no big deal. For others such as me it is, i have dated a lot of girls but only three have ever met my parents. At four months and you already met his close friends and family, I think that is a significant milestone. Cut him some slack.

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