Name: Nicole
Age: 32
State: Vu
Question: Dear Moxie — I have a question about online dating and exclusivity that’s sort of tangentially related to your most recent piece on whether or not first-date sex is always the kiss of death. My specific question may be a topic you’ve covered in a previous blog, but I can’t find anything similar in the archives so I thought I would ask it again.I’ve been on OKC in my area for a little more than 2 months. I’ve gone on a fair number of dates (I think I’ve met 12-13 people in that time), but I’ve only felt strongly about 2 (in one case, I was into the guy but it wasn’t reciprocal, and in the other case the guy is not only geographically undesirable but geographically impossible. He lives in CA and I live in VA).
Anyway, I finally found someone that I like, and we’ve been out on 4 dates in the span of 8 days. The dates have gotten progressively better/more comfortable and yes – things have gotten physical. Everything in this guy’s profile — and everything that he’s said while we’ve been out — indicate that he’s looking for a girlfriend, and not just looking to screw around. (And yes, I know that he could still be full of sh** about this, but the sense I’m getting is that he wants a girlfriend.)
So here’s the deal: I know that this is OKC, and that with this site (and with any other online dating site) you have to assume that the person you’re seeing is seeing multiple other people at once. I’m positive in this case that this guy is (or at least should/could be) seeing other people; he’s 33 and extremely attractive and educated and successful (He’s an OKC unicorn, really). I can’t fault him for this and I know it’s way to early to ask for (or even discuss) seeing each other exclusively.
That said, I don’t want to be the girl he is f***ing while he looks for a “real” girlfriend, if that makes any sense. In other words, I am happy (OK, not *happy,* but at peace with) being one of multiple people he’s seeing before deciding on which one to consider his “girlfriend.” But, because I slept with him relatively soon (on date 3), I’m concerned that he’s not considering me “girlfriend material” and that I’m just in his “rotation” for possible sex when he’s bored or otherwise available.
Is there any way to delicately broach this in conversation (ie, ask him if he sees any LTR potential with us or not) or do I just let it go and ride it out until he either a) dumps me, or b) we end up dating exclusively? Like I said, I know I have to accept he’s going to be seeing other people, especially since we’ve known each other a week. But if he doesn’t consider us to have any LTR potential, I’d rather cut my losses now and take myself out of the running before I become too emotionally attached.
Thoughts? Are there signs I should look for that will tell me that I’m just someone to sleep with and not a potential GF? Or can I come out and ask?
You’ve only had 4 dates. I think you’re going to have to suck it up for awhile. If things are moving as quickly as you say, then it sounds like he’ll tell you if he wants to be serious or exclusive. A number of successive dates doesn’t always mean that you and the guy are on the same page. Take this scenario for example:
I had about 5 dates with a guy. About 2 a week. I liked him, I enjoyed him, I was attracted to him, the sex was good. But I wasn’t feeling that “thing” we all like to feel for people we’re dating. Not yet, at least. But I liked him enough to just keep my mouth shut and go along until things either progressed or came to their natural conclusion. One night, while texting, he invited me over to watch a particular TV show that I like. I was exhausted. I turned him down. Two nights later I get a call and he wants to talk about where we were headed. He said that he was looking for something mid to long term and he didn’t feel that’s where we were headed. I said okay. Just..okay. He then went on to say that we had plans the next night and wondered if I still wanted to go out or did I feel it was a waste of time. I said I thought it was a waste of time. Just that. “I think that would be a waste of time.” He then went on to tell me how much he’s enjoyed being with me and getting to know me. I told him I appreciated that. Then we hung up. The next day I realized that he was feeling me out to see how I felt. I knew when I turned down his offer to go over to his place to watch TV, I was probably sending a certain message. I wasn’t ready to shut the door just yet. I just needed time to figure things out. Since I wasn’t in a rush I figured I had time.
You said it yourself: you’ve met the OKCupid Unicorn. Instead of trouble shooting this after 4 dates, why not just enjoy it? At any given time, you might be the girl that a guy is “just sleeping with” as he continues his search for Ms. Right. There’s no escaping that. Even if you ask him where you stand, he could still tell you what you want to hear only to dump you a couple weeks or months later. It’s just too soon for both of you to tell where things are headed. Bring it up now, and you’ll possibly do damage to what you’ve established. Let go of this need to “know.” Stop fearing that you might get dumped or that you’re just a step along his journey to twu wuv. That’s dating. It won’t kill you. The more you do it, the more you build up a tolerance.
Men and women can go along to get along for a very long time. There’s no way to know for sure what they’re thinking. Even asking them doesn’t guarantee that how they say they feel in that moment will be how they feel in 2 months. There is no way to make these things fool-proof. If he does move on, it doesn’t mean you were a speed bump. He could have been giving you a trial run. It didn’t work. He took a pass.
If you insist upon saying something, and I highly advise that you don’t, then you just need to be honest. Just ask him if he’s dating anyone else. Then you’ll have your answer.
For Pete’s sake, it’s been 8 days…. At age 32, if you go hammering a unicorn with The Talk after 8 days you can bank on things ending, even if he’s already thinking “I dig this girl.” Why? From his perspective he’ll likely start thinking that you’ll be hell-bent for a ring in 6 months.
I remain a firm believer that if you’re feeling the need to have a talk, you probably know the answer isn’t what you’d like to hear. I can understand it after 6 – 8 weeks, but after 8 days? Moxie’s right. Focus on enjoying yourself and maybe concentrate on being someone he’d be crazy not to want to call his girlfriend.
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Jonathan you’re really onto something with this: ” Focus on enjoying yourself and maybe concentrate on being someone he’d be crazy not to want to call his girlfriend.”
First – I didn’t hear the OP say she was “really really into” this guy – she just labelled him a “unicorn”, like she had won first prize with him at the State Fair. Sounds to me like she’s caught up in winning the prize of a “unicorn” rather than whether they are really enjoying each other.
That said – 4 dates in 8 days and she’s concerned? Holy cow – sounds like he’s REALLY enjoying her company (whether it’s her company or the sex – who knows? Us guys are opportunistic – if we like you and sex is available we’ll generally accept it.)
So OP – do YOU like HIM, or do you like being the girl who won the unicorn, and “beat out all them other b*****s?”
To return to Jonathan’s great statement (and this generally holds true for both genders) – if you want to “get your man”, just focus on being the the kind of girlfriend he’d be absolutely thrilled to have. I mean seriously – it’s that simple. *Most* guys want women who are easy to spend time with – no artifical drama, are flexible (meaning that if plans change it’s not the end of the world), are able to find enjoyment in a wide variety of activities, and have a generally sunny disposition.
So often in dating we forget that it’s not about what we can *get*, but what we have to *offer*.
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Expectations are such a killer. It’s just you doing it to yourself. If you sleep with a guy, all it means is that you slept with the guy. Don’t assume more. There could be more coming, and if there is, don’t screw it up by dramas you create over having slept with him. I believe that early sex creating the deathblow to a long term relationship, is as much caused by women as men. A guy may indeed like you and have the door open for long term, but if what he faces is suddenly strange behaviors, such as guilt peddling, or pressure or demands or clamming up or whatever is way out of the normal, he may indeed run for the hills.
In the blogs yesterday, one poster suggested that if a man doesn’t call the next morning, just sends a text, then he wasn’t forthright. That is the typical type of assumption that gets people into trouble. It’s the type of over-thinking that is unnecessary. It reminds me of the testing women do where they say something contrary to see what happens. And when conflict arises, it’s the guy’s fault of course. It’s called creating a problem before there is one, then justifying those action by saying it would have happened anyway, so it was best to speed things up.
As Moxie says, you are going to have to let this play out. Stay somewhat in the same mode regarding congeniality.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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The title of this blog entry should be “And That Is Why We Can’t Have Nice Things”.
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Or “Why Some Women Can Never Be Happy With What They Have”. Eight days of dating and she’s looking for commitment/exclusivity. That’s frightening
Hot debate. What do you think?
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If she hadn’t slept with him she wouldn’t be looking for exclusivity/commitment with this much gusto. For some women, it’s a twisted picture where a man could date a women for months, not get sex, and she insists that they are just friends. And when she does this, she feels absolutely entitled to do that. Good for her, she is not wrong. However if she has sex in eight days, he must be her boyfriend or give her exclusivity.
There are many such hypocrises out there. Women still have to keep iin mind that it takes two people getting on the same page to have anything happen, whether it’s sex, exclusivity or commitment. If a woman feels she is entitled to friendzone a guy or not be harrased by some overzealous suitor, then she has to give a man the same perogative.
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For the love of sweet baby Jeebus, Nicole! You’ve been dating this guy a week. One lousy week! And you’re already playing out relationship scenarios in your head. Have you already gotten married in your head, too?
In the name of all that is holy, what ever happened to just enjoying the romance. If you’re worrying about this crap after only a week (a week!), you’re going to kill off any possibility of a relationship and send any man running for the hills.
If you’re still seeing him, and sleeping with him, every other day in a month, maybe think about having a talk (though it should be plain he’s into you by then), but broaching this subject now will certainly be the kiss of death.
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I would say, enjoy the moment, the sexy times and when is over, is over. Move on! You can date 50, 100, 300 other guys a year, so don’t get mad over this one. Do you really think this is the best you can get? My dear, there is a whole world out there full of guys, the more you date the more experience you would have and you would really know how to handle things when Mr. Right finally arrives. He will see in your eyes that you are an experienced, acomplished, independent woman, with a career and a lot of things to offer. Never give up!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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1. No she can’t shes an emotional wreck after 8 days. She is not some tough girl and you can’t pep talk her into it.
2. “Do you really think this is the best you can get” Quite possibly. A person who at least considers the possibility that this is in fact the best they can get is reasonable, and realistic, not foolish. Wouldn’t a more appropriate question be “Could I be happy with this person?” Oh wait, you are trying to land the bigger better deal. Have fun with that.
3. “Mr. Right finally arrives. He will see in your eyes that you are an experienced, acomplished, independent woman, with a career” … and you clearly have no idea what matters to men and are so self absorbed you think what a man “should” care about is exactly what you care about. Don’t want experienced. Don’t care about accomplished, healthy independent people do not hang their hat on it, and career I don’t want Mrs right too absorbed by it…. and by the way, men only “see things in your eyes” in romance novels dear. In real life you have to actually walk the walk, or it counts for nothing.
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I think this is not a “tough girl” scenario. It’s a learn-not-to-be-needy scenario. You can’t pep talk someone into that, but therapy and other types of personal work can help someone get to that place. The old saying about learning to be happy on your own applies here.
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Well said HammersAndNails!
So long as she’s focused on the BBD, she’ll never be happy.
I love this: “You can date 50, 100, 300 other guys a year..He will see in your eyes that you are an experienced…” experienced at WHAT exactly?
This girl has already slipped under the sheets in the first couple dates – nothing inherently wrong with that, but if she were to repeat this pattern 50-300 times a year? She’d be experienced all right! Is that the kind of experience she wants “Mr. Right seeing in her eyes”?
Complain about it all they want – men want women who show some prudence when it comes to having sex (and I would hope women would exxpect the same). Not BE a prude – show prudence and discretion. Who you choose to bed reflects your ability to judge people and to demonstrate some self-restraint. Just cause yer horny doesn’t mean you gotta screw the first thing that comes along – and I say this as the gender that’s supposedly screw-happy…I don’t bed a woman just cause she’s available – neither should the OP.
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How do you know you won’t like this guy in a few weeks? Relax. As long as you are both enjoying each other.
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The only way for a woman to know if a man truly wants her is to never give it up. It’s a very inconvenient truth for women today. As soon as you give it up, you might as well go for the ride and hope for the best, as Moxie said. Don’t make yourself miserable trying to gauge what the guy wants and don’t ruin whatever fun you guys are asking by badgering him after a few dates.
Again, sex is the one thing men want from women. After this, women want (for the most part) commitment from men. I don’t know how women don’t get that they are losing EPICALLY by giving up the sex fast when the men don’t even want to THINK in relationship terms.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Following that logic we might as well abolish sex – the outcome then would be only happy couples, right?
How about just enjoying sex?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Sounds to me like you didn’t follow the logic too closely. The point is simple: People need to take actions that help them achieve their goals. If you are a woman looking for commitment from a man, you are putting yourself in a tough spot by sleeping with him right away.
If you want to play that game, then just go with the flow and see how it goes, with no major expectations.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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No, your post really doesn’t make sense.
So if withholding sex inherently helps achieve a woman’s goals (if that’s even true on a bargain level), how long should that be done? “For a while”? Until the guy promises he’ll be a B/F? Until engagement? Marriage?
No option among the above makes sense.
If it’s pre-B/F, the guy can just get sex somewhere else, so he need give up nothing, overtly.
If it’s when he’s a (presumably exclusive) B/F, that is also pointless because (1) the relationship can still just end when he finds someone “better” (or simply sleeps with another woman), or (2) he could simply be dishonest and promise exclusivity but continue to date/sleep around.
If it’s engagement or marriage, you are imposing such an inordinate wait time as to be self defeating; or cheapening engagement or marriage to simply be “that point at which you get sex”.
Echoing a point Moxie has made repeatedly, there’s nothing compulsory about marriage anymore. Either party can walk away at any time with no fault. It’s just a BF-GF “promise” with jewelry, so the notion of it being some sort of “finish line” you can cross and then relax is silly. A marriage or even long-term relationship only makes sense by virtue of wanting to be with the person more than anyone else, for as long as that lasts. How withholding sex actually *aids* that is beyond me. Try it *within* a marriage, for example, and you’ll get infidelity…. But I’m sure this is *less* likely to happen at preliminary stages!
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Either party can walk away at any time with no fault.
HA! I got lucky with my divorce, but I have a friend whose divorce has cost him $2 million in legal fees alone. Of course, that’s not the norm — he’s shopping a book about it because it’s so epic — but I know a few guys who’ve gotten shafted pretty hard. Why should a man take that risk?
In my younger days I used to joke that I never wanted to get married because I never wanted to get divorced. Fortunately it worked out for me — the divorce was the catalyst for a lot of personal growth — but surely more and more men are adopting this attitude.
The only reason I can see to get married is if you want to have children. Check that. Not just “want,” but have a burning desire for them.These days I’m more interested in mentoring kids through a Boys Club than raising my own.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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have a friend whose divorce has cost him $2 million in legal fees alone. Of course, that’s not the norm — he’s shopping a book about it because it’s so epic — but I know a few guys who’ve gotten shafted pretty hard. Why should a man take that risk?
Right… this just supports my point. Marriage today has so many disincentives, game-theoretically, it really needs to be based on an intrinsically-sound relationship more than ever. This is something that “holding out for sex” is, frankly, less willing to foster (a sound relationship is more likely IN LIGHT OF other opportunities, not in the absence of them).
I just can’t picture anything but looming disaster for a couple that consisted of a modern marrying-age woman (late 20s to late 30s) withholding sex until marriage, and a man who abides by this (doesn’t sleep around or date others secretly) and is actually OK with it.
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The post makes complete sense. But I realize that what I am proposing is not realistic, because nobody has any damn self control any more.
Steve Harvey in his book says 3 months. I say, if you are an attractive women and you hold out until marriage, you WILL find a man to marry you. Not that it is realistic in this day and age, but theoretically, the longer you make a man wait…The more he is willing to put on the line. Of course this only works if you are really a quality woman, not some confused chick that’s slept around and are now trying to game some schmuck.
I know this is tough to pull off as one woman. The culture needs to change all together, and women need to realize that they screwed themselves (literally) trying to act like men. Why should a man get to sample the goods without buying (Getting into a monogamous relationship)?
I love this quote from Ryan Gosling’s character in Crazy Stupid Love
“The gender war is over and we won. We won the second women started taking pole dancing classes for exercise.”
Hot debate. What do you think?
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No your post makes no sense. Steve Harvey’s ex-wife accused him of cheating while they were married so you’re following the logic of a guy who couldn’t even practice his own beliefs. What you’re really saying is that a man has to prove higher and higher levels of commitment “…the more he is willing to put on the line” without receiving any reciprocity from the woman. Let’s say the”quality woman” whom your paragon of male virtue has now married turns out not to enjoy sex? The man has jumped through hoops for nothing and has only bought a divorce proceeding.
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Is there any way to delicately broach this in conversation (ie, ask him if he sees any LTR potential with us or not) or do I just let it go and ride it out until he either a) dumps me, or b) we end up dating exclusively?
No there isn’t – just ride it out. The conversation the OP is inquiring about is “the talk”. If she attempts to have that talk just 8 days after meeting the dude, she is almost surely going to be dumped – and who could blame the guy? No one wants to date a desperate, instantly lovestruck nutjob. So don’t be one. What the OP wants here is the emimination of any risk. That’s what all women want in relations with men, which is why most of them refuse to ask men out. But life doesn’t work that way. Anything worth having comes with some risk involved when attempting to acquire it.
Instead of worrying about where things are going just a week after meeting someone, enjoy the ride and see where it goes. After about three months is a good time to wonder where things are going. Before then, the well-adjusted among us are still just getting to know the person, not planning our wedding. Dating is supposed to be fun no matter where it goes, not a high-risk game. If this guy is as gorgeous and successful as the OP claims, then he’s got options. Thus her sole goal at this juncture is to become his best option. That means for the next few weeks be a lot of fun, available, low maintenance, low drama, plus fuck his brains out and have a good time doing it. It ain’t often any of us get to fuck a unicorn – so just let that be enough for now and enjoy it while you wait to see where it goes.
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What the OP wants here is the emimination of any risk. That’s what all women want in relations with men, which is why most of them refuse to ask men out. But life doesn’t work that way. Anything worth having comes with some risk involved when attempting to acquire it.
Hear, hear! Thank god someone finally said it…
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I think the important question here is what do the dates entail. Is it getting wasted at a bar and then having sex? Is it meeting up at each other’s place to have sex? Is it making plans to hook up while you’re both already out anyway? Or are the actual dates where you talk? Get to know each other? Actually put in the effort to see each other in terms of time and appearance?
I think that’s how you tell if he’s just sleeping with you while looking for a girlfriend, or if he thinks maybe you have potential.
It’s not the fact that you “had sex early” that matters, in my opinion, but rather what you’re doing (or not doing) in addition to the sex that tells you what kind of relationship you have.
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Great post. Sex only has great importance when you are not having it. Ignore the sex. Look at what you have left. There is the best answer you are going to get.
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Hi, OP here:
Date #1 – we met at a bar for drinks, an hour and 45 mins or so
Date #2 – dinner at a very nice restaurant he picked. Lovely.
Date #3 – he bought groceries and brought them back to my place and we cooked. He spent the night.
Date #4 – we went out to a restaurant and then walked to his place to watch a movie. Nothing but a little making out.
The thing that I’m uncomfortable with is that while I he texted a lot between dates 1 and 2, and then dates 2 and 3, he really doesn’t text me at all anymore. Our last date was Sunday. I haven’t heard from him since. That can’t be good, right?
I really appreciate all the advice on this forum. For the record I am not emotionally unstable, just new to the dating game since I got married at 22 and divorced at 30. This is all new to me and I don’t know the rules.
Thanks.
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Wait. After date 4 there was no sex? Ruh roh.
Yeah, sorry. This guy has moved on.
PS? Ladies, stop falling for the “let’s make dinner together” thing on date two and three.
PPS? Stop listening to other women about how dates are supposed to consist of XYZ or they aren’t “real dates.” That cutesy date where they bought groceries and made dinner together? Yeah. Guess what? Not so much real as disingenuous. And look. They had 4 ‘real dates” and he still backed off.
The guy was either never really looking for a girlfriend or he wants a GF so badly that he went right into “relationship mode” and then decided he wasn’t interested.
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There was a physical situation (the obvious one) causing lack of sex. Really? He’s moved on because of that? Wouldn’t any guy in his 30s who had ever had a girlfriend know about the period thing?
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Maybe it would be easier if you gave us the whole story instead of dribs and drabs. I still don’t understand how having your period could prevent you from doing anything but making out. Unless you didn’t just make out. It would be really helpful if you told the whole story and didn’t leave important details out.
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Also. You’ve had sex once and you’re already wondering about where things are headed? You have to do what you can to just sit tight and wait.I know it’s hard, but if you even try to broach a conversation like this after only sleeping together once most guys are going to think you’re extremely needy and clingy.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Please enlighten us as to what state is ‘Vu’? I’m mystified here. And again, never underestimate the whole ‘incompetence’ factor. Feckless is as feckless does. Yes, even @ 30 ‘something’. SSDD. Cheers, ‘VJ’
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Virginia. Was supposed to be VA. Sorry. I’m inexperienced at dating, I’m emotionslly fragile, and I didn’t proofread. sorry.
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_”Maybe it would be easier if you gave us the whole story instead of dribs and drabs. I still don’t understand how having your period could prevent you from doing anything but making out. Unless you didn’t just make out”_
We made out, close came off, and as it got closer do do-or-die time, I made a joke and said “I’m trying to say we have to keep it closer to PG-13 this time,” and in response he acknowledged that he knew what I meant. He said I could stay the night anyway, even without the sex, which I probably would have done had it not been a “school night,” and since I wasn’t expecting it to be a sleepover I didn’t bring any of my stuff to get ready for work the next day, so I had to go home.
I can’t believe you’re actually telling me that because I’m human/woman and have a cycle that I’v lost it with this guy. That makes no sense.
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sorry, “clothes came off”
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Okay. First of all, you’re an adult. If you have your period, you say you have your period. You don’t hint around at it hoping the guy will figure it out. Secondly, of course he still asked you to stay over. If he didn’t, he’d look like a jerk. Third, if I’m to be really honest, you knew what he was expecting when he invited you to his place. The time to tell the guy that you had your period was before you got back to his place, or definitely before you started to hook up. You don’t throw that bloody/bloated curve ball after this guy is pretty certain he’s getting laid.
It’s Wednesday. You haven’t heard from him since Sunday. He went from texting every day to sleeping with you to barely texting anymore. THAT’S why I said he’s moving on.
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A few things.
Sometimes dating doesn’t make sense. People get turned off by any number of random things. Maybe he had a great time, but couldn’t get past what you sound like when you clear your throat. Stuff like that really does happen.
That said, I rather doubt it was your period that killed your chances. More likely it was just that you got to date 4, and in spite of doing “couply” stuff, the guy lost interest for whatever reason. You might still hear from him tonight (Sunday to Wednesday isn’t ideal, but maybe he was busy the past few days). But if not, figure he’s moved on. Again, these things happen. While it isn’t a hard-and-fast rule, the 4 date mark is one of those threshold moments, I’ve found. You’ve had some good dates, but maybe you’re starting to think “Hmm. This may not go anywhere” or maybe you found someone else you like better. You say this guy’s a unicorn, so he may have other options.
And if that’s the case, no biggie. Chances are it was nothing about you that did it. We often assume that we have FAR more control over what happens in dating than we actually do. While it’s true that you can easily sabotage things for yourself (e.g. asking the guy to be exclusive after 4 dates in the span of 8 days), you can likewise do everything just fine and still have it fizzle for no reason other than “Just wasn’t feeling the spark to keep things going.” That happens. A few years back, I had a run for about 5 months where I’d get to about date 3 or 4 with a girl and just realize that while it was fun, it wasn’t giving me what I wanted. While those girls may have been fine in an objective sense, I wanted something else. That was all about me and what was going on in my head, and had very little to do with them.
The moral here: don’t take it personally. It ain’t always about you. The additional moral: if it isn’t always about you, that means you don’t have to worry as much about trying to control where/how things go. If he digs you, he’ll spend time with you and make an effort to do so. If he doesn’t, he won’t. And the same goes for you, too.
You’re new to dating, but your description of your experiences all sounds pretty typical. Actually, better than typical. In 2 months you’ve been on 30 dates? You’re doing FINE. The bulk of people you meet dating you just don’t click with, unless you’re incredibly selective, and even then you can still end up hitting the wall around date 4. But finding 2 out of 30 that really grab your attention? Yeah, that sounds about right. Look at it this way, though. You’re clearly attractive enough and/or have an interesting enough profile to get plenty of dates. Figure that somewhere in there you’ll find someone you like to spend time with. This guy won’t be the last. And chances are he won’t be the last guy where it fizzles — either on his part or on your part.
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No, unfortunately I said I’ve met about 12-13 people in 2 months. Not 30.
Anyway, I talked to him on the phone last night and he suggested getting together over the weekend. It sounds like most of you think he won’t follow through on that, which I guess I have to learn to accept.
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Because you called him, yes?
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Well, he texted me and asked if now was a good time to talk and I said yes. So I called him. Yes, it’s true – I called him rather than him calling me. Should I now block his number so I don’t do anything further to humiliate myself?
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Back up. He texted you first? He wasn’t answering a text from you that said you wanted to talk?
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He may follow through on getting together this weekend, but yeah, I would say it’s not going anywhere beyond that. It is pretty common to get to that 3 or 4 date point and the guy just stops asking you out, for whatever reason. If you contact him, he may go out with you again, but if he’s stopped calling / texting / asking you out, and the most you have right now is a suggestion that you “get together this weekend” based on you calling him… I’d say he’s lost interest.
Also, it may help you out in the future not to be so available. I know some people will disagree, but being available for 4 dates in a week, and agreeing to dinner on a late-afternoon invite for same night – I think it makes you seem too available, like you have nothing else going on.
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Ok, maybe with the new news that he texted you and asked to talk, this is more promising than it looks. I hope he follows up with something more concrete than just “getting together over the weekend.”
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@anthatswhyyouresingle: He texted ME asking if now was an ok time to talk on the phone.
I said yes and called him.
He said he wanted to know if I wanted to go to a comedy club and a) was that something I was interested in, and b) if so, which night would be better, Friday or Saturday.
4 minute conversation.
I’m totally confused.
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If he initiated this conversation and asked you out, as you claim he did, then why did you say earlier this am/late last night that you were emotionally fragile and why are we even having this conversation? I would think that if he contacted you last night, then the confusion would have been avoided.
The way you’re telling it, it sounds like you texted him saying you wanted to talk on the phone. Is that right? I find it strange that this guy would text you to ask to talk on the phone and then you called him.
If you’re going to tell a story, it serves you best to tell a full, accurate story.
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Oh for the love of…. He contacted you first. THAT’s the key detail, not whether it was by text or by phone. You have a maddening knacl for both leaving out essential details and focusing on irrelevant details.
Sorry but nobody will believe you are this clueless, I don’t care how long you’ve been out of dating. Honestly.
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I hear you, but it took a week for us to schedule date #1 b/c of all the stuff I had going on the week of Thanksgiving. My schedule freed up over the holidays so I was trying to be accommodating and not play games.
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Well, Moxie and Kay were right. I got dumped this morning.
So there’s the denouement there.
Thanks, guys, for trying.
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How did this come about? What happened?
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By last night I still hadn’t heard about the tix for the show we were supposed to go to (he’d said it’d either be Friday or Saturday, so I texted a v. brief message at about 7 pm, “any news on whether Friday or Saturday?”. He didn’t reply. Waited a little while and texted again trying to make a joke about what happened Sunday (the non-sex). I guess it didn’t translate well over text. Anyway, with no reply by Thursday morning I just called him. And he said he was done. So that’s that. I think as Moxie and Kay pointed out, he had lost interest way before — as soon as he went from texting “when can I see you again?” after every date to stone-cold silence once we’d slept together.
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Ok. Fess up. He didn’t initiate the conversation with you the other night, did he? You sent him a text saying you wanted to talk, am I right? I’m asking this not to humiliate you but to help you understand what happened.
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At the moment I’m sufficiently mortified, believe, me, so there’s no need to layer more humiliation on top of it. The other night I called him to apologize for the weirdness on Sunday, yes. but I think the underlying reason here is he just wasn’t that into me, and I didn’t pick up on the clues early on.
Here’s just one more fact pattern that I’m curious if anyone thinks is relevant.
On our second, fancy-schmancy dinner date, he drove me home at my apt. He later texted to say what a fantastic time he had and I replied “Thank YOU so much for dinner and for driving me home.”
he replied “Well, when you like someone, you make sure they get home ok.”
Remember the “movie night” where I went to his apartment and there was making out and no sex? He didn’t even walk me out of his apartment building and make sure I got a cab – or ask me to text when I got home, etc. Is this material or no?
I guess it’s really not. Dumped is dumped and I’m pretty upset. .But just wondered if anyone had any thoughts.
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That sucks. I think he did like you initially, but something happened after date 2 or 3. I think you’re probably right to pinpoint the point where he went from texting you all the time to silence once you slept together. So, what happened? Either the sex wasn’t good or you did something that freaked him out, those seem like the two most plausible options. He did *contact you* to ask you to dinner Sunday, right (the no-sex date). Correct? And then you didn’t hear from him at all after that until you called him to apologize for the weirdness. Is that right? Just trying to get the facts straight.
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He found someone else between Thursday morning when he left my apartment and Sunday night when I left his. End scene.
No, not end scene. You’re accepting the convenient explanation and, as DMN said, getting inexplicably defensive whenever anybody suggests that you played an equal role in why this played out the way it did. If this guy had wanted to see you again, he would have. He didn’t. The trick here is to pinpoint why he no longer wanted to see you again and learn from it. Not sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn’t happen. And whether you want to hear it or not, you annoyed him. Multiple times, I’m guessing. Maybe needy wasn’t accurate. Maybe the accurate description of your behavior was more nagging.
The problem here is that you don’t know how to just sit back and let things happen, not do you know how to communicate effectively. If you’re half as confusing and circular in real life as you are in this thread, then that’s a big reason why men might find you annoying. You’re 30 years old ad you still hint at having your period. When you find yourself continuously qualifying or explaining yourself, that’s a sign that you know you did something ‘wrong.” That’s why you’re getting defensive. You are all over the place. First he’s a unicorn, then he’s socially awkward, then he’s terrible in bed. Sweetheart, if you that was the case, you wouldn’t give a shit about any of this. So stop lying to yourself and deflecting and chasing your tail. Yes, he sounds off. But so do you. So fix whatever it is that makes you so anxious and obsessive and lack impulse control and forget about him. The problem isn’t just him. It’s you.
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OK, he’s a unicorn because he’s got a job, earns a lot of money, and is good looking – and 33. That makes him the OKC unicorn. That does not de facto mean that he’s not socially awkward or terrible in bed. You can imply that I’m sour grapes all you want; he was. I was there. You don’t believe me? Fine. Circular? All over the place? Yup and yup. I certainly am. And I imagine anyone who had a highly compressed and unnaturally accelerrated “romance” that ended this morning would, in fact, be all over the place and circular. Defensive? Just trying to get all of the facts straight.
Do I annoy men? Yeah, probably. I’m sure lots of people fo. Did I play a role in the relationship’s demise? Um, YES. No question. Impulse control? I might as well write you a check for $140 right now, because that’s what I pay my therapist to tell me the same damn thing every week. Yes, I have an impulse control problem. And it bit me in the ass here. You win.
That doesn’t mean someone better didn’t come along — someone that was less annoying, maybe.
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In my opinion, that’s more just evidence that he was already kinda losing interest.
In my experience, these kinds of pressure-cooker “relationships” are uncommon, but when they happen, they play out pretty much as you described. You see someone a whole bunch of times in a pretty tight timeframe, based on some good initial chemistry on your first date or two. There’s very little time in between dates to “cool off” and reflect on how things are going, what you like about this person, etc. Sex enters the picture around date 3, but that’s also happening on, like, day 5-6 of knowing the person. Most of your interaction is in person, or by text. After around date 4, it fizzles.
Pressure cooker “relationships” often don’t work because they tend to be based largely on a particular kind of intensity that’s impossible to maintain for very long. So, when that intensity inevitably starts to fade, one of the parties (although sometimes both) loses interest, and calls it off (or just fades on you).
So, on date 2, this guy’s being super romantic. By date 4, he’s being a little more blase about things. That, right there, is things fizzling.
My bet is that while you could’ve maybe handled yourself a little better, the real culprit here was the loss of that feeling of intensity. That probably had not too much to do with you, really, and my bet is that this would’ve happened sooner or later. You may have hastened the process by being a little more insistent than this guy wanted, but realistically this was gonna fizzle eventually regardless. It might be that the lack of sex on date #4 helped kill the momentum of whatever intensity was there, but I still think that probably would’ve happened eventually anyway.
I’m still unclear on the sequence of events, in terms of how contact with him proceeded after date #4 (the no-sex-at-his-place date where he didn’t walk you out). I know you’re the one who dialed the phone. What I can’t tell is if you’re the one who instigated the contact at all. Did he text you out of the blue asking if now was a good time to talk, or did you text him first saying you’d like to talk, he asked if now was a good time, you said yes and called him?
If he texted you out of the blue, then I don’t think it really matters that you apologized re: Sunday during the call in and of itself. If you’re the one who initiated it, I think it still isn’t the kiss of death, although it cuts against you to some degree. Likewise, I don’t think — in and of itself — asking the guy about plans when you haven’t heard back yet is necessarily the kiss of death.
To the extent you had anything to do with killing things with this guy, I think what did it is him picking up on a general sense of anxiety/insecurity from you, coupled with a bit of insistence that he keep following through. You weren’t cool with just sitting back and seeing if he’d call to ask you out. Whether he contacted you out of the blue after Sunday, or you contacted him, I’m betting he picked up on that to some degree in your conversation. Likewise, while asking him “Any word re: Saturday?” over text when it’s Thursday and you haven’t heard a peep is relatively neutral, following it up with another half-joke/half-apology re: Sunday is a sign that you’re worried/insecure about what happened.
That kind of stuff is off-putting to guys. With good guys, it makes them feel guilty and may prompt a “Look, this isn’t going anywhere” call. With guys who don’t really care one way or the other how you feel, I expect it’s just annoying. So, in the future, I’d say hold your fire longer. Even if you hadn’t heard anything from him by Friday morning, there’s actually no need to contact him. If he wants to make it happen Friday or Saturday, he’ll be in touch. If he’s not contacting you, well, sometimes no message is the only message you need. Make another plan with someone else, or enjoy a night in. But getting pushy/insistent/clingy/insecure is just a turn-off. Note: I don’t think it’s pushy or insecure to wonder about plans when the guy’s told you “Friday or Saturday,” and you haven’t heard a thing by Thursday (although I’d wait until Thursday night, at least, before following up IF you’re gonna do that). But I’ve found that people tend to reveal their level of interest (or lack thereof) if you just…let ‘em do so. You want to know if he digs you? Don’t worry. His actions will tell you one way or the other.
All that aside, I think the bottom line is that this guy was losing interest. I don’t know what makes him tick, but he may just be chasing that early-date high and this is a repeated pattern for him — several intense initial dates followed by an immediate drop-off. That could have NOTHING to do with you, although you might hasten his departure by revealing that the fizzling makes you feel anxious.
Anyway, you’ve now gone through this experience, and that’s good. Hopefully you’ve learned from it. Things I’d take away from this:
- Don’t get sucked into the intensity thing where intensity is ALL that’s driving the dating. Take a little time off between dates. 4 dates in 8 days means you’re seeing each other with maybe a day in between dates. That’s not long enough to get past your “date high” and think clearly about the guy — and vice versa.
- Don’t keep trying to “control” how this goes. Do your thing and let the chips fall where they may. That doesn’t mean you should indulge whatever whims you have, but you don’t need to grip the glass so tightly, so to speak. You don’t need answers or definitions or declarations. The guy will show you or tell you how he feels one way or the other. Not only will this help avoid you coming across as clingy, you may also find that you’re a lot less bothered when it doesn’t work out.
- Don’t assume you’re in a “relationship” after a week. Pressure cooker “relationships” aren’t real relationships. He’s not really into you because he doesn’t KNOW you. He’s into how you’re making him feel in the moment, and that can change pretty quickly. (Which is why I say take a little longer between dates, too.)
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A lot of good points, but given what Nicole has told us on this thread, and how she’s told it to us, makes me think she exhibited some behavior that freaked the guy out.
Sure, it’s always possible that he wasn’t as interested as he thought at first, or was just looking for sex, but my gut feeling here is that she freaked him out.
Either way, it’s over, most first and second dates don’t lead to relationships, and these two were not going to make it, but I think there’s a lesson here somewhere for Nicole.
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What weirdness on Sunday? Nicole, judging by your refusal to answer specific questions, I’m going to guess that this isn’t a simple case of he’s just not that into you. You clearly freaked this guy out with your questions and calls and insecurity.
If he didn’t even bother to walk you out after your fourth date, then SOMETHING transpired that you’re not sharing. So please start being honest so that we can help you figure out what went wrong so you don’t keep doing it.
I’m also going to ask K. and D. to refrain from commenting until Nicole answers the specific question being asked to her.
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My “refusal” to answer certain questions is purely based on the fact that I’m still gobsmacked over what happened this morning (even though — yes — it’s probably my f’ing fault to begin with).
I’ve got my Verizon text-messaging record here so that I don’t get any of the relveant “who-called-whom” and “who-texted-whom” details wrong.
This was a 10-day relationship, so recounting it should be pretty simple.
1. He contacted me on OKC (I don’t initiate contact on OKC – not saying that’s right or better, just saying I don’t do it). He asked me out in his first email. I liked his profile and message so I accepted. This was on a Sunday. It was the Sunday before Thanskgiving. I said I’d be out of town until the following Saturday.
2. He didn’t get back to me for 3 days (ie, until Wed) to confirm plans. By then, I’d already made plans with friends (which involved the purchase of nonrefundable tickets) and said “sorry, now I can’t do Sat at 8.” We make alternate plans. Sat at 6.
3. Saturday — We have our first date. It went fine. No great, but fine. By the time I get from the bar TO MY HOME, there’s a text from him saying “I had such a great time; I can”t wait to see you again!” Texted me the next morning (Sunday): “How was the show?”. Then again Sunday afternoon. “Can I see you tomorrow?” Then on Sunday night, Inviting me out for dinner Monday. At this point, he’s a heavy texter.
4. We go out Monday. To a restaurant. It’s lovely,. He drives me home. While we are STILL in the CAR, he says “are you free on Wednesday?” i was. I agree. Fine.
5. On Wednesday, he comes over. We eat and then we….get busy. He spends the night. Leaves Thurs morning. I go to work.
6. I don’t hear from him all day Thurs. I get a text on Friday @3:30 pm saying “Happy Friday! Any plans for the weekend?” I hate texting, so I “pull a Moxie” and give a reply that’s simple and polite but still closed-ended. “Happy Friday to you, too. Just leaving work now and headed to a happy hour. Hope your lunch meeting went well.” He throws a few more texts my way, but no invites to meet up over weekend. I’m bummed, but I can handle it.
7. I don”t hear from him till Sunday afternoon, asking me for dinner that night, We eat out. Go back to his place. Watch a movie. He tries to have sex. I cannot. After a couple of minutes of “making out” partially clothed he literally hands me my coat and says “I’ll see you later this week?” I say “ok” and “goodnight.”
8. After that, no more texts until Tuesday evening. That’s when the question of the comedy club came up and he texed asking if that’s something I’d want to d. I said “it would be easier to talk about this on the phone” he said “is now a good time? and I said “Yes – I’ll call you now.” *That’s* when I initially apologized about the no-sex awkwardness on Sunday. It was actually the first time I’d ever spoken to him on the phone.
9. Wednesday night, 7 pm – I text him (this is the FIRST and ONLY time I proactively texted him. I hate texting). “Any news on Fri or Sat?” Pretty benign as far as texts go. And short. I have lots of friends in the area, and while I wanted to go out with M, I had backup plans if he wasn’t available.
10. He didn’t respond to that. Or the follow-up one where I made a joke about him not getting any on Sunday and how that was my fault. No response to that either.
11. Break-up this morning.
Sorry for all of the detail, but I fail to see where I scared him off or freaked him out. I do not, as a rule, call or text men first. But i reply to texts promptly. I only texted first once in this scenario, and it’s true — it killed everything. I am not being self-congratulatory AT ALL when I say this – I’m just stating the facts here: but he seemed more into it than I was into him during our brief, 9-day “thing.” HE was the one who kept throwing in “we should do this,” “we should do that,” “we should watch ‘Love, Actually’ together at Christmas….*I* was not.
So for real, without ever texting him (and even the text exhanges he initiated were minimal) OR calling him OR inviting him to ANYTHING, I’m having a hard time understanding what I did to freak him out. Truly. Other than have my period.
So please, Moxie, please tell me. I’ve told you all I’ve got.
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Okay. It sounds like there were a number of issues at work that led to the outcome.
I agree with DMN that this guy was immediately suspect just because he was an “OK Cupid Unicorn” yet scheduled 4 dates in a week. If he’s relatively good looking and normal and genuinely seeking a relationship he should have a line of women waiting to date him. This guy was way too eager and available himself. So either this guy just wanted some sex, got it and bailed or this guy is desperate and pushes things along and then has that moment of clarity where he realizes he’s not really interested.
Next comes the whole 4dateGate. Something happened that caused him to literally hand you your coat while you’re still half dressed. He clearly wanted sex and when he found out he wasn’t going to have it he got rid of you. I still maintain that he was annoyed that you didn’t tell him about having your period before you went back to his place. He checked out at that point and put his bait back into the pond. He was probably going to keep you on the hook for a little while more, but immediately cut you loose when you started getting clingy with the texts and calls.
Either way, you were going to end up here eventually.
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“Started getting clingy with the texts and calls?” We’re talking 1 of each promulgated by me in the course of 9 days? One of each sends a clingy vibe? I am asking this honestly, because I don’t want this to happen to me again.
As far as being annoyed about the period….well, I guess I shouldn’t have accepted the dinner date to begin with. I guess you shouldn’t accept dates for that same night because it a) makes you seem too available, and 2) screams booty call. The fact that it was a Sunday night (and not a Friday or Saturday night, which everyone knows are prime date nights) prob also didn’t bode well, right? I should have just said I already had plans and this whole mess would have been avoided. But I did like him and did really want to see him. So anyway, I got f’ed.
Just curious (again, trying to learn) — why are you saying that “either way, you were going to end up here eventually?
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I’m going to disagree a bit with Moxie. I do agree that if this guy is relatively good looking, normal, and interesting, he’s probably got a number of women in line.
Where I disagree is that the guy was just looking for some booty. The reaction on Sunday night is a key tell. He may have been annoyed that you surprised him with the news that you couldn’t get frisky, but most guys understand that, hey, this happens. His rather abrupt reaction says that he really wasn’t that into you beyond sex. Period.
I suspect he would have been fine keeping you on the line as a “just in case” but found someone else in the last few days when he wasn’t responding to your texts.
I don’t think he got freaked out by any “clinginess.” I actually don’t think that it was much of anything that you did. He just lost interest when he likely found a new prospect.
Sometimes, over-analyzing will only serve to drive you crazy. My guess is you were slightly more into him than he was into you. Not much you can do about it. I suggest just letting this one go…
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Two texts and a phone call in less than 24 hours is clingy and annoying. I’ve had people do that with me and I immediately get turned off. No answer is an answer. Compulsively contacting him to find out about some super important comedy club date just made her seem frantic and needy. My guess is that when she called him the conversation escalated into her spilling her guts about how she wondered where things were going. I also stand by my assertion that something happened Sunday night that caused him to want her out of his apartment as soon as possible. She said there was ‘weirdness” on Sunday. Something turned him off. Maybe it was the lack of sex. Maybe it’s her neurotic overthinking and inability to not say whatever she’s feeling at any given time.
This is not a simple case of “it’s not you, it’s him.”
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OK, hold on, Mox — here’s the deal. You are hyperbolizing the scene at his apartment a little bit – and maybe that’s my fault for how I initially told the story. He didn’t hand me my coat when I was half dressed. We went over to his apartment to watch a movie. The guy happens to be loaded and has a sweet apartment and I have no doubt that he leverages that apartment to woo women. We cuddled and kissed, etc, on the couch during the movie. Once the movie was over, he wanted to “take things to the bedroom.” While the clothes were coming off, I said “um, I can’t spend the night” [which was a stupid thing to say because what I really meant was 'I can't have sexual intercourse with you right now.] He didn’t get that, so he said, “But I will drive you home,” to which I had to say “No, what I mean is: we have to keep it more PG-13 this time. Ya dig?” To which HE correctly replied “Oh, so you have your period” [BTW, I am totally mortified even typing this.] I said yes. Clothes were already half off anyway so we made out on the bed for awhile. I made a motion to get up and go (it was nearly 12:30, and it was a “schoolnight.’) THAT conversation was the “awkwardness” of which I speak. I hate tipping my hand to men that I am human. (Yes, I am Charlotte York from SATC in a slightly less attractive package.) Once I walked toward the door, he got y coat and assisted me with putting it on, but stopped short of actually walking downstairs and making sure I got into the cab. I disagree with your assessment that “something set him off that made him want to get [me] out of his apartment as soon as possible. We made out on the couch during the movie. We made out in the bedroom after the movie. There’s only so much making out you can do before you feel like you’re in junior high again. Neurotic overthinking? For sure. You’ve got me there. I’ll cop to that. Inability to say what I’m feeling at any given time? Hm. I’m pretty transparent about my feelings – sometimes to my benefit and sometimes to my detriment.
As for the texting thing — if *I* texted too much, then he *definitely* texted too much. “I had a great time” “How was the comedy show?” “When can I see you again?” “Where’s happy hour?” and on and on and on. Don’t call me out on that behavior when I was only mirroring his own. But barely.
And no, I never spilled my guts about wanting to know where the relationship was going. EVER. Never made a peep.
Someone else (sorry, can’t find it now) hit the nail on the head, I think. He found someone else between Thursday morning when he left my apartment and Sunday night when I left his. End scene. And you know what? You were right the other day when you said in response to my initial post that “that’s dating. It won’t kill you.” It is. And it won’t.
He was quite frankly terrible in bed (sometimes the good-looking ones are because they never had to work at it) and I’m currently planning a vacation with an out-of-town OKC “F-buddy.” See, I’m healing. I’ll live.
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Well, there we go.
I still disagree that the texting and the contact were the problem. I don’t really see that as clingy. But I guess Mox and I will have to agree to disagree.
But, Nicole, the truth reveals.
I made a motion to get up and go (it was nearly 12:30, and it was a “schoolnight.’) THAT conversation was the “awkwardness” of which I speak.
You were making out during the movie, and then making out on (or in) his bed. He definitely expected something. Intercourse isn’t the only thing two people can do there, and I’m going to bet he expected something more than making out. You’re right that you can only make out so long before it’s junior high. You left; he expected more. I can’t say conclusively what conclusions he drew from that, but I’ll bet they weren’t good ones. The thing is you could but for whatever reason didn’t. That’s why this night was the key.
I get that you don’t like texting, but that’s how things are done these days with people who are even minimally tech savvy. Hell, my 91-year-old mom has taken to texting, email, and social media. You may need to get over this.
Elsewhere in this thread you questioned someone’s statement that you were dating out of your league. But this comment that he was loaded with a “sweet” apartment indicates that he had options and was exercising them. Take it as a lesson; you may be in the same situation again, and hopefully will handle it better.
Good thing you have something else planned. Get beyond this, don’t take short-term things like this too personally, and get back in the game. If you can take the lessons learned and stay positive, you seem to have the tools to be able to succeed in the harsh world of Dating 2.0…
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“Ladies, stop falling for the “let’s make dinner together” thing on date two and three.”
Not so mich falling for it, as understanding what you’re agreeing to when you accept such a date.
As for men understanding women and their periods – yes, I would guess men generally understand and accept it, especially in early dates. But patience is not unlimited. I had a woman recently suggest, as a third (or maybe fourth date) that we stay in at my place, order in, watch a movie and have a low-key night. Then, it turned out she had her period (which I know to be true.) So, that was a little rude, I thought.
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Sorry, I don’t think that just because you’ve started sleeping with someone that you’re “entitled” to sex every time you get together. It was as”rude” for you to invite her over because she had her period? You couldn’t just enjoy her company and get to know her without getting busy? Wow. That’s amazing.
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You said yourself that you’re inexperienced. Here’s a crash course: men like sex and like to have it as often as possible.Do they want to hang out and share and bond? Not especially. They do it because they know we like it and need it to have the sexy time, so they do it to get the sex. If sex isn’t an option, then they don’t want to hang out. Memorize that.
DMN invited her over before she decided to spring upon him that she had her period. That’s sneaky. Men hate sneaky women. Commit that to memory, too.
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When he invited me out for dinner that night, I had NO IDEA we were going to go back to his place. In fact, the be honest, I actually thought when he texted me at 3:30 to invite me to go to dinner that same Sunday night at 7:30 that it might be the “breakup dinner.” So are you essentially saying that I should have turned down the date because I had my period? really? I like thhe guy, and I’m trying to be available, but I honestly was supposed to say, “I can’t have dinner with you because I’m having my period?” Or — when we started going back to his place — I should have said “Oh, by the way, I can’t sleep with you tonight because I’m having my period?”
I’m truly not being combative. Really. I’m just saying I was definitely not sneaky. I really do need to know how I should handled that differently.
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I said you should have told the guy, BEFORE YOU AGREED TO GO BACK TO HIS PLACE, that you had your period. He was expecting sex. You had to know that. It’s only fair to him to alert him to the fact that sex was not on the table for that night.
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I actually thought … that it might be the “breakup dinner.”
Uh, after only a week of dating, there is no such thing as a “breakup dinner.” Maybe after 6 months, but probably not even then. After only a week, you’d be lucky to get a phone call or a text…
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If sex isn’t an option, then they don’t want to hang out.
That’s going a bit far. If I’m even remotely interested in a woman, I’ll invest in a sexless date or two iff (a) we’ve already had sex at least once, and (b) I know the score going in or at least early on. What pisses me off is when a woman plays that card when we get back to her place at the end of the date, when I’ve been eagerly anticipating getting laid all night.
Also, a period does not rule out anything sexual. A blowjob still works fine, as does anal if you’re into that. While most guys aren’t likely to want to go down on you (I’m pretty open-minded, but even I have limits), many will have no problem with vaginal sex; just throw down a dark-colored towel.
A woman is going spend up to a quarter of her teens to forties on the rag (depending on her chosen birth control method, if any), so anyone–male or female–that is squeamish about doing anything sexual during that time has probably never had a healthy LTR. It literally goes with the territory, so learn to deal with it.
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Nicolr, I can see you’re one of those people who deliberately misinterpret things so you can feign indignation. Alright, I’ll bite since we don’t have enough pointless trolling around here.
She wanted the “stay in” date, I didn’t suggest it or invite her. That’s why it was rude. I don’t think she was clueless either. Its not “wrong” of me to “expect” sex when sex is proposed – maybe that’s the key point you are missing. A third date involving dinner and a movie on the couch in someone’s apartment is a sex date (especially if suggested by the woman.) If you didnt know that before, now you know.
Your period is typically not an accident so you can plan around it. If you know you have your period, don’t plan a sex date. And your reward will be that I won’t call you rude which, apparently, seems to matter to you.
Anyway, I am a professional and can work around a woman’s period, as I did that night. Turns out, it was a “sex” date. Doesn’t mean she wasn’t rude.
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Although you shouldn’t go expressing your insecurity to him, you can pull back on the sex and let him know that you just think it’s too early for a steady sexual relationship. Just make sure that he understands that it’s not him, but that it’s your realization that you acted a little lustily and outside of your typical character.
As long as you don’t come across as playing a game, he will understand and have respect for your personal dignity if he’s worth anything. If he really sincerely wants you, this should not be a deterrent, but even cause him to have greater love and respect for you.
Also I would ignore the advice of well-ridden women who think you didn’t act too quickly and should just enjoy the sex. A man can often perceive a women who is hardened by being well-ridden and it’s not attractive.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Absolutely, under no circumstances should she do this. He will definitely dump her. No matter how genuine the intention behind it, the guy will perceive it as either a game or drama and he will bail.
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Eh, maybe. It’s high risk for sure. I had a girl kinda sorta do this to me. She didn’t withhold per se, but she demanded exclusivity pretty quickly because she couldn’t deal with the thought that I was seeing others. I liked her a lot and so agreed to it. Of course, she ended up dumping me two weeks later, but I’m not bitter about it. It just didn’t work out.
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Worst idea ever. Closing the bar doors after the horse is already out makes you look nuts/manipulative.
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you can pull back on the sex
You can’t un-ring a bell. Any attempt to pull back or change the rules after sex will be seen as manipulative and/or crazy, and any sane guy will dump her immediately. No, ladies, that doesn’t mean he was only after sex; it means he doesn’t want to get into a relationship with a manipulative and/or crazy woman who clearly has emotional issues regarding sex. What guy would want that–no matter how interested he may have been before she pulled that shit?
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Also, why do we gotta make ourselves so vulnerable? The position of wondering if you are just sex or potential girlfriend, is putting so much power on his side, and nothing on your own. Being a girlfriend in this era is not a relationship. It’s “playing marriage”, without the commitment, and any strings attached. You don’t owe sex during that courtship phase. So even if you were a girlfriend, you don’t have to offer yourself up. The fact is, we have to get married. Let’s send that message, instead of we don’t have to get married, we can all just use each other and throw each other away without guilt. Like…yeah you initially chose a guy, making yourself not vulnerable but in a power position, but there is so much to learn about a person, over a course of a year or more, and beyond, that it seems pretty dumb to treat yourself like a baby seal where once he’s made you vulnerable and trusting you on some innocent baby seal level of consciousness, that now he can comfortably knock you out, take your fluffy soft part (the sex) and discard your carcass for the maggots without too much notice. Why won’t he take the whole you? If you feel like you have to give the surface upfront, or even before any REAL commitment (which is marriage, not being a girlfriend) you are an ignorant older seal, who is begging to have her soul killed so that he can take your soft fluffy part, your sex. and then who cares? Don’t let this happen! You are now going to be wise, and let the man become a full-time friend, and become a part of your daily walk of life if he wants you badly, and someday, you can cuddle up together and enjoy sex when the insides are both right. When you are both in love, and accepting each other fully, and FULLY committed, legally and emotionally, rather than on the surface and instantly. Why make yourself vulnerable for the devouring? Yes men keep on creating a world where you gotta cater to the male sex, as if it’s his world, or something stupid, and you are supposed to head to that. but you aren’t. This world isn’t here for the devouring. It’s here to be protected, taken care of, and loved. that’s his role. and he should live up to making you feel secure and loved., Once you feel secure and loved, and not vulnerable and questioning, that would probably be a good time to start thinking sex is ok. Probably marriage is the most security a guy can exclaim to you. Even if it doesn’t last, the very act of proposing to you says firmly that he’s in it for the long haul as much as he can see right now. period.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Honestly, posts like this just make me weep for my gender. Women need to stop looking at sex as a commodity they are willing to trade for the promise of commitment. I wish to god women could start looking at sex like men do and just enjoy it for what it is.
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Ha, yeah, I’m pretty sure that in real life men may object to being used solely as an instrument of your happiness.
Women can never truly enjoy sex “like a man” because they are built differently. Sex is almost always to be traded for something else. The key is not be sad about this state of nature but to understand it and use it to your best advantage.
Sex can and will be traded for many things – attention, money, affection. Sex however cannot realistically be traded for true “commitment.” The men you desire, by definition, are desirable and have many sexual options and opportunities which they can get without commitment. If you want true commitment from a man, you have to offer something he can’t easily obtain elsewhere. What that is, I don’t yet know. Depends on the man. But, I can see its a source of frustration.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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You don’t owe sex during that courtship phase. So even if you were a girlfriend, you don’t have to offer yourself up. The fact is, we have to get married….Once you feel secure and loved, and not vulnerable and questioning, that would probably be a good time to start thinking sex is ok.
I’m thinking that someone’s going to be very lonely for a very long time…
Hot debate. What do you think?
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While Deborah’s comment sounds a bit weird (for lack of a better word), I get the point.
Terri C says:
“I wish to god women could start looking at sex like men do and just enjoy it for what it is.”
Really now?
That’s like saying “I wish men would start getting emotionally attached to women after sex”.
Why change the way we are naturally wired to fulfill some BS desire to be the same as the other gender?
Women can’t look at sex the way men do because no matter how you dice it, more is better for men. You’ll see women going for quality, while men will shamelessly go for quantity.
Again, the key to the game is for women to focus on what they are trying to get. You trying to get laid? Be my guest. Trying to get in a relationship? Get realistic.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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“baby seal”? “soft fluffy part? That’s just strange. Plus Deborah’s belief that “This world isn’t here for the devouring. It’s here to be protected, taken care of, and loved. that’s his role. and he should live up to making you feel secure and loved” is at best 19th century and reduces the woman to a child-like object.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Wow, so when you enjoy some aspect of someone prior to marriage, it is “discarding” the rest, because the other person “won’t take the whole you”? (Think for a second — there’s no reason this would just apply to sex, or just be done by men to women).
This is a shockingly cynical, defensive perspective, which is just the sort of problem generating the chronic “premature expectations” that haunt the modern dating scene…
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OP–you might be underestimating your own desirability here. If you think this guy has plenty of options, he might think you as well have plenty. Don’t discount that. It’s normal to get apprehensive when you find something great, and thus analyze the hell out of it.
And it’s easy to believe that by properly analyzing every move and reaction someone makes that you can discern what he’s thinking and feeling, and then predict what he’ll do next. Not. Possible. You can’t assume that he’s seeing other people just because he’s attractive, no more than you can hope he’s not. You don’t know. It’s also not worth knowing at this point because it won’t change how you feel about him.
As a man, I can say that just because you slept with him on date #3 doesn’t mean he’ll reduce his perception of you. That’s nutty. In my own experience, I’ve had relationships develop from first-date sex and fifth-date (or whatever) sex. Don’t assign too much meaning to that. Sex isn’t a tool or weapon, despite the volume of people who use it as such.
More important would be the sort of conversation you’re having. What’s the emotional connection like?
The really basic advice doled out here already is spot-on. Just keep seeing him.
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Op,
It might sound archaic for some people, but I truly think you should have abstain from sex with that guy, at least until you were able to answer your questions more clearly. Delaying (and not withholding) sex is not a strategy to manage men but to manage one self as well.
I was reading an article from “Hooking Up Smart” recently and I believe the following quote is right there where you are at the moment:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/11/30/relationshipstrategies/20-years-later-men-and-women-are-still-from-different-planets/
Women can’t have sex like men and men can’t have sex like women. Let’s all be ok with that, no need to deny your differences. I gather you got swept with all those chain dates that gave the illusion that you guys actually knew each other and now you’re confused. Unfortunately, you’re going to have to put it on autopilot and see where it goes. In any case this doesn’t work, you’ll know to figure out your emotional and relationship expectations before giving up something you hold important.
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Here are my thoughts Nicole for what its worth:
The most likely scenario is that he wasn’t overwhelmingly interested in you from the beginning. This is what dating “out of your league” looks like.
There are guys that “shotgun” date – making a ton of effort and showing tons of enthusiasm up front. That’s just the guy’s “way.” It doesn’t mean he liked you more or that you were special in some way to him. In fact, this manner of dating is a sign of lack of impulse control, again. Women are culturally trained to accept fairly erratic behavior from men because of sterotypes of men acting crazy in love. It is not so much “great chemistry” as it is the guy is too fast, making a fast pitch and the women going along with it because she thinks its a reflection of his attitude toward her. I’m not talking about sex either – all guys want sex right away. But a sane, sensible man with options will not want to, or be able to, see you 4 times in a week right away. Red. Flag. Don’t ignore them.
So, here’s the fortune cookie: Crazy people act crazy. Sensible people act sensibly. Love takes time. There IS such a thing as being too interested too quickly and being too available.
While its possible the guy “lost interest” I view that as the least likely explanation. You can take solace in the fact that there is nothing you could have done other than make better choices about who you date in the first place. Look for evidence of stability and sanity, and don’t indulge the shotgun dater’s “fantasy.” Ever.
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Not trying to be rude, but do you know me? How do you conclude “here’s what dating ‘out of your league’ looks like? Did I post pictures of myself in my sleep or is it b.c I’m in my 30s?
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His summation of the “come on really strong, then cool off/send mixed messages” type of dude is dead-on accurate, in my experience. Accelerated/false sense of intimacy is always a red flag.
As far as “leagues,” we don’t know what you look like, so that part of the comment is a leap. However, given how insecure you were about “keeping” him and describing him as a “unicorn” – really not much of a leap.
(Dammit, got sucked into commenting again).
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OK, he probably was out of my league (looks-wise, anyway). Once he opened his mouth, he was a lot less attractive. But ever so socially awkward. And he had no game. But since I’m letting this all out on a blog, might as well go for it whole-hog. Yup, was out of my league, and the outcome was exactly the same as all the other times I’ve tried to date above my station.
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People can be pretty harsh here, but I really think what most people are getting at is “it’s not you, it’s him.” If you made a mistake, it was in missing cues in his behavior and responding accordingly (like the “no sex? Well, here’s your coat, nice knowin’ ya” incident). Which happens when you’re rusty and out of practice dating. You certainly don’t sound like you drove him off with weird or clingy behavior. You sounded insecure in your initial letter, but from what you say, you played it cool in your actions. You sound exhausted from analyzing your behavior; that’s because your behavior is not the issue, but rather his. Learn to recognize suspect behavior so you can nip it in the bud quicker next time, before you get any hopes up.
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OK, so lots of twists and turns and last-minute confessions en route to the truth in this case. “It’s not you, it’s him” was clearly an overly coddling thing to say. The empty “you go, grrl” shit people rant about here (I dunno, she was so upset, I felt the instinct to comfort).
I do still stand by my point that she didn’t seem to be questioning/accurately observing his behavior *at all*. It seemed like once she locked onto the “unicorn” idea, all critical thinking skills flew out the window. That’s something to do differently for better results next time, as well as learning to relax and accept things beyond her control.
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First of all, Nicole I could be wrong. Second of all, I don’t need to know you personally because I recognize the situation that you describe. If it sounds like a duck and smells like a duck, I can go on the Internet and say “its a duck” without actually seeing that it is a duck. Deductive reasoning. Or maybe its inductive, I forget. Either way, you’re welcome.
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At this point, I’d say that what Nicole did “wrong” was exactly what she describes in her last paragraph: she didn’t initiate stuff. In fact, at a few points, she shut things down or sent out unreceptive signals. A “good but not great” first date — which probably came through in attitude/body language. Closing off communication on the texting in #6. Not sleeping with the guy on Sunday.
If this guy is the kind of guy who tries to manufacture intimacy by coming on as strongly as he did, chances are if she isn’t reciprocating at the same level or more, he’s gradually getting frustrated/discouraged while his fantasy is crumbling. Nicole’s failure to initiate contact, suggest dates, ask to see him frequently, and probably how she behaved on the date, all gradually killed his fantasy, his self-created “Love Actually” scenario.
So, basically, this guy came on super strong, not because he was into Nicole per se, but because he wanted that experience, and Nicole didn’t play into it. If she’s accurately described things, then it sounds like she didn’t scare him off by being clingy. If anything, she scared him off by NOT being clingy.
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I know I’m biased, not to mention I’m humiliated at the moment, but I am the one closest to the experience and I tend to appreciate D’s comments above. Re. text on Friday when I said “I’m going to a happy hour. Hope your meeting went well,” He came back with “Meeting didn’t go well. Where’s happy hour?” To which I said “Sorry to hear that. Happy hour is at [x].” Don’t know whether I thought I’d invite hiim or not, but I didn’t.
I generally try not to chase men, because I got burned hard doing that this summer – that’s why I’m just having trouble believing the clingy/needy thing. If anything, I maybe try too hard to overcompensate for that by being slightly standoffish (but still polite). I figure if a guy is interested, he’s interested and will let me know. And at the beginning, this guy did. But not for long.
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I dunno. The only reason I can see to feel at all chagrined is that, on a certain level, you got sucked into his fantasy. If you’re not that experienced at dating, it’s easy to see where that’d happen. Even experienced people fall into this kind of thing now and then, particularly if they want to believe it’s real and meaningful.
But the thing to bear in mind is what kind of connection there actually is and what it’s based on. This kind of super-intense arrangement has been discussed on here before (although I can’t remember the entry titles right now), and the general consensus is that while “chemistry” can exist in some sense, these kinds of pressure-cooker “relationships” are usually based on…not much. It’s either someone chasing a particular feeling, or trying to dazzle the other person so they won’t notice some other issue, but it’s rarely sustainable and rarely results in anything real developing.
Based on what you’ve described, it sounds to me like this guy was more trying to manufacture a feeling/experience. The common thread I’ve noticed in what you described is that he seemed to want to “skip to the end.” Like, to create a shortcut to intimacy by going out on dates with only a day in between. I tend to think that stems from insecurity and not being willing to let things take their course because doing so involves a lot of anxiety (OMG! What if it doesn’t work?! What if I get HURT?!).
Outwardly, you didn’t appear to play into that (even if you were starting to buy into it inwardly by the end). So, he may have felt like he was playing to an unappreciative audience. That’d only heighten his anxiety and while, at first, that might lead him to up the ante with his dates and intensity, that burns itself out pretty quickly.
Plus, if he’s manufacturing intimacy like it sounds, then your taking it at a normal pace, and even doing things like politely declining sex because it’s that time of the month, any of that may be taken as a personal rejection of him. And that’s because these kinds of super-intense situations are very often more just about the person wanting to feel something — and in that sense, are very self-absorbed affairs. Your behavior is all viewed through his own filter where it’s all about how your behavior relates to him, rather than you being some independent person with your own attitudes and such. So, turning down sex is OBVIOUSLY you rejecting him, because what else would it be? Certainly not you liking him but not wanting to have sex right that second. No, no. This is all speculation, but for all you know he might’ve viewed that “Sorry, that time of the month” response as you bullshitting him about your lack of interest.
I think the reason why people are assuming you got clingy, or that you were really into him is because of how your initial questions were phrased. It sounded like you got sucked into this fantasy world he’d created, and within that context, yeah, I can see where you’d be wondering if the guy is wanting to get serious.
The other folks who’ve posted about this are right, though: this kind of behavior is a red flag. Particularly if you AREN’T reciprocating to the same degree. It’s one thing if you’re both dancing in the daisies and getting all caught up in the romance of the moment. It’s quite another if only ONE of you is. If it’s that lopsided, that should be a sign that this person isn’t into YOU. They’re into their fantasy. Of you, of the relationship, whatever. But they aren’t dealing with the here-and-now. So, lesson learned, next time you know better.
The only other thing I’d say is not to be afraid to show interest in a guy, but my hope is that that wouldn’t be an issue if the guy’s behavior is genuine and taking a natural progression. In this case, maybe you were holding back, but maybe you were also wary because it didn’t seem real. If that’s so, that’s the right instinct HERE. Just don’t over-extrapolate to where you’re turning down genuine guys out of fear of being hurt. Don’t be afraid to risk getting hurt when the reward is worth it. DO be able to recognize bullshit when you see it.
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One more piece of advice for you to chew on at your leisure and/or become inexplicably defensive about:
I agree that you should not chase men and you should be unavailable enough so that a guy must make some effort to get to date you. However, there can be a point at which the barriers seem so insurmountable that ONLY reckless men with poor judgment and impulse control issues will even bother trying. “Normal” guys will make an effort but will not “move mountains.”
This concept gets abstract but the point is just that you want to calibrate your “unavailability” so that you’re not chasing men but also not so unavailable and aloof that “normal” guys will give up or not bother trying. Good luck.
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I’m not a believer in the whole “men like the chase” thing. There are a lot of women who liked to be chased, though, and project that on men, so I tolerate it, but only as long as I get the sense the woman wants to be caught. Many women play their cards too close to the vest or drag it out too long–and are mystified when all the good men eventually give up and move on to women who clearly reciprocate their interest.
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It’s easy to tell if a guy likes you. Before you leave him to go home, he’ll know when he can see you again. There won’t be any uncomfortable waits. He’ll make sure he can see you as soon as possible.
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I agree with Claire. When 2 people like each other, it’s almost always that easy.
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Actually. Remember what happened this morning with that guy? Oh, that was like a whole five hours ago. Remember how eeeasssyyy it was to set up that second date with him and how he was sooo anxious to see you as soon as possible? Claire’s comment? Is exactly your problem.
I’m sorry, I just can’t.
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Dude, no fucking kidding. I *KNOW* the guy wasn’t into me. I didn’t say it happened HERE, or to ME. I’m saying it happens when 2 people like each other.
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I don’t think I’ll ever be comfortable getting to know/date a guy who’s *already* putting his penis in other women… Or worse yet, goes on a date or two with me and then finds someone else to fuck. Seriously, how is that supposed to attract me? It just means I’m not important to him, nor are the women he’s fucking. I’m not looking for *that* kind of guy any more. I don’t have the time I used to have to fuck around anymore.
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