Name: Heather
Age: 34
State: California
Question: This is more of a “request” for discussion than a dating question, as you already posted a dating question for me this week, so I feel a bit rude posting in here twice.I like what you said to me on Twitter: “If he’s the type to think you’re easy, he’s still going to end up being a douche.”
Notice the progression of events here:
1) Guy X thinks you’re easy (WHORE), therefore..
2) Guy X treats you like crap.This makes me want to reverse the whole thing (can you tell by now that I’m a PhD student studying rhetoric?)
1) Guy X thinks that you only sleep with Special Boyfriends (VIRGIN), therefore…
2) Guy X treats you like a Goddess.Notice that in both scenarios, Guy X has the option to judge the woman and change his behavior based on that judgment. The woman, of course, has no power whatsoever.
I’m sure that’s not what you intended, but it does raise a fascinating issue for what I’m dealing with right now in the dating world:
I have a high sex drive. Very, very high. I enact it not only by being “easy” but also by being very giving, enthusiastic, and active in the bedroom. I tend to be pretty horny most of the time.
Sometimes I like to try to “land” a boyfriend who (hopefully) also has a high sex drive, but more often than not I like to sleep around. As you know, OKC and POF make this stupidly easy for most women to accomplish. So I’ve had eight different casual sex partners since March. Always with no expectation of romance or a relationship, but occasionally the guys insist. Seriously I think some men need dinner and a movie to get in the mood
Anywhoo, I’m now to a point where I’m “sated” and ready to settle down with a boyfriend. I have a viable candidate in mind, and I’ve already told him that I haven’t had sex since February… because that was the last time I was in a committed long term relationship.
The thing of it is, I don’t like that I have to lie about this. I hate the Virgin/Whore dichotomy, and I hate that I’m buying into it by lying to this guy. But you said it yourself – a woman can’t be considered “easy” by a man.
I’ve never met a man who was willing to treat a woman with respect once he knew that she had been promiscuous in the past. And yet if a guy tells me that he had a bunch of casual sex a couple months ago, but now is looking for something committed, I would be happy to treat him with respect, and I would applaud his decision.
Is there any way out of this “judgment” trap that society set for us 4000 years ago? Or are we forced to play this game? I’m interested in your thoughts.
Thanks for your time,
Heather
Before my friend left to go home for the holidays, we cracked open a bottle of wine and had the “So, what has your OKC experience been like?” talk. We weren’t comparing numbers as much as we were comparing notes. He shared that, in the handful of months he’d been on that site, all of the women he went out with a second time had either had sex with him on the first date or on the second date. (I didn’t ask how many here were. That wasn’t the point of the exercise.) The ones who waited for the second date all did the “you’re not coming home with me tonight” thing that many women like to do. They wouldn’t sleep with him on the first date because first date sex, in their mind, was “bad.” They waited until the second date because, most likely, they rationalized that if a guy sticks around after one date with no sex then he must be truly interested.
What they don’t understand is that if a man is the type to consider a woman easy for enjoying her sexuality, one date isn’t going to matter. These guys want the woman to wait a long time so that they (the men) don’t have to fear that they are just one of many. That has nothing to do with gauging the woman’s virtue. That is all about massaging the man’s ego.
What women don’t understand is that men know what we’re thinking. They know we’re afraid of being considered “slutty.” Like anything else, they go along with our rationalizations and explanations knowing that we’ll eventually put out. These men understand that were merely trying to buy ourselves time so we don’t look “slutty.” As I pointed out to my friend, these women – the ones who justify or qualify when they decide to have sex – usually go on to be far more trouble than they’re worth. Rather than own their own decisions and manage expectations, they project all of their insecurity onto the guy until things eventually implode.
I think that in the beginning of a relationship, both people need to keep their sexual history to themselves. Personally, I don’t find a man’s sexually history threatening. If my guy told me he had had a series of one night stands before we met, I wouldn’t care. I don’t want to know what he does after that point, of course. But hearing what happened before doesn’t faze me. I think a lot of this really depends on how the information is being shared. There’s something unseemly about a man or woman who brags about all the sex they have. It casts a rather sad light on the person doing the bragging. What’s funny is that if this information is shared publicly, like say on Twitter or a blog, the results are polar opposite depending on the braggarts gender.
A man can blog about all the sex he has and women will still want to be with him and try to date him seriously. Why? Because they like the idea of taming the beast and one upping the women who came before them. A woman, however, could not get away with it. She reeks of insecurity and sadness and ends up being passed around by various brahs who can’t be bothered to actually ask her out. Instead, she might get the last minute or late invite for drinks. She is considered a final option should no others arise. This is where things differ. A man can share his number and the woman will pretend to be intimidated or shocked, but she’s actually pleased that she’s found a man with so much experience. A woman could share her number and the man could be turned off. All of this hinges upon the security level of each person, of course. This is why I don’t advocate that these conversations be had. Ever.Frankly, I find the idea of counting or keeping track of lovers to be juvenile.
The only way out of this judgment trap is either to say nothing and never have this talk, lie or to only date men who have matured beyond the Madonna/Whore ideology. (Those men do exist, by the way. ) There is no logical explanation for why we even need to know about their sexual history beyond their last few test results. Numbers are inconsequential. We really aren’t entitled to know any of that. Whatever happened before you got with one partner should stay in the past out of respect for your partner. A story here or there isn’t an issue. More than that and you’re delving into “baggage” territory.
Keeping track of numbers is definitely juvenile. It should be private and personal to every individual, not something to be discussed or up for judgement. Women need to stop playing by the rules of the trap. It’s the best way to stop it. Stop judging people for their sexuality and stop being afraid or intimidated by being called slutty. It will lose it’s power once it stops being an insult. Let slut shamers know that you right to have and love sex just as much as men do, but beyond that, your sex life is no one’s business but your own.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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You better hope the lie never comes out. I wouldn’t care about the truth, but I would be looking for the exit immediately upon learning I’d been lied to in that fashion. Even if I was in deep enough that I didn’t bolt on the spot I would lose all trust and respect for you. It’s not even just the “lying is bad” it’s that this is a deliberate lie meant to manipulate the man into getting what you want. There is no comming back from that.
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Unless you are dating religious types nobody cares.
Slut shaming is something other women do, not men.
Moving on however, there is a reason I’m not especially keen on women who say things like this.
The problem is telling the difference between the two types of women here:
1. Has a high sex drive.
2. Says she has a high sex drive. Actually has a high drama/conflict/attention drive driven by crushing insecurity and the desire to prove a point that can never be adequately proven to them by any number of other people.
The former might be fun to be with, the latter is a bloody hand grenade without a pin.
I don’t have an answer to you beyond that but can you honestly blame us? You don’t have this problem because guys don’t act out by diving into bed with people.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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speedy makes a really good point. There are people who have many partners because they really dig sex and own their sexuality. But there are also others who have sex to prove they can get someone to sleep with them and validate their attractiveness. i doubt many people would complain about a person from group one. But people in group are too insecure to enjoy themselves.
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There’s a big difference between being “promiscuous” and being “slutty.” And it all has to do with behavior and attitude.
Moxie is absolutely right on one thing: keep your sexual history to yourself. This goes for both men and women.
Anyone behaving in an overly sexual manner or sharing past sexual exploits, especially very early in a relationship, is likely acting slutty and will likely be treated accordingly. People aren’t going to stop making judgments about sexual history, but they can only do so if one shares that information or behaves in a way that reveals that information.
Heather shouldn’t have to lie about her sexual past–she seems comfortable with it though I don’t know if she’s thought about the potential long-term consequences–in fact, she shouldn’t be sharing it at all.
Heather also writes:
Notice that in both scenarios, Guy X has the option to judge the woman and change his behavior based on that judgment. The woman, of course, has no power whatsoever.
As a student of rhetoric, she needs to acknowledge that the assumptions are not entirely correct and present a false comparison. Women indeed have power to control their own sexuality and behavior. The only truth here is that women have no power to control a man’s judgment. Nor should she.
The bottom line is that most guys don’t really care about a woman’s number, unless it’s unusually high. We know that these days, just like men, women will all come with a past. What we care about is how a woman treats us now. But the one thing that will drive a guy over the edge is if he knows, or suspects that a woman who enthusiastically banged men she didn’t care about is making a guy who she might care about wait.
Heather might not like this judgmental double standard, but no one said life is fair.
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Yep, I think we got to most of the essential thoughts here early. But there’s some very good reasons why many guys might consider ‘Heather’ something just short of a ‘human hand-grenade’. Let’s count the ways.
1.) The OP says: “Sometimes I like to try to “land” a boyfriend who (hopefully) also has a high sex drive, but more often than not I like to sleep around. As you know, OKC and POF make this stupidly easy for most women to accomplish. So I’ve had eight different casual sex partners since March. Always with no expectation of romance or a relationship, but occasionally the guys insist. Seriously I think some men need dinner and a movie to get in the mood”.
So at 34, with the proverbial ’2 min’ warning gun sounding, she’s looking for a more ‘permanent LTR’ PERHAPS, but is not spelling this out. Previously she’s been quite happy with a series of monthly BF’s who do just fine & service her physical needs adequately. No mention is made of emotional bonding or psychological compatibility, or indeed any OTHER sort of compatibility Besides a matching/’High sex drive’. Ergo, if you go looking in certain places, you’re more likely to find certain kinds of people.
2.) Further the OP states : “Anywhoo, I’m now to a point where I’m “sated” and ready to settle down with a boyfriend. I have a viable candidate in mind, and I’ve already told him that I haven’t had sex since February… because that was the last time I was in a committed long term relationship.”
So once again the easy lie to fulfill One set of expectations (Madonna/Whore dichotomy), but which is Simultaneously actually likely sabotaging your intention of actually landing that ‘highly sexed’ guy too! Is it likely that any ‘normal’ active 34 YO would NOT be having sex for the better part of a year Outside of a convent say? No, that’s not a completely rational expectation. No matter how many different kinds of vibrators you regularly wear out, no dude with a ‘high sex drive’ is likely to buy such an incredible story. Hell most folks won’t buy it either.
3.) This gets to the bottom line of the ‘transaction’ here and the central mythos the OP is trying to present, despite coming off like the proverbial mythical ‘mermaid’ to various BF ‘prospects’. As Lost Sailor said above:
“The bottom line is that most guys don’t really care about a woman’s number, unless it’s unusually high. We know that these days, just like men, women will all come with a past. What we care about is how a woman treats us now. But the one thing that will drive a guy over the edge is if he knows, or suspects that a woman who enthusiastically banged men she didn’t care about is making a guy who she might care about wait”.
The central problem for guys of this ‘age’ and older is the quite rational fear that those who are now playing for a serious LTR will be getting LESS physical affection & ‘action’ than all those yes, ‘zipless fu*ks’ you’ve done in the past year just to ‘keep your motor running’. Many might completely sympathize with your plight, (both men & women), but by trying to play both standards at the same time, and then persistently & blithely lying about it all, you’re actually not only working against your own interests here, but just confusing and even angering all the dudes who might be willing to seriously date you! Which is why ‘the Rules’ are foolish, counter productive, and certainly not very useful for the modern dating scene.
Bottom line ‘Ms. Rhetoric’? You need more Reality. To find & attract a ‘highly sexed’ guy? Don’t tell him you’ve been celibate for the better part of a year! He won’t believe you, and I really don’t know anyone else who might either. That’s the central conundrum here. Fealty to a Medieval concept of chastity is just another logical flaw and gross misapprehension of reality. And 4000 years ago, you’d not have to worry all that much about all this, by your age you’d mostly be considered chattel or far worse. That’s just history.
So Bottom Line? No games, less judgement and more of the light of reality shining on your own true needs and desires. If you want something? Admit it, call it by it’s name and seek it out. Don’t deny it’s nature and claim otherwise! You want it? Ask & seek it. And a PHd student? Really? I know, it takes all kinds. Cheers, ‘VJ’
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Honestly, I generally agree with moxie,but I think the reason behind the double standards is a little different. Men brag about how many women they get because it takes ALOT more work to get sex, whereas casual sex for women is ridiculously easy to find it given the social constructs we have. For example, I was out at a club with some female friends and every one of them had been propositioned a few times, whereas most guys have to do a ton of approaches and deal with a ton of rejections to get lucky every once in a while. True some guys will have better odds, but the ease of access is not comparable by any means. Keep in mind, I don’t mean this as a rant or complaint (especially since women may not always like the guys who do approach them), but I do think that the dynamic makes a big difference as to why it’s treated differently. Even if someone has no issues with sex, It doesn’t make much since for women to brag about getting alot of sex because it’s so easy to get.
The other thing is that I do think that some guys simply feel threatened. If a guy is insecure about his own attractiveness, he may be intimidated by a girl whose numbers overwhelm his or he may make false assumptions about what it means for loyalty. BUt as Moxie says it’s more likely to be his issue based on his insecurities. I would have been at some point been more worried but not that I’ve had alot of partners I see it differently. I realized that you can be more loyal after having more partners since it’s a bigger deal to settle down. That said, I mainly will care that she is able to be loyal and that she is disease free.
I’d also like to add that its important to also look at the bigger pictures as well. While it’s convenient to ascribe a guy’s staying or going to how long a woman makes him wait, the truth is that sometimes the answer lies elsewhere. For example, a woman who is the dead fish in the sack because she feels guilty about sex might end up with alot of guys not wanting to repeat the experience and then ironically attribute it to her having sex. Or a girl just might not be that attractive enough for the guy to consider dating. Or she might be super bitter/needy (so the guy might be willing to sleep with her but wants nothing more).
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quick typo fix: I would have been worried [about her having alot of partners] at one point, but, now that I’ve had alot of partners, I see it differently.
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A slutty girl bangs a guy then bangs all his friends, co-workers, teammates, etc. A slutty girl is the one texting another guy as your walking out her door after having sex with her. Basically, a slutty girl doesn’t have any class.
Being a slut isn’t really about hitting some magic number, or about what goes on between the sheets. It’s about a woman’s attitude and actions regarding sex and the way she chooses to pursue it.
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I’m wondering how the subject of partners and sexual history came up. Did he ask or did she pre-emptively play the “good girl” card and say “nothing since February” ‘cuz she thought it would increase her chances? I agree with Moxie that these things are better off not discussed, beyond an offhand story here & there.
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I’m fully in the “keep your sexual history to yourself” camp as others have stated above. The only wild card that you may have to deal with OP is whether or not your sexual past will meet your dating present. It’s one thing for a guy to meet one or two guys, but if your name is constantly coming up in a certain capacity, I’ve never seen a guy who was truly okay with it. Not to say that these men don’t exist, but If the different men are steady, consistent, and still in the area – make sure that the appropriate boundaries have been set with the former casual guys so that they aren’t an unwelcome intrusion into your dating present. I wish you well.
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Heather is simply rationalizing her own slutty tendencies. If she really wanted a boyfriend, she wouldn’t have slept with 8 random men that she met on the Internet this year. The fact that she intends to lie to the next man about her sexual history shows that she is most likely crazy and she is a liar. She isn’t worthy of the respect she claims to want if she is so willing to lie to men about her history. She is actually showing how little respect she has for men because she does not think it is a big deal to tell such blatant lies about things she knows men care about.
How often do men really ask women about the last time they had sex? I have never asked a woman this question, although I have had women ask this of me right around the time that they pushed for sex with me. It almost seems to me as though a woman is promiscuous if she even asks a man this question.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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“Heather is simply rationalizing her own slutty tendencies. If she really wanted a boyfriend, she wouldn’t have slept with 8 random men that she met on the Internet this year.”
Or it can just mean she likes sex. Just because you have a goal of an LTR doesn’t mean you can’t have fun along the way. Not everyone chooses serial monogomy as the path to the one. Some would rather enjoy their options until they find someone that they want to be exclusive with. That way they don’t deal with alot of breakups and don’t constantly cut off their options needlessly
That said, she doesn’t seem secure about how many guys she has slept with, but I honestly think it’s BECAUSE guys tend to judge exactly that.
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