Most people don’t like my answer and it is bitter reality pill to swallow. Go look at Men’s magazines and tell me they prefer women
is big women.
Things I was referring to my friends doing wrong; sleeping with men on first date, getting drunk on first date or initial meeting, saying they have a bf (to the guy!) but still making out/dating other men, being insecure, not having good fashion sense, unambitious. But the point is, the MEN continue to talk to them and hold most of the conversation. Why? Because they are interested in them and these flaws/faults mean nothing because sexual attraction trumps everything for a man. I have been the fat friend in more situations than I can count. Guys have come up to me, talked to me for 15 mins only to then ask me to introduce them to friend. And before you say “WELL JENN YOU MUST BE UGLY HAVE A BAD PERSONALITY” blah blah blah. I have a lot of features people spend money at the plastic surgeons office to acquire. But I am a size 14/16, have read many books on flirting, great fitting clothes, very feminine, and you know what? None of that matters to men. I don’t make the cut. At least I realize the truth and doing something about it instead of complaining or blaming men, lost 80 lbs and still losing. I will know when I lost enough because men will talk to me and not my friends for once.
-GI JANEThe reason why men continue to talk to them and date them is because men don’t care about those things PERIOD. Guys like girls who “get drunk” on dates because it shows she doesn’t have a stick up her ass. Guys like women who have sex on the first date because guys like sex. Fashion sense? No straight guy gives a shit. Unambitious? GUYS DON’T CARE unless the woman is leeching off of him. The reason why none of those things don’t work for you isn’t because you’re overweight. It’s because you probably come off unpleasant and difficult. And yes, you are jealous of these women because they can get away with these things and you can’t. My guess is these women just don’t measure up to your distorted standards. Really? Judging their fashion sense? Yeah, you’re not a catty bitch. PS? guys HATE that. Women like you like to use your weight as an excuse for why you can’t find a man. That way you can blame it on the shallowness of men and not take any responsibility for being unpleasant or uptight.- MOXIE
Wrong.I am not catty at all actually, have been the nice girl for way too long sitting on the sidelines watching others live and smiling waiting for “someone to talk to me” . But now I just accept the truth. And men like women who sleep on the first date? Really? As in relationship material? Your delusional. I haven’t tried these methods that my friends do because I am not that kind of girl, but I have TRIED and failed. Also most girls who get approached don’t need to try, they just stand there and men strike up the conversation. I volunteer, take care of a physically challenged aunt, work in a social service career. Degrees, none of that matters. I don’t care how you slice up my argument, looks will get you in the door and keep you there until you royally f*up. My issue is not jealousy it is that I don’t get a chance in the FIRST place. I am constantly overlooked. Men don’t really try hard with me, they ask for sex pretty early on, which contradicts your point that I must be stuck up, because that is not how men act around Paris Hilton types.- GI JANE
GI Jane speaks a truth that is too hard for some women to bear. The kindest, sweetest, most positive and sensual woman in the world will be overlooked if she is visually unappealing to men. Suggesting that her personality is unpleasant or uptight shows a fundamental lack of understanding about men and dating, and does GI Jane more harm than good.- Yolanda
I don’t disagree that looks matter. But if you’re reasonably or even marginally attractive, and you’re not completely insufferable, you can find a man. Maybe not the Don Draper/Rico Suave types many women pine for since they have women throwing themselves at them left and right. But you can find someone. I simply do not buy that a woman is automatically discounted if she isn’t “hot.” Sorry, but personality and demeanor absolutely factor into attraction. If you’re not terribly warm, inviting or interesting, then most men aren’t going to stick around to get to know you. Unless you’re completely unfortunate looking, if you’re nice and engaging and fun to be around and objectively attractive, you can find someone. You might not get the men that the “hotties” get, but boo hoo. 80% of us don’t get those men. If you’re whining about not getting those guys, then the problem is that you are attracted to shallow assholes or men way out of your league and ignore the men that you can more easily attract because you want The Big Fish. Trust me. Get over your need to reel that guy in and you’ll be a lot happier.
As for all the things Jane says her hot friends did “wrong” on their dates, I call jelly. Men don’t judge a woman for getting drunk on dates unless she starts throwing punches. They couldn’t give a rat’s ass about their fashion sense either. Nor do they care if the woman isn’t ambitious. In fact, that actually works for women unless the woman is looking for a meal ticket. Insecurity is fine until it spills over into neurotic self-absorption territory. And yes, secure and confident men don’t care if she sleeps with them on the first date because liking sex is a good thing. These women didn’t get away with these things because they were hot unless the only thing these men cared about were looks. Women can get away with that behavior because the men actually enjoyed spending time with them. They weren’t caught up in one upping the guy or trying to impress him with their pseudo-intellect. They weren’t trying to act like men. Try it sometime. It’s fun.
Just by saying she’s “not that kind of girl” a woman tips her hand as to how judgmental and uptight she is. That’s a dead give away. I’ve worked literally hundreds of singles event in my career and I know your type. You show up and stand at the bar or pull yourself off to the side and expect men to approach you. You stand there with your chip on your shoulder and look around and cast aspersions on everybody else. Then you can’t fathom why nobody talks to you. Here’s why: because people can smell your insecurity and resentment at fifty yards. Nobody wants to approach someone who gives off a vibe like that.
Instead of bitching about all your female friends, why don’t you spend more time being enjoyable? I’m telling you right now that I have seen women bigger than you work a room and seduce men. So stop blaming your size or your looks or men and start trying to improve your attitude.
GI Jane-I think you need to go find men without your friends. I doubt many guys have the ability to hit on all the girls in the group and see who sticks so we will concentrate on one or two. When you are out with prettier girls, that one or two isn’t usually you. Also if you go to places where conversation is hard and is filled with hot women, your personality isn’t really going to go far. Those places tend to have men who are looking for hotness.
Try a quieter place, such as charity work or a library. Also be yourself. A guy who is interested in a long relationship is looking for the real you-the one who will act the same a year later.
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Indeed. Forgive the analogy, but men looking to date look at a group of women much as they would a pack of dogs- intimidating. While we might approach one individually, a whole gaggle is going to make them go the other way.
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Intimidating is the wrong word. Women have this group dynamic thing, see….
It’s not that the roulette wheel is intimidating, I just don’t want to waste money on a fixed game
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OP here, Would like to address some of the assumptions made by commenters responding.
1, Context of this post
The context is that I was replying to a question answered by another user (Yolanda). Then someone asked me to specify what “these situations” were, that is when I listed things like sleeping around, getting drunk etc. I did not just come out the gate swinging at my friends.
2. Your jealous/insecure/desperate/man obsessed
If anything seeing how men treat them showed me to the degree indifferent men have been treating me my whole life. I now know how men act towards a woman they value. And that value comes from her looks/sex appeal.
3. Your a prune
I am in my 20′s but was raised by my grandparents so I have morals. Somehow the commenters on this site found a way to see that as another negative. Men today are the most superficial ever and weight phobia is real and socially accepted.
4. Being significantly larger than your friends = self sabotage, more sign of insecure
I do not pick friends based on their physical appearance, this is just something I noticed later years of college when we went out more.
5. Are you trying to get the Jonny Depp type of Average Joe
Excuse me for being on an advice dating site, why are you here? We are all here to find the best man/woman we can.
6. I know someone your size who is in a happy relationship so it’s just your personality
Okay, are they 20/30 something? Is the guy black/hispanic (which are accepting of larger sizes), is he a regular joe or 7? Small or city? There are too many variables for me not to think this is the exception and not the rule.
Lastly, i feel most responders have used the halo effect to make every negative point I said about them positive, and vise versa for me. No one is 100 percent of anything. But some of these girls have had alcoholic problems, eating disorders and the men didn’t care about those things either,
I’m not complaining about striking out, I’m not getting a chance to bat in the first place.
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And men like women who sleep on the first date? Really? As in relationship material?
Yes. One of my longest lasting relationships started this way. Heck, my current girlfriend initially lumped me into the ONS category (I wanted more from the get-go).
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Another option, GI, is to make new friends who are objectively worse off than you in whatever sense (finances, career, looks, etc.) will comfort you. Then you’ll be able to hide your insecurity and jealousy forever.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I can’t speak for “all men” but I can for myself.
First-Date Sex
Right on! I expect a lot of thumbs down for this but, for me, it’s sort of equity in going forward. I’m not paying for (or even splitting tabs with) a woman on date after date with no physical escalation. If there’s none by date three or so, I usually move on. Sometimes, I think even 3 is too many.
Fashion:
I can’t tell if a woman’s fashion came from Wal-Mart or Gucci. As long as she’s not frumpy and knows how to look appealing, it’s all good.
Personality/Looks:
Naturally, the more attractive the better but I don’t automatically seek the hottest girl in the room or online. “Cute” is good enough, basically. A pleasant, soft, engaging personality can make a “cute” girl super-cute or even fine. It’s true that a hot woman can get away with being stupid, cruel or crazy (yes, I’ve dated a couple) but it’s hard to imagine what comes of them long term since boyfriend turnover seems high. Although maybe a certain percentage are able to bag a rich husband and capitalize that way.
Ambition:
More flames down for me, likely, but Moxie is bang-on with this one. I always pass over Match.com profiles where the woman has page-long list of professional accomplishments and travels. Also, I don’t respond to messages from those types of women (anymore). It’s now actually a sexual turn-off for me. As long as a woman can support herself financially, that’s enough.
Intelligence/Wit
I expect so many down-thumbs for this, my comment may be hidden. Anyway, “intelligence” and “wit” are good, if they are balanced by discretion, compromise and feminine humanity. I always pass over women or profiles with strong ideological statements (Tea Party, Marxist, Feminist, Environmentalist, Fundamentalist, whatever). I’m not looking for a debating partner. Wit is okay but it’s a turn-off when a woman is cutting down people and things all the time. Sarcasm, cynicism, sass, nihilism, relativism: it’s all too negative. Although some women try to pass this negativity off as “rapier wit,” it has no appeal to me. I know the world and people are deeply flawed, and I don’t’ need someone to remind me of it every 10 minutes in the guise of dark humor. I prefer someone positive or at least trying hard to be positive.
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Personally, I find intelligence and wit both attractive and important to me. I’m not talking about women who are all about “causes,” but I prefer real intelligence and wit just so she can keep up with me, and my sometimes quirky sense of humor….
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I don’t care about fashion in the sense of knowing all the brands, but I really appreciate a women who makes an effort to look sexy for me.
Ambition – I’m not sure how much ambition matters per se, but this is usually correllated with intelligence, which is a huge turn-on to me.
Wit is great as long as it’s tempered with humility and gratitude.
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Instead of bitching about all your female friends, why don’t you spend more time being enjoyable?
Because ambition is real and the clock is ticking and success is important.
And here’s Moxie saying you can’t win until you refuse to play. A subtle philosophy, very difficult to follow.
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“Men don’t judge a woman for getting drunk on dates unless she starts throwing punches”
Not so sure I agree with this one. If a girl is getting drunk on the first few dates, that is a turn off to me. If you are geting to know someone, stop at a couple of drinks. Thats enough to get a nice buzz and and not go overboard. If a girl needs more than that to have a good time, then it would bother me. Once I got to know her? Then fine. Drink away. But in the beginning? No way. I wouldn’t ask her out again. If I am only looking for something casual I could deal with that, but if looking for a a LTR, then drunkenness on first date or two would definitely make me think she isn’t girlfriend material. .
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Maybe it should be “Men don’t judge a woman for drinking a bit to loosen up and get warm and fuzzy and fun on dates”
No need to mention throwing punches.
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While it’s true that very good looking women can leverage their looks to overcome other flaws and still retain a man’s interest and that sexual attraction is a strong motivator, these are only part of a man’s motivation. Jane bitches that men give her “misbehaving” friends all the attention and ignore her, but doesn’t talk about what those friends get in the long term. Are they in relationships? Are they just getting laid a few times?
Unfortunately, the flaws she mentions in her friends (sex on a first date, getting “drunk,” saying they have a BF but still dating other men, not having good “fashion sense” or “unambitious”) are not flaws from a man’s perspective, especially if they are pretty and fit:
Sex on the first date is not indicator of a possible relationship. Sometimes it’s just sex, and nothing wrong with that. Sometimes it can lead to something longer: I’ve mentioned before that first-date sex in my case led to an 18-year marriage. As long as she’s not “sloppy” drunk or barfing in the decorative plants, it’s not an issue. What a woman says about a BF or whatever isn’t as important as what she does. Real insecurity isn’t attractive but that’s usually a long-term deal breaker; a bit of girlish coyness can be hot if not overdone. As long as a woman is appropriately dressed for the occasion, men couldn’t care less between Gucci or Gap; “fashion” in only of concern to the ladies. And ambition is a guy thing, so we don’t really care whether women have it; in fact if she has a burning desire to make partner or whatever, she’s likely more interested in her career than she’ll ever be in him.
All of Jane’s complaints smack of sour grapes. She’s not like that and can’t understand why her way doesn’t work. Yeah, she’s a “little” overweight, but dammit, she’s read books on flirting, has “great fitting” clothes and is “very” feminine, so why aren’t men flocking to her? Because she’s overweight and seems to think she’s better than her friends who are doing all the “wrong” things. Things Jane won’t do because she’s “not that kind of girl.” She just doesn’t get a chance in the first place; it clearly has nothing to do with jealousy. Men don’t try hard with her and hit her up for sex early on, not because she’s not stuck up, but because they see her as easy pickings.
Sorry, Jane. It’s good that you’re trying to lose weight, but if you’ve lost 80 lbs and are still a 14/16, you were grossly overweight. And your game plan seems like revenge: “I will know when I lost enough because men will talk to me and not my friends for once.” And that will show those pretty, slim, drunken, unambitious sluts! You’re right that your degrees and volunteering are not going to help. Chip, meet shoulder; shoulder, chip.
If you really want to have success after you have dealt with your weight issues, Moxie is quite correct: you have to deal with your attitude issues. Guys can spot a bad attitude a mile away, and getting them to talk to you won’t help if they find you unpleasant to be around. You’re going to have to lighten up and get over past resentment, and it’s not easy. You say you’ve been the “nice girl” in a way that indicates you’re not going to do that any longer. Wrong approach. Lose the extra poundage and hit the weights in the gym, and still be the nice girl (not the “good” girl necessarily; there’s a difference).
What do men really find attractive: fit women of appropriate weight for height, a pleasant personality, a good sense of humor, and someone who doesn’t sweat the small stuff. And reasonably good in bed…
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Sorry, Jane. It’s good that you’re trying to lose weight, but if you’ve lost 80 lbs and are still a 14/16, you were grossly overweight.
A size 14 isn’t that big. There’s a vast difference between being a size 12/14/16 and a size, say, 22. She wasn’t competing with women a couple sizes smaller than her. Though I have seen women size 16+ wrap men around their fingers. I hate to say it, but a size 16 woman hanging out with a bunch of skinny minnies isn’t doing herself any favors.
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Agreed 14 isn’t that big, but I think he meant before she started losing. It’s 10 pounds per size, I think. So she was 8 sizes larger, putting her firmly into the 20s size-wise. It is hard to compete when you’re that much larger than your friends…
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Ambitious? FASHION SENSE? Wtf.
Its a very common mistake though but one I find almost impossible to understand as I read yet another list of accomplishments and things I have zero interest in on a dating profile. I had previously assumed that it was because profiles after a point become written for the person posting them to read to themselves rather than for a third party to reply to (and always filed them under “not really interested in dating” as a result).
But it turns out some women genuinely believe this stuff is attractive? Have I got it wrong?
What would lead someone to think men found these things to matter, genuine question.
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some women genuinely believe this stuff is attractive?
It’s a common mistake women make: thinking that men are just women with penises and therefore evaluate women the same way that women evaluate men. Where this myth comes from, I don’t know, but anyone who is remotely attached to reality is confronted daily with hundreds, if not thousands, of counterexamples.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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It’s just human nature. Men make the same mistake by assuming a picture of their abs or dick is attractive to women in the same T&A are to them.
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Well OK but when a guy does that apart from being a flasher and a pest, part of the reason for the level of antipathy is that here is someone who clearly doesn’t like women.
He isn’t gay, he probably likes sex and he may even like “relationships” (however dysfunctionally defined), but he clearly doesn’t like women as women rather than as a means to an end that is all about him.
Do you think its possible there are some, maybe even many, women who when you come down to it just don’t like men very much? The Frisky type crowd certainly give that impression for example.
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I think there are a lot of women (and men for that matter) who have a warped sense of who people really are. I don’t read the Frisky much, so I can’t speak for the zeitgeist over there, but it wouldn’t surprise me to hear that a lot its readership has a really retarded notion of what it means to be manly.
Same goes for a lot of the manosphere blogs about women. There is a grain of truth in much of what they say, but it’s so laden with value judgements that’s you end up with a highly skewed view of reality. And so confirmation bias leads people to go around looking for “proof” of their views instead of weighing all the evidence.
Also, these sites are like any other media property: they thrive on sensationalism. Nobody wants to read a blog post about how men and women are generally good people. They’d rather read about the emotional equivalent of a school shooting.
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Yeah, she did repeatedly mention the bit about men approaching her friends and not her as if that were the beginning and end of her world and there were no other possible approaches or outcomes. If my friends are hotter and get approached instead of me, is that unfair? Sure, but – boo hoo. Life’s unfair. You can take that information and start hating the world or you can say “clearly this is not an effective strategy for me to meet men. What are some that are?” She’s just setting herself up to fail. It’s “nice guy syndrome” with the genders reversed.
She also doesn’t mention that these friends who get all this attention are having great relationships or are happy, just that they get attention she doesn’t. Also that “she’ll know she lost enough weight when men approach her instead of her friends”? What if that doesn’t happen? What if she loses tons of weight and is still only average looking? There will always be someone hotter than you. Looks do matter, but they’re just one piece of the overall package. What about you makes you stand out and makes people want to stick around? What do you value about men, what about certain men makes you attracted to them? Do you only zero in on the hottest guys or is someone OK-looking who’s funny and smart and nice and shares your interests on your radar as well?
One’s self-esteem can’t be so dependent on outside validation and “winning,” that’s the root of her bitterness.
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Did you check your email? I sent you a message about access to the protected profile review. Just FYI…
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I did, thanks, just didn’t really have a comment. ;o)
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Attractiveness has a lot to do with confidence. Her weight is not the issue. Its her insecurity. I lost 100 lbs. I went from a size 20 to a size 2. I thought I would be approached easlily, but I still had the insecurity of being overweight. It doesn’t go away easily. My older and heavier friends are approached more than I am. I’m still working on my insecurity and men sense that. I don’t think most of them care about a women’s weight. It’s confidence that men (and women) look for.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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No women in the history of dating has been approached and asked out because she “rolled with the punches.” Men seek women they find visually appealing, period.
Men do not care about your ambition or fashion sense. All true. If you are hot, a man would not care if you down 5 beers or drink seltzer, sleep or not sleep with him on the first date, discuss football or Focault during the date.
Can you imagine a man telling his buddies, ” This girl has the face of Bridget Bourdot and the ass of Beyonce, but I ain’t going to see her again because she is really smart/stayed sober on the date/didn’t sleep with me.’. Yes, that happens all the time, right:)
For GI Jane, I am glad you are addressing your weight. It’s all about getting the interview, and if you are 200 lb plus, your chances of getting that interview diminishes drastically.
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Go look at Men’s magazines and tell me they prefer women is big women.
What are you smoking? Men’s magazines are filled with stick figures, just like most women’s magazines.
Things I was referring to my friends doing wrong; sleeping with men on first date,
There’s nothing wrong with that according to virtually every man over 18 that I’ve ever seen/heard comment on the matter. The only people saying it’s “wrong” are women like you trying to slut-shame each other.
getting drunk on first date or initial meeting,
Probably not the best idea for several reasons, true, but if the guy is equally drunk, it probably doesn’t hurt.
saying they have a bf (to the guy!) but still making out/dating other men,
Yeah, that’ll instantly get a woman disqualified as relationship material unless we later discover she was lying about having a bf, which some women do as a defense mechanism.
being insecure,
That’s a serious red flag for both men and women.
not having good fashion sense, unambitious.
Those are things that are important to women, not men. Men aren’t just women with penises; we value different things than you do.
But the point is, the MEN continue to talk to them and hold most of the conversation. Why? Because they are interested in them and these flaws/faults mean nothing because sexual attraction trumps everything for a man.
Wrong. Physical attraction is what gets a man’s attention, and he’ll engage in conversation and try to get her into bed, but if there’s nothing more there, he’ll lose interest and move on. What’s better, to be continually pumped and dumped because you’re not relationship material, or to get no attention at all because you’re not hot?
I will know when I lost enough because men will talk to me and not my friends for once.
If even a tiny fraction of the bad attitude/personality you exhibit here comes through in person, don’t expect them to talk to you for much longer than they do today. One of the top things guys look for in a long-term partner is someone who is happy and fun, both in and out of the sack. In contrast, reading your comments makes me want to slit my wrists.
men like women who sleep on the first date? Really? As in relationship material? Your delusional.
No, she’s not. Most of my friends, if they know you well enough to be honest, will admit they slept with their current husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend on the first or second date. It’s only a big deal in the minds of women–and of immature little boys that you don’t want to be with anyway.
I haven’t tried these methods that my friends do because I am not that kind of girl,
There you go being catty and judgmental. Guys really love that kind of thing.
Also most girls who get approached don’t need to try, they just stand there and men strike up the conversation. I volunteer, take care of a physically challenged aunt, work in a social service career. Degrees, none of that matters.
How are guys supposed to know those things without talking to you? What is their motivation to approach you, versus the dozens of other women arrayed in front of them that, most likely, aren’t putting out a bitchy, catty, depressing vibe like you are?
Men don’t really try hard with me, they ask for sex pretty early on, which contradicts your point that I must be stuck up, because that is not how men act around Paris Hilton types.
Trust me, we’re asking for sex early on with every woman we date. Yes, a guy might stick around slightly longer if she’s super hot or we sense she might be relationship material, but any guy with options is going to move on fairly quickly if a woman doesn’t demonstrate she’s as interested as he is. Why waste precious time with women who are just looking for free meals and entertainment?
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1) news flash – most good looking guys, at least the kind it sounds like you are after, don’t/ won’t (seriously) date fat girls. Get over it.
2) news flash 2 – after a first date, the ball is in your court, ladies. If you are interested, LET US KNOW! Otherwise, we’re going to keep throwing stuff against the wall until something sticks. Showing interest in someone is a race not a marathon.
3) news flash 3 – most guys don’t want to date a prima donna. They are fun to look at and brag about and that’s about it…..they are trophies, that’s all.
K.I.S.S……keep it simple _______
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Just by saying she’s “not that kind of girl” a woman tips her hand as to how judgmental and uptight she is. That’s a dead give away. I’ve worked literally hundreds of singles event in my career and I know your type. You show up and stand at the bar or pull yourself off to the side and expect men to approach you. You stand there with your chip on your shoulder and look around and cast aspersions on everybody else. Then you can’t fathom why nobody talks to you. Here’s why: because people can smell your insecurity and resentment at fifty yards. Nobody wants to approach someone who gives off a vibe like that.
I think Moxie nails it with this.
But it’s probably not just “smelling the insecurity”; it’s that the insecurity bleeds into her “strategy” itself.
Others have mentioned it — the OP is not doing herself any favors by going out only in groups with her stick-figure friends. This strikes me as self-sabotage, and further evidence of insecurity (there’s little that annoys me more than women going out in clingy, hermetically-sealed “packs”. Have fun dating your girlfriends, girls!)
She can only help herself by improving her physique. But this can’t be the only source of problems, by far, particularly given that there are just as many less-than-top-shape guys out there as women. Unless the OP is shooting only for those “Don Draper” types, in which case, I suggest she recalibrate her expectations.
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For me there are some critical things that I look at in a woman, like the amount of extra weight, alcohol consumption, and how focused she is on her career.
Weight was very much a factor in my divorce after a 30 year marriage. Having seen the results of all of the extra weight on the body (bad knees and back – high cholesterol and blood pressure) was part of the reason for the end of the marriage.
Excessive alcohol consumption is bad news, as I had a parent that was an alcoholic. One of the women that I was dating also drank a great deal and her father was an alcoholic, so I ended that relationship shortly after I discovered that issue.
My ex was also so focused on work and her career that I came in a distant third in her priorities after her career and the dogs.
Everybody has things that they watch out for based on their past experiences and some of us are more sensitive to them than others might be.
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Of course, it depends on the man. A young (20′s to early 30′s), cool/fashionable guy who likes clubbing wants a woman that complements his style. A more mature man (over 40) still likes an attractive woman, yet it’s less about fashion sense.
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“Green flags” for me in a woman’s profile/offline personality:
Easygoing, loving, caring, love spending time with my guy, open-minded, genuine, down-to-earth, gentle, family-oriented
“Red flags” for me in a woman’s profile/ offline personality:
Fiercely independent, sassy, career-focused, busy, travel a lot, blunt, shrewd, opinionated, passionate about (X-cause), sarcastic, (X-types of people) need not apply,
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Anecdotal evidence in favor of ambition: I know several men, including my boyfriend, who seek ambitious partners. These men prefer to be with SOs who are comparably engaged with their own professional passions. They cite two reasons:
1. Unambitious people tend to be less interesting, grow more slowly, and have less to teach their mates. These guys said they don’t usually feel proud to present professionally complacent girlfriends/boyfriends to their friends and family.
2. If a person is really invested in her/his own career, she/ne is more likely to be truly understanding of a surgical resident’s hours, a consultant’s travel schedule, or an urban schoolteacher’s frustrations. If one is indifferent about her/his own career, she/he is more likely to nag her/his career-oriented husband when he isn’t home much.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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“These guys said they don’t usually feel proud to present professionally complacent girlfriends/boyfriends to their friends and family.”
That’s curious because among my friends—all of which are senior execs at major corporations or in the federal government—they are proud to present their wives (all of which are homemakers) as kind, loyal, honest, wives and mothers. And personally, I judge men and women on their character, not their career accomplishments. But most importantly and ultimately, I don’t think it’s important what your friends and family think of your partner.
“If a person is really invested in her/his own career, she/he is more likely to be truly understanding of a surgical resident’s hours, a consultant’s travel schedule, or an urban schoolteacher’s frustrations.”
Logically, I understand it but that doesn’t mean I want a woman that works such hours. As managing partner in a small media company, I work 12-18 hour days. I stopped dating women with similar professions/work hours because we could never build anything serious beyond sex—also, as workaholic, stubborn, ambitious people we clashed too much.
“ If one is indifferent about her/his own career, she/he is more likely to nag her/his career-oriented husband when he isn’t home much.”
I have never seen this kind of thing. On the contrary, when these guys in my set go on 3-week business trips, their wives know it is for the sake of the family’s financial interest.
Now, I’m not claiming my social set is a universal template for men. But this is what I’ve experienced. And if I had to bet money, I’d bet a lot more guys are looking for a woman (in an LTR/wife sense) who is kind, honest, gentle and basically has time for them—rather than a furiously competitive, ambitious, rapier-wit intellectual woman with 18-hour work days.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Caring about your career is mutually exclusive with being kind, caring, honest, gentle, etc.?
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Personally, I think there are certain base level requirements for good partners (honesty, trust, mutual attraction, fun, similar goals). A partner’s ambition or lack thereof (beyond simply taking care of themselves) is simply a matter of personal taste. A guy is entitled to be turned off by an ambitious woman, but those feelings do not render the woman Bad and Wrong and Unfeminine, they just make the two of them not a good match.
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Yes, I can certainly concede this point.
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Fuzzilla, you missed the keystone: The more focused and driven a woman is the less time and energy she has for me. In a real relationship, I’d much more prefer she have a job she enjoys with reasonable and flexible time and stress commitments. A woman who is willing to work every weekend for that promotion a year sooner is just too far from the sort of work life balance I’m looking for in a woman. There will always be another promotion, and if I’m not even a high priority before kids, where will that leave me after kids?
Doctor in residency/med school? Crazy shift Nurse? Grindhouse lawyer? I’m out. No chance. Teacher? Great.
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The ambition thing, I think, depends on the audience. I’d say the universal (or close to universal) thing that’s appreciated is that someone wants to improve themselves in a general sense. Learn more, stay in good shape, challenge themselves throughout life, whatever. But the work-driven ambition really depends. Some guys (see above) don’t want someone who’s consumed by their career, or at least want someone with a healthier work/life balance. I tend to fall more into that category, although my own sense of “work/life balance” maybe different from others. Other guys, though, might prefer someone who’s on the same page as them and understands when they say “Sorry, stuff came up with work.” In that sense, someone in an equally demanding profession may be a good fit. Or maybe they want a girl who’s a bit more hands-off, so that ambitious corporate climber fits in perfectly.
I don’t think any of this stuff translates into how kind/caring a person is in some absolute sense, but it does translate into how much time they can devote to you. Some guys want more, some guys want less.
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I think the big issue is that men are attracted to women with sex appeal, and that includes a lot of things other than how you look naked. It involves how women dress, their attitude, if they flirt, and if they have the positive vibe that comes from sexual confidence.
The tough thing for women like GI Jane is that today’s culture demands women to act completely differently than decades ago if they want to attract male attention. It is not enough to be polite, kind, and understanding. Women have to dress and act seductively, almost like a diva, to get noticed. That type of behavior doesn’t come naturally to many women, but they can change if they try hard enough.
Being sexually repressed or insecure is the kiss of death in today’s culture. Women have always competed for male attention, but the rules are different today. Now they have to own their sexuality and openly project their desire. And BTW, the same thing applies to guys. Nothing is more attractive than sexual confidence, and nothing is less attractive than being tentative or reserved.
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Such a fucking mess.
Is this a REAL blog for dating advice?! This is like a train wreck I can’t stop watching. I was actually annoyed when a question I submitted wasn’t answered. I should be grateful!!
I AM GRATEFUL NOW.
Too much of this blog ends up burning out in to some flame war. Its too rare to find bits of actual useful advice here. So many seem to come away embittered I wonder if this blog does more harm than good. It looks like everyone involved gets hurt a bit.
Meanwhile I have to stop reading this blog. If I keep spending my time focusing on negative things like this all I will be able to tell myself will be …”and that why you’re single.”
My apologizes to anyone that gives a thoughtful reply because I will not be reading or responding and just basically avoiding this blog. I hope the best for everyone here. May you all find some happiness or a least so kind of respite.
Good bye
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