This is what I call the stereotypical Manhattan single woman’s online dating experience.
Woman meets a guy online. He’s employed and well educated with a good job and impressive package. He strings her along for months, but instead of cutting him loose, she kinda hangs on to him, afraid to let him go because what if he turns out to be sincere? (Hint: he’s not.) All of the women rally around her and tell her to kick him to the curb, girl, while regaling her with stories about how, when they met their man, they didn’t have to tolerate any nonsense. None, you hear me? I mean, okay, so some of them have only had “their man” for a handful of weeks or months. But still. They’re advice trumps that of anyone else because, you know, they have a manz. It’s just one ongoing circle jerk that would leave any woman dizzy.
What we have going on now is a number of women pursuing the same men. These men are all employed, attractive, educated and engaging. They are in no rush to pick just one woman because…why should they? Women refer to them as players, but is that really accurate? Or fair? Is it their fault that most women would rather pursue them than consider the guys with fewer options? For several months now we’ve been reading about how there are fewer and fewer “marriageable men” out there thanks to the economic downturn. Fewer men graduating college means fewer men are able to be the type of providers that women seek. That leaves us with a bunch of ladies all setting their sights on a smaller population of men.
As I said in the comments of this post:
It all comes down to supply and demand and the fact that women hold on
to antiquated rules and gender roles. For whatever reason, women have no
problem embracing the fact that they are now the breadwinners and are
more educated, yet they can’t wrap their brain around the possibility
that that means they now become the providers. They want equality in
every area – financially, sexually, etc – EXCEPT in the case of having
the burden of being the provider placed on their shoulders. That’s where
they want traditional gender roles to stay in place. If they could move
past this and broaden their horizons, they could find a man who wants
to commit. Instead, they all go after the Big Fish – the guy with the
degree and the paycheck – and end up becoming part of a harem. Why
should a guy pick just one when he has and endless supply of women who
pursue him? Cut off the supply to these men and the problem goes away.
The solution seems so simple in theory: stop going after men with so many options OR date multiple men at a time. Yet few women want to do either.They’d rather cling to the tales they here from other women on the internet, who I’m sure did not settle in any way, shape or form. Nope. Not even a smidge. Those women found their dream man and she can, too, with a little pluck and perseverance. Here’s the problem with that thinking, ladies:
1. I can assure that at least some of those women settled in some way.
2. Keeping a man’s interest for a few weeks or even months is not proof of anything.
3. You probably wouldn’t want what those women have.
I’ve said this before: what threatens our chances of finding what we want is that we compare our insides to other people’s outsides. So rather than hope against hope that your life will follow the blue print of some other woman’s life, why not design your own? Stop crowd sourcing your love life. No good will come from that.
I don’t know when or if we’re going to see any changes to the current dating landscape. Right now, the men have the upper hand. They have enough options to keep them comfortable for the foreseeable future. You can try and fight it or you can follow their lead and do what they are doing. Chastising these men a and calling them players isn’t going to help you. They don’t care. They don’t have to. The fact remains that they are in demand.
If it’s a relationship you seek then you need to focus on the men who appear to have fewer options. If you’re emailing a guy, chances are someone else is too. Lots of someone else’s. Those men would be the ones who email you. I realize that that prospect doesn’t sound terribly appealing, but it’s the truth.
Solid advice!
Except the part about men having the upper hand. Maybe they do if they part of the shrinking population has “has it all” (especially high-paying employment). The ones who don’t, and are un- or under-employed (these days, often even if they have professional degrees), are more S.O.L. than ever.
So the converse of your point about all the women pursuing the “cream of the crop” of men (in the traditional criterion sense) is that many other great guys who aren’t part of that group are struggling to get dates. That would tend to be what most encounter.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
26 
0
This is a great column but i’d also like to add that a lot of the smaller fish men are going after women with a lot of options and then they get upset when they are shot down. Moxie has said repeatedly that people need to know their dating audience but a lot of people think they deserve “better” than they can get.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
26 
1
While true enough, I think her point is basically that women as well as men need to re-evaluate the range of their audience for the current times
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
14 
0
I agree…and PLENTY of men out there…have this sense of entitlement – I have seen/known some men who are in their 40′s/50′s – living with momma–yet they are seeking – an “independent” self-sufficient woman who a) doesn’t have children; b) – is educated and get this c) – LIVING ON HER OWN!
How can that be? And they feel they should/and can have that. They are not all that either in the looks department. age? Well–they are in their 40′s/50′s! divorced. And still hanging onto Momma’s apron?
I agree with Moxie–about not being part of a harem – and going after the ivy-league, corner office CEO – which every woman is after. But just finding one’s equal seems impossible these days. Why should a woman have to “provide” for a 40/50 year old man? We are all adults…seemingly. We should all be self-suffifcient!
Hot debate. What do you think?
9 
7
Sorry Eliza what you are saying simply female projection. Where are all these 40-50 yr old men living w/ moms who are bold enough to hit up women who are 10′s??? Not w/ all the plus size “BBW” models I see out there w/ there dating profiles on okcupid straight out saying they only date “athletic” men. Women for the most part still marry up & men know this so what are you talking about? I have NEVER heard a guy start off saying they an”independent” woman etc. that’s female talk & you know it. Nice try.
Like or Dislike:
6 
0
This is too good! I remember reading on OKCTrends that about 30% of all guys were getting 70% of all communications from women. I am sure this is even more skewed in Manhattan, as there are considerably more women than men. I have a guy friend who lived in Manhattan, had a decent job and was very good looking at 6’4 and in great shape. Needless, to say this was his exact experience. He had stunning women messaging him all the time. He had at least 2-3 dates a week, which more often than not turned into one night stands. His profile? A copy of a sample profile from the site with a few words changed around. Of course, he had a hand full of good pictures, including some professional ones. Further, he was stringing along a few of the “special ones” to see if something more could develop. He wasn’t a bad person either, but with so many options, why not get the most out of it?
Settle? What does that even mean these days? What some people are looking for is so unrealistic or extremely rare, it’s like they live in a different world. I think your advice for women is as good as it gets, and I hope more women actually use it, both on and off line.
“Right now, the men have the upper hand.” Ok, only the aesthetically hot ones. The rest are shit out of luck. There is no debate here. There are plenty of good guys out there; it just may take a bit of drudging through the duds to get to one. People often throw around that online dating is a numbers game, what they fail to mention or understand is that for this to be useful one must operate from a large and random sample. In other words, expand your parameters. This is true both ways.
I think that women forget that attraction works differently for men and women. What I have found from personal experience is that a man doesn’t have to be the best looking to attract better looking women, but that’s only in person. So women, don’t judge a book by its cover, in many cases, only when you meet them can you really know if you have any attraction for them.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
33 
1
That was good. I am glad we are really looking at a big part of the problem today. There are a couple of pieces, I wanna add. Online dating has magnfied the problem, causing women to imagine there is an endless pool of these guys out there. The only solution for women is to transform themselves on every level, instead of repeating the mantra of “love me as I am or leave me alone”. And the call to transform is just not to attract Mr. Big. The transformation will definitely attract Mr. Big, but you want to do it primarily to fulfill yourself.
Let me be specific. Rule number one, the world does not revolve around you, but you have a purpose for being here, find it, fulfill it and improve the lives of yourself and many others. Rule two, Internal change is greater than external change, but change internally should be so meaningful, that it creates external change.
Hot debate. What do you think?
15 
6
I think is has as much to do with American consumerism as the Internet.
The idea that the perfect product is out there on a shelf, if only we can find the right store.
And advertising constantly assures us that we deserve only the very best.
Hot debate. What do you think?
10 
1
Some insightful thoughts posted by a number of folks. Can’t say I disagree with either Moxie’s analysis or much of what the others said.
However, I wouldn’t be surprised if many people, both men and women, had a divergence of intellectually applying this vs. the visceral. Your brain might say I have a good handle on who might be compatible with them and who might feel the same in return. The visceral side may say something very different. The end result being that a few of either sex tends to garner most of the attention while many others either have to try harder or be more creative or just languish and become frustrated about the whole thing. Both can be equally culpable on this score.
As this relates specifically to the OP (read her post to get a better idea of her point), all I could really say is that you can rationalize almost anything about someone if you are really that into them. That’s no guarantee that they feel the same. Live and learn on that score.
Is that fair? Maybe not. But that sort of thing happens all the time. It’s called life. Deal with it. If you find that you are one of the ones in high demand then great, run with it and see what happens. If you are not one of those in high demand (and you know quickly if you are) then take stock of what things you can do to improve the odds in your favor. So you can either say to yourself “I won’t settle” or you can adjust your sights a bit.
One thing I really hate to hear is the frustrated refrain of “There is no one really good for me out there.” That says to me that there is disconnect between the value you perceive to offer others vs the value others perceive to place on you. By value I mean the chemistry and compatibility score. Not necessarily the value of someone as a person.
No easy solution to this one. Especially if the person keeps on doing the same thing again and again expecting different results.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
Your friend is a mental rapist.
Like or Dislike:
1 
1
In addition, we have a society that dictates through media and self-help publications that a woman can get a “good man” (financially stable, reasonably attractive, decent p and good values) if she has the correct mental attitude (values herself, doesn’t tolerate disrespectful treatment, behaves in a “ladylike” manner and keeps up her appearance). For the most part it is generally true. We somehow attract people who pick up on the signals we send out. Also, as you often say, one must “know your audience (league)”. If you are physically a 6 or 7, work with what you’ve got, develop your personality traits and go for a great 8 or a fantastic 5. After all, at the end of the day, what’s really important is mutual respect and compatibility. A reasonably intelligent person seeks more from a potential long-term companion than some “arm candy”.
Hot debate. What do you think?
11 
7
Oh…the “p” for “good man” traits is for personality:-)
Like or Dislike:
6 
2
Well, a decent Penis is nothing to sneeze at, either
Like or Dislike:
6 
0
There are no men so the multiple dating is unrealistic for women over forty or close to forty.
Disregarding the losers who want to lean on women.
Hot debate. What do you think?
6 
22
“We compare our insides to other people’s outsides.”
Someone should put this in a fortune cookie because it is genius. There is little correlation between what people present to the world and what is going on inside their heads and their lives. Its not about handlebar-moustache twirling evildoers either, this is a universal truth about human beings. You cannot ever tell a persons true character from what they do and say and you can only come close to guessing after a long period of time of observing what they do and say.
The author of the referenced piece is a moron. Who gave her keys to the Internet anyway? Really, she rejects guys because they don’t come up with magic words to seduce a total stranger on the Internet but will chase around a guy who has all but told her he is not interested or available. My view in general is that many (most?) women are primarily motivated to impress other women, not sex, not security, not comfort. To me, this is the best and most logical explanation for how women behave in the real world. The definition of an attractive man is one who, she thinks, other women want. That is, of course, a recipe for failure.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
30 
3
I strongly urge people to read the comments of that XOJane piece I linked to at the beginning of this post. Read all of the stories from the women who can’t wait to blab about the guy they’ve been dating for a whopping month/few months and how they’ve discovered the magic formula for finding Mr. Right.
Even the author of the piece says at one point how all the stories from other women about how they’ve met their men online has her feeling like a failure. Duh. That’s the point, dear.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
18 
0
My personal favorites are the “I gave up on men and then one day Mr. Wonderful answered my OK Cupid ad. i didn’t want to meet him and cancelled a million times but he was so persistent and it was love at first site. The rest is history.” I’m sure it happened EXACTLY that way.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
20 
0
Did anyone else notice in the comments when a man added his two cents (probably the only common sense in the entire article/comments) he was immediately flamed as a “PUA troll”?
Anyone know the age of the inane twit who wrote the post? I’m hoping 20s, that’s the only excuse
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
I’d guess late 20s/early 30s.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
“My view in general is that many (most?) women are primarily motivated to impress other women”
+1
I like how she twice boasted that men are covering her entertainment expenses:
“However, there are a few things I have gotten out of this experiment: several (free) dates (I’m talking lovely dinners, drinks, movies, shows, coffees)”
“Worst case? I have another fun, free evening out on the town.”
Also, she wanted a second date with a guy on New Years Eve? I would love to see the genesis of that scheduling.
My friend who the happiest husband was the WORST dater. Would maybe go out once or twice a year and hated it. He was socially awkward, terrible at small talk, (ladies brace yourself) under 6 feet, no style, and you had to imagine not funny. But one girl saw past all that, got past the jitters, dressed him and now has an appreciative husband on her hands. Pretty much the opposite of IJJ’s self-scripted love story.
Women should 1) Listen to Moxie and 2) listen to John Malloy (Why Men Marry Some Women and Not Others).
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Marry-Some-Women-Others/dp/0446614289/ref=la_B000APIT0I_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1358357928&sr=1-2
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
14 
0
Yeah, her “At least I got wined and dined” bit is exactly why a lot of guys are bitter and have the attitude of “Let’s do a date at the museum. At least I don’t have to pay for shit that way.”
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
15 
1
I was also amused by her gripe at the beginning of her post about guys who wrote short or one word emails (how can we get to know each other then?) but then at the ned she’s complaining about the men who sent her several lengthy emails. You can’t win with a woman like that.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
13 
0
Well, you could try a medium length email.
Like or Dislike:
6 
3
Better option; try no email and find a woman worth your time and efforrt
Like or Dislike:
6 
1
i say its better to meet woman in person. PUA are doing it all over the place in manhattan.I think internet dating is loosing its luster. it takes away the human part we are designed to use in meeting a partner.
Like or Dislike:
3 
2
It is true though that I think the wood is increasingly being missed for the trees with regard to the quest for someone who is good at dating vs. finding someone you can have a relationship with. They might be closely related but they aren’t actually the same thing. When you stop being able to understand that I think maybe you are burning out a bit. The means are becoming the end.
Like or Dislike:
7 
0
As for her decision to hang on to the guy who has been saying for 5 months he wants a second date with her, here’s her reason why she’s hanging on:
I’m a big ‘what-if’ person in general. I agonize over decisions all the time. It’s not that I really like him, I just feel like I might be missing out on my future husband if I say no to anotehr date.
It’s not that she really likes him, you see. It’s not because he has a great job and makes a lot of money and is really good looking. Don’t get ti twisted. It’s because she fears she is somehow screwing with fate’s design if she blows him off, like some dating-themed version of Final Destination.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
16 
0
>It’s because she fears she is somehow screwing with fate’s design if she blows him off, like some dating-themed version of Final Destination.<
Ah ha haa! Seriously, own your shit, gal.
It's understandable in a way, who doesn't wanna hold out for someone who makes them feel all giddy-crushy? Ask yourself how he makes you feel and what he provides you *overall and consistently*, though, not just the every five months he deigns to speak to you.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
Well, it’s no secret that we value youth. And although our value wanes as we age, it wanes much more rapidly for women. Quoting from the movie “10″, “why is it when a man gets old, he becomes distinguished, but when a women gets old, she just gets old?” Young women are like queen bees with more attention than they can handle. But when they get older, they forget they don’t have the value they had. They shrug off good men, as they pursue the men that are no longer in their league. In our youth, men get the short end of the stick, and as we age, women get the short end of the stick. Women didn’t complain about the unfairness when they had the edge, but as the situation reverses, they complain of the unfairness.
If 90% of the women are pursuing 10% of the men, then those 10% men have options, but the other 90% of men are still available. But women would rather pursue that elusive man. I know way too many men that want a committed relationship and marriage but I hear all the time that women cant find them.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
30 
7
Well put. But not just “cant find them”, not giving many of them a chance.
Hot debate. What do you think?
10 
2
Absolutely !! All the women I know over 50 finding real relationships have had to let go of criteria that seemed important (like height, income, hair, education level, etc…. ) but yet they are still happy with one or more of the “criteria” missing. The main criteria is that you feel good together going through days, nights, different experiences that are a part of normal life. Whatever works, not whatever meets the checklist
Like or Dislike:
7 
0
I read the XO Jane article. It gave me a headache. Women like that are part of why I quit dating online. I’m reluctant to read the comments on the article, which are likely aneurysm-inducing.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
13 
0
From what I see there is a small percentage of men who get nearly all the female attention. Those guys have a lot of power in that they can pick and choose. As you expand beyond that group of guys, that ability quickly falls off. It feels like to me that most of the single ladies are arbitrarily defining their league to be the top 5% or so of desirable men.
What a man needs are not exactly what we (at least I) would commonly think of…My one buddy had women throwing themselves at him when he was single. He was tall and I have been told by many to be quite good looking (I don’t think he is that great, but I am a guy) but is job was OK at best. Still, he had is pick of women.
The other thing I have seen many women do is grouping guys into two groups – Perfect and not perfect. There is no close. If a guy doesn’t tick all the boxes, then he is equal to all the other guys who didn’t tick all the boxes.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
17 
1
Yep. And I think guys are not helping their cause by sending out tons of messages and giving these girls an over inflated sense of their own attraction and desirability. If I was getting 10+ messages per day, I would think I am hot stuff too, so why not wait for the next best thing or go after the hottest person I can find. Ladies, am I off base here? Please do let me know.
Hot debate. What do you think?
11 
3
True, but as guys, we have to send out tons of messages because 95-99% of them get ignored. If I got a response from 1 out of every 4 or 5 women I contact, and I actually ended up meeting most of them, then I would probably be sending out messages to fewer women.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
Exactly! Steve may have said it better than me.
In Feudal times, Noblemen had a dozen wives. Women continue to paint themselves as the victim in this scenario….which is really untrue. The untold story here is…the real victims are the common men who had to do without women. These women were not victims – they had choice – they could settle down with a poor man dedicated to them or they could share in the concubine of a nobleman… these women chose to be in the rotation of a nobleman instead of a monogamous relationship with a common man.
It looks like not much has changed since these days!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
18 
4
Sorry, but I had to put my two cents and make a comment on this one.
For the women reading the comments that you should not always go after the 5% of men that have it all. Well the men that are in the 95% can hurt you and string you along just the same. I decided not to wait on a man I really wanted. In fact, I settled for one in the 95%. Was married for 11yrs. I was 32 almost 33 and wanted babies and marriage. I was college educated, steady job of 8 yrs, came from a middle class family,catholic background.I was never a materialic type person, in fact caring and giving. He was 4 yrs older that me, was from another country, high school education, low income job of two years,and no kids. He was nice and treated me nicely. We dated for 3 yrs and he always said, he wanted to get married and have kids. After the first year of marriage he started hanging out with his friends to parties and started cheating on me with other women from his country. I always thought marriage was forever, for better or for worse. When I could not take it anymore, I left him. Now, I am 44(but look good for my age- 5’6″ 145lbs 34-27-39) back in the dating scene and all I read is Moxie and others saying women over 40 have low to no options and have to settle. I did settle and still look what it got me. Still single and worst of all no kids. Found out later he was the one that could not make kids and was blaming me. So, I say to women reading go for want you want! You are still taking a chance either way.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
23 
9
I understand newcomerBK fully! Not sure if she has observed…but the men in our age group – that is, 40′s/50′s – are usually divorced…have kids and many are not “self-sufficient”. Why should a woman have to provide for them?! Because they are divorced with child support payments? There are NO guarantees., You would think (logically)–that by going after these so-called “average” men with little or NO options, a woman would stand the chance of being treated better? Yes? Wrong…these men, without few to ZERO options don’t offer much in terms of etiquette or conversation either. Just my observation. Which is why I don’t complain…I prefer the company of my girlfriends over that nonsense to be honest.
Hot debate. What do you think?
9 
2
I must say – though – it’s is quite empowering and liberating to be a woman that knows she doesn’t want any children or NEED to be married to feel complete. Because, when a woman is in this situation–she doesn’t need to validate herself by being in a relationship – with just anyone…and is OK being on her own. Who needs a liability–a man that is a mess? Living at home with parents or rather “off his parents” like some leech. Who needs to be with a man that doesn’t contribute “equally” – emotionally, and YES – Financially! One should only seek – what they can offer! That goes for both men and women.
Hot debate. What do you think?
8 
3
It is very true what you wrote it in your both comments. My experience is the same.
Although, it is very hard and painful to make this decision: no kids, no relationship etc. So this is the single situation but not by choice.
Like or Dislike:
0 
1
Well…it’s easier to just be on your own, as opposed to being with a man that brings you down, and doesn’t contribute anything positive. And it’s not as if one is “completely alone”–if they have family and solid friends around them. You can still date around, just not be exclusive.
Like or Dislike:
4 
1
I’m an attorney in a large firm in Manhattan. I work with a wide range of single women attorneys from late 20s to mid 40′s and its an ethnically mixed bunch. Their universal cry (apart from “there are no good men out there”) is that they will NOT compromise their “wish list” in the slightest. “He’s tall, dark and handsome but doesn’t make more than me. Pass”. “He’s perfect but I only want a man who’s over 5’10 and he’s only 5’8. Next.” “He’s 5 years older than me. I want a hardbody. Pass”. “I don’t date Republicans. Thanks but no thanks.” And on and on. In the meantime they are dating multiple times a week. I firmly believe that if the unicorn male magically appeared who fit all their criteria they’d still find something wrong with him. As Moxie has so accurately described they reinforce each others behavior with “Never settle.” and “You deserve whatever you want.” Its amusing and sad.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
31 
3
Again, you are falling into the trap of listening to how women describe their decison-making process and believing they are accurately reporting their decision-making process. Those are vastly different things.
What you are observing there is women attempting to justify to each other their otherwise directionless decisioin-making. Sexual “choice” for women is a gift of society, culture and civilization, not of nature. They literally do not know what to do with it.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
19 
3
Her argument about not making the first move is quite funny.
She could find a 15 or 16 year old male to talk it over with, they feel the same way.
It does kind of suck and it doesn’t seem to lead to anything, it isn’t fair. Welcome to the NFL.
Like or Dislike:
4 
0
Mindstar: mind you…you are referring to primarily “attorneys” that are women. Sorry–but they probably feel their diplomas give them that sense of entitlement – to not budge one inch from their so-called “wish list”…which is miles long. Chances are–those women would probably not even give a guy a chance if he was say–a paralegal, or successful–but not “white collar”. It’s all about the almighty EGO. Those women will stay single–for quite a long time.
Hot debate. What do you think?
9 
2
If you’re going to have a site that discusses the very narrow geographic slice of Manhattan as its reference point, you need to preface all your dating advice accordingly.
Your opinion that “men have the upper hand” is refuted by all the available evidence.
Take the Amtrak train to the nearest city outside of Manhattan and you’ll see that there is no shortage of single men. As a matter of fact, they outnumber single women, sometimes by a very hefty and visible margin.
The ladies in my city of Washington, D.C., would strongly disagree with you that they are out of options. Every day on the streets of D.C. I see GQ-looking guys with extremely frumpy girls who didn’t even brush their hair — and not only that, but the girls aren’t even all that appreciative of who they’re dating. They are outnumbered 2:1 and they know it — they are hit on every day even if they’re not that attractive. The majority of guys are single and desperate. On college campuses, as reported by Susan Walsh of “Hooking Up Smart,” 20% of the guys get 80% of the girls. This isn’t my quote — it’s hers.
I know it’s hard to believe, but life is drastically different once you leave the 10-block radius of Manhattan.
Hot debate. What do you think?
8 
2
Really? Washington DC about 600 thousand people, about 232 thousand are between 20 and 39, only 109 thousand of those are male, that’s less than half. 2 to 1? If I had more time I would analyze surrounding Md and Va counties, but I am certain, the percentages would not change all that much.
And are you seeing all the women who are struggling to find someone, and how on earth do you know that these girls are even with these “GQ” guys?
Does Manhattan cover all possibilities, certainly not, but as it all goes, the NYC tri-state area is the most populous and probably the most ethnically diverse area of the country, and as such cannot be ignored.
Are there areas of the country where men outnumber women, yes, the north east is just not one of them.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
Let’s also not forget that women don’t get to determine what men find attractive. All I hear is sour grapes from a woman who doesn’t appear to be able to compete with the “frumpy” girls who don’t brush their hair.
I never said their was a shortage of single men. I said there was a shortage of single men that the types of women discussed in this post wish to date. Those men have the upper hand because they are in high demand. Those “frumpy” women probably aren’t holding out for Mr. Big. They’re happy with Mr. Middle Management. Either that or those women, despite what you project onto to them, are low maintenance and agreeable and easy to deal with. That kind of demeanor can make up for a lot.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
15 
1
I, too, would be happy with Ms. Middle-of-the-Road. Except in the case of men, a staggering number of them can’t even get to that point, unlike for women, where the frumpy ones are assumed to get Mr. Middle Management and any female who cares to step on the bathroom scale in the morning can actually aspire for Mr. Big.
Thus, women are speaking from the position of luxury. Do you realize that? You *assume* that men are generally available, and the next step is to restrict them by desirability or some other extra factor. What would happen if your *original* assumption didn’t hold — if there weren’t enough men around to begin with?
This is such a remote scenario for women that you take for granted that you’re always responding to offers and just categorizing them. But men actually have to deal with the far more fundamental problem that, in many cases in this country, they’re not even surrounded by that many single women to begin with.
Like or Dislike:
5 
4
Wow–I need to visit D.C. – and soon! Thanks “someone”…it’s on my bucket list of places to see…men to meet! hahaha. Not sure what men consider “frumpy”…it’s all the eye of the beholder I guess.
Like or Dislike:
6 
1
Eliza, I’m coming too. Road triiiiiip!!!!
Like or Dislike:
1 
1
Save yourself the trouble. I used to live in DC and the numbers posted above (the original ones) arent quite accurate. THere are more single women than men there. Also, and I NEVER see this addressed anywhere, I never see stats for the entire metro area, but I would expect them to be the same. What probably happens in DC is that large numbers of women remove themselves from the dating pool so they can focus on their careers. Not surprisingly, men outnumber the remaining desirable women. Want to go somwhere where men outnumber women? Go west – California probably has the most skewed numbers in your favor.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Women want to be treated as equals in all facets of society except for dating. Super-duper career woman wants to leave work each evening and walk into some sort of courtship ritual which all guys are supposed to be genetically wired to know and understand. Particularly women from the City. That attitude combined with the “never settle” mind-set has created the disfunction you see now. Good luck, ladies. Enjoy the single life.
To make a long story short, most men are confused. They dont know what the hell the next move should be so they just guess. Sometimes they get it. Sometimes they dont.
All the things you mention….less guys graduating from college, fewer marriageable men, etc., really has taken a toll on what role a person should play in a relationship.
Sorry ladies, you can’t have it both ways.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
17 
5
I generally have a lot of options and the reason I don’t “settle down” is simple. Most woman are boring. Oh sure it’s always fun when you first meet getting to know someone new. But after that it’s “dinner, movie, sex.” So, I move on. It has nothing to do with supply and demand.
Hot debate. What do you think?
6 
18
Joey–you ARE part of the equation when it comes to dating you know. If you are repeatedly bored…it’s most likely YOU are the “boring” factor too. At first, meeting someone can be quite fun…hopefully it is. It’s all new. Eventually–if all you are doing is going to a dinner, movie and then sex? Well…then perhaps you need to learn how to initiate a better time…and be part of the solution rather than the problem. Because if ALL women or MOST women become boring…you are the common denominator here–and are more than likely contributing to that boredom. Suggest a game of pool, ice skating, hiking, the theatre, off-b’way, a comedy show, bowling…a cooking class, a sporting event–any one! The list goes on. You need to change your attitude…so that the women don’t get BORED with your “dinner, movie sex agenda”. That’s the truth,
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
13 
0
Why should he change his attitude? He seems happy with the status quo.
I think women in general overestimate how much guys need relationships, especially guys who have options.
Hot debate. What do you think?
4 
7
D-Man–if you go back and re-read my comment…I was referring to his attitude/views with respect to “blaming boredom on the women”…when it’s clear he is part of the equation. You are only as boring as you allow yourself to be – if you constantly bored with the company of others…it’s obvious that you (being the person complaining) is the common denominator and cause of that boredom. And actually–the women are more than ready – to move on themselves…because an interesting person would want more than the monotony of “dinner, movie and sex” – as Joey so eloquently stated.
Like or Dislike:
6 
0
“To be bored is to be boring.” –Unknown
As much as I hate to agree with Eliza, a stopped clock is still right twice a day. If you find that most people bore you, then you are the one that’s boring.
Like or Dislike:
7 
0
Moxie’s comment about women needing to move past traditional gender roles and accept being the “provider” is interesting given that she has stated she would “never date a man who doesn’t make as much money as her” in a fairly recent post. So I guess this directive applies to other women but not her… Or, maybe she is willing to settle in other areas but not finances… Or maybe she’s scored herself one of these coveted specimens everyone is competing for and wants us to know it. Hmmm….
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
19 
3
Ive never said any such thing. Ive said a man needs to support himself. Ive never said a man needs to make as much as I do. Youre imaging things.
Hot debate. What do you think?
7 
9
Not true. I will find it if you didn’t go back and delete it. Literally, “I would never date a guy who makes less money than me.” I think you tossed that one off to try and insult someone who mentioned she makes more than her bf. it was in the comments section of a reader rant about women having to settle, I believe.
Hot debate. What do you think?
8 
5
In the same comment, you clarified that a man who makes less than you wouldn’t be your “equal.”
Hot debate. What do you think?
8 
3
November 19th at 3:41pm. You wrote ” I would never date a guy who’s financial situation wasn’t at least comparable to mine.” It’s in Reader Rant: What do you mean women over 35 have to settle? So yeah, you said it.
Hot debate. What do you think?
11 
2
His financial situation. Not his salary. His financial situation meaning he lives on his own, pays his bills and supports himself. I’ve said that over and over again. I’ve also said that I don’t care what a man does as long as he supports himself. How much he makes isn’t the issue. Whether he supports himself is. I would never be involved with someone with a roommate, who is in between apartments, unemployed or who didn’t work at something full time. Someone like that isn’t my equal.I would never get into a situation where I had to support someone because they choose to flit around or pursue a pipe dream.
I’m also not complaining about finding guys online to date. The post was directed at the women who use online dating and gripe about how nobody is good enough and how guys blow them off and they can’t find men to commit.
Hot debate. What do you think?
15 
11
Ooooookay
Hot debate. What do you think?
8 
12
Ha, I think what you’ve demonstrated is that, while your comprehensive diagnosis of the problem in this post is spot on, your solutions need some work.
You’ve injected a stunning new medicine to a laboratory rat which gives it the intellectual capacity and imagination of a highly functioning human being. The lab rat then proves to you, to an impressive mathematical certainty, that he is trapped in a cage.
Women are not going to date multiple men to satisfy all their “needs” because they don’t, in fact, date to fulful those needs. And, dating men with “no options” is a paradox because, if you are willing to date them, then other women are too. There is now way around it. And, of course, as Angel’s criticism points out, you don’t want to date someone without options either.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
18 
0
Right. These women date to impress other women. That’s why they hold out for the Big Fish instead of choosing from some of the smaller ones that contact them.
Like or Dislike:
4 
4
“Needs work…” So true. If a woman is over 35 and can’t find dates or someone to settle down with, she should go for men who have few or no options, and she should accept that she may need to be the provider, yet she should NOT settle for someone whose financial situation isn’t the same or higher than hers. Does that about sum it up? Oh, and she shouldn’t be bitter and complain about past dates online or post links to guys’ OKCupid profiles… Unless, I guess, she does so in a password protected post of the sort that’s been hacked into easily in the past.
Hot debate. What do you think?
14 
6
The password protected posts were to discuss issues surrounding the estates of my father and step-mother.
But since you have access, why don’t fill everybody else in what you learned. You know, since you’ve hacked it. Go ahead. I give you permission. There’s been some juicy tidbits in there about what’s going on with my family, so do it if it’s going to make you feel better.
You’re clearly still pissed about something, and that’s fine. Now you’re going to lurk and write ominous comments because…I don’t know…you’re bored. You’re desperate to point out what a hypocrite I am because..why again? Because you’re pissed that I never asked Lost Sailor publicly to curb back his comments? Didn’t you pull the “I’m leaving and I’m never coming back” routine last month? You’re obsessed with the blog. We got it. You’ve committed comments to memory and hacked private posts. Gotcha. Scary.
I’m not complaining about not meeting men. I’m not the one holding out for something better and spinning my wheels. I don’t know, should I apologize for that? Whatever your problem is, deal with it.
Hot debate. What do you think?
9 
11
One other thing. Weird that your IP address and K’s are identical. I’m embarrassed that I never looked at that sooner.
So, go ahead Kate. Tell everybody what you read in those protected posts. Do it. I double dog dare you to do it. Not so ballsy now that I know who you are, have your name and photo, are you?
Hot debate. What do you think?
5 
15
Oh..congrats on your engagement, Kate. Really. We can’t wait to hear all the details. Everybody, Kate just got engaged on January 3. Mazels!!!! Here’s hoping it goes better than the last time, amirite?? You go girl.
Hot debate. What do you think?
7 
14
Yikes! I don’t think you know anything about me personally that you could embarrass me with… Nor do I know anything about you. I didn’t hack into your posts. You mentioned someone had gotten ahold of the password of a past post and circulated it around.
If you’re saying you’re going to out me as a bored person who lurks on a dating blog and makes antagonistic comments, I mean, go for it. It’s true.
I haven’t said anything here that I don’t discuss with people in real life. But I personally wouldn’t go as far as to post anyone’s real name online. If you do, that’s on you.
Hot debate. What do you think?
7 
5
Antagonistic comments, antagonistic emails directly to me, etc. You can back pedal all you like, crazy. You take a blog ridiculously seriously for somebody with such a full life.
Hot debate. What do you think?
5 
8
Angel/K – Why do you/some readers here get so bent out of shape over a god dam blog? Its not the end of the world, end all be all, second coming etc Its Moxie’s blog, her opinions so… again I am unclear why some get so overly emotional over this? There are much more fulfilling things in life than someone’s opinions on a blog. I for one read, sometimes write a response here or there or if nothing to say or sometimes disagree I just say my peace once and leave it be or here is another concept, JUST MOVE ON!
I must be missing some profound point as to why you/some readers do this harping/holding a grudge/beating a dead horse. Get over yourselves, SERIOUSLY!
Side note: I am a long time reader – circa 2004
Like or Dislike:
9 
0
You’re totally right, can’t argue.
Like or Dislike:
1 
3
There is a huge difference between what someone makes–that is, their income–and what their financial situation is. There are quite a lot of people who have high incomes who also have a lousy financial situation. For example, I know people who have six-figure incomes who are also drowning in debt. I also have a friend who, technically, doesn’t have any income at all, since he managed his financial situation rigorously and well, and now is semi-retired at a young age and living quite comfortably on his investments.
Angel made a very specific claim about what Moxie wrote Literally, “I would never date a guy who makes less money than me.” And then tried to claim the statement ” I would never date a guy who’s financial situation wasn’t at least comparable to mine” was the same thing, ostensibly “proving” her point. Sorry, they are not the same thing. Angel just doesn’t have the grace to admit she was wrong.
Angel also doesn’t seem to understand the distinction between women who genuinely want commitment and a relationship and women who want a fantasy. The former will take a clear-eyed look at what they want, and, yes, they will “settle” on a man, and probably be the happier for it.
The other women, of whom Moxie rights, will “refuse to settle” and will hold out for the fantasy of the perfect man, fairytale wedding, and love everlasting, all with a gauzy, gently glowing, sparkly nimbus around it. They’ll continue to insist on dating only the men who have lots of other options and complain when they can’t get him to commit to her. But she will never, ever even consider “settling.” It’s not really her fault, though, since even if she were to consider another, “lesser,” man with whom she could be happy, her mindset simply won’t allow her to “settle.” She’s caught up in the “What If…” scenario that plays constantly in her head. What if I “settle” for someone and then my fantasy man comes along?
The woman in the linked post is a perfect example: she’s still holding out hope for a great guy who meets her fantasy checklist and who has taken 5 months to set up a second date. She knows it’s not likely to happen, but she’s still got this in her head:
Unfortunately, these women can all too often become bitter when they hit 38 or 40 or 45 and the fantasy hasn’t come true. What they never realize is that when you enter a committed relationship, you have by definition “settled.” You have precluded the “what if.” So, by definition, women who disdain the idea and insist that they’ll “never settle” will never have a committed relationship, with either sparkly unicorn man or a real-world man…
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
14 
4
“What If” and “holding out” are tough though. Remember lots of men who’d never commit to her in a million years would and probably have slept with her. Add wishful thinking to that and you’re asking a lot of someone in a way to have clarity over their situation. I think women do a better job there than men would if the same situation appeared.
We laugh at the idea of a unicorn because we’ve never seen one.
What if you thought you’d seen one on several occasions… or, hehe, at the least horn anyway.
Like or Dislike:
5 
0
Exactly! I think this is absolutely prevalent in dating these days. What I think it comes down to is a fundamental sort of immaturity — an inability to make choices and accept the consequences of those choices. Some of that, I think, is driven by fear, which ties into the “What if…?” mentality. As in “What if…I pick the wrong guy?” So they set their sights on a life without consequences and love without risk. Which is, of course, a total pipe dream.
This explains why they pine for guys they KNOW are wrong for them, all while clinging to some delusion about how they could have this perfect life with him if, you know, he was anyone other than he is (to wit, unavailable/deeply-fucked-up/whatever). It’s easier to focus on something unavailable, particularly when you KNOW in the back of your mind that it’s unavailable than to risk your heart in a real relationship. It’s easier to go for this attractive douchebag, because when he inevitably acts like a douchebag, you can always say “Well, he’s a douchebag anyway, so I don’t care.” This also explains why they pass up guys who don’t fit exactly the criteria they want. “He’s 5’9 and a half? NEXT. You must be 5’10 or taller to ride THIS ride. NEVAR SETTAL!11!!”
To an extent, I think online dating doesn’t cause this mentality, but it sure feeds the delusion that they can hang in long enough and eventually the perfect prince charming will show up. Or at least another hottie douchebag who’ll give them the opportunity to post pithy picture-slogans on Facebook with mantra like “Don’t make someone a PRIORITY in your life, when you’re just an OPTION to them.”
I think a lot of these folks (and this isn’t necessarily limited to women — guys do this shit too) are incapable of being in relationships. Getting into them, maintaining them, etc. All of that, as you point out, requires a degree of “settling.” Compromise, accepting deviations from your perfect-fantasy-unicorn-person, and recognizing that you can appreciate people in spite of (and in some cases BECAUSE OF) their flaws. They’re unwilling or unable to recognize that their fantasy is just that: a fantasy. They still have this childish view of the world that somehow you can find a life and relationships where there is never anything less than perfect happiness all the time.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
11 
0
What?!?! I thought a woman could have it all without sacrificing anything. What do you mean she can’t have a high powered career and be married to a very sexy, handsome, caring man also with a high powered career that way she does not really need her career. Men are not suppose to notice that at 30 she has aged and that women five-ten years younger are more attractive now. She can have it all. That is what I heard anyway. Being a guy, I never heard that directed at me.
Hot debate. What do you think?
9 
8
You can use fear to hoodwink a woman into dating you : oh you are over 30, no one wants you, etc etc. but remember that woman will never love you. She may settle for you, but she will always pine for what could have been.
I see so many unhappy marriages – the wife never respects the husband, does not find him attractive, begrusges any intimacy. Guess what – you married a woman who settled for you because she was scared.
A thought for all the preachers of “settling” : what you end up with are loveless marriages.
Hot debate. What do you think?
17 
12
Settling != loveless marriage.
Settling also != “Oh well…I guess you’ll do.”
You do get that choosing to be with someone, by definition, requires that (A) you accept their imperfections, and (B) that you forego the possibility of something better maybe some day coming along, right? Doesn’t that sound like settling? Yet, if you give up the notion of “If I just hang on long enough, I’ll find better…”, and if you are genuinely happy with the person in front of you, why would that mean you end up with a loveless marriage?
You only end up in a loveless marriage if you find yourself constantly pining for something better than what you have.
Sounds to me like, when you get down to it, you’re afraid to make a decision for fear of “What if I picked the wrong guy? What if the next guy would’ve been better?”
If you’re always wondering that, you’ll never be happy in a relationship.
Like or Dislike:
6 
0
D, this is a dating blog; most people aren’t going to know “C” syntax.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
Man, are people really so self-righteous that they rather be right and miserable versus making the best out of their situation and trying to be happy or just ending things. The truth is most people have got not a clue of what will actually make them really happy in a long term relationship, so they all resort to following the culture of “I have to be attracted to him the first time I lay eyes on him, got to have money/career/stability, etc.” So “Settling” is a loaded word that has no purpose on the dating scene other to signify that you have found a mate and chosen to pursue a meaningful long term relationship with them.
Like or Dislike:
6 
0
Why would you want to be married/in a relationship wirh a woman who doesn’t find you physically attractive?
Why do you want someone who didn’t feel anything about you and had to talk her self into liking you? (Geez I am 32. I suppose he is the best I can get.) why do you want your future wife to feel This way want you?
Hot debate. What do you think?
7 
5
I would not want to. And I did not mean to imply that. But if you were the one to “talk yourself into liking the guy” why not make the best of it; nobody put a gun to your head. Otherwise, keep looking for what you want.
Like or Dislike:
3 
1
I firmly believe that “looks” come and go…sure, it’s universally understood and accepted and expected that we all must be somewhat attracted visually to someone we will be intimate with and get that close to…one would think. However, in time, sooner rather than later, other more intangible characteristics come to play…and even the most visually beautiful person can become ugly to the core – if they lack certain qualities…and I would lose attraction to someone that doesn’t treat me right, and who doesn’t demonstrate kindness, understanding and a complimentary demeanor.
Eventually, looks fade…beauty is skin deep…and what remains at the core of it all – is a person’s soul.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
11 
0
India–so true. I wouldn’t want to be someone that just won by “default”. No thanks. To spend every day with someone you can take or leave? No way. And being intimate with someone you are not passionate about? Even worse. I guess loneliness = desperation for some. Marriage or love is not something a person “makes the best of”. I don’t agree with that statement “If you can’t be with the one you love–love the one your with.” Or is that a song?!
Love and relationships are not a “job” or mere obligation–it’s truly a choice. In some cases we can have to work around our relatives…because they are family–and even in such cases–we can limit contact for the sake of sanity!
Hot debate. What do you think?
8 
2
Eliza, you and India are creating another false narrative. While it is certainly true that there are women who scare themselves into relationships out of fear (I’m getting older and he’s the best I can do, so I’ll just take it while I can), no one here, as far as I can tell, and certainly not me, is advocating “settling” for someone you are not attracted to, don’t love, and don’t respect.
That narrative of “settling” is meant only to keep the fantasy of finding the perfect man alive and well: don’t settle for anything less than your fantasy man because you’ll end up stuck in a loveless relationship/marriage “pining” for the unicorn that might have been.
And that’s the fundamental flaw in India’s reasoning, though she incorrectly phrases it as “what could have been.” She’s advocating still clinging desperately to the fantasy, which can often be toxic, not only as she describes by killing an otherwise good relationship, but also by precluding ever actually finding a good relationship.
Clinging to the fantasy, supporting it with a steady diet of Rom-Coms, chick-lit novels, and SATC reruns, keeps that Fantasy Checklist alive and well. And every man such a woman meets or dates will be compared to that checklist and will always fail. It encourages women to look for only the flaws in men to find reasons to reject them. The only men who might live up to that impossible standard are men who may stick around for a short while, but will never actually commit.
Getting rid of the fantasy and the fantasy checklist and taking a hard, clear-eyed look at what one wants in life and relationships will encourage both women and men to start looking for the good aspects of dates and potential mates.
It’s not “settling” that leads to loveless relationships and marriages, it’s clinging to the fantasy and “pining” for what might have been, while ignoring the good thing you have in front of you.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
13 
3
A woman wanting to meet a man she is physically attracted to? That is not fantasy. That is the basic requirement of a relationship.
Stop trying to talk women into dating you. You may not want what you wish for.
Hot debate. What do you think?
7 
14
Let’s not be obtuse.
No one ever said you shouldn’t want to meet a man you’re physically attracted to. Which is a completely different thing than having unrealistic expectations that poison your chance of dating/relationship success and ultimately happiness.
And no need to concern yourself about me, Rani. I do just fine…
Like or Dislike:
5 
2
This. A thousand times over, this.
The people who are hanging on to that fantasy notion (men and women, mind you), are usually the same people who are also chasing after people who are wrong for them. Emotionally unavailable in some way, disinterested in them, deeply fucked up, whatever. They go for the guaranteed dead-ends who are never going to turn into a real relationship, while holding on to hope that the person in question is their fantasy person. (They aren’t.)
It’s all part of the same behavior pattern, which I tend to think is mostly about fear of the risks involved in a real relationship. Real relationships require giving up a certain amount of control and accepting the risk that you may very well get your heart broken. Not just by some easily-dismissed jackass, but by someone who’s actually a good person, whom you respect even after the breakup (which, in turn, only makes it hurt worse).
It’s a lot easier to just reject most people for not meeting your criteria, while simultaneously dating people you subconsciously KNOW will end in disaster, than it is to actually go for something real and meaningful.
Accept the risk and do it anyway with the recognition that the reward makes it worthwhile.
Like or Dislike:
9 
0
“no one here, as far as I can tell, and certainly not me, is advocating “settling” for someone you are not attracted to, don’t love, and don’t respect.”
The pressure though, is on women to change their attitudes/standards/expectations so that they are capable of being attracted to, loving and respecting the men they previously overlooked. This is akin to shaming/brainwashing a man into thinking the 300lb BBW is a marriage-worthy 8 or 9.
Hot debate. What do you think?
0 
11
I’m so sick of listening to women whine about this. Look, if you get to your mid-thirties or so and are STILL struggling to find Mr. Right, what you’re doing isn’t working. That’s it. And if you think, by 35, that search isn’t going to become exponentially more difficult, you’re out of touch. So you’re choices are to re-evaluate your approach, accept that the guys you want either don’t want you or will only give you so much, or be alone. Those are your options.
The problem isn’t that you ladies can’t find someone that you’re attracted to. The problem is that you’re attracted to men who have an abundance of options, don’t want to commit or are way out of your league. Once you’re passed 33 or so, you have aged out of the ability to pass on every guy that doesn’t immediately make you all gushy.
Those stories you hear about that woman who found twu wuv after years and years of struggling are mostly lies. She settled, ladies. She settled. The only brainwashing going on is the junk you read about on Facebook, hear at tedious Girls Nights Out and in the comments of blogs.
Yes, the pressure IS on women to change because the majority of gripes and whines about all of this come from women. The men are telling you how to fix the problem, but you’re choosing to turn a blind eye to what they say because it doesn’t jive with the fucked up inner monologue you’ve been repeating since you were 18.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
16 
2
The question that a woman has to answer:
In 10 years, when I married the man for whom I settled, and I am married to a man that I am not really physically attracted to, who isn’t able to provide for me (I am actually the bread winner and work 70 and 80 hrs a week), and I still manage the lion share of running and house hold and child care, am I really happier?
Hot debate. What do you think?
1 
13
Nobody has to answer it. It’s another one of those manufactured threats that women like to pass amongst each other. You’re going to hear what you choose because it aligns with your inner narrative. What you don’t hear is how many of those women who talk about how happy they are with the man they held out for are either pretty miserable or did in fact settle. No woman will ever admit to settling because she doesn’t want to deal with the barrage of criticism and judgment that comes at her by other women.
We get it, dear. You refuse to settle because attraction is sooooooooooooooooooo important to you. Understood. You hold fast to that one.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
16 
1
In today’s world, for happier ending for many woman may no longer be marriage and 2 kids. My only point. If you are a financially independent woman, what is in it for you to marry a man who is below you financially and you are not terribly attracted to?This entire blogs tells woman who go after men they are attracted to that they Are delusional and miserable, but is the alternative so very awesome?
I lived in Japan for a year, and curiously many working woman there had figured this out (there is a marriage shortage there for men actually). Many choose to live life on their own terms, have meaningful relationships that does not equate to marriage, and never have to kowtow to a husband and in laws.
Live life on your own terms. Do not listen to other cry how you are old and how you will be miserable without a ring on my finger. Certainly be true to yourself on who you love – because the most unhappy people I know are the unhappily married ones.
Hot debate. What do you think?
4 
10
I do understand your concept – entirely. And it makes sense. For an established and successful woman that works and has her act together – it simply makes absolutely no sense to confine herself to a man that isn’t “self-sufficient” and her equal in terms of being able to contribute. It’s more of a detriment obviously. But what I think the blog is about – is women who base their judgments and look at men who are emotionally unavailable…why? Merely because they are great looking, have a nice body, yet don’t offer much else. And because these types of men have that…and are also successful, some have the pick of the litter–and are unwilling to be monogymous. Why continue to go after such men? When there are other men – who may not be as “gorgeous”–yet they DO have great qualities – and are decent looking guys–that DO want a relationship. A loser is a loser – man or woman. Just because a person doesn’t have “options”–doesn’t necessarily make them more inclined or able to be in a healthy relationship either. A relationship is a lot of work. Some people are just not able to give of themselves that way.
Like or Dislike:
2 
1
India, you ask what the benefit to a woman settling for someone who isn’t their prince charming is for a financially stable woman? What about companionship? You talk as if these women are settling for men they don’t enjoy or are “cave trolls”, as someone else put it. That’s usually not the case. Usually, the term settling is used to say it’s not that puppy love we all wanted as children.
But let me ask you this. Forget about today. Think about your life at age 65. You no longer are going out every day with friends. Your job is coming to an end. You have nothing but time on your hands…and no one to share that time with. That could be a pretty lonley 30 years of your life if you turn down great companionship, especially if you turn it down for only shallow reasons.
Hot debate. What do you think?
10 
2
India, What are you talking about? I don’t see anywhere Moxie telling women to “settle” for ugly lazy dead beats. There are definitely a lot of guys out there who might not be all that attractive, but would be good husbands, fathers, and providers.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
11 
0
India, do you really view the choice as between your mental image of perfection and a lazy, ugly deadbeat? Do you really see things as that black-or-white? Do you not recognize that there’s lots of people in between “horrid cave troll” and “prince charming?”
Nobody except YOU is saying “Settle for the cave troll.” What most folks here have been saying is “Open your eyes and recognize that not every guy who isn’t prince charming is a cave troll, and you might ACTUALLY find some real happiness.”
Look, if you’re in your 30s or up, you want to be in a serious relationship/marriage, and yet you find yourself chasing after unavailable men and rejecting everyone else, then maybe, just maybe, like Charlie Sheen says in Ferris Bueller’s Day Off “The problem is you.” Maybe it’s time to reevaluate that internal checklist you’ve got, and take a good hard look at what attracts you to people, whether what you find yourself drawn to is actually keeping you from finding what you want, and if so why.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
10 
0
D. Yes I fully agree. The same goes with men as well. Look–there are beautiful men and women out there–we all know. However, when they open their mouths–the truth comes out? They may be great to look at–and they may be great in between the sheets. However, when it comes to “relating” and relationships – and commitment–they fail miserably. Why? Because looks don’t and will never equate or compensate for communication ability, the ability to care and be cared for, integrity, maturity level, and a host of other qualities that are intangible and qualities one can’t SEE straight away–you can bottle this stuff folks. Some have it–some don’t. I have said this one too many times…the perfect person may be standing right in front of you–everyday—they may not be blessed with the most eye-popping DNA! But they are also not terrible looking…and they redeeming qualities that allow them to be great companions, parenthood/relationship and marriage-material. Which is why–ladies–when you see a very attractive man walk down the street–with a below-average looking woman–don’t scratch your head and wonder. She probably has a lot to offer – behind that curtain. Not everything you see–is what you get folks. Not saying to deny ourselves someone we can find attractive…but you need to take other factors into consideration–that is IF–you are looking for a serious, long-term partner. If not–go ahead – play and target the people that appeal to you on a more primal and surface level. It won’t matter–since it’s just for visual pleasure.
Like or Dislike:
4 
2
I meant to say – you “Can’t” bottle these things
Like or Dislike:
1 
1
I can only offer a straight guy’s perspective but it seems to me that the vast majority of men are not even marginally “attractive” –in that they turn heads, regularly draw female flattery or flirting, and so on. Even in major cities like NYC, Boston or LA, I do a quick double-take when I see those kinds of guys, because they seem rare to me (although I do have one best friend who is absolutely a male “9” and draws that kind of attention all the time).
Most men’s bodies and faces seem unshapely, hairy and built for utilitarian purposes: labor, war, foraging, and so on. I think as a woman it’d be difficult to find a man who was truly pleasing to look at, especially from the start. Then, on top of that, we men have a lot of unattractive habits: we’re messy, sloppy and sex-crazed. We toss socks on the floor, chug beer, shout in stadiums, and so
on.
I imagine that as a woman you’ve got to somehow get past all of that and either be attracted to the man’s character or utilitarian aspects (provider, comforter, potential father/husband). Or you can hold out for an exceptional man who is attractive (in the broad sense), successful, tall, etc.. Or you can be alone. None of the choices are better than the other, as long as everyone knows what’s
going on.
(And yes, I would definitely include myself in the “conventionally unattractive” male category, so I don’t kid myself that when I’m out on a date the woman is looking at me and seeing Jamie Foxx. But I would never ask a woman like India to “force/brainwash herself” to like a regular guy like me. She’s right in that it wouldn’t be good for either of us. This is a free country so she’s probably best off chasing her ideal guy.)
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
14 
1
I’m probably no prettier then you, but take another look at women.
Now that I’m past the age of reproductive urgency, women young and old look to me to be no better physical specimens then men on the whole.
For every hairy male you can find a saggy woman, for every beer gut there’s a pair of saddle bags. And women are plenty sloppy and messy too.
Not to mention weird toenail polish colors, and waist rolls exploding out between the winter halter-tops and the low-rider tights.
But I gross myself out.
Like or Dislike:
0 
4
Joey, would you consider a trans woman? Many do not have the flaws you mention above.
Like or Dislike:
0 
2
“The problem isn’t that you ladies can’t find someone that you’re attracted to. The problem is that you’re attracted to men who have an abundance of options”
Moxie, you make some very good comments when read in isolation. However, I think most women reading red pill blogs know they’re never going to get the top 5% of men, and set their sights on an average man that they can find attraction and happiness with.
You also say in another post:
“Welcome to Dating 2.0, where even the uggos have more options than the single woman over 35.”
So, when average men, and the men you call “uggos” have more options, and aren’t following through with dates and commitment, where does that leave the woman over 35?
Like or Dislike:
5 
0
I never said settle. But be realistic. It seems that a lot of people nowadays have unrealistic expectations not just of how dating/romance/marriage (women in this part) should go but life in general. There are always tradeoffs. The women that don’t like how their love lives are never seem to stop and think back on how they got to that point. Most of the time they seem to blame men , all men. Never seems to be their fault. The choices they made never had to do with the outcome they got. To compound the problem they then advise younger girls to make the same missteps they made.
I was just pointing out that 99.9999999% of people can’t have it all. My advice to younger people (men and women) is to think where you want to be at 30, 40, 50 & 60 years of age. Believe, hope, strive but also be realistic. Don’t think that being a woman in your 20’s that is solely focused on her career is going to lead to being a marriage & kids in her early 30’s. Your early to mid 20’s are when you need to be finding a nice/attractive man to marry. Be realistic about your league, find someone in it that you are personally attractive to, that is stable and reliable (don’t have one night stands).
Now, if you don’t want marriage or kids, then map out that future. It is perfectly acceptable to not want that kind of life. Just don’t complain about not having it in 15 years.
Hot debate. What do you think?
10 
2
In a nutshell for too many of these women the truth is simple “If you were as hot as you think you are you’d be married by now.”
Hot debate. What do you think?
6 
5
I am actually very realistic – the marriages people talk women into may not be that great. The number of married women that I know who whine and complain endlessly about their marriages that are devoid of love. Most of them never loved their husbands but married out of fear. When they turned 30, the world told them they are valueless as women and past their expiration date “you will die alone.” They panicked and married the next “nice” guy they met. It is not fair for their husbands too. Marriage take a great deal of sacrifice – particular for the women today who are at once supporting the kids financially and cooking them dinner and have to have energy to be romantic wirh their partner at this end of the say. Make you marry some you want enough to make those sacrifices for. Just because a man is “nice” and available does not mean you should and want to date him or marry him.
Hot debate. What do you think?
3 
8
Well jesus christ, if those are the only kinds of marriages you hear about, the no wonder you’re only ever holding out for prince charming and refusing to settle. But understand that all that means is that the examples you have of marriage are actually just examples of SHITTY marriages.
Do you know any women in happy marriages where there’s a pretty fair balance between who does what domestically? Like, where the husband does the cooking and she does the cleaning? Or vice versa? Like, where they actually both love each other, even though they got married in their late 20s or early 30s? Or is pretty much everyone around you just in bitter, miserable marriages? If it’s the latter, maybe start surrounding yourself with people who are actually, you know, not abjectly miserable, and you’ll start to get past the fear of winding up just like them if you allow yourself to get close to someone.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
10 
0
Why does it bother you so much that some women may prefer to be single? What do you get so angry that some people may see an alternative path than your traditional model? You do realize that single people can have deep and initimate relationps, and some married people barely speak to each other.
One in two marriages fail, and the 50 percent that remain married, who many of them may be unhappy? ?
Hot debate. What do you think?
3 
7
Why do you assume I’m angry? Why do you assume it bothers me that women might not want to get married? Why do you put words in my mouth? Is it because it’s easier to do that than to actually address the points I make?
Neither of your assumptions is accurate. If someone wants to not get married, whatever. More power to ‘em. If someone wants to be in a serious relationship, super. Go for it. If someone wants to live in a fortress of solitude, awesome. Rock on. Different strokes for different folks. As long as they’re making a conscious decision, and living with the consequences.
As for me being mad, I’m not. Exasperated, maybe, but not mad. And I’m not even really exasperated with you, so much as I’m exasperated by the particular mindset and attitudes you seem to represent. You aren’t unique in your approach to this. I’ve encountered it before both first- and second-hand. It’s tiresome to repeatedly encounter it and, I’ll admit, a little disappointed. When I was younger, I imagined that people would generally have their shit together by the time we all hit somewhere between late-20s and mid-30s. A naive view, apparently, but what can I say? It’s disappointing to repeatedly encounter folks who prove that view incorrect.
Now, I’m making an assumption here that you’re the woman who wrote the blog post on XOJane, since you both use the same name. If that’s incorrect, my apologies. But, assuming that to be the case, you seem to want entirely disparate things and haven’t figured out how to reconcile them. You claim to want something serious (not necessarily marriage, but a serious, loving relationship), but your actions belie the claim. If you want something serious, why chase after unavailable guys while dismissing the rest? You pine over “what if” with a guy you know is wrong for you, but are perfectly capable of dismissing a whole range of other guys — apparently never wondering “What if” one of those guys might have actually been able to make you happy. To me, that suggests that you don’t actually want to find something real and serious; instead, you’re chasing a fantasy.
Now, if all you’re doing is sabotaging yourself, well, go for it. In the last analysis, it doesn’t really make a difference in my life. But it’s still disappointing to see, and it’s a pain in the ass in my own dating experiences to have to filter for this stuff (particularly because it seems so common these days). But hey, I guess if you’re happy telling yourself “Some day my prince will come,” knock yourself out.
Like or Dislike:
6 
0
And at this point, before I risk Moxie’s ire, I’m just gonna bow out of this discussion.
Like or Dislike:
0 
3
D., you need to take a break too. You’ve made your point. I;m tired of saying this.
Like or Dislike:
3 
1
It does not bother me one bit if a woman wants to remain single. But this whole thing was about women that state that they want a relationship/marriage/kids. If you like being single, be single. Just don’t complain about it or say you are single because you can’t find a man that meets your expectations. DON’T get married just so you can say you are married. DON’T get married to just not be lonely. DON’T get married just because you want kids. DON’T get married if the only person you think about is you.
Marriage is hard work!!!! I can’t imagine marry someone that I was not attracted to. That is in my opinion, one of the stupidist thing I have ever heard of. If you aren’t attracted to someone then don’t get married. It is usually expected that marriage means sex. Unless not having sex is REALLY discussed beforehand, one partner is usually going to want it.
Like or Dislike:
9 
0
Marriage is hard work!
Both of my exes said that a lot. Funny, to me it sounds like “you should be what I want.”
Marriage is hard work, if by hard work you mean;
– listening and trying to understand
– accommodating things you don’t like
– changing the way you deal with things
and all of those things fall under the heading of “being a grown up.”
I’ve always bristled at the “hard work” cliche, probably because it was a pretty blatant attempt at framing the disagreement as being not about her desires, but rather as a socially accepted standard of behavior that we must all live up to.
Doesn’t “relationships are hard work” sound more defensible then “I want you to do what I want?” And isn’t a man more likely to do what she wants when he thinks he’s doing what every guy does?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
It’s actually more complicated than anyone might care to believe here when it comes to choices we make:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/the-irrational-consumer-why-economics-is-dead-wrong-about-how-we-make-choices/267255/
But there’s ways of trying to strengthen your hand and ‘better the odds’ at NOT being duped or ‘severely disappointed’. Most of that comes from a focus and attention to the Character of the person you desire. Not just the ‘yummy outside’ or the ‘thick stick’ they’re carrying in their pants. Really ladies? And everyone mocks the guys for going ga-ga over the ta-ta’s & T&A? The article and commentary from Xo Jane was pretty abysmal. Just damn depressing. If you’re looking for a ‘good time’, go to it. Hop right on it. Tape it, sell it. Who cares? If you’re looking to start a family with someone or raise some kids in a secure household of some sort? Big dicks just normally should not enter into it much. (Yet their mentioned universally seemingly).
If you want to actually have some kids of your own? Know that this really needs to be done hopefully before 40, and most helpfully before age 35 to be more likely to conceive healthy kids. And yet almost everywhere these choices are now defined by the media by in large. What Actors or Models look like now instead of the people around you. We’ve got wildly outlandish expectations, and want our wish fulfillments to come true. They might. Just not in time. Waiting too long ‘for the perfect’ is delusional. ‘Settling’ for the obviously ‘sub-optimal’ on too many dimensions will naturally lead to more likely sub optimal results. There’s a happy medium there someplace, but perhaps it may require some basic math. And we know how almost everyone just sucks at math, right? Trying to add up the rational ‘pluses & minuses’ is something that’s almost never done. We fall in love with the pretty faces with the big dicks and/or the big tits/butts.Then imagine that they’re the best choices. Sometimes we might get lucky. Much of the time, we just get some happy and memorable times with some swell body parts, & an ambivalent & perhaps ‘mediocre’ partner for a limited number of years or ‘encounters’. And that’s it. End of story. ‘I got some decent kids off of the jerk/idiot/cheater/b*tch’ might be the better part of the bargain at the end of the day. Believe it or not! Cheers, ‘VJ’
Like or Dislike:
5 
0
Nice link VJ. I’ve always thought “economic man” was a silly myth.
Economists suffer from physics envy.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
I agree that there are very few worthwhile men on dating websites but I have not had the problem of having to “compete” for a man. I can scroll through the entire database of profiles and all I find are guys who are about a 4 on a scale of 0-10 in physical attractiveness and a slew of profiles that all say the same thing—-CLICHES! It is rare that I can even find someone worth writing. When I do, I end up meeting him only to find he’s not nearly as attractive as his photos and that we just have no chemistry whatsoever (probably because this was hard to assess using only his cliche-filled profile). Online dating is a great place to meet Mr. Average (or Mr. Sport Dater—and those are easy to identify by their profiles). I think above-average guys must not use it as a venue and probably are meeting people the old fashioned way.
Hot debate. What do you think?
5 
14
Thank you, sheshe! You have provided a perfect example of exactly what Moxie was writing about. I have a feeling that Mr. Average and Mr. Sport Dater have dodged a bullet when you avoid them. What, pray tell, makes you think that Mr. Above-Average–who has lots of options with which you will compete–will find you worthwhile?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
14 
4
sheshe: online dating is “time-consuming”, and unpredictable at best…why? Because ANYONE can be ANYONE on the internet. Too much anonymity. Face to face encounters are best. For those who are not afraid to step away from their monitors…and show their real selves! rather than advertise who they would want to be…and email or text endlessly. A busy person doesn’t have time for that nonsense.
Hot debate. What do you think?
4 
7
It’s great that you’re apparently a social butterfly that people naturally gravitate to. Some of us, however, either don’t have the best luck getting dates from face-to-face encounters or like to have the online dating thing set up as a back-up plan. And, for the record, some people don’t always show their real selves in offline meetings, either.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
12 
0
Matt…never claimed to be a social butterfly. But I guess I am inclined to just smile–when someone looks my way–why frown. Why go out to a social event if they are not going to be social, warm and welcoming? Smile–it’s contagious. Try it. And sure…people don’t “gravitate to” me…doesn’t matter…I am out with friends, having fun…and it’s sure easier to meet face to face – possibly – with just one person – as opposed to typing on some monitor back and forth. “Hi, how are”? “Great-how are you”? How are the parents? – totally absurd…and impersonal. When I said “they show their real selves”…I meant – you see visually–who you are talking…obviously–getting to see who someone really is – character-wise takes time…lot’s of time – AND attention. It requires great listening skills too. Anything worthwhile requires time, patience and effort. Getting to know someone is no exception;.
Like or Dislike:
2 
4
Again, I’ll ask you to not reply to every single comment. Please. Take a break.
Like or Dislike:
4 
3
Why have a blog? Geez.
Like or Dislike:
2 
5
I have a blog so that people can share ideas. You responding to every comment, essentially repeating yourself over and over and over again with your fortune cookie “advice” does nothing to facilitate the discussion. It just clogs up the thread.
Like or Dislike:
8 
1
Done. nasty nasty. Figured I was sharing my ideas. And I did notice — many others on here – doing the same thing. And I don’t believe I have repeated myself – my reply had to do with being “social” in a face-to-face environment–as opposed to behind a monitor. Will not post anymore.
Like or Dislike:
0 
6
1) Eliza, sometimes smiling and being pleasant is not enough. Trust me.
2) You don’t have time for “online dating nonsense”, but you apparently have plenty of time to comment here. Hmmm….
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
12 
0
Of course you don’t have a problem competing for a man; you have a problem competing for a good looking successful man. Hence this entire topic. And clearly you are not giving enough guys even a chance because they are oh so average with cliché profiles. You have set your sites on the top tear men, and those are not so common, with most of them being the sport daters. You sound just like one of those girls from that other blog, did you get lost or something?
Like or Dislike:
5 
2
This whole issue…I don’t think it is exclusive to online dating (I’ve never done it), Manhattan or even men or women. It appears to me that throughout time human beings all over the world have naturally adapted and/or exploited their current relationship situations whatever they were. The hardest trick is to take an honest inventory of ourselves of who and what we are as well as what we want or expect from a partner. That’s when happiness in our relationships becomes a true possibility.
For example, some people refuse to settle for anything less than their complete checklist of priorities. If they don’t find all of that they”ll eventually have to decide between staying single or ‘settling’ (I prefer the phrase ‘coming to our senses’). Typically, most of us come to our senses if we are truly in love or if the other priorities on our checklists for our ideal partner are off the charts. I know because this is where I am in my life now.
Like or Dislike:
2 
1
I think everyone should listen to DOC LOVE. he interviewed thousands of woman and he knows how to interact with woman. He as a guy understands men to begin with. plus he understands the mind of a woman.
Hot debate. What do you think?
0 
10
Anyone that knows anything about the mind of women knows that you can’t learn anything accurate about the mind of women by interviewing them.
Hot debate. What do you think?
11 
5
Middlebrow dismissal. You really think that someone who’s interviewed thousands of women can’t learn anything about them? Anything?
Like or Dislike:
3 
3
Calling a comment a “middlebrow dismissal” is, itself, considered a middlebrow dismissal. At least according to the latest lietrature.
But, you’re right. Its wrong to dismiss the comments of PUA trolls. But sometimes its fun, even for me, to roll in the mud with you Neandertals.
I won’t be commenting anymore. You won’t have DMN to kick around anymore.
Adieu.
Farewell.
Last word.
Hot debate. What do you think?
6 
4
The mere idea of “kicking around driving me nutes” is causing great metaphorical chaos in the universe.
But if Ivan isn’t trolling for hits for “Doctor Loooove,” then I’m not a Frenchman stuck in the body of a Detroit street thug.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
I don’t usually comment, but I find this comment very interesting because of what it reveals about how women think on a subconscious level… “Right now, the men have the upper hand. They have enough options to keep them comfortable for the foreseeable future. ”
Men have the upper hand? It is only the top percentage of men who have the upper hand. The average man doesn’t really have much of an upper hand. But it seems that when women think about “men” they automatically default to lucky few that most women want. Not disputing the article at all – I think that it is very insightful. Just pointing out how ingrained this is to the point that even a female writer completely aware of it… still accepts it on some level.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0