If there is anything that can make a woman chum to hungry male sharks, it’s saying this:
“I’m not going to sleep with you on the first date because I really like you.”
This does not compute in the mind’s of most men. It’s one thing to internally decide that you’re not going to sleep with someone yet. It’s entirely another to vocalize that particular thought process. Once a woman does that she has almost certainly sealed her fate.
The implication of the statement is quite clear. “I just need to get past the first date so you don’t think I’m a slut.” By uttering this statement you are telling the man that you’re totally going to have sex with him. Like, totally. Just not that night. Most men know that that means second date sex is almost a given. So they’ll wait a couple days. It won’t kill them. Only the men who never get laid, only want to get laid or guys with really fragile egos will bail completely. So, in a sense, this can be a decent filter. But it’s no where near fool proof. The guys who wait likely have options anyway, which is why holding off one more date for a handy won’t break them.
The greater issue with a statement like this is what it reveals about the woman’s history and pathology. A comment like this completely tears down any mystique the woman may have built. With that one sentence she’s telling a man that she dates by other people’s rules, probably is too dependent on the validation of her girlfriends and made some bad choices.
As I read this article this morning I was reminded of the importance of mystique. In Part 1 of the story, the author took the guy back to her apartment and started to hook up with him. When he reached for the top button of her pants she stopped him and said that if she didn’t think she could date him she’d totally have sex with him.
When he tried to unbutton my pants, I stopped him and said, “I’m not going to fuck you after a fucking writing advice non-date,” I said, but I totally wanted to. But I didn’t. Isn’t that a nice story.
“If I didn’t think we could actually date, I would probably fuck you,” I added, because that makes sense.
Physically it felt different than it’s felt in a while. I didn’t want to play any stupid role or act out any bullshit, I just liked him. Like in an I-could-see-myself-dating-this-dude way.
If the goal is to make guys think “you aren’t like that” then telling a guy you aren’t like that defeats the purpose of making the statement in the first place. After dating for a little while men know to interpret this declaration as, “I’m totally going to sleep with you by date 3. Just be patient.”
And with that, any power the woman thought she had disappears. She also makes herself vulnerable because, by admitting to this, she’s telling the guy that she’s afraid he’ll judge her or pump and dump her. While admitting to fears and insecurities can help build and enhance intimacy, this is the kind of vulnerability that makes you a mark.
To be clear, because I know many women who read this take these sort of posts as encouragement to have sex on the first date, it’s not the decision not to have sex that is the problem. The problem is verbalizing and justifying your decision. By doing so, a woman relinquishes any control she may have had.
Interesting. The quoted portions from the article conforms to a theory I had that many women will more readily sleep with a guy with whom they see zero future than they will with a guy who has genuine potential. In my experience, that’s been because they “don’t want to get hurt…” There seems to be a lot loaded into that “I don’t want to get hurt…” statement.
First, it suggests that the girl either likes the guy or likes the idea of the guy liking her as more than just someone to sleep with. In my experience, it’s often not as binary a view of the woman. I can like someone and like spending time with her outside of the bedroom, want to sleep with her…and still not see long-term potential. Does that mean I “Just want sex”?
There’s also the suggestion that if the girl DIDN’T like the guy, she’d be happy to have a casual fling. I understand where this comes from — the notion that it’s easier to emotionally detach from someone in whom you have a purely physical interest. But it’s also a bit hypocritical when guys are demonized for this same behavior. (And given that this discussion springs from an XOJane article, I can only guess that the author of the article would be pissed if she figured out that the guy she viewed as just a piece of ass also viewed her the same way, but that’s a separate issue…)
Lastly, there seems to be this unspoken offloading of responsibility from that point forward. The girl says she doesn’t want to get hurt, so now if the guy says “Let’s go for it anyway,” the implication is that there must be a future to this. This strikes me as rather unfair (not that fairness comes into play in dating, of course…). The girl saying “I don’t want to get hurt…” seems to be seeking reassurance that the guy will maintain his interest….although there’s no discussion of how long that’d be for, and one gets the sense that, in many cases, if the guy loses interest before she does, he’s a player and a cad, whereas if she loses interest before him, no harm/no foul.
Ultimately, I think this is another reason why making such a statement in the moment (e.g., “I like you too much to sleep with you,” “I want to but I don’t want to get hurt,” etc.) is a bad idea. It fails the “own your shit” test. If she’s telling the guy this, particularly in search of some kind of reassurance, that’s not owning your shit; it’s offloading responsibility for her own happiness and management of expectations onto the guy, and forcing him into the role of “Demon” (if he sleeps with her and loses interest) or “Prince” (if he virtuously holds off to protect her feelings). All of this, by the way, places the woman in question in the role of some passive damsel, which frankly is a load of shit.
The bottom line is this: it is EVERYONE’S (man or woman) own responsibility to manage their own happiness and expectations in dating and sex. When you sleep with someone, you should always do so recognizing the risks involved, including the emotional ones. There are no guarantees, and reassurances are meaningless until someone’s backing them up with action.
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a theory I had that many women will more readily sleep with a guy with whom they see zero future than they will with a guy who has genuine potential.
Theory ? My ex as much as told me that if I hadn’t been a smoker and hence “out of the question,” that she never would have relaxed enough to just have some fun with me, which led to our dating and eventual marriage.
When a woman finds the perfect guy, she has to be sure to be perfect herself, and perfect girls don’t have sex too soon.
( never mind the “Sex in the City” delusions that humans are past all that )
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Women generally consider a guy to be a villain when he pursues sleeping with a woman, knowing fully well she has zero chance of being a part of his life, all the while she has hopes of being a part of his life. And women are right. It is selfish and manipulative.
Similarly men consider women to be manipulative when a hardcore conscious decision is made to withhold sex, for whatever reason, as she continues to have him invest in her. Men don’t mind the typical caution that just happens. It’s the manipulative behavior they despise. I often say that when women put out that type of manipulative behavior, they should be the last to complain about guys being manipulative. However, these very women are often the first to complain about the villainy of men.
Now let’s get back to that statement, “I Won’t Sleep With You Because I Like You.” Any woman that makes that statement to a man, underestimates men. He is left with the thought in his head that she has slept with guys fairly quickly that she didn’t like. Men view getting sex as a reward. That is never going to change. So this guy will have a hard time rationalizing that you, the woman will give it away to the jerk but put him on ice because he is nice.
He is now in a place he doesn’t like. He can become not so nice. He can take a walk. Or he can wait his turn, then punish you for deliberately making him wait when you just gave it away to a jerk. It is often the reason most guys stay away from being so nice in the first place, and we are seeing such a proliferation of the PUA stuff.
I believe these things should happen organically. There are indeed situations where guys are just not skillful in building sufficient attraction, and indeed women get a pass on holding off sex, no matter how much he is a wonderful man and she likes him. However that is an entirely a different matter from deliberately blue-balling.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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“It’s one thing to internally decide that you’re not going to sleep with someone yet. It’s entirely another to vocalize that particular thought process.”
Not to be nitpicky but its not the vocalization of the thought process that’s the issue, its that th alleged “thought process” is manifestly nonsensical and not credible. For example, if she said “I’m not going to sleep with you tonight because I met you literally two hours ago and I’m not comfortable having your cock in my mouth just yet” I would probably say “yes, that makes sense.”
This whole “I’m easy for guys I don’t really like but will wait for guys I do” is something some women picked up from some 90′s “plaid” era emo romcom that virtually no woman ever practices in real life. So rare in fact that men can safely ignore it as a statement of a woman’s actual thought process. For the most part, women sleep with guys they like and are attracted to and interested in and don’t sleep with guys that they don’t really like or care about. Bet on that. It doesn’t matter what they tell you, especially after the fact. Stop believing the bullshit.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Couldn’t disagree more. I don’t concern myself with the whys or internal thought processes, but if you intend on sleeping with a woman without a lot of song or dance, you must do it before she sees a future with you. As soon as she starts thinking you are relationship material, she will worry about being seen as “Too easy”.
I, unfortunately, know plenty of guys agree. I personally do not agree, but I can’t really find fault with the notion that if you are looking for a relationship with a man you don’t know too much about, first or second date sex is a poor play from a probability standpoint.
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“nonsensical and not credible” — I think that hits the nail on the head, actually.
I’m not a huge fan of women trying to “exercise power over me” by manipulating me with respect to sex, so I will probably suss out if they really WANT to have sex but are limiting themselves for some artificial reason, no matter what they say.
That’s why this sentence from Moxie really resonated with me:
“With that one sentence she’s telling a man that she dates by other people’s rules, probably is too dependent on the validation of her girlfriends and made some bad choices.”
It’s exactly that; it’s about the living by some artificial set of rules (which is probably more of a manifestation of a complex or psychosis rather than a cogent philosophy or set of ethical mores), rather than just going with the flow of what feels right in the situation and given where you are in your life.
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I think as a general rule, women should read Mandy’s articles and do just the opposite.
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Moxie, I think you are missing the main take away from the male perspective.
All I hear when a women says this to me is “I’ve slept with all sorts of scumbags for fun, but I’m going to make you jump through hoops”
No thanks. I walk when I hear this, or feel this is the game the women is playing. It’s insulting. The implication is that those guys were sexually irresistible, and you are not.
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Putting yourself in someone else’s shoes and actually viewing things from their perspective (as opposed to “Well what would I think if I said that to me,” which is not at all the same thing) is a skill I find….lacking in many people.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I understand what she is intending to say and why she is saying it, but I stand by my statement on what it means and what it reveals to me about her past behavior, mindset, and her opinion of me. Could you be more clear on what part you think I don’t understand, as it would take a dissertation to try to dissect every angle here.
If a man said to a woman “I’m glad you are not as materialistic and superficial as the bitches I usually date. I usually end up having to get all dressed up and take them out to per se, and plan hot air baloon dates. I’m glad we can have a good time just chilling in PJ’s, watching netflix and eating pizza every night since you are so cool”, what do you think a reasonable woman would take away from that?
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Actually, I was agreeing with you. The quotes from the article, to me, suggest someone who lacks that ability. For example, a woman who says “I don’t want to sleep with you because I like you,” when she’d sleep with some douchebag she doesn’t particularly like just because he’s hot may think that she’s telling you she values you as a person, respects you as more than just a piece of ass, etc. All stuff she would want to hear, so she assumes you’d want to hear it. Yet she lacks the ability to place herself in your shoes and recognize that what you hear is “That douchebag is hotter than you.” Or at least she lacks the ability to recognize that’s PART of what you’ll hear.
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Agreed! It’s a sign that the individual in question lacks interpersonal intelligence and is possibly a bit emotionally stunted as well. Perhaps I’m biased. This kind of question reminds me of the attitudes of so many awful dating bloggers–particularly the ones from the STFU dating bloggers post (and silly melodrama) comes to mind.
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is a skill I find….lacking in many people.
Narcissism is our natural state.
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Yes, more’s the pity.
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“It’s insulting. The implication is that those guys were sexually irresistible, and you are not.”
Yes, that is absolutely the implication. The logical implication. Yet, you don’t want to believe that you’re not irresistible so you choose instead to believe this fantasy that women sleep with guys they don’t really like. What evidence do you have to support this?
I’ll give you mine, obviously circumstantial because I can’t read anyone’s mind. But, I’m relationship material. I can support with evidence that women say they want to be in a relationship with me and get kinda upset when I break up with them. These women all have sex with me in fairly near term because I don’t tolerate the wait game. So, ergo, I have no evidence that women withhold sex based on their desire to be in a relationship. Of course, I will never know why a women chooses NOT to have sex with me. But, I can’t imagine leaping to the conclusion that its because I’m just THAT awesome, even if she tells me so. More likely she’s not into me.
Make sense? So anyway, what’s your evidence? Shit women say?
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When you say “near term” do you mean second date or later? The post was about the first date. May seem like semantics, but in the context of this discussion it is literally a difference of 100% (two compared to one)
Personally I think you’re just bragging about how irresistible you are.
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Here’s the thesis. Women who have sex with a man on a first date….. want to be in a relationship with that man. They don’t have sex otherwise. We are talking about real women. They don’t have sex, just for sex. They don’t need to. They have sex because they’re hoping it will lead to something other than sex. Unless, of course, it doesn’t work out and then, suddenly, it was their choice to be casual. They “knew”the guy wasn’;t serious. They didn’t want more. Sure. BULLSHIT. Any man that doesn’t understand this, simply does not understand what motivates women. I don’t care how much PUA crap he sells.
I do try to depersonalize my comments but it would take me hours to craft these posts generically so sometimes I say fuck it and just make it about me.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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They don’t have sex, just for sex.
True and extremely politically incorrect. Women may enjoy sex itself to varying degrees, but sex is so much more enjoyable for the power over men it can provide.
If you play your cards right.
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And before women get pissed at me for seeming to dis them as a group
That power over men is pretty damn useful to all of us if it can get him to protect and provide for those critical nine months and a few years after.
Sex. It’s really about making babies.
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@DMN,
Yes, shit women say, but also shit women do. Like, you’re half naked, messing around, and suddenly she’s saying “I don’t want to take this too far tonight because I like you too much” (or something to that effect, if not those exact words). So, how would you interpret that?
She’s clearly physically attracted to you, else she wouldn’t be fooling around with you in the first place. If she wasn’t that into you, you’d get a polite kiss goodnight (maybe) and sent on your way. Instead, you’re lying on somebody’s bed or couch or whatever. So, there you both are, and she’s clearly turned on in the moment, based on her behavior. But she’s telling you she likes you too much to sleep with you….because she’s not that into you? She thinks your hot enough to to dry hump but not to follow through? She thinks you’re interesting enough to take her shirt off in front of, but not to sleep with? She thinks you’re charming enough to get herself worked up and horny, but not enough to actually experience in sexual release with you? I’ve never made any claims to PUA-level insight (and why would I want to?) into women, but that shit don’t make no sense.
Now, it may be that you’re talking about a verbal brushoff at the end of the evening, with little to no physical contact, in which case I’d agree — not that into you. And it may be that the age demographic in which you date or have recently dated really is past a lot of this crap, so you don’t see it. I find I see it a LOT less these days than I did when I used to date women in their early to mid-20s (and occasionally late 20s).
In that age bracket (or people who are older but are still in that mindset), I think you do see women who’ll sleep with a guy casually whom they aren’t really into — because it’s easier to “not get hurt” if he isn’t into them. It’s easier to say “Whatever. He was a (hot) douche anyway. I don’t care that he never called me back.” By contrast, a guy that they’d want to like them — someone who’s relationship material — is tougher to bounce back from if he ends up not being that into her and sleeping with her casually.
As I’ve gotten older and dated women who are older, I find it more common that a woman will simply turn down the douchebag AND the relationship material early on, because sex with the douchebag isn’t really that interesting anymore (she’s done that already in her mid-20s), and she would rather take it slower with ANY guy until she thinks there’s more of a connection. And she’s more likely to be diplomatic enough to say “Not tonight” than “I like you too much to fuck you.”
Again, all this is just based on my own observations and from talking to female friends around my age (35) and younger. I don’t claim to have total insight into all women.
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“Yes, shit women say, but also shit women do. Like, you’re half naked, messing around, and suddenly she’s saying “I don’t want to take this too far tonight because I like you too much” (or something to that effect, if not those exact words). So, how would you interpret that
Briefly, forget what she says. I don’t disagree that women worry about having sex “too soon.” And, they will make you wait for what I think are silly reasons. But, the assertion being made is that, while making YOU wait, she’s having first date sex with other guys who she doesn’t care about. That is the part I think is just sillyness. Most likely she is making other guys wait too. It’s just not that complicated.
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In fairness, I suppose it’s presumptuous to assume that the specific woman saying “I don’t want to sleep with you until you jump through hoops” is removing said hoops for hot douchebags. However, I do have female friends who’ve confirmed that they have done just that in the past, particularly when they were younger. They’ve since outgrown such behavior and have largely given up on casual sex across the board (thus, with any man, they only sleep with him when things don’t seem casual), but they’ve admitted that in the past, they’d be more likely to sleep with a guy who was just some throwaway hot dude with no potential than a guy where they’d take it to heart if he rejected them or only was into them for sex.
Is it silly? Sure, and they admit that as well, but it was a phase they went through. So, it’s not as if this phenomenon doesn’t happen, but I suspect that it happens a lot less with women in their late 20s and up.
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Disagree. Many women have a selective accounting method. There’s the guys she’s slept with, and then there are the ones that “don’t count” — because she was drunk, or on spring break, or there was only partial penetration in the bathroom at a club etc.
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I agree. If a woman says this, it is a guarantee she’s had sex with many, many guys before you. So by trying (in her mind) to make it look like she isn’t a slut, she ironically proves that she is a slut.
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Or at least she’s been thinking about having sex with guys she doesn’t like.
IOW, you’re wrong. It’s doesn’t prove a damn thing, except that she’s not very savvy.
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There is an old saying that people hear what they need to hear, and it’s often not you think you are saying, The loaded statement in question is very much an example. Sometimes we have to really stop and think about what we put out there. I believe any statement that evokes any comparison, is such a statement. You don’t even have to make an actual comparison.
Examples of statements that are inappropriate are:
I am used to guys treating me nicely
My kids come first
I usually contribute to dates (All while the guy is paying and she hasn’t offered. Now that makes a guy feel like a schmuck)
When I really like a guy, I like to take things slowly
These types of things shouldn’t even be done in one’s head, if someone is giving the next person a genuine chance. To take it to the point of actually saying it, is insulting and assumes some upper hand in a situation where equity is required.
And that hits the nail on the head. The assumption of having the upper hand is what drives this type of stupidity. This upper hand also leads into the overt testing of men which just generally pisses most men off. In a good relationship, no one should have much of an upper hand. Neither party is really happy with that situation. People often default to trying to get the upper hand, because they have been burnt so much in the past, and imagine the upper hand is a way to avoid future disappointment. However, that type of thinking only ensures unhappiness.
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“I’m not going to sleep with you on the first date because I really like you.”
I’ve had woman say to me “not tonight” on a first date, but I’ve never had anyone say to me–ever–I’m not going to sleep with you on the first date because I like you.
I understand making a guy wait because there’s relationship potential happens, I’ve just never heard it verbalized, though I’m not surprised that Mandy would tell her guy that she would fuck him if he weren’t dating material (it’s one of the reasons she is the trainwreck she is). I do agree, however, that it’s a losing strategy for a woman because now the guy knows he’s gonna get some eventually. It’s always a good sign when a woman mentions sex in any way on a first date…well except “I wouldn’t have sex with you if you were the last man on Earth”
And I agree with HammersAndNails that the game-playing of “I didn’t make the others wait, but you have potential, so no nookie for you until you prove yourself and I show I’m not that easy” is incredibly insulting.
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Moxie’s list of why guys might bail when they hear this is incomplete. Relationship-minded guys will be turned off by this morally perverse double standard. She thinks she’s complimenting him on being a good relationship prospect, but in the process she’s revealing herself to be less of a relationship prospect. She doesn’t even have the wisdom to be embarrassed about feeling this way about men.
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I agree with you 100%! No man wants to the chump who has to jump through hoops and spend money taking a woman out on a date who has had first date sex with lots of men before him.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Man, it’s like you just got done with reading a ton of Roissy, ( or Chataeu, or Heartiste or whatever puerile moniker of the month he’s using now. )
Not saying you’re wrong on this one point.
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No, but this seems like common sense. If a woman brings up the topic of sex when you on on your first date, even if it is to say it isn’t going to happen, then it is practically a guarantee she has done it many times in the past. Why should you be treated worse than the men she dated before you?
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I heard this line a lot….in high school….from all the sluts! Look, by getting you to even go on a date a guy is 50% of the way to getting laid. That doesn’t mean the reaming 50% of the journey is easier than the first 50%, it’s not. But the finish line is in sight, that’s for sure. Saying this ensures the rest of the journey will be harder….for no good reason.
The other thing this statement says to a guy is, “Beware! Control Freak!”
Next, please.
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“I heard this line a lot….in high school….from all the sluts!”
Bingo! It belies a lack of self confidence and immaturity. “The lady doth protest too much”…
“Look, by getting you to even go on a date a guy is 50% of the way to getting laid. That doesn’t mean the reaming 50% of the journey is easier than the first 50%”
Reaming? Freudian slip, I hope?
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Ha! Remaining…..nice catch……$&@?!$&…..iPad keyboard.
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