A recent comment posted in response to this column.
I think that the response was pretty on spot on some things, but also a little bit in denial. Nobody likes an arrogant narcissist. But that’s kind of the problem. The article assumes that “Sarah” is an arrogant narcissist. A ton of assumptions were drawn based on one little question. It’s like, they painted her as this whole character but don’t even know her. It assumes that if any woman is looking for men making that amount of money, she has to be arrogant and shallow. What if she really actually is nice? Even humble? She clearly indicated that she makes a lot already, so why would she need a man for his money? She just needs a man who can handle the fact that SHE makes a lot of money.
Did you ever think that maybe it has nothing to do with the money. I bet she didn’t “initially” want to look for guys that make that much money, but based on her past experiences, she has now come to the sad realization, that men making less money than her have a problem with that. Maybe she thought if she could remove that “issue” off the table, it might be the answer to her problems. I mean, isn’t that the whole reason she has asked for advice? And you basically just told her she is screwed… Gee that was some great advice…
But instead you label and judge her and assume she is running around telling everyone how much money she makes and where she went to school first thing out of her mouth. Gee, I don’t know her, but she must be a crap person because they ask her what she does for a living. WHAT?! That doesn’t even make sense. Most people who become interested in somebody eventually will ask those questions. So are you saying if somebody is interested, they would only want to know about your hobbies, but not want to know what life profession you chose.???
Basically, the response was just filled with a lot of assumptions that actually drill in Sarah’s main problem: That men (and the author) do not feel comfortable around, nor respect successful women and judge them for it.
And I don’t mean to offend, but the harsh reality in this modern world where women are enjoying more successful careers and making money, it is causing men to feel emasculated and resentful. The male ego is very fragile, and surprisingly more so than most men will ever admit. So if a guy suspects that you think he wouldn’t be able to bring home the bacon, they worry that they won’t meet society or your expectations, so they’d rather not even bother to bear that responsibility and go find somebody easier to impress (even if we would be impressed regardless of the amount of bacon brought home).
Women aren’t dumb. We know this, so successful women like Sarah and myself don’t throw it in a man’s face before they even get a chance to know us. But at some point they will eventually find out, and the stereotypes come flooding in and the man gets overrun by all these misguided assumptions that society has drawn. It’s almost like we are facing an uphill battle from the get go to fight these stereotypes that have been strongly ingrained.
I understand where Sarah is coming from. She worked hard to get where she is and although she may not flaunt it, she should feel very proud of her accomplishments. Men flaunt their success and get praised for it, but women must downplay their success at all times or we will be labeled narcissistic arrogant bitches. Maybe some women are, but the majority of us truly aren’t. We just need a man confident to realize that. – LJ
Let’s go back to the original question:
Question: I have been going to singles events for the past year and have found that the men are nice but that most of them are less educated and make less money than I do and that it is an issue for the men. Any recommendations on affordable ways to meet men between the ages of 35-50 in NYC who have a six or seven figure annual income and who want to have a serious relationship?
Let’s do a little deductive reasoning. My first question would be how she knows that her education level and salary are a problem for these men. She doesn’t offer any evidence to support that. I’ll then point out that she says she says she has been going to singles events in the past year and expressing a disappointment in the quality of men she meets there. She didn’t say she dated any of these men. She’s speaking strictly about men she meets at singles events. The subtext of her question is clear: she’s meeting men at singles events and, over the course of what have to be fairly brief conversations, learning what they do, what sort of degree they have and gauges their salary based on that. To reiterate: she is speaking of men she meets at singles events. So I’m genuinely curious how she surmises so quickly that these men are put off by her accomplishments. I’m also curious how she can get even a modicum of a beat on the personalities and character of these men that she meets in such a brief window of time. She’s not, of course. She’s projecting her own biases and insecurities on to the men. You’re welcome.
Conclusion: The issue of money and education are important to her. So much so that she tailors conversations around these subjects so she can discern just where the men fall on her scale. I don’t believe that it’s the problem of the men. I think that’s a convenient way to excuse her own prejudices.
The “he’s just intimidated by you” justification has been around for years, and it was manufactured by women, for women. While I have no doubt such a man exists, it seems odd to me that this one woman appears to meet so many of them.
She clearly indicated that she makes a lot already, so why would she need a man for his money?
Exactly. She makes her own money. So why does it matter whether the man makes 5 figures, 6 figures or 7? Thank you for pointing out the lack of logic in this woman’s question. Yes. Why does how much he makes matter if she makes her own? As long as he can support himself, who cares? Also curious is why this woman, who apparently makes a very good living, is looking for affordable ways to meet men. What? You mean she’s not meeting millionaires at a $35 a pop speeddating event? How strange. Unreasonable expectations, party of one please?
The male ego is very fragile, and surprisingly more so than most men will ever admit. So if a guy suspects that you think he wouldn’t be able to bring home the bacon, they worry that they won’t meet society or your expectations, so they’d rather not even bother to bear that responsibility and go find somebody easier to impress (even if we would be impressed regardless of the amount of bacon brought home).
Now this I agree with.Only you don’t appear to understand why these men bail on these women. These expectations of which you speak are the problem. What the men sense is that the woman will have a problem with their financial situation and bail on them once the smell that stink of entitlement. Men don’t hear, “I’m a lawyer” and then run away. What repels them is if they sense that the woman is doing all sorts of recon work by asking specific questions in hopes of learning the man’s salary. It’s the focus on money that turns men off. Not the fact that she has it.
It’s almost like we are facing an uphill battle from the get go to fight these stereotypes that have been strongly ingrained.
Again, I agree. But who has done the most of that programming? Women. Women are the ones repeating these completely unproven “truths” to other women. If you have any data that supports your theory, please do share. My theory? Women choose a partner that will rival those chosen by and compared to those of other women.
Maybe some women are, but the majority of us truly aren’t.
Oh, I see. So you’re more than happy making broad generalizations about men. But when it comes to stereotyping women, you admit that not all women are guilty of the thing of which they are accused. My vagina says thank you.
The consistent theme I see in comments like this and in the deluded ramblings of this woman is how it’s always the fault of the man that catches like you haven’t been snatched up. There is never a moment of concession or attrition. The other commonality is that women like you are sure to tale your passive aggressive little swipes at other women.
You know. The women who get your men.
I’ve never understood that whole notion of being intimidated about money. The closest experience I’ve had to that was when I dated a super smart woman who liked to argue. She was very sharp, and at times it challenged my ego, but on the whole I liked having someone that smart around me. She also earned more than me and was a bit of a celebrity in her niche. On the flip side, I was better at managing money and business in general, so she looked to me for help.
I think the real issue is that most women, being attracted to status, will over the long term lose attraction to a men who earn less than they do. There can be exceptions. Like if he’s a really talented artist who makes a middle income from it, or he does something uber manly like run a farm.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
14 
0
so she looked to me for help.
I think this is a key factor. When a woman is described as “successful”, that often correlates with “not needing a man”. Every man (and woman) wants to feel needed, that they’re contributing to the other person’s life and to the relationship in general. For men, this contribution has traditionally been financial. If that is taken away, what else can he contribute?
Also, many men are, on some level, expect the woman’s contribution to be having and raising their kids. When a man sees a woman with a high income (in absolute or relative terms), he may assume that she won’t be willing to give that up, so what is she going to be contributing to the relationship?
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
Indeed, she’s projecting. When there’s a income disparity, the women often have more problems with that situation than the men do:
“You want me to tell you that it will get better as you get older and the pool of dating men mature in their jobs. You will be happy if the man is secure and motivated in his own field. Not so, says Michael Cunningham, a psychologist at the University of Louisville. He says, ‘When you talk to women who have been out of college long enough to be hardened and what you hear is ambivalence, if not downright hostility, about the income disparity.’”
Some of the many possible issues may include:
== Her social prestige needs are not met because she cannot be publicly proud of her man. Her girlfriends think he’s ridiculous, and she knows her own status is sinking with each smirk from her female and male acquaintances. Yup, she’s a loser because she couldn’t do better. That’s especially true if they marry and he becomes a stay-at-home dad.
== She can’t sustain sexual interest in a dependent man she neither respects nor admires. She is also denied the opportunity to feel feminine, because, in her eyes, the man is no longer sufficiently masculine. He simply has no standing in the relationship to take on that leadership role.
== If the income disparity is large and permanent, it dawns on her that she will never be able to stay home and raise her children. Nor can she return home afterward; she will have to keep working, full-time, year after year, decade after decade to maintain the household. If she harbors an unrealistic hope for another outcome, this will eventually surface as bitterness as it becomes obvious he doesn’t have the drive or the career path to ever catch up.
== If her income is not stratospheric, a steady financial contribution from him would be welcome. If he’s underemployed or an SAHD, he’s not providing it. This is grating, especially if she has status needs associated with lifestyle and consumption. When the woman stays at home, the man thinks it’s his job to be the provider. When the man stays home, she often thinks he’s freeloading.
== When the man is the breadwinner, it’s their money. When the woman is the breadwinner, it’s her money. She resents that she isn’t free to spend it how she chooses, and she is really, really angry about having to give him money. That makes the relationship maternal, defeats her desire to feel looked-after, and drains whatever is left of the sexual energy from the relationship.
Women know most or all of that instinctively, and none of it looks good on them — especially since, these, days, they like to posture as being wiser, more enlightened, and vastly more ethical than men. That’s why they have to pretend it’s all somehow the man’s fault.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
19 
4
Her comment may have been projecting based on her own experiences, but this comment definitely seems as if you’re projecting as well.
This entire comment implies that women all want to be able to stay at home with the kids. Hell, it assumes that every woman wants kids. It also implies that women need a man to take care of them and that’s what we all look for. For some people, that’s just not the case. A lot of highly successful women are that way for a reason. They have a drive to be so. Not always, but sometimes, this goes along with putting a family and kids on the backburner and not wanting to give up a career to stay at home.
I don’t think men are intimidated by women being successful, but I do think that it can cause as many problems for men as women down the road. It’s been hard for a lot of men I’ve known to date wealthy women seriously, because the women are accustomed to a lifestyle that the men not only can’t afford to provide, but can’t afford to partake in – unless she pays. Some men are just not comfortable with that. On the flip side, some women wouldn’t be comfortable with it either. It depends on the person.
Hot debate. What do you think?
11 
15
Marie writes:
“This entire comment implies that women all want to be able to stay at home with the kids. Hell, it assumes that every woman wants kids. It also implies that women need a man to take care of them and that’s what we all look for.”
======
All I can do is point out that my comment says nothing like that at all.
Like or Dislike:
7 
1
I probably just read it that way, but a few statements set me off to thinking that’s how it sounded. Things like:
“If the income disparity is large and permanent, it dawns on her that she will never be able to stay home and raise her children. Nor can she return home afterward; she will have to keep working, ” – assumes the woman wants to stay at home and raise kids.
“When the man stays home, she often thinks he’s freeloading.” – assume the woman would rather have the man make money and not watch the kids.
“When the man is the breadwinner, it’s their money. When the woman is the breadwinner, it’s her money….That makes the relationship maternal, defeats her desire to feel looked-after” – assumes the woman wants to be looked after and supported.
“Her social prestige needs are not met because she cannot be publicly proud of her man.” – This in itself doesn’t say that, but the end assumes it when it says a woman would not be proud of a stay at home dad.
…For some women, this may all be very true and valid. I’m just saying, that it isn’t true for all women. I, honestly, don’t know how I’d feel about a man not working and staying home. Haven’t been in that situation. But I also know that I would not want to stay at home and not work.
Like or Dislike:
2 
5
When the man is the breadwinner, it’s their money. When the woman is the breadwinner, it’s her money.
Every married man I know complains about this on some level: what’s his is “ours” but what’s hers is “hers”. If the guy doesn’t have his own income, all that’s left is “hers”, so she feels like he’s not contributing anything to the relationship–even if he’s a SAHD.
Like or Dislike:
6 
0
Most men have a need to feel admired and looked up to by their partner. Most of my guy friends readily admit that they like being the one who impresses the woman, not the other way around. The easiest way to flatter a man (be a date, friend, acquaintance) is to comment on how important his career and his job is, how easily he handles an otherwise challenging and stressful role. It is challenging for both parties when this balance is thrown off. The woman may be unintentionally undermining his ability impress and wow when they both realize that she is the more successful one. My typical advice is 1) the woman needs to significantly underplay aspects of her life when dating a less successful man “ie yes I am a partner at the grim, but did I tell you how much I love to cook?” Or 2) try to wait to date a more equal partner (which could mean waiting for a long time). It is a tough choice either way, and it depends on what bothers the woman more: being alone or being with someone but knowing tha she has to put herself in a lesser position to keep the peace.
Hot debate. What do you think?
10 
17
We’re talking about two (well, two and a half) different things here.
Re: Money
In general, I don’t expect this is a problem except with certain kinds of guys. That said, even for the “sensitive new age guys” out there, I can see a way in which the “money” issue would be a problem. It’s actually not about the money specifically, but what the money represents. I tend to think that most guys (not all, but most) want a woman who is emotionally approachable. Someone who’s open, who can be vulnerable with them, and who will “need” them in a sense. Not necessarily financially, and not in some co-dependent way, but every guy likes to play the knight in shining armor now and then, even if it’s something as simple as “Hey, can you open this jar for me?” That’s not a constant thing, either. It could just happen now and again.
Where the money comes in is an indication that this woman doesn’t need you. Likewise, particularly among driven, successful career women, there’s a degree of self-sufficiency that MAY border on indifference to what a guy offers and may suggest that she’d be aloof. Is this true of all career women? Of course not. But plenty of guys may see some high-powered career woman and think “Keep looking” because they’re betting she’ll be aloof.
Re: Education/Smarts
Education is not the same thing as intelligence. I know plenty of dumbasses with degrees from very fine universities. Chances are everyone here does. “I went to [insert well-regarded school here].” Great. You still can’t walk and chew gum at the same time. A degree may indicate intelligence, but not necessarily. Intelligence, however, usually speaks for itself.
However, if, within the first conversation, a woman asks a guy “Where’d you go to school,” particularly if it’s out of context, again, that’s no different from saying “What do you drive?” It’ll come across as superficial and obnoxious to a lot of guys. Yes, even the ones who went to good schools. It’s one thing if it naturally comes up in conversation. The guy says “Oh man, this one time in college…” or references how when he did XYZ when he was in ABC location for his graduate work or whathaveyou, then yeah, saying “Oh? Where’d you go to school?” makes perfect sense. That’s IN context. But as a conversation-starter or as one of those questions in a conversation designed to transition to the next topic? Bad move.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
11 
0
One of my favorite jokes:
Q: You know how you can tell if someone went to Harvard?
A: He’ll tell you.
The other day I was on a phone call with a potential business partner who made sure to let me know he went to Yale. It was a turnoff to me. It made me wonder if as a business partner he would always be trying to one-up me, or maybe if he’ll just want to rest on his laurels.
I went to an elite school but the main thing I learned there is that it doesn’t mean anything. Not one thing. In fact, if anything I’m pissed at how much money I wasted. I never bring up my education unless someone specifically asks.
Hot debate. What do you think?
10 
1
Since the primary benefit in attending an Ivy League school is to develop Ivy League contacts to enhance your career, anyone who has to brag about it is already a failure.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
I’m not sure this lady understands that meeting a man with less educated, and who makes less money, is not a bad thing. Is she looking for a business partner… or a long term relationship partner? I know being a person who has only 2 years of college and has worked in a factory all my life, has never effected the thinking of the many “well off and very smart” women I have dated.
Like or Dislike:
6 
0
Not a bad thing at all. As long as this man have other attributes to offer the woman in the context of the relationship. Also some women are okay with having just an agreeable companion so they are not lonely. They longer ask for attraction or passion, just a nice guy who will let them be at the center stage. In those cases, a more beta partner actually works better.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
Also some women are okay with having just an agreeable companion so they are not lonely. They longer ask for attraction or passion, just a nice guy who will let them be at the center stage. In those cases, a more beta partner actually works better.
Such women have essentially given up. They’d be better off looking for a gamma rather than a beta. Or an actual doormat. I wouldn’t wish for such a relationship for any man…
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
It’s harder to relate to someone without shared or similar experiences.
Not impossible, but harder.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
That men (and the author) do not feel comfortable around, nor respect successful women and judge them for it.
Nah, most men are both comfortable around and respect successful women. We only judge the obnoxious entitled ones. The type of woman who defines herself and her self-worth by that success and who uses that phrase to shore up their fragile self-esteem when she realizes that it’s not enough to make her happy or attract a man. Or the women who are just status whores…
Hot debate. What do you think?
11 
2
I think that elite careers/jobs/professions come with a great deal of personal sacrifice for the employee/worker that people in lower-pressure occupations sometimes just don’t understand.
I know lots of men (bachelor’s level and below) that DO blow off professional women (drs and lawyers). But, I don’t think it’s the money (some of these women are fellows or residents with 300k debt -yes, 300k). I think the availability factor is quite underrated. Lots of men want a women they can plan a weekend date with in advance, or a weeknight movie. A woman who is available for fun once its hits 5:00 pm (or 7 in NYC). Office work is strenuous but not in the same way as working in a hospital our courthouse all day is. The big difference with lots of professions is that the worker has to plan for the unexpected. This often means staying late for ERs. It can really put a dent in one’s social life. And forget about vacation planning. It’s hard.
Also, for the men who like to feel admired or special – how can a convo about a presentation to the boss compete with a story about open heart surgery? Or winning a trial? I think the whole thing becomes tiring – especially in the early stages of dating. And especially when most men don’t care about a woman’s accomplishments as much as they care about her looks. The man not caring can also but the woman’s feelings if her career is something she prides herself on.
I’ve been on many dates, with many false or semi-starts with different guys. In my experience, some men are turned off by me being an attorney (& a few turned on). I stopped disclosing it in the very early stages b/c people make lots of assumptions and I don’t want to waste my dates talking about law school, court rooms, and motions. Let me tell you, I’ve heard the change in the tone of voice and the slightly different approach once a guy hears what I do for a living. It’s subtle but so often true. The slow distancing starts, and I think the man starts to see all the normal scheduling glitches, etc as slights or subtle digs. – she can’t make it to dinner? Oh, I forgot, it’s cuz she’s soooo important…
All in all, I think men go for the hottest, easiest, nicest, sexiest girl they can get. This is often a woman with a decent job that follows a routine schedule so the guy knows when she is available for fun. Also, he can impress her with things a professional women is so accustomed to that she barely appreciates anymore – like a fancy dinner.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
16 
3
Men like hot and easy. No truer words ever spoken.
Like or Dislike:
7 
1
“Men like hot and easy. No truer words ever spoken.”
Word. Or werd even. Life is difficult enough, who on earth would want to come home to a “challenge”? Your partner is supposed to be a pleasant, nurturing, sweetening enhancement to your life. The last thing on the planet I need are more fucking problems to solve.
I think any girl who spent less time trying to be challenging (snarky, argumentative, and/or difficult) and listened to what men really want (to be respected) would probably get snapped up quickly and not post for long on a singles board.
Hot debate. What do you think?
8 
6
Respectful, nurturing mates can also provide intellectual ( / spiritual / cultural) “challenge” that many of us value. When my boyfriend and I started dating, he said he wanted someone who can help him keep growing. We do that for each other by taking classes, reading the same new books, sharing interesting problems from work, passing along online articles, traveling, and yes, having debates… all activities that are shaped in part by our careers and ambitions. This sort of challenge does indeed sweeten our lives, in an enlivening rather than deadening way.
Like or Dislike:
6 
1
There’s a difference between being superior and growing together, between argument and debate, between, challenge and stimulation, between competition and cooperation.
An ideal relationship has the couple working as a team vs. the outside world. There are plenty of ways to divide that up the responsibilities within the team, but if you’re not a team, you’re just two people fucking each other until something better comes along.
Like or Dislike:
7 
1
I think men go for the hottest, easiest, nicest, sexiest girl they can get.
Frankly, I’d take “cute” over “hot”, but the general point stands: we want someone we’re attracted to. Duh?
As for “easy”, I should point out that doesn’t just mean sexually; it means easy to date and generally get along with.
lots of men … DO blow off professional women (drs and lawyers).
I’ve found that most doctors and lawyers, both male and female, are insufferable pains in the ass who I wouldn’t even want as friends, much less as a life partner. There are a handful of exceptions, and the same problem can be found in any field, but it’s particularly common in those two professions. That you only include doctors and lawyers in “professional”, instantly denigrating the millions of professional workers in other fields, is a sign you’re one of them. That has nothing to do with being “intimidated” by you.
Oh, I forgot, it’s cuz she’s soooo important…
Exactly. Doctors and lawyers are particularly prone to seeing their work as a “higher calling”. While men in those fields rarely seem to have a problem “dating down”, it’s a lot harder to find men willing to put up with that kind of perpetual condescension, so the women are generally limited to dating within their own (very limited) circle.
Hot debate. What do you think?
9 
4
Right – I meant easy as in easy to meet up with, talk to, plan dates with, etc. Not the sexual sort of easy.
And, um, you’re just the type of guy I mean with the stigmatization of certain careers and assumptions about those who chose them. I included solely Drs and lawyers b/c those are the examples I’ve observed in my personal life – not as some rampant disregard of all the other professions in the world. I’m sure any profession outside the “pink collar” has its own dating issues I’m not qualified to speak about (like women who are police officers, entrepreneurs, female dating columnists, whathaveyou).
You’re exactly the type to see “I’ve got to cancel b/c I have to finish this motion by tomorrow” or “I wish i could but I’m on call Saturday” as “My job is better than yours so I can’t be bothered seeing you tonight.” It’s very tiring, and, yes, you’re probably the type who IS intimidated about something to do with these professions or else why would you harbor such hatred?
Like or Dislike:
4 
5
Male commenters of this blog come from a certain social economic class where successful women just can’t won’t do well, no matter how hard they try. Comments like cr’s is precisely why (as an example) a female surgeon can’t really date down, since the men will forever despise her for who she is. She is pegged as being obnoxious and a terrible person purely by her profession.
I work in a field where most men have graduate degrees, if not from elite schools. These men were raised by smart women (not uncommon when they say they had moms who were professors and doctors). They simply can’t bring a bartender with a GED home to mom and dad. They also get that (unlike cr mentioned), being successful is in many make you a better mom : smart and resourceful wome raise smart and high achieving sons.
This group of men will always be the best “audience” for smart and successful women. It is not about money, but about values and culture.
Hot debate. What do you think?
4 
11
First it was men were just intimidated, now, apparently, it’s class warfare.
precisely why (as an example) a female surgeon can’t really date down, since the men will forever despise her for who she is. She is pegged as being obnoxious and a terrible person purely by her profession.
That is completely ridiculous on many levels. First it confuses what a woman does for a living with who she is. Next it makes the erroneous claim that men will despise women because of their profession. Some women may do this, but most men don’t confuse who a woman is with her profession. The only way a woman is pegged as being an obnoxious and terrible person is if she acts obnoxiously and terribly. It’s all about the attitude.
The only reason some men prefer not to date, for example, lawyers is that experience has shown that they tend to be argumentative and PITAs. Quite a lot of male lawyers are just the same way.
These men were raised by smart women…They simply can’t bring a bartender with a GED home to mom and dad.
Depends upon the bartender. The only reason he couldn’t bring her home is if mom and dad are insufferable snobs. And then, why would she want to meet them.
Male commenters of this blog come from a certain social economic class where successful women just can’t won’t do well, no matter how hard they try.
Riiight. We’re all just uncouth proles who can’t understand our social betters. That’s quite a load of unadulterated bullshit. This is what causes men to reject women who think this way; it begets a shitty attitude in general and unattractive behavior overall. It has nothing to do with profession or success. The idea that money and social status equates to virtue is poisoning this country.
I’ve often said that when it comes to finding a partner, “deserve” has got nothing to do with it. In this case, women who cling to this type of thinking deserve both loneliness and scorn…
Hot debate. What do you think?
11 
2
I don’t really think you have that many opportunity to “reject” or bury these women with “scorn” in real life. Talking a big game on a blog is how some men work out their frustrations from the real world dating. It is an opportunity to say things that can’t to women in the real world “you deserve to be alone!! you don’t deserve me!”, and feel the some camaraderie from fellow male commenters.
Hot debate. What do you think?
1 
9
Oh my God. Both of you. Stop. You both need to get treated for that scorching case of Lastworditis you have.
Talking a big game on a blog is how some men work out their frustrations from the real world dating.
Yeah. You’re sooooooooooooooooo different.
Like or Dislike:
8 
0
Male commenters of this blog come from a certain social economic class
Oh really? What class would that be?
Comments like cr’s is precisely why (as an example) a female surgeon can’t really date down, since the men will forever despise her for who she is. She is pegged as being obnoxious and a terrible person purely by her profession.
That’s not what I said at all, and projecting those insecurities onto what I did say just proves my point.
I work in a field where most men have graduate degrees, if not from elite schools. These men were raised by smart women (not uncommon when they say they had moms who were professors and doctors). They simply can’t bring a bartender with a GED home to mom and dad.
I was raised by two smart parents, and when I bring a gal home to meet them, all they care about is whether we’re happy together, not the prestige of her career or whether she went to an “elite” school.
They also get that (unlike cr mentioned), being successful is in many make you a better mom : smart and resourceful wome raise smart and high achieving sons. This group of men will always be the best “audience” for smart and successful women. It is not about money, but about values and culture.
It’s about mistaking money for success, which is definitely a values and culture thing.
Like or Dislike:
6 
0
And, um, you’re just the type of guy I mean with the stigmatization of certain careers and assumptions about those who chose them.
I wasn’t stigmatizing those careers. One of the lawyers at work is a joy to be around, and I’d date her in a heartbeat if she didn’t live a thousand miles away. My personal lawyer is great, and I’d love to meet up with Craig next time I’m in NYC. OTOH, I’ve met dozens of lawyers who are self-important douchebags. Ditto for doctors.
You’re exactly the type to see “I’ve got to cancel b/c I have to finish this motion by tomorrow” or “I wish i could but I’m on call Saturday” as “My job is better than yours so I can’t be bothered seeing you tonight.” It’s very tiring,
It has nothing to do with that. I work long, strange hours at times as well. What you’re projecting onto my response is a perfect example of the condescension I was talking about, though.
and, yes, you’re probably the type who IS intimidated about something to do with these professions or else why would you harbor such hatred?
It’s not hatred; I simply don’t like you, and that was the case long before I learned what profession you were in–though it didn’t surprise me when I did.
Like or Dislike:
6 
0
CR – “I’ve found that most doctors and lawyers, both male and female, are insufferable pains in the ass who I wouldn’t even want as friends, much less as a life partner.”
LS – “The only reason some men prefer not to date, for example, lawyers is that experience has shown that they tend to be argumentative and PITAs”
— I find it very hard to believe that preconceptions (or opinions) like the ones above don’t translate into dating choices. Given two equally attractive online dating profiles, I think men like this would view the women with the profs. named above a bit more negatively than the women who isn’t a member of either of those profs. It’s just another personal preferance of some members of the opposite sex, not so different than weight, age, location, std status, credit, unemployment, etc.
My point is that career bias exists within both sexes and it’s played out in different ways. One of these ways is that some men don’t like to date women involved in certain professions. The professions men often don’t like tend to be competitive ones whose membership requires an investment of a great deal of time, money, advanced degrees, and licensure.
I really don’t think it’s the Money – many corporate execs & IT peeps earn substantially more money than the professions listed, and work bizarre hours. But, I feel these professions do not have the same stigma attached by men (especially in the dating phase). There is also the issue of inherited wealth/money. I have never heard of a man breaking up with a woman b/c her dad is too rich or she owns her own home.
Like or Dislike:
2 
3
Why do you care if Crotch Rocker and Lost Sailor or other men don’t like lawyers and doctors? If you think they’re misguided or stupid or have bad judgment, then why would you want to date them, or convince them to like you or to want to date you. Let them be. Find men who like lawyers and doctors. Duh?
Like or Dislike:
6 
0
What are you talking about? It’s not about those men or about me. Get a clue – I’m not personally attacking those two or berating them for thier personal biases in dating. We ALL have personal biases. Only losers go around getting mad at people who don’t want to go out with them.
Point is, this is just another bias. And I think it’s interesting to discuss/explore it cuz some women who are dealing with it might benefit from hearing about it or seeing how it plays out for other women or men. It might HELP some of these women in their dating life – this is a dating advice blog after all. If you’re not getting anything out of the post or responses why don’t you just skip them?
Like or Dislike:
2 
4
You said above that you downplay your career as a lawyer so the guy won’t get turned off. My point is why would you want to go out with a guy who didn’t want to date lawyers. That’s what I’m talking about.
Like or Dislike:
4 
0
My point is why would you want to go out with a guy who didn’t want to date lawyers
I don’t think either CR or myself ever said we don’t want to date lawyers or categorically rule them out just based on their profession. I’ve dated lawyers in the past and will surely do so in the future.
But D’Alias is right that I will set a slightly higher bar for women who have a potentially overly demanding job. I’d want to see greater compatibility in other areas, especially for women who likely work very long hours. If they have limited availability for getting together it makes dating and relationships more difficult and if I’m going to put in the effort, I want it to be worth it.
Someone’s profession is just one more data point to consider when considering dating them.
Like or Dislike:
7 
1
Here’s some dating advice: Don’t date guys that don’t like you.
Hot debate. What do you think?
7 
3
Office work is strenuous but not in the same way as working in a hospital our courthouse all day is. The big difference with lots of professions is that the worker has to plan for the unexpected. This often means staying late for ERs. It can really put a dent in one’s social life. And forget about vacation planning. It’s hard.
I think you’re proving CR’s point with this statement. Office work is hard ..but not as hard as being a doctor or a lawyer! You’re isolating those two professions out as being unique in some way when they’re not. Every profession has a up/down side, a busy season, the propensity for late nights and even health hazards. I know plenty of women who won’t date cops or fireman because of the danger involved. I also know plenty of women who won’t date investment bankers because of the stress and because of their lifestyles/schedules because they have so much international business. Ever try dating an accountant in March or April? Forget it! You never see them!
Also, for the men who like to feel admired or special – how can a convo about a presentation to the boss compete with a story about open heart surgery? Or winning a trial?
There you go again. You’re the one who places more importance on these kinds of jobs. Not the men.
You’re the one with the bias. You’re the one who thinks a doctor or lawyer deserves more consideration and attention because of what they do not because of who they are.
By being so combative and argumentative you’re demonstrating why a lot of people don’t like dating lawyers in the first place. It’s not the profession. It’s that so many lawyers don’t know how to leave their job at the office.
Like or Dislike:
5 
2
Agree with a lot of this.
Not being able to leave the office at the office is hard on the significant other. Heck, I was pretty bad at it when I was a PhD student and lived with my girlfriend. I had an irregular schedule, long hours, and too much stress that I couldn’t compartmentalize well. I messed that relationship up…She was a kind, feminine elementary school teacher.
Although I try not to discriminate against lawyers and doctors, I do give special preference to teachers. I think it’s the possible tendency towards more femininity.
Gentle, feminine, and pretty really do it for me.
Is there a dating site with just pretty teachers?!
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
“All in all, I think men go for the hottest, easiest, nicest, sexiest girl they can get. This is often a woman with a decent job that follows a routine schedule so the guy knows when she is available for fun. Also, he can impress her with things a professional women is so accustomed to that she barely appreciates anymore – like a fancy dinner”. DA
Why yes, this is the very essence of the ‘problem’ or issue for ‘successful’ women especially ones who are a bit older. What’s the discount for knowing a bit about Opera & otherwise obscure fine arts? Do they perhaps gain some extra indemnity worth how many excess pounds or years? Is there some limit to the amount of disposable income that might be able to overcome a ‘plain face’, a piss poor attitude and or a body ruined by excess or age? What will the market bear? Strangely enough there are behavioral economic tests for many of these various propositions, and the men mostly come out as fairly easy to please on several counts. Youth and beauty is prized above all, smarts and ‘resourcefulness’ is also highly valued.
Think on it a bit. We all may know of lovely single moms, who are literally quite stunning, but who somehow are never quite lucky with dating. Especially with a previous existing relationship & child/ren to consider. That’s a huge mountain to climb, even for otherwise very successful women. But it’s still fairly common.
So success is a relative thing. If you’ve waited a very long time (your 30′s) to seriously search for a mate, much of that ‘youthful exuberance’ will have been wasted on others. Your potential marriage partner (M/F) will never see it, and never get to enjoy it or you in your yes, physical prime. Physical beauty and health and a willingness to ‘explore’ and being open to new experiences are mostly highly perishable commodities. If all you’ve got is money, honey, many people and and will resist that temptation. They’ll need more, much more to attract them to your door. Believe it or not. Cheers, ‘VJ’
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
12 
1
I do not think successful women see their success as “something to offer” for men. Most realize that their success is a hurdle and negative factor in dating. Very few women think that money and wealth will attract a men. In fact, the topic has been that money and success tend to repel or intimidate men.
successful women need to learn to drastically downplay their assets (financial, intellectual, emotional) and keep the men on the pedestal to maintain a relationship. If a woman really wants a relationship above all else, my advice is to put the men in the front and center wherever you can. Let them feel like the successful, dominant, and intelligent one in the relationship (regardless if that is true of not). To me, that is just too much work. To women who desperately want children and the respectability of being married, that is just unfortunately what one has to do.
Hot debate. What do you think?
6 
10
I do not think successful women see their success as “something to offer” for men.
Disagree. How many posts do we see here and elsewhere from woman who lament “but I’m attractive, strong, independent, and successful! Why can’t I find a man”? Online dating profiles are rife with women offering up their success as at least one of their attractive features. It’s been oft noted that quite a lot of women view financial success as attractive in a man, so they assume that it’s success that is attractive over all. It’s not. Moreover, it’s the entitled attitude that many successful women project that turns men off. Rather than address the attitude, these women will claim men are intimidated. Wash, rinse, repeat.
To me, that is just too much work.
Wow. It’s “too much work” to treat a man you’re dating with respect and not be a ball-busting bitch? That certainly speaks volumes…
Hot debate. What do you think?
12 
8
She said “downplay yourself and place the man on an undeserved pedestal” and you heard “respectful, non-ball-busting bitch.”
Hot debate. What do you think?
8 
5
No, she said it’s too much work to not constantly flaunt her “assets” whether they deserve it or not and such strategies are only for women “desperate” for children and a “respectable” marriage. Or, in other words, ball-busting bitch. QED.
Hot debate. What do you think?
5 
5
That should be “flaunt her “assets” to men she’s dating, whether they deserve it or not”
Like or Dislike:
3 
2
Lost; You are absolutely right. Thanks for pointing that out. You really opened my eyes here.
To rest of reader – see what I mean? Most women have to constantly placate men and do whatever they can to keep the man feeling secure about their egos.
Hot debate. What do you think?
3 
11
Please. Women have just as many insecurities that need placated in a relationship as men do.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
12 
0
India, glad I could help. Apparently women with a huge chip on their shoulder feel the need to “placate” men. The rest just treat men like human beings…
Hot debate. What do you think?
9 
3
Let me ask you something, India. What would your reaction be if a guy here wrote something like “Most men have to constantly placate women and do whatever they can to keep the woman feeling secure about her looks.”
Would that irritate you? Would you maybe roll your eyes at such a sweeping and condescending generalization? Would you think the poster is kind of an asshole?
I’m curious.
Hot debate. What do you think?
10 
2
D you are so right. Women are insecurely ones.. I am an “ball busting bitch” and an “asshole” for my previous comment. Lost sailor totally did not twist my words and insert comments i never made into this discussion. Let us just leave this alone.
All I have to say is that women face certain realities this world, and there is very little we can do about it. We have to play by the rules (men superior, women inferior) to keep relationships happy am peaceful. Some women think it is worth it, and some choose the stay out of this all together. Signing off.
Hot debate. What do you think?
8 
10
Wow. Such insight. Such empathy. Such a capacity to take responsibility for your actions. I’m impressed.
Enjoy your solitude.
Like or Dislike:
7 
2
It’s not about the assets she has or the job she works. It’s about the degree of warmth and approachability she displays, as well as a level of appreciation for the guy she’s with. While I’m sure there are some guys who would be turned off by such a prospect, I’d bet there’s plenty of guys out there who wouldn’t really care IF they felt like they were appreciated and that she genuinely cared about them.
There’s also a difference between a woman who makes more but still roughly comparable money to the guy, and a woman who makes DRAMATICALLY more than the guy. Like, if she’s making $150K a year, and he’s making $135K….are they really so far apart? I doubt it. Not as long as she’s otherwise approachable and capable of showing she cares about the guy.
This doesn’t require a woman to put the guy on a pedestal or fawn over him or whathaveyou. It’s nothing so extreme, nor are guys quite so fragile across the board. It’s more just…show ‘em you care and that you appreciate them. Sure, some guys need to feel dominant in relationships, but plenty of guys don’t give a shit about that stuff.
Like or Dislike:
5 
0
a man is only ever put off by how much money you make if he is a total tool with an annoying inferiority complex – it is not normal. and the “fragile ego” man the commenter is describing may describe every annoying dickwad she’s ever dated, but they are by no means the norm. a guy i dated for 2 years was unemployed 90% of the time we were together and had nooooo problem borrowing money from me but every time we got in an argument i got accused of thinking i was better than him, because i made like $100k+ a year. that guy is a massive douche and the biggest dating mistake i ever made. since him, every guy i’ve ever gotten close enough to for them to learn how much i make are really turned on by it, not because they always made as much or more than me, but because they are secure in who they are as people. being rich does not automatically equal being confident. this woman is diluted.
Like or Dislike:
6 
1
As a guy with that income and education, I work with and meet a lot of powerful women. In fact, my manager is a high powered woman. Some of these women are happily married and some of them are having a hard time finding someone or unhappily married. From my personal observations of the limited sample around my office, here are what separate the happy ones from the unhappy ones.
1) Don’t start your criteria with someone with an education as “good” as yours and a six or seven figure income. You wouldn’t want men to screen for “D” cup boobs or model legs. Drilling us about our jobs and education, losing interest if we don’t meet your standards is just as bad as me checking out your top and bottom when I first see you and then dismissing you for small boobs and fat legs.
2) Get out of the rat race. There will always be someone who makes more money or has a better education than whoever you decide to date. If you keep comparing your man to your girlfriends’ men, you are going to be very unhappy. Trust me, your man will appreciate you saying good things about him not how your girlfriend’s husband just brought a new mansion.
3) Focus on what makes you really happy. I recognize that there are many people struggling financially and that is a huge contributor to unhappiness. However, I doubt any of these women are having a hard time putting food on the table even if it is for two. Is maintaining the sex and the city lifestyle that important? Do you really think your girlfriends are happy when you show off that big diamond ring? I find the things I value doesn’t require money but are much harder to get-time with loved ones, chance to build relationships and free time.
For those trying to find a relationship, I hope you take a step back and contemplate.
Like or Dislike:
4 
0