So, the other night on Girls, Lena Dunham had sex with Patrick Wilson and the internet’s head exploded. 
I wrote a comment in response to the above linked article that I’ll post here:
I think the true distinction here is what men and women will consider attractive for sex and what men and women consider attractive in general. It sounds awful, but I really think that’s an important factor that many of these pieces about this episode are missing. Would a guy who looks like Wilson have sex with a girl who looks like Dunham? Would a woman like Dunham have sex with Wilson? Sure. All that “proves” is that they each find each other attractive “enough.” I think this is more situational than anything else. That’s why I get uncomfortable when people start saying how they, despite having characteristics that some people have decided are not objectively “hot” , start pointing to instances of their sex with “hot” people as though that proves something.
I guess I’m uneasy with saying to people, “Hey, fuck them. There are plenty of men or women who will throw you a bone if they’re desperate.” Am I supposed to be happy about that?
More from the piece:
Couples are “mismatched” because these boundaries, these “leagues” are made up by society and easily crossed. Anybody can have sex with anybody else! And they do, all the time! Just not on TV. – From the XOJane article
We’ve discussed the ides of leagues here. I’ve said many times that I do believe that leagues exist. Yes, there are anomalies. Of course. There always are. But no matter how many times “society” tells me how hot Liam Hemsworth is, I’m still going to find him twee. I do think some people let the media decide what is to be considered attractive. For the most part, though, I think that is a determination we come to all on our own. There are various criteria and characteristics that can make someone attractive. We’re all programmed differently in that regard. I like British accents. A British accent can make an other wise average looking guy hot to me. That doesn’t mean that all British men are attractive or will be found attractive by a large segment of the population. Sex, or more specifically the ability to have it with someone else, doesn’t prove attraction or desirability. It really only supports the fact that those two people wanted to have sex. I happen to think that, many times, the need for intense or even moderate attraction can be secondary.
Do I believe that it’s common for men who look like Patrick Wilson to sleep with women who look like Lena Dunham? It depends. Common in the sense that these men would carry on long term relationships with them? No I don’t. Common in the sense that they’d have sex with them? Yes. But what does that prove and why should we be happy about that or using it as a defense?
What made me most uncomfortable with the XOJane article was the idea that being able to bang a “hot” person somehow disproves the principles of attraction and existence of leagues. That’s giving the “hot” people a lot of power. So, if someone “hot” sleeps with me, that means that I can ignore all the other rejections and criticisms? You know, because that person was “hot” and therefore their opinion matters more? They’re not Knighting me. They’re f**king me. That’s not a declaration of anything and it’s certainly not an accomplishment.
Aside from being sexist and sizeist and just plain fucking rude, this idea that you have to have a thin, perfect body and the face of a model in order to be sexually attractive is just patently untrue. – From the XOJane article
I agree with this. However, the salient point being glossed over is attractive to whom? I know someone mentioned it in the articles recently, but this is a one-sided take on something that is two-sided. That’s another point I take issue with. Like someone here said, women can’t decide for men what they should find attractive. Nor should they make sweeping statements that completely remove or exclude a man’s input on the subject just for a few rounds of “You go girl!”
Read the article and tell me what you think.
“Hot guys” will have sex with almost any woman.
If those “hot guys” are smart, they will commit to almost no woman.
Yeah, it’s a variation of my usual mantra.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I can think of a couple of friends of mine, fairly unattractive, short and fat. They only sleep with fine looking women. I can think of another few friends, tall and buff, couple of them, personal trainers. They will sleep with anything. One even has rumors of sleeping with the four-legged type hanging around his name. I know that’s gross, but we never really know what motivates people to do what they do. There is no correlation between looks and the attractiveness of sexual partners. Don’t worry, women do the same too.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I have a friend who is uber handsome – great face, hair, dresses really well incredibly smart (IQ of something like 170) and is a successful musician to boot (not a big name, but his stuff gets featured on TV shows, he also was on the Brokeback Mountain sound track).
The other night I had dinner with him and met his wife and… she is not attractive. Cute enough face but could stand to lose a good 50 pounds. OTOH she was very nice and engaging.
It made me wonder though… this guy might be the most handsome dude I know, so why is he settling for someone so below his league?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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ahem… maybe because to him she is attractive? you know, he is sleeping with her, not you…
additionally, it’s easy to find a hot guy / girl to f*ck, it’s much harder to want to wake up next to them and share coffee & conversation.
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I’ve never heard a man say this, and I know a whole of of them:
additionally, it’s easy to find a hot guy / girl to f*ck, it’s much harder to want to wake up next to them and share coffee & conversation.
I’m betting you’re a girl.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I say that. (http://how-i-met-your-mother.wikia.com/wiki/Hot/Crazy_Scale)
Also your friend might prefer a woman with those extra pounds.
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“Leagues,” as has been mentioned on this site many times, refers to the people who you can regularly attract and consistently date successfully (whether you define “success” as one-night stands, relationships, or something else).
Moxie notes “anomalies” above, which is a key insight. Many people have had the experience of dating way above their league a few times—just as many athletes have had the experience of scoring at the last second to win a game. These exceptions just prove the rule.
[The XO Jane article about “unattractive” women being able to sleep with “hot” guys doesn’t prove anything to me, since most guys—whether he’s a 3 or a 10--will sleep with a girl if the pathway is very easy. It doesn’t mean he’s going to stick around the next day or week—something also discussed countless times here.]
Leagues are especially enforced online, where everybody is photo/resume dating. A person can “rise” in league by improving their fashion, losing weight, earning more, etc. However, this change is usually only marginal: “4s” almost never become “9s.”
A caveat is that when people get into long-term relationships or marriages, they don’t always rigidly adhere to their league. I know some men and women who seemed to have married way up or down in league, insofar as looks and income. My guess is that they chose their partners based on much more than an image/resume. As long as a baseline attraction was met, they seemed to have looked for other things (ex: character, humor, intelligence, whatever).
However, that caveat aside, I have gotten a lot more success since I took an objective assessment of my league and dated within it. I call it adulthood.
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Do “leagues” exist? Yes, I’d say they do in a fairly abstract way. They aren’t rigid, though, and I tend to think they’re a lot broader than some people think. In the online context, I think they narrow and get somewhat warped. Partially this is because, as Speed points out, you’re “photo and resume” dating. You’re basically dating absent context of personality (or at least partially absent personality, depending on how someone’s profile is written). That leads to only focusing on certain criteria, particularly looks and demographic stats. (She’s hot, but 38? Too old; I can do better. He’s 6′ tall, but only a 7 in his pics? No thanks; I can do better.) In person, though, these same people might be far more attractive. I’ve had it happen to me where I skimmed past people whose profiles I saw online, and later met them in person and found them FAR more attractive. Online dating also creates warped perceptions about supply & demand. The more options there are out there, the more narrow one’s criteria become (and thus, the tighter the perception of one’s “league” becomes) because of the appearance that you don’t have to compromise, but rather, can just keep looking until your ideal shows up.
In person, though, I think “leagues” are a lot more fungible than people admit. It’s a range, not an absolute number. And the criteria for them changes depending on what you’re talking about. For example, the “league” for casual hookups/casual dating is different from the “league” for serious relationships. The criteria change dramatically. This touches on why guys will sleep with a girl who’s not as attractive as them in some objective sense. It’s because (A) they can, and (B) who cares? It’s just for sex, and probably just a one-time or once-in-a-while deal, anyway. By the same token, they’ll hook up with a super-hot boring girl because, hey, she’s super-hot and wants to sleep with them, so who cares if she’s boring? It’s just sex.
That changes, though, when you look at the criteria for serious relationships. Suddenly, the super-hot boring girl isn’t as attractive as a long-term prospect. Sure, she’s got a killer body, but if you can’t carry on a decent conversation with her, you’re not gonna get serious (well, assuming “decent conversation” is somethingyou want in a long-term relationship). “Hot” or rather physical attraction gets you in the front door, but it doesn’t get you invited to stick around.
For long-term relationships, I tend to think that what you’re really dealing with is minimum thresholds. Does the person meet the minimum threshold for attractiveness? Intelligence? Charisma? And so on. There are a lot of variables that come into play for long-term relationships, as opposed to just casual dating or fucking, so I tend to think the goal is to find someone who is “good enough” in a sufficient number of criteria that you can be happy with them.
Lastly, I think that much of the focus on leagues and such is (at least the way some people talk about it) part of a larger phenomenon related to the whole “never settle” thing. While leagues are real in a general sense, people use them — and the anomalous instances where leagues are “defied” — to justify consistently holding out for “perfect” rather than “good enough.” Leagues, “market value,” and other notions of objective criteria can become a trap that actually keeps someone single because they’re focused on some external/resume factor, rather than “What will make me happy?” “Good enough” really is good enough, if you can recognize that fact.
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For long-term relationships, I tend to think that what you’re really dealing with is minimum thresholds.
Exactly. I used to have rather standards of my own, even for casual dating, but it didn’t take me long to figure out that (a) there were no single women who met them and were interested in me, and (b) I didn’t like being alone.
So, after years of revising my standards downward, I am left with this: not ugly, not prude, not stupid and not bitchy. Unfortunately, there are few single women who meet even those ridiculously loose criteria–after all, that’s why they’re single–but at least I do run across one every now and then (usually single moms), unlike the unicorns I was chasing before.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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You sounds like those women who claim that very few men are not ass holes or douche bags.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Crotch Rocket usually has pretty interesting comments; maybe he’s having a bad day.
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I didn’t love this particular article because the writer comes off desperate to prove that, despite her outer appearance, men find her attractive.
Men notice me — a few times a month, a man hands me his phone number on the subway train or in line at the deli. (Is that obnoxious to say? Sorry, I like myself.)
So yes, I look a lot like Lena Dunham. And while they are not my preferred type, I have had sex with movie-star hot men with chiseled Adonis bodies. Some of those men were wealthy and successful. A lot of them thought I was beautiful and told me so. Usually, I got tired of them and moved on.
I’m not saying she’s unattractive. I just find it hard to believe that she gets the attention she gets from men who are interested in her for more than an isolated hook-up. As Moxie mentioned, that shouldn’t be taken as a compliment. I’ve read a few more of her articles. She complains about being sexualized and objectified by men on the street, yet brags about guys who are essentially doing the exact same thing to her just using a different approach. She likes to be objectified and sexualized. She just doesn’t want to know she’s being objectified and sexualized.
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It’s not only that she is desperate to prove that men find her attractive she is also desperate to show that she is above it all . “…I have had sex with movie-star hot men with chiseled Adonis bodies. Some of those men were wealthy and successful. A lot of them thought I was beautiful and told me so. Usually, I got tired of them and moved on.”
In her mind she is such a special snowflake that even “movie-star hot men with chiseled Adonis bodies” some of whom “were wealthy and successful” are not good enough for her. She really has issues and it’s a little bit sad that she’s seeking validation for her own self-image in a fictional TV show.
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That is exactly why I think she is lying. At least fudging the details. “Movie-star hot men” could be a very broad definition. Hell, Mickey Rourke is a movie star (although women wouldn’t likely ever label him hot).
I smell over-compensation.
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I watched a clip of the show and, the “fatty/plain with hottie” element aside, I’d say all the whining made for a good argument against dating people in their 20s (I’m curious to see that show, BTW, to see what the fuss is about, but it’s always out of stock on Netflix).
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Angie/Brad and Halle Berry and her string of men aside, you rarely see two super hot people together in a long term relationship. BUT … and this is a big BUT .. the person who is less physically attractive brings something of equal worth to the table – be it money, prestige, talent, power. Shows like “Girls” and the typical shlubby quy with hot wife story line (Judd Apatow I’m looking at you) never get this – the hot person is always fawning over the lesser soul, who usually doesn’t even have a good personality.
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To answer the title: Yes.
However, only to women, because women have social gauges for attractiveness, while men have personal gauges for attractiveness.
If a girl sleeps with an attractive man, it doesn’t make her seem hotter to other men. In general, a girl having sex with anyone not you makes her a little less attractive. Men are like that. It is what it is.
If a guy sleeps with an attractive woman, women tend to find him more attractive. It’s like she’s vouching for him. Women are social like that. You tend to fuck men for the same reason you buy shoes.
And: Yes. There are, indeed, leagues. The lines between them are blurry. And it’s vitally important to understand that there are separate leagues for attractiveness (sex appeal) and attraction (sex potential), and they have ENTIRELY DIFFERENT distributions. I’ve known some really unattractive guys just kill it in the mating game. And I’ve known hot chicks who almost never got laid.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Hmm. Did the title change? I could’ve sworn it was something like: “Does sleeping with an attractive person make you attractive?”
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Also, the women (I’m just guessing) are voting every post like this down. We’re just speaking the gospel, girls (okay, the shoe thing might’ve been a bit much).
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I agree 100% with Marshmallow. You rarely see two super hot people together. That’s because opposites attract. Naturally, people gravitate to whoever finds them attractive and treats them the best. A good looking guy is usually treated better by a girl who is less attractive then himself and same principle applies with a good looking girl.
In relationships, I think one person is always more physically attractive than the other. But, everybody brings their pluses (money, good in bed, etc) and minuses to the table and it all balances out in the end. Unfortunately, I think the more attractive person usually ends up being in the driver’s seat in the relationship. And the less attractive person tolerates that behavior simply because the other person more is attractive or has a lot of attractive attributes (money).
I’m a good looking guy and I would rate myself a 7. Quite honestly, I’ve been on hundreds of dates with people I’ve met online. And the one thing I’ve noticed is that for me, it’s easier to date average-looking girls than the super attractive ones. Sure, I’d love to have a Halle Berry on my arm, but I dont usually get along with those type women, because I’m used to dating average looking women LOL.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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When things happen that do not conform to the generally accepted standards, notions and ideas, people always seem to rush to some form of a somewhat logical explanation, often times based on nothing more than an isolated instance or few. In a world with Billions of people, all kinds of things are bound to happen simply because of the law of large numbers. Period. Sure every case will have a perfectly reasonable explanation, but to try and blanked all similar cases with one explanation is total folly.
The whole idea of “leagues” makes me a bit sick. How does that ever supersede the importance of long term happiness between two individuals? And who are we to judge what others find attractive? Why are we so hell bent on fitting everything into some cookie cutter perfect mold?
Have we never met couples who were in their own “leagues” whose relationships ended in a heap of ruin? And where are the numbers that prove that if both people are within same “league”, whatever that is, their chances of a long term successful and happy relationship increase by any amount? If you got it please point me in that direction.
Who you end up bedding has no impact on you attractiveness level, at least from a male point of view. I don’t think it’s the same from a female point. We are wired differently. Look into “Attraction is Not a Choice” and judge for yourself.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Either I don’t believe in leagues, or in my circles, leagues are based on criteria other than looks. The people I know tend to go for educational level and intelligence over looks, so perhaps we have a smarts-based league. Most of my coupled-up friends are mismatched in looks, but equal in brain-power.
As I’ve noted in other posts, I’m a BBW, with an emphasis on the big. Objectively speaking, I have a nice face, but honestly, the first thing people notice about me is that I’m short and fat. Yet, I consistently date (and have long-term relationships with) smart, interesting men who based on looks are probably waaaaaay out of my league. Maybe it’s like Marshmellow said upstream…”the person who is less physically attractive brings something of equal worth to the table – be it money, prestige, talent, power.” What I bring to the table is maturity, an upbeat personality, high level of education, & financial and emotional security, wit, etc. But I’m no “10.” I might squeak in at a 5, higher if you like busty girls.
In any case, the people I know don’t adhere to a traditional model of leagues.
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There are indeed leagues (we might distribute them differently), for which general attractiveness is the most important factor. It’s just possible to be strong enough in other areas to “league jump.” It’s easier for men to league jump than women, because women’s criteria for men is far less looks-focused. The right clothes alone can seem to bump men a notch on the 10-scale. Women can easily league jump for sex, but relationships are another matter. If you’re doing the latter (or both), then I commend you for bringing your A-Game
In NYC, I’d say that if a couple seems mismatched in looks, it’s usually because they’ve been together for a while, and HE gained weight. My perspective of this might be skewed because I’m a man, but I rarely see a mismatched couple in which the woman is the less attractive one.
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The right clothes alone can seem to bump men a notch on the 10-scale.
Studies show that a woman’s perception of a man’s physical attractiveness (when told to ignore all other factors) goes up by an average of 2 points (out of 10) when she’s told he has a high income. Clothing is often used by women to judge a man’s income, so the effect should be similar.
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Which totally reputable academic journal are you getting your data points from?
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Here’s one:
http://evolution.binghamton.edu/evos/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/TownsendWasserman_AttractivenessSexDifferences_1998.pdf
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I don’t know if I would at this point in my life, but at one time I was quite content making my own distinction between (a) “attractive enough to have sex with” and (b) “attractive enough to consider as a long-term girlfriend.” Category A often depended on what my “Good in Bed” instincts told me. One of the best sexual encounters I ever had was with a member of what I call “the Legion of D-Shaped Women.” These are women who have flat behinds almost merging into straight backs, and then small breasts resting atop a big belly. Often these women have plain faces and a somewhat mannish quality. (The one I was with I believe may have been a bisexual veering toward lesbianism, but still needing occasional doses of schlong before she completely switched teams.) When we met I was physically turned off, but she soon showed interest in a sexual encounter, and I thought, what the heck. Even though her body looked even worse naked, she did have a good overall tone (D-shaped women often do) and I liked that she was very free about her body. The result was One Night to Remember. When I heard one of the Gay guys on SEX AND THE CITY tell Charlotte (after she reported a surprisingly satisying night in bed with that bald, stocky lawyer she would eventually marry, the Gay guy said, “Oooh–ugly sex is hot!” I knew what he was talking about.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I haven’t seen the show, but I am assuming that Patrick is very attractive vs. the female character who would be considered average.
I have seen men like Patrick have sex with and have relationships with a less than ‘hot’ woman until they find the woman they REALLY want. I knew a woman who dated a guy for 5 years. They started seeing each other because she asked him. As soon as he found the tall blond woman he REALLY desired, he dropped my friend like an old, damaged shoe from Payless shoe store and MARRIED the blond girl.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I can’t stand that Girls show. Tried watching a few episodes of the first season, but all the existential whining and whinging made be want to have my eyes clawed out by rabid ferrets. The XOJane article is just ego-stroking boosterism by a fairly unattractive woman.
But to the question at hand. Does banging a more attractive person make you more attractive. Yes, for men, assuming the fact is known to other women; no for women, because men really don’t care, as Horace correctly noted, how attractive the other guys you’re banging are, they only care about whether you’re attractive enough and are banging them.
Men will have sex with women that they don’t necessarily find attractive if they have no other options, they want to get laid, and she’s at least attractive enough to pass the boner test. But he’s also likely to drop you once any one of those factors change.
Emily claims to have had sex with chiseled Adonis-like, rich. powerful men (who are totes not her type!), which proves nothing about her attractiveness in the end. The real issue is that none of those men stuck around. Oh, she saves face by claiming that she got bored with them and moved on, because, after all, they’re really not her type. She’s also currently totally buying a bridge across the East River between Manhattan and Brooklyn.
Attraction is an individual thing, but that does not affect the socio-sexual hierarchy. It’s real and it’s not some creation of society, but pretty much inbred. There are always outliers, but they aren’t the norm. You may desire someone higher on the socio-sexual scale, it’s only natural, but it’s also irrelevant; what’s relevant is whether they will find you desirable in return. Note I didn’t say attractive in return, at least in terms of body type or looks. There are other factors that can affect overall attraction beyond looks. But those other factors have to be pretty strong to compensate for unattractive body type or looks to become desirable to people higher than you on the scale.
The folks who hate the “idea” of leagues and those that deny their existence are usually those in the middle or lower half of the scale. Like Emily, with her rather fervently shrill protestations. I think the phrase is “whistling past the graveyard…”
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Would someone as handsome as Patrick Wilson have sex with someone as fugly as Lena Dunham? Yes.
Would someone as handsome as Patrick Wilson DATE (go out on dates, get in relationships with, hold hands in public, introduce to fam and friends) someone as fugly as Lena Dunham? Absolutely not. #realtalk
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I watched the whole cringe inducing episode and kept wondering….not just that she is physically unattractive, but she doesn’t have a good personality either, she is whiny, self centered and needy. When she begged him to beg her to stay…..he must have been super horny is all I can think,
Plus Lena Dunham wrote the episode, she could have it turn out any way she wanted
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Everything I hear about this show makes it sound as if the characters are the incarnation of fingernails on a chalkboard. The only people watching this must either be folks who identify with the characters (in which case, may God have mercy on your souls), masochists, or people so far removed from ever having to rub elbows with people like them that it’s like watching a National Geographic special. Other than that, I can’t grasp the appeal, because anyone who’s had any kind of exposure to folks like this (and yes, they do exist) for longer than 30 minutes wants NOTHING to do with them.
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This post makes me sad – because it’s true. (gorgeous bbw in NYC).
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Is it just me, or do BBWs have more self esteem than other women?
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Sometimes. But I also think sometimes it just looks that way cuz thin people expect heavy people to secretly hate themselves.
I think being slightly outside the norm forces you to become a little more self aware sooner rather than later. I see something similar in all the avg to low avg friends I have who are married or coupled vs the hot friends I have who are single.
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I can’t speak for all BBWs, but my theory is that Big Girls have to learn to accept themselves for who they are. No one is perfect, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t be sexy and fun. I know a lot of thin women who are overwhelmed with insecurities about perceived imperfections. One woman I know will never ever wear a dress or a skirt because she has what she thinks are thick ankles. If I were to stare at her for a hundred years to look for flaws, it would never occur to me that there was anything wrong with her ankles, but she’s focused on it, and there’s nothing anyone can say to convince her otherwise. I, on the other hand, know that I’m heavy, and just accept it. If a guy isn’t attracted to me, no big deal, there are plenty of others out there who are. Since I don’t have to worry about whether or not a guy finds me attractive (because, let’s face it, if he doesn’t we aren’t going to be going on any dates), I can be comfortable in my own sexuality without any hangups if we get to the bedroom.
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