True or False: A Woman Can Get Laid Whenever She Wants

On the topic of women who seek casual/nsa/non-monogamous sex/relationships, G. writes:

“I’d say there are two assumptions:  one is that a woman, no matter what she says, is always “looking” for a more-than-sexual relationship should one present itself and two, as you said, is that a woman can get “just sex” pretty much anytime she wants, without much effort.  So, a woman who seeks “causal sex” or selects it on her profile is suspect.” – G. , Male, 37, NYC

Thoughts?

I think there is some truth to this. However, I think the men who might see these women as suspect probably would have eventually rejected them anyway. If they can’t take a woman’s choice to seek casual sex at face value then that speaks to their pre-conceived ideas about women in general. Seeking sex in some form is merely an outlier of the woman’s personality and belief system. These women would not be compatible with a man who felt she should keep certain carnal desires to herself. Or these guys have a general mistrust of women. Either way, why bother with such men?

Yes, it’s pretty easily to just get sex if that’s what you want. But it’s even easier if you use online dating. Sure, a woman could go out to a party or a bar if she liked. But what if she can’t be bothered to do that? What if she doesn’t have that kind of time or money? What’s wrong with optimizing her online dating experience by using it to find sex? I’m guessing the issue is it’s because she’s being overt about it. See my previous point.

I do agree that “just sex” to men and “just sex” to women is often different. A lot of men are less discerning. As we said last week, for many men attraction isn’t even necessary. I don’t know if many women share that opinion or experience. For some men, “casual ” just means available. When some woman seek “casual” they also often seeks consistency and a sense of companionship or just rapport. But they can want those other aspects without wanting commitment. I guess the segment of men who believe that is just small?

I’m curious to hear what others think about G’s quote.

 

 

 

 

 

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79 Responses to “True or False: A Woman Can Get Laid Whenever She Wants”

  1. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    I would agree that these are the assumptions that men, in general, would make about women, that would lead men to believe something is suspect about a woman who says she’s looking for casual sex on the Internet. Either it’s a trap (she’s really looking for something more) or there’s something wrong with her that she can’t get sex in real life.

    “I think the men who might see these women as suspect probably would have eventually rejected them anyway.”

    I don’t agree at all with this. It’s not her private interest in casual sex that’s the problem, it’s the STATEMENT, out loud, that she is looking for casual sex that is the issue The whole point is that a man will gladly accept a casual situation with a woman, provided she otherwise “acts like a woman,” meaning she (a) deep down wants a relationship and (b) doesn’t need to ask for no strings sex. (By “acts like a woman,” I mean how a man expects a woman to act, whether he’s wrong or whether women agree with that or not.)

    It’s the same as women who announce in their profiles how much they like to watch sports. Sure, some women like to watch sports and some men might even prefer a woman that likes sports. But, a woman who announces it may be doing so, not because she really likes sports, but because she wants men to believe she likes sports and to seek her out for that reason. That’s why it’s suspect.

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    • krismae Says:

      Just curious, if one is just looking for casual sex, then how would he ever get to know a woman well enough to know or care if she 1) wants more than just sex, or 2) is broken. Isn’t the whole point of casual sex to just meet up and have sex, not spend time getting to know someone? It’s not a trap if you stay within the boundaries of “casual sex”. If you are getting to know her to a point that you know she wants more or you know she’s broken, then you’re casually dating. If both parties let that happen, then you’re both playing into the trap.

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      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        People are getting hung up on the word “trap.” Of course, you can avoid it. Here’s another way to look at it. Suppose you’re online and there is a profile of man with multiple pictures, tall, with model looks (i.e. obviously photo shoots from a magazine.) The profile is poetry, reads like it was written by Cyrano D’Bergerac. What is he looking for? Immediate commitment, followed by marriage and children with the lucky woman within no later than 6 months. He states in his profile that he doesn’t even likes dating that much and would prefer to have the woman move in within a date or two so they can just settle down on the couch and cuddle. Sex optional. Perfect man? Or a trap? Read Crotch Rockert’s comment below. That’s how guys look at woman who check “casual sex.” They don’t believe it.

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  2. Karen Says:

    Yes it can be done. Not for one night stands. There does have to be an attraction and I think a woman would want something more consistent with the same person. Men I do believe have issues with a woman that openly express sexually what they want. I have said I am very much a monogamous person in explaining this to a man. Their radar is up quite naturally because its not common a woman can pull it off or can come forward saying that so easily. I do let them know I not so sexually open that I swing or sleep around like some wild untamed animal. It has to be with the right attitude and very open and honest communication. Feelings can get in the way but a woman really has to learn to control that but the chemistry, attraction can make for a great sexual relationship. the feelings are the hardest thing to conquer. But want it and be able to do it? Yes it is possible.

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    • The D-man Says:

      I don’t have an issue with it per se, it’s just that there are so many scams out there predicated on NSA sex (i.e. Adult Friend Finder) that I assume a woman who offers that has some kind of agenda.

      Just for laughs, a couple years ago I signed up with Ashley Madison. While I did meet a couple women that way, my “hit” rate was waaaaay lower than I got from more traditional online dating (ha, now there’s such a thing as “traditional online dating”). The ones who did meet up with me said they got hammered with solicitations – 50+ a day even when they didn’t post pictures.

      FWIW both of those women ended up getting divorced. They were looking for sex as a last-gasp effort to get satisfaction within the confines of a dead marriage.

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  3. Rbv Says:

    Attractive and even semi-attractive women can get laid anytime they want, for sure. The 1’s through the 4’s can’t (assuming 10 is the best). I don’t live in Manhattan but believe it or not, there are plenty of 1-4’s out here in middle America…probably half the population is unattractive. More than that in some places.

    I think casual sex for a woman means that you get t/g and if there is a mutual attraction then sex might be in the cards. She’s not looking to go through some drawn out, medieval courtship ritual to obtain sex and wants a guy to know that upfront. It doesn’t mean swap pics, trade some texts then hop then hop in the sack, which is really just a guy fantasy anyway.

    Btw, attraction is important to men. We sit around the local bar all the time and ask each other the inevitable question, “would you _______ her ?”

    You might be surprised at the number to which we say nope, no way.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      You might be surprised at the number to which we say nope, no way.
      Such discussions are a juvenile way for guys to boast that they can do “better” than the gal in question. In most cases when a guy says “no way”, he would likely do so as long as the others wouldn’t find out. See also: moped.

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      • rbv Says:

        Well Crotch Rocket, you know what they say. Seeing is believing.

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      • Chester Says:

        We’ve all laughed at the moped joke. But guys vary to a large degree as to how far below their league they would go to sex a woman. Some guys will drop to rock bottom for the sex; and others won’t lower their standard much at all – they want to feel attracted to the girl.

        Interestingly, the ones that go rock bottom are usually the guys who are more successful with women. Not only because they have more experience, but because they don’t get too attached and have that aloofness that women find attractive.

        As for the women, that too depends on how far below their league they want to go for the sex. If their standards are high, then no, they can’t just get laid any night.. We see these women with tons of guys giving them attention, but these women see these men as being un-sex-worthy. As someone pointed our earlier, the women who are at the bottom end of attraction, have very little or no room to drop their standards so they also can’t just get laid.

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  4. Speedy Says:

    Trying out a new iPad or something Moxie?

    Anyhow, while nearly all men believe women can get laid whenever they want, some women disagree with this rather vociferously. But a recent experience on a left-leaning newspaper website explained this for me. There was one story where a couple of women were banging on about how actually no, women can’t get laid whenever they want, they are just the same as men. At the same time(ish) there was also a story about harassment. The same women who’d just said she couldn’t get laid on demand claimed (and this is her exaggeration, not mine) “You sexist men don’t understand, I can’t even walk to work in the morning without a dozen men asking to sleep with me – there should be more laws”.

    Same account, same person.

    So I disagree with the quote actually because it seems being able to have sex with the wrong men doesn’t count for women. Which is why the argument about this will always go round in circles of mutual misunderstanding. So I disagree with the quote, makes sense to me that if the wrong men are invisible, why not advertise for the right one? Nothing suspect about that at all.

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    • Bree Says:

      Great. Another dude who thinks women should feel flattered by sexual harassment. Sorry but sexual hostility from men on the street is not PROOF that women have it easier when it comes to having *satisfying* sexual experiences. Quite the contrary. Unless you consider RAPE to be sex, which unfortunately many men don’t seem to know the difference. I’m upset by the number of up-thumbs your comment received.

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  5. Crotch Rocket Says:

    If [some men] can’t take a woman’s choice to seek casual sex at face value then that speaks to their pre-conceived ideas about women in general.
    Sorry, but I’ve just had too many experiences with women who said they were looking for casual sex but were actually looking for something more than that, usually what I would classify as “short-term dating”. IOW, they need the trappings of a relationship to legitimize (even if only to themselves) having sex, or they’ll get drunk so they can blame the alcohol for their behavior.

    I have no problem with women actually looking for casual sex (as men define it). I just don’t accept that it actually happens because I’ve never experienced it.

    Seeking sex in some form is merely an outlier of the woman’s personality and belief system belief system.
    “Outlier.” You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    These women would not be compatible with a man who felt she should keep certain carnal desires to herself. Or they have a general mistrust of women. Either way, why bother with such men?
    I have no issue with women expressing their carnal desires; in fact, I count the general inability of women raised in our culture to communicate their sexual needs to be a serious problem. A woman who can (and does) do so competently is a prize, not someone to be scorned.

    Sure, a woman could go out to a party or a bar if they like. But what if they can’t be bothered to do that? What if they don’t have that kind of time or money?
    Any of the women I know could scroll through the contacts list on their phone and come up with at least a dozen guys who would be happy to come over and have sex with her; it requires less time and effort than ordering a pizza. That, plus the experience noted above, is why I’m suspicious of any woman who claims to be “looking for” casual sex, just like I’d be suspicious of a desert nomad who claimed to be “looking for” sand or a fisherman “looking for” water. They’re surrounded by it, as far as the eye can see in every direction!

    When some woman seek “casual” they also often seeks consistency and a sense of companionship or just rapport. But they can want those other aspects without wanting commitment. I guess the segment of men who believe that is just small?
    I have no doubt there are women looking for that. However, consistency and companionship is not part of what men define as “casual sex”, and using the wrong term can easily be interpreted as dishonest and manipulative, hence the suspicion. Describe your desires more accurately and the suspicion would go away.

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    • Matt Says:

      “Sorry, but I’ve just had too many experiences with women who said they were looking for casual sex but were actually looking for something more than that, usually what I would classify as ‘short-term dating’.”

      THIS. I’ve had this to me twice before, where the girl would start with terms like “f*** buddy” and “booty call” and then it quickly jumps to “Why aren’t you texting me every hour?!?” They might tell themselves they’re just looking for casual sex, but deep down, I don’t think that’s what it is they’re after.

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  6. D. Says:

    “I think the men who might see these women as suspect probably would have eventually rejected them anyway. If they can’t take a woman’s choice to seek casual sex at face value then that speaks to their pre-conceived ideas about women in general.”

    CrotchRocket touched on this some, but I think a lot of guys have had the experience of getting together with a girl who claimed to really just want sex, and then turned out to want more — courtship, the trappings of romance, maybe even a gradual move towards a relationship.

    Now, it could be that what’s at work there is a difference in the meaning of the term “casual sex” between men and women. For a guy, “casual sex” might literally mean just that: sex with no further expectations. You meet up, find a suitable location for the sex, and get down to business. No need for anything further. For women, it might be that “casual sex” means sex, but still with certain things happening before the sex. For SOME (not all) women, it may mean that some actions must be taken beforehand (conversation, drinks/dinner, a little getting to know the guy), while for SOME (not all) men, they may literally be satisfied with “Hi, how are you? So, back to my place? Ok. Let’s get naked.” When those two kinds of people meet, right off the bat there’s distrust of motives.

    Another reason why men don’t take women at face value is that they’ve had too many experiences with women who claimed to only want casual sex — at least on more than just a one-time basis — who eventually developed feelings and wanted more emotionally. If you’ve gone through the bait-and-switch a few times, you stop trusting it when someone says “sure, let’s just have sex.”

    I tend to think there’s also an age/experience component to this as well, with women who are more experienced and who therefore know themselves and their own boundaries better being more trustworthy when they say they want casual sex, than women who have less experience with it. But even then, “casual sex” seems to mean more like “casual dating (with sex).” That doesn’t bother me, personally, but from a guy’s perspective the two are not the same thing.

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  7. Horace Says:

    I think your notions about men who see these women as suspect speak to YOUR pre-conceived ideas about men in general. There are several reasons why a man might feel that way, and the sexism of patriarchy is just one. I don’t assume it’s a trap. It might not be entirely honest all the time, but that’s the nature of online dating anyway.

    I already take it for granted when doing online dating that for most women I meet I will be just one of many. I go on a lot of dates (when I’m in dating mode), and I’m an average dude, so I know a cute chick is just killing it. That’s just the dynamic of online dating. Everyone has a large catalog to choose from, and thus no one is really taking any one date too seriously, particularly considering that someone just a little better might be one date or one search away. For most, it’s a numbers game and they’re playing the odds. And some chicks (guys I’m sure, too) just love the attention they get from going on a lot of dates.

    To know for certain that a woman is looking for casual sex online is a turn off, because you know — per online dating dynamics — that they’re probably fucking a lot of dudes, or are at least interested in fucking a lot of dudes. I don’t want to be trivialized like that any more than a woman does ;)

    At the same time, I’m totally okay with having casual sex with someone who doesn’t have that in their profile.

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  8. Selena Says:

    “…women who are more experienced and who therefore know themselves and their own boundaries better being more trustworthy when they say they want casual sex, than women who have less experience with it. But even then, “casual sex” seems to mean more like “casual dating (with sex).” That doesn’t bother me, personally, but from a guy’s perspective the two are not the same thing.”

    Agree. I suspect in many cases when a woman says she’s looking for something casual, she is thinking in terms of casual dating with sex, rather than “just sex”.

    Most women probably can get laid anytime they want, but they don’t want to do it with men they aren’t attracted to. Since the men they are unattracted to far outnumber those they are attracted to (who are often unavailable) it doesn’t matter.

    I think what happens sometimes, is that a woman picks a guy she is attracted to believing it won’t go beyond the casual. If it becomes a consistent thing, with the companionship component, the longer it goes on, the more attached she might become. That is: the “bait and switch” thing isn’t deliberate – it’s the result of picking someone she was attracted to in the first place.

    I don’t blame men for being suspect about this possibly happening, but the deterrent is to keep casual liaisons brief. Sometimes THEY are the ones who keep it going because consistent sex and companionship is better than having to undure an indefinite dry spell. And if they are acting “boyfriendy” they are contributing to the psychological shift between casual and more- than -casual themselves.

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    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      Ha, you very succinctly described the trap. A trap is a trap regardless of whether it is deliberately set. Women say they want “no strings sex” but, when pressed ever so slightly, it turns out they want “no strings” but only with a suitor who is handsome, well-mannered, interesting and a good conversationalist, etc. In other words “no strings” … except for the following strings, terms and conditions. And, yes, these conditions just happen to match the things most women appear to want in a relationship. What a coincidence! And don’t forget all the unstated expectations that the guy will have to meet, or at least, after the fact when he disappoints. Women do not have sex just to have sex. Men know this through experience. In the words of Admiral Ackbar….

      The woman below who says she has a string of one night stands. As a man, I can’t help but wonder what she possibly gets out of it. Maybe I’m assuming what I’m trying to prove.

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      • Selena Says:

        But the men never have to follow the strings, terms and conditions if they don’t want to DMN. Again, the way to avoid “the trap” as you perceive it, is to keep casual encounters brief.

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      • Nola Says:

        As I said, I made a conscious choice (mark the word “conscious”), for a number of personal reasons. I don’t expect it to last all of my life. It works for now. Oh, and for the record I am 38, and I know what being in a long and committed relationship means.

        What do I get?
        Sexual gratification, when there is sexual chemistry. In other cases, sex. Sometimes good sex, sometimes not so good. I do have a high libido. No, a vibrator is not the same thing. Kill me.

        And to come to your other point, no-strings-attached doesn’t mean indiscriminate. I met a couple of men who decided to not take things further (you will have to ask them the real reason), and in other cases I decided against it. Because there was no sexual chemistry, because a guy smelled a bit funny, or he seemed a little bit too intense… I will sleep with a person I am attracted to, and who poses no threat to my well-being and my health. Yes, this also happens to be a subset of the qualities I have looked for in stable relationships as well. But that’s because non-threatening attitudes and attractiveness are the basis of any social interaction, as far as I am aware… ;)

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      • Marie Says:

        Oh, give me a break DMN. You act as if men don’t do the exact same thing. Some men may be more okay than a woman is having sex with someoe who is not interesting or a good conversationalist, etc. However, if they start having sex with a very attractive woman, who happens to also have a stellar personality, it’s just as likely he’ll become attached as well.

        I think we’re talking about two different types of women here. DMN – the women who set these traps – certainly they exist. But I think that Selena and Nola are talking about women who can land a boyfriend without using the casual sex trap. Yes, if you start sleeping with a woman and you are far above her league, no sh*t she’s going to try to trap you. However, if you start sleeping with a woman who is way out of your league, I don’t think it’s unreasonable that you’d end up trying to date her either.

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        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          I was riding the bus the other day. Very crowded. I’m no skinny minnie and I was sitting in a two-seat block with the only empty seat next to me. A really, really fat lady gets on and looks at the empty seat and then at me and huffed out loud, “I don’t think there’s room.” “True,” I said to her, “I didn’t design this bus. I’m just riding it.” .

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        • ML Says:

          so good

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    • Mark Says:

      Inclined to agree with Selena on most points… and the reasoning behind it.

      All the more reason of the importance of knowing who you are and what you really want and are looking for. It does help cut down on the confusion, both for you and the other person(s).

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  9. Nola Says:

    I am a woman who has been hooking up with guys casually for the last year. And by casually I mean “one night stands”. I just want to have sex, but I am not expecting, neither initiating, any contact after. It’s a conscious choice I made for many reasons.

    I can only bring my personal experience, obviously, but I think it’s quite meaningful: I exchanged messages with hundreds of guys, met around twenty of them, and actually had sex with ten or so.

    There is no uniformity in men’s reactions, but I can definitely see a pattern in the fact that all of those I had sex with never got back in contact in the first week or so, other than the “Did you make it home OK” messages. As said, I do not call, text, or email them either.
    But most of them have contacted me after a while.

    I like to think about it as the “quarantine” period. It looks like, after that, I am cool to go (btw, I decided to meet only one of them more than once).

    So, I am definitely a testimony that men are, to various extents, wary of women looking for casual sex.

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    • Curious Guy Says:

      I’m curious if you ever tried to meet men for casual sex offline in the real world? If so, how hard was it?

      I sometimes try to meet women for casual sex in the real world and most of the time I come up empty handed so I would say that it is very hard for me.

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      • Nola Says:

        No, that would be an enormous waste of time and money–and, let’s face it: way more dangerous.

        Plus, I should do that on the assumption that all men are open to have casual sex. Which is a pretty big assumption to make. Consider that I have spoken to men who are on adult dating websites, who were clearly less than comfortable with casual sex, despite their very presence on that website…

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    • The D-man Says:

      I don’t see how this refutes the idea that women can have sex whenever they want. You say you exchanged messages, but how many of those convos were initiated by you vs. them? And if you did initiate, did you make it clear you were just looking for sex?

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  10. LaMotta Says:

    I am all for women selecting the CS option on an “equality” basis. However, the fact is that socially they are made to feel shame for that. So that’s always going on in the background. Then there’s the second-order effect where a guy observing this, even though he’s (1) ok with casual sex, and (2) OK with her wanting that, has to wonder “what’s unusual about her that drives her to select that option”? That could either be read as just very independent minded, or some sort of personality flaw that has a negative connotation.

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  11. Marie Says:

    Someone mentioned before that men and women look at casual sex differently. I couldn’t agree more. I think that most women would prefer a ‘friends with benefits’ situation over a booty call situation (unless of course, they are involved with someone and want something on the side), but that might not necessarily mean they want a relationship. Most women like attention too much to get none outside of a bedroom! I know this had historically been the case for me. The few of these I’ve been in have been after a breakup; I wanted the attention and I loved the sex, but did not want, nor was ready for a relationship. I think a quote in a profile is probably suspect, but not necessarily. Someone working 60 hours/week might not have the time to go chat up a guy at a bar.

    As for bait-and-switch – women do that a lot, but remember, so do men. Booty calls are different than FWB, but I also think that when a man finds a woman he can be friends with, is attracted to, and who is truly laid back enough to want casual sex with no drama and no strings attached, it will often be him who starts to wonder ‘why am I not dating this person’. In my experience, this never was the intent, but it’s what’s happened. Maybe the women who ended up wanting relationships didn’t start that way, but over time grew attached.

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    • D. Says:

      I can see where some guys might get attached in a FWB situation, although I suspect it’s a little less common. But that’s not really what I was getting at in terms of “bait-and-switch.” The scenario where an FWB situation turns into one party wanting more is less about bait-and-switch and more about, as you described, people changing their minds.

      The true bait-and-switch is more like when a girl says to a guy “Why don’t we just have sex?” then follows up with “You know, it doesn’t HAVE to JUST be sex…” or something like “Great, and after sex we can cuddle on your couch, and maybe get brunch together, and….” Oh, I see. So it’s “just sex” except for the part where it’s all the trappings of a relationship otherwise? Got it.

      I think what happens is this. The bait-and-switch scenario happens far more often when you’re younger — like, early to late 20s — because at that stage of experience, the girl thinks she can change the guy’s mind, and the guy thinks he can take the girl at face value in spite of maybe even already knowing she wants more. Like, he knows she wants more than a relationship, but when she says “Let’s just have casual sex,” he thinks she’ll somehow be able to ignore or turn off that part of her that wants more. Then they both have a go at casual sex, and it ends up a dismal failure because, surprise, she wanted more and isn’t too pleased when he doesn’t call her after banging her, and he ends up frustrated because he thought everyone was on the same page with this and why is she now giving him shit for not wanting more?

      When that has happened a couple times, guys become conditioned to assume the worst when a woman says “So, casual sex, then?” They assume “Oh, great. Another bait-and-switch scenario, huh? No thanks.”

      In fact, what may have happened is that, through experience, the woman in question may have learned that what she enjoys is casual dating (which, again, isn’t the same as casual sex), and REALLY DOESN’T ACTUALLY WANT A RELATIONSHIP.

      As I see it, casual dating is just that: casual dating. You go out on dates, you have sex, you see each other maybe every couple of weeks or so, but there’s no expectation of exclusivity or anything beyond that (cohabitation, marriage, kids, whatever). It’s two people who want to occasionally go on a date and fuck each other. That’s not the same thing as “casual sex” alone, where you show up, get naked, have sex, and one of you leaves.

      Nor, for that matter, is it the same as FWB. With FWB, I think the danger is that there’s actually a greater level of emotional connection and intimacy, perhaps. You’re friends. And you have sex. Chances are you were friends well before you ever had sex. So, because the line has now been crossed, the emotional connection that forms the foundation of the friendship gets confused by one of the parties, and they start wanting an actual relationship. Chances are you’re also seeing each other more often in a FWB scenario than you would in casual dating.

      With FWB, there’s a fear of some big emotional confrontation down the line when you have to either give up the friendship, or at least take a hiatus from seeing each other because one of you needs to “get over” the other. With casual dating, you probably aren’t getting close enough in the first place, but even if you do, you just…take a break for a while. No big scene, no confrontation, you just stop calling each other. And if you want to get back in touch later, you do. No harm done. It was just casual dating, after all.

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      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        In fact, what may have happened is that, through experience, the woman in question may have learned that what she enjoys is casual dating (which, again, isn’t the same as casual sex), and REALLY DOESN’T ACTUALLY WANT A RELATIONSHIP.
        The problem with that explanation is a woman’s definition of “casual dating” seems to fall within a man’s definition of “relationship”.

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        • India Says:

          In my experience, men actually gets more “attached” to fwb situations as it takes more work for them to find low maintenance and regular sex. It is Very true that this is much easier to accomplish for women, and hence the female actually handles the termination of such a situation with less care. It is much easier for the woman to move on and find a similar arrangement with someone else.

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        • D. Says:

          @Crotch Rocket,

          I’ll put it this way. A relationship involves what goes into casual dating. But casual dating doesn’t have everything that a relationship does.

          True, you share meals and conversation with someone, plus sex when casually dating and when in a relationship.

          But casual dating doesn’t involve any suggestion that things will continue. You have no idea if the person you’re casually dating will be free or even interested next week, let alone that you’re going to see them. With a relationship, there’s at least a presumption that, absent conflicting plans, you’re probably gonna see that person.

          Casual dating typically doesn’t include contact with the person outside of setting up the next date. Relationships usually involve some kind of communication or interaction just for the sake of interacting with the other person, rather than “So, wanna go see that band on Friday? Yeah? Cool. See ya then. Bye.”

          Casual dating also doesn’t include any notions of exclusivity. You could be casually dating multiple people at the same time. Notions of polyamory/”open relationships” notwithstanding, you’re usually not doing that in a relationship (unless you’re cheating, I suppose).

          Lastly, and most importantly, casual dating involves a totally different level of emotional connection and attachment. There’s no suggestion that things will develop in that regard or towards any kind of “landmark” moments like moving in together, marriage, family, any of that stuff. Relationships typically do, or if they don’t involve the landmark moments, they at least involve a greater level of emotional attachment.

          Now, I suppose if your bar for “relationship” is “did we do anything other than take our clothes off and fuck,” then yeah, pretty much anything that isn’t “casual sex” falls into “relationship” status, but…I dunno. I guess I see some gradations in there. :)

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          • Selena Says:

            Good, good post.

            I’ll add that people who want to date casually often don’t say so upfront. You learn to figure it out for yourself.

            “Casual dating typically doesn’t include contact with the person outside of setting up the next date. “

            I’ve found that to be the big tip off between someone who is interested in dating me, or just dating casually.

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          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            But casual dating doesn’t involve any suggestion that things will continue. You have no idea if the person you’re casually dating will be free or even interested next week, let alone that you’re going to see them. With a relationship, there’s at least a presumption that, absent conflicting plans, you’re probably gonna see that person. .

            None of this is true. Casual relationships can take various forms.Every casual relationship I’ve been in involved regular dates every week, sometimes up to two or three. Dinners. weekends together, movies, cooking together, etc. Communication is consistent. There’s still emotional intimacy. There just isn’t expressed exclusivity or commitment. Both parties are clear upfront about expectations

            It’s amazing to me how some of you can have so much to say about this topic while at the same time making it abundantly clear you have no actual experience with the topic.

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            • Selena Says:

              Perhaps because the casual relationships we have been in took a different form than yours?

              Mine have been typical of the quote you pulled from D’s post. Your description of casual dating is more typical of see-how-it-goes dating in my experience.

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            • D. Says:

              Moxie,

              Interesting. Your description of “casual dating” sounds a lot like an “open relationship” to me, which I see as something different. Perhaps, as Selena points out, neither of our experiences or definitions is universal. As DMN points out, it would seem that these different definitions of terms and experiences are the source of the miscommunication.

              We’ve got Crotch Rocket who seems to be suggesting that anything other than “Hi, take your clothes off” = relationship. We’ve got other people in this thread saying that “casual sex” means more than just that, but something less than a relationship. We’ve got me saying that “casual dating” is somewhere in between “just sex” and “relationship,” but lacks many of the things that would go into a relationship. And we’ve got you saying that “casual dating” is…well, what sounds to me like an “open relationship” or “relationship lite” (all the aspects of a relationship, minus the exclusivity), or “see-how-it-goes” dating to Selena.

              Doesn’t this pretty much illustrate the problem? Nobody seems to be on the same page about the terminology they’re using, which is probably a big part of why when some women say “just sex” they’re apparently talking about something quite different from what many men are thinking the term means. And why when either party goes in assuming theirs is the only definition, they end up saying “WTF?! Were we not clear about this?!” Apparently, no, we really weren’t clear on any of it, even though we both said the same words.

              Maybe the lesson here is that none of us can safely assume we know what the other person is saying when they use these terms unless, as you say, both parties are explicit up front about what they expect to happen — and that means going beyond simply saying “So, we’re just dating casually, right?” or “Just sex, right?”

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              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                Maybe the real problem is that people over-analyze things down to the minutiae just so they can write manifesto-like comments and sound experienced.

                Jesus. How does it take 500 words to say “I think we all just have different definitions of certain terms?” Dating is not hard. It’s not. Nor is it difficult to get laid or have a casual/open relationship. What makes it dicey is when people have to deconstruct every aspect of a date or relationship and “define” it. Jesus. Go out and date, people. Stop over-thinking everything. These last two threads have been ridiculous with all of the analysis.

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            • Marie Says:

              I have to agree with Selena and D. on this one. That does not sound like casual dating to me, that sounds like a relationship sans committment. It sounds like a whole lot of effort to spend on a person you aren’t interested in having a relationship with. I’m not even sure where I’d find time to date other people hanging out with one guy 2-3 times per week! What I’m thinking of for casual dating is more along the ‘I’m bored, let’s grab a beer and have sex’ lines.

              As for DMN’s point – that is fairly funny now that you point it out! It’s my fault, I started this thread. It came from the point when I hear “casual sex”, I think “let’s hang out and bang”. If all I wanted was to get naked and bang with a guy I don’t know, I’d just have a one night stand with the hottest guy I could find.

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          • DrivingMeNutes Says:

            How did we go from “casual sex” to “casual dating.” Anyway, if “casual sex” means different things to different people, or if men and women have vastly different interpretations about the concept, then that is yet another argument for not checking off “casual sex.” Back to the point, if your audience thinks a word means something other than what you intend, that is the definition of miscommunication.

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            • DrivingMeNutes Says:

              PS I hope the irony that this discussion itself moved from “just sex” to “causal dating” to “causal relationships” is not lost on anyone.

              Q.E.D.

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  12. arbee Says:

    I do agree that it is more common for a man to be less discriminating in criteria for casual sex than a woman. And if that’s the case, it’s smart to use the internet, where she can choose men that are the quality or type she wants. There is a much bigger selection there.

    When I want casual sex, I still want it with a decent guy and I’m usually turned off by bar flies and drunk frat boys and other types often there for the taking at the bars or equivalent. Online I can find many more men I find attractive for different reasons and that’s more appealing. Any guy who thinks it is “suspect” is not someone I would want. It’s usually clear who are the more secure guys who don’t have these formulas and biases to rule out women.

    And by the way, there are plenty of men out there who are “looking for a more-than-sexual relationship should one present itself” too. Men have casual sex all the time while keeping an eye out for long-term relationships and getting married. It’s a double standard to think otherwise and simply not the case.

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  13. Kurt Says:

    Of course a woman can get laid whenever she wants unless she is ridiculously fat. And this is precisely why men don’t respect women who sleep around – men know how little effort it takes for a woman to do this.

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    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      men don’t respect women who sleep around
      Correction: Most men have no problem with women who sleep around. However, pretty much all men are suspicious of women who advertise that they sleep around.

      Imagine someone who says, “I like to breathe.” Well, we all do, so why are you telling me that?

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      • Kurt Says:

        Are you serious? Poll 100 men and ask them if they would think less of a woman if they found out that she had a very promiscuous past. I think that most men would think less of the woman and it is difficult to believe that most men would have “no problem” with this.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          I have what some would consider a “very promiscuous past”, and I sure as heck don’t tell dates that because I know how it would be perceived–and that’s speaking as a guy. Even my best friend has no clue about my number. Any reasonably smart woman will do the same, and for the same reason.

          If you’re not oversharing in the first place, there is no basis for others to judge you.

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        • The D-man Says:

          I’m in the 1%.

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          • HammersAndNails Says:

            Agreed. Unless I found out she’s slept with her boss for a promotion, or with guys for money/gifts, or on film or something, I’m not hugely concerned with it.

            …Again though, if you find out a girl is promiscuous, you just found out two things, that’s she’s promiscuous AND that she lacks discretion.

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    • Speedy Says:

      Slight exaggeration, but you can blame your Frisky types for this.

      What a man has to do to get laid:
      – Invest many years in getting a good education and perform well in exams
      – Become professionally successful and attain commensurate seniority
      – …while mainting tight control over work/life balance
      – Amass significant wealth and make wise investments
      – Develop refined tastes in fashion, food, drink, music and film.
      – Work out at least three times a week over many years
      – Drive a good car
      – Own property
      – Have a rounded personality and demonstrably wide ranging interests
      – Amass a network of influential and interesting friends offering a range of social events and situations

      What a woman has to do to get laid:
      – Turn up

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      • India Says:

        “Perform well on exams??” right,only guys who did well on their SATs get laid.

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        • Speedy Says:

          “Educated” and “professional” as standard demands does tend to imply exams were passed.

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          • India Says:

            So which is it you want? You guys whine about women for being too “selective”, and yet, you Diss women who are open with their sexuality “sluts!”. You want to feel like the special unicorn that a woman has only ever had sex with, and yet you moan about how you have to have to meet certain standards to get laid. Pick one: if you want get laid without jumping through hoops, don’t slut- shame the same women who are straight forward and will sleep with you. If you want to feel like a special unicorn, yes, keep dissing some women for being open minded sexually but stop whining about women who have standards.

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            • LostSailor Says:

              Talk about whining.

              if you want get laid without jumping through hoops, don’t slut- shame the same women who are straight forward and will sleep with you.

              It’s not that black-and-white. Most men are quite happy to bed willing women regardless of their promiscuous past, assuming she didn’t pick up any bugs along the way. But most men will also not necessarily consider them good marriage material. But the larger point is that there is a happy medium between women having unrealistic “standards” and a woman who brags about pulling a train with the NY Rangers. As CrotchRocket correctly notes above, while there are tells to get an idea of a woman’s sexual history, she won’t be labeled a slut if she is discrete.

              Pick one

              No.

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            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              You guys whine about women for being too “selective”,
              I don’t recall any men whining about that. What we’ve all said is that if women want a relationship, they need to be realistic about who would be interested in one given what they have to offer. If being picky is working for you, then go on with yo’ bad self.

              you Diss women who are open with their sexuality “sluts!”.
              I don’t recall any men (i.e. past high school) calling women “sluts”; that is what women call promiscuous women. And I have already pointed out several times in this discussion that the true problem is oversharing, not being sexually confident itself, and that goes for both men and women.

              You want to feel like the special unicorn that a woman has only ever had sex with,
              Yes, and she wants the same illusion. That’s another reason that it’s poor form to overshare–again, for both men and women. Everyone expects their partner to be great in the sack but doesn’t want to be confronted with how that happens.

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              • Selena Says:

                “You want to feel like the special unicorn that a woman has only ever had sex with,
                Yes, and she wants the same illusion. That’s another reason that it’s poor form to overshare–again, for both men and women.”

                Very much agree CR. We know our lovers aren’t virgins, but we don’t really want to hear about all their sexual experiences prior to meeting us. Sometimes people give TMI.

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            • M Says:

              Its not that you have to pick one or the other. Its two things. The first is that guys have a list of things we have to do, all of which arguably take years to achieve. The one thing the girl has to do takes minutes. I’d extend it a bit further and add that even if a guy does all those things, he might still fail to get the girl.

              The other point is that most of those things are superficial and not relevant in getting to know someone. Half of the things there I dont care at all whether I find them in a girl. Yet you still demand them of us.

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        • HammersAndNails Says:

          Half the women that write to moxie manage to slip in “good school” somewhere in their post, so quite literally, yes, guys who bombed the SAT have a harder time getting laid with all else being equal.

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      • The D-man Says:

        And don’t forget that a man must never brag about any of these things.

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      • Steve Says:

        How is this true if the mean age for males’ first time is before age 20?

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    • India Says:

      That is hardly the reason why some men dislike “slutty women”. It has nothing to do with easy or hard, everything to do that a women with choices and options in terms sexual partners can easily leave you, and she will have the experience to know whether you are any good.

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      • meh Says:

        i disagree.

        all women. yes. all women, have choices and options in terms of sexual partners and can easily leave us. fat, old, ugly, there are men out there who will have sex with them & who will marry them. so it does have to with easy & hard.

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      • Marie Says:

        Yeah, I’ve gotta agree with Kurt and meh. Most men don’t want to keep the girl that anybody can get. Not always, but most of the time when someone – man or woman – is sleeping with an abundant number of people, there are some sort of insecurity or power obsession issues involved. No fun to date.

        Even if that’s not the issue, with a promiscuous person – man or woman – for the one that ends up in a serious relationship with them, there’s always the fear that they won’t be able to change their ways for you. They used to go out, get hammered and sleep with someone 4 nights a week? Well…what about the night your ‘slutty’ bf/gf partied and forgot to call? Again, no fun. That might be just me, but I’ve been there. Haha, on a more awkward note, it also isn’t really fun to walk into a room of your sig other’s aquaintances and wonder ‘hmm, which of these people has he/she slept with?’! Frankly, I’m weary of dating a man-slut and (right or wrong) it’s much more socially acceptable to be a promiscuous male. I imagine my sentiment must be multiplied significantly from a male standpoint.

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        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          Most men don’t want to keep the girl that anybody can get.
          … and how would they know that? Again, it’s not the history, it’s the lack of discretion.

          They used to go out, get hammered and sleep with someone 4 nights a week?
          Well, that’s a bit different. Someone here once claimed he had dated 2,000 people over ~10 years. Let’s say he slept with 1 in 20 of those dates, which comes out to less than one per month. It wouldn’t be difficult to be discreet in such a case, yet the total number would shock most women if he were stupid enough to tell them.

          there’s always the fear that they won’t be able to change their ways for you.
          That’s insecurity speaking, and that’s all about you, not them.

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          • Marie Says:

            If you’re in a serious relationship with someone, eventually they’re going to figure out if you were permiscuous. You meet their friends, they’ve probably slept with a few of them. Things slip. A lot of times there’s even have that one friend that makes inappropriate jokes about other people’s sex lives thinking it’s funny. Casual dating? Nope, probably would never know. Serious relationship? Not guaranteed, but likely there will be signs.

            As for numbers on that second paragraph. Yes 100 people to sleep with is a lot and would scare most women. But from 2000 dates, I doubt only 1 in 20 led to a bedroom. Most people score more often than that. But even with the 100 – there is a high probability that person has an STD – condoms are not 100% effective. In fact, doing the math, there is about a 20% chance that person has HPV IF they used condoms 100% of the time. This doesn’t include oral sex or any other STD. That’s fairly high and maybe not a big deal for everybody, but it is something to consider.

            And yes, that is insecurity speaking, I completely agree. But if we’re completely honest, how many people are completely secure with no doubts? I’m not saying I wouldn’t date someone permiscuous, hell, I’m not even saying I wasn’t permiscuous at one point. I’m just saying it adds something else to think about.

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            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              eventually they’re going to figure out if you were permiscuous. You meet their friends, they’ve probably slept with a few of them.
              My friends are more discreet than that, but so what? Just say that they’re one of the few. The median number of partners for a man in this country is 12, so it’s not unreasonable that a woman might figure out one or two of them and that they weren’t LTRs. That’s a far cry from figuring out his true number is 100+.

              I doubt only 1 in 20 led to a bedroom. Most people score more often than that.
              I was assuming a guy with average game. Also, consider the logistics. 200 first dates per year is ~18/mo. A third (6) of those first dates turn into second dates, a third (2) of those turn into third dates, and let’s say half (1) of those result in sex. That’s 26 dates per month–plus follow-ups with date(s) who put out in previous month(s). That’s still 100+ partners over ten years. (Also, if the guy is shelling out an average of $100 per date, think about the cost!) Granted, that’s a pretty grueling schedule, but it paid off: he is now happily married to lucky bachelorette #2000.

              there is a high probability that person has an STD
              That could happen whether a person has had 1 partner or 1000. If his test results are clean, how would you know? And if they’re not, well, maybe he was just unlucky.

              how many people are completely secure with no doubts?
              Regarding my mate’s sexuality? The doubts you’ve mentioned have honestly never occurred to me. Then again, perhaps I just subconsciously filter out anyone who I’d have such concerns about; it’s hard to say. I do know that several women I’ve been in relationships with have “had a history”, but AFAIK they never cheated on me. Given the disparity in sex drives, I have always been the one to worry about; they never lacked for attention from me when they wanted it–but the reverse was rarely true.

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            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              You meet their friends, they’ve probably slept with a few of them.Things slip. A lot of times there’s even have that one friend that makes inappropriate jokes about other people’s sex lives thinking it’s funny.

              Um..what? I don’t know. Maybe I just have lucked out and never associated with such low quality people…but is this actually a thing? Like, it happens so regularly that it’s actually something to watch out for? Who associates with people like this? Who keeps ex-lovers so close that they socialize with them regularly? Maybe date people who don’t hang out with ex-lovers regularly?

              But even with the 100 – there is a high probability that person has an STD – condoms are not 100% effective.

              Again, what is this fuckery? What are you talking about? You do realize that most adults aren’t this obvious or forthcoming about their sexual history, right?

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              • Marie Says:

                Phew, sensitive topic for you I see.

                All I said is that I’d be weary of dating a guy who was promiscuous and gave my reasons. Some are based upon experience, while the STD part is based upon both the number that CR stated in his reply (1/20th of 2000 = 100) and basic math. My point there was that someone who is promiscuous is more likely to have an STD. I just used numbers to illustrate. Now, maybe you don’t agree. I have no problem with that. I’m going to be weary anyways.

                Yes, I’ve run into the asshole friend. They suck, but they exist. And as for people not telling their histories, true – people don’t usually do that. However, people do have reputations. It isn’t hard to figure out what somebody’s reputation is like.

                Granted, if I were in a relationship with someone and learned this, I probably wouldn’t jump ship. Most men I’ve dated, however, I met either in college, grad school, through mutual friends or at a place I frequent. Maybe you’re focused on online dating, which is huge now – and different than what I’m speaking of. 20% of couples who were married last year met online (yes, I looked it up). That still leaves 80% who didn’t. If you have a previous connection to somebody through some sort of mutual commonality, chances are you’ve heard of their reputation before you even go on the first date.

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                • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                  Phew, sensitive topic for you I see.

                  Not at all. The scenarios presented just don’t happen often amongst mature people. If they did, I’d be less concerned about my partner’s sexual history and more concerned about his poor taste in friends. You’re focusing on the person’s possible sexual history and judging them for that, yet you don’t seem to care at all about the company they keep. That should concern you far more than the possibility of getting an STD.

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                  • Marie Says:

                    The scenarios presented don’t happen amongst mature people? So, people don’t have reputations amongst colleagues, friends and acquaintances? You are right about the asshole friend, I agree there. But that was just one (and the least likely) scenario. Speaking in terms of online dating, reputation is irrevelent. But in face to face encounters, you’re likely to hear some stories.

                    Again, I said I’d be weary, not that I’d discount someone because of it. It is just a trait that makes a man less attractive to me.

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                    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                      Less attractive? Or intimidating?

                      No, those scenarios don’t play out amongst mature adults. Mature adults don’t reveal sensitive information regarding a friend’s past or personal life.Most people have better things to discuss. If I were at a party with my boyfriend and someone came up to me and made some passing remark about his past, I’d brush it off as poor form on their part. Not on my guy’s part. Someone who does something like that has an agenda, and I do what I can to avoid such people.

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  14. Curious Guy Says:

    Have any women reading this actually went to a bar with the specific purpose of meeting an attractive man for casual sex?

    I am very curious about the female perspective on this regarding how easy or hard it is for a woman to find a desirable man in a bar to go home with? I’m wondering about what difficulties a woman faces in this situation and how she makes her interest known while trying to avoid any sort of embarrassment.

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  15. Howard Says:

    We men love to roll this pony out to make the point as to why we should have a spare tire just in case we get a flat. The spare tire being the woman on the side and the flat, being suddenly dumped.

    But deep down we know it’s bullshit. We use this type of crap to justify those questionable things we do.

    A woman is just not looking to have sex with any guy. She wants to have sex, yes, but only with that guy she thinks is amazing. And just like men cannot get sex easily, she has enormous problems finding what she really wants. I daresay, she has a far harder time getting what she really wants. Most men are completely fine doing, friends with benefits and jump offs. Women keep trying but, they are just hard-wired to be a little or in some cases, a lot dissatisfied with such casual encounters.

    Blame the overabundance of prolactin and oxytocin women have vs. the overabundance of testosterone that men have. Human biochemistry has a lot to do with the urges we have at times,

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