How Much Should a Guy Give Without A Woman Reciprocating?

Hey, Moxie!

I’ve got a question for you that, I think, would be pretty fitting for your blog. While I am no longer in this predicament (everything worked out!), it seems like a common enough problem that others might be going through right now. The text is below:

I met a woman on OkCupid two weeks ago. We’ve been spending quite a lot of time together; all of the six dates we’ve gone on so far have been long and a lot of fun, and we really enjoy each others company. It didn’t take long before we started doing “new couple-” like things, like holding hands/each other and kissing/making out…but she’s shot down every attempt I’ve made at going to the next step and staying the night with her.

I’ve stopped seeing other people to start seeing her and am really excited to keep this going, but I am afraid I’ll have to wait months before we get intimate. I really do not want to do this nor do I want to pressure her into doing something she isn’t ready for. What do you think I should do?

Thanks!

Brian, 25, NYC

MOXIE’S EDIT: I asked Brian how this worked itself out and he said that he stayed at her place this past weekend and had sex. He also said that he told the woman in question, a couple dates earlier,  that he had stopped dating other women. She did not ask him to stop dating other people.

If you were a little older I might roll my eyes and suggest you re-think whether you want to continue dating her. But if you’re 25, she’s likely that age or younger, and therefore her behavior sounds reasonable. If it worked for you and didn’t cause you too much second guessing, then hooray. Crisis averted. You informed her that you were only interested in dating her. Two dates later she let you stay over.

Next time, though, I’m not sure you want to be so forth coming about that so soon.

You and she have only been dating a couple of weeks. In those two weeks you saw each other 6 times. You’re a single gal’s wet dream. And that’s the problem. I think making yourself available is key. But 6 dates in two weeks and swearing off other women and then telling her? Yeah, you made it a little too easy for her. By all means stick around. Just don’t tip your hand in case you meet someone who could take advantage of your patience.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with deciding to focus on one person after 6 dates. I think 3 dates a week might be pushing it that early on. I usually cap it at two. Yes, be available. But be smart about it. 3 days a week says, “I don’t have much going on in my life and I might become clingy.” Not only is the appearance of the lack of options unattractive, but getting too familiar too quickly might make you overly dependent.

I just wouldn’t tell someone that, especially when they weren’t reciprocating interest in the way I prefer.  It’s a give and take process. Women know that men want physical reciprocation of the boobie/blowjob kind. She probably knew you wanted more than hand holding and kissing after a couple of dates. What you should have done was pulled back, and not make yourself more accessible. If she wants to take her time, that’s perfectly acceptable. But that doesn’t mean you should become her lap dog.  You played right into her hands.

I know some women will say that, just by agreeing to go out with him, she was reciprocating. That’s precious. But that’s not enough. You need to show appreciation. Pay a check, organize and plan the date, ask him out, etc. Yes, of course, they want sex, too. Guys will gladly accept other gestures as they wait for things to go in that direction. They’ll be annoyed, but their annoyance will be mild compared to how they’ll feel if they’re paying for everything and making all the plans and overtures and getting nothing but a kiss on the cheek. If anything, think of paying for a date as buying time until you can have sex without fearing your friends will talk behind your back.

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77 Responses to “How Much Should a Guy Give Without A Woman Reciprocating?”

  1. Greg Figueroa Says:

    It’s interesting that he felt entitled because he made her the focus in two weeks. It’s like the girl who gives “110%” so early on and can’t believe the guy is giving less. I’m sorry holding hands and making out is so basic. Granted, I’m not sure if she was teasing with hour long make-outs and dry humping and acting chaste when Brian wants more.

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  2. yb Says:

    lap dog? really?
    a man wants sex. a woman wants exclusivity. what is wrong with trading?

    i wouldn’t want to sleep with a guy sleeping with other women, however i wouldn’t ask him for exclusivity after 2 weeks. he knew what he wanted and what he was willing to give to get it. no games. sounds ideal.

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  3. LostSailor Says:

    What you should have done was pulled back, and not make yourself more accessible….Guys will gladly accept other gestures as they wait for things to go in that direction.

    This.

    Six dates in two weeks is pushing it a bit. Moxie’s right about being too available. And she’s also right that as long as a guy has the firm sense that things are moving in the right direction, he’ll wait, but women need to show that things are moving in that direction, not just pay, uh, lip service…

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  4. AnnieNonymous Says:

    I’m far from a prude and a bit older than 25, but I wouldn’t even consider sleeping with a guy after two weeks if I was in full dating mode. There are different standards for one-nighters (where you don’t care about never seeing the person again) and legit relationships (where you’re building up trust and, since you like the person, getting a feel for how likely he is to maintain the dynamic after he’s gotten the sex he wanted). It’s worrisome that this guy is getting impatient for sex after only two weeks but is slow to call this girl his girlfriend (which it seems like is what she was after).

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    • GManJamin Says:

      Hate to break it to you, but guys hate this. Don’t have double standards like this. It makes men feel like chumps if and when they figure this out about you. And believe me, men are on the look out for things that tip this off. Have sex or don’t have sex is totally up to you just be somewhat consistent.

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      • mindstar Says:

        We absolutely hate that behavior. Look at if from the guy’s perspective. Let’s say 2 dates a week over 3 or 4 weeks. In NYC that’s about $450 to $600. Assuming no following by the woman of Moxie’s advice to show interest/appreciation to wit: plan a date, pick up the check, accelerating physical affection the guy is left in the same boat as the man in the old Kink’s song who’s spent a lot of money “all for a cuddle and a peck on the cheek”. Now how will the guy feel if he learns that this woman would sleep with a guy she just met without any thought becase “there are different standards for one-nighters”???? He’ll feel used and taken advantage of. I can just imagine the conversation. Oh sweetheart I “don’t care about never seeing the person again” thats why I had sex with him three hours after meeting him. But I care about you so just keep planning and paying for everything with no reciprocity on my part and eventually I’ll come around. Like GMan said have sex or don’t but be consistent in your behavior.

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      • Marie Says:

        Obviously men hate this, but they also forget there is another dynamic to deal with too. For a lot of people, having sex works as a catalyst for emotional attachment. After a one night stand, it isn’t likely that either party will leave being emotionally attached. But if I’m talking to a guy for a couple of weeks then hook up, it’s likely that I’ll leave feeling more of a connection. From my experience and observation, men don’t stop seeing a woman because she puts out – they stop seeing her because her behavior towards them changes after she does. This is not an applicable scenerio for a one night stand.

        Maybe these women aren’t trying to take advantage of you, but are rather trying to keep some sort of emotional detachment to avoid becomming too invested too soon.

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        • GManJamin Says:

          This does not really make sense. Sex brings attachment when you are in a relationship but not when you are not. I have a solution then, have sex on the first night with everyone.

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          • Marie Says:

            I’m sorry. I must have missed the memo that you can’t form an attachment without being in a relationship. My bad.

            Sex can bring attachment whenever someone has feelings for their counterpart, regardless of whether they are in a relationship or not. You can become attached without having sex as well. My comment says that sex can be (not always – but CAN BE) a catalyst (catalyst means that it is an agent that speeds up a particular reaction or noticable change) for emotional attachment (the formation of). Sometimes this attachment isn’t even real, nor are the feelings associated with it. But sex, especially great sex, can cause confusion between love and lust. Especially among women who are early/mid 20s.

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            • GManJamin Says:

              ” sex can be (not always – but CAN BE) a catalyst (catalyst means that it is an agent that speeds up a particular reaction or noticable change) for emotional attachment (the formation of). Sometimes this attachment isn’t even real, nor are the feelings associated with it. But sex, especially great sex, can cause confusion between love and lust. Especially among women who are early/mid 20s.”

              Then why do women take chances with one night stands?

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              • Marie Says:

                Because we also enjoy sex. And because we’re drawn to them in an animalistic way that we can’t/don’t want to resist. Usually this has to do with them being incredibly good looking or charming.

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                • GManJamin Says:

                  So you will have sex on the first date if a guy is hot enough. Guys that are not to that point you will make wait for them to prove thier worth to you. Hey, you might even deem these guys worthy of marriage. But sex on the first date, NOOOO!!!

                  Can’t you see why average guys hate this? You might want to marry us but not have sex with us on the first date because we are not hot enough for you.

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                  • AnnieNonymous Says:

                    Why is sex that important?

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                    • HammersAndNails Says:

                      Do you lack the empathy to see how what you just said is a knife in the heart to the guy that actually liked you and took you out that you denied sex?

                      There is no clearer or more pointed way to deliver a message to a man, and you can talk to him till you are blue in the face but it means nothing when your actions speak so much louder.

                      Allowing a guy to know this, or giving him any hint of suspicion that you pull this is at your own peril.

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                    • LostSailor Says:

                      You’re married, AnnieNonymous,aren’t you….?

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                    • AnnieNonymous Says:

                      So I should have sex to him just to make him feel better, even if I don’t want to?

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                    • LostSailor Says:

                      So I should have sex to him just to make him feel better, even if I don’t want to?

                      W.T.F.?

                      Who the hell ever said you should do that? No one.

                      And no one should ever have sex with someone when they don’t want to just to make the other person feel better.

                      Sex is important to most normal people. Sex is important in most normal relationships to most normal people.

                      That you think sex isn’t important and think anyone is advocating having sex when you don’t want to is precisely what led me to conclude that you’re married. If so, I pity your husband. If not, I pity any man who is foolish enough to date you…

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                    • AnnieNonymous Says:

                      Lost Sailor –

                      I was responding to HammersandNails’ assertion that when a woman doesn’t want to have sex, it’s a “knife through the heart” of the guy who wanted it. That’s super dramatic, and yes it does imply that the sex is owed. Any call for empathy in a situation like this is manipulative. What about his empathy for the woman who doesn’t want to have sex yet? Whose emotions get to be paramount here? The problem with this debate is that it’s being approached as if this one hypothetical girl is this one hypothetical guy’s only option. It’s also a problem that you seem to be assuming that women don’t date with potential sex in mind. Just because we’re waiting doesn’t mean we don’t want it. I still think it’s a little ridiculous to say that your heart has absolutely been broken if this woman you’ve only known for two weeks hasn’t slept with you yet. There’s a 50% chance she was on her period for one of those weeks. Give her a minute to sort out her feelings and realize that if she’s still going out with you, she really does want to have sex with you. Just not yet.

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                    • LostSailor Says:

                      Well, then, you missed the point completely and obviously jumped to an unwarranted conclusion.

                      Based on what you wrote above, you’re perfectly fine with jumping into bed with a rando you just met and who likely doesn’t care anything for you, but you’ll make the guy who does care for you and is making the effort to date you wait for weeks or longer. You lack empathy when you can’t seem to understand that men find your behavior hurtful. And then you somehow turn that around to the idea you should have sex when you don’t want it.

                      Don’t have sex when you don’t want to. But don’t expect most guys to stick around while you sort out your feelings, especially if he even suspects that you’ve been jumping the bones of the rando but will put him off. You’re right about one thing, there are other options and that’s where he’ll be going.

                      You only make it worse by saying that you want sex but will still make him wait. With the game-playing you advocate, I still pity the man who is foolish enough to date you.

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                  • Marie Says:

                    So, a woman’s looks or charm have nothing to do with whether you want to sleep with her or not?

                    Here’s the thing. If a girl wants to have sex with you, she will. If she doesn’t, she won’t. If she hasn’t had sex with you and you don’t want to wait for her to be ready to sleep with you, stop taking her out. Just like she can choose whether she wants to jump into bed with you or not, YOU can decide whether to spend money on her or not.

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                    • GManJamin Says:

                      I agree with everything you just said. I am just pointing out the fact that men feel like chumps, get mad and might break up with you if you have double standards for guys that have one night stand material (aka as being really hot but unstable) vs. long-term relationship material (ok in looks but stable). If your goal is long-term relationship/marriage, don’t let it slip that you have these double standards. Better yet, don’t have them at all. Don’t have one night stands!!! Sex means a lot to the average guy. No man really wants to feel like he had to work for something that you gave to another guy for free. If he finds this out, in his eyes you have just become something less and not such a great prize as before.

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                • VJ Says:

                  Notwithstanding the likelihood that the OP’s letter is perhaps not the best example of this situation, we’ve arrived at some fundamental ‘failure to communicate’ here.

                  This whole scenario? “So you will have sex on the first date if a guy is hot enough. Guys that are not to that point you will make wait for them to prove thier worth to you. Hey, you might even deem these guys worthy of marriage”…

                  Is just about the strongest set of Negative Reinforcement for the behavior you want encourage possible. And many people do not seem to be able to ‘get this’. Mostly from women too, strangely enough.

                  The whole, ‘If he’s truly worthy, he’ll wait’ supposition Assumes that these Men are really Boys that you can and should control better than the yes, ‘zipless f*cks’ you’ll still occasionally enjoy from the better looking barflies. Bad boys propagate, ‘good guys’ wait! Yep, as Always, It’s Your Perfect Right to Do So! It’s also within the rights of ‘decent men’ to reconsider dating anyone who’d hold such egregiously dangerously self serving rationalizations for their otherwise reckless behavior.

                  So no one’s telling anyone when to have sex with whom, not exactly. But if you see your date that you’re ‘going steady with’ or whom you consider your ‘exclusive’ GF drag some studly looking piece of meat back to her apartment/ alt ‘venue’ for a ‘try-on’, they’ve got every right to think a bit less of you. The Opposite would Also be true for the guys too of course.

                  Again this has some age graded ‘expectations’ too. Seemingly all fair in love & war’ in your 20’s, but by your 30’s this already has become ‘déclassé’ and indicative of a lush louche behavior. Anyone searching for a serious mate might be pretty cautious with someone of either gender who’s perfected such a touching display of outlandish narcissism. Reliable parents and wives & husbands are seldom formed from such souls & conceits. At least not easily and usually not for long. Cheers, ‘VJ’

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                  • India Says:

                    Most people – men or women – have had one night stands. Most people – men or women – have has physical relationships people based on physical attraction all the while knowing they are not relationship material. Many people who you think are good wife’s as mothers have done it (your mother may have:).
                    Instead of whining about it (“women who bang hot dudes are evil”), hit the gym. people are more likely to have sex with you if you are hot – relationship material or not. Shocker.

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                    • VJ Says:

                      Like I said, this may be all about age graded expectations here. And prportionality. If you want to be married to some one worthy of your trust? You’ll likely need to search beyond those one night stands. All I was saying was that the seriousness of purpose would be undermined by continuing such behavior on into your 30s blithely unaware that it can and wil affect the likihood that you’ll be able to attract a quality mate.

                      So this has little to do with the straw man argument of ‘everyone has had one night stands’ or the equally absurd claim ‘women’s are evil’ nonsense. Yes more people need to hit the gym. Still it’s true that if you’re overly enamoured of ‘the party life’ & ONS well into your 30’s & 40’s AND you still expect and desire to be ‘well married’ in an idealistic ‘ marriage of equality’? It’s just much less likely to happen on the terms you may imagine or hope for. Me personally? I well knew of my mum’s And my wife’s history. Neither made it a habit of even dating the ‘bad boy cads’ that so many evidently find so irrestible to be banging on the occasional forgetful ‘blurry, wild weekend’.

                      It’s all about proportion and standards. If you’re still susceptible to the siren call of the off hand sex of ONS after your ‘youth’ (or marriage for a time)?Then you’re just likely working towards and desiring different goals other than the usual & common marriage arrangement. That’s it. Nothing evil there, just different desires & timetables. Which is very common too. Cheers, ‘VJ’

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                  • Marie Says:

                    Fair point. It could be an age thing.

                    But I’d like to point out that in no way was I speaking about one night stands when exclusively dating someone. I hope that everyone can agree that is not acceptable behavior. Also, I am not describing a situation where a woman goes on a date with one man only to go home to another. Again, that’s just not nice. I’m saying that, when I was single, I did have a few one night stands. They were usually with very attractive men, whether by physical looks or irresistible charm. It’s the hypocracy here that’s driving me nuts. In all honesty, if you were single and a 10/10 was chatting you up at a bar and wanted to go home with you, would you not go home with her? Why should a woman be judged if she has done the same in her past?

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                    • India Says:

                      Vj, I find most of your comments long winded and very hard to follow. I am glad your mother and wife are proper women, though. Congratulations.

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                    • VJ Says:

                      India, Both my dearly departed mum & wife were/are very smart women. They did not ‘do’ ONS’ because ‘it was never worth it’ . That’s the reality. The hypotheticals just never have presented themselves to me. Again we’re speaking of ‘normalizing selection’ here. What are the rational expectations of husbands & wives? Think on that a bit. Yes, YMMV but fidelity is always rated very highly by everyone & sundry in marriage. Can you trust your spouse to have ‘put behind them’ their ‘wild’ ways? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If the answer is likely to be ‘perhaps’ or ‘it depends’ then perhaps you’re seeking a different sort of arrangement Other than marriage. Which is fine. It’s increasingly someplace where we find ourselves today. And there in lies a tale, right? Cheers, ‘VJ’

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        • D. Says:

          In most cases, I doubt the woman is genuinely trying to take advantage of the guy and score free meals/drinks. Sure, that happens sometimes, but it’s not the norm.

          However, it also isn’t the norm that men are trying to manipulate women into bed with them by lying to them left and right, particularly over the course of multiple sexless dates. And yet, what’s the refrain we hear when a guy goes out with a girl a few times, sleeps with her, and then calls it off (or doesn’t call back)? Right. “He was just using you for sex.” I’m not saying you make such accusations, Marie, just that the meme is out there and prevalent. And it’s really, really irritating because it presumes that a man can’t simply lose interest with a girl legitimately. Like, once he has sex, he’s somehow a cad if his interest fizzles. Of course, if he’s dropped several hundred dollars on dates without sex, and she loses interest, well, that’s her prerogative, right? That kind of double standard pisses guys off, but often goes uncorrected or unchallenged.

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          • Marie Says:

            I agree that neither one is the norm and that ‘using for sex’ gets blamed a lot. What I did say that from my experience when a woman has sex with a man he rarely loses interest because of it.

            However, I have seen it happen a bit with my guy friends that they’ll be hanging out with a girl, all is going well, then they sleep together and she starts acting like she’s their girlfriend, even though she’s not. Jealousy comes into play, she starts wondering if he’s sleeping with other women. Whatever else the case may be. This might just be my experience, but it’s usually at that point when they go running.

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      • AnnieNonymous Says:

        Why do I have to be consistent? Sex isn’t an entitlement. Expecting a girl to have sex with you after two weeks because she had sex with another guy after two weeks is totally disgusting.

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        • HammersAndNails Says:

          This is my best attempt at translating it into woman. I’m sure it’s not a perfect analogy. I’m trying to convey the basic idea:

          How would you feel if I said “I really like you. I’m so glad you and I can have always have fun at my house in sweatpants watching netflix eating chinese out of the carton. I used to date these smoking hot girls and I used to have to get dressed up and take them to these fancy dinners and broadway shows and buy them flowers. I’m glad we have a real relationship. I’m just so comfortable with you I never feel like I need to worry about you.”

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          • AnnieNonymous Says:

            I never want to stay in. I don’t own sweatpants, nor do I subscribe to Netflix. But I’m glad you’re admitting that you think that your ex’s version of a relationship is something you have to put up with just to get to the sex part.

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            • HammersAndNails Says:

              I give up. You are completely closed to the idea of even having a discussion. Way to miss the point. Sorry I wasted my time. You are right, as I’m sure you always are. Hope that goes well for you.

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    • CoolDude Says:

      “how likely he is to maintain the dynamic after he’s gotten the sex he wanted.”

      He could, ya know, actually like you. And, honestly, what is so bad about having sex with someone and having it not work out? If you’ve only been seeing them for two weeks it’s not like you’re THAT attached.

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      • AnnieNonymous Says:

        Why have sex with a guy I’m not THAT attached to?

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      • Greg Figueroa Says:

        The problem is here he feels entitled to sex. I read his story for a second time. He never said that she wasn’t reciprocating. . .handing hands, having fun, and making out is all golden, but he gets mad that he’s not getting sex when he wants it. She was showing interest. He sounds like he gets way attached quickly.

        If a girl was rushing to get married and have kids and she feels entitled to it by giving 110% and being so giving, wouldn’t that be problematic?

        or

        let’s say she was expecting a gift and fancy restaurants to show that a man is truly interested in her, wouldn’t that ruffle some feathers?

        Why wait two weeks? I want sex on the first date because I know she had sex with someone else earlier on or my boy told me that we should be hooking up quicker because hooking up happens quicker in NYC.

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        • Greg Figueroa Says:

          I should say feels entitled to marriage within the next 6 months to a year or something along those lines.

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        • LostSailor Says:

          The problem is here he feels entitled to sex.

          This type of bullshit has got to stop.

          No, he doesn’t feel “entitled” to sex. Like most men, however, he likes sex and thinks that sex is a part of a dating relationship, and he would like to engage in it sooner rather than later. That is called desire, not entitlement.

          And he’s not “mad” that he’s not having sex with a woman who he likes. There is no trace of anger in his letter, none. He may be a little frustrated that things weren’t moving faster, but that’s not getting mad.

          Sure we all would love to have sex on the first date, but most of us know full well that it’s not likely to happen. But after two weeks of multiple dates, It is not an unreasonable expectation.

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          • HammersAndNails Says:

            Finger slipped. Unintentional thumbs down. I 100% agree. Using the word “entitled” is just a sneaky way of trying to imply wrongdoing where it’s not so easy to actually establish wrong doing. .

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          • AnnieNonymous Says:

            Women have the same exact attitude actually: no reasonable woman goes on multiple dates with someone she doesn’t want to eventually sleep with. It’s the two-week timeline that’s giving a lot of us pause. The scenario in the original question was about people who met online two weeks ago. It’s not as if they floated around the same social circle for a few years and only started dating two weeks ago. They didn’t even see each other interacting with other people in a bar before approaching each other and launching into this two-week relationship. They were literal strangers two weeks ago. No, there’s nothing wrong with having sex as early as it happens, but it’s ridiculous that the guy was panicking after two weeks as if it was never going to happen. That’s what I’ve been getting at, that two weeks is way too soon to worry about never having sex with someone you met on the internet.

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            • LostSailor Says:

              That’s what I’ve been getting at, that two weeks is way too soon to worry about never having sex with someone you met on the internet.

              Sure, if you want to set artificial time limits on things. You seem to have missed the point that in that two weeks they went on six long, fun dates during which they were holding hands, making out, etc. No one was “panicking.” He was just wondering how long she would put off sex given the fact that she seemed really into him.

              Women don’t “owe” men sex and are absolutely not obligated in any way to provide it. But if you like a guy and he’s making the effort to plan multiple dates over even a two week period, at least be up front about it. And for the cognitive dissonance, see my comment above about where you’re fine with humping the rando you just met (a literal stranger) but making the guy you know and like wait…

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    • Ian Says:

      Oh man… You’ll let a guy spend hundreds of dollars and multiple nights of his life trying to impress or make some connection with you, and NOT give him sex — yet you meet a stranger at a bar who maybe bought you a drink or two and fed you some well placed lines, and your heels are in the air?

      The logic completely evades me… you know guys want sex – why reward the guy who has done nothing for you, and probably wants nothing to do with you afterwards? Why not give that to a guy that actually likes you?

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  5. Zammo Says:

    “Oh sweetheart I “don’t care about never seeing the person again” thats why I had sex with him three hours after meeting him. But I care about you so just keep planning and paying for everything with no reciprocity on my part and eventually I’ll come around.”

    Nailed it.

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    • The D-man Says:

      I’ve learned the hard way that this is just the price you pay for being a man. Much like a woman pays by frequent visits to the hairdresser, nail salon and purchasing sexy clothing. If you think too much about it you will go crazy.

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  6. Heather Says:

    I LOVE how this blog is all about saying to men that women need to make themselves more open and available and to “be easy” when it comes to sex, and yet he is telling this guy that he’s being too available and made it too easy for the woman.
    YES women should give in to what a man wants without hesitation, especially if it’s sex!!! I can’t BELEIVE this woman you just meant 5 days ago doesn’t want to have sex with you yet!!! AHHHH DUMP HER.
    And men should ALWAYS hold back on the commitment.

    Go fuck yourself. This blog is so GD retarded.

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    • Greg Figueroa Says:

      But here you are reading and commenting on this GD blog.

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      • Heather Says:

        How would I have the ability to complain about how bad this site is if I wasn’t here reading it?

        Did you win the mental acuity award in kindergarten last year, captain obvious?

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        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          Speaking of captain obvious, you’d think someone who was so offended by the content of the site would , at the very least, click the About Page. Because if you had, you’d have learned I’m a female. I make that pretty evident in just about every column.

          I didn’t mean to interrupt your rant. Please go back to telling everybody about all the posts you’ve read.

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    • CoolDude Says:

      I don’t think that’s the issue. I think the issue is a lot of women want to sleep with the guy but think “Hmmm, well, it’s only been 5 days/2 weeks/whatever so even though I want to, I shouldn’t.” I think as soon as you start holding back sex and using that as some sort of power play, you’re already losing.

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      • Greg Figueroa Says:

        So what happens when a girl, occasionally, holds back sex with you during a relationship. . .to hell with her and her power plays!

        I agree women shouldn’t be so shortsighted to add a certain time that should be passed before enjoying the earthly delights.

        But don’t you think it’s a bit suspect that he breaks off with other girls within those two weeks and feels like one sided exclusivity (sounds like he on his own accord broke it off with those other girls) grants him access to sex. I would be interested to know if she has been cock teasing him, asked him to become exclusive (or if that talk was actually shared), or acting very much like a gf.

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        • CoolDude Says:

          That’s a fair point. However, I also think that “reciprocating” doesn’t just mean sleeping with him. How about that woman plans a date or pays for dinner? If I’ve taken a girl out 3 times and she doesn’t at least offer a suggestion or maybe show some initiative, I assume she’s just not interested.

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    • LaMotta Says:

      I don’t see what’s inconsistent. The problem is either side holding out for too long. Right? Women holding back on sex for too long, guys holding out on commitment.

      Then there’s a naturally a companion set of problems when either gives in too quickly. I.e., if women fail to hold out (a-la “The Rules”), they are slut-shamed, or maybe if its compulsive, they really DO have a problem.

      This blog talks about both of the above on the part of women, mostly.

      But I think the problem of guys “giving it up” too quickly (commitment-wise) is out there, and it’s good to see this blog talking about it. It’s funny the rancor you see when its brought up, because its not stigmatized or even recognized as a problem (“men should just commit and not want sex all the time!”).

      But it is a problem. Letting a woman strong-arm you into a relationship just because its convenient and it’s delivering what she wants is not necessarily best for either person. More often than not, it would be better to ease into exclusivity, IMO. It’s easily for both people to quickly lose perspective and get unduly attached.

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  7. mindstar Says:

    Two weeks is now 5 days??? Guess I missed that memo.

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    • Heather Says:

      I wasn’t just specific referring to this story. Almost all the articles since finding this site a few hours ago have been about how if a woman isn’t sleeping with you right away then you should quit talking to her because she’s “wasting your time”.

      What about all the damn men that have wasted my time being in relationships with me FOR YEARS and then never committing. Sticking around because at least I was a regular source of sex for them and I was easy, and available. These men never had the nerve to break things off when they got bad or when they KNEW they didn’t want to marry me. The just stuck around for the good stuff.

      The older women get, the more likely they are to make a man wait for sex because they have learned this lesson the hard way.

      Plus from a biological standpoint women have to be more invested in sex. Because there is more at risk for us. We could face 9 month of pregnancy and 18+ years of raising a child. A man, can walk away from sex and not worry about consequences like that.

      I’m not sure why this blog is so intent on pushing a sexual agenda so early in the formation of a relationship. It is really a crazy idea that people may want to know each other a little better? Maybe longer than a few weeks before becoming that physical. Especially if they met online. How well can you really know someone that early? How do I know this guy isn’t a serial killer, or a rapist, an animal abuser, disrespectful toward women he isn’t trying to fuck? Why wouldn’t a woman want to wait to find out those kinds of thing before sleeping with a guy?

      But what it really comes down to is this. If a guy is really into a girl, so into her that he believes she could be the ‘one’. He’ll do just about anything to have her, including wait to have sex a few weeks/months (just as long as he knows it’s coming soon).

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      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        What about all the damn men that have wasted my time being in relationships with me FOR YEARS and then never committing.

        Do you have a tongue and a functioning frontal lobe? Yes? Then I fail to see how the fact that you wasted years with guys is not at least partly your fault. You’ve mistaken this blog for every other dating blog where all the gals sit around and pat each other on the back for refusing to settle. But then, it’s much easier to blame the man, amirite?

        You hear what you want to hear because it aligns with your inner narrative about how all men want is sex. That’s what women like you like to tell yourselves to justify why EVERY GUY YOU DATE doesn’t commit to you.

        You have shitty taste in men. Own it and stop looking for other people to attack and blame.

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      • PhillyGal Says:

        So why did you stick around if you knew they didn’t want to marry you and that is your end goal? I feel like that’s something you’d figure out pretty early, unless you just didn’t want to see the signs. Why do they have to leave you? Why can’t you leave them?

        Secondly, I have done the direct opposite when it comes to sex. With age (and maturity) I’m much more comfortable having sex sooner than I was in my teens and twenties. I actually think this is a better choice, as I know the risks involved and am smart enough to protect myself. Whether that means emotionally by not getting invested too soon OR physically by taking birth control and demanding condoms are used during sex…I just feel better prepared.

        Sex is a VERY important part of a relationship. I am dating to find a long term relationship. I don’t see what it is wrong with having sex relatively early on because it is all a part of the getting to know you curve. If I want to do it, I’ll do it.

        BTW, I don’t think this blog is not pushing a sexual agenda. I think this blog is pushing an agenda of honesty. Looking at things critically and rationally. I don’t always agree with everything said, but I really think it is important for women to be able to step outside of emotion and see things at face value.

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      • VJ Says:

        From Heather: “What about all the damn men that have wasted my time being in relationships with me FOR YEARS and then never committing. Sticking around because at least I was a regular source of sex for them and I was easy, and available. These men never had the nerve to break things off when they got bad or when they KNEW they didn’t want to marry me. The just stuck around for the good stuff”.

        Some questions suggest themselves:
        Lessons learned? The ‘good stuff’ is ‘good stuff’ because of what precisely? Was it benefiting just One person? Always? Sometimes? Seldom or Never? Was there more ‘good stuff’ beyond the (implied) sex? What was it? If not much else was ‘good’ why might anyone want to commit to that for the future?

        H: “The older women get, the more likely they are to make a man wait for sex because they have learned this lesson the hard way.”

        Perhaps, but then again that’s just One of the life lessons some older single or newly single gals might come away with. Some others might be: You can’t change men/people. Don’t rescue strays, and if you do limit them to <10 Non humans. No druggies, addicts, crazies, band or homeless people please. The list is endless actually. But true, some women do get much pickier when they're older. We've got a name for them. Still single or 'happy widows'.

        "Plus from a biological standpoint women have to be more invested in sex. Because there is more at risk for us. We could face 9 month of pregnancy and 18+ years of raising a child. A man, can walk away from sex and not worry about consequences like that".

        Again, perhaps, but this has not stopped a goodly portion of the population fathered by daddies not in their immediately recognizable circle of kin. As in someone else secretly playing/being their bio-dad. And there's currently no jurisdiction in the US that allows any man to walk away from any child consequences free. The 'consequence free sex' is a bipartisanly enjoyed liberty too. There's no thinking woman in the US who truly needs to remain 'pregnant' against their will, unless incarcerated. And even then that's relatively rare too. So lots of moaning, very little insights or self knowledge even. Cheers, 'VJ'

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  8. India Says:

    Attractive women are going on dates with 3, 4 , 5 different guys a week. If she slept with everyone on the second date, quite frankly she wouldn’t have time for everything else. Sorry to burst some bubbles, if you are on a date with a pretty girl, there are plenty of other men out there that will take her out and would want to hook up with her on the drop of a hat. She doesn’t need to rush because she doesn’t have to.
    Secondly, if you end up in the sac with her on the first date, are you certain you will be good enough for her to come back for a second round? The sad part is there is a huge spectrum from very bad sex to very good sex for women (dudes think most sex is good sex). Women are more likely to tolerate mediocre sex if she has build enough connection to like something else about you. If the sex sucks and it was one date, an attractive woman can easily move on. I know most men think themselves as being amazing in bed, but….

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    • Marie Says:

      Ha!! This is the best thing I’ve read on this thread. And it’s very true. I can’t tell you how many times my friends have told me when I ask them about a date “eh, he seemed nice but the sex wasn’t great” …and he’s never heard about again.

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    • D. Says:

      You realize, of course, that this cuts both ways and applies to women equally as it does to men.

      Not that it’s all about sex, but an attractive guy who’s dating around can probably get the kind of reciprocation he’s looking for from other women if the girl in question isn’t inclined to do so. And she may hold out for multiple dates with him, only finally relenting on, say, date 6, only for him to discover that she’s a lousy lay. And, sorry to burst YOUR bubble, but dudes do think that bad sex is bad sex, and they won’t be back for more if it is. If the old joke is true — that sex is like pizza — you can still find really shitty pizza that you’d never want to eat again.

      You may not intend your comment to come across this way, but it sounds like the attitude that the woman has in the scenario you describe is that the guy has to demonstrate his worthiness to her, while she sits back interviewing and judging her multitude of suitors. Again, that can be every bit as true for guys. You’re a girl with options? Super. Chances are if you go on a date with a guy, he’s a guy with options, too, assuming you’re not “slumming it” or “dating down.” Doesn’t it sound like a recipe for disaster if we’re all approaching dating with the attitude that the other person must demonstrate their worthiness to us? Doesn’t that sound a bit standoffish and a bit unlikely to actually, you know, develop into anything other than a couple of dates before one of you says “Fuck this. I’m out”?

      I’m not saying it’s a bad thing to have self confidence. Far from it. But at a certain point, having the attitude of “I’m awesome and you have to prove yourself worthy to me” is going to be self-defeating.

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      • Marie Says:

        It doesn’t sound like it, but you guys are actually kind of saying the same thing, from different perspectives. Yes, an attractive guy has options. If a woman will not sleep with a man she’s seeing, chances are he’s getting it somewhere else. We know this. And until there’s a solid committment and relationship, we (well, most of us) accept it. There isn’t really anyone here bitching that men they aren’t sleeping with are getting it in others. There are, however, a lot of complaints that women aren’t putting out easily enough for average men.

        I don’t think the implication was that we’re sitting around judging our suitors. I think the point (at least how I read it) is that there are a ton of men here complaining that they don’t get laid by their dates on the first night. After 1 date there is no (or at least there should be no) emotional connection. What the implication was is that by date 6 (arbitrary number), most women are still around because they are genuinely interested in the person. Sex that is just average (which is the majority) is still enjoyable, because we like the guy.

        Unless I’m reading your comment wrong, whether the man actually likes the woman or not, average sex is a deal breaker. To me, bad sex on a first date is almost always a deal breaker, because there is no other link between me and my counterpart. Bad sex on the 6th? I probably still like him and would want to see him again, hoping we can make the sex better – on both sides.

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        • GManJamin Says:

          “I think the point (at least how I read it) is that there are a ton of men here complaining that they don’t get laid by their dates on the first night.”

          I think you are reading it completly wrong. Most men do not complain about not getting sex on the first date. Will they take sex on the first date, yes most likely. But what the average guy has a problem with is when you make him wait to have sex for a certain amount of time because he is relationship material. Then he finds/figures out that you have had sex on the first date or some guy you just met because that guy was not relationship material just hot and you were horny.

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          • Marie Says:

            Ok. That’s fair. And I do understand how that can stink. But try to consider the female perspective. The way you feel hurt when a woman won’t sleep with you but will sleep with a one night stand is fairly similar to the way a lot of women feel when a man they see a potential relationship with is sleeping with them as well as other women. So, how do we give this guy a chance without feeling hurt by him seeing other people? We make ourselves less vulnerable.

            Even look at the outcome of this story. Once the man said he wasn’t seeing anyone else, the woman had sex with him soon after. It’s not a tradeoff, it’s an avoidance of getting hurt.

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            • Kurt Says:

              Most men will automatically not view a woman as relationship material if they are sleeping with her and know that she is also sleeping with other men because men will think that the woman has a low value. Most women, on the other hand, don’t seem to view men the same way if those men are also sleeping around because the women assume that the man has some type of high value.

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          • Kurt Says:

            I think that the issue that I and many men have is that we know that there are many women who play the field and none of us want to be that chump who is paying for dates for a woman who is hooking up with some other guy when we aren’t getting anything from her ourselves.

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    • hammersandnails Says:

      You are not really hitting on any of most guys actual concerns here. We know pretty girls have a ton of options and can go on a ton of dates. You forget though that there is another pretty girl around every corner and if I got one, I can certainly get another.

      If we end up together on the first night and she is not impressed? That’s fine. We clearly are not compatible and I sunk one night and presumably had a nice night, and got laid, so all in all I’m perfectly happy with this scenario. Only women insist on trying to make this scenario somehow weirdly and inexplicably awful.

      I don’t want a woman to tolerate intimacy with me. If I’m not the guy she has that animalistic undeniable attraction for, I want her to leave as soon as possible. I am no woman’s safety net.

      The issue here is that if she’s dating a few guys, and one of them is getting sex and the others are just wasting time, money, and energy. To be told “not interested” is fine. To be strung along as the backup plan that takes her out to dinner but gets a peck on the cheek while she goes, buzzed off the wine I bought, to go bang the other guy that couldn’t be bothered to take her to dinner, is beyond offensive.

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      • India Says:

        Then move on – don’t tolerate it. You have the decision power to pay for dinner – or never call her again. As you said, there is a pretty girl at every street corner. It is your decision to stay or move on. Why get offended or frustrated? Just move on – as you said, you have plenty of options.

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        • hammersandnails Says:

          I personally found a better solution, I just make sure I’m the “other” guy instead of the sucker. If that doesn’t work out, then I move on, with no attempt to woo a woman. The only loser here are the women who I would have been more than happy to take out to a nice dinner and get to know before sex if I didn’t think that might put them in no sex for weeks “full relationship mode.”

          I think you may be forgetting where this conversation started. I’m not trying to change the world. I’m very comfortable with my current place in the food chain. I was just warning a woman, who seemed pretty proud of her double standard, that no decent man would tolerate being the sucker, so she should make sure he never finds out that she’s like that. A bunch of women then defended their right to have any number of standards they please. I agree. I was just trying to explain that if you let a guy know/suspect this, he’s not going to take it well, and why that is.

          I’m actually kind of secretly hoping there is at least a woman or two out there who actually just said “I never really thought about how it would feel to be on the receiving end of the immediate sex vs prolonged courtship double standard. I can see how a man might find it hurtful, even though that wasn’t my intention” because right now, I’m really appalled at how aggressively defensive the women in here have gotten here with no reflection at all to the fact that all most of the guys have said is that we find this behavior hurtful, not that you are wrong/evil/slutty/etc.

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          • India Says:

            If you are getting hurt or getting played, you are the common denominator in the situation. This applies is for both genders. No one is putting a gun on your head and forcing you to pay for a $200 dinner. If you are doing this over and over again, and Getting no where, you have to take responsibility. Say no. Delete her number. As easy as that.
            Also why get so emotionally invested in whether one woman sleeps with you or not? As you have said, your options are plenty. Go to the next street corner and meet the next pretty girl! Why get “hurt” or “offended”? Why the drama? You know how to teach someone a lesson – get rid of that person from you life entirely. This works every time.

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            • hammersandnails Says:

              I’m barely even sure you meant to reply to me. I never complained about getting hurt or played. I’m not sure if you are trying to psychoanalyze me to the point where you are missing the point or if I am really being that unclear. I’m fine.

              As uncomplicated as I can make it, the only point I was trying to make:

              As a woman, if you play the double standard and a good guy that you were seriously interested in finds out/suspects, don’t be surprised if he bails because of it.

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              • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                Ok. Really? Why is this conversation still going on? You’ve all made your points. At this point you’re all just baiting each other into circular arguments. How about we all move on?

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                • CoolDude Says:

                  “We clearly are not compatible and I sunk one night and presumably had a nice night, and got laid, so all in all I’m perfectly happy with this scenario. Only women insist on trying to make this scenario somehow weirdly and inexplicably awful.”

                  This. 1000x.

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  9. FoxyMoron Says:

    You hear what you want to hear because it aligns with your inner narrative about how all men want is sex. That’s what women like you like to tell yourselves to justify why EVERY GUY YOU DATE doesn’t commit to you. Never truer word spoken , tell em how you really feel Moxie… Ive been reading this blog since its birth and i have to say its not a wonder some of these chicks are still single. Btw Mox great article about Bad girls and Bad Boys ……

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  10. Sarah Says:

    Heather and Annie have put up a good fight here, but I’ll be honest — I don’t think she’s that into you; I think she probably talked herself into having sex with you (which could have happened for any number of reasons), and I think her ideal scenario would be to keep you around as a boyfriend proxy who keeps her occupied and usually pays for dinner.

    Of course, I could be wrong (or projecting), but your letter perfectly describes a situation I’ve been in for the aforementioned reasons. Granted, two weeks isn’t a long time to wait for sex, but after six dates, things should at least be building gradually. Going from adorable hand-holding and possibly-platonic cuddling to sex with little in between seems like a red flag to me. But, maybe she just changed her mind. It’s possible.

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