READER RANT: When a Woman Says She’s “Traditional” What Does That Really Mean?

Name: PhilI-know-that-feel-bro-blank
Age: 29
City: New York
State: NY
Comment: I’m one of the many on this site (as it seems) who has been enjoying (or not at times) what it’s like to be somewhat young, single and in NYC.   Overall, I’d have to say I’ve enjoyed my dating life in this city.  Sure, there are some people who have burned me and, yes, I’ve had to had some nights spending money on weirdos and/or people who are socially off but that just comes with the territory.  I’m thankfully not bitter about the whole process.

I’ve noticed something consistent about a lot of women (particularly the older ones, age 28 and up).   I was wondering if you also come across this in your day-to-day relationship/dating advice giving.  Many women I encounter like to claim they are “traditional” in that they need the man to make the first move, set up the date, initiate conversation, etc.   While I used to accept this, it now seems that “being traditional” is more of an excuse people use when they want the other person (i.e. the man) to do all the heavy lifting in the beginning.  To me, it essentially says something along the lines of:  “You must bend over backwards and prove your worth to me and, should I deem you acceptable, I suppose I will start putting in a little effort of my own.”  In fact, a girl was telling me she was traditional last night and I said, jokingly, “Oh, so, you need the guy to do the heavy lifting right?”  Without missing a beat she said, dead seriously, “Yes, exactly.”

I really wonder if this is the reason why many women find dating in this city to be so hard.   Sure, I realize there are plenty of pump-and-dump guys out there and, hey, I’ve been guilty of doing that as well.  However, I think a lot of men (myself included) get to an age where we’re just too exhausted to chase someone down.  Perhaps I suffer from my own arrogance in that I don’t want to convince anyone they have to like me but, is it really out of line to ask women to put forward SOME effort at the beginning and not continually fall back on “being traditional” as an excuse for just being romantically lazy?

 

Thoughts?

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57 Responses to “READER RANT: When a Woman Says She’s “Traditional” What Does That Really Mean?”

  1. The D-man Says:

    Guy here, so take my observations with a grain of salt. In my experience most women want a man to wear the pants, and when they’re young and beautiful in a city like NYC, they have no shortage of men willing to do that for at least as long as it takes to get sex.

    As they age they become more willing to compromise, but that doesn’t change their attraction switches. Taking the initiative and setting up a date, picking the restaurant, paying for it etc is attractive all by itself, but once you (the man) hit your thirties, women of the same age are more tolerant. A single, successful man in his thirties has tons of options.

    That said, I still do all those things in my forties. My most attractive years are behind me, so I have make up for it somehow.

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    • Julie Says:

      Great advise!!

      I recently went on a couple of dates with an attractive, smart and interesting guy…..who treated me like his buddy. He is in his early 40s and in school finishing up a teaching degree. Beause he is in school and financially strained, I wanted to make sure I picked up at least 50% if not more of the cost. He also didnt really flirt and did nothing chivalrous or protective at all. I thought he was a great guy, but the buddy routine turned me off. The sad thing is that I really wanted to like him (he was my cousins friend) but the buddy routine just killed the attraction on some base level for me. So there in lies the trick. If you want women to do the chasin, unless the women is on the domineering side and likes being the aggressor, good chance they may just get turned off by being “the man in the relationship”.

      Another reason women dont want to “do the chasing” is because men will rarely say “no” to a date even if they are not all that interested. The reason to ask the guy to do the heavy lifting is because we want to know that you are interested in us and not just along for the ride and the sexy time.

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  2. anna Says:

    he just said he’s done the pump and dump thing so …..why shouldn’t we make the man prove himself a bit??

    if he’s too exhausted to chase someone down, he should just go for a woman who wants to chase him. but, i doubt he’s going to be attracted to her….

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    • Speedy Says:

      Its been said many times and its true, there isn’t a way you can make a man ‘prove’ himself and there is no proof that could ever really exist that would mean anything.

      How about getting to know someone instead of treating them like a laboratory specimen? Tends to work better in my experience.

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  3. LostSailor Says:

    A lot of the time, women in this age group have indiscriminately dated and partied their 20s away, but now that they’re looking to settle down, they want to project more of a “good girl” attitude. To weed out the same type of men they used to date, they say they are “traditional” in order to project a different image than their past might otherwise call for. It’s definitely a signal that they want a man to do the heavy lifting, to romance them, and show they are fit partners for the long term. And it’s also a signal that they won’t be falling into bed with you anytime soon.

    Personally, I would take any insistence that a woman is “traditional” at this age as a red flag. They’re going to make you do the work this time around. If there is any hint of a wilder past, then this being “traditional” is a facade and charade; getting into a long-term relationship or marriage with a woman like this is likely to bite you in the ass 10 years down the road.

    Such “traditional” women should be approached with caution…

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  4. ISOf16 Says:

    LOL…..You are 29 years old! Hey Bro…. things will get better when you are 39…. oh wait.. 49…. OK Ok… 59 years old….. No, not really… get use to the “Traditional” excuse. It never goes away!

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  5. AnnieNonymous Says:

    It’s something that women (at least, women like me) project to weed out the guys who just want to hook up. If the attraction is mutual, call her and ask her out. That’s really all “heavy lifting” entails. A woman who makes things more difficult than that is someone you don’t want to date anyway. If you’re still bothered by the extreme way women verbally express their standards (which again, aren’t all that demanding once you figure out the specifics of what they’re asking for), take a break from online dating. Women who go on lots of Okcupid dates have to be really stringent about standards if they want to try to avoid wasting time on creeps. They’ll drop the “rules” if they like you.

    Maybe it’s time to take stock. The OP is seeing the effect of the pump-and-dump on women: they become more guarded. He has treated women in the exact way that makes them put up those walls. Women are no longer making things perfectly easy for him. I’m never one to attribute anything to karma, but this would be a good opportunity for him to step back and recalibrate his dating strategy. He admits that he has used women for sex in the past, and he doesn’t seem to feel all that bad about it. Now he’s wondering why women are not jumping to date him. He made women feel bad and he never had to feel any consequences. He’s 29. I was 26 or 27 when I got good at avoiding the guys who would treat me that way. You know the common thread in a lot of these articles about how women are responsible for ending their own bad relationships or asking the hard questions or for not falling into situations that hurt them? Part of fixing that problem is weeding out guys who are big with the pump-and-dump and who call dating “exhausting.” Nothing about this guy sounds fun to date. Does he even want to date? He’s not asking for advice about how to land dates or find a relationship. He’s asking why women are no longer receptive to the tricks he’s been employing since college. Newslash: women learned their lesson with guys like him.

    A guy who confronts a girl and refers to the niceties of dating as “heavy lifting” (again, saying, “Want to get a drink on Thursday night” and then remembering to show up isn’t hard work by any stretch of the imagination) is sending the message that he wants to skip the date and get straight to the sex. That may not be your intention, but it’s what women think you’re telling them. The woman you asked about that probably said whatever she had to say to end the conversation. You were already talking about dating and somehow you directed the conversation around to how much you don’t like the process of dating. It’s no wonder that the woman was snappy with you. I think you misread sarcasm or dislike (of you) for seriousness. You played the “heavy lifting” card and she realized you weren’t going to take her on a date, so she stopped wanting to talk to you.

    Guys who are in their early 20s don’t feel the need to commit to one girl because they see pretty girls everywhere and they have implied access to all of them. Then everyone grows up a bit and the guys wonder where the girls went. They’re with the guys who don’t try to guilt them out of having standards by calling them difficult.

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    • DrivingMeNutes Says:

      “Guys who are in their early 20s don’t feel the need to commit to one girl because they see pretty girls everywhere and they have implied access to all of them. Then everyone grows up a bit and the guys wonder where the girls went.”

      Well, no. Relatively speaking, things are pretty bleak for a guy in his early 20’s and start to get much easier in his thirties. There is no reason for a guy to start settling just because he’s reached the age of 29. Women aren’t even taking him seriously yet.

      My advice is to the OP just let the “traditional” women alone. Is it really that difficult? Yes, it is code used by women to express their sense of entitlement. Obviously. So? Some people are just assholes, including some women. There are plenty of very attractive women who are easygoing and very fun to be around and will be thrilled to hang out with you. Go out with those women. Duh?

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      • AnnieNonymous Says:

        I don’t think that getting a girlfriend is settling. There may be lots of attractive, lovely women who are willing to hang out with the OP, sure. But willing to go for the pump-and-dump with a guy who thinks that making the first phone call is too much work? No. You can’t treat women like interchangeable fuck buddies and then wonder why the good ones aren’t interested. Do you only think a woman is fun if she lets you do whatever you want and still pretends to be nice about it? You have to be nice to her too.

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        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          “You can’t treat women like interchangeable fuck buddies and then wonder why the good ones aren’t interested.”

          I don’t see how one would causally affect the other, other than in an imaginary world where karmic justice reigns. In reality, you can treat lots of people very badly for a long period of time and still have lots of “good” women be interested in you. The good women have no idea how you’ve treated other women.

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          • AnnieNonymous Says:

            In the real world where people talk to each other, bad behavior catches up with you. Women also get the hint when a guy thinks making a phone call is heavy lifting. Calling dating “heavy lifting” is a red flag. This is a guy who, however he’s playing it, is giving women the correct impression that he only wants sex and is not interested in dating at all. Even if his reputation isn’t catching up to him, he’s being affected by the fact that women in his age bracket have already dealt a few guys like him and aren’t interested in that game anymore. The women are getting older and learning from experiences with guys like him.

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            • DrivingMeNutes Says:

              Yes, and my advice is to leave those women alone and go out with the ones who aren’t idiots.

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              • AnnieNonymous Says:

                I don’t know, I think the idiot in this situation is the guy who brags about his pump-and-dumps.

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                • The D-man Says:

                  If he’s getting sex easily, I hardly think he’s an idiot. I had a heck of a time in my twenties. But if he’s looking for a relationship and not getting what he wants, then a change in strategy might be warranted, but if he’s is attractive enough to get women into bed he’s much farther along than I was at that age.

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                • CoolDude Says:

                  Hi AnnieNonymous,

                  I’m the OP and, side note, pretty psyched my question got posted and is inspiring such debate (and, of course, spiraling out of control and having people miss the point entirely).

                  ” If the attraction is mutual, call her and ask her out. That’s really all “heavy lifting” entails.”

                  Apologies if this was unclear. I think you’re hung up on my thinking this is just the initial ask-out. I’ve met girls who seem to require 3-5 dates/events of the guy planning everything out, planning every last detail and they merely just need to show up. I’m fine planning things and even paying, it’s just nice to have the other party merely even suggest ideas or take the initiative every once in a while.

                  “Calling dating “heavy lifting” is a red flag.”

                  Can you direct me to where I said “Dating is heavy lifting?”

                  “I don’t know, I think the idiot in this situation is the guy who brags about his pump-and-dumps.”

                  I threw that part in to not play the victim card. I’ve also been pumped-and-dumped by women (for real, women slept with me, enjoyed it and then wanted not see me again). I know you’re probably thinking “Whatever man, you’re probably just bad in bed” and, hey, that could be true but, this whole “it’s only men who pump-and-dump think” is beyond false.

                  “Even if his reputation isn’t catching up to him, he’s being affected by the fact that women in his age bracket have already dealt a few guys like him and aren’t interested in that game anymore.”

                  Yet another example of missing the point. If my post had been “I WANT TO BANG HOT CHICKS AND NOT HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THE DATING ASPECT OF IT ALL. HOW CAN I DO THIS?” then, by all means, you would be correct.

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                  • PhillyGal Says:

                    I get it. You do not sound douchey or whiny or like one of those red pill/pua types. Just like a guy trying to navigate the dating world.

                    I am on the other side of the spectrum. I am that easy going chick who will come up with fun things to do. But I meet the guys who pretty much expect me to run the show (plan all dates, pick days & times, do more than a fair share of the follow up) and I have NO desire to do that. I want a balanced dating experience with someone. Both parties are putting in effort and getting a great experience out of it.

                    So if you’re ever in Philly, CoolDude, you’ve got yourself a date to commiserate!

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                    • CoolDude Says:

                      Haha, thanks for getting the point. I actually will be there for the Made in America festival in August/Sept.

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                    • K Says:

                      Is it possible you just don’t like these girls that much? Like you are 51% interested, but not much more. Maybe you just have a lot of options. My males friends in their 30s don’t meet a lot of girls they want to date. If they do they aren’t thinking much of all the effort because they are just so excited girls they like exist and keep saying yes to dates. Maybe you have more options than them.

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            • mindstar Says:

              I don’t think the OP claimed that making a phone call was “heavy lifting”. In my experience when a woman says she’s “traditional” (particularly amusing when it comes from a woman who sports multiple tats and body piercings) she wants the man to do everything. Initiate all phone calls (no texts for her), plan and pay for all dates, demands exclusivity early on but sex is far down the road and only “after I’m comfortable with you”. It’s as Lost Sailor said she had her wild partying in her 20s and now wants to be a “good girl”. It’s also often a case that she now realizes that her options are diminishing as she gets older and its settling in that she’s NOT going to land the elusive Unicorn notwithstanding all the ones who used to pump and dump her. So she’s changing her strategy.

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            • AnonymousDog Says:

              “Heavy lifting” is just a term for having to take all of the initiative in the early stages. Men are expected to take the risk and initiate contact. Nothing, nothing will ever happen unless someone takes the initiative, and women who wear their traditionalness on their sleeves evidently feel entitled not to have to take those initial risks.

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    • Speedy Says:

      1. Yes but this kind of ‘poor me, I’ve been ill-treated by other people so I’ll be ‘defensive’ thing always backfires. Horndogs love women like this and seek them out. You have to realise, you are setting out an easy, by the numbers guide to what someone has to get you into bed. You might think you are being ‘wary’, you are really announcing you are a sure thing.

      2. “Using women for sex”. What does that even mean? Are you implying women don’t like sex, or are you saying that women only like sex when they are trading it for something else? Most adults, comfortable with their sexuality, accept sex for exactly what it is and enjoy doing so. The idea of ‘using someone for sex’ is one of these weird statements women use to imply poor morality but it doesn’t actually make any sense.

      3. Also agree with DrivingMeNutes, you are projecting women’s experiences onto men.

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      • AnnieNonymous Says:

        “Using women for sex” is hard to understand but the OP’s “pump and dump” isn’t? You built your own caveats into your statements. Okay, most adults who are comfortable in their sexuality aren’t victimized by these dumb games. But young women in their late teens and early 20s aren’t comfortable with their sexuality. Also, guys lie. Nearly every woman has had the experience of a guy promising to be her boyfriend to get her into bed, only for him to never speak to her again. We can talk all day about whether it’s right to barter sex for commitment, but the fact is that the guy got the girl to put out by lying to her. That’s not something girls set themselves up for. The guys could have just said “no, I don’t want a girlfriend” and left it at that, but instead they lied for sex. That’s what being used is. It’s not the same thing as casual sex that both parties are aware of. Calling it a pump-and-dump implies that the guy knows he dropped the ball and…dumped the girl. She didn’t think it was a one-nighter. Moreover, he’s proud of the fact that he’s accumulated a few pump-and-dumps. Whether or not he’d admit it, he thinks he’s smooth and he’s proud of his actions.

        This is a pointless argument though, since as I already said, this guy isn’t asking for dating advice. He’s asking how to adjust his strategy so he can continue to have strings-free sex. Which is fine, but you have to actually ask for the information you want. The guy says he wants dating advice, so I’m telling him how to get dates. If he has an issue with it, it’s because he doesn’t want dates.

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        • Kurt Says:

          I know lots of guys who don’t lie to women and certainly didn’t lie to women when they were in their 20s and those men were typically discarded by women as “nice guys.” I honestly think that a large percentage of women want to date liars especially when those women are at their peak of attractiveness. There really are a lot of distrustful women out their because they made foolish choices in the past, and men need to keep their eyes open to avoid these bitter women in the dating world.

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          • meh Says:

            this is so true. in my 20s i was trying to find women suitable for marriage & they were not ready or didn’t take me seriously or i didn’t make enough $ or they were concentrating on their career or i got friendzoned.

            now i’m a 40yr old not nice guy with a 28 yr old girlfriend who, like LostSailor says above, is pretending to be traditional but i know the truth. it’s all a big lie & i’m not falling for it. so don’t believe any woman who says she’s “traditional.” she’s making you jump through hoops & is a hypocrite feminist. she probably has been with so many men your head would spin.

            “being powerful is like being a lady, if you have to say you are, you aren’t”

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        • Speedy Says:

          Sleep with someone because you want to sleep with them, not because you are trading.
          If you are a trader, then you can grumble you got ripped off or didn’t get ‘paid’ but at the end of the day, it was your decision to make it into a transaction.

          Its not a moral issue.

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        • coptic777 Says:

          “Okay, most adults who are comfortable in their sexuality aren’t victimized by these dumb games. But young women in their late teens and early 20s aren’t comfortable with their sexuality.( YET THEY MORE SEX THAN THE AVERAGE GUY THE SAME AGE. THEY SEEM COMFORTABLE TO ME) Also, guys lie. Nearly every woman has had the experience of a guy promising to be her boyfriend to get her into bed, only for him to never speak to her again. (HOOK UP CULTURE ONLY EXIST BECAUSE OF WOMENS CHOICES & EXACTLY HOW MANY GUYS HAVE YOU LET HAVE IT YET WHEN I DO THE OPPOSITE & SHOW CHIVALRY YOU THEN SAY NO) We can talk all day about whether it’s right to barter sex for commitment, (“BARTER” SEX YET WONDER WHY WE LOOK AT YOU MERELY AS A SEX OBJECT) but the fact is that the guy got the girl to put out by lying to her.

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        • CoolDude Says:

          I have never, ever, ever promised to be someone’s boyfriend so they would sleep with me. I’ve been someone’s boyfriend because I WANTED to be. Also, no one has EVER demanded that I be exclusive with them in order to have sex. I’m not sure what world you’re living in…

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    • LostSailor Says:

      Wow, massive projection much, Annie?

      Maybe it’s time to take stock. The OP is seeing the effect of the pump-and-dump on women: they become more guarded.

      Maybe it’s time to take responsibility for your own sexual choices, rather than blaming all the guys.

      Newflash: women are “pumped-and-dumped” because they allow it. If women offer themselves up sexually to the charismatic guy who already has lots of options, they can’t turn around and complain that it’s someone else’s fault that they are emotionally hurt when the guy splits.

      It’s not that the women the OP is meeting are “more guarded” of their tendered hearts. Instead, they’re trying to rewrite or erase history while feeding their own sense of entitlement. They “deserve” to be treated in a traditional manner because they’re good girls (never mind all those other guys she gave it up to right away, and that train she pulled in that motel in Daytona on Spring Break never happened, nuh-uh).

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    • coptic777 Says:

      Notice how Annie is hung up on this “phone call”. You picked the easiest thing anybody could agree with to back up your point. You act like men do not see in their 20’s that after paying for date after date not getting anywhere for a relationship (yes a lot of us wanted that) or even sex & not consider that exhausting? Again keep show us the sense of entitlement & whip right back talking “equality” when it suits you.

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      • CoolDude Says:

        Ha, yeah, I noticed that too. Making a phone call and asking someone out is not a problem at all. Having to plan EVERYTHING and having every single move and place you suggest judged to a T is just exhausting.

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  6. Speedy Says:

    Either its being lazy and selfish or maybe she really means it.

    Fair enough I think. You’re traditional, then so am I and I’ll be bringing a pair of socks along with me for you to darn in time for our next date.

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  7. D'Alias Says:

    Traditional: from a woman’s pov, it definately means she isn’t down for a one night stand. It means she is looking to date seriously, hopes to get married one day with a ring and ceremony and all. Most likely have a family. With a man who loves her, who has a decent job, and will hopefully be financially sound enough to allow her to take off one year after the first child’s birth (Family Medical Leave act guarantees three months UNPAID leave).

    It DOESN’T mean dinner whore, entitled princess, gold digger, or frigid lover.

    It might mean relatively vanilla sex (no fetlife profile, no bondage – or maybe just scarves, probably light spanking only, 50/50 chance of anal or facials). The sex could come anywhere from three dates to a few months in.

    It probably means she isn’t going to reach into her purse for the inital dates. But it doesn’t mean she won’t share the rent, buy gifts, pay for her own expenses, split vacations, and treat her boyfriend out to nights on the town, dinners, concerts, or whatever.

    These girls are probably just trying to protect themselves from being used, or pumped and dumped.

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    • VJ Says:

      Well DA that might cover some of it, but it really depends on who the woman is, what her experiences are/were, and what culture she’s a part of or living in. Let’s run down some of the possibilities. In NYC? They’re endless:

      1.) Traditional might very well mean an arranged marriage brokered within families by the parents for the children, even ‘older’ ones. Ask her if he dad needs approval. No really. This is where the gun/sword play comes up. Frequently too. And this type of marriage is Increasing here in the US/CN & in large cities.

      2.) Traditional might mean No sex before marriage (even if she’s dated and had plenty of ‘active’ BFs before you), it’s just ‘different’ for guys she takes ‘seriously’ as potential husbands.

      3.) For Most cultures it of course means the guy pays for almost everything, and arranges everything. Dates are often seen as ‘touch-less’ fantasies here, full dress rehearsals for formal dinners to come later.

      4.) And sorry, this does not negate the ever present possibility of someone possessing the whole entitled ‘Princess’ fantasy. Even if they grew up dirt poor in the Bronx. Fairy tales have a powerful effect on kids!

      5.) It likely means that she’s Not all that adventuresome, and is not all that well educated. And if they’re educated to or beyond a simple BA? They’re Much more likely to be Very religious, and Intensely wrapped up in the ideology of various right wing or ‘conservative’ & religious causes. Ask if they’ve been educated at a religious college, and it’s nature. That might be more important than you care to imagine.

      6.) Almost all will have definite preconceptions about the nature of sex, it’s role in the family, how it’s to be performed, when, where and why, as well as the begetting of children. Almost invariably most will deeply desire kids, and likely quickly and perhaps often too. Some will practice no modern contraception also.

      7.) It may also mean a certain circumscribed existence around her family and friends. No swearing, no petting, no kissing and certainly no sex of any kind while visiting.

      8.) Looking at her dress may also confirm if she’s all that ‘traditional’ in her outlook or ‘style’. Does she own halter tops, really short/revealing bikinis/shorts/dresses? How many tats & where? What do her shoes look like? More ‘granny’ of ‘functional’ than ‘high fashion’? How much make up does she use? How much jewelry does she wear? What does it look like? Mennonite/Amish/Hasid looking are traditional styles of dress and appearance! So are Burkas & veils too.

      9.) Traditional types may be also revealed in what people Consume and buy. How many magazines does she follow? Does she know what the Kardashian’s are up to on most days? Can she get by w/o a Taylor Swift/Hollywood daily update? What & how much TV/Media does she consume? Is she constantly fashion shopping? Does she frequently buy gifts for herself or others?

      10.) Also How generous with her time is she? Might she be described as being being ‘humble in dress & demeanor’? Does she give regularly to local charities? Is she close with her family? Love children and is good at baking and cooking? That’s traditional folks, sorry!

      So those are the realities of dating and marriage in many traditions (in brief). For many guys in NYC? This will seem and may be summed up by the simple ‘economic friction’ it’ll create, and the more costs and time expenses it may well incur. Hence the simple avoidance strategy mentioned by others above. But DA’s ‘modernist’ interpretation may be the better part of hope here, the best possible outcome. Cheers, ‘VJ’

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  8. Yvonne Says:

    Oh, I get it. Poor 29-year-old Phil has gotten to an age where he’s just too “exhausted”. The women he dates, however, who’d like to see him put forth some genuine effort and interest, are simply “lazy”. Right.

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    • CoolDude Says:

      Haha, I hardly find my post to be a “woe-is-me” one but fair enough if you read it that way. It honestly was just something I’ve noticed, thought was interesting and would inspire discussion (as it clearly has). I’m quite content with my dating life and am enjoying it. Sure, I go through periods where I genuinely DO find dating exhausting but I do what any sensible human being would do. I just take a break for a bit until I feel like jumping back in.

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  9. Yvonne Says:

    And “thankfully”, he’s not even “bitter”.

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    • CoolDude Says:

      If there’s any conclusion to draw after reading this site, if you’ve made it to 29, single and in NYC and you’re not bitter, that seems to be an accomplishment.

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      • Yvonne Says:

        I just think that 29 s a little young to be bitter or judgmental, especially when you admit that you have been guilty of the “pump and dump” yourself.

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  10. Marie Says:

    How someone treats you at the beginning of a courtship is a fairly good indication of how they will treat you down the road. Think about the woman who doesn’t even offer to chip in on the first date. Chances are, she’s entitled and will expect the man to take on more financial burden down the road. A lot of men find this unattractive. Well, a man who doesn’t want to ask a woman out is probably not the type to be the alpha in the relationship. That’s just something a lot of women, myself included, find attractive in a man.

    The age part : that’s easy. Women in their early 20s are typically not looking to date to settle down. They’re looking to date for fun. Women in their late 20s – early 30s, a lot of the time (although not all of the time) are looking to date in order to find a partner and settle down. Different criteria – different standards.

    The whole “asking a woman out first is heavy lifting” thing really cracks me up though. I would REALLY love to hear this guy 5 years down the road tell his 9 month pregnant wife that asking her out on the first date was difficult and required ‘heavy lifting’.

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    • coptic777 Says:

      “Well, a man who doesn’t want to ask a woman out is probably not the type to be the alpha in the relationship. That’s just something a lot of women, myself included, find attractive in a man” Let’s switch this. ” Well a woman who turns down every guy except the top 20% of high earners & looks & slept w/ these types through her prime is probably not the type I want to trust in marriage because my assets can be taken away by the courts. That’s just something a lot of men, myself included, find attractive in a woman.”

      ” Women in their early 20s are typically not looking to date to settle down. They’re looking to date for fun.”
      Translation: Sleep w/ the “alphas” often an aggressive thug type. Complain about her choices & apply it all men due to her emotions & lack of logic in seeing her part in this. Then expect a sucker to commit after so many other men who damaged you had you on a whim. Rinse & repeat. I have personally seen this so many times.

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      • Marie Says:

        Sometimes I think the men on this blog are more bitter in dating than the women.

        I’m not sure how you made the jump from ‘women find alpha males attractive’ to ‘women turn down everyone who isn’t in the top 20% of something’. No, most women will not turn down a man for a date simply because he is not the best looking guy in the room or because he doesn’t make 6 figures. Some will, but on the flip side, some men would turn down any woman who is larger than a size 2. Go figure. Women will, more often than not, turn down a man that lacks confidence. Same way a man will turn down a woman who demands he buy her things.

        I’m also not sure what got lost in your translation here, but I was not implying that women in their early 20s want to sleep with the aggressive thug types. I am saying that people date different people when they’re young as opposed to when they’re older, because they are looking for different things. Also, I also was not implying that women are attracted to ‘aggressive thug’ types. Cause frankly, most of us are not. What I meant by “alpha” is a man with the confidence to take control. The provider type.

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        • coptic777 Says:

          One source that has been quoted on this site is Okcupid. They did a study & found that most women said 80% of the men were ugly & had no chance. It is common knowledge that about the 20% top earners etc. get most of the women. You ladies are sleeping w/ a small group of men that’s a fact. Also the “bad boy” phenomenon & women referring to types as being Alphas is well documented from Huffintgton Post to Forbes magazine. Just google “women love bad boys” & all kinds of articles pop. I routinely hear women tell me nice guys are boring even into their 40’s. Where have you been? I think you are just in denial because admitting the truth would put most the spotlight on womens choices & behavior instead the usual. Blaming men.

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        • coptic777 Says:

          Oh by the way “the provider” type? We are equal now so as my business which is taking off earns me a six figure income I will not be looking to “provide” anything. Those days are long gone especially when I & so many other men see that chivalry did not work before I made it. Why should I extend it now? Provide for yourself ladies. F%@k that noise.

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          • DrivingMeNutes Says:

            Congratulations on your business. I suspect if you think paying for women doesn’t work, then you haven’t actually tried it. You should pay for women because (a) you can and (b) it works. A better strategy than trying to fight the power.

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            • coptic777 Says:

              Uh if you read my comment I said I tried chivalry & it did not work. So yes I did pay for dates actually I use to proud that no woman had ever paid for a first date w/ me even if she was not interested. Then I discovered that it does not work after seeing them complain about guys who did not pay etc. yet often they slept w/ them & not me despite me giving a dam 7 showing it. When you say I am ‘trying to fight the power” you are really saying I should be a simp beta male & pay for women in an environment where chivalry is not even appreciated. Women who complain about the guys who do not pay if he is “hot” enough will allow that same guy to meet her a hotel room SHE PAID FOR & let him hit it. All the while I am trying to court her? I have way better luck at a bar w/ slim 25 yr olds looking to just party. No thanks.

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              • DrivingMeNutes Says:

                I believe that you have luck with the ladies at the bar. I really do. You can always tell the succesful players that comment here because they whine and complain endlessly about “chivalry” and “feminism” and throw words around like “beta” and “alpha” to sound like they know what they’re talking about. Wait, come to think of it…..why would they be complaining about women on an Internet blog? Hm, I’ll have to sleep on that one.

                Anyway, the gist of my comment, succinctly stated, is that I think you are talking out of your asshole, repeating things yo’ure heard or read, and haven’t ever tested out, in real life, your impoverished PUA theories. Or, maybe you have – how would I know, really. But, it certainly doesn’t seem like it from your commentary. I hope your feldgling “business” isn’t PUA pamphleteering because you suck at it.

                I drink your milkshake.

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                • coptic777 Says:

                  I never claimed to be a player. I never really wanted to be one to tell you the truth. The joke for me is my agenda is working for me. I am still young enough to enjoy to current environment that I am in my & see it for what it is. It does hurt not that I have some appeal to women in the looks dept either ;)

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                • coptic777 Says:

                  Oh I forgot to mention notice how I at least site one source to back up my claims in response to you & yet you accuse me of ranting on & on about nothing I ever tried before. Any young man in the dating scene can tell I am speaking from experience no matter how much you cluck & chick. Your emotional.

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          • Marie Says:

            Yeah, money is not the only thing that people can provide each other in relationships. Try having a real relationship and then you’ll understand that.

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  11. D. Says:

    “Traditional” is a pretty squishy term.

    It could mean anything from the stuff VJ posted to something as simple as “How about you call me up and plan dates instead of asking me where I want to go?”

    I’m sure it’s also used as a justification for why the woman in question isn’t having sex with the man in question that evening. “Sorry, I’m traditional.”

    I think the OP asks the wrong question, though. The issue isn’t whether a woman expects a man to do the heavy lifting. The issue is how much of herself she’s willing to give back, and whether that’s enough for the OP. And you can’t gauge that reliably JUST by a woman saying “I’m traditional.” Maybe she just means she prefers talking on the phone to texting. Maybe she means she wants to recreate her life in some approximation of a 1950s sitcom. Maybe she means she doesn’t fuck on the first date. Who the hell knows?

    The real issue is whether she’s into you. If she is, then chances are (A) you’ll know it because she’ll show it, and (B) it won’t feel like you’re “bending over backwards” to court her. You’ll just be having fun together.

    If you feel like you’re “bending over backwards”, chances are it’s because the person you’re dating isn’t that interested and you should stop dating them. But merely because a girl says she’s “traditional” doesn’t in and of itself mean that dating her will be a drag.

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    • CoolDude Says:

      “The real issue is whether she’s into you. If she is, then chances are (A) you’ll know it because she’ll show it, and (B) it won’t feel like you’re “bending over backwards” to court her. You’ll just be having fun together.”

      Very true, thank you for the sound advice.

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      • Lucy Says:

        @CoolDude – I suppose it’s just about knowing your limits and when to bail. I can be far too patient myself with people who expect me to pick up the slack. Over time I’ve become better at picking up on entitlement earlier on. And yeah I may be 23 but honing some healthy scepticism through online dating can help (haha because the internet is full of people with lofty expectations).

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    • Lucy Says:

      I hesitate at the use of the term ‘traditional’ or any other terms which produce a variety of reactions depending on who is reading it, as the OP’s post demonstrates. You have to be careful, when crafting an online dating profile, for that very reason. Another example would be the term ‘feminist’ which can conjure up both positive and negative reactions. My antidote is to try and be as neutral as possible, to show my personality rather than describe it using labels. That only seems to cause confusion.

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  12. chillybeans Says:

    “(particularly the older ones, age 28 and up)”. Holy crap I’m a fossil!

    ASK HER-what do you mean by “traditional”? Oh, and just to really get her going, ask her if “traditional” also means women making less pay than men….LOL

    Despite my advanced, post age 28 age, I don’t consider myself “traditional” in that I don’t expect guys to have to do all the heavy lifting. After my first date with the current BF, I texted him first. OMG, yes I made the first move after a date, instead of sitting back and waiting to be adored.
    AND shockingly, he told me later he really liked it, that it wasn’t always up to him to make the first, second,third, etc etc move.

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  13. Lucy Says:

    Maybe some of you disagree but I think it’s quite unfair on a man for a woman to have the sort of attitude where she expects to sit back and wait for the guy to prove himself. It’d be the same with the genders reversed. No one should have to prove themselves. The whole idea is to get to know each other, to be an enthusiastic participant, have fun and not to play games.

    Maybe books like ‘The Rules’ have had some impact on this. I think parts of it are ridiculous. This argument on whether and to what extent women and men should initiate only clouds our judgement. I believe that most of us have good intentions but the over-reading of bogus dating advice produces a bit of a haze over our dating behaviour. When I stopped imbibing so much of it, distanced myself from the advice of strangers and just settled back into having fun whilst employing self-awareness and common sense, it became easier. As long as you have secure personal boundaries, there is no need to create them with games. As long as a woman has a full life, there’s enough intrigue for the man.

    As a gender, perhaps to some extent we ought to review our expectations of men, the idea of what a ‘real man’ is and what the embodiment of masculinity is. A man spending a lot of money on me up front – well I don’t think of him as any more respectful than any other man and I’m certainly not any more impressed by him. I like the idea that a man doesn’t have to flash the cash to impress me. I like to think that he is genuinely interested in getting to know men, not palming me off with expensive dinners. Many players of course know the power of the ‘traditional man’ archetype and obviously exploit it to good use.

    OP, I would be most delighted to go on a date with you if you were in Britain. aha.

    Interesting post. I enjoyed reading everyone’s thoughts. :)

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