Would You Date Someone Who Lived With Their Parents?

Name: Guywallet22
Age: 30
City: Brooklyn
State: NY

Comment: To whom it may concern:

I am little lost on this dating scene.I wanted to be honest.

 First, I am balding, non-white/asian (it unfortunately matters I learned), Christian, and I can’t sing(hah).

But I do have a M.S., a job, live with my parents, and attending law school at night. In the culture I was brought up in, living with your parents until you were married or at least when you finish school was expected. But I am constantly seeing that people value someone that lives on their own but has family values. I am little lost on that concept. I am a only child, I love my parents, and I have friends, but apparently I am not good enough because I live with my parents?  Living with my parents has allowed me to keep an eye on my parents, get closer family relations, save plenty of money(apparently women like that, $100K+ in the bank). Furthermore, whenever I want to date someone outside my ethnicity I am already tagged as some vagrant or loser with loose morals that should not be given another thought. I have low expectations as it is already but still could someone throw me a bone—hah.

QUESTION: So my question is, how can I level the playing field where I can date other women of different nationalities and not have to face that stigma?

Easy. You move out and live on your own. I have to say that I call bullshit on the “but I save so much money!” excuse for having roommates or living with parents. Being an adult is about making sacrifices. When I hear the word roommate come from anybody over 27 or so I hear, “I’m not ready to grow up.” You can live on your own and still save money. You might not have the size apartment you might have if you didn’t have roommates, but you’ll have a roof over your head. It’s about living within your means. If you can save 100K while being in law school, you have the means.

In a rather heated exchange with my niece and nephew last week, I had to explain to them why I’m opting out of owning a condo that my father had purchased and let my sister live in that was included in my Dad’s probate estate. I created a bullet point list of why gifting my portion over to my sister would be a very, very bad move financially for all involved. I also had to explain the terms of the promissory note drafted by my father when he sold my sister, their Mom,  his home. It struck me, as we were going back and forth and they were accusing me of being greedy, that neither of them have ever lived on their own. My niece is in her mid-twenties and still lives at home. My nephew, 31, only recently moved in with his fiancee. Neither of them have ever had to go through the process of renting an apartment or buying a home. They’ve never dealt with landlords or had to pay property tax or applied for a mortgage. Therefore, everything I said went right over their heads.

By 22 or 23, most people here have moved into their first apartment. By 27 or 28, they’re living alone. Which means they are not only responsible for the financial aspect of that by creating and living on a budget and watching their credit score,  but for keeping their home clean, cooking, shopping, laundry, etc. That kind of autonomy and responsibility is crucial in our development. As I was saying to a friend the other night, there’s an incredible sense of pride in knowing that all your bills are paid, you’re debt free, and you’re contributing to a savings and planning for your future. As someone who always had a financial safety net of sorts in my father, I can not tell you how good it feels to stand on my own. (And, no, my trust has not played a major part in that.)

As long as you have that safety net of living at home, Guy, you’ll never truly be considered an adult.

It’s not just the “weird” stigma that you’re facing, Guy. What people are also wondering when they consider dating you is how you’ll cope with being “on the outside.” Lacking the experience in basic responsibilities like paying rent sets you behind developmentally. Yes, women like men who are financially stable. But you live at home. It’s not hard to accrue a 100K savings when you’re not paying rent or a mortgage. A woman would be a lot more impressed if you had a mortgage and 25K in savings.

I think you’re using your cultural traditions to justify why you don’t want to spend the money on an apartment. You know that living with your folks compromises your love life. Yet your desire to sock away cash appears to be overriding that. You want a girlfriend and a social life? Move out. You can move close to your parents and check in regularly. There are plenty of work-arounds here.Should you move out of Brooklyn there’s this magical system of cars that run beneath the ground that can transport you to wonderous places like Queens and Williamsburg.

Your making excuses because you don’t want to spend money. That is at the top of the list of things that women find unattractive.

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141 Responses to “Would You Date Someone Who Lived With Their Parents?”

  1. CielArdent9 Says:

    He also seems to have a self-defeating side by pointing out his early baldness and his poor singing. I don’t think he’s simply being cheap with himself or any potential girlfriend. He could probably use work on his self-esteem so he’ll have the guts to move out and be on his own.

    As for his family’s culture, it could be that his parents are placing guilt on him because it is not part of their culture to move out before marriage. While that is not an excuse, it can explain his mindset.

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    • HammersAndNails Says:

      That’s not self defeating, that’s realistic.I give him credit for acknowledging that. A realistic assessment of your strengths and weaknesses is crucial.

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      • CielArdent9 Says:

        Well, singing isn’t a deal breaker for many women. Maybe he was just being facetious.

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        • hammersandnails Says:

          Agreed. I think he was just alluding to the idea that if you are bald, and live at home but sing like an angel, women may overlook your shortcomings. Look at how many women still like chris brown. Utter monster, but they still want him.

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          • HammersAndNails Says:

            lol.. Did I just seriously just get a downvote from a chris brown fan?

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      • Eliza Says:

        Hammer: like at least 80% of men in their 30’s are either bald, or are balding and therefore–many shave their head–and some look cool and can carry that look. Balding is not an issue for men…hey, having a beer belly these days doesn’t even deter a large percentage of women. Men have less to worry about in the “looks” department – compared to women. We know that. But what women do like – is a man that is independent. Whether you can sing or not, a man that is on his own is very appealing. You can still be traditional and embrace your cultural upbringing, and have a very close relationship and live close by your parents. After a certain age, a person has to be their own person, and not live in a parent’s shadows or meet their every expectation.

        P.S. Chris Brown is the biggest monster out there.

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        • HammersAndNails Says:

          I completely agree that women are far more forgiving then men when it comes to appearance, but that being said, you need to be aware of what you bring to the table. While you can be successful with women without looking like their favorite movie star, if you do look good, it is an asset.

          If you are bald and overweight, but have a nice place, a career she finds respectable and a bit of charm, there are many many women who would love to have you. If you are short, it will be harder then if you are tall. If you are funny it will be easier than if you are not. It’s all about how your target audience values what you bring to the table.

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    • Eliza Says:

      Ciel: I agree – that perhaps his parents are “traditional”–and may be placing that guilt trip on this “poor balding man”…. lol. For the OP–stop using balding as any excuse at all. Plenty of bald men, who do splendid in the dating scene…why? Because they are great communicators, INDEPENDENT, live on their own, have charisma, and are most of all – Confident. I really do believe that by moving out – your confidence is going to soar, and that alone will postively impact your dating opportunities. Being close to your parents to help–is truly a cop out. I live within a 5-10 minute drive–and if ever there is a need for me to be there for my mom/dad–I am there, a cell phone call away. When I meet a man that is in his 30’s or yikes 40’s – living with mom and/or dad…what I perceive is someone that is tied to the apron strings…and is unable to manage a home, their life, their independence. Besides…wouldn’t it be nice to host an evening at “your place” for a change–were you to meet someone you really enjoyed spending time with. Your silly comment about your baldness and poor singing is the least of your worries. You can save money, and find yourself a small, yet nice studio if need be. When I meet a man that lives on his own…I know he is fully aware and probably appreciative of how much time/effort it takes to maintain things at home, even if you have to hire a housekeeper part-time.

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  2. HammersAndNails Says:

    I agree. I’m not a stickler for most things, but I will not consider dating someone that has not paid their way for a few years. If they moved out on their own for 3+ years, and then moved back, I would consider them. Handling your own business is a serious catalyst for maturation. Taking care of yourself without mommy and daddy is just crucial to developing realistic expectations of life, yourself, and others.

    Living with mom and dad gives you a very insulated, childlike perspective on far too many things. Even if you do contribute financially but your mother still cooks your dinners, and cleans the bathroom, etc etc etc you are just not really an adult. Listen to yourself whine about how the world isn’t fair. You sound like a child. No one owes you a chance. You need to earn it. Asian guy’s don’t really have it so great either when it comes to interracial dating, and I don’t know what advice you expect us to give you when you don’t provide any information about what culture you are coming from.

    This is me talking as a man. Women will hate that you live at home for a million more reasons.

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  3. WO7 Says:

    Oooh…yippie, another anti roommate rant from Moxie!!!

    Moxie is such a big grown up for living on her own. No one who has roommates could possible be as much of an adult as she is!

    I bet if you took a survey of all the people in Manhattan, you’d be shocked to find out what percentage of single people over 28 still have roommates. I guess they’re all just children who don’t know how to make the “sacrifices” of being an “adult”.

    You also successfully managed to completely dismiss another culture other than your own. Ignorance is bliss? I will agree, that if this guy wants to better his chances with women in the US, then he has to move out of his parents house. But it is also going to be a difficult thing for him to let go of his cultural conditioning.

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    • CielArdent9 Says:

      As a wise man once said, “the rant is too damn high!”

      And if we don’t make enough to afford a $2000 a month place of our own, I guess we’re not good enough?

      Sure, roommates can be a pain but it’s better than living at home.

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    • Speedy Says:

      I agree it is location dependent. I know lots of people with room mates in London for example, given it is the most expensive city on the planet and they can’t afford it any other way. These people are only surgeons and barristers, not real adults obviously.

      I also think that it depends why you are living with your parents. Times are hard, holding it against someone whose business went under for example and has had to move to get back on their feet is being a bit silly. Not everyone has daddy’s money behind them, sometimes daddy’s sofa is all thats on offer.

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  4. Hard ache Says:

    Who is it YOU want to date? If its women from the dominant culture here, then do as the Romans do. Else you will get the response you got to your post.

    I understand your self effacing post and your situation caring (?) for your parents, so if that’s important to you, there are plenty in NYC, with a deep appreciation for traditional eastern values, who will appreciate and admire your traditional values. But you will need to put in the effort to find them. The internets is wonderful for that kind of thing!

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  5. CoolDude Says:

    Being an adult is about making sacrifices. When I hear the word roommate come from anybody over 27 or so I hear, “I’m not ready to grow up.”

    You live in NYC, no? You can be grown up, self-sufficient and have a roommate in order to maintain a certain lifestyle that you like. I’m starting to agree with some of the others in that you really do seem like a spoiled snob at times.

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    • Laura Says:

      I completely agree with you on the roommate front, but completely agree with Moxie on the parents front. There is a big difference between living with another adult (and each paying part of the rent, doing the chores, etc) and living with your parents. Even if you are paying rent to your parents, doing chores, etc, it’s just not the same as standing on your own two feet.

      And I’d broaden the age range that Moxie gave – if you live with your parents after whenever you finish college or grad school, it’s pathetic. Grow up.

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  6. Eileen Says:

    He also come off as slightly creepy in the “I want to date people of different nationalities.” As a non-white person too, I can tell you that I get extremely turned off when someone approaches me simply because of my “ethnicity” because usually they also usually come with preconceived notions of who I am and why I should give them the time of day. Yes, attraction is important, but when it comes off as the beginning and end of the conversation, it is very off-putting.

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    • HammersAndNails Says:

      Why do women have to make everything so difficult? I’m a non-white person and approaching me because of my “ethnicity” is just as valid as any other reason why a person would approach a stranger. I’d love to hear some examples of reasons why a man might approach a woman he has not spoken to that are oh-so-much more substantive and free of preconceived notions.

      I do agree that only a clueless man would admit that your ethnicity was the reason, but that’s for the same reason I wouldn’t admit that the only reason I’m talking to a woman in the first place is because I saw her awesome rack from across the room. Might I then find her personality sparkling? Sure, but if she had worn an ugly loose fitting dress instead of a push up with a nice neckline, I would never have found that out.

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  7. Eliza Says:

    I can understand people loving the city, and more to do 24/7 in NYC, but one sacrifice one may need to make – for the sake of having their own little living space and 100% privacy – as an adult in their 30’s and most definitely 40’s…is living outside of Manhattan. Sure, there are less places to go to–but it’s not the end of the world in terms of dating, if you drive, you get everywhere and based on there in the outerboroughs you do choose to live – in a modest 1 bedroom or even nice studio – there is plenty of 24/7 transportation at your doorstep. Unless you move far into Suffolk county. A person doesn’t need to spend $2,000 to live in some 2-3 bedroom apt. if they have other financial responsibilities – like student loans, or ongoing education, like law school, or other obligations. That’s the sacrifice I am thinking about.
    Some people end up leaving the city–because they want to own property–rather than rent. All is good–the point here is by a certain age, it’s more desirable to live alone. You come and go freely–but yes, there is a price to pay for the freedom. And it’s worth it. I do know some flight attendants..and sure–they have roommates-only because they are rarely in one place for any length of time. understandable.
    I would prefer to date a man that has a roommate (if he was financially responsible in general)–as opposed to being with a man that is living with his mommy – still! At the age of 30, 40 or even 50! yes, there are men out there – living with their parents at that age.

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    • mindstar Says:

      I think the main reason why women are rightfully opposed to a 30+ man still living at home is that its shows delayed adolesence. The woman will ask herself “In a crisis will he be a man I can count on or a little boy who will go running home to mommy and daddy”. Still the rent siuation in NYC is problamatic. There have been numerous posts here of how one “MUST” live in Manhattan (and then only in a readily accessible part of it) in order to sucessfully date. You end up making choices on one side or the other ex. I chose to have a larger space and a cheaper rent than I’d pay in Manhattan because I live in the far end of Brooklyn (Bay Ridge). I have a nice place but the location has certainly adversely impacted my dating. Its all about choices which is part of being an adult.

      BTW Eliza in Manhattan you’ll find that many studios are well over $2,000 a month especially in newer construction.

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      • Eliza Says:

        I am aware. space is at a premium in the city – unless you live in some walk-up in a less desirable area of the city. But I know what rents go for. Which is why I pointed out that a person can live in other areas, like Williamsburg, Forest Hills, Astoria, places that are easy to commute to/from the city…and still date with many possibilities…and be mobile. and not have to pay that high rent of $2K a month for a studio. If someone told me they chose to leave the city, so they can focus on saving/planning for their future (financially)…I would respect that desire and decision…if they lived alone – outside the city. A reasonable person that is sincerely interested in someone is not going to not date you because you don’t live in some Manhattan zip code..and if they do…why do you need to be with someone so narrow-minded?

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  8. WO7 Says:

    Here is a good read:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_162-41540267/how-much-should-you-spend-on-rent/

    I wonder if Moxie only spends 25% of her gross income on rent (doubt it). If not, then I think the main “adult sacrifice” she hasn’t made is living within her means.

    According to Moxie: If you have roommates you’re not to be considered. If you live in an outer borough, you’re not to be considered. If you live outside of NYC completely? Forget it!

    The average price of a STUDIO in Manhattan is $2,406 a month. You would have to make $115,488 a year for that to only be 25% of your gross income. And you would live in a damn shoe box.

    Apparently, Moxie is too good to date anyone who makes less than $50,000 more a year than the median income of Manhattanites (which I found to be $67,000 from a 2013 news article).

    In psychology, there is a word for that.

    Delusional.

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    • wishing u well Says:

      I have to agree with some of the points made here (except for the name calling at the end). I’m only willing to spend a certain percentage of my income towards rent as my 5 – 7 year plan involves buying my first property. Therefore, I am only willing to spend XXX per month on rent while saving a certain amount. However, if I were to move to NYC, yes there’d be more dating opportunities, but to live on my own – I’d have no money to save on a monthly basis and wouldn’t meet the 25% income requirements for a landlord on my own. (I live in northern NJ, 20 min from NYC). Even with the savings that come with me giving up my car and not paying car insurance, NYC would require a roommate for me without question, and I’m a seasoned professional who is semi-established in her 2nd career. For this same reason, I drive, but I have an older car that is completely mine, is low maintenance, and commands a lower car insurance rate. I take public transit to work daily instead of driving to save a few hundred a month. I’m not willing to toss my disposable income on the newest car or the biggest apt within my budget because I’m all about living tightly today for a better tomorrow.

      Flexibility is key, in my opinion.

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      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        My rent per year is less than 25% of what I gross. Roughly about 20%.. I live in a somewhat tony neighborhood right near the private schools and the Mayor. I have an inordinately large studio (about 600 square feet in the living area alone.) My friend K. found a 1 bedroom on 110th street last year for $1200 p/m. Are we living in the heart of the city or in shi-shi buildings? Nope. Oh well. That’s the sacrifice I was talking about. On top of that, I still manage to have no debt and contribute to multiple savings accounts. And on top of that I do it running my own business.

        Those $2500 studios are in the high rises or in expensive neighborhoods. There are so many steals in this city it’s ridiculous. You just have to look for them. Sorry, there’s no excuse for somebody 30 or over with a stable income to have roommates. Live in Brooklyn or Queens or East Harlem if you have to. It’s totally doable.

        This nonsense coming from people who have lived with roommates FOR YEARS just to save on rent or a mortgage is sad. Buy a place you can afford and shut the fuck up. You’ve been playing the”I’m saving money to buy another place!” card for literally years. Bottom line: you’re cheap.

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        • wishing u well Says:

          “I have an inordinately large studio (about 600 square feet in the living area alone.) My friend K. found a 1 bedroom on 110th street last year for $1200 p/m. Are we living in the heart of the city or in shi-shi buildings? Nope. Oh well. That’s the sacrifice I was talking about.”

          Well that’s both feasible and flexible in my opinion, and I’d be willing to make that transition. I haven’t really seriously “tried” to get into NYC, but I was considering it. Looking at the purported rents of $2500+ per month to supposedly “not” live in an undesirable neighborhood (think crime and quality of residents, not trendiness) from the outside in NJ, I was scared off. But this seems manageable….

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          • LostSailor Says:

            Wishing, there are a lot of great deals available if you know where and how to look for them. One way is to simply walk around a neighborhood you’re interested in. That’s how I found my current apartment: a sign on the building’s door. This landlord doesn’t use brokers or advertise vacancies, he only posts signs on the building’s door and because it’s a nice neighborhood, and often gets referrals from current tenants (I’ve referred two friends) he rarely has vacancies long. There are others like this out there and you avoid broker’s fees.

            I’ve used brokers before and always try to do without them The last broker I used kept trying to bait and switch me (most of them do), constantly showing me apartments outside of my price range, etc. When I did finally find a place I liked (very large one bedroom with separate living room and HUGE kitchen–seriously, large table and appliances and you still probably could have bowled in it) in my price range in East Harlem, he had me rush down to his office with the fee (up front) and deposit in cash, only to tell me hour later that the apartment had been rented to someone else (then what the hell was the cash deposit for, idiot?). I don’t recommend using brokers if you can avoid it.

            I wouldn’t discount places like East Harlem (aka Spanish Harlem). It was undergoing a construction and renovation boom before the housing crash and is slowly picking up again. I lived up there for several years and have many friends who still live there. Once the Second Avenue subway is opened, the whole area is going to be solid gold.

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            • wishing u well Says:

              Thank you for the info! I am seriously going to look into this as I’d love to live in NYC. As my friends are falling into the typical surburban lifestyles, the more I realize that it’s not for me….I’m restless and need more. And since I’ve lived alone after moving out on my own, my strong preference is continue to do so. East Harlem / Spanish Harlem, okay. Any other affordable areas that you could suggest?

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              • LostSailor Says:

                Well, I’ve lived in UES and East Harlem for many years, so I’m not necessarily familiar with other neighborhoods

                Alphabet City (Lower East Side east of Avenue A) has come up a lot in recent years and prices have apparently crept up, too, but deals might be found.

                Morningside Heights has also come a long way and would be a good place to look.

                Harlem proper has become somewhat pricey but I have many friends who like it there, including several Irish bartenders I know.

                Here’s an article that covers some of these (what is says about Yorkville where I live also applies to East Harlem).

                http://www.amny.com/urbanite-1.812039/5-manhattan-nabes-you-can-actually-afford-1.3073314

                Keep in mind, the farther you are from a subway line, the cheaper rents are likely to be, so that’s a trade off. But New York, especially Manhattan is a walking city. Personally, though, I’d stay away from Washington Heights or Inwood. I do know people who live there, but it’s far enough from mid-town that you’d be better off living in Hoboken (which is actually a decent alternative to the city with good nightlife)

                Good luck.

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              • Marie Says:

                Hi Wishing!

                Where to look depends a lot on your lifestyle. As Lost Sailor said, alphabet city is a good alternative (try to stay towards ave A and B) where really good deals can still be found. If you’re willing to live with roommates, Stuyvesant town has enormous apartments – and when split – are reasonable. Without roommates, they’re not really affordable though. Also, the only very close subway is the L train, which gets very packed during the week. The upside to those places is that there is a lot to do with an active nightlife. The lower east side is great too – but the deals are found further to the east, which can get dodgy. The only train close is the F. Awesome night life and awesome food in the area though.

                For more low key but still young, upper east side has affordable places. Harlem, both east and west, has affordable apartments too. I prefer west, there is just more going on, but there you want to look above 135th if you want to stay under $1500 :)

                This website is awesome for scoping out prices for apartments. http://www.padmapper.com Some have broker fees, but if you look around, some don’t! Good luck! :)

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                • wishing u well Says:

                  Thank you so much!

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                • LostSailor Says:

                  I was actually shocked last year to find that even Avenues C and D have cleaned up a bit and there are some very nice restaurants and bars. Yeah, it’s still a little funky, but that’s it’s charm (and I well remember the area back in the days of the Thompkins Square riots). Hell’s Kitchen would also be a decent choice, over by 10 and 11th Aves. Still close to nightlife, but far away enough to avoid a lot of the noise.

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                  • mindstar Says:

                    As an add on to the above while these areas tend to be further from subway service you still have the options of buses. The M14 lines run along either Avenue A or D (might be both not certain) and will leave you off in Union Square so plenty of subway options there.

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        • Marie Says:

          I’m just curious, were you living in that apartment on your own, using only 20% of your income on rent when you were 30? I mean, yeah, by mid 40s it isn’t a stretch to have the income or savings to pull this off, but at 30 in New York, it’s different. Especially for a guy in law school. Chances are he doesn’t have a 40+ hour a week job to pay for rent.

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        • CoolDude Says:

          “Sorry, there’s no excuse for somebody 30 or over with a stable income to have roommates. Live in Brooklyn or Queens or East Harlem if you have to.”

          Sorry, but that is a generalization and you are imposing what’s important to you onto others. Some people value a certain neighborhood and lifestyle v. living on their own. You can be just as self-sufficient, independent, organized and responsible while having a roommate as someone who lives alone.

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        • HammersAndNails Says:

          I don’t need an “excuse”. I’m 33, and I enjoy living with a friend, and all of the social positives that come from that. My last apartment was a 1 bedroom in midtown, sure I can swing it, but it was boring having an empty house and I enjoy the extra disposable income.

          I currently spend ~11% of my gross on rent and have a sub 20 minute commute to work It leaves me plenty of funds for the things I really enjoy. Since you apparently enjoy watching TV at home on saturday night, maybe that explains why you feel so strongly about other peoples apartment choices.

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          • CoolDude Says:

            Well, according to this site, you are a loser and not a full grown up because you are 33 and don’t live alone. Also, you seem to enjoy going out and doing things with people you know and, thus, prefer not to go on dates on Saturday nights so you are therefor not mature. I seem to suffer from the same problem. Here’s to being immature well into 30’s….

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        • WO7 Says:

          Luckily, running a dating blog doesn’t require any intelligence in mathematics.

          $2,406 was the AVERAGE price of a NON-DOORMAN studio in Manhattan. Not the price of “studios in the high rises or in expensive neighborhoods” as you claim.

          Harlem (worst neighborhood in Manhattan) is the cheapest place to live, and the AVERAGE price for a NON-DOORMAN studio there is $1,512. That means you have to make at least $72,576 for it to be within your means.

          And who the hell wants to live in a studio apartment? What a miserable existence.

          Oh, and if you live in a rent controlled apartment, please shut up.

          You can find living in the outer boroughs or with roommates as sad as you want. What’s actually sad, is someone over 40 who doesn’t own their own property. How’s your retirement going? Net worth? Thought so.

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          • LostSailor Says:

            Harlem (worst neighborhood in Manhattan) is the cheapest place to live

            Really, the “worst” neighborhood in Manhattan? Dude, you clearly haven’t been to Harlem in many years. Since the mid-nineties, Harlem has been undergoing a huge redevelopment and has become somewhat pricey.

            Owning a primary residence as an investment isn’t what it used to be. You sound like my ex-mother-in-law, who always exhorted the need to buy a house. However, unless you’re planning on holding that property for years beyond the mortgage, it’s a poor investment.

            Your concern for everyone’s retirement and “net worth” is touching; borderline psychotic, but touching…

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            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              No matter what is said to him, he’s going to discount everything we find appealing about where we live because it doesn’t live up to his phony standards. Yet we’re the ones who are elitist.

              It’s one thing to be someone who can’t afford to live alone. It’s a whole other ball of wax to be able to afford it and choose not to so you can over charge suckers on rent while you stuff money under your floorboards like a miser.

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              • WO7 Says:

                No matter what is said to me? I take it you’re blind. Do you not see the huge amount of down thumbs to your stupid ass roommate/outer borough posts and the up thumbs to mine? Do you not see that it’s pretty much just you and your pathetic lacky LostSailor vs the entire rest of the posting populace?

                You are completely and utterly delusional.

                You can find your neighborhood appealing all you want. I’m glad you like where you live. I’m sure if I lived in the UES, I would enjoy it too. However, it’s not a “great neighborhood”. Not compared to all the other Manhattan neighborhoods.

                You keep calling me an elitist. But guess what, you won’t find me telling people who are smart with their finances to avoid dating renters with no savings/retirement. I am saying what I am saying, because you are continuing to preach that renters in Manhattan avoid people with roommates or who live in the outer boroughs. Everything I say, is to give YOU a reality check. If you weren’t spouting off delusional moronic shit, then I wouldn’t be saying anything bad about you renting, having a shit savings, having a piddly retirement, and not owning shit. I am trying to show you where your decisions actually stand in relation to those of the people you are deriding.

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                • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                  Trust me. Women aren’t blowing you off because of this website.

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                  • WO7 Says:

                    Ha. Burned by Moxie once again. Woe is me!!! All the women blow me off, and it’s because I’m a huge loser living in an outer borough with roommates! How will I ever find a date? Someone please save me!

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            • WO7 Says:

              Great, an expert on Manhattan neighborhoods. Why don’t you list the neighborhoods that are worse than Harlem. I can’t wait to see the HUGE list of them!!!

              The place where I pulled my figures has Harlem as having the cheapest average rents. If that doesn’t make it the WORST of the neighborhoods, then I don’t know what would. I guess there are worse neighborhoods that are more expensive? Cause that makes a whole lot of sense.

              Owning a primary residence is still the investment it used to be. You can tell yourself it isn’t all you want to make yourself feel better about your bad financial decisions. Your assertion that you have to hold a property more than 30 years before it becomes a good investment is possibly the stupidest thing I’ve ever read.

              I’m not concerned for everyone’s retirement.

              Here’s my point. I will say it real clear and slow for the only two idiots posting on this topic.

              If you are renting and/or have no savings and/or have no retirement; then you can’t say shit about people who have roommates and/or live in the outer boroughs.

              Clear enough for you?

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          • M Says:

            W07 – must be good to know it all, huh? Well, lemme tell ya, as someone who has an actual mathematics undergrad and quantitative grad degree, your numbers are misleading.

            Let’s first go with the personal example. I rent a one bedroom apartment on the UWS (70s b/t broadway and west end) that is 600+ square feet inside, with private outdoor space (200ish sq feet) and an elevator. No doorman. It goes for $2600/mo and is a 4 minute walk from the subway. Highly doubt that’s the average apartment in NYC.

            Now, let’s go with the mathematical explanation of why your analysis is misleading, since you’re apparently so well versed in math that you can call other people out on their intelligence. The numbers you’re seeing (yes, I know you got them from the MNS report) are so skewed because you’re taking a straight linear average – not taking into account the substantiative difference between where the bulk of data lies and where the outliers on the high end lie. I’ll break it down so you can understand. An outlier on the low rent side may be paying $800/mo. You say the average is $2400? Well the difference there is $1600. Now let’s look at the outlier on the high rent side. There are plenty of loft studios in doorman buildings that rent for $10,000/mo+. (Yes, they exist and they are common – check out rental sites if you don’t believe me). These are penthouses and usually lofts that are just one room, but huge. The difference between your average and those rents is $7600+. Hmmm big difference. Therefore, those will skew the average towards the high end.

            If you want to make a valid arguement on rents, median rental costs is the best way to go. In case you don’t know what that means, W07, that means that if there are 99 people paying rent, the median person will be right in the middle – 49 people will be paying more, 49 people will be paying less. Some examples of median rent in nyc – UWS (80 and amsterdam) -$2000, UES (72nd and 3rd) – $1900, but towards the water it’s around $1500, Lower East Side – $2100…it goes on. First, these are some of the more desirable areas (and everywhere I looked besides UES by the water is right near a subway), second – the median means that 50% of people in those areas are paying less. If you’re looking in the less expensive areas, the median can be as low as $1300.

            Frankly, a normal distribution that excludes 5% of outliers on both sides would be the best way to tell real average cost – but I don’t have the data or the time for that.

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            • WO7 Says:

              No shit Sherlock. Couldn’t find median data, so had to use what was available.

              Even using your $1500 number, that person has to make $72,000 a year or they’re paying more than 25% of their gross income in RENT.

              You’re also not factoring in all the rent controlled and rent stabilized apartments that skew the numbers down (which counter balance the rich apartments that skew it up). These are apartments that people hand down to their relatives. They’re not an apartment you can just walk in and grab because you “know how to look”.

              Since the MEDIAN yearly income of the average single person in Manhattan is below this…that shows that Manhattan is an island where people are paying too much of their income in rent just for the convenience (or more likely the prestige).

              Which is fine. If people want to spend that much money on rent, more power to them. But it is absurd for someone living above their means to scoff at someone who is living within their means. As if that person was somehow unworthy for them.

              If you’re a rich person who can own their own place in Manhattan AND live within your means. Then perhaps you’re entitled to be a snob and look down on the rest of us. I still think you’re more likely to find happiness if you don’t weed people out based on this criteria, but to each their own.

              The bottom line, Moxie and LostSailor are both people who have spent most of their lives living above their means. If they want to do that, great. But I’m sure as hell not going to let them pretend they’re the kind of people who can look down on the rest of us. Or encourage the next generation of single folk to cling to the same shallow bullshit that they clung to.

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              • M Says:

                Oh, so you knew your data was misleading, you just chose not to disclose that information in your original post. I see.

                Funny thing is, my boyfriend has roommates. Until last year, I did too. We’re late 20s. I actually agree with you on principle. What I don’t agree with is that you’re using a biased and invalid argument to be condescending towards and speak down to two people about not only their viewpoints, but also their intelligence. But I get it, it’s okay for you to look down on them because they decided to live in the city.

                Furthermore, even this arguement has holes. I did consider the rent controlled apartments. Did you see where I pointed out the outliers that are paying $800/month?? You think rent control is paying much less than that? I was pointing out that the high outliers are further deviations from the norm than are the low outliers.

                Also, have you ever tried to rent in Manhattan? Everyplace I have been does a background check. Included in the background check is a credit check. The standard here is that in order to sign a lease you must be making at least 45X the rent and have a recent paycheck to prove it. That is very close to your golden 25% mark. Yes, there are sublets that do not require it…but if you’re renting directly from the building, that is very very rare.

                The median salary in NYC may be below $70K…but remember, those are people who WORK in Manhattan. Many people below that are living in Jersey, Brooklyn, Queens, White Plains, etc – where rents are cheaper.

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                • WO7 Says:

                  I’m sorry, did you not read the post that prompted my “condescending” tone? If someone is going to try and personally insult me, then you’re damn right I’m going to speak down to them while I’m proving them wrong.

                  I’ve never seen your screen name before, and I’m going to guess you’re new. I’ve been reading this blog for years. Moxie is consistently deriding people with roommates and/or people in the outer boroughs. Needless to say, I don’t cut her much slack when she starts acting like an elitist snob.

                  I also wouldn’t call my post misleading. I correctly defined the data as an average in the post, which is common nomenclature for mean.

                  Median would make a stronger point, but that doesn’t make mean irrelevant.

                  Do you think Manhattan is the only place that can require a minimum income? I faced that with my first Brooklyn apartment. I guess you’ve never heard of a guarantor? Which is what most people in the city do when they’re trying to afford an apartment out of their actual means. Additionally, you’re generalizing to say that 45x rent is a requirement for income when renting out an apartment in NYC.

                  No, those salaries are for people who LIVE in Manhattan. However, even if it was people who worked in Manhattan, what would be your point? Does it make sense that the average person who works in Manhattan can’t afford to live there? Cause that doesn’t make sense to me.

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                  • M Says:

                    They personally insulted you? By saying they prefer to date people who have lived on their own? I think that’s your issue, not theirs. Everyone is allowed their preferences.

                    I’ve been reading this blog since 2010.

                    The point you were making was, in fact, misleading. You were implying that the average person living in NYC is paying $2600 in rent. That’s ridiculous.

                    I never said Manhattan is the only place that requires a minimum. I was simply rebutting your arguement that most people in Manhattan live outside of their means. And yes, I’ve rented 7 apartments in the city (I like to move and try new things) – each one had the income requirement of 45X. I’ve rented both on my own and through brokers. So maybe that was a coincidence. And yes, I have heard of guarantors. My parents have done that for me at times. In order to have a guarantor on your lease, they typically have to be making 80X the rent (call a rental agency and ask – go ahead). I doubt people who have parents making that kind of dough are terribly worried about their retirement funds.

                    And yes, it does make sense that the average person that works in Manhattan can’t afford to live here. Many people working in Manhattan work in the service industry. While a lot of people make amazing money in that field, many do not. Those thousands of restaurants we have? Not all are $40/meal. A lot of people live on tips. Also, the city that is famous for actors – many of those people also dont’ get paid a lot. I know TONS of people who come in from outside of the city everyday. How does that not make sense?

                    Any other questions?

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                    • M Says:

                      *2011, not 2010. Didn’t proofread. My bad.

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                    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                      I’ve been on both sides of the roommate issue. I give a pass to guys with roommates because I don’t like the inconvenience. I also don’t like the feeling that I’m putting someone else out when I stay over. And that’s essentially what you’re doing when you’re occupying space in someone else’s apartment. I’ve been that roommate inconvenienced because my roommate’s BF is over several nights a week. I also don’t like the the majority of the time, since I live alone, I’ll be hosting.

                      I also don’t like the idea that I’m dating someone who can’t live on their own. I’ve said this before: I date people who have a similar financial situation as myself. There are people who make 40K and manage to live on their own in Hell’s Kitchen. Who cares about how big or small the space is. We don’t live here to have spacious apartments.

                      I also love how WO7 insists that LS and I have been/are “living out of our means.” We’ve both already told him that’s not the case. But he blows past that and ignores it. I have never heard a man or woman say, ‘Eww..he/she rents? No thanks.” Nobody cares about that. It’s just not something people focus on. All people care about is that they can support themselves. And someone who lives with a roommate can’t support themselves.

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                    • WO7 Says:

                      If you don’t see the personal insults, then you clearly didn’t look very hard, if at all.

                      I did not imply the average person was paying $2600. I implied that the average person living alone is paying at least $2600 in rent. That statement was true. So argue semantics all you want.

                      The average person who lives in Manhattan is living above their means. You can rebut it all you want, but you’re incorrect.

                      No, it doesn’t make sense. This is something unique to Manhattan. I could comfortably afford to live in the city center in any other city in the US.

                      I didn’t have any questions to begin with, and none of your answers were accurate anyway. So no, I don’t have any “other questions”.

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                    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                      Yeah. We’ve all kind of moved on from this. Maybe let it go.

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                    • WO7 Says:

                      @Moxie

                      “I’ve been on both sides of the roommate issue. I give a pass to guys with roommates because I don’t like the inconvenience. I also don’t like the feeling that I’m putting someone else out when I stay over. And that’s essentially what you’re doing when you’re occupying space in someone else’s apartment. I’ve been that roommate inconvenienced because my roommate’s BF is over several nights a week. I also don’t like the the majority of the time, since I live alone, I’ll be hosting.”

                      I know the reasons you give a pass. They’re perfectly good reasons to give someone a pass if you’re just looking for something “convenient” and without substance. If you’re looking to settle down, they’re not.

                      “I also don’t like the idea that I’m dating someone who can’t live on their own. I’ve said this before: I date people who have a similar financial situation as myself.”

                      An incorrect assumption. You assume they “can’t” live on their own. It has nothing to do with can’t. It has to do with priorities. Some people would rather live on their own and have no space. Some people would rather live with a roommate and have more space. Some people like privacy above all else. Some people like company. You then use your original assumption to make further assumptions “I date people who have similar financial situation”. You make all kinds of assumptions about people who have roommates. They’re not adults. They don’t make enough money. They’re cheap. They’re your personal prejudices. In your 40’s, you should be able to see your own prejudices for what they are. We all have them.

                      “I also love how WO7 insists that LS and I have been/are “living out of our means.” We’ve both already told him that’s not the case. But he blows past that and ignores it. I have never heard a man or woman say, ‘Eww..he/she rents? No thanks.” Nobody cares about that. It’s just not something people focus on. All people care about is that they can support themselves. And someone who lives with a roommate can’t support themselves.”

                      Because you have. You can deny it all you want, but it’s true. By mid 40’s, you shouldn’t be renting anymore. Bottom line. “Nobody cares”? No, nobody cares in your social circles perhaps. But yes, people care. I imagine they care a lot more about someone who’s still renting in their mid 40’s than someone who has a roommate after age 27.

                      The bottom line, you’re doing your readers a disservice by encouraging them to ignore people who have roommates and/or live in an outer borough. You tell them to get rid of all the other stupid reasons to hamstring their chances to find love, but you refuse to let go of this one.

                      The other thing I notice, is your mentality is so out of date. It shows your age. Have you looked at the prices in Brooklyn Heights, Williamsburg, LIC, Park Slope? Your mentality is a fading one. It is no longer unacceptable to live in Brooklyn and Queens.

                      I think that’s what this all really boils down to. You’re from a completely different generation, and you haven’t changed with the times at all.

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        • Objective Says:

          That is fucking bullshit. Everybody values things differently but why throw away money that you don’t have to spend. I never spend money on anything that I don’t see value spending on. When you go get a mortgage for a good neighborhood that is higher but the bank won’t lend what you need because you’re about $100,000 short then you wish you would’ve saved that $1500/month for those 5 1/2 years by not renting a place. I would gladly live with parents, friend or a roommate for an extra 5 1/2 years if that means saving enough money to buy the house in the neighborhood that I want. I answer to myself only and not other people. While you care about how other people think about you because you have to live alone I am buying my house 5 1/2 years earlier compared to the same person who is renting. I’m pretty sure anybody would agree with me that buying a house 5 1/2 years earlier is better than waiting 5 1/2 years later just to appear as independent. Oh yeah. Financially independent does not equate to mentally independent.

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    • Greg Figueroa Says:

      You do know Moxie is speaking from her perspective and age. An older me will think differently than a younger me type of situation.

      I live in the Bronx in NYC, I wouldn’t date someone in the JFK/Far Rockaway area. It’s not convenient with the amount of people that we have in the city overall. If I lived in Rochester or Buffalo NY than I would be more open to driving further beyond my area. So per selfish reasons I won’t or have to date further than I have to.

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    • LostSailor Says:

      Hmmm. I have a one-bedroom apartment on the Upper East Side of Manhattan in a nice brownstone for under $1,700 a month. East Harlem, where I’ve lived previously, has fairly spacious one and two bedroom apartments for around that, and is an up-and-coming area.

      It sounds like someone is particularly sensitive about their outside of Manhattan living arrangements…

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      • WO7 Says:

        So I guess you make over $81,600 a year? If not, you’re living above your means because you value status over sense.

        How’s your savings coming? How’s your retirement?

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        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          Yes, I make over that. And my savings is great, especially since inheriting a pretty substantial trust. Thanks for asking!

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          • WO7 Says:

            Oooh, a trust fund baby. What a shock. Well thank god for rich parents helping out loser kids who can’t manage their own finances.

            By the way, I was speaking to LostSailor, or are you having trouble following the thread?

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            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              Nope. Didn’t have a trust until a few months ago. It’s had no impact on my life or finances other than provide a feeling of security.

              You keep trying to find excuses or reasons why my ability to live alone in Manhattan doesn’t count. It’s actually kind of sad to watch you chase your tail and spit out your elitist comments about what I do. But that elitism is okay, I guess?

              Boo Hoo. I make good money and live in a great neighborhood in Manhattan and have been doing so since I was 24 years old. I had a roommate for one year before getting my own place. Lucky for me I found a place that allows me to not only live how I want, but allows me to do what I want career wise and still have a life.

              Maybe it matters to you about having space or a doorman. I don’t care about that. I don’t live my life trying to impress a bunch of people who probably don’t give a shit about me. If you were so financially stable, you’d have bought a place in Manhattan. But you didn’t. You can’t even afford the place you have without having roommates in your mid thirties. So you keep telling everybody about your net worth. You’re still the guy in his mid-thirties who lives in Brooklyn, a place far less expensive than Manhattan, with roommates.

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              • WO7 Says:

                “Maybe it matters to you about having space or a doorman. I don’t care about that. I don’t live my life trying to impress a bunch of people who probably don’t give a shit about me.”

                That is the funniest statement you have ever made. Firstly, because having space and a doorman has nothing to do with impressing people (and I don’t have a doorman). Secondly, because the entire reason you have lived in Manhattan since you were 24 is because you do live your life trying to impress a bunch of people who don’t give a shit about you (also the reason you created this dating blog).

                You living alone in Manhattan counts for exactly what it is. A mid 40’s single woman with no property, no retirement, and a meager savings.

                All your assumptions about me are funny, and just further prove your ridiculous snobby hatred of the outer boroughs. If I paid for my entire mortgage and maintenance without a roommate, it would take 20% of my gross, and I would live in a large 2 bedroom instead of a shitty studio. I choose to live with roommates. I could also easily afford to buy property in Manhattan. You assume I would because that’s what YOU would do. When I buy property again, it will be in a nice neighborhood just outside of Manhattan. Manhattan is, and has always been, overrated.

                Oh, and love the “great neighborhood” in Manhattan attempt. The UES will never be a “great” Manhattan neighborhood. But by all means, keep the dream alive! Maybe once the 2nd avenue subway line is done you’ll elevate from boondocks to acceptable.

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                • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

                  Secondly, because the entire reason you have lived in Manhattan since you were 24 is because you do live your life trying to impress a bunch of people who don’t give a shit about you (also the reason you created this dating blog).

                  I live here because I used to visit my aunt here as a child. That’s the only reason i live here. I like it. If I were trying to impress people with my digs, I’d take people’s advice and just buy a place.

                  This neighborhood is fantastic. Everything I need in 10 block radius, away from the noise of mid-town, near the river, safe and clean. I don’t know what you’re definition of great it, but that’s mine.

                  You’re the one making at about salaries and doormans and owning versus renting. You’re the one who cares about that. We’re perfectly happy with the state of our lives and our options. We’re not grumbling over how elitist or stupid or whatever people are. People want what they want. Some people value convenience and productivity. Maybe you don’t. Again, fine.

                  Adult women don’t want to date men with roommates. It’s inconvenient for all involved. It’s a hassle.By a certain age, if you have the means to live alone, then that’s the natural choice. People who choose to live with roommates when they can afford not to either can’t be alone or are cheap. That’s it. Don’t shoot the messenger.

                  You living alone in Manhattan counts for exactly what it is. A mid 40′s single woman with no property, no retirement, and a meager savings.

                  Again, wrong. But guys don’t care about renting or owning or whether I own property. I’m guessing you place such importance on it because you are trying to impress women.

                  That’s what makes your little tantrum so sad. There you are, with your big impressive apartment and net worth, and you still struggle to find someone. All that work, all that money, and nuthin’. I’d be pissed off, too.

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                  • WO7 Says:

                    You live by yourself in Manhattan because you believe that anyone outside of Manhattan and/or with roommates is inferior. You want everyone to know you’re superior, so you have done whatever needed to be done to live by yourself in Manhattan. If that means living in the lamest of the safe Manhattan neighborhoods? Done. If that means fucking up your savings and retirement? Done. If that means living in a shoebox? Done.

                    I love how you’re trying to make this about me when you’re the one telling people to look down on people who live with roommates and/or in the outer boroughs. I am providing the ying to your yang. I have no problem with people who would rather enjoy life now vs prepare for the future. I will probably end up with one as a counter balance to my tendencies to plan. I have a problem with you telling people coming here for advice to adopt your snobby and elitist views. So in order to help you see your own ways, I point out your snobbery, elitism, and the holes in your argument.

                    “Adult women don’t want to date men with roommates.” It’s funny that you believe this. You’re wrong. I know that blows your mind, but you’re wrong. Here, I’ll correct it for you: Snobby Manhattan princesses with no financial stability don’t want to date men with roommates. I have never once had a problem with dating, and I have had roommates all of my life. I have had 4 serious gfs in 12 years, and plenty of casual acquaintances. 2 of those gfs wanted to marry me, but I didn’t want to marry them. One I wanted to marry, but she didn’t want to marry me. Sounds like the pretty typical progression of how things work until you find the person that you actually marry.

                    You’re right, guys don’t care. Because this is a woman problem, not a man problem. Men are much more likely to give a woman a chance as long as the sexual attraction is there. It’s women who come up with these self defeating lists of things that doesn’t matter in order to ensure they end up single and alone when they get older.

                    I own property to impress women? Wow…that’s a stretch. I own property because it’s a smart move. If I cared about impressing women, I would do what you do. Rent in Manhattan with no savings and/or retirement.

                    The 40+ woman who runs a dating blog is trying to play the “you still struggle to find someone” card? That is TOO funny.

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                  • CoolDude Says:

                    “Adult women don’t want to date men with roommates. It’s inconvenient for all involved. It’s a hassle.By a certain age, if you have the means to live alone, then that’s the natural choice. People who choose to live with roommates when they can afford not to either can’t be alone or are cheap. That’s it. Don’t shoot the messenger.”

                    Adult women date men with roommates all the time. Where is this fact coming from?

                    As for being “cheap”, it’s a matter of priority. Do I want to spend more in rent and live alone while sitting in the dark 3-4 nights a week to save money OR do I want to lead a life I like and have someone else sleep in a room next to me and share a bathroom? Been working out great thus far, plus I get to live in Greenwich Village.

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          • wishing u well Says:

            What I think that WO7 is alluding to is this with some of his statements is this: you can be a hard working professional in a decent field NOT making $75K+ annually, but it does make it difficult to live in NYC alone in a quasi desirable area on your own. If you’re in the the $40K – $70K range, it gets challenging to do so comfortably (comfortable being defined by the 25% of gross income that WO7 alludes to). As someone who has a financial background qualifying people for mortgages – your overall DTI (debt-to-income) ratio is important. Paying too much to live in a certain location can have extremely detrimental consequences as most will have other finanical obligations to deal with (hello Sallie Mae!). So if you want to stay financially solvent and within the 25% making $40K – $70K, the answer is to have a roommate in NYC or live close enough to get there if you’re doing it on your own.

            When you truly have to do it all on your own, things take on an entirely new perspective. I think that the “elitist” statements are in reference to this: not all of us have family members who are able to help us financially at key moments or to leave us sizable trust funds. Some of us have to (or choose to) do it on our own. In my case, my parents told me “You had better study hard and get a scholarship for college because we can’t pay for it.” End of discussion. And in those situations, sacrifices may be required (hopefully short term ones). I have a soror who after fininshing her masters from Columbia and pursuing a teaching profession in NYC lives with a roommate because that’s life. Some of us have worked very hard to be where we are, made a point to obtain an education, and still find that certain sacrifices must be made.

            These are examples of items that I feel have been left out of the whole roommate discussion that should be addressed to bring balance to the conversation. To be fair, there may be some things that you may be out of touch with since as owning one’s own business with a semi low overhead (only referencing that as you don’t have to have a physical monthly office rental space to do what you do) has its perks versus being a corporate worker bee in today’s job market making XYZ money, depending where you end up. I think flexibility is key when it’s clear that this opinion only applies to a certain subset of people.

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        • LostSailor Says:

          So I guess you make over $81,600 a year?

          What my income is is none of your damn business. My rent is comfortably affordable. My savings and retirement are just fine, too. Perhaps I should post my financial statements and tax returns just so you can be satisfied that my finances are within your moralistic rules.

          We get it: you’re the special sparkly snowflake of financial responsibility. Anyone who lives outside of your proscribed path must be condemned!

          We also get that you seem to have a giant chip on your shoulder. I only ever seem to see you post when this one particular subject comes up. The idea that someone might choose to live in Manhattan and enjoy it, even if they might make other sacrifices to do so seems to fill you with inchoate rage.

          Dude: My choices are not your choices. I’m fine with mine, but you seem to be having some emotional difficulty living with yours.

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          • WO7 Says:

            You don’t have to tell me your income. It’s obvious from your post that it doesn’t reach $81,000.

            I actually am not condemning people who don’t choose my proscribed path. I’m condemning people who diss the people who live my path while their path sucks balls.

            I also don’t have a problem with anyone who lives in Manhattan. I don’t even have a problem with people who live in Manhattan when it’s out of their means.

            But I see several moron asshats on this website telling people who are desperately searching for someone to spend their life with to dismiss anyone who doesn’t live in Manhattan and/or who has roommates. That’s stupid, plain and simple. You want to tell people to dismiss fuck buddies or people their not interested in? Sure, sounds smart. But you’re telling someone to pass up what may be the love of their live just because they CURRENTLY don’t live in Manhattan, or because they CURRENTLY have roommates? Fuck that.

            If it was so damn easy to find someone to spend your life with, then this stupid ass blog wouldn’t exist. So why the hell would you make it harder by making a bunch of stupid rules that don’t matter?

            If you’re so self absorbed that you can’t be “bothered” to be “inconvenienced” by dating someone from an outer borough and/or with roommates; then you deserve to spend your life alone, or with someone as stupid and shallow as you are.

            It’s also about a reality check. I’m posting numbers on average income in Manhattan. I’m posting numbers on average rent prices in Manhattan. The numbers don’t add up. Manhattan is an island filled of people living above their means (NYC on a whole is as well). So you and your ilk are advising people to discriminate against the MAJORITY. And that’s going to help people get where they want to be with their love life how?

            The only people who sound like they have a chip on their shoulder, is you and Moxie. You are both desperate to prove that living in Manhattan on your own makes you superior to people who live with roommates and/or in an outer borough. This one data point makes you superior even when you’re inferior in a million other ways. That’s the chip.

            Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Throw yourself into the dating pool head first. Pursue anyone who you have a strong connection to; and don’t waste time on the people you don’t. Forget about all the shallow bullshit rules. Your happiness will not be affected by the stupid shit; and if it really will? Then love will find a way to conquer it. You’ll move to Brooklyn for them, or they’ll move to Manhattan for you. There’s always a solution.

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            • LostSailor Says:

              It’s obvious from your post that it doesn’t reach $81,000.

              And it’s obvious from your post that you’re a clueless git who doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

              I’m condemning people who diss the people who live my path while their path sucks balls.

              Moxie has only rightly pointed out that women tend to not want to date men, especially men over a certain age, who have roommates. It’s not that hard to grasp. It’s your bitter complaining that indicates you thing your life path sucks balls.

              you’re telling someone to pass up what may be the love of their live just because they CURRENTLY don’t live in Manhattan, or because they CURRENTLY have roommates?

              No one has said any such thing. If the love of my life lived outside of Manhattan or had roommates, it would matter nothing to me, nor, I suspect to most people. However, expecting people who live out of the local area where you live with roommates to ignore these considerations during the usually long process to discover if a person is the “love of your life” is ridiculous and slightly delusional.

              If you’re so self absorbed that you can’t be “bothered” to be “inconvenienced” by dating someone from an outer borough and/or with roommates

              Well at least you acknowledge that dating you involves bother and inconvenience. Tell me again exactly why someone should inconvenience themselves just for you?

              I’m posting numbers on average income in Manhattan. I’m posting numbers on average rent prices in Manhattan. The numbers don’t add up.

              The numbers don’t add up because they are averages and you’re comparing apples to oranges. They don’t reflect the on-the-ground reality that there are affordable apartments in Manhattan, but that it takes a little effort to find them.

              You are both desperate to prove that living in Manhattan on your own makes you superior to people who live with roommates and/or in an outer borough.

              I’ve made no judgment on your living arrangements, and I don’t see where Moxie has, either. That’s all in your head. My living arrangements make me superior to no one. My choice to live in Manhattan has nothing to do with status; it has everything to do with convenience. I work in Manhattan and most of my friends are here. I also lived in Brooklyn for about two years long ago. And I found that I don’t like spending hours on the subway. It’s also why I never moved to the ‘burbs; I hate commuting. Thinking logically and owning my own choices might make me superior, but not where I live.

              Forget about all the shallow bullshit rules. Your happiness will not be affected by the stupid shit…Then love will find a way to conquer it. You’ll move to Brooklyn for them

              What you call “bullshit” rules, I call legitimate preferences. Love conquers all works in romance novels and Lifetime movies. I won’t be moving to Brooklyn.

              I’m sorry that your lifestyle choices are making it more difficult to meet and date women. But they’re your choices that you have to live with; demanding other people make extra effort to accommodate those choices is unrealistic and a bit childish.

              And, with that, I’m out of this discussion. Need to finish up some stuff. Because I have a date tonight. In Manhattan. With a woman who lives in Manhattan.

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              • WO7 Says:

                “And, with that, I’m out of this discussion. Need to finish up some stuff. Because I have a date tonight. In Manhattan. With a woman who lives in Manhattan.”

                HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *gasp* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

                That comment right there says it all!

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  9. Mickey Says:

    There’s a certain independence that you acquire when you live on their own that you simply can’t get any other way.

    No, I don’t think living at home and having roommates are the same. If you rent an affordable apartment (at the time if renting) and ‘shit happens (you lose your job, rent increase)’, what are you to do, move to a smaller place with a lower rent? Easier said than done, especially if you own a home. Do you sell your place to avoid having a roommate who can help you pay your mortgage? No, you get a roommate until the dust settles. Having a roommate does not provide the same safety net that’s provided when you live at home.

    Balding is not that big of a deal, shave it off and join the ranks. If staying at home until you finish school is the only option, maybe you should date women who understand the culture; there are cultures other than your who practice this as well. Yeah, it limits your dating pool but as Moxie said, you’d have to make sacrifices.

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  10. Robyn Says:

    I’ve dated one or two men who had never left home – were still living with “Mommy” / “The Parents”.

    It didn’t work out – in various ways they were still dependent on their parents and/or had not fully taken charge of running their own lives and being 100% responsible for themselves. There ended up being a noticeable maturity gap between us, despite our being fairly close in biolgical age, that became a dealbreaker.

    Many women will see a man that has never left home as some one who is looking for a replacement mother and/or as some one who can’t function as a 100% responsible and independent adult – even if he has all that dough in the bank account, they will not be interested in him.

    It’s a different story if some one moves back in with their aged parents to take care of them (which is happening quite a lot these days as the older boomers age/get sick/get frail).
    But if you’re over the age of 30 & you’ve never left home…. dude, you’re way overdue for cutting those apron strings (IMHO anyway).

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    • wishing u well Says:

      Not to mention the uncomfortable logisitics of dating someone who lives at home, such as the fact that when you’re out with your girlfriend and you don’t come home, the parents know why. If the OP’s parents are traditional – this does not bode well for the woman, as they will likely judge her negatively for this. As adults, it is expected that our dating lives be separate from our parents. There’s a difference between your parents knowing you’re dating a girl and knowing in real time – when you come home, if you’re upset, the differences in patterns, etc. Furthermore no one likes being transplanted back to being a teenager in some ways in their dating life, and the longer you’ve been out on your own, the less likely you are to be patient with the scenario.

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  11. Kristine Says:

    I’m glad that someone asked this question because I often struggle with it, and it’s interesting to see the level of judgement people pass. It’s actually exhausting. I think that it really depends on your circumstances, personally. While I would prefer a guy who lives on his own, that doesn’t make the man. I’ve dated enough “man-childs” to know that. As a newly minted 30 year old woman, I often wonder if I should admit that I live with my parents. Does this make me not independent? Does that make me immature? I think to know me, you would say I’m pretty damn independent actually. I bought my own condo at 25, lost my job <1 month later, and started my own business 2 months after that. Timing sucks, but instead of being miserable, I am following my passion. It takes a while to get your business income to the same level, so while I lived completely alone for 2 years in that condo, I now rent it out (losing a couple hundred per month) and moved in with my parents 2 years ago so that I can have a chance to even remain in business. My goal is to sell my condo, then ultimately move back out and buy another place once my feet are back under me. It's a sacrafice that I made, but I guess that these decisions were not mature… I really need to grow up.

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    • Robyn Says:

      Kristine – the big difference here is that you have lived independently & have done a bunch of independent things like buy your own place & start your own business.
      You’re waaaaaay different from some one who has never left home, never lived alone, never rented their own apartment or bought their own home & had to manage their own abode.

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  12. LostSailor Says:

    Sorry, Guy, most women aren’t going to care about your MS degree, law school, or steady job. Those are pretty much the basics people expect these days. And they’re probably not going to care about your savings account.

    As Moxie correctly noted, they will definitely care that you’re 30 and still living at home with your parents. It’s great that you want to watch out for them, but what a prospective date sees is a man who hasn’t ever made it on his own. Living at home with your parents signals weakness and an inability to stand on your own (whether true or not). It’s long past time to move out.

    Hell, when I was 22 I didn’t just move out, I moved out to another country.

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  13. Z-gal Says:

    Does the same standard apply to women ? I lived with my parents after becoming an attorney (way past age 30), and never ever had a problem finding great accomplished men to date. I dated a doctor, a couple of lawyers, and now engaed to an engineer. (All these guys were about 6′.) They thought it was cute and sweet that I lived with my folks.

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    • HammersAndNails Says:

      The kind of guys who like to “take care of” a girl don’t mind. Men looking for a partner to share responsibility with and respect as an equal do not prefer it. I’m not trying to pass judgement. Both are valid relationship styles.

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      • Z-gal Says:

        Since I am a professional with a well-paying career, I don’t need a guy to take care of me financially. I insist on paying my fair share on outings and dinners. Although living with folks, I am an independent thinker and am quite opinionated regarding politics and other issues. But guys definitely help me out regarding carrying heavy items and mechanical things in the home and car.

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        • HammersAndNails Says:

          Fair or not, by personal experience is that the when things go very wrong the girl that’s always been daddy’s little princess is going is more likely to freak out and become my biggest problem, instead of being helpful in resolving the problem.

          When our flight gets cancelled and all the hotels are booked, I want the girl thats going to jump on couchsurfing while I’m still on the phone with the airline, not the one that’s going to cry about it and sob that she just couldn’t possibly spend the night in the airport.

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          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            Yes. Because that happens so often. Jesus. I guess we should overlook the fact that the people being all snarky about my opinions about adults with roommates are also the people who constantly complain about how hard it is to meet women. Gee. What a coincidence.

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            • HammersAndNails Says:

              I was trying to illustrate a point succinctly.

              Are you trying to say I have a hard time meeting women? I’m quite happy with my love life. It would be nice to have more online success, but my face to face endeavors go well.

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              • Greg Figueroa Says:

                The only roommate that counts is the bf/gf that moves in. LOL

                Moxie is not all the way wrong, but I dispute that guys with roommates can’t get action. If you’re confident or just don’t care, girls seem still willing to date guys with roommates. She’s discounting the women who either don’t care or say one thing, but do/accept another.

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        • Greg Figueroa Says:

          Your dad is taking care of you in a way.

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          • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

            Your comment says you’re replying to ZGal. Are you replying to her or me?

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    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Oh thank God. I’d hate for you to have to live at home in your mid thirties AND date a short guy. That would be cruel and unusual punishment.

      Your comments are retarded.

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      • Marie Says:

        Hahaha. But come on! She had to prove she could pull desirable men despite that she lives at home still! Because, honestly, height is really what is most important after all.

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        • Z-gal Says:

          Why would I have to PROVE something to people I don’t even know. Moxie seems very narrow-minded. Different people have different values. Moxie imagines herself to be some master of human psychology. She knows all !! Because she got a Communications Degree ??? Seems too silly. You’re welcome..

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          • Marie Says:

            Moxie never said she knows the answers, she gives her opinions on different topics. People read her blog to get her viewpoint. Big difference.

            The reason I’m poking fun at you right now is not because you live at home and not because you have preferences. Rather, I’m making fun of you because you throwing in that these men are all 6′ tall has about as much relevance as you telling me that you’re allergic to mushrooms. Great! Good to know (or not really)… Just not quite sure how it’s relevant.

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          • Jeff Says:

            I don’t think Moxie is as narrow minded as she is angry & pissed off at the world. Whatever she imagines herself to be one thing remains consistent: She she is alone. Sure she has an occasional B/F but they never seem to stay around all that long. I suspect this plus looking through the windshield of life seeing the big 50 in the ever approaching distance contributes to this anger.

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      • Z-gal Says:

        You didn’t answer my query. And I was just stating what I value in a guy. What’s wrong with that ? Why can’t someone disagree with you without you insulting them ? You seem bitter. I’m sorry for that.

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        • mindstar Says:

          Because as others have pointed out it comes across as bragging. To wit I am so much better than everyone else because I even though Im “…way past 30″ and still live with my parents (notwithstanding that I am a professional with a well paying career) I still managed to date a doctor, lawyers and I’m now engaged to an engineer and btw they were all over 6 ft. I seriously question the maturity level of anyone man or woman who still living at home at 30+ let alone a professional with a well paying career.

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          • Z-gal Says:

            Are you guys that sensitive ?? I can only disclose negatives ? I can’t give the facts ??
            Giving objective facts is NOT bragging. And why would I want to brag to people who don’t know me ?
            I wanted to give another true life perspective. (Apropos, I come from a European background and living at home was no big deal.)

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    • Jen Says:

      If you’re a professional with a high paying career why do you live with your parents?

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      • Z-gal Says:

        I didn’t feel the need to move out. I liked hanging with the folks. And folks were not home 2 days a week. I liked keeping an eye on the home (5 bedroom, 5 bathroom house). I did my own laundry and paid my own bills. Being a first generation European may have had a little to do with it. I don’t understand Moxie’s narrow-minded arrogance and her self-proclaimed “ability to see past people’s conscious emotions and detect their true intentions.” And to support such ability with a Communications Degree is comical. Sorry but I guess I am not sugar-coating either.

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    • AnnieNonymous Says:

      I think it depends on circumstances. Young adults can’t change how much they owe in student loans, nor can they magically start making more money. I know quite a few people hovering around 30 who are living at home because they can’t afford to move out until they’re ready to move in with their partners or find people who would make good roommates. In fact, I’ve seen a lot of people become enmeshed in absolutely horrible relationships because they can’t afford living situations where they’re not splitting the costs of a bedroom.

      The real problem is that the OP doesn’t want to move out. I absolutely wouldn’t negatively judge a guy who was working full-time and wanted to move out but hadn’t yet had everything line up for him. The student loan thing is practically Godwin’s Law of 20-somethings on the internet, but when you owe $1,000 a month (which is somewhat normal, depending on the school and when you went), you can’t afford to live roommate-free on a starting salary that might not top $25,000 a year. I don’t live in NYC, but I don’t know any adults of any age who live completely alone. The job market doesn’t support that.

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      • LostSailor Says:

        I don’t live in NYC, but I don’t know any adults of any age who live completely alone.

        Uh, I live alone and at the moment prefer it. My 91-year-old mother lives alone. Not sure what you’re getting at here….

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        • Brian Says:

          I don’t know why people criticize when they don’t even know the situation they are in i would rather live at home and save money for a house then move out and pay rent utilities, food etc your not saving anything. Having room mates is just the same as living at home your paying your share of rent because with no room mates majority of the Population would be still living at home. So if a girl doesn’t want to date you and doesn’t understand your situation you wouldn’t want to be with that person.

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    • WO7 Says:

      Nope. It’s one of the many double standards.

      Side rant: The one thing that people on this blog seem to continue to forget, is that none of this shit matters.

      You’re on a dating blog because you want help finding THAT person who you can spend the rest of your life with.

      Well shit, perhaps start by taking away all the stupid obstacles you set for yourself that hinder your chance to meet someone great. All these inconveniences…are just that. Inconvenient. They matter when you’re dating someone who doesn’t mean anything to you. They don’t matter when you’re dating someone who does.

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      • HammersAndNails Says:

        Why do relationship junkies always find it so hard to believe that not everyone is looking to follow the script. I have no real interest in find THAT one. I come here for the interesting discussion. I doubt I will be ready to settle down any time soon.

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        • WO7 Says:

          Where in my post does it suggest that I find it hard to believe that not everyone is looking to find THAT one?

          I’m giving advice for people who are. If you’re not, then do whatever you want. If all you’re looking for is to fuck, or have convenient pseudo gf’s, then you’d be better off on a PUA site then a website called “And that’s why you’re single.”

          Also, the idea that I was recommending a “script” is ludicrous. What I’m recommending is the opposite of a script. I recommend being open minded and giving as many things a try as possible.

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  14. Nikki Says:

    Can we talk about the inter-racial dating for a moment?

    OP, i totally get it. My bff is chinese, and I have known her family for almost 15 years. Her father, who speaks english fluently, never speaks english to me….and he knows i don’t speak chinese. I have no idea what that’s about, but i do have some insight to the family thing. Not saying asian=chinese, but i’m saying that the only pressure you’ll get to challenge the status quo will come from you.

    It’s actually faux pas to date outside your culture. (Yes, I said it). I know this is NY, but having done this myself (and actually married outside my race), I understand the pressure from the family to conform. Furthermore, it doesn’t make it easier when the other nationalities just aren’t interested…and you’re not interested in being someone else’s exotica.

    Bottom line is that you have to find a way to make yourself sexy. And much of this means going against the family paradigm. So everyone else said move out. Got it. It’s a hygiene factor – like having a job. So we know step 1.

    Step 2 is that you’ve gotta make yourself physically attractive to a wide variety of mulit-cultural women. In a nutshell, this means: (1) shave your head so you don’t look so bald, (2) go to the gym and get buff, and (3) get some new clothes because the ones your mom buys you just aren’t working. The “hot” look is very western. Which is difficult to pull off if you’re not a six-foot-Aussie-looking-white-guy. So you’ll have to find a way to make it work for you. But make it western and don’t let it become desperate.

    Finally, you’ve got to find your groove. So what’s your thing? You like self-deprecitaing humor? become a funny guy. you dig food (because, really who doesn’t?) start a foodie meet up. take up a hobby. learn to dance or something. But make the outside you just as interesting and authentic as the inside you. chicks of all nationalities dig an authentic guy. :)

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  15. AnnieNonymous Says:

    The usual reasons (student loans, bad job market) don’t apply to this guy. He has enough money for a down payment on a decent place. There’s a personal reason that he’s scared to move out.

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    • Z-gal Says:

      A guy living at home would NOT deter me from dating him. In fact, I think that would show that he is NOT a player sort. His living arrangements would be a very small factor as to whether I would date him. What I do value is: humor, intelligence, education, professional career, honesty, not a player, fair/good athelete and good looks (especially taller than me and not fat).

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      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        Yes, because you know how fatties aren’t very helpful with all that heavy lifting you love for men to do.

        Here’s why you’re okay dating men who live with their parents: Because that means there won’t be a lot of sex. You’re welcome.

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        • Z-gal Says:

          I can’t have a preference ?? I admit I like tall fit men. It’s OK for guys to prefer fit women… but not OK for women to prefer fit men ??? I don’t understand your point..

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          • fuzzilla Says:

            The point is it’s odd/outside the norm to prefer someone whose parents are gonna hear your screaming orgasms in the next room (or yours would, as you mention you live at home). Your comments make it sound like sex isn’t terribly important to you in a relationship.

            Actually, is this the OP’s issue? Living with his parents gives him an easy “out” in the sex/intimacy department?

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            • fuzzilla Says:

              If the OP is 30, his parents are probably a bit young to need him to “keep an eye on them.” I mean, sure, health problems can strike at any age, but it sounds like an excuse.

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              • Eliza Says:

                Fuzzilla: It IS an excuse. He’s 30, and is educated…has a master’s degree and IS working…so it’s a big excuse. A person can live close to their parents..and be there for them at a moment’s notice. I do that. But I don’t live with them, and off of them…to save money. And we have a great relationship because of that. I firmly believe that having that space from one’s parents – after a certain age DOES change the dynamics of that parent/child/adult relationship…and for the better. That’s my perspective. And health issues can strike anytime…while you are out on a date (unfortunately)…you have zero control of that. Unless you are chained to your parents 24/7. Which the OP clearly is not-busy with law school and work, etc. The cultural excuse is just that–an excuse. At what age does one “stand on their own two feet” and make their own decisions..whether it aligns with a parent’s or not. Eventually your parents will come around and learn to accept that you are your own person..and if you want/need to have your freedom…they will respect and accept you if they do love you unconditionally. It all boils down to what is most important to you. Freedom? Well, there is a price for it…and well worth it. One doesn’t have to live in some apt. out of Home and Gardens…to have a cozy place to call their own, and a place to host an intimate night – without mommy lurking next doors! lol…how embarrassing must that be – at any age. Yes??

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

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            • Z-gal Says:

              So the real reason to live on your home is to have sex. It’s true. Sex isn’t that important for me in the initial stages of a relationship. I really like to get to know someone very well before I would do that. My previous boyfriends were guys I met in school (e.g., I went to law school later in life), and at work. So I knew these men for almost a year before I went out with them. However, current relationship is a match.com find.

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          • Greg Figueroa Says:

            Height would deter you from dating them.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

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            • Z-gal Says:

              Depends on how tall, and what other attributes he has. Everyone has an aesthetic that they find as ideal. Maybe you would not be deterred from dating a girl that you didn’t find physically atttractive. That’s terrific. I admire that.

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  16. chillybeans Says:

    I dated a guy who lived with his mom, but he did own a house-it was on the market as part of his divorce agreement and it was a slow real estate market and took months to sell. Once it sold, he bought his own place.
    As should YOU! You have an MS and can’t figure out that real estate appreciates better than that crappy .1% the banks are giving out these days ( you didn’t specify how it’s invested)? Like Moxie said, a mortgage and 25K in savings makes more sense. It shows you can take care of yourself.
    Another thing women don’t like? Guys with advanced degrees and zero common sense.

    I grew up in a culture too, where children stayed at home until they were a lot older, but hey, I live in the USA and things are different here. I rented my own apartment at 21 and bought my house at 29.
    Grow up!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

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    • Eliza Says:

      chillybeans…as a woman living alone, I would find it unappealing and annoying if I had to host quiet evenings constantly. For me, there’s nothing sexier than a man who is able to have me over for a quiet evening…and cook a nice meal. That’s impressive. Yes…men who can cook! It demonstrates that a man can take care of himself, when he is on his own–I admire that. The place doesn’t have to be decorated much or immaculate.

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      • chillybeans Says:

        Somehow I think I man who has only lived with his parents doesn’t know how to cook…..LOL
        My point was more that there are certain rare circumstances when living with a parent shouldn’t be held against someone, ie one of my coworkers had cancer and moved back in with his dad while he was undergoing chemo/treatment.
        Living with parents should be finite, and for a def. reason. Not out of laziness and cheapness like it seems the OP is doing. Most unsexy!

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

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        • Eliza Says:

          Cheapitis is a terminal disease, and quite crippling when dating..ANYONE. It’s just very unappealing. And yes, given certain circumstances…I would totally understood and expect someone wanting to move back home…to care for a parent around the clock like that. But that’s not long-term, and merely to “save money”. I know a man that moved back with his mom at the age of 47! after getting divorced. He claims he doesn’t have enough to cover expenses…yet in another breath brags about earning about $100K per year. That’s “Cheap”. What a sad existence..to sleep on some twin bed, under mommy’s roof..at the age of 49 or 50. I would rather rent a room..but have my dignity! In that case, even a roommate would be a better option.

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  17. joe-f Says:

    I am going to tell you the truth without sugarcoating.

    1) Your family values and saving money don’t match other cultures’ values. Those are very Asian values and you want to date nonAsians. So something has to give, either appeal to the American culture, where the saving rate is very low and most adults live away from their parents or look for that Asian girl. Otherwise you are going to have a hard time trying to find your Asian values in a nonAsian women.

    2) Your message reeks of low confidence. Balding and bad singer, who cares? You are gainfully employed and going to law school at night. You could be in the top 1% in a few years. As you become more successful, you will become more attractive to women. By the time you hit 35, you would need to beat them back with a stick.

    3) Cut the losers. Any women who don’t see what is good about you and looks down on you, stop contact, don’t waste anymore time and move on.

    4) Are you sleeping at the sermon? If your church is anything like my church, there is a 3 to 1 ratio of women to guys. Most christian women want to settle down and get married. My sister-in-law and her friends are all single because the only guys who go to church are already married. It is time to change churches.

    Finally, why the fetish with dating outside your culture? You know you are going to have a hard time convincing nonAsians to eat with your parents or to eat a lot of Asian food. Unless your parents speak English, there is a language and cultural barrier too.

    Good luck

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0

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    • fuzzilla Says:

      Church seems like a decent idea. He doesn’t mention if he’s religious or goes to church but he seems pretty socially conservative (**But I am constantly seeing that people value someone that lives on their own but has family values. I am little lost on that concept.** – does that mean he’d feel like he’s “abandoning” his parents by moving out, or that the only reason he can see for moving out is premarital sex which he thinks is wrong?).

      Moxie is right that living with your parents (and no pre-marital sex, if that’s the case) is a turnoff to most women. If he’s truly happy with the status quo, he should find his audience and seek out very socially conservative women or women from his own culture who’d “get” him a bit more, from church or Christian Mingle or one of the more niche dating sites.

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  18. Z-gal Says:

    I would like to contact the person who posted the query. Is that OP ? I think he might be a good set-up for my girlfriend. She is an “ABC,” i.e., ” American Born Chinese.” She is very cute and has a great career as a CPA. She lives in Queens in a co-op apartment that she owns. She lives by herself. Her ex-boyfriend was a Chinese guy who lived with his parents. So I know that she will NOT be deterred from dating a guy who lives with his folks. Please someone let me know how to contact the poster ?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 7

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    • Z-gal Says:

      WHY would this get a thumbs down ?? Why ??

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5

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    • Eliza Says:

      cool – a set up! lol…as they say…”there is a lid for every pot!” heehee.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

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      • Z-gal Says:

        Well, Moxie hasn’t given me a way to contact OP. Either she doesn’t have the information to enable such contact, or she doesn’t want to assist in an endeavor which does not align with her narrow world view. It is a pity since it could have been a love connection.

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        • Jen Says:

          Maybe she thinks you’re crazy?

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          • Z-gal Says:

            She seems to be exposed to a limited type of people. Ironic how someone living in NYC could have such an insular world view. And when she is challenged, she resorts to insults and ad hominem attacks. And such rude behavior is justified by her self-proclaimed “ability to see past people’s conscious emotions and detect their true intentions.” And to support such ability with a Communications Degree is comical.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

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            • D. Says:

              Or it could be she just hasn’t paid attention to this message just yet, or hasn’t had time to get back to you. Or it could be that she’s bearing in mind that the OP said he prefers to date non-Asian women. Admittedly, perhaps to his own detriment, but that’s what he’s after currently if we take him at his word. Or maybe she asked the OP and he simply said “no thanks.”

              I expect if the OP is interested, he can always set up a new email account specifically to contact you and get your friend’s info. No need to rely on Moxie to play intermediary.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3

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              • fuzzilla Says:

                The OP said “whenever I want to date someone outside my ethnicity,” not that he would *only* date outside his ethnicity. I guess that might indicate a preference, but he never said ethnicity was a deal-breaker.

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  19. Roy Says:

    As a man, I will say the shift in confidence from being independent and standing on your own is huge. I was a 25 year old never-been-kissed boy when I moved out of my grandparents place(27 now). My first time spending the night in my own queen-size bed… There’s a lot of peace in that. Probably did not hurt that I also shared my bed that same evening. OP is under his parents influence for sure.

    And to those saying ‘I’ to the roommate situation as the ideal; if the place where you live is not 100% clothing optional in all rooms, you are missing out on a gorgeous chunk of freedom.

    OP, if you’re that concerned about your folks, do what I did. Take that wad of cash (I was also a miser and saved over $25k on a 30-35k income) and use it as your down payment for a place near your folks place. You can even give them a key to use if you can draw the line with your parents that the keys are for emergencies only. Get your space, and make it your own, and then flourish in your independence and discover who you really are as you build that critical confidence. This advice is assuming that you want to succeed with dating the modern American woman. If you insist on living out another culture, you will have to network the hell out of that niche. But living on your own would grant you the opportunity to develop your own culture, one that you can relax in and simply be.

    It’s worth it, and you’re worth it OP, trust me.

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  20. LP Says:

    Here is what I see: a burden. I moved in with a boyfriend coming straight out of his mother’s house, and let me tell you he could not function, and I was not going to set rules for him because I ASSUMED he was an adult at 22. Assume makes an ass out of you and me.

    Get yourself a bachelor pad near your parents, as other commenters have suggested. Perhaps trying to date girls from church who have the same moral compass around living with parents until marriage will be helpful as well. I have a friend in your situation. You’re not the only one on the planet with these values.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 5

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  21. VJ Says:

    Unfortunately Moxie’s right on this score, no matter the cultural mismatch. And yes, sorry, both sexes are quite guilty of this folly, and it’s ugly and Infantalizing in ways that are difficult to imagine but disabling to and for functioning as an adult. That’s the bottom line. It’s no longer the 19th century or the ‘old country’ Grow up:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2310469/No-rent-maid-service-dads-credit-card-Long-Islands-spoilt-princesses-refuse-leave-home-let-privileged-lifestyles.html

    Cheers, ‘VJ’

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 5

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  22. Sarah Says:

    “I am a[n] only child, I love my parents, and I have friends, but apparently I am not good enough because I live with my parents?” –> YES. This. Absolutely. What’s your question?

    “So my question is, how can I level the playing field where I can date other women of different nationalities and not have to face that stigma?” –> Oh, well, if that’s your question, then I’m pretty sure THAT’S RACIST, which could also be off putting to women.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 2 Thumb down 9

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  23. Roxy Says:

    I disagree that you need to move out. A good woman will understand you’re cultural reasons and appreciate your family values. A good woman would also LOVE to hear that you’re taking care of your parents. It shows that you’re a loving, caring person.

    I do think, though, that a successful relationship with a good woman will require you to put the relationship and her first most of the time.

    If she wants more privacy, you can rent a nice hotel room for weekend getaways and such.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 5

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  24. monica Says:

    The real problem I find with this guy is not that he lives home with his parents. Guys who claim to have deep cultural ties, yet want to “date” (f*ck) women of different nationalities/ethnicities until they have to marry and commit (usually to someone of their own background to please their parents) are lame. Although he’s probably polite and pays for dates, the women can sense that he believes that American women are all like the women he sees on reality TV (shameless “sluts”). In other words he appears to just want as many sexual adventures as he can get before he settles with a virgin.

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    • Steve Says:

      Owww. Sounds like Monica got pumped and dumped and is venting now. There is no need to insult people, particularly with assertions that are plain wrong.

      Listen sister: it is quite easy for a white guy living in places like Singapore, Kuwait and the Philippines to f*ck as many women from different nationalities as he wants. These women are looking for to hook up with a foreigner and perhaps marry one. With internet dating, a lay is just a click away. I am not kidding. If you are a guy and want to feel like a rock star, be an expat in one of these places. You will have poontang coming out of your ying yang. Sex is limited only by the amount of time you have available. After coming back to America, these American “shameless sluts” are so far from the truth. Guys are dating flakes, paying for dates, and not getting any sex. Want a relationship? Guaranteed success and satisfaction for an American man there.

      My advice to any guy who has to face this BS from women like “monica” is to date abroad. There are plenty of beautiful, sexy, educated women interested in a relationship with you from places like Latin America, Asia, and Central Asia. My best advice are Moscow, Shanghai, Tokyo/Osaka, and Singapore. Speaking from an expat with experience, I think I will definitely go that route now.

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  25. me Says:

    incredibly short sighted response AND comments to the question. when you get married what is along with all of the other things you must have in order even consider marrying a person– what is REALLY important? what is one of the biggest sources of strain in a marriage? it’s not sex people, it’s MONEY. going into any relationship let alone marriage with zero debt and liquid assets will make life a hell of a lot easier. the woman who winds up with this guy is a lucky lucky person. I hope he finds the right person who can truly build their life together and brings her own assets into the marriage. and before everyone screams “golddigger ” in response to my take on things — keep this in mind, what to rich do for their children? they give them liquid and other assets to give them a head start in life. his approach is the cost effective middle class version of it. also I am married and both of us have at some point spent time living with our respective families while dating and in fact when I met my husband he was living with his parents. SO WHAT?

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  26. Brian Says:

    I don’t know why people criticize when they don’t even know the situation they are in i would rather live at home and save money for a house then move out and pay rent utilities, food etc your not saving anything. Having room mates is just the same as living at home your paying your share of rent because with no room mates you can’t financially afford to live on your own the majority of the Population would be still living at home. So if a girl doesn’t want to date you and doesn’t understand your situation you wouldn’t want to be with that person.

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  27. Kasey Says:

    If you love your parents and want to spend this time with them while you finish your degree then fuck everyone else. The author just reeks of trust fund baby. Regular people are struggling to meet their bills and often have now useless college degrees. Screw you Moxie.

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  28. Ishtar Says:

    I don’t know what housing prices are like in the States. Probably there is a lot of variety. From what I understand in most big cities there isn’t a housing problem.

    This is completely different in Europe. There are massive housing shortages in urbanised, Northern and Western parts of the continent. The urban areas are where the jobs and entertainment are. The roads are jampacked and it’s frequently not possible to commute if you don’t want to be stuck in traffic jams each way. Rents in many towns and cities in my country start at 800 euros for a 1-bedroom apartment (with ONE bathroom, more than one is a norm only in the States), but more frequently nowadays they start at over 1000 euros. Rents in the capital city start at 1400 euros p/m for a single bedroom apartment. You get the idea.

    I do think the OP needs to move out as he seems to be making good money and does not have a real excuse to not move. But I just want to point out that moving out on your own has only been feasible since very recently in history. Now we are going back to what was always the norm in societies, people living with their parents.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

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    • Robyn Says:

      Hi Ishtar,

      Housing in the big major US cities IS very expensive. There is a massive shortage of “affordable” housing in Boston, New York & San Francisco and other big cities.

      Cost of renting an apartment in NYC:
      “As of November, 2014, average apartment rent within 10 miles of New York, NY is $3288.

      One bedroom apartments in New York rent for $2933 a month on average and two bedroom apartment rents average $3670.” (http://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-new-york-rent-trends/)
      Cost of renting an apartment in Boston:
      “As of November, 2014, average apartment rent within 10 miles of Boston, MA is $2418.

      One bedroom apartments in Boston rent for $2080 a month on average and two bedroom apartment rents average $2524.”
      (http://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-boston-rent-trends/)
      And just the other day The Boston Globe newspaper reported that in order to afford a median-priced apartment in Boston, you need to be earning at least $100K per year (i.e. if you want something better or bigger than average, you’d better be earning well over $100K per year).

      I can see why the OP is reluctant to move out – but at the age of 30 he is overdue for spreading his wings & living on his own. Even if he ends up sharing a place with a room-mate, he needs to cut those apron strings and start living a truly adult life independent of his parents.

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      • Ishtar Says:

        That is really awful. Governments really need to start building affordable housing. But in my country the social housing has been mostly flogged off by successive right-wing governments. As a result there are only expats (who are also responsible for driving up housing prices, by the way) and trust-fund kids (whose rich parents bought them an apartment) living in the capital city. The working classes have been driven out mostly.

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  29. Speed Says:

    The OP’s main issue is lack of confidence. He won’t even identify his ethnicity (Pakistani? Saudi? Vietnamese? Dominican? What?). Whatever you are, own it. Look in the mirror: if you aren’t confident with what you see, how can you be confident with women? I’m black. I’m own it. Case closed.

    I’ve worked in a lot of countries where it’s usual for people to live at home until marriage. Moreover, in many cases the eldest son is expected to live (along with his bride) with his parents after marriage. So I can see where the OP is coming from.

    Yet, if he plans to date, marry, and/or live in the States, he has to adjust to life here. He has to either convince his parents to adapt to a more Western lifestyle (where very few people life with parents after age 25), or he has to find a woman of his own ethnicity (the easiest route, actually, unless, as I suspect, his insecurity is driving him to get a Malibu Barbie for racial validation/acceptance), or a Western or other woman who is willing to adapt to his culture.

    Any road he takes is going to be very difficult (except, ironically, getting a woman from his own ethnicity), but he should start on it now, instead of moping on how he can’t pick up Cameron Diaz and take her back to live with mom and dad.

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