Has Hanging Out Replaced Actual Dating?

Name: Christinebaddate

Comment: My question is: at what point should you become a top priority in the guy you’re dating’s life?

I’ve been seeing this guy for about 2 months. We met through okcupid. He’s 28, and I’m 26. Our first 3 dates were very nice – dinner followed by drinks at a bar. For our fourth date, he invited me to a party his friend was having. So, I got to meet a bunch of his friends (I think it went well). However, the next few times we met up were either late at night with his friends, or me meeting him after he’d already hung out with his friends. I have tried to be flexible about this, because he’s been flexible with me to an extent (there were a few times he wanted to meet up and I couldn’t because of work or prior commitments with my own friends, but I suggested alternative days, which he agreed to).

Last Friday night, he texted me around 8pm telling me he was going to dinner with his friends, and would be in touch later about when we could get together. I already had plans, so I told him I couldn’t do tonight but how about Saturday. He said that was fine. But Saturday, his idea of plans was to meet me at a bar after he (again) had dinner with his friends.

I agreed to meet him, and basically just told him that this arrangement wasn’t working for me. I said I wanted to get to know him better, and that that wasn’t going to happen if we were always meeting late at night or with his friends. He seemed to genuinely agree with me and apologized profusely. He chalked it up to his being “very immature”, and basically told me that it’s difficult for him to make me a priority over his guy friends whom he’s known for 10 years (since college), while he’s known me for only 2 months. He also mentioned how a lot of his guy friends are starting to get married etc and that he finds that scary, but that he understands it’s just a natural progression and that he probably needs to grow up and behave differently, and that he does like me a lot.

I asked if he’d be able to change his behavior, since I didn’t see a point in continuing this if not, and he said he wasn’t sure, and asked if he could think about it. I said “sure” (which seemed to surprise him – maybe he was expecting me to freak out or yell at him), and then suggested we leave and he could let me know.

So, we went our separate ways that night, and I really wasn’t sure whether I’d ever hear from him again. 2 days later, he texted me asking if I’d like to have dinner with him on Saturday at 8pm at a very nice restaurant. He didn’t directly address our prior conversation, but I was obviously thrilled, and took the dinner suggestion plus the early time as a sign that he did want to try with me.

Then, incredibly, on Saturday morning, he cancelled on me. He told me that he was unaware that three of his good college friends were in town on Saturday, and all of his friends had plans to meet up and that he didn’t want to miss this. He said we’d just move the dinner to another night. I said fine and have fun.

So, now I’m sitting here wondering what I should do. Do I just end it? I feel like with the Saturday invitation he took a step forward, only to immediately take 2 steps back with the cancellation. Or should I continue to see him hoping he becomes more attached and wants to spend more time with me?

Am I unreasonable to expect him to make me a priority after 2 months of dating? He does have a large group of friends that he seems very close with.

Or is he just not that interested? I don’t think he is seeing anyone else (based on his availability to see me on both Friday and Saturday sometimes).

If he’s not that interested, is there anything I can do to get him interested in me again?
Age: 25
City: New York
State: NY

 

I followed up with the OP and asked whether or not she was sleeping with this guy. Here’s her answer:

I went through every date in my head: We did sleep together on every date except the first and sixth dates (first because it was the first, and sixth because we were both way too drunk).

Before I get into my answer to this letter, let’s address the whole “I didn’t sleep with him on the first date because it was the first date, but I TOTALLY boned him on the second date” thing. If you’re going to wait to have sex because that’s what you’re comfortable with and you want to get to know someone, then actually wait. Sleeping with a guy on the second date just because it’s not the first date achieves absolutely nothing other than letting the guy know you follow a bunch of arbitrary, stupid rules. Any regard or respect you think you gained by waiting ONE WHOLE DATE exists only in your head. Guys play along because nine times out of ten the woman who says she doesn’t have sex on the first date usually puts out on the second date. It’s childish and immature and is a red flag (albeit one they overlook) to a man.

It sounds like you want him to be more flexible while at the same time not being terribly flexible yourself. When you don’t cancel plans due to work or commitments to friends, it’s somehow acceptable. But when he does it, he’s wrong.

He pre-emptively admitted that he’s immature and feeling pressured to settle down because all of his friends are getting married, etc. It’s a ruse. He told you that to get you to back down a bit. He was just beating you to the inevitable punch. He knew where you were going with this, and has probably even heard the same complaints from other women, so he decided to throw himself down on the sword. He was telling you, in a nice way, that he’s taken you out a handful of times and you need to chill and that his friends mean more to him than you do at this point.

He took you out on four “real” dates. He’s done with that. You’re not someone for whom he’s going to rearrange his life. If you want to end it, do it. He’s anticipating that. He’s going to continue doing what he wants because he’s not invested in whether you stick around. He won’t cut you loose because he’s not going to give up the consistent sex. He might even miss you, but he’s not going to fight to keep you.

Am I unreasonable to expect him to make me a priority after 2 months of dating?

Nice try. You’ve had all of 6 to 8 dates with him. You’re saying you’ve been dating for about two months because framing it in those terms lends credibility to your argument. In reality, it’s been a handful of dates. No, it’s not reasonable to expect to be a top priority to a man you’ve dated 6 or 7 times. At best you’ve spent all of 36-48 hours together with him. You and he barely know each other, regardless of how close you think you and he have become.

This is how dating is for many people now. There is a lot of ambiguous “hanging out” with groups and casual plans. A lot of men are just in no rush to commit. They’re not locking themselves into anything too quickly because a) they don’t want to and b) they don’t have to. So if you want to see if this has potential, you’re going to have to suck it up for a bit longer.  If your goal is to “get to know him” you can achieve that regardless of how the time together is spent. That’s an excuse you’re using to try and get him to spend more alone time with you.  I’d be far more suspicious of a man who was eager to commit and readily available right away than one who dragged his feet a bit.

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52 Responses to “Has Hanging Out Replaced Actual Dating?”

  1. Adrienne Says:

    I don’t get the sense that this is about whether she slept with him on the second date or later. He just seems that he’s really more into hanging out with his friends than he is with her. If he wanted to spend more quailty time with her, he would initiate it. That’s the reality of it.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 31 Thumb down 1

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      I didn’t say that that had anything to do with it. I clearly separated that issue out from my answer to her letter.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 6

  2. AnnieNonymous Says:

    It sounds like the guy always gets busy on weekends. She should either try to arrange dinners with him during the week or ask if she can come out for the dinner with his friends, provided they’re friends she’s already met.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 10

  3. anna Says:

    why more suspicious of a guy who seemed eager to commit?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

    • meh Says:

      because it means he has no options. it means he is desperate. it means he is settling for anyone. it means he has no life. it means he is a loser.

      it does not mean that he can tell you make a good match together. it does not mean that he knows a good thing when he sees it. it does not mean that he is organized enough to schedule his free time. it does not mean that he is relationship minded.

      so date unavailable men. men who will see you after they’ve had dinner with their bros. men who cancel on you. men who do not prioritize you. men who have options. men who don’t care if they see you or not because they can replace you. men who don’t care about you. exciting men who provide you with drama.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 6

      • M Says:

        Then, after you’ve h ad enough of dating men who treat you like crap because you are just one of many options, you can go back to a guy who doesnt mind committing (to the right girl).

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

        • meh Says:

          except you won’t find one of those guys because they will have been burnt too many times & have now figured out that commiting to a woman is a losing proposition. now every man is a jerk.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3

  4. coffeestop Says:

    I suppose if a man told me he was immature and that this friends were more of a priority and that bothered me enough I might just assume he actually meant what he said. She wants to be a priority because she wants a long term relationship with this guy and his actions suggest that is not what he wants. He is the type who will propel himself into a panic marriage once enough of his friends pair off in significant numbers and he is not at that stage now. There is not a thing she can do to make him “more interested”. He likes hanging with the guys and there is nothing wrong with that. And if she did just knock him out he would be canceling on them. We have all used the old “friends are in town” excuse to wriggle out of a date when we did not want to hurt another’s feelings.

    She told him she wanted him to change his behavior and he did not. Actually if a man wanted me to make huge alterations in my social habits after two months, I might balk at that. He sounds content with his life as is and maybe she is not?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  5. John Says:

    Just curious if the OP has ever planned and paid for any of their dates. If she hasn’t, that could be a major reason why she has been relegated to just hanging out with him and his friends.

    All the talk about “its difficult for him to make her a priority” or the fact that he finds it “scary his friends are getting married” is all probably a smokescreen. He doesn’t want to come off as cheap by asking you to open your wallet for a change. So instead, he comes up with these other reasons as a way to keep you somewhat on the hook without having to finance your meals and entertainment.

    That’s probably the real reason why he took her on 4 or 5 “real dates” and then those dates came to a screeching halt. He had enough of the freeloading.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 6

    • Chester Says:

      Great point!
      I didn’t hear her offer to make him a quiet dinner at her place either.
      It sounds like she is in receive-only mode.
      Dinners can be quite pricey in NYC and if the woman never reciprocates, and expects to be wined and dined forever by this guy, I can see why he is not too eager. She is only concerned about how many dinners he buys her! Who wants to commit to that?

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 6

    • LaMotta Says:

      That’s not my read of this at all.

      There are plenty of non-monetary outlay dates he could have done, if he wanted to get together with her without his friends around. How about dinner and a movie at his apartment? Remember they were already sleeping together, so this wouldn’t be awkward.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1

    • Chester Says:

      LaMotta, I see your point to some degree. However, why does HE have to plan EVERYTHING for her? Why are you putting the onus on him? As some point in time, the woman usually plans and invites the guy to activities she likes; I don’t see her doing this. She can invite him to her place. He is fine the way things are. If she wants wants to do something different that what they are doing, she can plan something and invite him. Instead, she has not done anything to contribute to the relationship except complain.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  6. Jesse Says:

    I think a date should always be a two way street, if the other person is not interested to get to know each other, maybe it’s time to move on. Or just have some casual sex as you’re on it if you’re in to that. But other than that everybody should stick to their own thoughts and don’t care too much about other opinions. Just go for someone you like, If you don’t have him or her yet, you also have nothing to lose!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

  7. LostSailor Says:

    A slightly different take on this guy’s behavior. It’s quite possible he’s not being disingenuous when he admits to being slightly immature and that’s it’s “scary” that his friends are all starting to get married. That actually sounds like honesty to me, not a ruse. Not all guys are that calculating.

    He’s been hanging out with this group of friends for 10 years and it seems like there’s a familiar pattern on the weekends: dinner and then out to the bars. And he’s starting to see that familiar pattern breaking down as, one at a time, these friends are settling into married relationships. It’s like not knowing when it’s time to leave the party. And he has apparently been trying to include the OP or split the difference in meeting up with her after dinner with friends. One question I have is when the OP got together with him and his friends, were other girlfriends included as well? That’s also a pattern I’ve seen countless times. If GFs are there, then the OP might want to consider trying to become part of the group.

    I do agree with Moxie that the OP hasn’t really spent all that much time with the guy, especially compared to how long he’s known his friends. But if a relationship is to move forward, people have to start some memories or bonding with just the two of them. But fancy dinners probably aren’t the way to go. If the OP is really interested in more, she should aim to work with his familiar weekend patterns.

    I also agree with John that the OP should suggest “date” suggestions of her own, but I wouldn’t try to match expensive dinners. If OP wants some alone time with him that’s not in bed, why not plan some weekend day-time activities. Lunch in the park, a baseball game, a bike ride on Governor’s Island (opens next weekend, and the ferry’s free), one of the myriad street festivals.

    If he balks and only wants to spring for the occasional dinner and usually meet up at a bar and then home for the frisky time, then, yeah, he’s probably only in it for the sex.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1

    • LaMotta Says:

      I dunno, there’s a lot of speculation here.

      I would advise the OP to pull back and let him make the next affirmative move, if any. If he wants to salvage this and change his priorities, he will.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

      • Eliza Says:

        I agree–make time for those who count…and for those who make time for you. Make those people a priority–who have in fact made you a priority. Every man and woman deserves that. When a guy sincerely enjoys a woman’s company, he actually integrate her into his life, and includes her in most things, not necessarily every event, like a guy’s night out obviously. But he could once in a while invite you to dinner with his friends. Unless there is some hidden agenda. And why sell yourself short–at a consistent means to sex, and that’s all? Worthwile relationships that are two-way streets ARE work to some degree–and those that stand the test of time, are worth it too. It seems this guy is too immature or simply not interested to the degree that the OP is.

        Why twist any man’s arm to be with you. Move on. You can do better than him.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3

        • hammersandnails Says:

          You can do better than him.

          ehh… that remains to be seen. I can never understand why women love telling each other such ridiculous platitudes.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 4

          • Eliza Says:

            Not ridiculous. Any man or woman can do better than to be with someone who puts them last. Did I say she can meet someone better looking? More successful? No, by “better” I meant-her circumstances can be much better by focusing on a man that DOES want a relationship with a woman, and can part ways with his bromances, yet maintain his independence while still building a connection with a woman. By better I meant, a man capable of being “mature” enough to be in a monogymous situation…and not calling her after hours – for a quick bang.
            Why take the scraps and leftovers. Unless the woman is desperate. It’s obvious the OP and this guy she is trying to bait and hook are on two different mindsets.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

          • Chester Says:

            Eliza, you can try to redefine the definition of “better” here all you want. But better means better.

            Most of the women here aren’t even trying to see the guy’s perspective. …and are very quick to jump on guys who offer it. It seems like many of the women here are projecting their own bitterness of men onto this situation… and assuming the worst in men.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

    • AnnieNonymous Says:

      I agree with you. It’s a variation on my stance on dating workaholics: if a guy is telling the truth about his schedule being busy or inconvenient, the woman has to decide if she’s okay with not having first dibs on his weekends.

      I think another point of consideration is that the guy might have thought things were going well and that it was a good time to ease out of “best behavior” mode and just let her join his normal social life. Getting drinks after dinner means that they’re meeting up in the 8-10 pm range, which doesn’t place her in booty call or second place territory. Based on the email, it sounds like the guy didn’t think anything was wrong until the OP started panicking.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

    • LostSailor Says:

      Just wanted to add that, at some point, every “dating” relationship turns into “hanging out.” That’s essentially what moving from “dating” to a relationship means.

      There was a group like this that became regulars at my local pub back in the early 2000s. Most of them, certainly the guys, had all gone to the same university before relocating to NYC. They’d usually all end up at the pub around 10 or 11pm on Fridays and Saturdays after other activities (dates, dinners either together or with others) and stay for a couple of hours (or more). And the guys who didn’t already have regular girlfriends would introduce women they were dating and from what I observed, if they didn’t integrate into the group, they didn’t last long. They’re all married now, moved away, and are raising families, but still stop in whenever they are in town.

      It’s not unreasonable to expect to have one-on-one activities and even formal “dates” once in a while, but this guy seems to be involved in a strong group dynamic with his friends and it may be unreasonable to try to tear his away from that. If the OP can’t handle this type of relationship, then there’s probably not much to be gained here. But if she can successfully introduce other activities and alone time with this guy, why not try to also integrate with his friends?

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

      • AnnieNonymous Says:

        This isn’t the first time a woman has written to this site about a relationship that she thought was cooling down, when in reality she was the one who couldn’t recognize the trajectory of a normal, healthy relationship.

        Maybe Moxie should write about this phenomenon.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  8. D. Says:

    From the sound of it, she’s making him a priority and he’s not making her a priority. Regardless of whether it’s reasonable or not, she wants more and he’s not giving it.

    That leaves her with two choices, basically.

    1.) Accept that the situation is what it is for now and stick it out.

    2.) Bail.

    If she’s willing to put up with this behavior to see if things will change, ok, stick it out. I wouldn’t EXPECT it to change, though. This guy’s been pretty up front with how he is living his life and how he wants to live his life.

    Most telling is the fact that she had this frank discussion with him, he said “Ok, I’ll change”, made a feint towards doing so, and then completely reverted to past behavior by ditching her for his friends. Rescheduling, sure, but for the very reason that prompted the whole “This isn’t working for me” situation.

    To me, it sounds like the guy is telling her everything she needs to know. This is who he is, at least for the foreseeable future. If she’s cool with that, great! Game on! If not, time for her to call it off.

    One other note: the thing with the “This isn’t working for me/isn’t what I want” conversation is that you have to go into it with the primary goal of just saying how you feel, and NOT with the primary goal of “And then they’ll change when they hear what I say.” You’ve got to go in with the attitude of, if they change, I’ll stay and if not, I’ll leave.

    This guy’s not likely to change any time soon. Maybe down the road a pace, say, another two months, six months, a year, whatever. But not tomorrow. So, if the OP can accept that, then great. Stick it out, have fun, go on about your business. If not, then I’d say it’s time to call it because this guy likes his life how it is right now, and isn’t feeling any really compelling reason to change that.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

    • hammersandnails Says:

      Most telling is the fact that she had this frank discussion with him, he said “Ok, I’ll change”, made a feint towards doing so, and then completely reverted to past behavior by ditching her for his friends. Rescheduling, sure, but for the very reason that prompted the whole “This isn’t working for me” situation.

      I don’t disagree, but keep in mind that many men respond poorly to demands and drama. Bringing both so early in the relationship would lessen my attraction significantly.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3

      • D. Says:

        Sure, but at the same time…it’s what she wants. I’m not judging the legitimacy of that desire, only that if she wants ABC, and he’s not giving it, saying “I’d really like ABC. Can you do that?” is perfectly fine. Likewise, it’s perfectly fine for him to say “Nope. No can do.” And then it’s decision time for her.

        I agree that it’s a bit early to be at a point where you’re making demands, but there’s a difference between making a demand/issuing an ultimatum, and expressing what it is you want. Saying “Take me to fancy restaurants or we’re through!” is one thing. Saying “I’d really like it if we could spend more time together, just us, instead of in a group” is something else.

        I don’t think it’s “too soon” to want to spend time with the guy on their own. I think that’s less an issue about the timing of this stuff and more an issue about different styles of dating. Moxie sort of addressed the timing thing as a red herring. “But it’s been TWO MONTHS!” Well, no, it’s been more like two full days, really. Maybe one and a half. But the timeline here isn’t the point.

        The real issue, from the sound of it is that these two have very different styles of dating, and they don’t match up. It sounds like she want’s something a little smaller-scale and more intimate. I don’t think that’s unreasonable at least as a setting within which to date. It’s more just a matter of preference. Some other girl might be THRILLED that he feels comfortable enough to bring her around with the guys, and might find that setting a terrific date, and would feel that the relationship is progressing perfectly. Hell, I rarely bring a woman I’m seeing around my friends until I get a sense it’s getting serious. My preference is to spend time with her just the two of us, and only gradually phase in the friends. That’s just my style. I have friends who’d bring their dates around to the group after only 3 dates.

        What I will say is that it’s pretty early on in the relationship to be hanging in with the hopes that he’ll change his ways, particularly when he’s indicated he won’t. If she isn’t satisfied with the way things are now, then why bother? What’s so wonderful and special about this guy that makes it worth being in an unsatisfying relationship, particularly when she’s 25, and living in one of the largest dating pools on the planet? Why even chase the drama at this point? She asked if they could do things differently, he said “Okey dokey,” then backslid. At that point, why bother sticking it out if you’re unhappy with how things are?

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

        • hammersandnails Says:

          I fully agree. I just wanted to point out that every single guy knows exactly what “I didn’t see a point in continuing this if…” means. It’s a threat, an ultimatum, and a demand. “I’d really like ABC. Can you do that?” would be fine, but thats not what she said.

          It’s also drama queenish and vaguely insulting. Seriously, I understand she’s feeling hurt here and that’s why she’s lashing out but that’s one of those phrases to completely remove from the intelligent woman’s dating vocabulary. If the only “point” in dating me is that I take you out to your idea of romantic activities, planned, payed for, and scheduled by me, then there certainly isn’t any “point” in me still having your number. Someone is probably going to chime in an say “that’s not what she meant!” but seriously, think about it. If a man said “if you aren’t going to blow me, there just isn’t any point in us seeing each other any more” how would that go over? Sure maybe he’s just saying that that’s something that’s a deal breaker for him, just about every women would see nothing but the insult there.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

  9. Deborah Says:

    no one thinks they have to get married anymore. Actually mostly men, because women have sex with them, and be their friend and mommy them and live with them too etc…so why would they want to legally bind with anyone if they can have a wife without that, and then cut free too when he gets bored? Wow women’s lib has created a much worse “man’s world”. Thanks a lot you whores (women with compromised values) out there! good going.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 19

    • mindstar Says:

      In general these days around 50% of marriages end in divorce. So from a single man’s perspective what’s the benefit in getting married if there is a 50-50 chance that iin a few years she’s going to divorce me, take our kids halfway across the country because she wants “to find herself”, take half my property and have me pay child support for kids I might never get to see. While somewhat broadly painted this is a good summary of the attitudes toward marriage held by many of the 20 and 30 something men I’ve worked with. A lot of them are children of divorce so that certainly colors their perspective but they do have some points.

      As for the OP Moxie called it when she pointed out the actual small amount of time they’ve spent together and the OP’s own similar behavior. She has had options to get to know the guy better but her need for more one and one time (perhaps so she can brag to her girlfriends that he leaves his friends of 10 years by the wayside to spend time with her?) appears to be something this guy is not willing to do. Perhaps, as others have alluded to, because she has not stepped up and planned or paid for a solo date with him or because he simply prefers an informal group setting to get to know her and see how she interacts with his friends.

      If she appears standoffish or simply looks down on having beers with his college friends then in his mind she may not be a long term relationship prospect. After all he’s known them a lot longer than he’s known her and could be trying to see how she fits in with his circle.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

      • Deborah Says:

        Divorce won’t happen with me, so is that your fear that I might divorce you, or your lame excuse to use women? because I don’t believe in divorce, and I’m also against anyone who try’s to force it on someone else because they are actually putting that person into a position to be an adulterer. So, shut up about your weak argument on divorce. the benefit is, if you live a godly life, you are acceptable to be a part of his Kingdom when his son establishes it on this earth, and have eternal life. that’s what the benefit of living morally is. Are you from another planet? Because this one actually happens to belong to God where he expects us to do things his way.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5

        • Deborah Says:

          I would say, you are observing that 50% of people divorce, from wherever you got that statistic, and however good it is, but has it occured to you that, you don’t have to pay attention to what other people are doing, YOU can do the right thing? Or are you some powerless person unable to stand your ground? I would suggest you are trying, like many men, to convince me and other women that it’s hopeless to hold on to moral standards, you debate with the ignorance method where you pretend you never heard of these morals, so therefore…hoping to break down women to use them for sex.
          You’re reasoning is weak. I’m standing my ground. It’s not a control war here either, I’m very serious about this for my own peace of mind. I can’t do it any other way. Do you know that you don’t have to allow society to chose things for you! I don’t. I believe something so I’m keeping it. About my comment on whores…I am using a technical term. I was brought up with morals and the bible so I tend to use middle English. The term whore may be derogatory, but was not spoken with ill will. A Whore is a woman with compromised values. You see it throughout the bible. Why are people painting my words with a tone that doesn’t exist? I’m saying those women are in fact, whores. I could change it if you need it, and say: they are women with compromised values who are no longer wholesome and chaste who support that and think it’s beneficial to them, but then complain why men don’t see them as marriage material. ridiculous logic! Because it’s not even informal logic, it’s not philosophical logic, not syllogistic logic, it’s not mathematical logic, it’s not predicate logic. It’s no form of logic at all. It’s just an absence of critical thinking altogether! Here’s something else: women have extremely strong legs, far stronger than men can usually build their arms. For example, I’m fit and I can leg press 300 kg. Most men cannot do this! We have such strong legs that, we could kill someone with them. We are stronger than men, overall. Yet women feel feeble and like they are afraid of men.I wonder why women are not going about intimidating men with their strength, and enforcing the way they need to be treated! After all, most women can probably bend press at least 250 kg below the waist, and men’s weakest area is within that range that can’t even take a small tap and he’s down. I’m pretty sure not only do men have the weaker argument on this subject, but they also are the weaker sex and should quit attempting to bully us to be used before they get us angry. :)

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6

          • Deborah Says:

            I guess the main reason you might think there is ill will behind that statement is because whores are causing a situation that is getting to be unresolvable. they are negative, and merely talking about them can make it appear like I’m the negative person. Really I’m just identifying them for who they are. They are, in fact, by the entire sense of the word: whores. I can’t call them chaste, or godly, or spiritual or wholesome because that is not the lifestyle they lead. They are being whores, and they are very conscious of it. I don’t know why they think that’s alright since it’s very inconsiderate, and also causing them pain for themselves, but I’m not even terribly concerned about how it hurts them. the fact is, it’s inconsiderate. It’s creating an environment where now the women who want to be chaste and who are worthy of a loving relationship, the good women, have to deal with men who expect us ALL to be whores! So, promoting whorish lifestyles, you are ruining it both for yourself and me too. I don’t care what it does to you, but it’s affecting me, so I’m actually now making a stand against it. The women are very much to blame for being this way, they know very well that if they offer sex, men will take it! It doesn’t ensure a relationship. Didn’t your mom tell you this when you were a little girl? I was told this when I was around 12 or 13, that men will say or do anything to get you to have sex with them, including tell you they love you. But then they will mostly just use you and then leave you. If you want love, your chances of getting it do not improve, in fact they diminish if you offer sex without any kind of commitment in advance. It should be marriage, but even a decent commitment at the very least! engagement or “something”. like…why are women being so stupid? If I use the word whore, it might help them put things into perspective a little, and kick them in the butt for being so stupid. WAKE UP. men love you being stupid…this is a laugh to them, you know that. they are getting the benefit from start to finish, and all YOU are getting is, used, maybe diseased, and getting old without a husband.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      ral

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 1

    • CoolDude Says:

      “Thanks a lot you whores (women with compromised values) out there! good going.”

      Wow, that is one bitter sounding comment (and an incorrect one). I think the question you really should be asking is “how come no one wants to marry ME?” Men propose and get married all the time (just check your Facebook feed if you’re between the ages of 24-35). Not everyone is entitled to a happy ending and if you’re one of those girls who guys want to have sex with and date but not marry, there’s probably something lacking about you.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

      • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

        I think it’s clear that Deborah has a multitude of challenges that make dating difficult for her. Let’s all just skip past her comments from here on out, please.

        Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1

        • CoolDude Says:

          Ah, you know what, I forgot her back story. You’re correct.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

        • Deborah Says:

          Insult me if you like, but my life is problem free if you want to call that a challenge. when you have a perfect life, post your comment!

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6

          • Deborah Says:

            also I might also think the people deleting my strong argument (because you called it a debate) were using a method where you change the topic when you find that the other person’s premise is solid and very strong, so it’s called “the red herring fallacy”. A red herring fallacy is a purposeful change in topic to distract from the original topic. So if we have two people debating a particular statement one might change the topic seemingly to promote discussion but in fact it is a ploy to change the topic. the original topic is about dating being too casual. This means, women are hanging out with men, and allowing it to become so casual that they allow themselves to be used too. I was stating that a whore “a woman with compromised values” should revise her ways to be more wholesome and chaste so that she can feel happier, do what is moral in the eyes of God (hence having a clear conscience) and stick to her guns (hold on to her standards). Why give away your sex to someone who is not committed to you? Doesn’t it hurt you? In most cases it does not the only type of woman it does not hurt is a woman with damage to her frontal cortex (judgement center of her brain). Women with this kind of brain damage do risky and often crazy things without any realization of the consequences. But the rest of us have judgement, and should use it wisely.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3

            • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

              r

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

              • Deborah Says:

                here is another use of a red herring. because my argument is strong. haha, you lose.

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4

            • Deborah Says:

              **excuse me, typos:

              In most cases it does. The only type of woman it does not hurt is a woman with damage to her frontal cortex (judgement center of her brain). Women with this kind of brain damage do risky and often crazy things without any realization of the consequences. But the rest of us have judgement, and should use it wisely.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4

            • Deborah Says:

              **excuse me, my typos:

              In most cases it does. The only type of woman it does not hurt is a woman with damage to her frontal cortex (judgement center of her brain). Women with this kind of brain damage do risky and often crazy things without any realization of the consequences. But the rest of us have judgement, and should use it wisely.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5

          • CoolDude Says:

            “Insult me if you like, but my life is problem free”

            Yikes.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  10. hammersandnails Says:

    So aside from showing up and laying down, what as the OP contributed to this relationship? She sounds a lot more interested in having her idea of a relationship and boyfriend than she seems interested in this actual guy. Guys can tell when you are a lot more interested in how many times you can say “boyfriend” in a photo caption on facebook than our happiness.

    He’s the kind of guy that likes hanging out in groups and going to bars. This is neither good nor bad. For another person that might be a great fit. He’s not excluding you or ignoring you. You didn’t even give one reason why you hanging out with him and his friends is bad. You just have an idea about how things are supposed to be. That’s fine and that’s your right. Why exactly is how you want to do things better than the way he wants to do things? If you have incompatible lifestyles, move on, but stop acting like your way is the right way. I’ve had some great nights hanging out with a girl and her friends. There is nothing intrinsically better about some candlelight cliche.

    He was trying to include you in his life, and you, the girl he’s seen less than 8 times and is already causing drama asked him to choose between the life he’s knows and likes and is comfortable with and doing what he doesn’t want to do just to appease your sense of entitlement.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

  11. meh Says:

    so much terrible advice on this one. if you are going to be easy, then bad boys will use you for sex & not take you seriously. that is never going to change. never. no matter how much feminists insist that things have changed. that’s what’s going on with this woman.

    sorry but sex always takes priority over my male friends. this girl is not a priority because he doesn’t have to make her one in order to have sex with her. at age 25 sex on the 2nd date is too soon if you want to be taken seriously as relationship material. and agreeing to the late night booty cals doesn’t help.

    but he’s scuh a bad boy that she loves it. he is using lines to string her along. he says: all my friends are getting married, i should grow up too. translation: stick around honey, i might marry you. it’s a lie & girls fall for it because they love the drama & excitement of being treated poorly.

    “I’d be far more suspicious of a man who was eager to commit and readily available right away than one who dragged his feet a bit.” because that guy is not a bad boy who will treat you poorly.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 9

    • CoolDude Says:

      Time to drop this cliche. If a guy likes you, doesn’t matter if you have sex on the 1st or 6th date. He’ll want to be around you, introduce you to his friends, etc. If he DOESN’T like you but likes you enough to have sex with you then, yes, he’ll keep you around.

      Also, why does no one point out that women do this too? They keep some loose connections just for the option of sex with a familiar partner.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 3

      • CoolDude Says:

        If you gave this post a thumbs down, can you explain your reasoning? Really, I’m dying to know.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4

        • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

          It’s an anonymous ratings system for a reason. I really can’t stand when people get bent because someone clicked a little red thumb. Not everybody agrees with you. You’ll be okay.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

          • CoolDude Says:

            I’d hardly say I’m “bent”, I’m just really interested in hearing a counter-argument.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4

        • meh Says:

          whoever gave me the thumbs up probably gave you the thumbs down. maybe it was a woman who has experienced this firsthand & knows i’m just being honest or maybe it was another guy who knows he downgrades girls he bangs on the 1st date. or maybe someone realized that you just agreed with me by saying that “women do this too” after you said it’s a cliche.

          you haven’t married any of the girls you’ve banged on the 1st date & pretending that you might, is dishonest. just like the guy in the original letter.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5

          • hammersandnails Says:

            I’ve certainly had a 3 year relationship after 1st date sex.

            It’s actually girls that I catch playing your game that I downgrade/cut.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

          • LostSailor Says:

            you haven’t married any of the girls you’ve banged on the 1st date & pretending that you might, is dishonest.

            Um, I did. At least one. Was married 18 years.

            And I’ve never “downgraded” anyone I’ve banged just for having sex with me, after all, it shows discernment and taste on their part. If a man has “downgraded” a woman, believe me, it happened long before the sex happened. Unless she was spectacularly bad at it…

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

          • CoolDude Says:

            “you haven’t married any of the girls you’ve banged on the 1st date & pretending that you might, is dishonest. just like the guy in the original letter.”

            Not dishonest at all. The girl I do marry will, however, NOT be the girl who does the “well, I don’t want to sleep with him until x date because that’s my rule.”

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

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